Re: Oldest Writing? Gobekli Tepe?
Yusuf B Gursey
wrote:
> On Oct 11, 7:07 pm, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 2:33 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 11, 2:08 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 10, 9:10 pm, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 9, 5:37 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 9, 2:36 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Ran across photos of a T-shaped stele from the Gobekli Tepe site in
> > > > > > > Turkey, with a band of symbols around it. Stele is carved in low
> > > > > > > relief, and has been dated to 11,500 BC.
>
> > > > > > > There is obvious sign repetition, looks like horizontal orientation,
> > > > > > > too.
>
> > > > > > > Comments?
>
> > > > > > >http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1769&category=Science
>
> > > > > > Outdoor cave paintings? Similar themes and symbols, birth of the adman.
>
> > > > > What cave paintings have similar symbols? Do you have a link?
>
> > > > > I found a similar sign to the U-shaped Gobekli Tepe glyph in the
> > > > > necklace of the Iberian Phonecian bust Lady of Guardamar, a U-shaped
> > > > > element in the lowest row, center.
>
> > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_Guardamar
>
> > > > > Since the Iberian Phonecian Lady of Elche had amphorae on her
> > > > > necklace, the U-shaped element could represent a jar.
>
> > > > > I know Gobekli Tepe is much older than the Phonecian works I mention,
> > > > > but there is a possible relationship; Phonecians were related to
> > > > > cultures in Syria, and the Gobekli site is not far from Syria.
>
> > > > Gobekli Tepe is an obvious Natufian site, and has the same sort of
> > > > cultural complex typical of other Natufian sites from Israel, Syria
> > > > and Lebanon. Natufian sites typically have microliths which were set
> > > > into sickle blades and used for harvesting grass or grain. The
> > > > Natufians hunted gazelles, cattle, boar, ducks and other animals,
> > > > which were often portrayed in their art, along with vultures,
> > > > scorpions, foxes, lions and asses. They did not have pottery and made
> > > > do with stone jars. Their funeral customs included head removal and
> > > > exposure of the headless bodies, and this exposure is shown in
> > > > contemporary murals from other sites in Turkey.
>
> > > > The thing that boggles the mind is the idea that the Natufians had
> > > > writing. I think Gobekli Tepe script should be compared to proto-
> > > > Canaanitic script to see if there are any correspondences.
>
> > > there's a resident eccentric at sci.lang that sees all sorts of
> > > "writing" at Göbekli Tepe, but the linguists there, including an
> > > expert on scripts, don't take him seriously.
>
> > I don't take him seriously either, but I'm not sure why the abstract
> > pictograms from Gobekli Tepe are being dismissed as non-writing.
>
> > This seems every bit as idiotic as dismissing Indus script as non-
> > writing.
>
> > Is everyone but me assuming that the hunter-gatherers at Gobekli Tepe
> > were illiterate because a) the symbols are more than 10,000 years old,
> > and b) they were made by pre-agricultural people?
>
> Question: Is there a source online for the actual number, format and
> sequences for this collection of signs? I did a quick run on "Gobekli
> Tepe script" and "signs" and got nothing except some fuzzy pictures of
> rocks.
I'm crossposting to sci.lang . I'm sure Franz will give you all the
references you need.
Peter T. Daniels
> references you need.-
Gobekli Tepe pictograms are "writing" only under the modern
redefinition of "writing" as any sort of graphic communication.
The redefinition is pointless, because once you've perverted the word
"writing" that way, you'll just have to come up with some other word
to refer to a system of graphic communication that notates a
_language_ in sufficient detail that the reader knows exactly what the
writer intended to write.
If pictograms are ideographic, then it can't even be identified what
language the draw-er was thinking in, let alone _exactly_ what they
were communicating.
Presumably the redefinition happened so that nonliterate cultures
wouldn't "feel bad" about not having thought up this wonderful thing
"writing" on their own.
S. M. Sullivan
You do NOT know that the Gobekli Tepe signs were ideograms. They could
just as easily be logosyllabic signs or even part of an abjad wrting
system.
Peter T. Daniels
> system.-
Yeah? How many different ones are there in all?
Oh, that's right, you don't bother determining the inventory of signs
before you start assigning arbitrary readings to them.
I do NOT know that they are ideograms. All I KNOW is that some of them
are pictograms. Maybe they're just decoration.
S. M. Sullivan
Decorative bands have symmetry and sign repetition as their salient
traits. The arrangement of the signs on the fox stele band has some
obvious sign repetition but no symmetry.
How can you ask how many different Gobekli Tepe signs there are
knowing that the site is still being excavated?
I've got a total of 3 photos showing different symbols engraved on
stone from that site. So there is no inventory of signs, and won't be
til the German archeologists excavating that site publish their
findings.
Peter T. Daniels
Ok, so S. M. "cinnamon cat" Sullivan gets to decree that if something
isn't symmetrical, then it isn't decorative.
I guess that leaves out a whole lot of 20th-century architecture.
> How can you ask how many different Gobekli Tepe signs there are
> knowing that the site is still being excavated?
> I've got a total of 3 photos showing different symbols engraved on
> stone from that site. So there is no inventory of signs, and won't be
> til the German archeologists excavating that site publish their
> findings.-
How do you get from "obvious sign repetition" to "it might be
logograms" or "it might be an abjad"?
S. M. Sullivan
> On Oct 12, 6:23 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm crossposting to sci.lang . I'm sure Franz will give you all the
> > references you need.
>
> the Göbekli Tepe to sci.archaeology in 1998 but
> was met with scepticism if not sheer disbelief.
> Meanwhile I went a lot further in sci.lang, where
> I started what I call a Magdalenian experiment,
> reconstructing the language of Lascaux, very
> exciting for me, a nuisance to others, but bold new
> ideas and hypotheses are required in science.
> Richard Fester once drew a map of AQC or ACQ
> names in the Guyenne, and said this word must
> name places of water. There are plenty of villages
> whose names end on -ac, like Rouffignac, Cognac,
> and so on, so I postulated simpler AC as expanse
> of land with water. Inverse CA would then mean sky,
> present in Old Latin caelum 'sky'. And then I read
> the hieroglyph of the lying H on the Göbekli Tepe
> as AC CA
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/acca.GIF
> http://www.seshat.ch/home.tablets.GIF
>
> The lower bar of the lying H represents the earth AC
> and the upper bar the sky CA and the slim vertical bar
> the exchanges between them, prayers for rain and the
> smoke of sacrificial fires imploring rain symbolized
> by snakes heading upward, and falling rain rewarding
> the prayers and sacrifices symbolized by snakes
> heading downward. AC CA may be translated as:
> where earth AC and sky CA are meeting. The ancient
> Egyptians mentioned a Syrian province by the name
> of aqa. As AC CA is related to water - snakes being
> the most frequent symbols and having to do with water
> - a derivative of this compound might have yielded
> Latin aqua 'water'. Further derivatives are akka, the
> Indo-European earth goddess, a stammered name
> according to Julius Pokorny, a meaningful name in
> my opinion, and German Acker 'field', more precisely:
> an expanse of land AC under the sky CA. The inverse
> form CA AC would account for Greek Gaia, equivalent
> of akka. My interpretation of the Göbekli Tepe began
> with a lunisolar calendar: a year has 12 months of 30
> days, plus 5 and occasionally 6 more days (three days
> of midsummer, two and occasionally three days of
> midwinter), while 63 continuous periods of 30 days
> are 1,890 days and correspond to 64 lunations or
> synodic months, mistake less than half a minute
> per lunation or half a day in a lifetime. Here is an
> intricate version of the Göbekli Tepe calendar
> in form of a double loop:
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/goebekli.GIF
>
> A unique sculpture is the big limestone ring
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/tablets.GIF
>
> which represents the sky god visualized by the
> hollow of the ring, a round head or face with smaller
> hollows for the ears, an image consisting of nothing
> else than air and light which I read as AAR RAA NOS,
> mind NOS of the one composed of air AAR and light
> RAA, a god who became Greek Ouranos and Sanskrit
> Varuna. The lying H can be read as AC CA. Now there
> is also a standing H, on one pillar in a more elaborate
> form with an oval for the slim horizontal bar, which
> I interpret as talking mouth of the priestess of PIR GID
> speaking between the central pillars of temple D,
> in my opinion the temple of creation (plenty of animals
> on the 11,600 years old pillars of this temple). Below
> is a ring in a bowl. I read the bowl as the fur of BIR GID,
> and the ring as sign of BRI GID, the ring itself as earth
> AC and the hollow inside the ring as sky CA. The
> standing H has the phonetic value )OG or LOG,
> the bowl or fur (cosmic fur of BIR GID) has the phonetic
> value BIR, and the ring has the phonetic value AC CA,
> together )OG BIR AC CA or LOG BIR AC CA, which
> may well be the first version of Genesis 1:1
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/gt01.GIF
>
> This inscription is found on the right (eastern) central
> pillar of the big temple D, the female pillar according
> to Klaus Schmidt, excavator of the Göbekli Tepe,
> while a peculiar bucranium is found on the male
> central pillar on the left (western) side. This hieroglyph
> combines the sky god AAR RAA NOS and the hot
> blooded half-god GIS BAL CA MmOS and the other
> half-god AD DA MAN. Explaining these names would
> take me too long, so you can read my reconstruction
> of the creation myth of the Göbekli Tepe here
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux3.htm
>
> At the end of the page lascaux4, by the way, is my recent
> work, with my location of the Indo-European homeland,
> and the civilization of REO Rhea Rheia, and more about
> her father AAR RAA NOS Ouranos. For the hierogplyphs
> on the Göbekli Tepe you have to consult the book by
> Klaus Schmidt, the paperback may still be on sale,
> about 24 Swiss francs, that will be some 18 Euro,
> text in German, way over one hundred illustrations
> in English. Impressions of the Göbekli Tepe are found
> via Youtube. You can also google for göbekli tepe
> in the Images sector. And if you have a serious interest
> in these signs or ideograms or hieroglyphs you may
> discuss with me, here in this thread.
This post is full of painfully wrong etymology.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Actually the narrow face looks quite symmetrical, including the hands
above. (Note the narrow faces of the steles facing inward to the
"court".) Unfortunately we can't see what's on the far side.
pauljk
"S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:ecf9bba1-ef3e-4a6b...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 13, 12:47 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>> On Oct 12, 6:23 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > I'm crossposting to sci.lang . I'm sure Franz will give you all the
>> > references you need.
>>
>> Thank you for the invitation. I began posting about
>> was met with scepticism if not sheer disbelief.
>> Meanwhile I went a lot further in sci.lang, where
>> I started what I call a Magdalenian experiment,
>> reconstructing the language of Lascaux, very
>> exciting for me, a nuisance to others, but bold new
>> ideas and hypotheses are required in science.
>> Richard Fester once drew a map of AQC or ACQ
>> names in the Guyenne, and said this word must
>> name places of water. There are plenty of villages
>> whose names end on -ac, like Rouffignac, Cognac,
>> and so on, so I postulated simpler AC as expanse
>> of land with water. Inverse CA would then mean sky,
>> present in Old Latin caelum 'sky'. And then I read
>> as AC CA
>>
>> http://www.seshat.ch/home/acca.GIF
>> http://www.seshat.ch/home.tablets.GIF
>>
>> The lower bar of the lying H represents the earth AC
>> and the upper bar the sky CA and the slim vertical bar
>> the exchanges between them, prayers for rain and the
>> smoke of sacrificial fires imploring rain symbolized
>> by snakes heading upward, and falling rain rewarding
>> the prayers and sacrifices symbolized by snakes
>> heading downward. AC CA may be translated as:
>> where earth AC and sky CA are meeting. The ancient
>> Egyptians mentioned a Syrian province by the name
>> of aqa. As AC CA is related to water - snakes being
>> the most frequent symbols and having to do with water
>> - a derivative of this compound might have yielded
>> Latin aqua 'water'. Further derivatives are akka, the
>> Indo-European earth goddess, a stammered name
>> according to Julius Pokorny, a meaningful name in
>> my opinion, and German Acker 'field', more precisely:
>> an expanse of land AC under the sky CA. The inverse
>> form CA AC would account for Greek Gaia, equivalent
>> with a lunisolar calendar: a year has 12 months of 30
>> days, plus 5 and occasionally 6 more days (three days
>> of midsummer, two and occasionally three days of
>> midwinter), while 63 continuous periods of 30 days
>> are 1,890 days and correspond to 64 lunations or
>> synodic months, mistake less than half a minute
>> per lunation or half a day in a lifetime. Here is an
>> while a peculiar bucranium is found on the male
>> central pillar on the left (western) side. This hieroglyph
>> combines the sky god AAR RAA NOS and the hot
>> blooded half-god GIS BAL CA MmOS and the other
>> half-god AD DA MAN. Explaining these names would
>> take me too long, so you can read my reconstruction
>>
>> http://www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux3.htm
>>
>> At the end of the page lascaux4, by the way, is my recent
>> work, with my location of the Indo-European homeland,
>> and the civilization of REO Rhea Rheia, and more about
>> her father AAR RAA NOS Ouranos. For the hierogplyphs
>> Klaus Schmidt, the paperback may still be on sale,
>> about 24 Swiss francs, that will be some 18 Euro,
>> text in German, way over one hundred illustrations
>> via Youtube. You can also google for g�bekli tepe
>> in the Images sector. And if you have a serious interest
>> in these signs or ideograms or hieroglyphs you may
>> discuss with me, here in this thread.
>
> This post is full of painfully wrong etymology.
But its EBY MOL LGY is perfect.
pjk
S. M. Sullivan
wrote:
The symbols on the engraved horizontal band are not symmetrical, and
that's what I was referring to, not the fox and human arms pictorial.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
You haven't quite got my point. If you look at the narrow face of the
stele, you will see that the symbols on the band on that face are
symmetrical (as far as we can tell from the photo). This symmetry is
repeated in the fingers that are visible on that face above the band
_on both sides_, strongly suggesting that another pair of arms (and
another fox?) appear on the other, invisible, broad face of the stele.
The band of symbols/shapes continues around to the left across a broad
face, and this portion, _if taken in isolation_, is indeed not
symmetrical. What I am suggesting is that a mirror-image sequence may
well appear on the invisible broad face, so that the entire band is,
in fact, symmetrical when viewed from the narrow-face position. My
pointing out the orientation of the steles relative to the whole
enclosure was meant to suggest that the steles were meant to be seen
primarily edge-on.
Jack Linthicum
> On Oct 14, 10:20 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 9:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> > > On Oct 14, 5:59 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > This post is full of painfully wrong etymology.
>
> > > discuss it. I develop a new approach to the language
> > > of Ice Age Eurasia, following Richard Fester but
> > > going way beyond him, a bottom up approach
> > > complementing the top down approach of the
> > > comparative method. What they call Proto-Indo-
> > > European is a version of Late Magdalenian in my
> > > terminology, while Magdalenian is the fully developed
> > > form of the Ice Age language. Every believer in the
> > > present paradigm, in any scientific field, is hurt by
> > > the results of a new paradigm, I can't help that.
> > > As for the list of hieroglyphs you ask for; there was
> > > one, about a dozen signs, published in a Swiss
> > > newspaper, but it's not online. Only a few of many
> > > more temples have been excavated so far, but the
> > > stone pillar temples A and B and C and D are
> > > probably the most important ones, from the earliest
> > > period, around 11 600 BP, the inventory of the signs
> > > on these pillars gives already a fine idea of what
> > > the entire hill was meant for: Klaus Schmidt considers
> > > the Göbekli Tepe an equivalent of the Iranian Towers
> > > of Silence, while I regard it as the Hill of Creation,
> > > relying on my interpretations, and both views go
> > > together if you consider the Egyptian pyramids that
> > > symbolize the Primeval Hill, the hill rising above the
> > > primeval water, and are at the same time funerary
> > > monuments, granting a second life in the beyond.
> > > Now please point out the worst etymology you find
> > > in my post, and I shall discuss it with you.
>
> >http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1769&category=Science
>
> > Is Schoch - in the running text called Schock (!) - still
> > a topic in sci.archaeology? and Graham Hankook ??
> > A word about the leaping foxes that appear on several
> > central pillars. According to my interpretation the fox
> > was a psychopompos, guiding the souls of dead rulers
> > through the labyrinth of the Underworld and back to the
> > surface of the earth and then indicating a leap to the sky,
> > evoking the trajectory of the rising sun by the perfect arcs
> > of their backs. However, only worthy souls were allowed
> > to return from the Underworld and ascend to a heavenly
> > beyond. Consider the beast turned upside down and
> > guarding the ground with bared theeth: there are several
> > of them, and they had the task to hinder the souls of bad
> > leaders from returning and climbing the sky. Which would
> > indicate that a leader of the Göbekli Tepe culture had
> > plenty of power, but was obliged to behave morally.
