Albnian numbers - njëzet (one time ten) = twenty!
Dušan Vukotić
1x10 = 20; 2x10 = 40
If you think this calculation is wrong, go to Albania and you find it
all okay!
Albanian is the only language in the world were twenty is not two time
ten but one time ten!
One of the key evidences that Albanians borrowed foreign words
according to their hearing and (mis)understanding are the Albanian
numbers.
Number 'one' is 'një' and this number is in accordance with the other
IE languages.
Number 'ten' is 'dhjetë' - OK
Number 'eleven' is 'njëmbëdhjetë' (borrowed Slavic structure 'jedan-na-
deset', 'dva-na-deset' one-on-ten, two-on-ten; Albanian twelve is
'dymbëdhjetë').
Tridhjetë is thirty in Albanian (Serbian tri-deset - tree time ten)
and it is correct;
Now we are encountering the serious difficulties, namely, Albanian
twenty is not dy-dhjetë (dy = two; two time ten) as we could have
normally expected but një-zet; i.e. one time ten!!!
In Albanian 1x10 = 20 (interesting, is it not?!!!)
Obviously, Albanians borrowed Serbian/Slavic 'deset' (ten; not Romance
dec-, dez-, dix-) and the suffix -zet confirms it very picturesquely;
like in Serbian colloquial 'dva'set', 'tri'set' instead of dva-de-set,
tri-de-set (twenty, thirty).
Finally, in Albanian two time ten is forty (2x10=40)
Albanian dyzet (forty); i.e. dy (two) time -zet (ten) is dyzet
(forty).
Nevertheless, Albanians seem to have noted that 'dyzet' might be
incorrectly acquired, and they added 'katërdhjetë' - just in case ;-)
DV
phog...@abo.fi
Dušan Vukotić
> You are a very bad man, Dushan.
My evidences are terrible unrelenting towards anybody's suffering ;-)
Albanian was not originally IE language.
You must be as stupid as Lubotsky and G. Starostin are to believe in
Paleo-Squip-Illyrian "linguistic citadel" fixed (ideologically)
somewhere between earth and sky.
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
Dushan's stupidity is endless and dangerous. Alb -zet as a bound
morpheme has the meaning 'twenty', as one could notices from: një-zet
'one twenty', dy-zet 'two twenty', tre-zet 'three twenty', even katër-
zet 'four twenty'. In his sick mind he saw Alb një-zet as 1x10 = 20!?
As every linguist knows, vigesimal system was characteristic for pre-
PIE languages, so it is a clear trace of such system of numbering on
Albanian. Suffering from complex of inferiority that Albanians are
descendants of Illyrians and Serbians are newcomers on this part of
the world (6 or 7 centuries after Christ) and they represent nothing
and no one for the ancient history of South Europe, he is ready to act
like a crazy person with very high bestiality like we are obliged to
tame him through basic education on linguistics and history.
I think it is a time to close up his closet, for it is too much
stinking.
I am sorry for such hard words, but really he didn't deserves nothing
better.
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
What an explication! Why would any one say 'one twenty"?
Of course, Albanians undrstood një-zet as another ten in addition (ten
+ (one) ten = twenty.
The fact is, there is no Albanian word 'zet' with the meaning
'twenty'.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
>
> Dushan's stupidity is endless and dangerous.
Earth goes around Sun, once in every year. Water is wet and it is good
to drink if you are thirsty. The Pope is a Catholic and lives in Rome.
Two and two make four.
António Marques
> What an explication! Why would any one say 'one twenty"?
Duh. Why would anyone say 'a dozen'?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Dušan Vukotić
> Two and two make four.
However, you would hardly find anywhere in the world that 1x10 makes
20
Abdulah and any one who is trying to say that I am talking nonsense
should go and consult the Romanian dictionary.
Romanian 'zece' is 10
Romanina 'două-zeci' is 20 or 2x10=20
Compare Czech dva-cet; Serbian dva(de)set, Russian dva-catj
Only Albanian has 'dy-zet' meaning 2x20 =40; do you know why?
There is no one in the world who would be able to explain it in a
different way than I already have "revealed" it to "urbi et orbi" ;-)
DV
P.S.
I bet that Abdullah would not dare to continue this correspondence; it
really became too_dangerous_for him, his Shquip-Illyrian mentors and
their invented (non/never-existent) Proto-Albanian and Proto-Illyrian
Dušan Vukotić
While counting something normally, would you say 18, 19 -- "one
twenty" or just 20 (twenty). I was not talking here about the use of
articles in a normal conversation.
Abdullah is trying to explain Albanian -zet with the help of
vigesimal system, but if you want to talk about the system which is
allegedly based on the number twenty, you must have that number at
least for a start. Albanian is missing number 20... and have instead
number "one ten" (additional ten, 1x10).
DV
phog...@abo.fi
Vigesimal numbering systems are common and frequent both in Europe and
in other countries. They are found at least in French, Basque, Danish,
Breton, Irish, Welsh, and Georgian.
phog...@abo.fi
> On Aug 6, 2:28 pm, phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
>
> > Two and two make four.
>
> However, you would hardly find anywhere in the world that 1x10 makes
> 20
As the learned expert Abdullah is, he took the trouble of explaining
to you what a vigesimal numbering system is. As the thoroughly bad man
you are, you pretend not to understand his explanation. Get it into
your head that any person of education and goodwill will take sides
for Abdullah and against you. If you do not understand why, that is
solely because you are a bad man, and cannot even imagine how it feels
to be a good and righteous man.
To Abdullah I say only, that I am too busy to learn his profoundly
interesting and fascinating language. As regards Serbian, I
regrettably enough already understand it more than I would like to.
Abdullah Konushevci
Because you are a big liar, I will cite and others will probably read
it: zet num. 'twenty'. From PAlb *w(i)džati etymologically identical
with IE *wik'mti 'id.': Skt vimśati-, Gk eikosi, Lat viginti (Bopp
512; Camarda I 170; Meyer Wb 483). Xylander 306; Meyer Alb. St. II 24,
III 17,23; Pedersen KZ XXXVI 338, Kelt. Gr. I 186; Jokl IF XXXVI 101,
LKUBA 103, Reallex. Vorgesch. I 91; Bariç Hymje 35, n. 2; La Piana
Studi I 22,40; Pisani Saggi 133; Cimochowski LP II 232; Frisk I
453-454; Walde-Hofmann II 1788-789; Mayrhofer III 199-200; Pokorny I
1177; Huld 133-134; Hamp KZ LXXVII 252, n.1 (z- as a reflex of
*wik'-), Numerals 900, 919, Festsch. Shevoroshkin 95-96; Çabej
ZfPhonetik IX 207 f. (from *iug-t- related to *iuogom 'yoke'), St. II
318-319; Szemerényi Numerals 165; Huld 133-134; Orel FLH VIII/1-2 41
(on the development of *wdž- > z-), ZfBalk XXIII 144, IF XCIII 103;
Demiraj AE 425 (Vladimir Orel, Albanian Etymological Dictionary, pp.
521).
Konushevci
António Marques
> On Aug 6, 3:33 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>> What an explication! Why would any one say 'one twenty"?
>> Duh. Why would anyone say 'a dozen'?
>
> twenty" or just 20 (twenty). I was not talking here about the use of
> articles in a normal conversation.
How do you count from 99 to 101 in english? Or from 999 to 1001?
