Magdalenian experiment (continuation)
Franz Gnaedinger
are cut off, perhaps because I started my thread
a long time ago, in the spring of 2006. So I open
a new publishing thread, wherein I go on with
my experiment. The former threads are:
Lascaux, a lunisolar calendar
(early 2005 - early 2006)
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux.htm
what is etymology? (linguistics and biology)
(January 23, 2006, till October 3, 2008)
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux2.htm
(to be updated in a couple of weeks)
recent subtitle:
Magdalenian words and compounds 2006/7
New thread:
Magdalenian experiment (continuation)
(start: October 7, 2008)
Below the four last messages of the previous thread
as quotes:
> Magdalenian words and compounds 2006-8,
> Part 109
>
> DOK (example of a shifting word)
>
> A passage from Mallory and Adams 2006
> (in a simplified notation by me): *h2/3éih1os
> and similar forms mean 'pole' and 'shaft' in
> Slavic (e.g. Russian voje), Anatolian (Hittite
> hissa- 'pole, shaft, till for harnessing a draft
> animal to a cart'), and Indo-Iranian (Avestan
> aesa- 'pole-plough, pair of shafts', Sanskrit
> isa 'pole, shaft') but has shifted to nautical
> terminology in Germanic, e.g. New English
> 'oar', and Greek oieion 'tiller, helm, rudderpost'.
>
> Magdalenian offers DOK --- poles used for
> building tents and huts; ancient Greek dokos
> for rafter. DOK and *h2/3éih1os may be
> compatible, the more so as German Deichsel
> 'pole, shaft' fits in between. The direct shifts
> from DOK to the above words would have
> followed about these outlinings:
>
> dok vok voje
>
> dok dos hos hissa / aesa / isa
>
> dok ok oar / oiheion oieion
>
> English pole comes from POL DOK meaning
> a fortified settlement (pol, Greek polis) made of
> poles (dok), hypothetical name of a woodhenge,
> then used for the people gathering there, whence
> English folk German Volk. POL PLO means a
> fortified settlement (pol) made in the wattle-and-
> daub technique (plo, Greek plokos for wickerwork,
> texture), and was then used for the people living
> there, Old Latin poplo Latin populus Italian popolo
> French peuple English people, while Spanish
> pueblo still names a village built in this technique
> (Pueblo Indians). Also walls made in the wattle-
> and-daub technique require poles, probably made
> of vertical branches of the poplar tree, Latin
> populus (with a long o).
>
> Sitting at the dock of the bay ... (Otis Reding) ...
> a dock was originally made of poles (dok) driven
> into the (sea)ground. What about Latin docere
> English teach? We may assume that an early
> teacher spoke on a lectern or a pulpit or another
> evelated place made of poles. English lectern
> contains )OG or LOG for the one who has the
> say. English say German sagen comes from SIG
> that is also present in English sign. SIG is the
> comparative form of DIG for finger, Latin digitus,
> also present in German zeigen for to point out
> with the finger (Zeigefinger in-dex in-dic-are),
> to show ...
>
> Light is both particle and wave. PIE, as it were,
> understands words as phonetic 'particles',
> whereas Magdalenian looks out for semantic
> 'waves' and their patterns left in the verbal
> morphospace that keeps more information
> on the past than previously held possible.
>
> -
>
> > Magdalenian words and compounds 2006-8
> > Part 108
>
> > BIR (again) / Krishna
>
> > Italian per French pour German für English for
> > may testify to fur as trading good.
>
> > Krisnha, an avataar of Vishnu, created the
> > cow herd girls. In this aspect he comes from
> > the divine hind CER -: I -: who licked moon
> > bulls into life. Krishna means black one, consider
> > PIE *ker 'burn', flames leaving black ashes. In
> > this aspect he is a descendant of the divine stag
> > CER KOS who guarded the fiery entrance to
> > and exit from the Underworld, passed by the
> > sun horse in the evening and morning respectively.
> > A mythical shaman CER may have played a similar
> > role in the Stone Age as Prometheus in the metal
> > age: bringer of fire. The divine hind survived in Hera,
> > the divine stag in Hermes but also in Herakles who
> > captured the hellhound Kerberos, guardian of the
> > Underworld. Herakles died on a pyre and was taken
> > to heavens. From this we may perhaps infer that
> > the body of a dead shaman as personification of
> > the divine stag CER KOS was cremated on a pyre
> > made of oak wood, Latin for oak being quercus,
> > whereupon his soul ascended to Procyon in the
> > winter triangle (as explained in my Vision of the
> > Paleolithic Sky).
>
> > -
>
> > > Magdalenian words and compounds 2006-8
> > > Part 107
>
> > > Magdalenian BIR (another short postscript)
>
> > > BIR belongs to the permutation group of BRI
> > > meaning fertility. BRI survives in the name of
> > > the fertility giver BRI GID, a triple goddess
> > > whose other emanations are the fur giver
> > > BIR GID and the fire giver PIR GID. BRI is
> > > also present in Sanskrit priya- Norse Fru
> > > German Frau, while English woman Old
> > > English wifman could have meant: weaving
> > > hand, perhaps covering a still older BIR MAN
> > > meaning something like: she handling fur.
>
> > >-
>
> > > > Magdalenian words and compounds 2006-8
>
> > > > Part 106, Numbers
>
> > > > EIS --- reality behind all appearances, ideas
> > > > and notions, idea of all ideas // ultimate reality
> > > > behind all apparent realities, possible origin
> > > > of words meaning one, Swiss Eis, ancient
> > > > Greek heis, German Eins ein eine eines
>
> > > > BIR --- fur, especially the fur on which a newborn
> > > > was laid // being laid on the fur would have been
> > > > the first event in life, origin of English first (while
> > > > Turkish bir means one)
>
> > > > DPA --- floor, ground // world in which we live,
> > > > realm of many beings and phenomena (as
> > > > opposed to eis above), possible origin of
> > > > English two and twice, close derivative Sanskrit
> > > > dva for the female form of two
>
> > > > SEC --- safety provided by a camp // a newborn
> > > > needs a warm fur, a child needs a safe camp,
> > > > possible origin of English second
>
> > > > AD DA --- toward (ad) away from (da), to you
> > > > from me, involving me and another person,
> > > > possible origin of English other German -ander,
> > > > also of Italian andare 'go', going toward a place
> > > > coming from another place (while the first form
> > > > vado 'I go' is a derivative of pad for the activity
> > > > of feet), also of Celtic ada 'water', a river flowing
> > > > to the sea, coming from a spring or well
>
> > > > TYR --- overcome (in the double sense of rule
> > > > and give), TRY --- triumph // a newborn needs
> > > > a warm fur, a child needs a safe camp, boys
> > > > and girls growing up must learn to survive and
> > > > cope with all sorts of challenges, possible
> > > > origin of English three and third (referring to
> > > > the age of children, first age a newborn laid
> > > > on the fur called bir, second age a child living
> > > > in the safety provided by a camp, third age
> > > > boys and girls learning to survive and cope)
>
> > > > KOD PIR --- hut (kod) fire (pir) // fires burning
> > > > around a camp, providing glowing coals for
> > > > cooking and other purposes, allowing orientation
> > > > by night, we may assume four fires indicating
> > > > the cardinal directions, possible origin of English
> > > > four and fourth, close derivatives Sanskrit catvaras
> > > > 'four' and Lithuanian ketvirtas 'fourth'
>
> > > > Five and fifth, six (Italian sei) and sixth, seven and
> > > > seventh, eight and eighth, nine (Latin novem) and
> > > > nineth, ten (Latin decem) and tenth would come
> > > > from the names of the months number 5 6 7 8 9
> > > > and 10 of the LateMagdaleniancalendar: PAS
> > > > SAI SAP OKD NOPh and DEC
>
> > > > -
Ruud Harmsen
<fr...@bluemail.ch>: in sci.lang:
>My thread came to and end, the new messages
>are cut off, perhaps because I started my thread
>a long time ago, in the spring of 2006.
Yes, Google groups (assuming that's what you are using) doesn't allow
new postings in very old threads. Real Usenet software does.
>So I open
>a new publishing thread, wherein I go on with
>my experiment. The former threads are:
>
> Lascaux, a lunisolar calendar
> (early 2005 - early 2006)
> www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux.htm
>
> what is etymology? (linguistics and biology)
> (January 23, 2006, till October 3, 2008)
> www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux2.htm
> (to be updated in a couple of weeks)
If you publish this material on your website (which I think is a good
idea), why do ALSO post it to sci.lang? Just posting a URL to the
website would already make it possible for everybody who is
interested, to read it whenever they want.
>recent subtitle:
>
> Magdalenian words and compounds 2006/7
>
>New thread:
>
> Magdalenian experiment (continuation)
> (start: October 7, 2008)
>
>Below the four last messages of the previous thread
>as quotes:
WHY?
What is the purpose of all this multiple posting? I really don't
understand why you do this. It is quite annoying, really. If these
messages have been posted already (in addition to being available on
your website), posting them again is quite overdone.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Craoi...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
>
> If you publish this material on your website (which I think is a good
> idea), why do ALSO post it to sci.lang?
It is part of a widespread malpractice called spamming, which is
usually frowned upon and might even be illegal.
Franz Gnaedinger
cut off from my previous thread and is now floating
in the vast space of the archive. Innovation is also
an issue for other countries than Switzerland,
the only means of coping with the present financial
crisis)
Antonio Marques asked me to write something
in German. Well, I am Swiss, born in Zurich,
and my mother language is Swiss, a language
that has a grammar of its own and a vocabulary
that reaches down to the Magdalenian level -
if I weren't Swiss I could hardly have gone for
my Magdalenian experiment. English is closer
to may way of internal reasoning than German,
but I may write a passage on Switzerland in
this language, a foreign language for me,
as I said.
Sigmund Widmer, vormaliger Stadtpräsident
von Zürich, Anfang der 1980er Jahre Nationalrat,
schrieb in seiner Kolumne im damaligen 'Züri-Leu'
zum Beginn eines Jahres (wenn ich mich recht
erinnere des Jahres 1984): "Die Schweiz kann
nur überleben, wenn aus dem Werkplatz Schweiz
ein Denkplatz wird". Leider hat man seinen Rat
nicht ernst genommen. Die FDP verwandelte
Zürich in eine Bank, die SP verwandelt Zürich in
einen Rummelplatz. Der Zürcher 'Tagesanzeiger'
ruft immer dringlicher nach neuen Ideen, aber
gewährt innovativen Leuten keinen Raum.
Christoph Blocher von der SVP sagte: Wir holen
die besten Fachleute in die Schweiz ... Diese
generieren Geld für uns, womit wir neue Top-
Leute ins Land holen, die noch mehr Geld
generieren, und so weiter. Das erinnert mich
an die Milchmädchenrechnung in einem SJW-
Heftchen meiner Primarschule. Das Milchmädchen
geht mit einem Korb schöner, grosser, frischer
Eier zum Markt und hängt ihren Träumen nach.
Wenn sie alle Eier verkauft, kann sie mit dem
Erlös ein neues Huhn kaufen, mehr Hühner legen
mehr Eier, bringen noch mehr Erlös --- aber da
stolpert sie über einen Stein, der Korb fällt zu
Boden, die Eier zerbrechen, aus der Traum.
(A fable of a daydreaming milk maid has become
the business model of Switzerland, innovative
minds get no chance, our country is being sold
out and will, I fear, sooner or later become
a candiate for a takeover)
-
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Intermezzo (repeating my message,
Franz, what you are doing is called spamming. It is illegal in many
jurisdictions, and it is against netiquette in all jurisdictions.
If you do not desist, your ISP will be contacted and asked to do
something about this.
Franz Gnaedinger
(and a warning to Panu Petteri Höglund)
I will start my new Magdalenian thread, the third one,
with an improved version of my etymology of English
bear. You may remember: PIE explains bear as the
brown one, Magdalenian as the furry one, provider
of the best fur, thick, longhaired, soft and warm.
Then I will go on in my usual way, discussing in
other threads - answering questions if I can shed light
on a word from my vantage point -, and then publish
a concise version here in this thread. Which is my
publishing thread, and not a chatroom for others.