> > In Egypt you have Anubis, a canide, as psychopompos,
> > while a crocodile devoured an unworthy soul. Now
> > another lesson in my 'painful' etymology. I derive the word
> > fox from DhAG meaning able, a word of very many
> > derivatives including English fox as able guide through
> > the labyrinth of the Underworld. On a charming Celtic
> > stater you can see the sun horse, and below it, peeping
> > out from a hole in the ground, the nose of a fox - the fox
> > that guided the sun horse through the Underworld and
> > back to the surface of the earth. Other derivatives of
> > DhAG are Latin dux 'leader', English duke, German
> > taugen 'be fit, able', (Werk)zeug 'tool', Ding 'thing',
> > and many more. The supreme Celtic god Dagda was
> > the good god in the sense of the able god. Then we
> > have Ugaritic dingir 'god'. While inverse GADh means
> > good in the moral sense. Here you have the theodicy
> > in nuce: the able god and the good god - can God
> > be good and almighty at the same time? There has
> > certainly been many an able leader of the Göbekli Tepe
> > culture, but not all of them were good ones, as the
> > beasts turned upside down are indicating, the most
> > impressive one on a picture on the above page.
>
> Another false assumption I found in sci.archaeology:
> the Göbekli Tepe was not a part of the Natufian!
> It is a different civilization that had some contact
> with the Natufian. I began posting about the Göbekli
> Tepe a dozen years ago in sci.archaeology. What
> a pity that you only now begin to realize the great
> archaeological sensation of our time, and still spread
> painfully wrong information (to quote your own word).
I see about 12 "elements" or "signs" in your illustrations.
|, 0, a downpointing delta with a tail either straight or wavy, that
wavy vertical line, a circle with a diagonal line, a "tree" like
symbol, crosshatching, U, - , an arc, and a series of waves joined.
Some combinations , your H is two verticals and a horizontal, there
are Us with and without a circle, two verticals joined by a circle, a
horizontal line with the arc and U.
Not much of a vocabulary.
JTEM
"S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> You do NOT know that the Gobekli Tepe signs
> were ideograms. They could just as easily be
> logosyllabic signs or even part of an abjad wrting
> system.
Or, as is most likely the case: Pretty pictures.
S. M. Sullivan
> On Oct 14, 5:59 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > This post is full of painfully wrong etymology.
>
Dear Franz,
About Gobekli Tepe: It was not an Indo-European language used there,
for a start. It was Afro-Asiatic. There may very well have been an
Indo-European language in use in Eurasia thousands of years ago, but
not at Gobekli Tepe (unless it was spoken by the people who tried to
smash some of the steles.)
The writing on one seal from Gobekli Tepe reads very clearly 'M-Sh-He'
in characters similar to proto-Canaanitic. This is a name very common
in Afro-Asiatic languages, it is Mose in Egyptian, Musa in Arabic and
Moshe in Hebrew. It means 'son' or 'birth'.
S. M. Sullivan
> On Oct 14, 9:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 5:59 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > This post is full of painfully wrong etymology.
>
I don't have a problem with the idea of fox as psychopompos; there was
a Natufian burial with a puppy, and another with 2 canids (foxes?).
And there are carvings of foxes prominent in what may have been a
memorial site, Gobekli Tepe. You are most likely right about the
Anubis/Gobekli Tepe fox connection; Egypt was a society connected to
other Afro-Asiatic societies by language, myth, religion and DNA.
The actual etymology of duke may come from Sanskrit genitive for
'banner' (dhvaka), describing a leader who bore a flag into battle. I
don't think it is a good idea to connect duke/dux to Ugaritic dingir,
because the Ugaritic word is a loan word from Sumerian, and neither
word is likely to have any connection to duke/dux, Ugaritic being an
Afro-Asiatic tongue and Sumerian being an isolate, or at least very,
very distantly related to any other language.
It looks as though you are much more daring than I when it comes to
identifying words from different language families as cognate. This
sort of thing sets my teeth on edge, it reminds of people who see
things that no one else can see. That is why I called it painfully
wrong.
Sometimes, when you see things no one else can see, you will later be
hailed as a visionary.
But not usually.
S. M. Sullivan
I think you may be right, and that U-shaped symbol was meant to be the
first thing seen by an onlooker. This could indicate that the
inscription (if it is one) begins with the U-shaped sign, and is then
to be read right to left from there, typical for Afro-Asiatic writing.
S. M. Sullivan
> On Oct 14, 10:20 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 9:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> > > On Oct 14, 5:59 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > This post is full of painfully wrong etymology.
>
>
> Another false assumption I found in sci.archaeology:
> the Göbekli Tepe was not a part of the Natufian!
> It is a different civilization that had some contact
> with the Natufian. I began posting about the Göbekli
> Tepe a dozen years ago in sci.archaeology. What
> a pity that you only now begin to realize the great
> archaeological sensation of our time, and still spread
> painfully wrong information (to quote your own word).
Franz, can you explain to me why you are certain that Gobekli Tepe was
built by Indo-European language speakers, when you have admitted the
religion of Gobekli Tepe has parallels with that of Egypt?
S. M. Sullivan
It's a generality, Peter. A decorative band will usually have sign
repetition and be symmetrical, but it is not writing. A band of script
will have sign repetition and will not usually be symmetrical.
And how do you get from 'it's probably decorative', to 'it must be
ideograms'?
Peter T. Daniels
> I think you may be right, and that U-shaped symbol was meant to be the
> first thing seen by an onlooker. This could indicate that the
> inscription (if it is one) begins with the U-shaped sign, and is then
> to be read right to left from there, typical for Afro-Asiatic writing.-
WTF is "Afro-Asiatic writing"?
I see all three separate varieties of cuneiform are beyond your ken.
Peter T. Daniels
Oh jeez.
Why can't you just read his 16,000 already existing posts on the
topic, instead of making him type it all out YET AGAIN?
Peter T. Daniels
> Dear Franz,
>
> About Gobekli Tepe: It was not an Indo-European language used there,
> for a start. It was Afro-Asiatic. There may very well have been an
> Indo-European language in use in Eurasia thousands of years ago, but
> not at Gobekli Tepe (unless it was spoken by the people who tried to
> smash some of the steles.)
> The writing on one seal from Gobekli Tepe reads very clearly 'M-Sh-He'
> in characters similar to proto-Canaanitic. This is a name very common
> in Afro-Asiatic languages, it is Mose in Egyptian, Musa in Arabic and
> Moshe in Hebrew. It means 'son' or 'birth'.-
Jesus H. Fucking Christ. Do you not even know what "borrowing" is?
And how, exactly, do you imagine that an AA language got to Anatolia
in 10,000 BCE?
S. M. Sullivan
Afro-Asiatic writing would be writing systems used to record Arabic,
Hebrew, Aramaic and other Afro-Asiatic languages.
Do you know how to read cuneiform, Peter? Which kinds? Akkadian only?
S. M. Sullivan
Who asked him to comment? Not me.
I do not want to read Walls of Bad Etymology and assertions that he
can read Magdalenian and it is really PIE.
It also is annoying to be told that I am spreading false information
because I admitted I did not agree with his ideas.
S. M. Sullivan
The site in question is Natufian and is not far from Syria, where
there are also known Natufian sites, and... how did they get there?
They walked from Syria. Do you even know what Natufians were?
Go look up Natufian culture in Wikipedia or something. They were
associated with the the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages, among other
things. I thought you'd at least know that, but you frequently
disappoint.
What is your area of expertise, exactly?
Franz Gnaedinger
The Magdalenian etymology of etymology would be
EK TOM )OG or EK TOM LOG
EK out (of)
TOM stone knive, to cut
)OG or LOG having the say, logos
together: to cut out in a logical way, the science of
recognizing and identifying the relevant parts (in a word),
etymology e-tym-o-log-y e-tym-log EK TOM )OG or
EK TOM LOG. Greek etymos means real, true, certain;
personified. If you wish to find the truth, what is true,
etymon, look out for the relevant parts. Truth is not found
outside the world, hovering above the world, but inside
the world and life ... Magdalenian is a treasure of early
philosophy.
S. M. Sullivan
Since you bring up the exception of cuneiform writing, which was
written in top-down columns in the earliest form, and then changed to
left to right horizontal (like English), here's a fine article link
about that very topic:
http://cdli.ucla.edu/pubs/cdlb/2003/cdlb2003_002.pdf
Of course, ancient Egyptian, another Afro-Asiatic writing system, went
both ways, sometimes simultaneously. By that I mean that a text might
be written in one horizontal direction, and an adjacent identical text
would be written in the other direction. This was indicative of the
desire of Egyptians for harmony and balance, and an aesthetic sense
unrivaled in the ancient world.
S. M. Sullivan
And since we're bringing up exceptions to the general rule of right to
left horizontal orientaion for Afro-Asiatic languages, a lot of older
Egyptian inscriptions are in top-down columns. And Ugaritic, of
course, was a cuneiform horizontal left to right script.
This does not void my point, that most of these Afro-Asiatic written
languages did not go left to right. And Gobekli Tepe Script may be
found in horizontal and top-down mode.
S. M. Sullivan
No one has made him do anything.
You are so full of loathing, contempt and rage.
You don't even read what I post or link to, most often.
Why not go away?
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> I see about 12 "elements" or "signs" in your illustrations.
>
> |, 0, a downpointing delta with a tail either straight or wavy, that
> wavy vertical line, a circle with a diagonal line, a "tree" like
> symbol, crosshatching, U, - , an arc, and a series of waves joined.
>
> Some combinations , your H is two verticals and a horizontal, there
> are Us with and without a circle, two verticals joined by a circle, a
> horizontal line with the arc and U.
>
> Not much of a vocabulary.
>
Are you speaking of the band under the hands of the
female central pillar of temple D, pillar 18, the eastern
central pillar of the biggest stone pillar temple excavated
so far? The central pillars of temple D represent a triple
goddess, the fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID
and the fertility giver BRI GID, an emanation of the triple
goddess of Paleolithic times, known to us in form of the
Celtic triple goddess Brigit (pillar 18) and a triple god and
hero, AAR RAA NOS Ouranos and GIS BAL CA MmOS
GISh.BIL.GA.MISh Gilgamesh and AD DA MAN Adam
(pillar 31); pillar 18 being the eastern and pillar 33 being
the western central pillar of temple D, both reaching a height
of some five meters above the original floor, but their lower
parts are still covered by rubble that was used for filling up
the temples 9,500 years ago, when the site was abandoned.
The signs on the 'throats' of the pillars 18 and 31 have been
explained before. Here again my phonetic interpretation:
http://www.seshat.ch/home/gt01.GIF
While more rubble was removed, below the hands of the
triple goddess of pillar 18 appeared a band: on the right
flank of the pillar, under the horizontal fox in the bend of
the arm, are signs that can be rendered as ( H ) ( H )
only that the arcs are semicircles, while on the narrow part
on the (southern) front of the pillar the band shows four
heads of snakes, in the middle a big U, then again four
heads of snakes. The big U mirrors the U-shaped stone
at the entrance of temple C, the beasts on top of that stone,
baring their teeth (one of them preserved, the other lost)
indicating that the U has to do with the dead ruler's journey
through the Underworld, symbolizing the descent into and
traversing of and return from the Underworld. The snake
heads flanking the U are abbreviations of the more elaborate
version of the snakes on pillar 33, again temple D. Snakes
in the region of the Göbekli Tepe indicate water, this time
the rivers of the fire archers PIR RYT Firat Euphrates and
their 'fingers' (arrows) of light and luck DIG LIC Dicle Tigris.
Now for the ( H ) signs. The semicircles ( ) indicate the
stone pillar rings, while the vertical bars of the H symbolize
the bigger central pillars, and the small horizontal bar has
two differrent meanings: a) the mouth of the speaking
shamaness standing between the central pillars, made
obvious by the standing H on the 'throat' of pillar 18
that is given as a hollow oval evoking an open mouth,
and b) the body of a dead ruler placed between the pair
of central pillars, the body without the head, offered to the
vultures, remember Klaus Schmidt's analogy of the Göbekli
Tepe to the Iranian Towers of Silence. Now these events
are depicted on the most phantastic pillar, pillar 43, again
temple D. The beheaded ruler is riding a giant bird, which
bird carries him out of the temple. Above is the pregnant
vulture priestess, on her outstretched arm or wing a solar disc
- the missing head of the ruler turned into the sun, promise
of a new life in the beyond, anticipating the Egyptian belief
that the dead king will return as the sun, in the solar disc,
one with Ra (from Magdalenian RAA meaning light). But it
isn't time for this transformation yet. The bird carries the
beheaded ruler out to the west, also the Egyptians saw
the land of the dead in the west, region of the settting sun.
The ruler has first to traverse the Underworld, which is
indicated by the horizontal fox in the bend of the right arm
of the triple goddess of pillar 18 temple D. When he returns,
guided by the fox, and passes the guarding beasts of bared
teeth that let only pass worthy souls -- only then can he climb
the sky as the rising sun, indicated by the elegant leaping
foxes on the central pillars of temple B (that combines a year
with the life of a supreme ruler). The reliefs on the pillars
of the Göbekli Tepe convey _visual_ messages,
they are not writing in our modern sense of the word,
and yet they are writing, as they convey messages in the
framework of an amazingly complex ancient belief at the
begin of the era now called Neolithic I. We have to abandon
the view that writing was created ex nihilo around 3 400 BC
in Upper Egypt and Mesopotamia. While a letter has an
exact phonetical value, many signs on the pillars of the
Göbekli Tepe are polyvalent, also the ( H ) sign that has
a further meaning as calendar: one semicircle given as
arc ( indicates the 180 days between the midwinter
and midsummer festival, the other semicircle given as
arc ) indicates the 180 days between the midsummer
and midwinter festival, while the horizontal bar indicates
the additional 5 and occasionally 6 days of the solar year,
midsummer: day of AAR RAA NOS Ouranos, day of turtle,
day of AD DA MAN Adam; midwinter: day of BRI GID,
occasional day of eagle, day of PIR GID and her fire archers
PIR RYT who send up their 'fingers' (arrows) of light and luck
DIG LIC on New Year's Eve, along the shores of the PIR RYT
Firat Euphrates and DIG LIC Dicle Tigris, a happy event
conveyed by the signs on the lower part of pillar 33 temple D.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Dear Franz,
>
> About Gobekli Tepe: It was not an Indo-European language used there,
> for a start. It was Afro-Asiatic. There may very well have been an
> Indo-European language in use in Eurasia thousands of years ago, but
> not at Gobekli Tepe (unless it was spoken by the people who tried to
> smash some of the steles.)
> The writing on one seal from Gobekli Tepe reads very clearly 'M-Sh-He'
> in characters similar to proto-Canaanitic. This is a name very common
> in Afro-Asiatic languages, it is Mose in Egyptian, Musa in Arabic and
> Moshe in Hebrew. It means 'son' or 'birth'.
Let me reply here to all your replies to me.
First, the Göbekli Tepe culture was not Natufian,
it was a distinct culture with some contacts to the
Natufian. Earlier linguists postulated a Japhetic
period, when all peoples used the same language.
I revive that concept in a more defined manner:
The tribes of Homo sapiens sapiens who started from
Southern India and entered Europe some 42,000 years
ago spoke Afro-Asiatic, which, under the influence of
the Ice Age that triggered technological and in it's wake
cultural progress, evolved into the language of Ice Age
Eurasia, and the fully developed form of that language
would have been Magdalenian, named for the culture
that spread from Northern Spain in the west to Lake
Baikal in the east. The Göbekli Tepe would have been
a Late Magdalenian outpost, and both the cultural
achievements of the Ice Age and the more developed
language would have spread from there to all sides.
Consider for example AAR RAA NOS who became
the Greek sky god Ouranos and the Indian sky god
Varuna. The same god gave his name to valleys in
Europe, Val d'Aran, Arundel, Val d'Hérens in the
Swiss Alps (a valley is a hollow between solid masses
of rock, filled with air AAR and light RAA). A further
descendant of AAR RAA NOS is the Egyptian Ra,
the supreme god appearing in the solar disc, spender
of daylight, RAA meaning light. AAR RAA NOS also
occurs in the version of AAR RAA CA, the one composed
of air AAR and light RAA in the sky CA, and this version
became muruku in the Indus Valley and Tamil Murukan,
also Horus in Egypt, while the form AAR RAA AC, the
one composed of air AAR and light RAA on earth AC,
would account for Horakhty, Horus on the horizon, his
solar eye or lunar eye rising from or setting on the horizon,
hence being in contact with the earth AC. The Göbekli
Tepe predates the begin of predynastic Egypt by over
4,000 years, the begin of proto-dynastic Egypt by over
6,000 years, and the building of the Great Pyramid by
some 7,000 years. The first stone pillar temples (A B C D)
are 11,600 years old, while the earth mound, a layer of
up to five meters of earth carried to the top of the hill
and deposited there, is about 12,000 years old. On top
of the earth mound I assume wooden temples, wood pillar
temples that were replaced by the later stone pillar temples.
The first cultivated emmer (or tricorn?) identified genetically
is from the base of the Karacadag to the northeast of
the Göbekli Tepe, belonging to the Göbekli Tepe area.