> Abdullah is trying to explain Albanian -zet with the help of
> vigesimal system, but if you want to talk about the system which is
> allegedly based on the number twenty, you must have that number at
> least for a start. Albanian is missing number 20... and have instead
> number "one ten" (additional ten, 1x10).
I suppose the fact that -zet does have the meaning 'twenty' everywhere
it appears, and nowhere the meaning 'ten', is nothing to you.
Dušan Vukotić
> As the learned expert Abdullah is, he took the trouble of explaining
> to you what a vigesimal numbering system is.
Yes, he would have explained everything if he had just found the
number 20 inside the Albanian vocabulary ;-)
> As the thoroughly bad man
> you are, you pretend not to understand his explanation.
To understand...what? Vigesimal reckoning without the number 20?
> Get it into
> your head that any person of education and goodwill will take sides
> for Abdullah and against you.
Are you trying to introduce argumentum ad hominem as a valid "concept"
in a scientific discourse? Do not be silly!
> If you do not understand why, that is
> solely because you are a bad man, and cannot even imagine how it feels
> to be a good and righteous man.
"Bad" or "good" (man) are attributes suitable for the women quarreling
in the market. Ridiculous!
> To Abdullah I say only, that I am too busy to learn his profoundly
> interesting and fascinating language. As regards Serbian, I
> regrettably enough already understand it more than I would like to.
Why "regrettably"? Your hatred made you completely blind - now you
started to hate the Serbian language! Unbelievable! What a psychopath!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > On Aug 6, 3:33 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> >> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> >>> What an explication! Why would any one say 'one twenty"?
> >> Duh. Why would anyone say 'a dozen'?
>
> > While counting something normally, would you say 18, 19 -- "one
> > twenty" or just 20 (twenty). I was not talking here about the use of
> > articles in a normal conversation.
>
> How do you count from 99 to 101 in english? Or from 999 to 1001?
>
> > Abdullah is trying to explain Albanian -zet with the help of
> > vigesimal system, but if you want to talk about the system which is
> > allegedly based on the number twenty, you must have that number at
> > least for a start. Albanian is missing number 20... and have instead
> > number "one ten" (additional ten, 1x10).
>
> I suppose the fact that -zet does have the meaning 'twenty' everywhere
> it appears, and nowhere the meaning 'ten', is nothing to you.
Are you sure you know what are you trying to say? There is no number
"zet" in Albanian, and your talking about "meanings" is meaningless!
In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
cat or Romanian două-zeci...
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
Why don't you take some grammar to read it carefully and to make clear
to yourself what is morpheme, be it bound or free one, and what is
suffix, prefix, infix. You will preserve to us more time.
ALb një 'one' + zet 'twenty' makes it 'one twenty or twenty', till dy
'two' + zet > dyzet 'to twenty or fourty', tre 'three' + zet > trezet
'three twenty or sixty', like one hundred, two hundred, etc.
Konushevci
António Marques
> On Aug 6, 6:12 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>> On Aug 6, 3:33 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>>>> What an explication! Why would any one say 'one twenty"?
>>>> Duh. Why would anyone say 'a dozen'?
>>> While counting something normally, would you say 18, 19 -- "one
>>> twenty" or just 20 (twenty). I was not talking here about the use of
>>> articles in a normal conversation.
>> How do you count from 99 to 101 in english? Or from 999 to 1001?
How do you count from 99 to 101 in english? Or from 999 to 1001?
>>> Abdullah is trying to explain Albanian -zet with the help of
>>> vigesimal system, but if you want to talk about the system which is
>>> allegedly based on the number twenty, you must have that number at
>>> least for a start. Albanian is missing number 20... and have instead
>>> number "one ten" (additional ten, 1x10).
>> I suppose the fact that -zet does have the meaning 'twenty' everywhere
>> it appears, and nowhere the meaning 'ten', is nothing to you.
>
> Are you sure you know what are you trying to say? There is no number
> "zet" in Albanian, and your talking about "meanings" is meaningless!
So let's see:
- In albanian, one-zet = 20, two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60.
- You fail to relise that if '1-something' = 20, '2-something' = 40 and
'3-something'=60, then obviously* '-something'=20.
(*) Notice the justified employment of 'obvious'.
- Since [zetS^] is 10 in romanian, you decide that albanian -zet must
mean 10.
- You then complain that not only albanians had to borrow their 'ten'
from someone else - never mind that albanian does have a native 10... -,
they formed their 'twenty' from '1 times borrowed-ten'.
- The good question is why anyone still spends time arguing with you.
- The next best question is why don't you move to Albania if you have
such an interest in their language.
> In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
> cat or Romanian două-zeci...
But of course. And the evidence for that is?
Dušan Vukotić
Once again: -zet is suffix or a "bound morpheme" as you said yourself
in one of your previous messages (are you a liar too?) and it cannot
be taken as a separate word like it was the case in Romanian
'zece' (but in Romanian it has logical meaning - ten; două-zeci =
twenty).
This fact is indeniable: there is no Albanian word 'zet' with the
meaning 'twenty'!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Because -zet is a borrowing from Slavic and Slavic dva-cat, tri-cat..
can be taken as suffix, although it is a shortened form of the number
ten (de-set, de-sjat)... but does not matter if -zet is treated as
suffix or as a bound morpheme it is not and it never had the meaning
of the number tventy in Albanian. Twenty is një-zet and it means "one
ten" (probably one additional ten on the ten that was counted
previously ten + one ten = twenty.
Of course, this is very unusual way of counting that shows that
Albanian acquired foreign words according to the understanding or
misunderstanding among Albanian newcomers who listened the speech in
"neighborhood" 8-9 centuries ago.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> So let's see:
>
> - In albanian, one-zet = 20, two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60.
There is no Albanian 'one-zet' but 'njëzet'; if isolated -zet would
mean nothing
> - You fail to relise that if '1-something' = 20, '2-something' = 40 and
> '3-something'=60, then obviously* '-something'=20.
> - Since [zetS^] is 10 in romanian, you decide that albanian -zet must
> mean 10.
Of course, it must mean ten - check the other IE languages!
> - You then complain that not only albanians had to borrow their 'ten'
> from someone else - never mind that albanian does have a native 10... -,
> they formed their 'twenty' from '1 times borrowed-ten'.
I am not complaining because I know what I am talking about.
> - The good question is why anyone still spends time arguing with you.
Have I asked you to "argue" with me? What the forums are made for if
not for arguing? Where do you live?
> - The next best question is why don't you move to Albania if you have
> such an interest in their language.
Why not!
> > In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
> > cat or Romanian două-zeci...
>
> But of course. And the evidence for that is?
You have all IE languages at your disposal; but it seems you do not
know how to use them.
DV
António Marques
>> So let's see:
>>
>> - In albanian, one-zet = 20, two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60.
>
> There is no Albanian 'one-zet' but 'njëzet'; if isolated -zet would
> mean nothing
Oh, so '-teen' in nineteen means nothing? '-ty' in ninety?
>> - You fail to relise that if '1-something' = 20, '2-something' = 40 and
>> '3-something'=60, then obviously* '-something'=20.
>
>
>> - Since [zetS^] is 10 in romanian, you decide that albanian -zet must
>> mean 10.
>
> Of course, it must mean ten - check the other IE languages!
1) Why should its meaning be tied to its hypothetical cognates, and 2)
why are you looking for cognates if you say it's borrowed?
>> - You then complain that not only albanians had to borrow their 'ten'
>> from someone else - never mind that albanian does have a native 10... -,
>> they formed their 'twenty' from '1 times borrowed-ten'.