There is already more than enough chatting going on
in this forum, notabene a scientific forum. I wish to
keep my publishing thread lean, and I hope the
majority of people in here will respect my wish.
(By the end of my former Magdalenian thread, on
September 19, I had to write an open letter to the
Google company regarding Panu Petteri Höglund
alias craoibhi. He does himself harm by harassing
and stalking me. He should just keep away from me.
I know the value of my work. He can't make himself
a name by molesting me, or only a bad one. If he
can't leave me in peace and keep away from this
thread, I will have to write an addendum to my open
letter to the Google company. He once told me that
it was a bad idea to attack me and make fun of me.
Now has come the time to draw the consequences,
or to take the consequences on himself. - I had sent
a copy of my open letter to the Google conmpany
to the Google company, reporting Panu Petteri
Höglund as my online stalker. I will send them also
the addendum, if I really have to write it. In my open
letter from September 19, delivered in two parts,
I also explain my peculiar way of posting and quoting
from my own messages. My open letter can easily
be retrieved from the archive of the groups maintained
by Google.)
-
Franz Gnaedinger
a test case, part 1
In early 2005 I reconstructed an amazing
lunisolar calendar from ideograms in the
Lascaux cave, looked out for a matching
language, found none in literature, went
for one myself, relying on the approach
by Richard Fester, proceeded first in
a rather intuitive way, found my first
and second Magdalenian law in 2005
1) inverse forms have related meanings
2) permutations yield words around the
same meme
and my third and fourth one in early 2006
3) D-words have comparative forms in
S-words
4) important words can have lateral
associations
From then on I mined permutation groups
and lateral associations using my four laws,
established a Magdalenian dictionary, and
use it now to etymologize words from recent
languages, like for example English bear.
PIE gives *bher- 'brown' as origin of bear.
A bear is explained as the Brown One.
There are six homonyms *bher-, meaning
boil / brown / carry / cure / strike / weave
(Mallory and Adams 2006). Of the six
meanings, *bher- 'brown' fits best for bear.
However, I find this etymology not very
convincing, so I gave it some consideration,
looked up my Magdalenian dictionary and
found
BIR --- fur, especially the fur on which
a newborn was laid; ancient Greek byrsa
for fur
This peculiar meaning, imposed by the other
words in the permutation group of BRI for
fertility, suggests a peculiar custom, and really,
there was a custom of laying a newborn on
a fur, on a bear fur! So I propose Magdalenian
BIR as origin of bear and all the six homonyms
*bher-, and a plethora of further words. The
bear is the Furry One, provider of the best fur,
thick, longhaired, soft and warm.
(to be continued)
-
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Introduction into my new thread
> (and a warning to Panu Petteri Höglund)
Franz, it takes quite a chutzpah to be "warning" people when it is
bleedin' obvious to anybody with an IQ higher than his body
temperature that you are the one who should be warned.
This is a discussion group. That means, that people come here to
discuss things. If you want to participate, you should at the very
least show interest in other people's opinions and the things they are
discussing. Or if you are genuinely uninterested, at least have the
good manners of not intervening, instead of using the discussion as a
pretext for introducing loads of Magdalenian hypotheses.
Instead, you call other people's interests and discussions "idle
chatter" and treat them essentially as a captive audience for your
preconceived ideas. You do not tolerate any sort of criticism of them,
but see any criticism as a personal attack. Basically, you think that
everybody should embrace your "great ideas" uncritically.
Both I and other people have taken enough pains to explain to you, why
your hypothesis is not scientific. We have even tried to explain, what
kind of cultural worth it *could* have, although it has no scientific
worth. All this have been a vain, useless effort, because even the
most well-meaning and friendly attempts to put you straight have only
elicited offensive, arrogant, and impertinent reactions.
In addition, you have posted the same material dozens of times in
long, tedious messages which nobody reads anyway and which are in no
particular way related to the other discussions in this newsgroup. You
have in fact done it just "to keep my thread alive", as you say - i.e.
you answer your own messages by posting the same things all over and
over again.
This is spamming by any standard and by any definition.
In a desperate attempt to escape sanctions, you are lying about
anybody else and wrongly accusing them of the same sins. That won't
do. You have a traceable web history as a hated and disliked crank,
and your behaviour most everywhere has been entirely reprehensible,
mean, and contemptible. You have no respect whatsoever for other
people, basically they only exist for you as the captive audience for
your worthless, chaotic ideas, which you call "scientific".
In short, if I am allowed to allude to the one great patriotic novel
of my country's literature, you have put yourself beyond human
manners, and there you'll stay, as far I am concerned.
Franz Gnaedinger
part 1, my work in sci.lang
A former regular of sci.lang, Jacques Guy, pasted
a message of mine from sci.archaeology to sci.lang
without informing me. When I found out, I crossposted
the thread "Did the Trojan war really happen the way
Homer said it did?" to sci.lang. In that long thread
I interpreted symbols in Homer - in Homer as focus
of the ancient world. We can read Homer, we get all
his words, but do we really understand him? No, I say,
not until we comprehend the symbols. For example
the Trojan war was caused by beautiful Helen of the
white arms. Can anyone believe this? Hardly. But
Helen is not a woman in Homer, she is the symbol
of tin of the white ingots, and she is surrounded by
a whole family of metals. Tin was rare and precious
in the Bronze Age, it came from the Ore Mountains
in Middle Europe, and from Central Asia, and was
in either way bound to pass Troy ...
Sharing ideas is the reason and purpose of posting
to the Usenet. I do share my ideas, I got plenty
ideas, I work in the Usenet, I do not chat and fool
around, and often I publish a new idea on the same
day or on the next morning (for example the one
about Helen). For all the years I spent in Usenet
groups I have been attacked, in every which way,
and perpetually. I was offended time and again,
made fun of, insulted, confronted with every ad
hominem and plenty of lies, even stalked. I am
getting attacked all the time, perpetually, as I said.
First I reply in a scientific way, using scientific
arguments. If it doesn't help I use humor. Colin Fine,
a former member of sci.lang, complimented me
on my humor: I keep it, however hard I am being
attacked. But when the attacks go on for too long
a time, I give back. It is not healthy to swallow all
the poison people spit in my face. Now I am a true
scientist, I got ideas, ergo my words have a weight,
and when I finally, after having issued several warnings,
give back, people wonder that their behaving - they
had been so cozy in their endless attacks on me -
can have consequences, and does have consequences.
Jacques Guy, whom I mentioned above, and who had
made a lot of fun of me, protected me in a most decided
and vigorous way in a bad case of stalking by the end
of 2004 and begin of 2005. I thanked him, and I consider
him a true son of Voltaire's country (not being of my
opinion, he defended my freedom of speech). In early
2005 I reconstructed an amazing lunisolar calendar
from ideograms in the Lascaux cave, looked out for
a matching language, found none in literature, began
reconstructing one myself using the approach by Prof.
Dr. Richard Fester, working first in an intuitive way,
then discovering four laws, using them for mining groups
of Magdalenian words, as I call them, and now I use
them for etymologizing words from recent languages,
for example English bear. Proto-Indo-European PIE
explains bear as the Brown One. I explain bear as
the Furry One, provider of the best fur, thick, longhaired,
soft and warm. As nobody can disprove my etymology,
nor provide new and better evidence for the PIE etymology,
I feel free to go on with my Magdalenian experiment,
in my terms, and in my specific ways of posting (that
will be the topic of the next part of my legal statement
regarding Panu Petteri Höglund). People can always
discuss with me, but in a scientific way. I always tell
them the same: if you don't like what I say, pick out
the worst I say - the worst in your opinion - and I shall
discuss it with you, and at any length you like, this
being the proper way of discussing in a scientific forum,
and the proper way to get somewhere.
(end of part 1, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 12, 2008
-
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Legal statement regarding Panu Petteri Höglund,
> part 1, my work in sci.lang
Franz, your spam does not become any less illegal by your calling it
"legal statement". Please leave this newsgroup. My legal statement is,
that this newsgroup is meant precisely for what you call "idle
chatter", and that it is "Zweckentfremdung" to use it as a publishing
channel for your Magdalenian rantings.
You already have a web page. Why don't you set up a blog and a
discussion forum for your own acolytes there? You have no business
coming here and telling us that it is "idle chatter" to use this
newsgroup what it is used for.
Franz Gnaedinger
One way of tricking me out is to quote a line or two
of a message of mine, snip the rest, and ask me
a question -- a question that would have been
answered in the snipped lines, so that I must repeat
myself, and then again, and again, and again,
and all over again, always starting from zero, never
getting anywhere. Holding me up in my work is
the reason of this behaving. As a counter measure
I developed a new way of posting: quoting my own
messages, so I can refer to the answer already
given in the quote. I discuss in various threads,
usually replying to a question, when I have to say
something and think I can shed light on a word
or a problem from my particular vantage point.
And then, when a problem is solved, a word
explained, I publish a concise version in my
publishing thread (from now on here, in this
new publishing thread of mine). I feel entitled to
quote my messages in this well considered way,
as I _work_ in sci.lang, I don't chat, I don't spread
my name in thousands of messages void of any
scientific content. My way of posting has another
advantage in that my work gets more coherent
and is more easily followed, also printed out
(several messages in one message). Also I
secure my work from a potential random loss
of messages from the archive.
Panu Petteri Höglund menaced me with reporting
me to Google for spamming, whereupon I wrote
my Open Letter to the Google Company (re Panu
Petteri Höglund) on September 19, 2008, in three
parts, wherein I also explain my particular way of
posting. I sent my letter to Google (reporting Panu
Petteri Höglund for stalking me). My Google account
was not closed down, no Google administrator and
no web official asked me to change my posting policy.
I feel free to go on with my work and with my way of
publishing and quoting in here, and I end this part of
my legal statement with the questions posed at the
end of my open letter from September 19: What is
the sense of storing terabytes of idle chatter? Why
does Google shoot nets if not hoping for fish, or,
in this case, ideas?
(end of part 2, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 13, 2008
-
Franz Gnaedinger
When Panu Petteri Höglund came (again) on board
sci.lang, he attacked me out of the blue, apparently
hoping to climb the social ladder of this forum by
doing so. I did a brief Google query on him and
pointed out the ugly messages he posted to soc.men.
He got furious and told me in German my head may
burst the sooner the better. He attacked me ever
since, and he bragged about being my one and
only killrater - meanwhile I got some 5,000 ratings,
most of them killratings (my term for systematically
downrating a poster by giving one Google star for
poor quality). Panu Petteri Höglund has more than
one Usenet identity:
phoglund @ abo.fi 1,771 messages to sci.lang,
total number of messages - cross-postings to
other groups included - 20,949
craoibhin66 @ gmail.com from March 2008
onward, 780 messages and counting
soconn1 @ comcast.net one single message
on August 4, 2008, 8:04 pm
jhobartkyle @ gmail.com nickname johnk
As phoglund and craoibhin he chased and chases
me, as soconn1 he praised himself as his own good
friend, and as jhobartkyle 'johnk' he attacks me and
attacks me and attacks me, in the same way as
phoglund in early 2006, lately even using the same
words. Can he also killrate me four times using
his four identities?
Panu Petteri Höglund attended three universities,
but he got nothing to say that hadn't been said
before and much better in plenty of textbooks.
He is short of scientific arguments, and so he
uses every means of getting around a scientific
discussion. He is desperate for acceptance
(even secretly hoping I would admire him), but
he tries to find acceptance in a hopeless way,
and telling him is to no avail. Born in 1966 he
is now 41 or 42 years old, when a man is on
the height of his powers. And what does he do?
he hangs around in sci.lang, hounding me. What
a sad waste of time. He needs a reasonable task
in life, so that he can be proud of himself when
he once reaches my age.
(end of part 3)
Franz Gnaedinger
Magdalenian BIR means fur, especially the fur
on which a newborn was laid. This particular
meaning suggests an ancient custom, and
really, one Porphyrios described a custom
of laying a newborn on a bear fur in the third
century AD, and the same custom survived
until the twentieth century in eastern Slavic
regions, where a grandmother laid the
newborn on a bear fur. A Vinca figurine
from the early fifth millennium BC shows the
divine mother wearing a bear mask, holding
a baby wearing a small bear mask in her arms.