Agriculture was invented here, and so it's only natural
that the language spread from here, together with the
invention of agriculture and all it involved. As for Moses:
I have one of may 'painful' explanations also for this name,
here published for the first time: it might be MmOS CA,
offspring MmOS of the sky CA, having a parallel in
GIS BAL CA MmOS GISh.BIL.GA.MISh Gilgamesh,
gesturing GIS hot(headed or blooded) BAL son MmOS
of the sky CA, the rump form BAL accounting for Baal.
In the society of the Göbekli Tepe he would have been
a guard, an early 'soldier', while AD DA MAN Adam
was the early farmer and digger of ditches - but I stop it
here, having gone far too far already. Only one more thing:
HArran or HAran, some forty kilometers south of the
Göbekli Tepe, an important place in the Bible, was
named for AAR RAA NOS - hAAR RAA N - hARRAN.
Jack Linthicum
I am getting the picture. No one can know what the symbols mean, or
how to pronounce them, so improvise. Another word for invent.
pauljk
"Franz Gnaedinger" <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
news:2bb4fedd-8fe6-4ca6...@30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
ROTFL!
This is great.
Poor Greeks perverted its correct old meaning with etumologi : etumon,
true sense of a word. The true etymology of etymology is something
like off-cut-word, a schnitzelwort. :-)
pjk
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> I am getting the picture. No one can know what the symbols mean, or
> how to pronounce them, so improvise. Another word for invent.
Re-invent and re-construct, relying on a wide spectrum of
cultural legacies. We expect to one day receive messages
from outer space. How can we hope to understand them
if we don't even try to understand the messages left by our
ancient forebears?
Jack Linthicum
If they were messages. Re constructing without a base, say a gap of
8-9 thousand years, is inventing.
Franz Gnaedinger
> "Franz Gnaedinger" <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
Consider the English saying "cut through to the core"
- here a couple of Google results for that saying
About 673,000 results (0.28 seconds)
Search Results
1.
The One Thing You Need to Know | Book by Marcus Buckingham -
Simon ...
"Buckingham is a superb writer and speaker who can make complex
ideas crystal clear, cut through to the core insight, and reveal its
crucial importance. ...
books.simonandschuster.com/.../9780743261654 - Cached - Similar
2. [PDF]
VOLVO TRUCK & BUS
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
team allowed them to cut through to the core issues of. Volvo's
fleet management and significantly streamline management processes ...
www.lex.co.uk/pdf/Volvo_case_study.pdf - Similar
3.
Michael Winner for Prime minister? | Facebook
Like many elderly people he managed to cut through to the core
of the situation and make some very valid and intelligent points
without even the slightest ...
www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=27681157334 - Cached
4.
Amy Winehouse - Amy Winehouse, Biography, Discography, Back
To ...
Amy had cut through to the core of the human condition with her
debut, adding her own jazzy witticisms to the legacy of the
greats. ...
www.amywinehouse.com/about_amy.php - Cached - Similar
5.
An Invitation...
Sometimes questions are like that - burning laser beams of
intensity that cut through to the core of the problem. And sometimes
questions are just pesky ...
www.culturalcreatives.org/invitation.html - Cached
6.
Chicken soup for the college soul: inspiring and humorous
stories ... - Google Books Result
Jack Canfield, Mark Victor Hansen, Kimberly Kirberger - 1999 -
Education - 340 pages
The more we met, the more I resented his intelligence and his
ability to cut through to the core issues. And I was aware he was much
more advanced than I. ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=1558747028...
7.
Enter the Open Door - Google Books Result
Ann Conner - 2008 - Religion - 396 pages
Today, simply lay your life before God and allow Him to cut
through to the core of the situation. Something will have to go. It
might surprise you what ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=1606478036...
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> If they were messages. Re constructing without a base, say a gap of
> 8-9 thousand years, is inventing.
We have that base. The earliest writing identified so far
by one poster Holly in the spring of 2006 who applied
my reconstruction of PAS to the ideogram in the Brunel
Chamber of the Chauvet cave, some 32,000 years old
PAD --- activity of feet
comparative PAS --- everywhere (in a plain), here,
south and north of me, east and west of me, all in all
five places, wherefrom Greek pas pan 'all, every'
and pente penta- 'five'
Now Holly used my word for naming the domino five
in the Brunel chamber and was very excited about it
O O
O
O O
Actually, there is one more dot, also a red dot, in upper
position that can be read as CA for sky
O O O CA
O
O O PAS
Together: PAS CA, everywhere PAS in the sky CA,
may the bull man or supreme leader (bison on the
stalactite in the rear hall of the Chauvet cave whose
head covers the womb of the Venus drawn on the
same stalactite) be born again in the sky (more
precisely in the region of the Summer Triangle
Deneb Vega Atair) and roam the sky in his next life
as he roams the land in this life ... PAS CA accounts
for Russiam Paskha Italian Pasqua French Pâques
'Easter'.
This is just an example, I have much more, my work
from the past years in sci.archaeology and then sci.lang,
based on almost fifty years of studies in cave and rock art.
By the way, the inverse of PAS, namely SAP, means
everywhere (in space), here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, under and above me, all in all
seven places, wherefrom seven in many languages
including Hebrew sheb, and Latin sapientia for world
wisdom, Greek sophia for wisdom, acquired by having
traveled and knowing the world in all places.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Oct 15, 12:26 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 8:26 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 14, 10:02 pm, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I think you may be right, and that U-shaped symbol was meant to be the
> > > > first thing seen by an onlooker. This could indicate that the
> > > > inscription (if it is one) begins with the U-shaped sign, and is then
> > > > to be read right to left from there, typical for Afro-Asiatic writing.-
>
> > > WTF is "Afro-Asiatic writing"?
>
> > > I see all three separate varieties of cuneiform are beyond your ken.
>
> > Since you bring up the exception of cuneiform writing, which was
> > written in top-down columns in the earliest form, and then changed to
> > left to right horizontal (like English), here's a fine article link
> > about that very topic:
>
> >http://cdli.ucla.edu/pubs/cdlb/2003/cdlb2003_002.pdf
>
> > Of course, ancient Egyptian, another Afro-Asiatic writing system, went
> > both ways, sometimes simultaneously. By that I mean that a text might
> > be written in one horizontal direction, and an adjacent identical text
> > would be written in the other direction. This was indicative of the
> > desire of Egyptians for harmony and balance, and an aesthetic sense
> > unrivaled in the ancient world.
>
> And since we're bringing up exceptions to the general rule of right to
> left horizontal orientaion for Afro-Asiatic languages, a lot of older
> Egyptian inscriptions are in top-down columns.
So are a lot of English storefront signs. That doesn't make it the
normal way of writing.
Now try looking at a papyrus document, obviously the primary writing
medium. The three scripts are _never_ written left to right or top to
bottom.
> And Ugaritic, of
> course, was a cuneiform horizontal left to right script.
"Of course"?
I guess you're not aware that a handful of Ugaritic or related texts
are written right to left.
> This does not void my point, that most of these Afro-Asiatic written
> languages did not go left to right. And Gobekli Tepe Script may be
> found in horizontal and top-down mode.-
No, it voids your "point" that there was something that could be
labeled "AA writing."
Peter T. Daniels
> On Oct 15, 1:29 pm, "pauljk" <paul.kr...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > ROTFL!
> > This is great.
> > Poor Greeks perverted its correct old meaning with etumologi : etumon,
> > true sense of a word. The true etymology of etymology is something
> > like off-cut-word, a schnitzelwort. :-)
>
> Consider the English saying "cut through to the core"
> - here a couple of Google results for that saying
Three of your seven examples aren't even examples of that phrase (in
them, "core" is an adjective, not a noun), and in the other four,
"core" does not stand alone but is modified by an "of ..." phrase.
> About 673,000 results (0.28 seconds)
> Search Results
>
> 1.
> The One Thing You Need to Know | Book by Marcus Buckingham -
> Simon ...
> "Buckingham is a superb writer and speaker who can make complex
> ideas crystal clear, cut through to the core insight, and reveal its
> crucial importance. ...
> books.simonandschuster.com/.../9780743261654 - Cached - Similar
> 2. [PDF]
> VOLVO TRUCK & BUS
> File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
> team allowed them to cut through to the core issues of. Volvo's
> fleet management and significantly streamline management processes ...
> www.lex.co.uk/pdf/Volvo_case_study.pdf- Similar
> 3.
> Michael Winner for Prime minister? | Facebook
> Like many elderly people he managed to cut through to the core
> of the situation and make some very valid and intelligent points
> without even the slightest ...
> www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=27681157334- Cached
> 4.
> Amy Winehouse - Amy Winehouse, Biography, Discography, Back
> To ...
> Amy had cut through to the core of the human condition with her
> debut, adding her own jazzy witticisms to the legacy of the
> greats. ...
> www.amywinehouse.com/about_amy.php- Cached - Similar
> 5.
> An Invitation...
> Sometimes questions are like that - burning laser beams of
> intensity that cut through to the core of the problem. And sometimes
> questions are just pesky ...
> www.culturalcreatives.org/invitation.html- Cached
> 6.
> Chicken soup for the college soul: inspiring and humorous
> stories ... - Google Books Result
> Jack Canfield, Mark Victor Hansen, Kimberly Kirberger - 1999 -
> Education - 340 pages
> The more we met, the more I resented his intelligence and his
> ability to cut through to the core issues. And I was aware he was much
> more advanced than I. ...
> books.google.com/books?isbn=1558747028...
> 7.
> Enter the Open Door - Google Books Result
> Ann Conner - 2008 - Religion - 396 pages
> Today, simply lay your life before God and allow Him to cut
> through to the core of the situation. Something will have to go. It
> might surprise you what ...
Peter T. Daniels
If you had looked at any of the 16,000+ postings, you would know that
whenever anyone who cannot see immediately what he is doing
compliments him, he starts to type it out _all over again_.
> You are so full of loathing, contempt and rage.
>
> You don't even read what I post or link to, most often.
Because what you post has generally no basis in either fact or logic.
> Why not go away?-
Because someone needs to urge you to learn something about the
techniques of what you're trying to do.
Jack Linthicum
Please, a gap from 3200 BC to 12,100 BC is enough without throwing in
32,000 years. Those are inventions, plain ordinary "I think"s not "I
can prove"s. Try the rongo rongo boards next time.
S. M. Sullivan
> On Oct 15, 3:45 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 14, 8:27 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Oct 14, 10:09 pm, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > > > Franz, can you explain to me why you are certain that Gobekli Tepe was
> > > > built by Indo-European language speakers, when you have admitted the
> > > > religion of Gobekli Tepe has parallels with that of Egypt?-
>
>
> > You are so full of loathing, contempt and rage.
>
> > You don't even read what I post or link to, most often.
Peter replied:
>
> Because what you post has generally no basis in either fact or logic.
Sullivan answered:
You can know this without reading or understanding it? Quite a feat.
>
Sullivan asked:
> > Why not go away?-
Peter replied:
>
> Because someone needs to urge you to learn something about the
> techniques of what you're trying to do.
If only you were trying to do that. Instead you are treating people
like scum, while trumpeting your own ignorance (especially on the
Indus script threads).
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> Please, a gap from 3200 BC to 12,100 BC is enough without throwing in
> 32,000 years. Those are inventions, plain ordinary "I think"s not "I
> can prove"s. Try the rongo rongo boards next time.
The rongo rongo script has been explained: when a researcher
(I forgot his name) listened again to the tapes with interviews
of two old men he realized that they were often embarassed
and began speaking around the actual text, so this researcher
had the intuition that they were avoiding explicit sexual customs,
ashamed of their old culture, and inventing colorful terms
in order to avert the interviewer. This new researcher was then
able to reconstruct the old meaning, he discovered that there
was a main festival (in spring, as I recall) when a virgin was
led to a rock high above the sea and ritually 'raped'. This was
the most convincing explanation I read of so far.
Now you want connections between the Göbekli Tepe and
Early Dynastic Egypt and contemporary Mesopotamia?
There are very many. I began my journeys to ancient times
with calendars, also in the case of Lascaux, and of the
Göbekli Tepe. Here again the Göbekli Tepe lunisolar calendar.
A year has 12 months of 30 days, plus 5 and occasionally 6
more days (three days of midsummer, two and sometimes
three days of midwinter), while 63 continuous periods of 30
days are 1,890 days and correspond to 64 lunations or synodic
months, mistake less than half a minute per lunation, or half
a day in a lifetime (check it out, one lunation is 29 days 12
hours 44 minutes 2.9 seconds, modern average value from
1989 AD). This calendar and variations of it are found everywhere.
The Halaf calendar introduced this improvement: 25 years
require 16 leap days (25 x 360 days plus 25 x 5 days plus 6 days).
Then followed more and more improvements in Mesopotamia.
A nice variant of the GT calendar is found in Egypt. Also the
Egyptian month had 30 days. The eyes of the Horus falcon
were sun and moon. Seth destroyed the lunar eye, whereupon
wise Thoth healed it, adding the numerical values of the single
parts 1/2 plus 1/4 plus 1/8 plus 1/16 plus 1/32 plus 1/64, or
simply '2 '4 '8 '16 '32 '64. The healed lunar eye was called
The Whole One. However, the numbers don't add up to one.
Why then The Whole One? This term refers to one whole
_lunation_. Multiply a month of 30 days by the series of the
Hours eye '2 '4 '8 '16 '32 '64 and you obtain 29 '2 '32 days,
or 29 days 12 hours 45 minutes, the Göbekli Tepe value.
Beautiful Karames ware from Crete show a rosette of eight
petals, in the center a small circle. This can be interpreted
as a further variation of the GT lunisolar calendar: each petal
representing a long month of 45 days (five Homeric weeks
of nine days), the small circle in the center standing for 5
and occasionally 6 more days, while 21 continuous periods
of 45 days are 1,890 days and correspond to 64 lunations
(64 being 8 x 8). This calendar is also present in the center
of the Tiryns Disc (one side of the Phaistos Disc). Crete
has many more calendars derived from the GT calendar,
especially the calendars from Knossos that anticipates
the Meton cycle, and the calendar from Mallia. Older,
and a real link between the GT culture and the classical
cultures, is the culture from Beersheba. I reconstructed
dozens of lunisolar calendars in the wake of the GT calendar
that was also used in the Indus Valley, and the cultural
influences of the GT culture - I can't possibly repeat all of it
here, in one single message for you. If you are interested
at all, you have to ask me a precise question about a single
place and period of time.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Three of your seven examples aren't even examples of that phrase (in
> them, "core" is an adjective, not a noun), and in the other four,
> "core" does not stand alone but is modified by an "of ..." phrase.
"Buckingham is a superb writer and speaker who can make complex
ideas crystal clear, cut through to the core insight, and reveal
its
crucial importance. ...
team allowed them to cut through to the core issues of. Volvo's
fleet management and significantly streamline management
processes ...
Like many elderly people he managed to cut through to the core
of the situation and make some very valid and intelligent points
without even the slightest ...
Amy had cut through to the core of the human condition with her
debut, adding her own jazzy witticisms to the legacy of the
greats. ...
Sometimes questions are like that - burning laser beams of
intensity that cut through to the core of the problem. And
sometimes
questions are just pesky ...
The more we met, the more I resented his intelligence and his
ability to cut through to the core issues. And I was aware he was
much
more advanced than I. ...
Today, simply lay your life before God and allow Him to cut
through to the core of the situation. Something will have to go. It
might surprise you what ...
The seven first Google results, and all valid, illustrating my point.
If you do a query for the verb cut in the online OED you will find
many sayings, which testifies to the still present influence of
early reasoning, when tools were used for beating and cutting
and piercing. Technology defines the way we are reasoning.
The mechanical paradigm turned the universe into a clockwork
(Newton) and animals into automata (Descartes), Freud explained
the human psyche in terms of a hydraulic apparatus, today the
brain is understood as a computer, and there are physical theories
that explain the cosmos itself as an information processing machine.
By the way, you told me for years and years that you have absolutely
no interest in the Göbekli Tepe, and absolutely no reason to inform
yourself about the Göbekli Tepe. Why, then, are you showing up
in here, in a thread about the Göbekli Tepe? Your deliberate ignorance
doesn't make you an expert.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> On Oct 15, 2:48 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Please, a gap from 3200 BC to 12,100 BC is enough without throwing in
> > 32,000 years. Those are inventions, plain ordinary "I think"s not "I
> > can prove"s. Try the rongo rongo boards next time.
>
> The rongo rongo script has been explained: when a researcher
> (I forgot his name) listened again to the tapes with interviews
> of two old men he realized that they were often embarassed
> and began speaking around the actual text, so this researcher
> had the intuition that they were avoiding explicit sexual customs,
> ashamed of their old culture, and inventing colorful terms
> in order to avert the interviewer. This new researcher was then
> able to reconstruct the old meaning, he discovered that there
> was a main festival (in spring, as I recall) when a virgin was
> led to a rock high above the sea and ritually 'raped'. This was
> the most convincing explanation I read of so far.
Dammit, Franz, why can't you remember his name? I thought I had all
3,798 proposed "explanations" of rongorongo in my collection, and now
you've come up with one I've never heard of! And it's "convincing"!
Come on, think! Did you see it on TV? Or in a movie? Did you dream it,
maybe? What was the name of the researcher? The old guys?