>
> I am not complaining because I know what I am talking about.
You've certainly been shown not to (cf. the only point above you didn't
reply to).
>> - The good question is why anyone still spends time arguing with you.
>
> Have I asked you to "argue" with me? What the forums are made for if
> not for arguing?
Arguing should be meaningful.
> Where do you live?
Why do you wish to know?
>> - The next best question is why don't you move to Albania if you have
>> such an interest in their language.
>
> Why not!
You tell me! I'm not the one onsessed with albanian. If I'd spend any
time with it, it would be, with all due respect, to devise a better
orthography.
>>> In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
>>> cat or Romanian două-zeci...
>> But of course. And the evidence for that is?
>
> You have all IE languages at your disposal; but it seems you do not
> know how to use them.
I'm sorry, but grabbing whatever words they might have to guess at the
history of a related-or-unrelated word in another language is your
hobby, not mine.
What's the evidence for -zet having anything to do with -zecei*? NB
-zecei is from -deke.
(*) <-cei> being my spelling for trad. <-ci>, since I use <ci> for
[ts(i)] (trad. t-comma).
phog...@abo.fi
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> On Aug 6, 5:05 pm, phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
>
> > As the learned expert Abdullah is, he took the trouble of explaining
> > to you what a vigesimal numbering system is.
>
> Yes, he would have explained everything if he had just found the
> number 20 inside the Albanian vocabulary ;-)
He is indeed a learned and venerable man and justly respected by all
those people whose respect counts.
>
> > As the thoroughly bad man
> > you are, you pretend not to understand his explanation.
>
> To understand...what? Vigesimal reckoning without the number 20?
But of course the Albanian language has the number 20, it is this
njëzec, if I remember correctly.
> > Get it into
> > your head that any person of education and goodwill will take sides
> > for Abdullah and against you.
>
> Are you trying to introduce argumentum ad hominem as a valid "concept"
> in a scientific discourse? Do not be silly!
In this particular instance argumentum ad hominem is a valid concept,
because your behaviour, which it would be an offence against honest
barbarians to call barbarian, has showed you not only be deficient of
intellectual , but also lacking in elementary human qualities. Any
religion and any code of ethics would gladly call any jihad or crusade
righteous, if that jihad or that crusade would be against you. You
are, pure and simple, an extremely bad man, by any moral standard.
>
> > If you do not understand why, that is
> > solely because you are a bad man, and cannot even imagine how it feels
> > to be a good and righteous man.
>
> "Bad" or "good" (man) are attributes suitable for the women quarreling
> in the market. Ridiculous!
You are such a bad man that no other word quite conveys the idea. Like
a man facing the spectacle of Devil himself, I stand here in the dead
desert of pure evil, where all those long and fancy words lose their
sense and I am left with nothing else than the elementary concepts,
such as "badness".
>
> > To Abdullah I say only, that I am too busy to learn his profoundly
> > interesting and fascinating language. As regards Serbian, I
> > regrettably enough already understand it more than I would like to.
>
> Why "regrettably"? Your hatred made you completely blind - now you
> started to hate the Serbian language! Unbelievable! What a psychopath!
There is no Serbian language. There are only different variants of
Cultured Literary Neo-Shtokavian. One of those varieties is called
Serbian by bad men.
> DV
Dušan Vukotić
> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> >> So let's see:
>
> >> - In albanian, one-zet = 20, two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60.
>
> > There is no Albanian 'one-zet' but 'njëzet'; if isolated -zet would
> > mean nothing
>
> Oh, so '-teen' in nineteen means nothing? '-ty' in ninety?
Of course, as separated words they would mean nothing. The words
teen(s) and teenage cannot be taken as an example for the meaning of -
teen, I hope you understand why.
> >> - You fail to relise that if '1-something' = 20, '2-something' = 40 and
> >> '3-something'=60, then obviously* '-something'=20.
>
> >> - Since [zetS^] is 10 in romanian, you decide that albanian -zet must
> >> mean 10.
Follow the development of similar -teen "suffixes" in different satem
and centum languages. There is no other possibility, -zet can be only
'ten' or 'hundred'! It does not demand a great wisdom to understand
it.
> > Of course, it must mean ten - check the other IE languages!
>
> 1) Why should its meaning be tied to its hypothetical cognates, and 2)
> why are you looking for cognates if you say it's borrowed?
Who is talking about cognates? It is a common law in all IE languages
except Albanian! Albanian -zet (just to tell you once again) could be
only ten or hundred in satem IE. It cannot be twenty even in the most
fantastic dream!
> >> - You then complain that not only albanians had to borrow their 'ten'
> >> from someone else - never mind that albanian does have a native 10... -,
> >> they formed their 'twenty' from '1 times borrowed-ten'.
>
> > I am not complaining because I know what I am talking about.
>
> You've certainly been shown not to (cf. the only point above you didn't
> reply to).
You mean Albanian number ten 'dhjetë'? It is not native, it is also
borrowed. Albanian native words are non-IE words. I have nothing to
add, because I already told in my first message that dhjetë "is OK".
The problem is growing with the number njëzet (after nëntëmbëdhjetë).
> >> - The good question is why anyone still spends time arguing with you.
>
> > Have I asked you to "argue" with me? What the forums are made for if
> > not for arguing?
>
> Arguing should be meaningful.
Therefore, you have the privilege to chose with whom you are going to
"argue"; naturally, in accordance to your personal interests.
> > Where do you live?
> Why do you wish to know?
Do you not see? I asked it metaphorically!
> >> - The next best question is why don't you move to Albania if you have
> >> such an interest in their language.
>
> > Why not!
>
> You tell me! I'm not the one onsessed with albanian. If I'd spend any
> time with it, it would be, with all due respect, to devise a better
> orthography.
I am not obsessed (you probably mistyped that word) with Albanian at
all. For two hundred years linguistic science is trying to find the
truth about development of languages; and now some people like
Lubotsky and G. Starostin come up with the idea to promote the new
"ancestor" of IE - in this case it is invented and non/nevre existed
Illyrian. Of course, I cannot allow those charlatans to delude
audience (scientific and general public) with their newest tricks and
jokes.
> >>> In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
> >>> cat or Romanian două-zeci...
> >> But of course. And the evidence for that is?
> > You have all IE languages at your disposal; but it seems you do not
> > know how to use them.
>
> I'm sorry, but grabbing whatever words they might have to guess at the
> history of a related-or-unrelated word in another language is your
> hobby, not mine.
>
> What's the evidence for -zet having anything to do with -zecei*? NB
> -zecei is from -deke.
The majority of today's citizens of Romania are romanized Slavs. It is
the reason why the Romanian kept so much Slavic words; it means that
Slavism are native words in Romanian ;-)
Romanian -zeci cannot be derived from -deki because such phonetic
changes belong to the domain of SF (două-zeci <= dva-cat; Russian dva-
cać; Serbian dva(de)-set, dva'-set)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
I think you have misunderstand me: I have nothing against your and
Abdullah's love. On the contrary, I wish you all the best!
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
> On Aug 6, 8:43 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
> > Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> I am not obsessed (you probably mistyped that word) with Albanian at
> all. For two hundred years linguistic science is trying to find the
> truth about development of languages; and now some people like
> Lubotsky and G. Starostin come up with the idea to promote the new
> "ancestor" of IE - in this case it is invented and non/nevre existed
> Illyrian. Of course, I cannot allow those charlatans to delude
> audience (scientific and general public) with their newest tricks and
> jokes.