Another Vinca figurine from the middle of the
fifth millennium BC shows the divine mother
or nurse wearing a bear mask, on her back
a pouch for the baby ... Marija Gimbutas:
"The maternal devotion of the female bear
made such an impression upon Old European
peasants that she was adopted as symbol of
motherhood."
BIR belongs to the permutation group of BRI
meaning fertile. The word survives in the name
of the fertility giver BRI GID, a triple goddess,
whose other emanations are the fur giver
BIR GID and the fire giver PIR GID. Magdalenian
BRI also accounts for Sanskrit priya- Norse Fru
German Frau. English woman Old English wifman
might have meant: weaving hand, perhaps covering
a still older BIR MAN meaning something like:
she handling fur.
(to be continued)
-
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> One way of tricking me out is to quote a line or two
> of a message of mine, snip the rest, and ask me
> a question -
So, asking you a question is "tricking you"?
Let us presume, just for the sake of argument, that there indeed are
enthusiastic and eager young people somewhere, keen to take interest
in Franz's theories. If some such person asks Franz an innocent
question, will Franz ever be able to take it for it is, or will he
classify even that "eager young person" as a troll and an agent
provocateur?
As regards your "legal statement", Franz, it is nothing but more spam,
a fact that is bleedin' obvious to anyone, That you are actually
threatening me with "consequences" - from your position as a spammer
who is wilfully disrupting this newsgroup - might be in itself
illegal.
johnk
Sorry Franz, but I have no idea who craoibhin is. I just recently
started reading your crap and felt I had to comment. You're even a
bigger idiot than I origianally thought. Do you see these
conspiracies everywhere you look? You're obviously not a linguist of
any sort but rather a kook who has never bothered to read about the
topic you pretend to know about.
JohnK
Craoi...@gmail.com
In that case, my friend, let's get acquainted. I am Panu Höglund, a
humble Master of Arts from Finland, who majored in German Studies and
also studied Polish, Russian, and some chemistry. However, my real
passion is the Irish language, which I have taught myself by
meticulous study of Irish folklore and literature since 1991.
Craoi...@gmail.com
And the name "Craoibhín" is, of course, a tribute to An Craoibhín
Aoibhinn or "The Sweet Little Branch", real name Douglas Hyde or in
Irish Dubhghlas de hÍde, the founder of the Irish language
revitalization movement back in 1893. He was the son of a Protestant
minister from Roscommon (Ros Comáin), where a demotic dialect of Irish
was still spoken in the 19th century.
Franz Gnaedinger
English bear German Bär Dutch beer are
explained as the Brown One. Let me propose
a new etymology: the bear was the Furry One,
provider of the best fur, thick, longhaired, soft
and warm. The Ostyak in Siberia call the bear
Fur Man. In Lapp the animal is called Woolly One.
Also two German names or nicknames of the bear
concern its fur: Zottelbär 'shaggy bear', and petz
female petze, in fables Meister Petz. Grimm, in his
Wörterbuch, quotes one Hagedorn: "da sträubet
sich der petz" meaning: here the 'petz' bristles up,
stands on end. So petz can only mean pelt German
Pelz and Fell. These words may be lateral associ-
ations to PIS for water in motion. Leonardo da Vinci
observed that hair resembles flowing water.
The same observation could well have been made
by Ice Age people, while a linguistic connection to
water in motion is preserved in the verb to pelt
used for heavy raining.
BIR would have many derivatives, also of the
second and tertiary order. One can bear a baby
in a pouch made of fur (consider also the bearing-
cloth mentioned by Shakespeare in The Winter's
Tale, Act 3 Scene 3, a rich cloth in which a child
was carried to be christened). By analogy one
has a word for a pregnant woman: she bears
a child. Between the two ways of bearing a child
(inside and outside the womb) happens the event
called birth, a child is born, a newborn, a bairn -
the latter word appears in many variants including
a Scottish bir meaning son. Parents are the happy
people who can lay a newborn on fur. Being laid
on a bear fur was the first event in life (and being
carried in a bearing-cloth to be christened the
first event in religious life), wherefrom Albanian
pare Sanskrit purva Tocharian B parwe English
first, while Turkish bir means one. Female bears
are devoted mothers, patiently licking and fiercly
defending their cubs, and so the choice of bear
fur could also have served a psychological
reason: may a human mother care as devotedly
for her children as a bear mother for her cubs ...
Bears are sleeping through winter, they disappear
in fall and reappear in spring. Neanderthals
apparently buried some of their dead wrapped
in bear fur, a custom seen as evidence for a belief
in regeneration, and this custom, adopted by
Homo sapiens sapiens in Eurasia, would have
given raise to English bier German Bahre,
English bury and burial, perhaps also barrows
(in southern England).
Peter T. Daniels
> Magdalenian BIR and English bear,
> a test case, part 3
you mean part 673
> English bear German Bär Dutch beer are
> explained as the Brown One. Let me propose
> a new etymology:
No, this is the same "etymology" you proposed months ago.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Oct 14, 2:12 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > Magdalenian BIR and English bear,
> > a test case, part 3
>
> you mean part 673
Part 4,975,324 would sound more plausible.
Franz Gnaedinger
Having good fur was important for Ice Age
people, and the best fur was provided by the
bear. Judging by its name also the boar Latin
aper German Eber provided a good fur, while
the squirrel *werwer and the beaver German
Biber may come from the doubling BIR BIR.
Latin varius originally meant: of many colors,
a fur of more than one color, wherefrom
German Farbe. Also form may be a derivative
of BIR, so we have German "Form und Farbe"
as a double derivative of BIR.
Bears had to die so that humans could live.
A painting in the cave Les Trois-Frères shows
a bear covered in dots, blood spurting out of
snout and body. The dots represent wounds,
but as phonetic ideograms also SAI for life,
existence - life for the Ice Age people who
utterly depended on fur. In autumn, a bear
eats up to 150,000 berries German Beeren.
Dutch brombeer 'growling beer' is practically
the same as German Brombeere 'brambler,
black berry'. So we may assume that a) bears
like berries, and berries were named for the
bear, or b) settlements were protected with
quickly growing bramblers against wild animals,
or c) bramble alleys were used as bear traps.
Pear Latin pire may refer to the shape of a
bear's head, round with a long snout. Hair on
the chin is called beard German Bart. Bare
could once have meant a skinned animal,
deprived of its fur (as Greek nakae 'goat skin'
became English naked). The Norse berserks
were clad in bear skins impregnated with oil
and herbs that made them go wild. English
beorn means warrior. Also war (stifle) could
come from hunting bears, idem fear, fury,
furious, ferocious, fierce, wary, ward. Peaceful
derivatives may be fair in the sense of blond,
warm, also ware and purchase, remembering
fur as a precious trading good. The same may
account for Italian per French pour German für
English for. We say brrr when it is very cold and
we need a warm coat that would have been
a fur coat in the Ice Age. A feline purrs. A bear
ending quasi hibernation lets go a tremendous
fart German Furz. A bear going to quasi hi-ber-
nation digs a hollow, which may have given
raise to the words fork (originally the bear claw?)
furrow farm farming farmer, Swiss Puur German
Bauer (while English dig comes from DIG
meaning finger, a digging stick prolonging
and enforcing a poking finger).
Franz Gnaedinger
Bear comes from PIE *bher-, which has many
meanings, but all of them can be related to fur
and especially to bear fur: *bher- 'brown' -
explained before // *bher- 'weave, twine' -
the fur of a sheep is longhaired as the one
of a bear // *bher- 'seethe, bubble; roast' -
the meat of a skinned animal // *bher- 'strike
(through), split, cut' - one has to kill the animal
to get its precious fur and its meat // *bher-
'carry' - explained above // *bher- '+- cure with
spells and/or herbs' - curing a patient using
spells and a warming bear skin impregnated
with fat and medical herbs // *bheré(o) 'bear
(a child)' - explained before //*bherg- 'growl,
bark' - sounds made by a bear // *bherg-
'high, hill' - the shape of a bear, magnified
by fear, would have been seen in a hill or
a mountain German Berg. Old Indic rksa
may combine the genuine word for bear,
namely ARC, with RAG for the line of the back,
first line drawn by a cave painter according to
Leroi-Gourhan, strongly evocative of the whole
animal; RAG is present in the name of the bear
in several Indic languages. (PIE forms after
Mallory and Adams 2006)
Franz Gnaedinger
'Berg' became the word for mountain in German.
LAD for hill and comparative LAS for mountain
pose a problem. They disappeared from the
Indo-European languages. My only evidence
for LAS is AD LAS Atlas Atlantis, hypothetical
ancient name of Eurasia, the land along the
very long mountain barrier from the Cantabrian
Mountains in northern Spain to the Himalayas
in Asia. Atlas, the Greek god who carried the
sky on his neck and shoulders, obviously
personified a high mountain. In Switzerland
we have a magnificient mountain group around
the Aletsch, a mountain and a glacier, the latter
a world heritage site under the protection of
the Unesco. Geographical names in the region
may be derivatives of LAD and LAS: Lonza
Lötsch- Lütsch- -letsch-, AD LAS Aletsch ...
The name of the Valais south of the glacier
means valley or dale, from DAL, inverse of LAD.
In the Valais we have the villages of Lax and
Laden. 'Las' in the Upper Valais was the word
for water flowing down a mountain slope, akin to
auslassen, let water flow out. English let German
lassen might be derivatives of LAD and LAS,
remembering the gods and goddesses who
resided on hills and mountains and granted
water, letting it flow down the slopes. 'Glacier'
might go back to the compound GO) LAS or
GOL LAS, meaning much as edible mountain,
made of stone that can be licked, melted and
drunk, and used for cooking. From GOL LAS
we easily get to glass, a material resembling
ice. While glaciers dominated the world of the
Ice Age hunters, shining surfaces of glass
dominate the business world in our modern
metropoles. The beautiful new opera house
in Helsinki, built of concrete and glass, looks
like an artificial iceberg ...
Franz Gnaedinger
English bear will now be my test case of
Magdalenian. As long as nobody can disprove
my etymology of bear as the furry one, provider
of the best fur, thick, longhaired, soft and warm,
or come up with new and better evidence for
bear as the brown one, I feel free to go on
with my Magdalenian experiment.
Magdalenian challenges PIE, but I think the
two approaches to early language are well
compatible. While PIE looks out for sound
patterns, Magdalenian ponders the verbal
morphospace for semantic patterns. I mined
words using my four laws, but now, in my
present work, etymologizing words from recent
languages, I am guided by PIE formulas. They
are a precious hint. I couldn't go on with all the
achievements of PIE scholars. Magdalenian
and PIE complete each other. This, I dare say,
is very good news.
BIR as origin of ancient Greek byrsa English
fur and English bear German Bär Dutch beer
allows a further glance into a far bygone past.
The Georgian word root for Greek is -berdz-
(dz being one single phoneme), which is close
to Greek byrsa 'skin, fur'. Old Georgian bezr-i
'fur, skin, animal hair' and brankgu-i 'bear'
may also be derivatives of BIR. Homer, in the
Odyssey, mentions the lineage Zeus Arkeisios
Laertes Odysseus Telemachos. In Arkeisios
one may recognize Magdalenian ARC for bear,
Greek arktos Latin ursus. What if Georgian
-berdz- and Greek Arkeisios are related?
More in the next series of messages called
Origin of the Greeks.