Actually the stuff about spring festivals and ritual rape of virgins
and stuff makes me think of "The Golden Bough". You didn't read it
there, did you?
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> Dammit, Franz, why can't you remember his name? I thought I had all
> 3,798 proposed "explanations" of rongorongo in my collection, and now
> you've come up with one I've never heard of! And it's "convincing"!
> Come on, think! Did you see it on TV? Or in a movie? Did you dream it,
> maybe? What was the name of the researcher? The old guys?
> Actually the stuff about spring festivals and ritual rape of virgins
> and stuff makes me think of "The Golden Bough". You didn't read it
> there, did you?
Are you being ironic? Here my answer for the case
your question is meant serious. As far as I remember,
I read a long article (one entire page) of the German
weekly Die Zeit 'The Times', format of a big newspaper,
so it was a very long article. Die Zeit is a high quality
paper, with very good scientific and cultural redactions.
The article may have appeared in the early years or
middle of this decade. If you are really interested in this
interpretation you may ask them, sending an e-mail.
And if you are really really serious I could ask them
for you. Is that an offer? I don't know if they have
an online archive of past articles. The renowned
Neue Zürcher Zeitung from Zurich, once founded
as journal of the revolutionaries of the 19th century,
but that's a long time since, publish a year of their
newspaper on CDs, but that's very expensive,
about 1,600 Swiss francs or as many US dollars,
as I recall. But if you have a query you can ask them
a question and they go through their archive, for a fee,
of course. Maybe Die Zeit in Hamburg offers the same
service?
benl...@ihug.co.nz
I can't deny that irony was part of my intention.
Unfortunately, even high quality serious European newspapers may
devote space to quite crazy stuff, particularly when it is to do with
a distant part of the world about which they know little.
I would like to know more particulars about this theory, but I
wouldn't go so far as to pay money for it. If you can find out for
free, I'll be grateful.
But what was it that struck you as convincing about this theory? The
last person who was even imagined to have a traditional knowlege of
rongorongo was Metoro, whose testimony was taken down by Bishop
Jaussen. But this was in the 1870s, long before any tape could have
been made. And most people think Metoro was largely faking it. Anybody
within the tape recorder era (last half century) who claimed a
traditional knowledge of rongorongo would have to be a hoaxer.
Jack Linthicum
Compare. We have a known language, use up until Europeans arrived, and
a purpose for rongo rongo. Göbekli Tepe "inscriptions" are in an
unknown language, if they are a form of a language; last use perhaps
10k ya, and no possible knowledge of the purpose, beyond decoration.
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> I can't deny that irony was part of my intention.
> Unfortunately, even high quality serious European newspapers may
> devote space to quite crazy stuff, particularly when it is to do with
> a distant part of the world about which they know little.
> I would like to know more particulars about this theory, but I
> wouldn't go so far as to pay money for it. If you can find out for
> free, I'll be grateful.
> But what was it that struck you as convincing about this theory? The
> last person who was even imagined to have a traditional knowlege of
> rongorongo was Metoro, whose testimony was taken down by Bishop
> Jaussen. But this was in the 1870s, long before any tape could have
> been made. And most people think Metoro was largely faking it. Anybody
> within the tape recorder era (last half century) who claimed a
> traditional knowledge of rongorongo would have to be a hoaxer.
The researcher I have in mind might perhaps be
Egbert Richter-Ushanas from the university of Bremen
in Germany. Here a very long quote from his website
II. The Rosetta stone of the Rongorongo script
Preliminary remarks
There are two possibilities to read the tablets of the Easter Island
script: Either by ascertaining a structural regularity on account of
the repetition of certain signs or sign-sequences, or by taking
recourse to the oral tradition, though it is sometimes contradictory
and therefore unreliable to a certain extent. In this contribution the
attention will be focused on the oral tradition, but structural rules
will be considered too. The main body of the oral tradition in regard
to the tablets consists of the chants of the natives Metoro Tau a Ure
and Ure Vaeiko. Metoro's chants were written down by the bishop of
Tahiti, F.E. (Tepano) Jaussen in about 1873. The chants of Ure Vaeiko
that could not be affiliated to any tablet so far were recorded by
J.W. Thomson, the paymaster of an American ship visiting the Island in
1886, on the ground of the notes of the Tahitian merchant A. Salmon.
The chants of Metoro are judged by all scholars as incoherent, though
not totally incomprehensible. A few passages were translated in the
past only to illustrate its uselessness for the understanding of the
tablets. Ure Vaeiko's chants have been translated insufficiently into
English by A. Salmon.
Part of the oral tradition are a number of popular songs that have
been saved from oblivion by the ethnologist K. Routledge. The Rosetta
stone of the Rongorongo script, as the Easter Island script is
generally called today, is contained in these songs, in particular in
those songs that deal with youth initiation.
The inscriptions of the breast ornament Rei Miro 2 and of the New York
birdman have been translated here on the ground of this oral
tradition. A sign-list elaborated by bishop Jaussen in 1893 turned out
to be indispensable for the translation of these texts as well as of
Metoro’s chants, after it had been adjusted to the sign-lists
published by the German ethnologist Th. Barthel in 1958 and 1963. As
an example of Metoro’s chants his reading of the first two lines of
the tablet Aruku Kurenga are presented to the reader.
1. The beginning of Rongorongo research
When in the 1870ties bishop T. Jaussen made the first attempt to
decipher the Easter Island script called Rongorongo nowadays, because
the sticks and tablets (kohau) on which it is inscribed were chanted
(rongorongo), he had the assistance of the native speaker Metoro Tau a
Ure who was working on a plant in Tahiti at that time. Four tablets,
known under the names of Aruku Kurenga, Tahua, Keiti and Mamari, were
read to him by Metoro, and by comparing his readings word for word
with the signs Jaussen elaborated a list (J) of 253 signs and
ligatures known as Jaussen-list. It was published posthumously by
Alazard in 1893 and reproduced by Wolff (1973: 66-77) and Heyerdahl
(1965: Fig. 85-94). Though the bishop explained the signs in this list
at first in Rapanui, the language of Easter Island - the island is
called Rapa Nui nowadays -, and then in French, Jaussen was not able
to find out a meaning in Metoro's reading of the tablets. Alazard, the
publisher of his book, was of the same opinion, and illustrated this
by translating the first line of the tablet Aruku Kurenga (Heyerdahl
1965: 353). When 40 years later the reputed ethnologist and expert of
Rapanui, S.H. Ray, studied this line carefully he arrived at the same
result (1932: 153-155).
It even appears, as if Metoro was not interested in revealing the
secrets of the script to a foreigner. It is also possible, however,
that Metoro had a feeling of respect for the bishop, and that he only
relied upon the method, by which he had himself learnt the script from
his teachers on Easter Island. At any rate, the bishop saw only a bulk
of words and short sentences quite similar to a dictionary. Already on
account of the length of the chants he thought it inappropriate to
publish them. Most likely he had objections against the contents, too,
since he could not have failed to notice the sexual meaning of many
words. This may be the reason, why he did not invite Metoro for a
second session. In spite of these circumstances, he made his list, of
which he believed that it would make Metoro's chants intelligible.
The ethnopsychologist W. Wolff tried in 1945 to read the first three
lines of the tablet Aruku Kurenga on the ground of Jaussen's word-list
(1973: 80-104) having access to Metoro's reading in a corrupted form
only. Though his 'translation' - the first line is mainly based on
Ray's - contains several mistakes and does not go much beyond simple
word-renderings, it is obvious that Metoro's chants are not completely
meaningless. Wolff regarded Metoro as a competent interpreter
therefore (1973: 90), though on the other hand he deemed it possible
that the natives were consciously misleading the ethnologists (1973:
62). That Metoro, just because he is a competent interpreter could
make himself understandable to the bishop only in the frame of the
latter's limits of thought, is not taken into consideration by Wolff.
Eight years later, P. A. Lanyon-Orgill tried to translate the tablets
Atua Mata Riri (Small Washington Tablet) and Mamari after Wolff's
example with the help of the Jaussen-list only. Metoro's chant of the
tablet Mamari was unknown to him and his transcriptions of the tablets
were quite insufficient. Hence he could not achieve verifiable
results, though he looked on the matter from the right point of view.
Thirteen years after Wolff's and only five years after Lanyon-Orgill's
rather fruitless attempts the renowned German ethnologist Th. Barthel
published Metoro's four chants for the first time in total, but
without a translation in his monograph on the Easter Island script in
1958. The list of about 700 signs that was published by him at the
same place as an appendix has no explanations either. The translations
from the tablets scattered in the monograph and his later attempts to
read the script are confined to short quotations. In the sign-list of
1963 only 170 signs are explained, partly based on Metoro's readings,
partly on arbitrary epigraphic suppositions. It is unrealistic to
expect to obtain the meaning of whole tablets or of whole lines even
by only translating short passages relying on a small number of signs.
Such a method cannot be called scientific either. S. R. Fischer (1997:
228) looks upon Bathel's scientifically uncontrollable explanations as
a house of cards built on sand, the sand being Metoro. But Metoro
cannot be held responsible for Barthel's explanations, since they are
mostly his own conjectures.
Independent of Barthel's publication of Metoro's readings Th.
Heyerdahl studied Jaussen's manuscripts kept at Grottafera near Rome.
Irritated by the fact that different signs can have the same and
identical or nearly identical signs a different meaning he remarked
that it would seem to be a direct disavowal of Metoro's abilities as
tangata rongorongo man if one tried to read from his information
intelligible stories (1965: 381).
It took nearly 30 years till Heyerdahl's verdict was confirmed by the
detailed scientific investigation of Metoro's chants through the
Russian ethnologist and expert of Rapanui, I.K. Fedorova (1986:
238-254). But in her 'evidence based on circumstances', by which she
tries to show that Metoro's readings are deceitful, she has made
several mistakes, which we shall discuss later. Besides, she has only
given an interlinear translation of the first line of the tablet Aruku
Kurenga like her predecessors apart from some examples taken from here
and there of Metoro's readings. Moreover, she confines herself to the
investigation of the realm of rational knowledge, as she admits
herself (1986: 253). In a way, this is contradictory to her
enthusiastic panegyric on the creative abilities of the Soviet
researchers at the end of her article, since creativity cannot be
confined to the realm of rationality. S.R. Fischer follows Fedorova in
his judgement on Metoro's chants (1997: 53), without testing her
arguments.
After considering that bishop Jaussen wanted to know the meaning of
each single sign and making hence no demands contrarily to this
preposition, Metoro's chants are the best means to study the
Rongorongo script. Having undertaken the necessary efforts it will
become clear that a coherent translation can be afforded without
relying too much on fantasy, because each chant deals with a certain
category. They are sometimes even composed according to the rule of
tension, climax and balance found in all works of poetry and music. It
can be assumed, therefore, that Metoro did his best to explain the
meaning of the signs to Jaussen. We have to recognize, however, that
he has often rendered them indirectly or metaphorically. It is
unimportant in this regard, whether different signs have the same
meaning and same signs a different meaning. This is the case with all
symbolic systems of writing.
Metoro would not have deceived the bishop, even if he would have read
the same tablet in a different way a few days later, he would have
done it, however, if he would have read it exactly in the same way. At
any rate, he reads a nearly identical sequence of signs on the tablets
Keiti and Mamari nearly identical. Beyond doubt, he was competent to
read the tablets, too, because he was taught in his youth by three
teachers of Rongorongo (Fischer 1997: 49).
Metoro need not fear the consequences of violating the taboo connected
with the tablets either, since after the year 1862, when most of the
islanders and among them nearly all Rongorongo experts were brought as
slaves to Peru and died there or on the way back of smallpox, nobody
was there to punish him after his return to Easter Island. To read a
syllabic writing is not more difficult than reading a letter script,
if one is conversant with the oral tradition and the symbolic
conception behind the pictograms. Therefore, even boys were taught to
read and write the Rongorongo script.
In 1886, W.J. Thomson, the paymaster of an American warship, was able
to persuade the native Ure Vaeiko to read photographs of the tablets
that had been brought by him to the Island as a loan of bishop
Jaussen. Ure Vaeiko had been a cook of Ngaara, the last independent
king of Easter Island, who died around 1850, and had learnt the script
from the king directly. But Ure Vaeiko's readings did not promote the
understanding of the tablets at all, since they were apparently not
related to them. Moreover, the transcription of the original language
of Easter Island and its translation into English is full of mistakes.
Many words were misunderstood by Thomson's translator A. Salmon, a
Tahitian of Jewish origin, who owned a sheep station on Rapa Nui at
that time.
Another source that could be helpful in understanding the script is
the oral tradition in general, but besides the names of some tablets
only the beginning of a tablet called he timo te akoako has been
recorded apparently. It was quoted by the natives, whenever they were
asked to recite the contents of the tablets and was even given as a
name to all tablets (Fischer 1997: 272). A traditional song going
under this name has been recorded by Routledge in several versions
(Fischer 1994: 415-417) and a short rendering of it is contained in
manuscript A in Latin writing collected by Heyerdahl (1965: Fig 127),
but the text is regarded as being unintelligible (Fedorova 1965: 401).
Other manuscripts that have been written in Latin (B to F) have been
translated, but had no effect on the understanding of Rongorongo.
The at first sight promising attempt to compare the Easter Island
script with the outwardly similar-looking Indus script undertaken by
de Hevesy (1933) does not find the approval of modern scholars
anymore, mostly on account of many faults in his transcription of the
Indus signs. At any rate, it is not helpful for the decipherment of
each of the scripts, because he has compared the unknown with the
unknown. S. R. Fischer admits, however, that de Hevesy opened up a
whole new era of scientific interest in Rongorongo (1957:153).
Scholars who criticise de Hevesy often do not notice that in the title
of his lecture held on this topic he has spoken of 'paraissant',
appearing, in relation to the similarity of the two writings. The most
important point of objection is, however, that even if the signs of
the Indus script were similar to Rongorongo signs, they need not have
the same meaning. The same can be said of the similarities between the
Indus script and the Hittite script discovered by Meriggi (1938).
De Hevesy, for instance, compares the Rongorongo sign for sky with the
Indus sign for the leaf of the pipal (fig)-tree with additional
strokes that lend it the appearance of a maple-leaf, but need not
change its basic meaning. The tree represented by the leaf and the sky
can be related to each other, if the tree is regarded as the world
tree, but this concept is unknown to the oral tradition of Easter
Island. The elements of the Rongorongo sign for sky are the sign for
white and for hibiscus that cannot be regarded as a candidate for the
world tree.
In view of these failures, the greatest hope to read the Rongorongo
script is still resting on the discovery of similarities between the
oral and the written tradition. Although the oral tradition is
unreliable, as is pointed out beforehand by many ethnologists and
linguists, eventually by S.R. Fischer (1997: 268), it can be said with
security, that what is written in the tablets is known at least to a
certain extent from the oral tradition. If anywhere, the Rosetta stone
of Rongorongo lies in the discovery of such similarities. Fischer
mentions the song-tradition in his monograph too (1997: 304). Only on
the ground of the oral tradition a complete reading of the tablets can
be afforded, which was also called for by Barthel (1958: 224), without
he himself being able to do it. Induced by Ure Vaeiko's chant Atua
Mata Riri Fischer discovered a cosmogonic formula on the Santiago-
staff and other tablets, rendered by him as X1YZn. This may be a
breakthrough, as he calls it, from the point of view of his structural
method, even the most important after Barthel's monograph, but it is
not more than a contribution to the decipherment, not the decipherment
itself. Fischer speaks himself of a second breakthrough after the
first discovery (1997: 260). There are many further breakthroughs
necessary, before one can say that the script of Easter Island can be
called deciphered.
One thing, however, has been confirmed by Fischer's explorations: The
Easter Island signs form a script. They are not merely mnemonic
devices nor lists of ancestors nor purely ornamentic. Nor are they
reproductions of constellations, as it is maintained by the hobby-
astronomer and designer M. Dietrich (1998; 1999). The Jaussen-list
does contain signs for star(s) and the Milky Way, but the only
constellation named there is that of the Pleiades. Besides, the Belt
of Orion is mentioned by Metoro several times. The Pleiades and Orion
are spring-constellations on Easter Island and they are related to
youth initiation therefore.
The Rongorongo script cannot be compared to Hawaiian cloth patterns
either that are called a script by L. Melville (1986: 109). Since
cloth patterns cannot render grammatical forms even in a rudimentary
form, they do not deserve the name writing.
Generally, the Rongorongo signs can easily be recognized as men,
animals and plants, implements and geographica. This would not be
sufficient to call them a script, however. For this the ability of
rendering grammatical constructions at least in a rudimentary form is
required, that cannot be afforded by cloth patterns or constellations.
This condition is fulfilled by the reading of the Rongorongo signs
through Metoro and Ure Vaeiko. Therefore it is justified to call
Rongorongo the only script that exists in the huge Pacific area.