>
> DV
Claiming that Lubotsky and G. Starostin are charlatans and you, Dušan
Vukotic, are scientist, is a proof that everyone on this forum should
show due respect to your madness.
Konushevci
Dušan Vukotić
electronc PIE dictionaries concerning Greek 'amaurobios' (alleged
kinship between that word and Alb.mjegull fog), Albanian cow (lopë
which is pulled out from the Latin "cow-eating" stomach of lupus) I
had no other choice but to conclude that such a crap was written by
Lubotsky and G. Starostin.
Lubotsky and G. Starostin also wrote
- that Albanian 'afronj' (bring close, squeeze) and afër (near) are
"similar to formation" of Slavic 'bliz?' (nigh, near)
- that Vesta “goddess of hearth and its sacred fire” was an Illyrian
goddess, and related to Alb. vatra (hearth); and that the word 'vatra'
appeared from invented Proto-Albanian *vastra, although everyone can
see that Alb. vatra is a borrowing from Slavic 'vatra' (fire) - In
Slavic, 'vatra' is etymologically transparent and it is related to
Latin 'flagro' (blaze, burn, flame); Serbian 'barenje/varenje/
vrenje' (boiling, welding; from 'ba-l-Hrenje'; cf. Serb.
'borenje' (fighing; from bor-H-enje) and 'vatra' fire; English 'war',
and 'fire' are logically coming from the same basis...as Serbian
'purenje' (burning), 'prženje' (roasting, burning)
- they (Lubotsky and G. Starostin) tried to connect Al.b. shkëndijë
(spark) with the Slavic 'iskra' (spark), not seeing that it is
impossible to do and they invented many other "derivations" in a
flamboyant style of an adolescent folk-etymologist.
There are a lot of similar stupidities these two people have written
in their latest electronic edition of Pokorny's Dictionary and for
that they deserved to be called charlatans.
I analyzed their imbecilities more precisely in my earlier messages
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/browse_frm/thread/aac63c2ad00...
DV
António Marques
> On Aug 6, 8:43 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>>> So let's see:
>>>> - In albanian, one-zet = 20, two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60.
>>> There is no Albanian 'one-zet' but 'njëzet'; if isolated -zet would
>>> mean nothing
>> Oh, so '-teen' in nineteen means nothing? '-ty' in ninety?
>
> Of course, as separated words they would mean nothing. The words
> teen(s) and teenage cannot be taken as an example for the meaning of -
> teen, I hope you understand why.
What's the relevance of your digression to 'In albanian, one-zet = 20,
two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60'?
Can't you see it's an analogue of 'In english, 2-ty=20, 3-ty=30,
4-ty=40', from which one gets that english -ty is 10, JUST LIKE one gets
that albanian -zet is 20?
It's first grade math, you know.
>>>> - You fail to relise that if '1-something' = 20, '2-something' = 40 and
>>>> '3-something'=60, then obviously* '-something'=20.
>>>> - Since [zetS^] is 10 in romanian, you decide that albanian -zet must
>>>> mean 10.
>
> Follow the development of similar -teen "suffixes" in different satem
> and centum languages.
But how do you get from albanian not being IE to its -zet having
'similar -teen suffixes in different satem and centum languages'?
> There is no other possibility, -zet can be only
> 'ten' or 'hundred'!
WHY?
> It does not demand a great wisdom to understand
> it.
>
>>> Of course, it must mean ten - check the other IE languages!
>> 1) Why should its meaning be tied to its hypothetical cognates, and 2)
>> why are you looking for cognates if you say it's borrowed?
>
> Who is talking about cognates?
You. Why else send one looking for words in 'the other IE languages'?
> It is a common law in all IE languages
> except Albanian! Albanian -zet (just to tell you once again) could be
> only ten or hundred in satem IE. It cannot be twenty even in the most
> fantastic dream!
WHY?
>>>> - You then complain that not only albanians had to borrow their 'ten'
>>>> from someone else - never mind that albanian does have a native 10... -,
>>>> they formed their 'twenty' from '1 times borrowed-ten'.
>>> I am not complaining because I know what I am talking about.
>> You've certainly been shown not to (cf. the only point above you didn't
>> reply to).
>
> You mean Albanian number ten 'dhjetë'?
No, I mean "You fail to realise that if '1-something' = 20,
'2-something' = 40 and '3-something'=60, then obviously* '-something'=20".
> It is not native, it is also
> borrowed. Albanian native words are non-IE words.
To what group does albanian belong, then?
> I have nothing to
> add, because I already told in my first message that dhjetë "is OK".
> The problem is growing with the number njëzet (after nëntëmbëdhjetë).
Do you realise that no one else but you sees a problem with it?
>>>> - The good question is why anyone still spends time arguing with you.
>>> Have I asked you to "argue" with me? What the forums are made for if
>>> not for arguing?
>> Arguing should be meaningful.
>
> Therefore, you have the privilege to chose with whom you are going to
> "argue"; naturally, in accordance to your personal interests.
But I'm not arguing with you. I'm just replying to your objectionable
statements. It's more of a difference of attitude than anything else,
granted, but that's what matters when determining 'why anyone still
spends time arguing with you' - my question could be reworded as 'why
anyone still thinks it's possible to try to engage in constructive
dialogue with you'.
It's not anyhting about you personally, I should add.
>>> Where do you live?
>
>> Why do you wish to know?
>
> Do you not see? I asked it metaphorically!
Whenever people reply with such answers, don't assume there is something
they don't see. More likely, they're going to the trouble of
deliberately *not* interpreting your words.
'How's one supposed to know, with you, what's metaphorical and and
what's not?'
>>>> - The next best question is why don't you move to Albania if you have
>>>> such an interest in their language.
>>> Why not!
>> You tell me! I'm not the one onsessed with albanian. If I'd spend any
>> time with it, it would be, with all due respect, to devise a better
>> orthography.
>
> I am not obsessed (you probably mistyped that word)
You're such a perspicacious person.
> with Albanian at
> all. For two hundred years linguistic science is trying to find the
> truth about development of languages; and now some people like
> Lubotsky and G. Starostin come up with the idea to promote the new
> "ancestor" of IE - in this case it is invented and non/nevre existed
> Illyrian. Of course, I cannot allow those charlatans to delude
> audience (scientific and general public) with their newest tricks and
> jokes.
One gets to wonder how did people manage to survive to the 20th century
without your guidance.
>>>>> In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
>>>>> cat or Romanian două-zeci...
>>>> But of course. And the evidence for that is?
>>> You have all IE languages at your disposal; but it seems you do not
>>> know how to use them.
>> I'm sorry, but grabbing whatever words they might have to guess at the
>> history of a related-or-unrelated word in another language is your
>> hobby, not mine.
>>
>> What's the evidence for -zet having anything to do with -zecei*? NB
>> -zecei is from -deke.