(end of part seven, end of the bear series)
Franz Gnaedinger
AAR RAA NOS --- mind (nos) of the one
composed of air (aar) and light (raa), god of
Göbekli Tepe, visible ex negativo through the
big limestone ring, actually composed of air
and light: www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG
This god became the Greek sky god Ouranos
NOS AAR RAA --- he who follows the mind
of the one composed of air and light, he who
follows the heavenly Lord, became Noah in
the Bible
ShA PAD --- ruler (sha) activity of feet (pad),
wandering ruler, Japhet in the Bible, a son of
Noah
TYR --- he who overcomes in the double sense
of rule and give, Tiras in the Bible, a son of
Japhet, settled on the southern shore of the
Aral Sea, Middle Helladic Sseyr Doric Sseus
Homeric Zeus, founder of the Homeric lineage
Zeus Arkeisios Laertes Odysseus Telemachos
ARC --- bear, ancient Greek arktos Latin ursus,
Arkeisios, led the early Greeks from the Aral Sea
along the southern shore of the Caspian Sea,
along the Caucasus mountain range, along the
northern shore of the Black Sea, to Thessaly and
finally the Peloponnese, a strong man protecting
and defending his own like a bear, he left such
an impression on the dwellers of the Caucasus
that the Georgian word root for Greek is -berdz-
(dz being one single phoneme), akin to Greek
byrsa for skin, fur, a derivative of BIR, the same
for Old Georgian bezr-i 'fur, skin, animal hair'
and brankgu-i 'bear'
Lord Laertes the gardener, Eponymous Tiryns,
representing the Argolis and the Peloponnese
in the Middle Helladic period of time, Tiryns disc,
lion-wolf-dog-bee king on gold signet ring from
Tiryns and in numerous other depictions from
the Peloponnese, whose ancient name ITA CA
means young bull (ita) sky (ca), under the sky
of the young Zeus bull, a name that survives
in the island of Ithaka
Odysseus, personification of the Peloponnese
in the time of the Trojan war, name of his wife
Penelope a pun on Peloponnese, together they
build an immovable bed around the trunk of
the olive tree that had been planted by Lord
Laertes, an immovable bed as symbol of the
eternal Greek civilization
Telemachos 'far away war', Homer's time,
fearfully reminding of former times, Messenian
wars, Gyges on the horizon, danger for the
Ionian colonies, Homer fearing for the unity
of Greece, therefore compiling ballads from
a rich bardic tradition ...
(end of part one, to be continued)
Craoi...@gmail.com
> The beautiful new opera house
> in Helsinki, built of concrete and glass, looks
> like an artificial iceberg ...
New? It is at least fifteen years old.
Franz Gnaedinger
TYR Biblical Tiras Middle Helladic Sseyr
Doric Sseus Homeric Zeus would have been
a historical personality, or a series of rulers
who founded the Greek tradition and were
by and by deified and raised into the sky
by their successors. They would have settled
on the southern shore of the Aral Sea, where
we find several variants of the name: the
northern and southern river mouthing into the
Aral Sea are called Sir-Darja and Amu-Darja,
then there are the lowlands of Turan, Turkmenia,
and the Turkestan mountains next to Tadzikistan
of the tin mines.
Magdalenian KAL means Underworld, also this
word present in geographical names of the region,
and in Hel- of Hellenes, who might then originally
have been miners. Beautiful Helen of the white
arms in Homer symbolizes tin, her white arms
tin ingots, her long glittering robes she made
herself the tin ore cassiterite, and her thread
tin wire, by then cut out of tin sheets. Her husband
xanthos Menelaos symbolizes copper, the color
xanthos covering all hues of copper ore, yellow,
brown, red. Their lovely daughter Hermione who
resembles golden Aphrodite symbolizes bronze,
of a golden shine when freshly cast. Menelaos
had a slave mistress who symbolizes tinc as
contained in the mineral andrasit, a natural
alloy of copper and tinc, by then found in the
Troas - tinc in enslaved form, as it were. Their
son, strong late come Megapenthes, symbolizes
brass, alloy of copper and tinc, harder than
bronze, arriving late in the 'family' of metals
used by humans. Beautiful Helen caused the
Trojan war: Mycenaen bronze required more tin
than modern bronze, 12 or even 15 percent,
tin was rare and precious, it came from Central
Asia and from Middle Europe, and was in either
case bound to pass Troy ...
(end of part two, to be continued)
-
Franz Gnaedinger
The Hellenes are also called Graikoi Greeks.
In Graikoi we recognize Magdalenian GRA
for a decorated cave, first a Paleolithic cave
whose walls and ceilings were covered in
paintings, then, in the times of mining, caves
and subterranean gangways 'decorated' with
veins of precious minerals and metals ...
This would again suggest that the early Greeks
were miners.
Turk and Turkman may be explained as follows:
TYR CA --- he who overcomes in the double
sense of rule and give (tyr) sky (ca), heavenly
Lord. TYR CA MAN --- he who overcomes in the
double sense of rule and give (tyr) sky (ca) right
hand (man), he or they who carry out the will of
the heavenly Lord. TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus was
the heavenly father of both Greece and Troy in
Anatolia. TYR CA MAN is of the same word
formation as AAR RAA MAN --- air (aar) light
(raa) right hand (man), he or they who carry out
the will of the one composed of air and light,
the will of the heavenly Lord of Göbekli Tepe,
wherefrom Armenia. Again the same formation
is found in ABA BRA --- father (aba) right arm
(bra), he who carries out the will of the heavenly
father, Abram, Abraham.
(end of part three, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger
Arkeisios would have led the early Greeks
from the region of the Aral Sea to Thessaly
and the Peloponnese. He may again
represent a series of rulers. They would have
moved along the southern shore of the Caspian
Sea, through the Caucasus, and then along the
northern shore of the Black Sea. They would
have left a strong impression on the people
in the Caucasus, for the Georgian word root
for Greek is -berdz- (dz being one single
phoneme) akin to Greek byrsa 'skin, fur',
while Old Georgian bezr-i means fur, skin,
animal hair, and brankgu-i means bear.
There is a place called Byrc on the border
between the Cholkis in the east and a region
called Iberia I-ber-ia in central Georgia.
ARC in Arkeisios and BIR as origin of -berdz-
would testify to the early Greeks as "bears":
fiercly protecting and defending their own.
Homer says the Greeks had once been
neighbors of Polyphem. Polyphem symbolizes
Troy, but also Anatolia in general. The Armenians
have a mythological figure by the name of Torc,
a one-eyed giant who threw boulders at pirates
and other intruders from above - much like
Polyphem, while being a positive figure.
Now Georgia (provisional home of Arkeisios)
and Armenia a r e neighbors.
(end of part four, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger
Now for Laertes in Homer's lineage Zeus
Arkeisios Laertes Odysseus Telemachus.
Let me quote my paper for a conference,
plus an addendum.
A concise interpretation of the Elaia disc
and Tiryns disc, relying on the translations
by Derk Ohlenroth, proposing a different
historical background, with many links to
illustrations on my website
Provisional English translation of the inscription
on the Elaia disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth:
Enter Elaia's grove, kindle peeled wood (stripped
from the bark), beat the earth round about the
smoke rising from the sacrificial fire, and neigh
like a pair of horses: Aio aé! come, Noble Late
'Night', always born anew by the goddess ...
The disc shows Elaia's grove in Phigalia, in the
center field a baking oven (Evans 7) symbolizing
Demeter Elaia, resembling the oven of the Bird
Goddess in the shrine of Sbatinovka in the
Southern Bug Valley, Moldavia, Early Cucuteni
www.seshat.ch/home/kirike11.GIF Next to the
oven is a wave (Evans 45) representing Poseidon
who was originally the river god. Poseidon followed
Demeter Elaia, she fled him and turned into a mare,
whereupon he turned into a stallion and raped her.
Demeter Elaia became Black Demeter Melaina
the angry one and caused a famine. She bore
a child and gave birth to a daughter by the name
of Depsoina. Her secret name was Nyx 'Night',
and she was an alter ego of Gaia. The above
formula evoked her and made her speak through
her priestesses and thus give oracles.
The author of this paper believes that the Vinca
culture of Old Europe, a term coined by Marija
Gimbutas, partly survived in Arcadia. A Vinca
spiral meant life. A rectangular spiral is found
in the center of the loaf-shaped clay plaque
from Banjica near Belgrade, Early Vinca
www.seshat.ch/home/kirike07.GIF
www.seshat.ch/home/kirike08.GIF
Round spirals appear on another loaf-shaped
clay plaque from Vrshac, Vinca culture,
c. 5 000 BC or early fifth millennium BC
www.seshat.ch/home/kirike36.GIF
A double spiral is seen on the womb of the
pregnant goddess from Medvednjak, Vinca
culture, between 5 000 and 4 500 BC
www.seshat.ch/home/kirike37.GIF
The spiral on the disc has the same meaning
of life: performing the horse ritual brings Nyx
to life ...
(end of part five, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger
Now for a fable.
The priestesses of Demeter Elaia the friendly one
and Black Demeter Melaina the angry one knew
a lot about gardening. They imported edible olives
from Crete and planted them in their grove.
Around 1 700 BC a hopeful young man was raised
in Lycaion. He worshipped the supreme god at an
altar on top of Mount Lycaion, wherefrom he had
a splendid view over the Peloponnese, and spent
considerable time in Elaia's grove learning about
agriculture. As a young man he traveled to the
Argolis, where he was considered such a prodigy
that the king of Tiryns who resided in the beautiful
Circular Building on top of the limestone hill and
had no son adopted him for his prince. The
Mycenaeans worshipped Sseyr (Middle Helladic
name of Zeus). The young man said: 'We worship
a supreme god residing on top of Mount Lycaiaon,
he resembles your Sseyr, he must be the same
god ...' It came to happen that a famine menaced
the Argolis, whereupon the young man traveled
to Elaia's grove, evoked Nyx, and got her oracle
from her priestesses. The wise women told him
to plant edible olives in the Argolis, and to be
as industrious as a bee. Well, the young man
took olive twigs and portable beehives from
Phigalia to Tiryns, and, with the help of willing
and laborious people, turned the Argolis into
a flowering garden that nourished everybody.
He declared Sseyr from Tiryns and the god
from top of Mount Lycaion to be one and the
same god. He worshipped Sseyr in a shrine
in the Circular Building, and Demeter Elaia
in a complementary shrine. He placed portable
beehives on the walls in honor of Demeter Elaia,
and kept falcons and eagles in honor of Sseyr,
even tamed some of the birds and made them
hunt for snakes. He was very inventive and
found a solution to almost every practical
problem. Thus he luckily averted the famine,
and when the old king died he was appointed
new king of Tiryns. People liked him, some
feared him, and a few said he was no genuine
Argivian, just a stranger from Lycaion. He tried
to convince the latter by caring about the safety
of Tiryns and of the Argolis in general. He
installed guards on top of the Circular Building
and along the walls of Tiryns. Moreover he
founded a union for the protection of the Argolis
www.seshat.ch/home/tirynsar.GIF The emblem
of this union was the watchful Eye of Argos,
a cirlce of dots around a central dot:
www.seshat.ch/home/tirynsa.JPG The king
presented himself as the lion-wolf-dog-bee
king - the lion being the Mycenean emblem
of power, the wolf being the Lycaion emblem
of power, the dog a useful guard, and the bee
an emblem of industry, sacred to Demeter
Elaia.
(end of part six, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger
Eponymous Tiryns also introduced an ingenious
lunisolar calendar from Asia Minor: a year has
12 months of 30 days, plus 5 and occasionally
6 days, while 63 continuous periods of 30 days
- 270 weeks of seven days - yield 1,890 days
and correspond to 64 lunations. Actually he used
a variant of this calendar: a week has nine days,
five weeks are 45 days, 8 periods of 45 days
are 360 days, add 5 and occasionally 6 days
and you get a year of 365 and sometimes 366
days. 21 continuous periods of 45 days - or 105
weeks of nine days - are 945 days and correspond
to 32 lunations. This calendar was visualized in
a simple yet appealing way: as a flower of eigth
petals, each petal representing 45 days or five
weeks, while the 5 and occasionally 6 additional
days of the solar year were represented by a
small circle in the center. The flower was at the
same time a symbol of the sun that rules the year
and makes the cereals grow and the flowers bloom.
(end of part seven, to be continued)
-
> > www.seshat.ch/home/kirike11.GIFNext to the
Franz Gnaedinger
Now the king had good friends in southern Crete,
where he liked to spend winter. Crete, in the
Middle Helladic / Middle Minoan period of time
was a laboratory of writing. So the king consulted
a good friend among the scribes, elaborating an
idea of his own, telling him he would like to convey
Ealaia's grove at Phigalia and his beloved Tiryns
on a pair of gold discs that he could wear on his
shoulders. The Tiryns disc should also tell about
his success as king. The gold discs should bear
inscriptions conveying stories in a double form,
both as texts and as pictures. How can this be
achieved? with a new script that renders single
sounds like A or E or S or L in the form of tiny
pictures that can be assembled to visual messages.