Beside the tablets, of which 21 have been retained in a more or less
good condition, there are a four other objects incised with Rongorongo
script, the breast ornament Rei Miro 1 (with two signs), the breast
ornament Rei Miro 2 (with 43 signs), a snuff-box (Fischer 1997: 429)
and the figure of a birdman. Except the snuffbox all artefacts were
published by Barthel in his monograph in the transcriptions of the
americanist B. Spranz. Fischer's new transcriptions (1997: 403-508)
display a great number of improvements, because they are based on the
originals and not on photographs and plasters that were used by
Spranz. Fischer did not numeralize the signs, however. This means that
Barthel's numeralizations have still to be used, as Fischer himself
does.
Before I ventured to approach the comparatively long texts of the
tablets, I thought it recommendable to study the shorter material. For
this purpose, the single line of the breast ornament Rei Miro 2 is
especially suitable. Its study yielded a meaningful result to me at
the very beginning, though several details remained unintelligible.
Meanwhile, the former translation has been proved to be wrong in many
aspects, its formal criteria have been retained until now, however.
After translating the breast ornament I looked for identical passages
in the recitations of Ure Vaeiko and of Metoro. Eventually, I
discovered the model of Ure Vaeiko's Love Song (Thomson 1889: 526)
with the help of the sign for woman in the tablet Tahua. This
discovery led to a provisional translation of the tablets Keiti and
Aruku Kurenga on the ground of the Jaussen-list. The comparison with
Metoro's readings made it clear, however, that much better results can
be obtained by translating them directly from the Rapanui text. Even
Fischer admits that these readings are not Metoro's invention, but
that they are based on the oral tradition (1997: 52). Barthel has
indeed discovered Bruchstücke echter Tradition [parts of genuine
traditions] therein (1958: 210).
Therefore I read these 'fragments' in the light of this tradition, dim
as it may be, to find a common ground either philological or
epigraphical, through which the category of a line can be ascertained.
Fischer relates the category to a complete tablet, but it can be
affiliated to a line as well. Line and tablet can consist of several
categories. The tablet can be named after the main category of the
first line. When the meaning of a number of signs has been
ascertained, the rest of the line can be translated in accordance with
it. In this way, the fragments or the signs and words of a line are
becoming notes of a melody, as it were. Harmony was explained by the
Greeks already as the putting together of sherds. Metoro's chants
require the same hermeneutic endeavour that is given to the
interpretation of texts of the ancient literature, but hitherto it was
not believed that they deserve the same attention. Hermeneutic means
here as well as there to discover the hidden meaning. There remains a
'heuristic rest', no doubt, that is inexplicable, but such a rest is
even found in mathematics. The underestimation, and even disregard of
Metoro's chants is partly due to the fact that they do not coincide
with our conception of sound and melody, that means with our
conception of what is logical. This requires even more philological
endeavour and consistent examination of the results. And as in the
case of other cultures it is necessary here to study the language as
well as the oral tradition of the people, to which the texts belong.
This includes the whole Polynesian culture here.
To learn the native idiom of Rapanui I had to my disposal the
vocabulary attached to his book on Easter Island by W. Churchill
(1912), J. Fuentes' grammar and vocabulary, Pater S. Englert's Rapanui
grammatica y diccionario (1978), Stimson's Tuamotu-dictionary (1964),
the Tahiti grammar and dictionary of bishop Jaussen (1949), the
Marquesan grammar and dictionary of Dordillon (1931) and the grammar
of modern Rapanui by V. Du Feu (1996) that contains a small
vocabulary, too. Quite helpful were the grammatical notes in
Fedorova's articles (1965; 1986). Sometimes the comparison with other
Polynesian languages can deliver interesting results, as was shown by
Bierbach/Cain. The proto-polynesian word list, compiled by Biggs and
Walsh (1966), can sometimes be used as an additional dictionary. The
passive voice that is said to be historical by Du Feu (1996: 150) is
frequently used by Metoro.
Many of the words occurring in his chants are not contained in the
dictionaries, either because they are obsolate or because they have
been incorrectly rendered by Jaussen. In these cases cross-checking,
besides asking the natives, is the most promising means to secure
their meaning. The latter way has become quite easy, as some of them
live in Germany, and some of them still know their native language.
In this paper, we shall confine us to the single line of the breast
ornament Rei Miro 2, the seven short lines of the wooden figure of the
New York birdman and the first two lines of the tablet Aruku Kurenga.
All of them have to do with the initiation of boys and girls.
Barthel's opinion that girls are almost never mentioned in the tablets
(1958: 322) has been proved as wrong.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> On Oct 16, 11:36 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I can't deny that irony was part of my intention.
> > Unfortunately, even high quality serious European newspapers may
> > devote space to quite crazy stuff, particularly when it is to do with
> > a distant part of the world about which they know little.
> > I would like to know more particulars about this theory, but I
> > wouldn't go so far as to pay money for it. If you can find out for
> > free, I'll be grateful.
> > But what was it that struck you as convincing about this theory? The
> > last person who was even imagined to have a traditional knowlege of
> > rongorongo was Metoro, whose testimony was taken down by Bishop
> > Jaussen. But this was in the 1870s, long before any tape could have
> > been made. And most people think Metoro was largely faking it. Anybody
> > within the tape recorder era (last half century) who claimed a
> > traditional knowledge of rongorongo would have to be a hoaxer.
>
> The researcher I have in mind might perhaps be
> Egbert Richter-Ushanas from the university of Bremen
> in Germany. Here a very long quote from his website
Thank you. That seems plausible. So the "tapes" were actually notes of
what two old guys (Metoro and Ure Vaeiko) said (on separate occasions)
in the 19th century.
The long quote is enough to suggest what his general approach will
be.
I noticed a short Wikipedia article on him which says:
"Richter has also published various pseudo-scholarly claims, including
decipherment of the Rongorongo, Phaistos Disc and Indus scripts.In his
1992 decipherment claim of the Indus script, he argues that the script
is "based very largely on intuition, and this quality is also required
for reading it", likening the process of "decipherment" to
meditation..."
Ah, Franz, I can see this is a kindred spirit. ;-)
Thanks again for the identification.
Peter T. Daniels
> By the way, you told me for years and years that you have absolutely
> no interest in the Göbekli Tepe, and absolutely no reason to inform
> yourself about the Göbekli Tepe. Why, then, are you showing up
> in here, in a thread about the Göbekli Tepe? Your deliberate ignorance
> doesn't make you an expert.
I have said absolutely nothing about GT. I have noted cases of
unwarranted assumptions and unjustified conclusions, problems in
logic, not evidence.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Oct 16, 11:20 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> > The researcher I have in mind might perhaps be
> > Egbert Richter-Ushanas from the university of Bremen
> > in Germany. Here a very long quote from his website
>
> Thank you. That seems plausible. So the "tapes" were actually notes of
> what two old guys (Metoro and Ure Vaeiko) said (on separate occasions)
> in the 19th century.
>
> The long quote is enough to suggest what his general approach will be.
> I noticed a short Wikipedia article on him which says:
>
> "Richter has also published various pseudo-scholarly claims, including
> decipherment of the Rongorongo, Phaistos Disc and Indus scripts.In his
> 1992 decipherment claim of the Indus script, he argues that the script
> is "based very largely on intuition, and this quality is also required
> for reading it", likening the process of "decipherment" to
> meditation..."
That puts him one up on Steven Roger Fischer, who only claims
Rongorongo and Phaistos!
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>Jesus H. Fucking Christ. Do you not even know what "borrowing" is?
I must admit I don't always agree with Peter T. Daniels, we certainly
have our differences now and then. But what I like about him is his
talent to present controversial ideas, or counter them when others
present them, in such a quite civilised and tactful style, that
nevertheless leaves no room for unclarities of any kind.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
> Thu, 14 Oct 2010 20:29:45 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >Jesus H. Fucking Christ. Do you not even know what "borrowing" is?
>
> I must admit I don't always agree with Peter T. Daniels, we certainly
> have our differences now and then. But what I like about him is his
> talent to present controversial ideas, or counter them when others
> present them, in such a quite civilised and tactful style, that
> nevertheless leaves no room for unclarities of any kind.
In case you've never glanced at a biblical commentary, "Moses" is
borrowed from Egyptian into Hebrew, and "Musa" is borrowed from Hebrew
into Arabic. The name does not have a Semitic etymology.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 14, 12:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 5:59 am, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > This post is full of painfully wrong etymology.
>
> > Which one hurts you most? point it out, and I shall
> > discuss it. I develop a new approach to the language
> > of Ice Age Eurasia, following Richard Fester but
> > going way beyond him, a bottom up approach
> > complementing the top down approach of the
> > comparative method. What they call Proto-Indo-
> > European is a version of Late Magdalenian in my
> > terminology, while Magdalenian is the fully developed
> > form of the Ice Age language. Every believer in the
> > present paradigm, in any scientific field, is hurt by
> > the results of a new paradigm, I can't help that.
> > As for the list of hieroglyphs you ask for; there was
> > one, about a dozen signs, published in a Swiss
> > newspaper, but it's not online. Only a few of many
> > more temples have been excavated so far, but the
> > stone pillar temples A and B and C and D are
> > probably the most important ones, from the earliest
> > period, around 11 600 BP, the inventory of the signs
> > on these pillars gives already a fine idea of what
> > the entire hill was meant for: Klaus Schmidt considers
> > the Göbekli Tepe an equivalent of the Iranian Towers
> > of Silence, while I regard it as the Hill of Creation,
> > relying on my interpretations, and both views go
> > together if you consider the Egyptian pyramids that
> > symbolize the Primeval Hill, the hill rising above the
> > primeval water, and are at the same time funerary
> > monuments, granting a second life in the beyond.
> > Now please point out the worst etymology you find
> > in my post, and I shall discuss it with you.
>
> Dear Franz,
>
> About Gobekli Tepe: It was not an Indo-European language used there,
> for a start. It was Afro-Asiatic. There may very well have been an
> Indo-European language in use in Eurasia thousands of years ago, but
> not at Gobekli Tepe (unless it was spoken by the people who tried to
> smash some of the steles.)
> The writing on one seal from Gobekli Tepe reads very clearly 'M-Sh-He'
> in characters similar to proto-Canaanitic. This is a name very common
> in Afro-Asiatic languages, it is Mose in Egyptian, Musa in Arabic and
Mūsā موسى in Arabic, (with length) and the final ā written with yā',
alif maqṣūra, indicating an older pronounciation as ē .
> Moshe in Hebrew. It means 'son' or 'birth'.
as Peter T. Daniels has said it from an Egyptian word, borrowed into
Hebrew, and then into Arabic.
see: "The Egyptian Origin of Some English Personal Names", Alan H.
Gardiner, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 56, No. 2
(Jun., 1936), pp. 189-197.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/594666
it's likely derived from Egyptian ms "is born" from the verb msy
*mose (reconstructed from Greek transcriptions of names and Coptic),
preceded by a divine name that has been ommitted, thus a common
termination in Egtptian names. the ony trouble is that Hebrew renders
the related word in Ramses with /s/, samekh, rather than /*sh*/,
shin.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> I have said absolutely nothing about GT. I have noted cases of
> unwarranted assumptions and unjustified conclusions, problems in
> logic, not evidence.
You said time and again that you are not interested
in the Göbekli Tepe and have no reason to inform
yourself about the Göbekli Tepe, you made fun of
my "hobby-horse GT," and now, here in this thread
you play the GöbekliTepe zampanoo.
Ross Clark: one can be wright in one case and
rongorongo in another case. As for the Paistos Disc
I follow Derk Ohlenroth in his decipherment (which
Peter Theophil Daniels also found each and every
silly excuse not to even lay a glass eye on) while
I propose a different archaeo-historical interpretation,
and in the case of the Indus seals and tablets I follow
Asko Parpola and then propose a hypothesis of mine.
I just remember that article in Die Zeit which sounded
plausible to me, but apparently I got some things wrong,
there was no tape of two old men who still could read
the texts, but records in written form. I can't have my
focus everywhere, I pick up a lot from the sides of
my field of vision, if you know what I mean.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Oct 14, 9:20 pm, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > Moshe in Hebrew. It means 'son' or 'birth'.
>
> as Peter T. Daniels has said it from an Egyptian word, borrowed into
> Hebrew, and then into Arabic.
> see: "The Egyptian Origin of Some English Personal Names", Alan H.
> Gardiner, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 56, No. 2
> (Jun., 1936), pp. 189-197.
>
> http://www.jstor.org/stable/594666
JSTOR cannot be accessed from a home computer unless you have an
account with an institution that subscribes (or have paid for your own
access). It shows you the first page of the article as a tease.
> it's likely derived from Egyptian ms "is born" from the verb msy
> *mose (reconstructed from Greek transcriptions of names and Coptic),
> preceded by a divine name that has been ommitted, thus a common
> termination in Egtptian names. the ony trouble is that Hebrew renders
> the related word in Ramses with /s/, samekh, rather than /*sh*/,
> shin.-
Not a problem, and very useful for the study of the spelling of
Canaanite words and names in Egyptian.
"Moses" in Hebrew has nothing to do with 'son' or 'birth'; it is given
the folk etymology 'draw out [of the water' -- by the Egyptian
princess, incidentally, who somehow was supposed to know a Hebrew word
but not realize that the child was a Hebrew -- and assigning that
etymology to it could account for the difference in sibilant.
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> Compare. We have a known language, use up until Europeans arrived, and
> a purpose for rongo rongo. Göbekli Tepe "inscriptions" are in an
> unknown language, if they are a form of a language; last use perhaps
> 10k ya, and no possible knowledge of the purpose, beyond decoration.
Decoration? reminds me of Neville Lindsay, a former
member of sci.archaeology who told me that Homer
was a mere entertainer, no historical and archaeological
clues to be expected from him ... There are two problems:
1) Anatolia was and still is (?) a blank in sci.archaeology
- Troy belongs to northwest Anatolia, ergo epics on Troy
can't be relevant, while the Göbekli Tepe belongs to south-
east Anatolia, Anatolia again, irrelevant, and 2) you guys
have no sensibility in reading early texts and visual language
- today we have terabytes for saying nothing, while the
ancient ones had little writing space for saying it all,
so they wrote in a different way, conveying their complex
messages in symbols. The Trojan war was caused by
beautiful Helen. Who can believe that? I do, for Homer's
Helen is a symbol, namely the symbol of - tin, her white
arms are the symbol of tin ingot, her glittering long robes
she made herself are the symbol of the glittering tin ore
cassiterite, and her thread is the symbol of tin wire, by then
cut out of hammered tin foil. Her husband xanthos Menelaos
is the symbol of copper, the color xanthos covering all hues
of copper ore, yellow, brown, red. Their daughter, lovely
Hermione who resembles golden Aphrodite, is the symbol
of bronze, of a golden shine when freshly cast. Menelaos
had a slave woman for a mistress, referring to andrasit,
a natural alloy of copper and zinc, or zinc in enslaved form,
so to say. Their son was strong late come Megapenthes,
the symbol of brass, harder that bronze and arriving late
in the 'family' of metals. The journeys of Odysseus are
dreams. In his dreams he leaves Troy and comes to strange
places - that are nothing but Troy, Troy in disguise and
blended with other places and periods of time. For example
Polyphem, the one-eyed giant who resembles more a wooded
hill than a man who eats bread, is an obvious symbol of Troy,
his head and one eye the acropolis, his body downton Troy VII
that gave protected shelter to 5,000 - 10,000 people, his cave
the harbor of the Besik bay, and his sheep and goats the ships
of foreign sailors, their milk the precious cargo, also and
especially the then most precious tin. Mycenaean bronze
required more tin than modern bronze, twelve or even fifteen
percent. But there is no tin in Greece. Tin came from the Ore
Mountains in Middle Europe and from Central Asia and was
in either case bound to pass Troy where the Troyans laid
hands on the precious cargo - Polyphem milking the sheep
and goats is an appropriate symbol for the cause of the war,
the confiscation of tin turtned into the abduction of beautiful
Helen of the white arms. We have to read early texts in a
different way than modern ones, and we have to develop
a sensibility for visual language as well.
Yusuf B Gursey
thanks.
Jack Linthicum
There is a tin mine in Southwestern Turkey, Homer's Troy story was a
composite of many other stories, all available to him in the form of
the language he spoke and sang in. The tin mine is 60 miles north of
Tarsus and a town or place called Goltepe.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2601_v123
/ai_17067388/
The mine is at Kestel, near the 36th Meridian on this map.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Mūsā موسى in Arabic, (with length) and the final ā written with yā',
> alif maqṣūra, indicating an older pronounciation as ē .
>
> > Moshe in Hebrew. It means 'son' or 'birth'.
>
> as Peter T. Daniels has said it from an Egyptian word, borrowed into
> Hebrew, and then into Arabic.
> see: "The Egyptian Origin of Some English Personal Names", Alan H.
> Gardiner, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 56, No. 2
> (Jun., 1936), pp. 189-197.
>
> http://www.jstor.org/stable/594666
>
> it's likely derived from Egyptian ms "is born" from the verb msy
> *mose (reconstructed from Greek transcriptions of names and Coptic),
> preceded by a divine name that has been ommitted, thus a common
> termination in Egtptian names. the ony trouble is that Hebrew renders
> the related word in Ramses with /s/, samekh, rather than /*sh*/,
> shin.