>
> The majority of today's citizens of Romania are romanized Slavs. It is
> the reason why the Romanian kept so much Slavic words; it means that
> Slavism are native words in Romanian ;-)
>
> Romanian -zeci cannot be derived from -deki because such phonetic
> changes belong to the domain of SF (două-zeci <= dva-cat; Russian dva-
> cać; Serbian dva(de)-set, dva'-set)
It's not -deki, it's deke-. -d- > -z- is a perfectly natural romance
development.
phog...@abo.fi
Has it ever occurred to you that there is only one reasonable
explanation for your astonishing capability of seeing homosexuality
just about everybody? "Co na sercu, to i na jezyku", as Poles say.
phog...@abo.fi
> On Aug 6, 5:57 pm, Abdullah Konushevci <akonushe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 6, 2:26 pm, Dušan Vukoti <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 6, 1:45 pm, Abdullah Konushevci <akonushe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 512; Camarda I 170; Meyer Wb 483). Xylander 306; Meyer Alb. St. II 24,
> > III 17,23; Pedersen KZ XXXVI 338, Kelt. Gr. I 186; Jokl IF XXXVI 101,
> > LKUBA 103, Reallex. Vorgesch. I 91; Bariç Hymje 35, n. 2; La Piana
> > Studi I 22,40; Pisani Saggi 133; Cimochowski LP II 232; Frisk I
> > 453-454; Walde-Hofmann II 1788-789; Mayrhofer III 199-200; Pokorny I
> > 1177; Huld 133-134; Hamp KZ LXXVII 252, n.1 (z- as a reflex of
> > *wik'-), Numerals 900, 919, Festsch. Shevoroshkin 95-96; Çabej
> > ZfPhonetik IX 207 f. (from *iug-t- related to *iuogom 'yoke'), St. II
> > 318-319; Szemerényi Numerals 165; Huld 133-134; Orel FLH VIII/1-2 41
> > (on the development of *wdž- > z-), ZfBalk XXIII 144, IF XCIII 103;
> > Demiraj AE 425 (Vladimir Orel, Albanian Etymological Dictionary, pp.
> > 521).
>
> > Konushevci
>
> Once again: -zet is suffix or a "bound morpheme" as you said yourself
> in one of your previous messages (are you a liar too?) and it cannot
> be taken as a separate word like it was the case in Romanian
> twenty).
>
> This fact is indeniable: there is no Albanian word 'zet' with the
> meaning 'twenty'!
Who cares?
Dušan Vukotić
> What's the relevance of your digression to 'In albanian, one-zet = 20,
> two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60'?
> Can't you see it's an analogue of 'In english, 2-ty=20, 3-ty=30,
> 4-ty=40', from which one gets that english -ty is 10, JUST LIKE one gets
> that albanian -zet is 20?
> It's first grade math, you know.
The most close word to Albanian njëzet (twenty) is Welsh ugain
(twenty); Welsh also used vigesimal system (deugain is forty /two
twenty/). Probably you would say that deugain is a counterpart to
Albanian dyzet (forty), and I must admit it sounds similar, at least
at first sight.
Nevertheless, we are going to see that Welsh ugain originated from
Latin viginti (twenty). Latin viginti is the same as Dutch twintig or
English twenty or Russian dvádtsat’ with the initial dental being lost
(cf. double, Latin duplo and prefix bi- /blix doubled thread; blix
from dublix/duplex/). It means that twenty is composed from two+gant/
sant in all IE languages. Greek eikosi (twenty) also comes from the
same basis (d/va-kant, Latin viginti); i.e. from d/ewi-kosi.
Albanian: dhjetë
Basque: hamar
Breton: dek
Catalan: deu
Cornish: dek
Corsican: deci
Croatian: deset
Czech: deset
Danish: ti
Dutch: tien
French: dix
Frisian: tsien
German: zehn
Greek: δέκα (déka)
Gujarati: દશ (daśa)
Hindi: दस (das)
Hungarian: tíz
Icelandic: tíu
Irish: deich
Italian: dieci
Komi: дас (das)
Kurdish: deh
Latin: decem, X
Latvian: desmit
Norwegian: ti
Novial: dek
Occitan: dètz
Old English: tīen, tēn
Persian: دَه (dæh)
Polish: dziesięć
Portuguese: dez
Punjabi: ਦਸ (das)
Romanian: zece
Romany: desh
Russian: десять (désjat’)
Sanskrit: (dashan), दश (daśa)
Scots Gaelic: deich
Serbian deset
Sindhi: ڏَهَه (daha)
Slovak: desať
Slovene: deset
Spanish: diez
Swedish: tio (^)
Welsh: deg
Albanian njëzet
Breton: ugent
Bulgarian: двадесет (dvadeset)
Croatian: dvadeset
Czech: dvacet
Danish: tyve
Dutch: twintig f.
Frisian: tweintich
German: zwanzig f.
Greek: είκοσι (eíkosi)
Indonesian: dua puluh
Irish: fiche, g.s. fichead
Italian: venti m.
Latin: viginti
Latvian: divdesmit
Manx: feed
Norwegian: tjue
Novial: duanti
Polish: dwadzieścia
Portuguese: vinte
Romanian: douăzeci
Russian: двадцать (dvádtsat’)
Sanskrit: vimshatí
Scottish Gaelic: fichead
Serbian: dvadeset
Slovak: dvajset
Slovene: dvajset
Spanish: veinte
Swedish: tjugo
Ukrainian: двайцять (dvajtsjat’)
Welsh: ugain (vigesimal, traditional), dau ddeg m (decimal), dwy ddeg
f (decimal)
> But how do you get from albanian not being IE to its -zet having
> 'similar -teen suffixes in different satem and centum languages'?
Albanian is IE language thanks to the IE borrowing, which have
occupied more than 90% of they modern vocabulary. I never claimed that
Albanian is not IE but I told that Albanian was not IE language by its
origin.
> > There is no other possibility, -zet can be only
> > 'ten' or 'hundred'!
>
> WHY?
Follow the endings in IE words for twenty -gent, -kosi, -set, -inty, -
ty, -zeci, -zig...
> You. Why else send one looking for words in 'the other IE languages'?
OK, cognates of the loaned -zet
> > It is a common law in all IE languages
> > except Albanian! Albanian -zet (just to tell you once again) could be
> > only ten or hundred in satem IE. It cannot be twenty even in the most
> > fantastic dream!
>
> WHY?
The same answer as to your first "why" (above)
>
> > I have nothing to
> > add, because I already told in my first message that dhjetë "is OK".
> > The problem is growing with the number njëzet (after nëntëmbëdhjetë).
>
> Do you realise that no one else but you sees a problem with it?
How do you know what other people can or cannot see?
> > Therefore, you have the privilege to chose with whom you are going to
> > "argue"; naturally, in accordance to your personal interests.
>
> But I'm not arguing with you. I'm just replying to your objectionable
> statements. It's more of a difference of attitude than anything else,
> granted, but that's what matters when determining 'why anyone still
> spends time arguing with you' - my question could be reworded as 'why
> anyone still thinks it's possible to try to engage in constructive
> dialogue with you'.
And who is deciding what is "constructive" and what is "not
constructive"? Does it mean I would be "constructive" if I accepted
your oppinion?
> One gets to wonder how did people manage to survive to the 20th century
> without your guidance.
Hardly ;-)
> >> What's the evidence for -zet having anything to do with -zecei*? NB
> >> -zecei is from -deke.
Do not be naive; what is the evidence that -gent, -kosi, -set, -inty, -
ty, -zeci, -zig... are having anything in commen?
> It's not -deki, it's deke-. -d- > -z- is a perfectly natural romance
> development.
OK you are right here: Romanian zece could be "produced" from dece-;
but it changes nothing in relation to Albanian -zet.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On 7 elo, 02:42, Du¨an Vukoti <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 6, 9:32 pm, phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are a seriously sick person, Homogland: can you not see, I was
talking about love and love's got nothing to do with your
homosexuality.
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:1186418622.6...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
There is no such number in Albanian? I.e. in today's Albanian?