The same sound can be represented by several
different pictures, allowing for more graphic
possibilities. For example S may be given by
several signs, among them a soldier (Evans 2),
O can again be written as more than one sign,
one of them being the shield of a soldier, and this
shield may be decorated with the emblem of the
Argos Eye (Evans 12). On the linguistic level,
shield O followed by soldier S would yield the
frequent Greek ending -OS, while on the visual
level a shield and a soldier represent a guard.
Guards must be seen all over Tiryns, protecting
the polis, especially the gate, and watching over
the sea and plains (Tiryns, by then was close
to the shore). Spirals would be nice. The Tiryns
spiral should begin with Sseyr in the center ---
emphatic Ss given as the calendar flower of
eight petals (Evans 38), Ey as profile of the king,
bearing a tatoo on the cheek, a pair of tiny circles
for sky and earth (Evans 3), and R as ear of grain,
speaking for the king's concern for the Argivian
fields (Evans 10). The spiral text must unify Sseyr
with the supreme god residing on top of Mount
Lycaion, a shining god reflectd in the shining
town, while he, the king, personifying the town,
may be equated via the godlike polis with the
shining god himself. The text along the margin
should be a magic enforcement of the protection
granted by the walls around Tiryns. And here is
what the king and his friend the scribe managed
to write on the Tiryns disc. Spiral text: Sseyr is
the shining one also when Sseyr is the Lycaian
one, whose women give birth to his equal,
and if shining Tiryns resembles the shining god,
also I, personifying Tiryns, resemble the god ...
Text along the margin: Marked by the god and
lonesome evermore and without hope for salvation
and deprived of a shadow shall return who tries
to enter without permission ... The banning formula
warding off potential intruders begins again with
the emphatic Ss of Sseyr. The visual message
conveys how well Tiryns was protected, by so
many guards: www.seshat.ch/home/tirynsas.GIF
There are more visual messages, for example
two waves on the margin indicating the former
course of the river Manesse (Evans 45), the
woman with the mane and protruding face showing
Demeter Elaia as she turns into Black Demeter
Melaina (Evans 6), portable beehives on the wall
(Evans 24), a falcon catching a snake (Evans 31),
and so on.
(end of part eight, to be continued)
-
> > www.seshat.ch/home/tirynsar.GIFThe emblem
> > of this union was the watchful Eye of Argos,
> > a cirlce of dots around a central dot:
> > www.seshat.ch/home/tirynsa.JPGThe king
> > > www.seshat.ch/home/kirike11.GIFNextto the
Franz Gnaedinger
The king and later his successors wore the pair
of gold discs on their shoulders, recognizeable
as minute spirals on the gold signet ring from
Tiryns, where we see Eponymous Tiryns before
Demeter Elaia, raising a libation jug, appearing
as lion-wolf-dog-bee king, behind him three
successors, in between the kings three olive
twigs growing out of olives, practically the same
sign as Evans 13. Ears of grain are seen on
Demeter Elaia's gown, and as rain in the sky.
Behind the happy goddess hides the eagle of
Sseyr: www.seshat.ch/home/ring.gif
www.seshat.ch/home/ring2.JPG
www.seshat.ch/home/ring3.JPG
The gold discs are lost - perhaps waiting for
discovery in an as yet unexcavated part of
Tiryns? Luckily the scribe and friend of
Eponymous Tiryns made a clay copy of the pair
of gold discs and baked them together into a
single disc. The copy was kept in the palace of
Phaistos in the fertile Mesara plain in southern
central Crete, where Luigi Pernier found it in the
evening of of July 3, 1908. The scribe of the discs,
or one of his colleagues, inscribed a bronze
double axe that was placed in the cave near
Arkalochori and devoted to Lousia the angry one,
Cretan equivalent of Black Demeter Melaina.
Translation by Derk Ohlenroth: I belong to the
goddess Lousia. This short inscription shares
three signs and the so-called thorn with the signs
on the discs. Elaia in her boat with the bow in the
shape of a horse can be seen on the gold ring
from Mochlos in Crete, and the bee as her
industrious companon does not miss on this
charming work of a Cretan goldsmith:
www.seshat.ch/home/elaia.GIF
Homer, finally, paid homage to Eponymous Tiryns
in the Odyssey, where he appears as Lord Laertes
the gardener who planted the olive tree around
whose trunk Odysseus and Penelope build their
immovable bed, symbol of the ever lasting Greek
civilization.
(end of part nine, to be continued)
-
> > > www.seshat.ch/home/tirynsar.GIF The emblem
> > > of this union was the watchful Eye of Argos,
> > > a cirlce of dots around a central dot:
> > > www.seshat.ch/home/tirynsa.JPG The king
Franz Gnaedinger
regarding the Middle Minoan / Helladic calendar
In George Sfikas, Wild flowers of Crete, I found
a candidate for the calendar flower in the center
of the Tiryns disc: "Ranunculus ficaria - subsp.
ficariformis. A sturdy plant, glabrous, with wide
oval leaves, cordate at base, slightly crenate,
concentrated mainly ... (can't read my hand, FG)
down. Stems short. Flowers large, 30-50 mm,
with 8-12 petals. Sepals 3, yellowish-white.
Habitat: Damp places, arable fields and gardens
of lowland and sub-montane zones. Flowers
February - April." The picture shows two flowers
of eight petals each, in a strong sunflower-yellow
against dark emerald green leaves, the form of
the flowers being a good match to the rosette on
the disc.
A flower of 12 petals would represent the calendar
from Göbekli Tepe: a year has 12 months
of 30 days, with plus 5 and sometimes 6 additional
days, while 63 continuous periods of 30 days
(or 270 weeks of 7 days) are 1,890 days and
correspond to 64 lunations.
A flower of 12 petals would represent the calendar
variant of the Argolis: a year has 8 periods of 45
days, plus 5 and sometimes 6 additional days,
while 21 continuous periods of 45 days (or 105
weeks of 9 days) are 945 days and correspond
to 32 lunations.
The following calendar would make sense both
regarding astronomy and the climate of Crete
and the Argolis. A regular year of 365 days:
intermediary period: Mar 21 - 25
New Year Mar 21, spring equinox
first period of 45 days: Mar 26 - May 9
second period of 45 days: May 10 - Jun 23
summer solstice on Jun 21, near the end
third period of 45 days: Jun 24 - Aug 7
fourth period of 45 days: Aug 8 - Sep 21
fifth period of 45 days: Sep 22 - Nov 5
fall equniox on Sep 23, near the begin
sisxth period of 45 days: Nov 6 - Dec 20
seventh period of 45 days: Dec 21 - Feb 3
winter solstice on Dec 21, begin of period
eigth period of 45 days: Feb 4 - Mar 20
Ranunculus ficaria blooms during the last period
of the old year, during the intermediary period,
and during the first period of the new year in
the above calendar.
(end of part ten)
Franz Gnaedinger
messages that will be called
From the Ice Age to the Bible
I developed my new ideas in another thread,
starting from Mary Magdalene and from Genesis
1:1 and going backward in time. Now I reverse
the direction, starting from the Ice Age and
proceeding forward in time, which makes it all
easier to tell and follow. So much in advance:
I found the inscription )OG BIR AC CA on pillar
18, temple D, Göbekli Tepe, and have good
reasons to regard it as origin of Genesis 1:1.
This will shed new light on the Bible: it goes
back in time by 9,000 years (written around
500 BC while the first temples of Göbekli Tepe
date from 11 600 BP, and the sanctuary was
in use until 9,500 years ago, when the nineteen
or more stone pillar temples were carefully filled
up and abandoned). Göbekli Tepe is the hinge
between the Ice Age and the Bible, and will
therefore play an important role in my new
series of messages. Readers in German may
buy the pocket edition of Klaus Schmidt's fine
book on Göbekli Tepe, with an addition on
the new excavations, and quite cheap, only
25 Swiss Francs, less than 20 Euros. With
over hundred photographs of that extraordinary
archaeological site.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> My thread came to and end, the new messages
> are cut off,
Lobet den Herren.
Franz Gnaedinger
Petteri Höglund phoglund alias craoibhin66 alias
he himself as his own good friend Sean Connor
soconn1 alias John Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk
goes on stalking me, ever more pernaciously. He
even menaced me with the court. I have evidence
for the court that he hides behind all those aliases.
Why does he follow me around? Why can't he
simply keep away from me? He got no place in
my life. He should find a place in his own life.
A reasonable task. Attacking and offending and
insulting and harassing and stalking and menacing
me is not a reasonable occupation for an 41 or 42
years old. He is wasting his life away, precious years
that won't come back.
> Panu Petteri Höglund attended three universities,
> but he got nothing to say that hadn't been said
> before and much better in plenty of textbooks.
> He is short of scientific arguments, and so he
> uses every means of getting around a scientific
> discussion. He is desperate for acceptance
> (even secretly hoping I would admire him), but
> he tries to find acceptance in a hopeless way,
> and telling him is to no avail. Born in 1966 he
> is now 41 or 42 years old, when a man is on
> the height of his powers. And what does he do?
> he hangs around in sci.lang, hounding me. What
> a sad waste of time. He needs a reasonable task
> in life, so that he can be proud of himself when
> he once reaches my age.
>
> (end of part 3)
>
> Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 13, 2008
>
> -> Legal statement regarding Panu Petteri Höglund,
> > part 2, my way of posting
>
> > One way of tricking me out is to quote a line or two
> > of a message of mine, snip the rest, and ask me
> > a question -- a question that would have been
> > answered in the snipped lines, so that I must repeat
> > myself, and then again, and again, and again,
> > and all over again, always starting from zero, never
> > getting anywhere. Holding me up in my work is
> > the reason of this behaving. As a counter measure
> > I developed a new way of posting: quoting my own
> > messages, so I can refer to the answer already
> > given in the quote. I discuss in various threads,
> > usually replying to a question, when I have to say
> > something and think I can shed light on a word
> > or a problem from my particular vantage point.
> > And then, when a problem is solved, a word
> > explained, I publish a concise version in my
> > publishing thread (from now on here, in this
> > new publishing thread of mine). I feel entitled to
> > quote my messages in this well considered way,
> > as I _work_ in sci.lang, I don't chat, I don't spread
> > my name in thousands of messages void of any
> > scientific content. My way of posting has another
> > advantage in that my work gets more coherent
> > and is more easily followed, also printed out
> > (several messages in one message). Also I
> > secure my work from a potential random loss
> > of messages from the archive.
>
> > Panu Petteri Höglund menaced me with reporting
> > me to Google for spamming, whereupon I wrote
> > my Open Letter to the Google Company (re Panu
> > Petteri Höglund) on September 19, 2008, in three
> > parts, wherein I also explain my particular way of
> > posting. I sent my letter to Google (reporting Panu
> > Petteri Höglund for stalking me). My Google account
> > was not closed down, no Google administrator and
> > no web official asked me to change my posting policy.
> > I feel free to go on with my work and with my way of
> > publishing and quoting in here, and I end this part of
> > my legal statement with the questions posed at the
> > end of my open letter from September 19: What is
> > the sense of storing terabytes of idle chatter? Why
> > does Google shoot nets if not hoping for fish, or,
> > in this case, ideas?
>
> > (end of part 2, to be continued)
>
> > Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 13, 2008
>
> > -
>
> > > Legal statement regarding Panu Petteri Höglund,
> > > part 1, my work in sci.lang
>
> > > A former regular of sci.lang, Jacques Guy, pasted
> > > a message of mine from sci.archaeology to sci.lang
> > > without informing me. When I found out, I crossposted
> > > the thread "Did the Trojan war really happen the way
> > > Homer said it did?" to sci.lang. In that long thread
> > > I interpreted symbols in Homer - in Homer as focus
> > > of the ancient world. We can read Homer, we get all
> > > his words, but do we really understand him? No, I say,
> > > not until we comprehend the symbols. For example
> > > the Trojan war was caused by beautiful Helen of the
> > > white arms. Can anyone believe this? Hardly. But
> > > Helen is not a woman in Homer, she is the symbol
> > > of tin of the white ingots, and she is surrounded by
> > > a whole family of metals. Tin was rare and precious
> > > in the Bronze Age, it came from the Ore Mountains
> > > in Middle Europe, and from Central Asia, and was
> > > in either way bound to pass Troy ...