Rolf Krauss believes that Moses in the Bible was invented
by the Jahwist following the Babylonian exile and modeled
after an ostracized Pharaoh, son of Sethos II and Takhat,
named Amon-Masesa, throne name Masesaya. Amon-
Masesa means: Amon placed him in the world
Amon l'a mis au monde
and Masesaya means: [the god ...] placed him in the world
(or created him)
[le dieu Untel] l'a mis au monde (ou créé)
This goes along with Magdalenian MmOS CA, offspring
MmOS (humming M given as Mm) sky CA. The male triad
of the Göbekli Tepe was AAR RAA NOS Ouranos Varuna
and GIS BAL CA MmOS GISh.BIL.GA.MISh Gilgamesh
and AD DA MAN Adam. The inverse form of MmOS CA,
namely CA MmOS, heavenly CA son MmOS, occurs in
GIS BAL CA MmOS, gesture GIS hot BAL sky CA son
MmOS, the gesturing hotheaded son of the sky. Also
Moses was of a hot temperament, and so was Masesaya.
Baal, another hothead, owes his name to a rump form of
GIS BAL CA MmOS.
I approve of the identification of Moses with Amon-Masesa
who became Pharaoh Masesaya, but contrary to Rolf Krauss
I assume that Moses really existed. I believe in the reality
of the Exodus, only that we have to read the Bible in the same
way as Homer's Odyssey: a book full of symbols. The plagues
that befell Egypt symbolize the impact of the Sea Peoples.
The serpent miracle Aaron performs before Pharaoh indicates
that the Apiru were experts of irrigation and building waterworks,
for the snakes were symbols of water, from the Göbekli Tepe
onward - the snakes heading skyward symbolizing prayers
for rain and the smoke of sacrificial fires imploring rain,
and the snakes heading downward symbolizing falling rain
sent by AAR RAA NOS, a polished form of which is Aaron,
revealing him as believer in the very ancient sky god. The link
between the Göbekli Tepe and the Apiru in northern Egypt
is the culture of Beersheba (see Jean Perrot), from Megiddo
in the north to El Ghassul in the east and the Negev in the south.
Beersheba means: the seven wells. Turn the word around
and you can get: Beer-sheba Sheba-beer Sheb-bir Heb-bir
Apiru and Hebrew ... The population of Chalcolithic Beersheba
consisted of two 'races', the regular Mediterraneans, and
another one that mysteriously arrived, dug a city into the soft
rock, and produced marvellous art akin to the one of pre-
dynastic Egypt, and then mysteriously disappeared in about
the time dynastic Egypt formed - I'd say they came from the
north, from the region of the Göbekli Tepe and AAR RAA NOS
hAAR-RAA-N hARRAN, and then traveled on to northern
Egypt, where, much later, they were called Apiru, led by Aaron
and joined by Masesaya Moses ...
Franz Gnaedinger
The Magdalenian etymology of Beersheba and Apiru is
BIR SAP and SAP BIR respectively, BIR meaning fur, Greek
byrsa 'hide, fur', also the hide of a goat used for storing water,
so that a variation of BIR became Hebrew beer 'well', and
SAP meaning everywhere (in space), here, south and north
of me, east and west of me, under and above me, all in all
seven places, accounting for sheba 'seven', together seven
wells, or rather a title: those who are able to get water from
everywhere, here, in the south and north, in the east and
west, from the depth of the ground and from the sky above,
imploring rain from the sky god AAR RAA NOS who named
Harran / Haran forty kilometers south of the Göbekli Tepe,
home of Abraham whose birthplace was Sanli-Urfa in the
neighborhood of the Göbekli Tepe, Abraham from ABA BRA,
father ABA right arm BRA, he who carries out the will of the
heavenly father with his right arm. The God of the mountain
(Exodus 3 and 4) reveals his true name: Jehova, Jahwe,
from ShA CA, ruler ShA sky CA, heavenly ruler, suiting the
stormgod and 'rider of clouds' from Mount Seir in the Negev.
Now Seir has a stunning parallel in Sseyr, name of Zeus
on the Tiryns face of the Phaistos Disc according to the
decipherment by Derk Ohlenroth, which I derive from TYR
meaning: he who overcomes in the double sense of rule
and give, Magdalenian TYR emphatic Middle Helladic
Sseyr Doric Sseus Homeric Zeus. Also he was originally
a weather god; consider also the Serri bull of the supreme
Hittite weather god. In other words: Jahwe was the Zeus
of the people from Beersheba and of the Apiru of northern
Egypt, he who overcomes in the double sense of rule and
give, and one of his most precious gifts was water ...
His 'colleague' from Yemen might have been 'Attar, god
of natural irrigation via rain, also a storm god, perhaps from
CA TYR, heavenly CA overcomer TYR. A bronze snake
with a male head from Yemen seems to represent a god
of the realm of the wet. Yemenite folklore knows him as
powerful lord of the black clouds and water in the wadis.
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> There is a tin mine in Southwestern Turkey, Homer's Troy story was a
> composite of many other stories, all available to him in the form of
> the language he spoke and sang in. The tin mine is 60 miles north of
> Tarsus and a town or place called Goltepe.
>
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2601_v123/ai_17067388/
>
> The mine is at Kestel, near the 36th Meridian on this map.
>
> http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/gol/ba95.html
There is also a tin mine in Serbia, on the Danube, but it seems
that the Mycenaean tin came from the Ore Mountains in Middle
Europe and from Central Asia. - Ricardo Mansilla from the
Free University of Mexico applied a DNA sequencing program
to the Odyssey and found that this epic assembles material
of at least a dozen or even sixteen bards. Homer gathered
the rich bardic traditions and compiled them in the Odyssey.
I said that Polyphem, the one-eyed giant who resembles more
a wooded hill than a man who eats bread, is a symbol of Troy.
Now if you read the epic you may remember that Odysseus
encounters a similar giant for a second time in his travels
on the sea. The journey of Odysseus are all variations of the
same topic: Odysseus wants to go home, in his dreams
he leaves Troy and comes to strange places, which are Troy
again, Troy in disguise and blended with other periods of time.
This idea, Odysseus leaving Troy and returning to Troy, must
have been very beloved by the bards, they told and sang the
story in many variations, and Homer's genius was to bring
them all together, in an overall story, first he encounters
Polyphem and tells his version of the Trojan war from the
side of the Achaeans, the blinding of Polyphem being
the sacking of Troy, probably in the summer of 1184 BC,
then the story is varied, also the Greeks turn out to be guilty
in one or another way, finally he reaches pleasant Scherie,
an early Troy according to Eberhard Zangger, and realizes
where he is and what a beautiful place he destroyed, or will
destroy on the time level of the narrative, foreseen by
Demodokos 'teacher of people', and he weeps ... Now,
finally, he is released, sleeping deeply, also in his dreams,
he leaves Troy and reaches home in a couple of days.
Back home he goes for another task, making order in his
own house, uniting Greece, symbolized by his arrow shot
through the holes in the handles of nine aligned axes,
a near impossible thing, only achieved by someone like
Odysseus. Bringing the vast material of the bardic traditions
into the form of a coherent story that plays on many levels
and uses dream logic long before Freud was the genuine
contribution of the ingenious bard we call Homer.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 17, 11:09 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mūsā موسى in Arabic, (with length) and the final ā written with yā',
> > alif maqṣūra, indicating an older pronounciation as ē .
>
> > > Moshe in Hebrew. It means 'son' or 'birth'.
>
> > as Peter T. Daniels has said it from an Egyptian word, borrowed into
> > Hebrew, and then into Arabic.
> > see: "The Egyptian Origin of Some English Personal Names", Alan H.
> > Gardiner, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 56, No. 2
> > (Jun., 1936), pp. 189-197.
>
> >http://www.jstor.org/stable/594666
>
> > it's likely derived from Egyptian ms "is born" from the verb msy
> > *mose (reconstructed from Greek transcriptions of names and Coptic),
> > preceded by a divine name that has been ommitted, thus a common
> > termination in Egtptian names. the ony trouble is that Hebrew renders
> > the related word in Ramses with /s/, samekh, rather than /*sh*/,
> > shin.
>
> Rolf Krauss believes that Moses in the Bible was invented
reference?
Ḥarrān originally started with *kh* as shown by ancient
transcriptions. in Aramaic and later Hebrew it changed to /ḥ/ which is
the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative and not a plain h .
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> reference?
Rolf Krauss is a renowned Egyptologist.
I own two books by him, his highly demanding
work on Egyptian astronomy, and the French
version of his book on Moses
# Astronomische Konzepte und Jenseitsvorstellungen
in den Pyramidentexten, Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden,
1997.
# Moïse, le pharaon, traduction de Nathalie Baum,
édition du Rocher, 04/2005, (ISBN 2-268-03781-9)
(original German version from 2001)
> Ḥarrān originally started with *kh* as shown by ancient
> transcriptions. in Aramaic and later Hebrew it changed to /ḥ/ which is
> the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative and not a plain h .
My claim is that AAR RAA NOS was the original
version, while the laryngeal at the begin was added
later on. The Bible calls the place Aram Paddan,
neither Haram nor Caram. The -m might be short
for MAN, AAR RAA MAN, those who carry out the
will of the one composed of air AAR and light RAA
with their right hand MAN, wherefrom Aramaic,
language of the Bible.
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
>
> Ah, Franz, I can see this is a kindred spirit. ;-)
> Thanks again for the identification.
Here is the translation of the text from what
Egbert-Richter-Ushanas calls The Rosetta stone
of the Rongorongo script (hope you found his
website), I am now sure that he was the researcher
mentioned in Die Zeit whose name I couldn't remember.
The take-bird carries the feather-stick,
the take-bird carries the poporo-plant,
the sugarcane is hung up (at the entrance
of the house)for the good thing.
The man with the feather-stick/the Timo
comes to the sacrificial ground,
he goes to the girl lying prostrated on the rock.
He plants the toromiro tree and the gourds
on the earth with the stick, he eats the gourd.
The man with the red string/the Timo does
the particular thing, he goes to the blossoming
plants [like the god Make-make to the gourd],
he goes to the cool girl, [the girl, whose vulva
is small], when she sleeps.
When the sooty tern has come, when it sits
on the egg, when the young bird with the
feather-hat flies to the rock for initiation,
the frigate-bird/the Timo will sit on the young bird.
After the incision of the fish,
after the vulva has been inspected,
after the vulva has been pierced,
after the good thing (the vulva)has been grasped,
the fish and the vulva are carved on the rock.
If the vulva is small, they incise the (sign of the) vulva
on the rock.
The girl's vulva is the navel of the earth,
the girl's vulva is the navel of the earth,
the girl's vulva on the hill, the girl's vulva.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 18, 10:25 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > reference?
>
> Rolf Krauss is a renowned Egyptologist.
> I own two books by him, his highly demanding
> work on Egyptian astronomy, and the French
> version of his book on Moses
>
> # Astronomische Konzepte und Jenseitsvorstellungen
> in den Pyramidentexten, Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden,
> 1997.
>
> # Moïse, le pharaon, traduction de Nathalie Baum,
> édition du Rocher, 04/2005, (ISBN 2-268-03781-9)
> (original German version from 2001)
>
> > Ḥarrān originally started with *kh* as shown by ancient
> > transcriptions. in Aramaic and later Hebrew it changed to /ḥ/ which is
> > the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative and not a plain h .
>
> My claim is that AAR RAA NOS was the original
> version, while the laryngeal at the begin was added
etymologically it is with a *kh*- ; so in *older* versions.
Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) חָרָן ḤArAn ; Akk.Ḫarrānu, Ḫarrāni(m),
"road, crossroads, caravan station". LXX Χαρραν Kharran; Greek Κάῤῥαι
Karrhai; Latin Carrhae.
> later on. The Bible calls the place Aram Paddan,
the alternative name is Paddan Aram (the reverse of what you have);
Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) פַּדָּן אֲרָם PaddAm 'ărAm ; Akk.
padanu "road" and Aramu (Aram) "Syria" a virtual synonym (Enc.
Judaica, BDB)
> neither Haram nor Caram. The -m might be short
> for MAN, AAR RAA MAN, those who carry out the
> will of the one composed of air AAR and light RAA
> with their right hand MAN, wherefrom Aramaic,
> language of the Bible.
first comes Aram "Syria"
S. M. Sullivan
The name has an Afro-Asiatic etymology, and Semitic languages are part
of that group.
S. M. Sullivan
That's because 'mose' in Egyptian does not have the 'sh' sound, it has
the 's' sound.
S. M. Sullivan
Wonderful.
All the languages you have mentioned are Afro-Asiatic, and hence
related.
Christopher Ehret has a book, 'Reconstructing Proto-Afro-Asiatic',
which may prove to be most helpful to the daring epigrapher who
attempts to decipher inscriptions coming out of Gobekli Tepe:
If anyone wants to see the Gobekli Tepe oval seal with the 'm-sh-h'
inscription on it, it is on this page:
http://decipherquarterly.piczo.com/gobeklitepe?cr=2&linkvar=000044
Yusuf B Gursey
that was my point. but as Peter T. Daniels has explained, the change
is explicable through false etymology.
Peter T. Daniels
What are the cognates in Berber and/or Cushitic and/or Omotic and/or
Chadic? Since there isn't one in Semitic, you'd have to find at least
one of those to claim it has an Afroasiatic etymology.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> If anyone wants to see the Gobekli Tepe oval seal with the 'm-sh-h'
> inscription on it, it is on this page:
>
Perhaps you're not aware that four Afroasiatic etymological
dictionaries have been published, and they agree on almost nothing.
(Marcel Cohen, 1948; Chris Ehret's; Orel and Stolbova; and the one
from the team led by Diakonoff that stopped after a few letters).
Yusuf B Gursey
not obvious for Semitic, but here is what the Starling database says:
Afroasiatic etymology :
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ma/ič-
Meaning: child, small boy
Semitic: *ma/it_- 'child' 1, 'twin' 2, 'man, husband, male, grown-up'
3
Egyptian: ms 'child' (pyr)
Central Chadic: *mwaS- 'give birth'
East Chadic: *mič- 'small boy' 1, 'child' 2, 'son' 3
Semitic etymology :
Number: 1819
Proto-Semitic: *ma/it_-
Meaning: 'child' 1, 'twin' 2, 'man, husband, male, grown-up' 3
Akkadian: māšu 2
Ugaritic: mt_ 1 ('infante, niño pequeño' DLU 309)
Argobba: mis 'husband'
Harari: miš 'fellow'
East Ethiopic: miš 'husband, male'
Gurage: miss 'man, husband, male, grown-up'
Egyptian etymology :
Old Egyptian: ms (pyr)
Meaning: 'child'
Coptic: *mas
Akhmimic: mes
Bohairic: mas
Sahidic: mas
Notes: Cf. also msy (pyr) 'give birth'
East Chadic etymology :
Proto-EChadic: *mič-
Meaning: 'small boy' 1, 'child' 2, 'son' 3
Dangla: míčò 1 [Fd]
Migama: mìčá 3, míìčà̀ 2 [JMig]
Bidiya: mičo (m.), miča (f.), miče (pl.) 2 [JBid]
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> etymologically it is with a *kh*- ; so in *older* versions.
>
> Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) חָרָן ḤArAn ; Akk.Ḫarrānu, Ḫarrāni(m),
> "road, crossroads, caravan station". LXX Χαρραν Kharran; Greek Κάῤῥαι
> Karrhai; Latin Carrhae.
>
> Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) פַּדָּן אֲרָם PaddAm 'ărAm ; Akk.
> padanu "road" and Aramu (Aram) "Syria" a virtual synonym (Enc.
> Judaica, BDB)
The earliest record of Harran is on Ebla tablets from
2,300 BC. How is it called there?
I have to correct my information on the Moses book
by Rolf Krauss. My edition at home is this:
Rolf Krauss, MOISE LE PHARAON
Traduit de l'allemand
par Nathalie Baum
Champollion, Editions du Rocher 2000
ISBN 2 268 037819
Franz Gnaedinger
The Hebrews of our time are cleverly greening the Negev
by fixing dunes with netting wire and planting trees in the
deepest points, keeping them wet with little water. In the
wake of SAL MAN Solomon, watery ground of a valley SAL
right hand MAN, he who handles the water in a valley.
Solomon invited the queen of Saba' or Sheba' and tricked
her into drinking a glass of his water, a symbolical tale
indicating that for example the water tunnel of Hiskia (eighth
century BC) under Jerusalem is on a par with the dam in Marib
and earlier irrigation systems in the wadi Dhana in Yemen
from the third Millennium BC onward, while the subterranean
villages in the Negev, for example the one at Safadi near
Beersheba, date to the fourth Millennium BC. Beersheba
means 'seven fountains', from BIR SAP. Magdalenian BIR
means fur, also hide, also the hide of a goat used for scooping
up water from a well or a fountain, which is the reason for
Hebrew beer Aramaic bir 'fountain', named for the goat hide
filled at such a place. SAP means everywhere in space, here,
south and north of me, east and west of me, under and above
me, all in all seven places. BIR SAP Beersheba means then
more accurately: they who find water everywhere, following
their herds; local sources, those in the south and north, east
and west, in the ground and on the hills. Safadi might be
a derivative of SAP PAD, everywhere SAP acitivity of feet
PAD, those who go everywhere following their animals,
in search of grass, and of water. SAP BIR would account
for both the 'apiru or hapiru and Eber or Heber, founding
father of the tribe of the Hebrews according to Genesis
10:24f and 11:14f
SAP BIR hAP-BIR hAPIRu APIRu
SAP BIR hAP-BIR heBeR eBeR
Rolf Krauss and other leading scholars reject the old
equation of the 'apiru and 'ibrim while I propose to
re-evaluate it on the base of my Magdalenian analysis.