You said:
"Compare Czech dva-cet; Serbian dva(de)set, Russian dva-catj"
There is no number "cet" in Czech, no number "catj" in Russian.
I guess there's no number "set" in Serbian either. Yet we know
all these have developed from the word for number ten
"deset", "desyat'" or similar.
So the fact that contemporary Albanian doesn't use a free-standing
"zet" for twenty is equally unremarkable.
>In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
>cat or Romanian două-zeci...
The Slavic "-cat" in "dvacat" is historically not an ordinary suffix.
It used to be "dva desati" (two tens). "desati" got eventually
shortend to "-cat" or similar.
pjk
>DV
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> There is no number "cet" in Czech, no number "catj" in Russian.
> I guess there's no number "set" in Serbian either. Yet we know
> all these have developed from the word for number ten
> "deset", "desyat'" or similar.
Right.
> So the fact that contemporary Albanian doesn't use a free-standing
> "zet" for twenty is equally unremarkable.
There is no number -set in Serbian, -cet in Czech, no number -catj in
Russian and there is no number -zet in Albanian; but these -set, -cat,
-kosi, -inte, - tig, -tich. -gent, -shati, -zece, -zig etc. have the
meaning 'ten' not 'twenty'. My question is: how this "ten" signifying
"suffix" appeared to mean 'twenty' only in Albanian?
Anyone has the logical answer?
> >In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
> >cat or Romanian două-zeci...
>
> The Slavic "-cat" in "dvacat" is historically not an ordinary suffix.
> It used to be "dva desati" (two tens). "desati" got eventually
> shortend to "-cat" or similar.
Certainly.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
To your great disappointment, I am perfectly healthy.
Harlan Messinger
> 1x10 = 20; 2x10 = 40
> If you think this calculation is wrong, go to Albania and you find it
> all okay!
>
> Albanian is the only language in the world were twenty is not two time
> ten but one time ten!
>
>
> Obviously, Albanians borrowed Serbian/Slavic 'deset' (ten; not Romance
> dec-, dez-, dix-) and the suffix -zet confirms it very picturesquely;
The very fact that you observed--that 1 x 10 does not equal 20--is
exactly what disproves this.
Harlan Messinger
> On Aug 6, 1:45 pm, Abdullah Konushevci <akonushe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What an explication! Why would any one say 'one twenty"?
You claim that it means "one ten", and why would anyone say "one ten"?
So your claim is *at least* as ridiculous as you think "one twenty" is.
Harlan Messinger
> On Aug 6, 6:12 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>> On Aug 6, 3:33 pm, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>>>> What an explication! Why would any one say 'one twenty"?
>>>> Duh. Why would anyone say 'a dozen'?
>>> While counting something normally, would you say 18, 19 -- "one
>>> twenty" or just 20 (twenty). I was not talking here about the use of
>>> articles in a normal conversation.
>> How do you count from 99 to 101 in english? Or from 999 to 1001?
>>
>>> Abdullah is trying to explain Albanian -zet with the help of
>>> vigesimal system, but if you want to talk about the system which is
>>> allegedly based on the number twenty, you must have that number at
>>> least for a start. Albanian is missing number 20... and have instead
>>> number "one ten" (additional ten, 1x10).
>> I suppose the fact that -zet does have the meaning 'twenty' everywhere
>> it appears, and nowhere the meaning 'ten', is nothing to you.
>
> Are you sure you know what are you trying to say? There is no number
> "zet" in Albanian,
There is no number "ty" in English, but that doesn't alter the fact that
"twenty" is "two tens", "thirty" is "three tens", etc.
> In this case -zet is suffix, the same one you can find in Slavic dva-
> cat or Romanian două-zeci...
Evidently not, precisely because of the absurdity that you yourself
opened this thread with. You have the most amazingly psychedelic way of
reaching conclusions. You find your *own* contradictions and then you
still don't see why they show that your hypothesis was wrong.
Harlan Messinger
> I am not complaining because I know what I am talking about.
Evidently not.
mb
...
> meaning 'ten' not 'twenty'. My question is: how this "ten"
signifying
> "suffix" appeared to mean 'twenty' only in Albanian?
> Anyone has the logical answer?
Yarright, the head moron asking for logic...
Dušan Vukotić
Have not heard from you for ages MB (Monkey Bullshit). Poor devil,
imprisoned in the crown of tree... What a life!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
You can be sure that my "hypothesis" is wrong only if you are able to
explain the history of Albanian -zet. Otherwise, you seem to be
willing to establish another "hypothesis without hypothesis" :-)
DV
Harlan Messinger
> On Aug 7, 8:01 pm, Harlan Messinger
>> Evidently not, precisely because of the absurdity that you yourself
>> opened this thread with. You have the most amazingly psychedelic way of
>> reaching conclusions. You find your *own* contradictions and then you
>> still don't see why they show that your hypothesis was wrong
>
> You can be sure that my "hypothesis" is wrong only if you are able to
> explain the history of Albanian -zet. Otherwise, you seem to be
> willing to establish another "hypothesis without hypothesis" :-)
That is EXTRAORDINARY! Listen everybody: if I don't personally have at
my disposal the exact history of the Albanian -zet, then Dusan's
hypothesis is right, and if I do, then it's right. Let me proclaim my
might power: MY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OR LACK THEREOF will RETROACTIVELY
CONTROL THE COURSE OF PAST EVENTS!
(Oh, and I do have a hypothesis: the one that -zet signifies "twenty".
At least, where you think your own hypothesis--that it signifies
"ten"--is laughable, I have the sense to pose a hypothesis I don't
immediately find to be absurd.
Dušan Vukotić
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > On Aug 7, 8:01 pm, Harlan Messinger
> >> Evidently not, precisely because of the absurdity that you yourself
> >> opened this thread with. You have the most amazingly psychedelic way of
> >> reaching conclusions. You find your *own* contradictions and then you
> >> still don't see why they show that your hypothesis was wrong
>
> > You can be sure that my "hypothesis" is wrong only if you are able to
> > explain the history of Albanian -zet. Otherwise, you seem to be
> > willing to establish another "hypothesis without hypothesis" :-)
>
> That is EXTRAORDINARY! Listen everybody: if I don't personally have at
> my disposal the exact history of the Albanian -zet, then Dusan's
> hypothesis is right
The basic logic says:
Hypothesis is neither right nor wrong until it is proven or disproven
by evidence.
>and if I do, then it's right. Let me proclaim my
> might power: MY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OR LACK THEREOF will RETROACTIVELY
> CONTROL THE COURSE OF PAST EVENTS!
>
> (Oh, and I do have a hypothesis: the one that -zet signifies "twenty".
> At least, where you think your own hypothesis--that it signifies
> "ten"--is laughable, I have the sense to pose a hypothesis I don't
> immediately find to be absurd.
You can laugh as much as you wish - it is healthy, but the fact is you
do not know where the Albanian -zet is coming from. Your senses could
tell you that you are Napoleon Bonaparte - but I doubt anybody would
believe you.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
Here we see again that you are a very bad man.
Dušan Vukotić
has the logical answer?
>
> > > Yarright, the head moron asking for logic...
>
> > Have not heard from you for ages MB (Monkey Bullshit). Poor devil,
> > imprisoned in the crown of tree... What a life!
>
> Here we see again that you are a very bad man.
The bad people caught you and returned you back to Rauha DPH? :-)
DV
Paul J Kriha
>On Aug 7, 5:37 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>
>> There is no number "cet" in Czech, no number "catj" in Russian.