>
> > > Sharing ideas is the reason and purpose of posting
> > > to the Usenet. I do share my ideas, I got plenty
> > > ideas, I work in the Usenet, I do not chat and fool
> > > around, and often I publish a new idea on the same
> > > day or on the next morning (for example the one
> > > about Helen). For all the years I spent in Usenet
> > > groups I have been attacked, in every which way,
> > > and perpetually. I was offended time and again,
> > > made fun of, insulted, confronted with every ad
> > > hominem and plenty of lies, even stalked. I am
> > > getting attacked all the time, perpetually, as I said.
> > > First I reply in a scientific way, using scientific
> > > arguments. If it doesn't help I use humor. Colin Fine,
> > > a former member of sci.lang, complimented me
> > > on my humor: I keep it, however hard I am being
> > > attacked. But when the attacks go on for too long
> > > a time, I give back. It is not healthy to swallow all
> > > the poison people spit in my face. Now I am a true
> > > scientist, I got ideas, ergo my words have a weight,
> > > and when I finally, after having issued several warnings,
> > > give back, people wonder that their behaving - they
> > > had been so cozy in their endless attacks on me -
> > > can have consequences, and does have consequences.
>
> > > Jacques Guy, whom I mentioned above, and who had
> > > made a lot of fun of me, protected me in a most decided
> > > and vigorous way in a bad case of stalking by the end
> > > of 2004 and begin of 2005. I thanked him, and I consider
> > > him a true son of Voltaire's country (not being of my
> > > opinion, he defended my freedom of speech). In early
> > > 2005 I reconstructed an amazing lunisolar calendar
> > > from ideograms in the Lascaux cave, looked out for
> > > a matching language, found none in literature, began
> > > reconstructing one myself using the approach by Prof.
> > > Dr. Richard Fester, working first in an intuitive way,
> > > then discovering four laws, using them for mining groups
> > > of Magdalenian words, as I call them, and now I use
> > > them for etymologizing words from recent languages,
> > > for example English bear. Proto-Indo-European PIE
> > > explains bear as the Brown One. I explain bear as
> > > the Furry One, provider of the best fur, thick, longhaired,
> > > soft and warm. As nobody can disprove my etymology,
> > > nor provide new and better evidence for the PIE etymology,
> > > I feel free to go on with my Magdalenian experiment,
> > > in my terms, and in my specific ways of posting (that
> > > will be the topic of the next part of my legal statement
> > > regarding Panu Petteri Höglund). People can always
> > > discuss with me, but in a scientific way. I always tell
> > > them the same: if you don't like what I say, pick out
> > > the worst I say - the worst in your opinion - and I shall
> > > discuss it with you, and at any length you like, this
> > > being the proper way of discussing in a scientific forum,
> > > and the proper way to get somewhere.
>
> > > (end of part 1, to be continued)
>
> > > Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 12, 2008
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Seems I must revive my legal statement, as Panu
> Petteri Höglund phoglund alias craoibhin66 alias
> he himself as his own good friend Sean Connor
> soconn1 alias John Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk
> goes on stalking me, ever more pernaciously. He
> even menaced me with the court. I have evidence
> for the court that he hides behind all those aliases.
We haven't yet heard what crime you are accusing me of.
António Marques
The most amusing part must be 'He even menaced me with the court'. And
out of curiosity, I'd like to understand just what is it about 'aliases'
that Franz thinks is illegal. Could he be referring to article 19,
paragraph b) of the Internet Penal Code?
--
António Marques
Peter T. Daniels
> Seems I must revive my legal statement, as Panu
> Petteri Höglund phoglund alias craoibhin66 alias
> he himself as his own good friend Sean Connor
> soconn1 alias John Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk
> goes on stalking me, ever more pernaciously. He
> even menaced me with the court. I have evidence
> for the court that he hides behind all those aliases.
> Why does he follow me around?
Because you spread like a parasite, a virus, a cancer. If you confined
your speculations, your ravings, to a single message thread, as you
used to do, we could all ignore you in peace. But you have recently
begun taking over and derailing completely irrelevant threads, such
that just about every linguist who used to participate here has, as
you noted yesterday, stopped participating.
> Why can't he
> simply keep away from me? He got no place in
> my life. He should find a place in his own life.
> A reasonable task. Attacking and offending and
> insulting and harassing and stalking and menacing
> me is not a reasonable occupation for an 41 or 42
> years old. He is wasting his life away, precious years
> that won't come back.
Pot, kettle, black.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Nov 17, 10:01 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > Seems I must revive my legal statement, as Panu
> > Petteri Höglund phoglund alias craoibhin66 alias
> > he himself as his own good friend Sean Connor
> > soconn1 alias John Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk
> > goes on stalking me, ever more pernaciously. He
> > even menaced me with the court. I have evidence
> > for the court that he hides behind all those aliases.
> > Why does he follow me around?
>
> Because you spread like a parasite, a virus, a cancer. If you confined
> your speculations, your ravings, to a single message thread, as you
> used to do, we could all ignore you in peace. But you have recently
> begun taking over and derailing completely irrelevant threads, such
> that just about every linguist who used to participate here has, as
> you noted yesterday, stopped participating.
The thought that Franz should be able to disrupt the group
irrecoverably is very disagreeable. Shouldn't we put up a fight?
Peter T. Daniels
You've been doing so, most disagreeably, with the sole result of
encouraging his metastasis.
Franz Gnaedinger
PIR GID was the fire giver, BIR GID was the
fur giver, and BRI GID was the giver of fertility.
PIR GID shone her light and called out for her
sister BIR GID, whereupon BIR GID opened
up her cosmic fur and revealed the world.
But the world was without form, so PIR GID
called out to her sister BRI GID, whereupon
BRI GID divided the world into earth and sky,
and the seeds of plants were in the ground,
and the seeds of animals were in the rock.
But it was cold, so the plants didn't grow,
and the animals did not come forth from the
rock, so PIR GID warmed the earth, and the
plants grew, and animals of every kind
emerged from clefts in the rock and filled
the plains and the air above and the depth
of the waters. PIR GID liked what she saw,
and retired into a beautiful, spacious cave,
lit a big fire, and then hung her torch high
on the sky, where it can still be seen in
the constellation of Perseus. As she called
out to her sister, she was called )OG for
the one who has the say, and as she made
life emerge with her warmth she was called
KAL GID pSAI for Underworld (kal, the cave
wherein she lives) give and take (gid) life
(sai psai), and her fire in the sky was called
PIR SAI for the fire (pir) of life (sai) known
to us in the form of Perseus, while KAL GID
pSAI became Calypso in Homer's Odyssey.
BIR GID became ORE EON on the beautiful
(ore) bank (eon) of the CA LAK or Galaxis,
the heavenly (ca) river or lake (lak) - Orion
on the bank of the Milky Way. As divine hind
CER -: I -: she licks moon bulls into life, thus
creating time, lunations, periods of 30 29 30
29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days, and the
moon bulls waiting to go on their heavenly
mission are waiting in the bright star Aldebaran
in the constellation of Taurus. BRI GID had
separated earth and sky, which were called
AC and CA. She became the Summer Triangle
Deneb Vega Atair high in the sky, personifying
the heavenly river or lake CA LAK as water
mind PIS NOS for flowing water (pis) mind (nos),
which became Venus and Vishnu, the latter
responsible for the arrival of the annual monsoon.
Her water was both the rain falling from the sky,
and the amniotic water of her heavenly womb,
for she gave birth to a worthy soul of a dead ruler
in the beyond, granting him a second life on the
beautiful bank of the heavenly river. The creation
of the world was remembered in the standing
formula )OG BIR AC CA. And in cave art, fur
was represented by parallel lines, filling out the
contours of animals, but also appearing outside
of animals, painted on walls, drawn with fingers
in clay, and carved in rock, evoking the cosmic
fur, its generative and regenerating and healing
powers.
(end of part 1, to be continued)
-
Franz Gnaedinger
The ancient world was called MUC DAL
meaning Valley (dal) of Bulls (muc), and this
had a multiple meaning. The supreme ruler
of the lower Rhone Valley was the bull man,
on a par with the lion man of Vogelherd
and the bird man of the Guyenne. The bulls
grazing in valleys were a prey of the Ice
Age hunters. And then there are the valleys
in the far east, where the moon bull emerges
from the Underworld and climbs the sky,
and the valleys in the far west, where the
moon bull alights and enters the Underworld.
MUC DAL became French monde 'world'
and German Mond 'moon'. The principal tool
of the Stone Age was the hand axe, and its
principal form was the shape of an almond,
whence MUC DAL ancient Greek amygdala
German Mandel English almond. The bull man
as supreme leader accounts for Mac meaning
son and daughter. Consider also maid German
Maid Magd Mägdchen Mädchen Mädel, and
the French female given name Madeleine.
A further compound involving MUC may be
MUC REO Latin mille Italian miglia, a thousand
bulls (muc) running or 'flowing' by (reo), their
heads and shoulders and backs heaving and
rolling like waves, whereas English thousand
German Tausend Dutch duizend goes back to
DAI SAI for protected area (dai) life, existence
(sai, consider sunt sind ...), a thousand people
living or finding protection in an early stronghold
such as Dimini in Thessaly, or a thousand people
gathering in the main hall of a woodhenge. In
a similar way, Latin centum 'hundred' may come
from KOD DOM for hut (kod) camp (dom),
a hundred people living in the huts of a camp,
or gathering in a longhouse in the time of the
Linear Band Ceramics on the river Danube.
(end of part 2, to be continued)
-
Franz Gnaedinger
Climatic changes forced the hunters of the
Ice Age to wander northward and eastward,
and so it came to happen that an influential
tribe reached southeast Anatolia, the region
of Sanli-Urfa, the region of Göbekli Tepe,
just north of the Syrian Harran plain. By now
a moonlike region, it was a paradise 12,000
years ago: lush meadows, groves, game
galore, heading for the cool Anatolian hills
in spring, returning to the warm Syrian plains
in fall. The stone pillar temples of Göbekli
Tepe - which means nabled hill - were built
from 11 600 BP onward, and in use for over
2,000 years, but then, in 9 500 BP, they were
carefully filled up with rubble and abandoned.
There are at least nineteen stone pillar temples,
only a few of them excavated so far by Klaus
Schmidt, who does a great work, proceeding
very carefully. Temple B can be explained as
a lunisolar calendar (a step forward from the
lunisolar calendar of Lascaux and the Late
Magdalenian calendar). A year in the calendar
of Göbekli Tepe has 12 months of 30 days,
plus 5 and occasionally 6 days, while 63
continuous periods of 30 days are 1,890 days
and correspond to 64 lunations. Temple D is
the biggest one excavated so far, and has the
best preserved pillars showing plenty animals,
making Klaus Schmidt think of a Stone Age
zoo: bulls, gazelles, boars, foxes, lions, many
kinds of birds, then also scorpions, spiders,
insects, and the omnipresent snakes. The
ancient name of Göbekli Tepe may have been
AC CA meaning: where earth (ac) and sky (ca)
are meeting, remembered as a Syrian province
by the name of aqa by the ancient Egyptians.
This name was written as a lying H, the two
horizontal bars representing earth and sky,
the slim vertical bar representing the exchanges
between them, especially prayers for rain, and
the smoke of sacrificial fires imploring rain,
both ascending to the sky, and rain falling
from the sky, irrigating the meadows and filling
the river beds, represented and symbolized by
snakes heading upward and downward on a
great many pillars of Göbekli Tepe. Agriculture
started 10,000 years ago, in the late phase of
Göbekli Tepe, at the base of the nearby and
softly ascending Karacadag. Both agriculture
and horticulture asked for irrigation, for plenty
of water. Irrigating fields and gardens required
a lot of work. The easy former life of the hunters
and gatherers and tool makers was replaced
by labor in the fields. There are good reasons
to assume that Göbekli Tepe was the garden
Eden of the Bible. The snake offered an apple
to Eve, Eve and Adam ate it, and were thrown
out of paradise. If the snake symbolizes water,
then the water needed for irrigating of fields
and gardens, especially for dates in Sumer,
and the price for this new step in climbing the
latter of civilization had to be paid in labor.