The SAP BIR hAP-BIR hAPIRu APIRu could have been
wandering builders of irrigation systems (not unlike the
medieval masons), engineers and strong men who did
the hard work, among them rough guys who served as
mercenaries when out of regular work, which would have
been the reason of their bad reputation. But were they
always treated well themselves? Why did they rebel
against Egypt? They helped building Pithom and Pi-
Ramesse. They were active all along the Fertile Crescent.
And perhaps even in Yemen
SAP BIR SA-BIR SA-Ba' She-Ba'
They were also called SA.GAZ (of unknown pronounciation),
in one case SAG.GAZ, perhaps from SIG GIS, two words
surviving in English sign and gesture, indicating that the
SAP PIR hAP-BIR hAPIRu APIRu used a sign language
when working in a field, a valley, a wadi, communicating
over longer distances. Aaron of the snake miracle fame
proves that they stood in the venerable tradition of the
Göbekli Tepe. The first human in the Bible is called Adam,
from AD DA MAN, toward AD from DA right hand MAN,
he who handles water, making it flow toward one place
while it comes from another place. AD DA turned into
a generic name for a river that flows toward AD the sea
while coming from DA the mountains, present for example
in the name of the river Indus (a ligated form of AD DA).
One might look out for traces of very ancient channels
and ditches in the plain of Adiyaman west of the Göbekli
Tepe.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> If anyone wants to see the Gobekli Tepe oval seal with the 'm-sh-h'
> inscription on it, it is on this page:
>
> http://decipherquarterly.piczo.com/gobeklitepe?cr=2&linkvar=000044
The seal can also be interpreted in another way.
In the middle we see a tree of life, on the right side
(in the seal impression on the left side) a snake heading
upward - indicating prayers for rain, and the smoke of
sacrificial fires imploring rain -, and the small sign on
the other side the foot of a bird, so the seal could refer
to a spring ceremony imploring water - the rain season
of the Göbekli Tepe area was autumn, while spring
was a dry season, spring indicated by the bird foot
indicating the return of migrating birds, as on a tablet
from the Balkans. The tree of life is found again on
Minoan tablets from the hieroglyphic and Linear A
and Linear B variety, phonetic value The, occurring
in Mi-Nu-The, Mi given as head of a bull, Nu given
as visual pun of a bull leaper on the feet hands feet,
and The given as an abstract tree, a long vertical
and on top three short horizontal bars. The Minoans
came from Ebla, not far away from the Göbekli Tepe.
I can identify Mu as remainder of MUC meaning bull,
while I found no Magdalenian root for Nu and The.
The reading given on your link above sounds tempting,
but isn't yet completely satisfying in my opinion.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 18, 2:24 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > etymologically it is with a *kh*- ; so in *older* versions.
>
> > Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) חָרָן ḤArAn ; Akk.Ḫarrānu, Ḫarrāni(m),
> > "road, crossroads, caravan station". LXX Χαρραν Kharran; Greek Κάῤῥαι
> > Karrhai; Latin Carrhae.
>
> > the alternative name is Paddan Aram (the reverse of what you have);
> > Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) פַּדָּן אֲרָם PaddAm 'ărAm ; Akk.
> > padanu "road" and Aramu (Aram) "Syria" a virtual synonym (Enc.
> > Judaica, BDB)
>
> The earliest record of Harran is on Ebla tablets from
> 2,300 BC. How is it called there?
Ḫa-ra-an(ki)
(ki) seems to be a determinative for cities.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 19, 4:28 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 2:24 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > etymologically it is with a *kh*- ; so in *older* versions.
>
> > > Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) חָרָן ḤArAn ; Akk.Ḫarrānu, Ḫarrāni(m),
> > > "road, crossroads, caravan station". LXX Χαρραν Kharran; Greek Κάῤῥαι
> > > Karrhai; Latin Carrhae.
>
> > > the alternative name is Paddan Aram (the reverse of what you have);
> > > Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) פַּדָּן אֲרָם PaddAm 'ărAm ; Akk.
> > > padanu "road" and Aramu (Aram) "Syria" a virtual synonym (Enc.
> > > Judaica, BDB)
>
> > The earliest record of Harran is on Ebla tablets from
> > 2,300 BC. How is it called there?
>
> Ḫa-ra-an(ki)
>
> (ki) seems to be a determinative for cities.
>
>
>
Source: Zeitschrift für Assyriologie und vorderasiatische
Archäologie. Volume 100, Issue 1, Pages 56–85, ISSN (Online)
1613-1150, ISSN (Print) 0084-5299, DOI: 10.1515/ZA.2010.004, /June/
2010
The Expedition of Ebla against Ašdar(um) and the Queen of Ḫarran
by Maria Vittoria Tonietti
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 19, 4:28 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 2:24 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > etymologically it is with a *kh*- ; so in *older* versions.
>
> > > Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) חָרָן ḤArAn ; Akk.Ḫarrānu, Ḫarrāni(m),
> > > "road, crossroads, caravan station". LXX Χαρραν Kharran; Greek Κάῤῥαι
> > > Karrhai; Latin Carrhae.
>
> > > the alternative name is Paddan Aram (the reverse of what you have);
> > > Masoretic Hebrew (Biblical) פַּדָּן אֲרָם PaddAm 'ărAm ; Akk.
> > > padanu "road" and Aramu (Aram) "Syria" a virtual synonym (Enc.
> > > Judaica, BDB)
>
> > The earliest record of Harran is on Ebla tablets from
> > 2,300 BC. How is it called there?
>
> Ḫa-ra-an(ki)
>
> (ki) seems to be a determinative for cities.
>
i.e. *Kh*a-ra-an
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter T. Daniels
> On Oct 18, 11:16 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Oct 18, 5:01 pm, "S. M. Sullivan" <smr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > > On Oct 16, 7:01 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 16, 8:13 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > > > Thu, 14 Oct 2010 20:29:45 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> > > > > <gramma...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
> > > > > >Jesus H. Fucking Christ. Do you not even know what "borrowing" is?
>
> > > > > I must admit I don't always agree with Peter T. Daniels, we certainly
> > > > > have our differences now and then. But what I like about him is his
> > > > > talent to present controversial ideas, or counter them when others
> > > > > present them, in such a quite civilised and tactful style, that
> > > > > nevertheless leaves no room for unclarities of any kind.
>
> > > > In case you've never glanced at a biblical commentary, "Moses" is
> > > > borrowed from Egyptian into Hebrew, and "Musa" is borrowed from Hebrew
> > > > into Arabic. The name does not have a Semitic etymology.
>
> > > The name has an Afro-Asiatic etymology, and Semitic languages are part
> > > of that group.-
>
> > What are the cognates in Berber and/or Cushitic and/or Omotic and/or
> > Chadic? Since there isn't one in Semitic, you'd have to find at least
> > one of those to claim it has an Afroasiatic etymology.
>
> not obvious for Semitic, but here is what the Starling database says:
And if they had reason to suppose the Hebrew word in question was
related, they would have included it.
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data...
>
> Afroasiatic etymology :
>
> Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *ma/ič-
>
> Meaning: child, small boy
>
> Semitic: *ma/it_- 'child' 1, 'twin' 2, 'man, husband, male, grown-up'
> 3
>
> Egyptian: ms 'child' (pyr)
>
> Central Chadic: *mwaS- 'give birth'
>
> East Chadic: *mič- 'small boy' 1, 'child' 2, 'son' 3
>
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data...
>
> Semitic etymology :
>
> Number: 1819
>
> Proto-Semitic: *ma/it_-
>
> Meaning: 'child' 1, 'twin' 2, 'man, husband, male, grown-up' 3
>
> Akkadian: māšu 2
>
> Ugaritic: mt_ 1 ('infante, niño pequeño' DLU 309)
>
> Argobba: mis 'husband'
>
> Harari: miš 'fellow'
>
> East Ethiopic: miš 'husband, male'
>
> Gurage: miss 'man, husband, male, grown-up'
>
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data...
>
> Egyptian etymology :
>
> Old Egyptian: ms (pyr)
>
> Meaning: 'child'
>
> Coptic: *mas
>
> Akhmimic: mes
>
> Bohairic: mas
>
> Sahidic: mas
>
> Notes: Cf. also msy (pyr) 'give birth'
>
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data...
>
> East Chadic etymology :
>
> Proto-EChadic: *mič-
>
> Meaning: 'small boy' 1, 'child' 2, 'son' 3
>
> Dangla: míčò 1 [Fd]
>
> Migama: mìčá 3, míìčà̀ 2 [JMig]
>
> Bidiya: mičo (m.), miča (f.), miče (pl.) 2 [JBid]-
Peter T. Daniels
> The Hebrews of our time
There are no "Hebrews of our time."
> are cleverly greening the Negev
> by fixing dunes with netting wire and planting trees in the
> deepest points, keeping them wet with little water. In the
> wake of SAL MAN Solomon, watery ground of a valley SAL
> right hand MAN, he who handles the water in a valley.
> Solomon invited the queen of Saba' or Sheba' and tricked
> her into drinking a glass of his water, a symbolical tale
> indicating that for example the water tunnel of Hiskia
Hezekiah
> (eighth
> century BC) under Jerusalem
Thus nearly two centuries later than the supposed time of Solomon
[Omitting nonsense about "subterranean villages" and Sumerian]
Peter T. Daniels
> On Oct 19, 4:28 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> > The earliest record of Harran is on Ebla tablets from
> > 2,300 BC. How is it called there?
>
> Ḫa-ra-an(ki)
>
> (ki) seems to be a determinative for cities.
countries -- cities are (uru).
Franz Gnaedinger
http://decipherquarterly.piczo.com/gobeklitepe?cr=2&linkvar=000044
Magdalenian interpretation of the steatite seal from
the Göbekli Tepe, 4 cm high, 2.7 cm wide, 0.7 cm
thick, between 8 800 and 8 000 BC (while the Sinai
inscriptions are from around 1 600 BC)
The birdman of Lascaux can be read as a river map
of the Guyenne (his eye the region of Bordeaux,
his erect phallus the Vézère leading to Montignac
near Lascaux). In early 2005 I reconstructed the title
of the birdman, supreme leader, as GhI ShA AC,
bird (call) GhI ruler ShA expanse of land with water AC.
This would also have been the title of a supreme ruler
of the Göbekli Tepe area, testified to by Isaac in the
Bible, and his son Ja'aqob who left Beersheba and
made for Harran, but was told by the Lord to stay in
Judaea, where he became a minor ruler ShA AC,
accounting for Ja'aqob Jacob Jacques Jack, and for
the title sagan of a governor of Judaea. Now let us
give words to the three signs on the seal, to be read
from right to left, in a seal impression from left to right
shape of a bird flying overhead, also a bird's talon
GhI (imitating the call of a bird)
ruler with raised arms, imploring rain ShA
also the tree of life ASh
a snake heading toward the sky CA symbolizing
prayers for rain, and the smoke of sacrificial fires
imploring rain, while the waving body of the snake
indicates rain falling toward the earth AC filling
the beds of the winding rivers
We have then GhI and ShA / ASh and CA / AC.
If we combine GhI and ShA and AC we obtain the
title of the supreme leader in his role as birdman
(consider also the male figure with a bird for headgear
from Safadi near Beersheba, and the Horus falcon
protecting the head of a seated Chafre in Egypt).
He may have used the seal for marking his possessions,
maybe also his presence at a ritual imploring of rain,
for example on the occasion of a spring festival.
If the link above get's broken, look up the seal via
the original link posted by Sullivan.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> There are no "Hebrews of our time."
There are, if not ethnical descendants of Eber or Heber
then sociological ones, those who are greening the Negev
in the tradition of the 'apiru according to my interpretation
SAP BIR hAP-BIR hAPIRu APIRu
SAP-BIR hAP-BIR heBeR eBeR
> Hezekiah
According to my Biblical atlas Hiskia, Hebrew Hiskija or so.
> Thus nearly two centuries later than the supposed time of Solomon
Solomon is a symbol of the United Kingdom of Israel
and Judaea in the Iron Age, until the Babylonian exile.
> [Omitting nonsense about "subterranean villages" and Sumerian]
[So you know nothing about the subterranean village of Safada
near Beersheba of the Chalcolithic, fourth Millennium BC,
carved in the soft rock of the ground, and the other subterranean
villages in the Negev? And if you know what SA.GAZ and SAG.GAZ
mean, why don't you tell me? If you just belch in brackets but
don't inform me I must assume you don't know and negate my
interpretation out of principle.]
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Ḫa-ra-an(ki)
Then I propose AAR RAA NOS h4AAR-RAA-N h4ARRAN,
h4 being a voiced aspirate laryngeal.
Yusuf B Gursey
ḫ is unvoiced, Harran has always been described by an unvoiced
consonant. and it's not a laryngeal but a post velar, in Aramaic and
Masoretic Hebrew becoming a pharyngeal.
Franz Gnaedinger
Leipzig-Münchener Sumerischer Zettelkasten
Fassung vom 26. 9. 2006
sa-gaz
Westenholz, ECTJ p.16 ad n. 8 / Belege in Nippur
"Wanderarbeiter"
sa-gaz "Wanderarbeiter" (Nippur) is exactly my
interpretation of the 'apiru as wandering builders of
irrigation systems, engineers, and working men who
did the hard jobs, among them rough guys who served
as mercenaries when out of regular work, which would
account for their bad reputation. Those wandering
workers were not unequal the medieval masons, who
gave way to the free masons, many fine people among
them, for example Goethe and Mozart, but some loges
turned into fashist organizations, for example the Italian
P2. The positive term SIG GIS, which I postulate as
alternative name of the 'apiru, could then have been
turned into a negative one, Sumerian sa.gaz 'robbers,
sinew-cutters, head-smiters', but the evidence from
Nippur shows that the term sa-gaz once had a neutral
and positive meaning. You may know of the millions
of wandering workers in China, who suffer from very
hard fates. How many of them will turn into robbers
out of necessity? and will then be used for cementing
a bad image of those legions of wandering workers,
justifying their bad wages and treatment?
Yusuf B Gursey
I couldn't find out but for transcriptions from Eblaitic there is
always a superscript <ki>. maybe you can tell me what it signifies.
Peter T. Daniels
countries.
S. M. Sullivan
Are you not aware that ancient Egyptian is an Afro-Asiatic language?
Peter T. Daniels
Are you not reading the other messages in this thread?
Borrowing a form from a cognate language doesn't make the borrowed
form a cognate. It makes it a borrowing.
And without cognates from other branches of a language family, there
is no way of knowing whether any particular word is itself a native
word or a borrowed word.
When you get around to consulting that book on historical linguistics
that you've never looked at, check out concepts like "doublets." There
are actually pairs of words in languages, one of which is inherited,
the other of which is a borrowing of a word descended from the same
root in a different language. English "skirt" and "shirt" is a well-
known example.
Yusuf B Gursey
> The Hebrews of our time are cleverly greening the Negev
they are "Israelis" or "Jews" not "Hebrews".
> by fixing dunes with netting wire and planting trees in the
> deepest points, keeping them wet with little water. In the
you forgot the Nabateans whom even the Israelis acknowledge as having
done wonders with their irrigation systems, without the benefit of the
knowledge of modern technology.
> wake of SAL MAN Solomon, watery ground of a valley SAL
> right hand MAN, he who handles the water in a valley.
> Solomon invited the queen of Saba' or Sheba' and tricked
> her into drinking a glass of his water, a symbolical tale
> indicating that for example the water tunnel of Hiskia (eighth
Solomon is a 10th century BCE figure.
> century BC) under Jerusalem is on a par with the dam in Marib
the Marib Dam was built much later:
Enc. of Islam II "Marib" by W.W. Müller:
<<
The building of this dam and its sluices was realised under Sumhu`alī
Yanūf, son of Dhamar`alī, who according to von Wissmann is to be dated
approximately around 528 B.C. In G1 513 and G1 514 = CIH 623, two
identical rock-inscriptions placed almost opposite one another, this
Mukarrib of Saba' announces that he has hewn out in the rock the
opening for the reservoir Raḥābum of the main canal of Yasrān, i.e. by
cutting through the contiguous limestone rock of the Djabal Balaḳ al-
Awsaṭ he has built the southern sluice, so that the southern half of
the Mārib oasis can be irrigated from a higher water-level. Although
no inscription in situ is known at the northern sluice which led to
Abyan, the northern half of the Mārib oasis, it can be concluded from
the construction of the southern sluice that the great dam and the
northern sluice too were built by the same Mukarrib, since the entire
complex can only have been executed as a whole, and since the hewing
out of the storage canal Raḥābum at the southern sluice presupposes
the construction of the dam which held back the waters of the wadi.