>> I guess there's no number "set" in Serbian either. Yet we know
>> all these have developed from the word for number ten
>> "deset", "desyat'" or similar.
>
>Right.
>
>> So the fact that contemporary Albanian doesn't use a free-standing
>> "zet" for twenty is equally unremarkable.
>
>There is no number -set in Serbian, -cet in Czech, no number -catj in
>Russian and there is no number -zet in Albanian; but these -set, -cat,
>-kosi, -inte, - tig, -tich. -gent, -shati, -zece, -zig etc. have the
>meaning 'ten' not 'twenty'.
Bogu moj! That's the whole point. An old surviving numeric
system based on multiples of twenty.
The Albanian numbers are contractions of something like
10 - (one)ten
20 - (one)twenty
30 - threetens
40 - twotwenties
50 - fivetens
60 - threetwenties
etc
The French do a similar thing, they say four-twenties instead
of eight-tens.
>My question is: how this "ten" signifying
>"suffix" appeared to mean 'twenty' only in Albanian?
It doesn't mean that. That's all.
pjk
phog...@abo.fi
"Rauha" is the Finnish word for "peace", but what is "Rauha DPH"?
Harlan Messinger
> Bogu moj! That's the whole point. An old surviving numeric
> system based on multiples of twenty.
>
> The Albanian numbers are contractions of something like
> 10 - (one)ten
> 20 - (one)twenty
> 30 - threetens
> 40 - twotwenties
> 50 - fivetens
> 60 - threetwenties
> etc
>
> The French do a similar thing, they say four-twenties instead
> of eight-tens.
So does Danish, with the remnants of "three twenties" for 60 and "four
twenties" for 80.
Dušan Vukotić
Rauha District Psychiatric Hospital. Are you unable to recognize your
own "Home of Peace"?
DV
DV
Harlan Messinger
> The basic logic says:
> Hypothesis is neither right nor wrong until it is proven or disproven
> by evidence.
No, basic logic does not say that. The facts, strange as this might seem
to you, are what they are without regard to what hypotheses anyone has
about them, whether anyone has any hypotheses about them at all, or even
whether any creatures capable of having hypotheses exist.
> You can laugh as much as you wish - it is healthy, but the fact is you
> do not know where the Albanian -zet is coming from. Your senses could
> tell you that you are Napoleon Bonaparte - but I doubt anybody would
> believe you.
Considering how much more you value what YOUR senses tell you than known
facts that other people give you, you are in no position to say
something like this.
António Marques
>>> Here we see again that you are a very bad man.
>> The bad people caught you and returned you back to Rauha DPH? :-)
>
> "Rauha" is the Finnish word for "peace",
Obviously derived from german 'rauch', as in 'peace pipe',
> but what is "Rauha DPH"?
...obviously diphenylpicrylhydrazyl, found in whatever those people smoke.
It's all connected, you see.
Dušan Vukotić
> phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
> >>> Here we see again that you are a very bad man.
> >> The bad people caught you and returned you back to Rauha DPH? :-)
>
> > "Rauha" is the Finnish word for "peace",
>
> Obviously derived from german 'rauch', as in 'peace pipe',
Especially when du rauchst in der Ruhe ;-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net>
> > The basic logic says:
> > Hypothesis is neither right nor wrong until it is proven or disproven
> > by evidence.
>
> No, basic logic does not say that. The facts, strange as this might seem
> to you, are what they are without regard to what hypotheses anyone has
> about them, whether anyone has any hypotheses about them at all, or even
> whether any creatures capable of having hypotheses exist.
You are an extremely deep thinker: would the world exist if there were
no intelligent being to "verify" its existence? The answer is soaring
somewhere between vague YES and undefined NO and it was so since the
first human put his finger on the forehead.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
> On Aug 8, 3:22 pm, Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net>
>
> > > The basic logic says:
> > > Hypothesis is neither right nor wrong until it is proven or disproven
> > > by evidence.
>
> > No, basic logic does not say that. The facts, strange as this might seem
> > to you, are what they are without regard to what hypotheses anyone has
> > about them, whether anyone has any hypotheses about them at all, or even
> > whether any creatures capable of having hypotheses exist.
>
> You are an extremely deep thinker:
You are an extremely bad man.
Alalupo
Why so much discussion? After all it's all about hatred.
Hatred that invents theories.
Richard Wordingham
> ... I will cite and others will probably read
it: zet num. 'twenty'. From PAlb *w(i)džati etymologically identical
with IE *wik'mti 'id.': Skt vimśati-, Gk eikosi, Lat viginti (Bopp
512; Camarda I 170; Meyer Wb 483).
Isn't there supposed to be *h3 in there, causing the voicing in Latin and
Albanian? It's possibly *dwidk'mti > *dwih3k'mti > *wih3k'mti, but of
course '-ty' words offer plenty of scope for analogical reformation.
> ... (on the development of *wdž- > z-) ...
Thanks. I was puzzling over that step in the development.
Richard.
Abdullah Konushevci
As you know, it was hard for me to accept evolution proposed by Hamp
and backed up by Huld and Gasiorowski of a sequence *wik'- > z-,
probably as Huld proposed through *wIts- > *wdz- > *dzW- > z-, based
only on Alb zet 'twenty' and zot 'god', much older form zo (t). If
anyone accept my proposal that cluster *tw- was assibilated in Greek /
s/ and in Albanian /z/, I think that your proposal *dwih3k'm.ti is
much plausible than other proposals. But, I think that we owe an
explanation that *wi:k'm.ti- 'twenty' is a compound of *wi- 'in half'
and *(d)k'm.t-i, nominative dual.
Konushevci
Konushevci
mb
Try to be serious. A complete drooling retard with congenital
anencephalia cannot be *bad* the way you mean it. To be evil, one
needs a minimum of thinking behind one's acts.
I mean, would you ever imagine calling a cow "bad" or "good"?
phog...@abo.fi
Well, actually I adhere to the Boethian view of good and evil: evil is
simply the absence of good. It takes a special moral and intellectual
effort to be good. To be evil, you just let go. This is why Dushan is
bad and evil precisely because he is rolling on on autopilot.
phog...@abo.fi
Well, a Google search told me that there was indeed a psychiatric
hospital called Rauha, in Joutseno. It was closed down in 2000.
Joutseno is almost on the Russian border; I have never visited the
place. The less I see of Eastern Finland, the home of depression and
alcoholism, the better.
mb
> mb wrote:
...
> > > You are an extremely bad man.
>
> > Try to be serious. A complete drooling retard with congenital
> > anencephalia cannot be *bad* the way you mean it. To be evil, one
> > needs a minimum of thinking behind one's acts.
>
> > I mean, would you ever imagine calling a cow "bad" or "good"?
>
> Well, actually I adhere to the Boethian view of good and evil: evil is
> simply the absence of good. It takes a special moral and intellectual
> effort to be good. To be evil, you just let go. This is why Dushan is
> bad and evil precisely because he is rolling on on autopilot.
Even with that tortured philosophy, you still have to make an
exception for the rare totally non-sentient being like Dushka.
phog...@abo.fi
Well...let's just say I'll consider it a possibility.
Dušan Vukoti
> On Aug 9, 1:06 am, "Richard Wordingham" <jrw0...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abdullah Konushevci" <akonushe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ... I will cite and others will probably read
>
> > it: zet num. 'twenty'. From PAlb *w(i)džati etymologically identical
> > 512; Camarda I 170; Meyer Wb 483).