(end of part 3, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger
Stone pillar temple D shows the form of an
egg, the long axis measuring twenty meters,
the pair of centrals pillars reaching a height
of five meters above the former floor each,
pillar 31 in the west, pillar 18 in the east.
The wide sides of the central pillars show
arms, while the narrow southern faces are
decorated with a bucranium, the head of a bull
- pillar 31 in the west - and a proto-hieroglyphic
inscription - pillar 18 in the east. So pillar 31
may represent the bull man as supreme leader,
while pillar 18 may represent the triple goddess.
The hieroglyphs consist of a standing H on top.
The vertical bar is a hollowed oval that strongly
evokes an open mouth, indicating a shamaness
or a shaman standing between the central pair
of pillars (vertical bars of the H) and speaking
(open mouth, horizontal bar of the standing H)
in the name of the goddess. The phonetic value
of this hieroglyph would be )OG for the one
who has the say: PIR GID and KAL GID pSAI,
the Underworld being indicated by the fox in
the bend of the right arm of pillar 18 (the fox
as guide through the Underworld). Below the
standing H is a ring in sort of a bowl. The 'bowl'
may represent the cosmic fur BIR, and the ring
the primeval word divided into earth and sky
named AC CA. Together we can read the
inspriction as follows: )OG BIR AC CA ...
Foxes guided the sun and moon and the soul
of a worthy dead through the Underworld. The
fox was an able guide, DhAG for able. Latin
dux means leader. Dogs, domesticated in
the era of Göbekli Tepe, are able guards and
protectors. The supreme Celtic god Dagda
was the good god in the sense of the able god.
German taugen means to be fit, able. German
Ding English thing names human made objects
that are 'able' in one or another practical way.
Ugaritic Ding means god, perhaps again in the
sense of the able one, whereas English god
comes from the inverse of DhAG, namely from
GADh for good in the moral sense. Foxes guided
good souls through the Underworld and back to
daylight, while lions and other dangerous animals,
often on the shafts of pillars, upside down, looking
downward, baring their teeth, hinder unworthy souls
from coming back and leaving the Underworld.
Scoprions may be protectors of good souls on their
dangerous way through the Underworld, and snakes
had the meaning of water, were in that sense no
danger, at least not for good souls returning to
daylight and climbing the sky in order to reach
their heavenly abode.
(end of part 4, to be continued)
Franz Gnaedinger
The standing formula for the creation of the
world )OG BIR AC CA was modified through
time and finally became the begin of the Bible,
Genesis 1:1. )OG for the one who has the say
became El or Elohim. BIR for the cosmic fur
became bara' for created - Elohim created -,
in some forms blended with BRA for the right
arm, turning creation into a more deliberate
act, consider BRA MAN Brahman who created
the world playing his lyra with his right hand (man)
and arm (bra). AC for the earth became 'erets,
comparable to Latin agrum English acre arable
earth, German Acker Erde, Swiss Acher Aerde
Härd. And CA for sky, or rather CA MAI for the
sky (ca) promising the pleasure and comfort of
the female zone in a Magdalenian camp (mai)
became shamayim (c- shifting to sh- as in the
case of French court courte English short).
The Jewish tradition has very deep roots that
may here be outlined briefly. The sky god of
Göbekli Tepe was AAR RAA NOS meaning:
mind (nos) of the one composed of air (aar)
and light (raa), seen ex negativo through the
big limestone ring, a god who became the
Greek sky god Ouranos. NOS AAR RAA
as the one who followed the mind (nos) of
the one composed of air (aar) and light (raa)
became Noah. Noah led his people to Armenia,
Armenian comes from AAR RAA MAN for those
who carry out the will of the one composed of
air (aar) and light (raa) with their right hand (man).
AAR RAA NOS is also present in Haran Harran
just south of Göbekli Tepe. Abram Abraham
was linked with Harran, his name can be read
as ABA BRA meaning: he who carries out the
will of the (heavenly) father (aba) with his right
arm (bra). Abraham had a son by the name of
Isaac who may stand in the long line of bird men
as a class of supreme rulers, GhI ShA AC for
a bird call (ghi) ruler (sha) land (ac). Ja'aqob
Jacob whose byname was Israel had a vision
in the wilderness, he sees the Lord in an aureole
on top of a heavenly ladder, and in the morning
he piles up the stones he used for a pillow and
pours oil on the pile, thus making himself the
ruler of the wilderness that was to become Judea.
Now the top of many pillars of the Göbekli Tepe
are covered in cup marks, bowls carved in the
limestone, and these bowls may well have been
filled with fragrant oils when a ruler or leader was
appointed, standing in one of the temples, under
a tall pillar. Jacob is then accepting his fate of
becoming a minor ruler, not a supreme ruler
as his father Isaac, in a gesture of touching
modesty. His name would come from ShA AC,
and his byname Israel from AS RAA ) meaning:
upward (as) to the light (raa) of the Lord (clicking l
that became El and Elohim).
(end of part 5, to be continued)
Craoi...@gmail.com
If more people joined me, he would be disgusted enough to leave the
place.
Franz Gnaedinger
The Cattle of Syria/Palestine were domesticated
some seven thousand years ago in the Hulah
basin, not far north of Lake Tiberias. May it be
that bulls grazed on the fertile parts of the western
shore of Lake Tiberias in the time of Jesus, and
may it be that he objected to this use by saying:
The cattle produce meat for the Romans and
the rich Jews who adopted the Roman way of life.
The bulls produce meat for a few, and block the
way to the lake for our fishermen. We could make
a better use of the fertile parts of the land by
growing fields and planting trees. And we could
save people from death by maintaining medical
centers, and we could make the blind see by
teaching them, and we could make the lame
stand on their on feet and walk by opening schools
and giving them a chance to learn a profession ...
May it be that the ancient name of Magdala,
home of Mary Magdalene, was MUC DAL,
representing an old world that has come to an
end in the eyes of Jesus? May it be that Lazarus,
Martha and Mary from Magdala were siblings
of a wealthy family, supporting Jesus in his plans?
He did wonders. Wonders are contributions to
life. His first wonder was the transformation of
water into wine on the occasion of a marriage.
Love can turn water into wine, metaphorically,
while the best wine can't save a marriage
lacking in love.
(end of part 6)
Craoi...@gmail.com
> insulting and harassing and stalking and menacing
> me is not a reasonable occupation for an 41 or 42
> years old. He is wasting his life away, precious years
> that won't come back.
Just for your information: during the last two and a half years, I
have been learning Armenian, Maltese, and Georgian, all of which I
started to learn from scratch. I am now able to read newspaper Maltese
with diminishing difficulty and have tackled most of Armenian grammar
(but I confess my Georgian is still nothing to write home about). I
have also translated one half of Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" into
Irish, authored a long article about the Irish language in German (I
can send you a copy if you are interested) and written dozens of Irish-
language articles for the Irish Wikipedia. This, in addition to my two
jobs. And it is not all, of course.
Has the thought never crossed your mind that it would be a nice
recreational activity for a busy man to be stalking and killrating a
disgusting spammer?
John Atkinson
Do you really believe this yourself? Some people actually thrive on being
beaten up on, and the more shit you pile on them the happier they are.
My preferred policy is to refrain from responding to them at all. I believe
this would work and they'd eventually go away (though it would take some
time), but for success it would require _everyone_ here to do it
_all_the_time_, since if even one person replies to their posts, especially
they let themself be drawn into a slanging match, it just feeds the wierdo's
ego.
Unfortunately, it seems that some people here don't have the strength of
will to apply this approach consistently, or even at all. (Okay, I'm not
perfect, I do reply to Franz and Dushan's posts myself, very very
occasionally, but I do try.)
John.
Franz Gnaedinger
found a continuation in my new series of messages
posted yesterday: "From the Ice Age to the Bible"
(part 1 - 6). I am happy about the progress of my
work and consider it one more confirmation of
my Magdalenian approach to early language.
PIE, in my opinion, has several shortcomings.
I pointed them out before. Here again. Sound laws
don't really hold, PIE doesn't reach deep enough
in time, there is no reliable idea of early human
language, ever more complicated verbal formulas
are hardly able to represent early words, and the
way archaeology and other scientific disciplines
are dismissed in sci.lang is not acceptable to me.
As phonetic laws don't really hold, paleo-linguistics
can't be done in a quasi-algebraic manner, removed
from life and meaning.
My Magdalenian experiment, beginning in early 2005,
is fully documented in the Google archive. Also the
conditions of my work are documented. New ideas
always encountered massive hostility. Nothing changed
with the global village of the World Wide Web at the
begin of the third millennium AD.
I have often been asked for a test case, otherwise
my Magdalenian approach to early language can't
be considered scientific. I offered several test cases,
the most elaborate one so far is found near the begin
of this here thread: Magdalenian BIR versus PIE *bher-,
English bear as the furry one, provider of the best fur,
thick, longhaired, soft and warm, vs. bear as the brown
one. People killrate my messages, while nobody can
disprove my etymology of bear, nor provide new and
better etymology for the PIE etymology. And so I feel
entitled to go on with my work. The more so as my
new work - the series of messages posted yesterday,
developed for several weeks in another thread -
reveals that BIR has an unexpected cosmological
component opening a new window on a far bygone
past.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 6:17 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Nov 17, 3:39 pm, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>> The thought that Franz should be able to disrupt the group
> >>> irrecoverably is very disagreeable. Shouldn't we put up a fight?-
>
> >> You've been doing so, most disagreeably, with the sole result of
> >> encouraging his metastasis.
>
> > If more people joined me, he would be disgusted enough to leave the
> > place.
>
> Do you really believe this yourself? Some people actually thrive on being
> beaten up on, and the more shit you pile on them the happier they are.
I perfectly understand your point, but I think Franz is not one of
them. A web search suggests that he has been disgusted out of several
forums (not all of them even linguistic) until he settled down here.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> My my I my my my I me.
> My my I my I my my I my my
No reference to anybody else's work, just "I", "my", "me".
Peter T. Daniels
> PIE, in my opinion, has several shortcomings.
> I pointed them out before. Here again. Sound laws
> don't really hold, PIE doesn't reach deep enough
> in time, there is no reliable idea of early human
> language,
That's right. And fantasizing about it doesn't help.
> ever more complicated verbal formulas
> are hardly able to represent early words, and the
> way archaeology and other scientific disciplines
> are dismissed in sci.lang is not acceptable to me.
The only way archeology tells us about ancient language is by
uncovering inscriptions.
> As phonetic laws don't really hold, paleo-linguistics
> can't be done in a quasi-algebraic manner, removed
> from life and meaning.
Until you bother to learn what :"sound law" or "phonetic law" means,
you have no standing to comment on their "holding" -- a contentless
concept.
> I have often been asked for a test case, otherwise
> my Magdalenian approach to early language can't
> be considered scientific. I offered several test cases,
> the most elaborate one so far is found near the begin
> of this here thread: Magdalenian BIR versus PIE *bher-,
> English bear as the furry one, provider of the best fur,
> thick, longhaired, soft and warm, vs. bear as the brown
> one.
For the gazillionth time, how could your "approach" be _falsified_?
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> The only way archeology tells us about ancient language is by
> uncovering inscriptions.
There are plenty of ideograms accompanying
cave art, there is a regular inscription in the Brunel
Chamber of the Chauvet Cave, there is a regular
hieroglyphic inscription on pillar 18, temple D,
Göbekli Tepe.
> Until you bother to learn what :"sound law" or "phonetic law" means,
> you have no standing to comment on their "holding" -- a contentless
> concept.