>>
> and earlier irrigation systems in the wadi Dhana in Yemen
> from the third Millennium BC onward, while the subterranean
> villages in the Negev, for example the one at Safadi near
> Beersheba, date to the fourth Millennium BC. Beersheba
it is בְּאֵר שֶׁבַע bǝ'ēr šeḇa3 meaning "well of seven". "seven"
standing for "oath" so explained in Gen 21:30,31
Greek has Βηρσαβεε Bērsabee . Eusebius translated Beersheba as "well
of swearing". there si indeed a verb in Biblical Hebrew derved from
the root of "seven" <šb3> that means "taking an oath".
<<
30 Abraham answered: "the seven ewe lambs you shall accept from me,
that thus I may have your acknowledgement that the well was dug by
me." 31 This is why the place is called Beer-sheba; the two took
an oath there.
>>
also in Gen 26:31-33
<<
31 That same day Isaac's servants came and brought news about the
well they had been digging; they told him, "We have reached water!" 33
He called it Shibah; hence the name Beersheba to this day.
>>
Shibah is שִׁבְעָה šǝḇ3A which is a proper name derved from the
masculine form of "seven" (morphologically feminine); בְּאֵר bǝ'ēr is
feminine.
from "the New American Bible," 1968.
> means 'seven fountains', from BIR SAP. Magdalenian BIR
"fountain" or rather "spring" is a proposed etymological meaning, the
usage is "well". "fountain" IMO is going beyond the semantic limits of
the word, as it usually denotes an artificial edifice, rather than
soemting that is "dug".
> means fur, also hide, also the hide of a goat used for scooping
> up water from a well or a fountain, which is the reason for
> Hebrew beer Aramaic bir 'fountain', named for the goat hide
Hebrew בְּאֵר bǝ'ēr Aramaic בְּאֵרָא bǝ'ēr-ā or בֵּירָא <byr-'> bêr-
ā
the Exodus has not been found to be based on historical fact.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>When you get around to consulting that book on historical linguistics
>that you've never looked at, check out concepts like "doublets." There
>are actually pairs of words in languages, one of which is inherited,
>the other of which is a borrowing of a word descended from the same
>root in a different language. English "skirt" and "shirt" is a well-
>known example.
Yes. I have some example for Portuguese here:
http://rudhar.com/etymolog/prantoen.htm
I even found a triplet: chanta, plantar, prantar.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> ḫ is unvoiced, Harran has always been described by an unvoiced
> consonant. and it's not a laryngeal but a post velar, in Aramaic and
> Masoretic Hebrew becoming a pharyngeal.
Neolithic in Turkey, The Cradle of Civilization,
New Discoveries, Edited by Mehmet Oezdogan /
Nezih Basgelen, from the chapter The Urfa Region
by Harald Hauptmann:
In this vast diverse environement, besides the extensive
plains of Suruç, Urfa-Harran and of Viransehir, the rather
narrow alluvial bands along the Euphrates, mainly Samsat-
Arapkantara-Lida in the north and Halfeti-Birecit in the west,
were the most favoured habitats of the ancient settlers.
We are not speaking of 2 300 BC (time of Ebla tablets) but
of 10 000 BC or 12 000 BP (time of the earth mound of the
Göbekli Tepe, up to five meters of earth deposited on the
limestone outcrop). The sky god of that era and area, I claim,
was AAR RAA NOS, mind NOS of the one composed of air
AAR and light RAA, visualized ex negative by the big limestone
ring http://www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG He became
Greek Ouranos and Sanskrit Varuna and, in a rump form,
Egyptian Ra, while he named many a valley in western Europe,
e.g. Val d'Aran, Arundel, and Val d'Hérens in the Swiss Alps.
The variation AAR RAA CA, the one composed of air AAR
and light RAA in the sky CA, became muruku of the Indus Valley,
Tamil Murukan, and Horus of the Nile Valley. AAR RAA AD DA
became Harappa, the lord composed of air and light presides
over the city on the river that flows toward AD the sea while
coming from DA the mountains. It is said that Ouranos had
no temple in classical Greece, and he is hardly present in
archaeology, but almost omnipresent in early language ...
The sound rules of the comparative method are dealing with
regular cases within a time horizon of some 6,000 years,
but here we are speaking of 12,000 years, a far wider time
horizon that makes new sound rules emerge, the initial A-
of AAR RAA ... became Ou- Va- ( )- A- Hé- mu- Mu-
Ho- Ha-, so that I would not exclude further shifts including
the one that led from AAR RAA NOS to Harran Haran, the H
ranging from mute in the case of Hérens to regular in the cases
of Horus and Harappa to verging on K in the case of Harran.
Trond Engen
> Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:41:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>
>> When you get around to consulting that book on historical
>> linguistics that you've never looked at, check out concepts like
>> "doublets." There are actually pairs of words in languages, one of
>> which is inherited, the other of which is a borrowing of a word
>> descended from the same root in a different language. English
>> "skirt" and "shirt" is a well-known example.
>
> Yes. I have some example for Portuguese here:
> http://rudhar.com/etymolog/prantoen.htm
>
> I even found a triplet: chanta, plantar, prantar.
Norwegian:
huve "cap, hat, hood, bonnet" (not sure about this, but it looks like a
cognate or parallel formation)
k�pe "(mainly woman's) coat with sleeves" < L.Lat. capa
kappe "large cape or sleeveless coat" < LG < OF
kep, cape "(shoulder) cape" < Eng. cape < Fr.
k�ps, caps "cap" < Eng. cap(s) < OF
kepi "kepi" < Fr. < SwGer k�ppi < Lat. capa
--
Trond Engen
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> you forgot the Nabateans whom even the Israelis acknowledge as having
> done wonders with their irrigation systems, without the benefit of the
> knowledge of modern technology.
I included them when I spoke of the builders of irrigation
systems, itinerant workers or migratory workers, German
Wanderarbeiter, who were active along the Fertile Crescent
and also from Eilat to Yemen, which includes the eastern
shore of the Red Sea with many small dams in the wadis.
> Solomon is a 10th century BCE figure.
Solomon stands for the united kingdom of Israel and Judaea
until the Babylonian exile, and the stories of Solomon in the
Bible show that this little blooming kingdom could take it up
with the surrounding big kingdoms, often in symbolic form.
The builder of the Great Pyramid used a clever method of
combining the royal cubit of 52.36 cm with what I call a set
of Horus cubits, the most important one measuring 33.32 cm,
so that eleven of these Horus cubits equal seven royal cubits.
Solomon used the same idea, his bronze sea had a diameter
of 10 cubits, the circumference a length of 30 cubits, which
would yield a value of 3 for pi. But wise Solomon can't have
been so dull. He used a black cubit of 21 parts and a red cubit
of 22 parts, so that a diameter of 10 black cubits yield 210 parts,
and the circumference of 30 red cubits yield 660 parts, yielding
660 / 210 = 66 / 21 = 22 / 7 for pi. Using the same combined
measures you can easily define also the area of a circle and
the volume of a sphere, moreover the diagonal of a square.
Meaning the architects of Isreal and Judaea could compete
with the ones of Egypt, and may even have been among the
Egyptian builders - the people of Beersheba who disappeared
mysteriously in the time when proto-dynastic Egypt formed ...
> the Marib Dam was built much later:
>
> Enc. of Islam II "Marib" by W.W. Müller:
>
> <<
>
> The building of this dam and its sluices was realised under Sumhu`alī
> Yanūf, son of Dhamar`alī, who according to von Wissmann is to be dated
> approximately around 528 B.C. In G1 513 and G1 514 = CIH 623, two
> identical rock-inscriptions placed almost opposite one another, this
> Mukarrib of Saba' announces that he has hewn out in the rock the
> opening for the reservoir Raḥābum of the main canal of Yasrān, i.e. by
> cutting through the contiguous limestone rock of the Djabal Balaḳ al-
> Awsaṭ he has built the southern sluice, so that the southern half of
> the Mārib oasis can be irrigated from a higher water-level. Although
> no inscription in situ is known at the northern sluice which led to
> Abyan, the northern half of the Mārib oasis, it can be concluded from
> the construction of the southern sluice that the great dam and the
> northern sluice too were built by the same Mukarrib, since the entire
> complex can only have been executed as a whole, and since the hewing
> out of the storage canal Raḥābum at the southern sluice presupposes
> the construction of the dam which held back the waters of the wadi.
There was a long tradition of irrigation systems in wadi Dhana,
from the third Millennium BC onward, as I said. The legendary
queen of Saba' or Sheba' stands for all of them, as wise Solomon
stands for Israel and Judaea in the Iron Age until the Babylonian
exile, or perhaps even for a longer tradition, from the culture of
Beersheba onward, or he personifies the peak of that very ancient
tradition.
> it is בְּאֵר שֶׁבַע bǝ'ēr šeḇa3 meaning "well of seven". "seven"
> standing for "oath" so explained in Gen 21:30,31
Cyrus H. Gordon reads Beersheba as the well (origin) of the number
seven. Traditional etymology gives: seven fountains. Until recently
I followed Gordon, but now, relying on my recent Magdalenian
analysis of the place name, I propose BIR SAP as inverse form
of SAP BIR that would account for 'apiru and 'Eber, founding father
of the Hebrews, designating those who are able to find water
everywhere, as explained several times.
> Greek has Βηρσαβεε Bērsabee . Eusebius translated Beersheba as "well
> of swearing". there si indeed a verb in Biblical Hebrew derved from
> the root of "seven" <šb3> that means "taking an oath".
Magdalenian SAP means everywhere in space, here, south and
north of me, east and west of me, under and above me, all in all
seven places, and if you are taking an oath by all deities you
would invoke all seven places, which is how SAP could also
have become a word for oath - I invoke all deities who are dwelling
here, south and north, east and west, under and above me ...
> 30 Abraham answered: "the seven ewe lambs you shall accept from me,
> that thus I may have your acknowledgement that the well was dug by
> me." 31 This is why the place is called Beer-sheba; the two took
> an oath there.
The seven lambs for the seven places. The number seven plays
a special role in the design of the Great Pyramid (basic ratio of
height and base = 7:11, from this ratio everything can be derived),
which makes me think that people from Beersheba were involved
in Egyptian architecture, going along with the wanderings of
Abraham in the Bible, from Haran to Beersheba to Egypt).
> also in Gen 26:31-33
>
> <<
>
> 31 That same day Isaac's servants came and brought news about the
> well they had been digging; they told him, "We have reached water!" 33
> He called it Shibah; hence the name Beersheba to this day.
>
> >>
>
> Shibah is שִׁבְעָה šǝḇ3A which is a proper name derved from the
> masculine form of "seven" (morphologically feminine); בְּאֵר bǝ'ēr is
> feminine.
>
> from "the New American Bible," 1968.
>
> "fountain" or rather "spring" is a proposed etymological meaning, the
> usage is "well". "fountain" IMO is going beyond the semantic limits of
> the word, as it usually denotes an artificial edifice, rather than
> soemting that is "dug".
Hebrew beer 'fountain' Aramaic bir 'fountain'. I derive these words
from Magdalenian BIR meaning fur, also hide, also the hide of
a goat used for scooping water out of a well or fountain, so the
well or fountain was named for the fur BIR in the specific form
of a goat hide that was filled at such a place.
> Hebrew בְּאֵר bǝ'ēr Aramaic בְּאֵרָא bǝ'ēr-ā or בֵּירָא <byr-'> bêr-
> ā
> the Exodus has not been found to be based on historical fact.
As long as you read the Bible in the way of a modern book of
history. Read it like the Odyssey, as a book full of symbols.
The plagues that befell Egypt symbolize the impact of the
Sea Peoples, and so on. The Trojan war was also considered
not to be historical, for who can believe that such a war was
caused by the abduction of beautiful Helen? Now if you
understand the symbols involved, the family of metals,
Helen of the white arms being the symbol of tin, and there
being no tin in Greece, the Mycenaean tin coming from the
Ore Mountains in Middle Europe and from Central Asia
and having been bound to pass Troy, where the Troyans
laid hands on the precious cargo - if you consider this,
the epics of the Trojan war can well have a foundation in reality.
The same for the Bible. I hope that my Magdalenian
etymologies of many a Biblical name will shed new light
on that book and the history of the Ancient Near East.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Norwegian:
>
> huve "cap, hat, hood, bonnet" (not sure about this, but it looks like a
> cognate or parallel formation)
> kappe "large cape or sleeveless coat" < LG < OF
> kep, cape "(shoulder) cape" < Eng. cape < Fr.
> kepi "kepi" < Fr. < SwGer käppi < Lat. capa
There are two Magdalenian words involved, namely
KOD for a casing, accounting for hood and hat and head
(as casing of the mind), and CAP for hunting or capturing
horses, accounting for Latin caput 'head', referring to the
way of counting a herd of horses, or of cows, etc., by their
heads. The cape 'captures' the body, the cap kepi Kappe
'captures' the head, and the caput 'head' 'captures' the mind,
as the head encloses the mind. CAP also accounts for
Latin habere English have German haben (the Latin and
Germanic versions incompatible in PIE but well compatible
in the light of Magdalenian - what you capture you have).
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 19, 6:54 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ḫ is unvoiced, Harran has always been described by an unvoiced
> > consonant. and it's not a laryngeal but a post velar, in Aramaic and
> > Masoretic Hebrew becoming a pharyngeal.
>
> Neolithic in Turkey, The Cradle of Civilization,
> New Discoveries, Edited by Mehmet Oezdogan /
> Nezih Basgelen, from the chapter The Urfa Region
> by Harald Hauptmann:
>
> In this vast diverse environement, besides the extensive
> plains of Suruç, Urfa-Harran and of Viransehir, the rather
> narrow alluvial bands along the Euphrates, mainly Samsat-
> Arapkantara-Lida in the north and Halfeti-Birecit in the west,
probably a typo for Birecik [Bire*dj*ik]
> were the most favoured habitats of the ancient settlers.
>
> We are not speaking of 2 300 BC (time of Ebla tablets) but
> of 10 000 BC or 12 000 BP (time of the earth mound of the
> Göbekli Tepe, up to five meters of earth deposited on the
> limestone outcrop). The sky god of that era and area, I claim,
> was AAR RAA NOS, mind NOS of the one composed of air
> AAR and light RAA, visualized ex negative by the big limestone
> ring http://www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG He became
> Greek Ouranos and Sanskrit Varuna and, in a rump form,
> Egyptian Ra, while he named many a valley in western Europe,
it's Ra` or Re` with a phryngeal voiced fricative at the end.
> e.g. Val d'Aran, Arundel, and Val d'Hérens in the Swiss Alps.
> The variation AAR RAA CA, the one composed of air AAR
> and light RAA in the sky CA, became muruku of the Indus Valley,
> Tamil Murukan, and Horus of the Nile Valley. AAR RAA AD DA
> became Harappa, the lord composed of air and light presides
> over the city on the river that flows toward AD the sea while
> coming from DA the mountains. It is said that Ouranos had
> no temple in classical Greece, and he is hardly present in
> archaeology, but almost omnipresent in early language ...
> The sound rules of the comparative method are dealing with
> regular cases within a time horizon of some 6,000 years,
well, if you say "anything goes" then your theories are not
falsfifiable or verifiable, and hence not scientific.
> but here we are speaking of 12,000 years, a far wider time
> horizon that makes new sound rules emerge, the initial A-
> of AAR RAA ... became Ou- Va- ( )- A- Hé- mu- Mu-
> Ho- Ha-, so that I would not exclude further shifts including
> the one that led from AAR RAA NOS to Harran Haran, the H
> ranging from mute in the case of Hérens to regular in the cases
> of Horus and Harappa to verging on K in the case of Harran.
it's Ḥōr <ḥr> with an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative in the beginning
in Ancient Egyptian.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 19, 6:54 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ḫ is unvoiced, Harran has always been described by an unvoiced
> > consonant. and it's not a laryngeal but a post velar, in Aramaic and
> > Masoretic Hebrew becoming a pharyngeal.
>
> Neolithic in Turkey, The Cradle of Civilization,
> New Discoveries, Edited by Mehmet Oezdogan /
it's Özdoğan (unless he has settled in Germany)
> Nezih Basgelen, from the chapter The Urfa Region
Başgelen
> by Harald Hauptmann:
Italo
Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:
> The Hebrews of our time are cleverly greening the Negev
> by fixing dunes with netting wire and planting trees in the
> deepest points, keeping them wet with little water.
<snip>
http://www.amnesty.ie/how-you-can-help/will-you-help-us-get-water-flowing
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/israel-rations-palestinians-trickle-water-20091027
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israel-must-allow-palestinians-access-adequate-water-supplies-2010-03-19
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=69099
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=68622
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=64409
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=69558
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=68485
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=69910
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=68743
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=70811
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=70817
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=59930
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=61661
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=60246
etc.
--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s
V i v a H A M A S ! V i v a P A L E S T I N A !