>
> > Isn't there supposed to be *h3 in there, causing the voicing in Latin and
> > Albanian? It's possibly *dwidk'mti > *dwih3k'mti > *wih3k'mti, but of
> > course '-ty' words offer plenty of scope for analogical reformation.
>
> > > ... (on the development of *wdž- > z-) ...
>
> > Thanks. I was puzzling over that step in the development.
>
> > Richard.
>
> As you know, it was hard for me to accept evolution proposed by Hamp
> and backed up by Huld and Gasiorowski of a sequence *wik'- > z-,
> probably as Huld proposed through *wIts- > *wdz- > *dzW- > z-, based
> only on Alb zet 'twenty' and zot 'god', much older form zo (t). If
> anyone accept my proposal that cluster *tw- was assibilated in Greek /
> s/ and in Albanian /z/, I think that your proposal *dwih3k'm.ti is
> much plausible than other proposals. But, I think that we owe an
> explanation that *wi:k'm.ti- 'twenty' is a compound of *wi- 'in half'
> and *(d)k'm.t-i, nominative dual.
>
> Konushevci
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your alleged PAlb *w(i)džati (which is etymologically identical
with IE *wik'mti 'id.': Skt vim ati) is nothing else but Slavic d/va-
(de)set, Romanian dou -zeci or Latin d/vi-ginti and Albanian -zet
could represent only number ten. Albanian 'zot' means god or host/ess
(that word was derived from the same Gon basis as Germanic got or
Serbian gazda /master/; Albanian zotëri gentleman; cf. Greek
godlike; Christ; Latin Saturnus) and the fact is that it
sprang from the same ur-basis as -zet. Nevertheless, it does not mean
that -zet and zot have anything in common semantically.
For instance, the Serbian word 'zet' (son in law) is also Gon
"product"; i.e. it is a shortened form of the word doma- in or doma-
zet (Greek gain the mastery over, owerpower). Abdullah's
proposed tw- assibilation is a nice try but it cannot be applied in
this specific case in the way he'd like it to be. Of course, something
similar is possible, like in Romanian dece => zece transformation, but
thus we are going back to the number TEN again - not twenty.
This Albanian -zet reminds me to another Albanian word - 'motër' -
which means "sister" instead of mother! Other IE languages are
associating word 'mater' (mother) with 'maturity' (Serbian mater
mother, mator old, mudar sagacious, matori father) and it clearly
shows that something unusual is going on when Albanian language is in
question.
DV
Dušan Vukoti
Hey Monkey Bananas, why don't you climb back up your monkey_tree_home
and finish bananas?
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Romanian două-zeci or Latin d/vi-ginti and Albanian -zet could
represent only number ten. Albanian 'zot' means god or host/ess (that
word was derived from the same Gon basis as Germanic got or Serbian
gazda /master/; Albanian zotëri gentleman; cf. Greek ισοθεος/isotheos
godlike; Σωτήρος/Soteros Christ; Latin Saturnus) and the fact is that
it sprang from the same ur-basis as -zet. Nevertheless, it does not
mean that -zet and zot have anything in common semantically.
For instance, the Serbian word 'zet' (son in law) is also Gon
"product"; i.e. it is a shortened form of the word doma-ćin or doma-
zet (Greek δαμαζω/domazo gain the mastery over, owerpower). Abdullah's
proposed tw- assibilation is a nice try but it cannot be applied in
this specific case in the way he'd like it to be. Of course, something
similar is possible, like in Romanian dece => zece transformation, but
thus we are going back to the number TEN again - not twenty.
This Albanian -zet reminds me to the Albanian word 'motër' which means
"sister" instead of mother. Other IE languages are associating word
phog...@abo.fi
That was lame, Douchie...very lame.
mb
> > > Even with that tortured philosophy, you still have to make an
> > > exception for the rare totally non-sentient being like Dushka.
>
> > Hey Monkey Bananas, why don't you climb back up your monkey_tree_home
> > and finish bananas?
>
> That was lame, Douchie...very lame.
In fact, it is one more example of a totally predictable brainstem
reflex, this being the highest available nervous activity in this
subject.
Dušan Vukoti
A psychobabble Monkey!
The world is full of surprises! :-I
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:46b9c964$0$12513$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> phog...@abo.fi wrote:
>
> >>> Here we see again that you are a very bad man.
> >> The bad people caught you and returned you back to Rauha DPH? :-)
> >
> > "Rauha" is the Finnish word for "peace",
>
> Obviously derived from german 'rauch', as in 'peace pipe',
>
> > but what is "Rauha DPH"?
>
> ...obviously diphenylpicrylhydrazyl, found in whatever those people smoke.
>
> It's all connected, you see.
I agree, it is all connected and in more than one dimension.
Te Rauha is a Mãori word and DPH stands for Department
of Public Health down'ere.
pjk
António Marques
>> What's the relevance of your digression to 'In albanian, one-zet = 20,
>> two-zet = 40, three-zet = 60'?
>> Can't you see it's an analogue of 'In english, 2-ty=20, 3-ty=30,
>> 4-ty=40', from which one gets that english -ty is 10, JUST LIKE one gets
>> that albanian -zet is 20?
>> It's first grade math, you know.
>
> The most close word to Albanian njëzet (twenty) is Welsh ugain
> (twenty); Welsh also used vigesimal system (deugain is forty /two
> twenty/) (...)
In fact, (u)gain does behave more or less like -zet:
http://home.unilang.org/wiki3/index.php/Translations:_Numbers_-_Welsh
> (...) Nevertheless, we are going to see that Welsh ugain originated from
> Latin viginti (twenty).
No. What now, are the celtic languages also a mishmash of their neighbours?
An etymological lexicon of Proto-Celtic (in progress) [Matasovic] :
http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\celtic&first=1&sort=celtic&text_bret=ugent&method_bret=substring
Proto-Celtic: *wikanti: 'twenty' [Numeral]
Old Irish: fiche, fichit [Dat./Acc.]
Middle Welsh: uceint (OW), MW figgit
Middle Breton: ucent (OBret.), MBret. 0000">ugent
Cornish: ugans
Dušan Vukotić
> > The most close word to Albanian njëzet (twenty) is Welsh ugain
> > (twenty); Welsh also used vigesimal system (deugain is forty /two
> > twenty/) (...)
>
> In fact, (u)gain does behave more or less like -zet:http://home.unilang.org/wiki3/index.php/Translations:_Numbers_-_Welsh
>
> > (...) Nevertheless, we are going to see that Welsh ugain originated from
> > Latin viginti (twenty).
>
> No. What now, are the celtic languages also a mishmash of their neighbours?
>
> An etymological lexicon of Proto-Celtic (in progress) [Matasovic] :http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\celtic&first=1&sort=celtic&text_bret=ugent&method_bret=substring
>
> Proto-Celtic: *wikanti: 'twenty' [Numeral]
>
> Old Irish: fiche, fichit [Dat./Acc.]
>
> Middle Welsh: uceint (OW), MW figgit
>
> Middle Breton: ucent (OBret.), MBret. 0000">ugent
>
> Cornish: ugans
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
Do you not see that Matasovic's Proto-Celtic *wikanti is the same as
Latin 'viginti' (in both cases the initial dental is omitted; dvi-
ganti => vi-ganti => du-ganti => d/u-gain). It means that -ganti or -
ginti means TEN (vi-ganti is two-ganti or two-ginti). Albanian -zet is
equal to Celtic or latin -ganti (-ginti or Welsh -gain) and it cannot
have the meaning twenty but only TEN.
DV