Mathematical laws hold, ergo mathematics and
geometry and algebra is/are a science. Physical laws
hold, for example the Second Law of Thermodynamics,
ergo physics is a science. Chemical laws hold, ergo
chemistry is a science. Astronomical laws hold, ergo
astronomy is a science. Astrological laws don't hold,
ergo astrology is no science. Economical laws hold
and don't hold, sound laws hold and don't hold, ergo
economics and linguistics are in between science
and astrology.
> For the gazillionth time, how could your "approach" be _falsified_?
If you and your discipline were in possession of laws
that hold - real laws I mean -, you could disprove my
many and bold reconstructions (if they were wrong).
When Watson proposed several molecules and their
combinations in (re-)constructing the DNA, Crick
checked them on the basis of chemical and physical
laws, and as these laws hold, he could falsify the wrong
molecules and forms and structures, and finally confirm
the good construction of the spiralling molecule of life.
Now please get out of my publishing thread, you
are ever repeating yourself, you are ever imposing
your dire narrow views upon everybody else. Do it
outside of my publishing thread. You say all the time
you are not interested in my work and not in what
interests me, for example Göbekli Tepe, so why
do you feel compelled to hang around me all the
time, not respecting my wish of keeping my
publishing thread lean?
Franz Gnaedinger
and the fertility giver BRI GID became the powerful
Celtic triple goddess Brigid. In a beautiful book
by Iain Zaczek, The Cronicle of the Celts, I find this
caption on the festival of Brigid:
Imbolc was the second of the Celtic seasonal
festivals, covering the months of February,
March and April. The chief rituals were carried
out on 1 February and had strong associations
with fertility. In pastoral terms, they were linked
with lambing and the lactation of ewes. The
festival was also devoted to the powerful triple
goddess Brigid. In her different aspects, she
was influential in the fields of healing, poetry
and smithcraft. Poets regarded her as the
source of literary inspiration and her protection
was frequently invoked by mothers in childbirth.
In Ireland, she was probably connected to the
worship of Brigantia, a northern British deity,
and also with the Irish saint of the same name.
It can be no coincidence that the latter's feast
day is celebrated on 1 February, the same day
as Imbolc.
You may also consider that the Christian festival
of the Candlemass or Purification (of the Virgin
Mary) is on the same day, February 1 (to my
knowledge).
The fire giver PIR GID, accounting for both candles
and smithcraft, was also )OG for the one who has
the say, accounting for poetry in the above enumeration.
How does fire go along with language? Consider the
Christian festival of Pentecost, going back to the
Holy Ghost in the form of a dove endowing people
with a universal language descending on the their
heads in the form of flames ...
-
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
>
> If you and your discipline were in possession of laws
> that hold - real laws I mean -, you could disprove my
> many and bold reconstructions (if they were wrong).
Your "reconstructions" cannot be disproved any more than "The Lord of
the Rings" can be disproved. The very fact that they can't be
disproved shows they are no science.
>
> Now please get out of my publishing thread,
It is not publishing, it is called spamming. And you have no business
telling people what they should be doing in your "publishing thread".
Do you honestly think you own the place? If you see it as your God-
given right to insert your odious and worthless Magdalenian crap most
everywhere, you can be damn sure that you'll be paid back.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Nov 19, 4:02 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The only way archeology tells us about ancient language is by
> > uncovering inscriptions.
>
> There are plenty of ideograms accompanying
> cave art, there is a regular inscription in the Brunel
> Chamber of the Chauvet Cave, there is a regular
> hieroglyphic inscription on pillar 18, temple D,
> Göbekli Tepe.
If all they are is "ideograms," then they're not writing, and there is
no way to assign phonetic readings to them -- because they don't have
any specific ones.
> > Until you bother to learn what :"sound law" or "phonetic law" means,
> > you have no standing to comment on their "holding" -- a contentless
> > concept.
>
> Mathematical laws hold, ergo mathematics and
> geometry and algebra is/are a science. Physical laws
> hold, for example the Second Law of Thermodynamics,
> ergo physics is a science. Chemical laws hold, ergo
> chemistry is a science. Astronomical laws hold, ergo
> astronomy is a science. Astrological laws don't hold,
> ergo astrology is no science. Economical laws hold
> and don't hold, sound laws hold and don't hold, ergo
> economics and linguistics are in between science
> and astrology.
How many times do you have to be told that "Lautgesetz" has nothing to
do with "laws of physics"?
> > For the gazillionth time, how could your "approach" be _falsified_?
>
> If you and your discipline were in possession of laws
> that hold - real laws I mean -,
No one but you has ever claimed that it does.
> you could disprove my
> many and bold reconstructions (if they were wrong).
It's your responsibility to say what evidence could disprove your
hypothesis.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> If all they are is "ideograms," then they're not writing, and there is
> no way to assign phonetic readings to them -- because they don't have
> any specific ones.
Your time as dicator of sci.lang is over. Narrow
opinions such as yours peter out automatically,
as barren views lead nowhere. You'd better use
your remaining years for doing something that
would open a way into the future. I identify many
of the ideograms with words, the ideograms that
accompany the bulls in the rotunda of Lascaux,
for example. Rectangular forms have the phonetic
value DAI for protected area, dots have the value
of SAI for life, existence, and in the case of the
domino five plus an additional dot in the Chauvet
cave they have the meaning of PAS for everywhere
in a plain, here, south and north of me, east and
west of me, all in all five places, while the dot
next to the upper left dot of the domino five can
be read as CA for sky, yielding the message:
O O O CA
O
O O PAS
PAS CA --- everywhere (pas) in the sky (ca),
may the bull man (the supreme leader) roam the sky
in his next life as he roams the land in this life. Now
the bull man is depicted on a stalactite in the rear
hall of the Chauvet cave, next to a Venus (legs and
vulva) who can be identified with the Summer Triangle
Deneb Vega Atair, and, most remarkably, the same
couple is present in the pair of central pillars of temple
D, Göbekli Tepe -- pillar 31 marked with a bucranium,
the head of a bull, and pillar 18 with a hieroglyphic
inscription I read as )OG BIR AC CA which refers
to the act of creation performed by the triple goddess,
one emanation of which is BRI GID identical with the
Venus of Chauvet. And then again I may remind you
of Michael Janda, who, relying on his studies of the
Rig Veda, came to the conclusion that people of the
Stone Age must have believed in a heavenly abode.
This heavenly abode is the Summer Triangle, and
the banks of the Milky Way as heavenly river.
> How many times do you have to be told that "Lautgesetz" has nothing to
> do with "laws of physics"?
All honest PIE scholars admit that their reconstructions
are half scientific half guesswork. Because sound laws
don't really hold. Linguistics is not yet a real science. But
you thunder along as if you were in the possession of truth,
pure gold, solid certainty.
> It's your responsibility to say what evidence could disprove your
> hypothesis.
Scientific laws could disprove my hypothesis, but linguistics
does not possess real laws. Linguistics is in the same state
as astrology in Babylonian times. Some of it was science,
some of it was superstition, and both were packed into solid
dogmatism, allowing no doubt. The more obvious the faults
became, the more dogmatic the dogmaticians became,
the Peter T. Danielses of old, until, finally, the whole thing
burst, and science was extracted from astrology and became
what we know as astronomy, while astrology was the rest,
all the nonsense that was discarded by science. Linguistics
has to undergo a similar process, extract real scientific laws
from the vague half-laws of present-day linguistics, but this
can't be done by dogmaticians, and least of all by dogmaticians
of your caliber, re as publi can in your authoritarian stance.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Nov 20, 1:47 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If all they are is "ideograms," then they're not writing, and there is
> > no way to assign phonetic readings to them -- because they don't have
> > any specific ones.
>
> Your time as dicator of sci.lang is over. Narrow
> opinions such as yours peter out automatically,
> as barren views lead nowhere. You'd better use
> your remaining years for doing something that
> would open a way into the future. I identify many
> of the ideograms with words, the ideograms that
(a) But you INVENTED the words.
(b) If each one corresponds to a specific "word" in your invented
"language," then they are, by definition, not "ideograms."
> > How many times do you have to be told that "Lautgesetz" has nothing to
> > do with "laws of physics"?
>
> All honest PIE scholars admit that their reconstructions
> are half scientific half guesswork. Because sound laws
> don't really hold. Linguistics is not yet a real science. But
> you thunder along as if you were in the possession of truth,
> pure gold, solid certainty.
It's really not my fault that you cannot rid your tiny brain of its
misperception of "Lautgesetz."
> > It's your responsibility to say what evidence could disprove your
> > hypothesis.
>
> Scientific laws could disprove my hypothesis, but linguistics
No, "laws" do not falsify hypotheses. Only EVIDENCE does that.
(If "laws" existed, you would have to be pretty stupid to offer a
hypothesis that violated them.)
> does not possess real laws. Linguistics is in the same state
> as astrology in Babylonian times. Some of it was science,
Another thing you know nothing of: Mesoptamian astrology.
(Which had nothing to do with Mesopotamian astronomy.)
> some of it was superstition, and both were packed into solid
> dogmatism, allowing no doubt. The more obvious the faults
> became, the more dogmatic the dogmaticians became,
> the Peter T. Danielses of old, until, finally, the whole thing
> burst, and science was extracted from astrology and became
> what we know as astronomy, while astrology was the rest,
Another thing you know nothing of: the history of Mesopotamian
science.
> all the nonsense that was discarded by science. Linguistics
> has to undergo a similar process, extract real scientific laws
> from the vague half-laws of present-day linguistics, but this
> can't be done by dogmaticians, and least of all by dogmaticians
> of your caliber, re as publi can in your authoritarian stance.
You might have a look at "synergetic linguistics," a curous attempt to
mathematicize the study of language. Unfortunately the only data
available to it concern the frequency and length of components of
speech or writing, so it has little to tell us about language. It
stems from the work of G. K. Zipf, which was recognized already in his
lifetime as essentially tautological.
The most convenient and accessible reference work is the encyclopedic
*Quantitavie Linguistik* (about half in English and half in German),
in the de Gruyter series of Handbuecher zur Sprach- und
Kommunikationswissenschaft. The editors include Reinhard Koehler and
Gerhard Altmann, and it was published in 2006.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Nov 20, 1:47 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If all they are is "ideograms," then they're not writing, and there is
> > no way to assign phonetic readings to them -- because they don't have
> > any specific ones.
>
> Your time as dicator of sci.lang is over.
Have you bought the place, then? Who from?
Trond Engen
No need. His strategy is liberation through extinction.
--
Trond Engen
- more into extinction through libation
Trond Engen
> Another thing you know nothing of: Mesoptamian astrology.
>
> (Which had nothing to do with Mesopotamian astronomy.)
Many years ago, a nice spring evening in Stavanger, I sat on a bench
reading, when from the shrubbery behind me I suddenly heard what
appeared to be the leader of a patrol of girl guides instructing her
proselytes:
"No, no. You should never mix astrology and astronomy. One is a science,
the other is pure fantasy ... Me, I believe in astrology."
--
Trond Engen
- on a benchmark experience
Peter T. Daniels
> Craoibhi...@gmail.com skreiv:
>
> > On Nov 20, 4:33 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> >> On Nov 20, 1:47 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>> If all they are is "ideograms," then they're not writing, and there
> >>> is no way to assign phonetic readings to them -- because they don't
> >>> have any specific ones.
>
> >> Your time as dicator of sci.lang is over.
>
> > Have you bought the place, then? Who from?
>
> No need. His strategy is liberation through extinction.
As in, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it"? (One of
the more prominent quotations to emerge from the Vietnam War.)
Adam Funk
> the most elaborate one so far is found near the begin
> of this here thread: Magdalenian BIR versus PIE *bher-,
> English bear as the furry one, provider of the best fur,
> thick, longhaired, soft and warm, vs. bear as the brown
> one. People killrate my messages, while nobody can
> disprove my etymology of bear, nor provide new and
> better etymology for the PIE etymology. And so I feel
> entitled to go on with my work. The more so as my
> new work - the series of messages posted yesterday,
> developed for several weeks in another thread -
> reveals that BIR has an unexpected cosmological
> component opening a new window on a far bygone
> past.
I saw this somewhere else by chance and thought it might be of
interest to you.
http://www.ancientmusic.co.uk/bear_tribe/
Midwinter Bear Feast
20th December 2008 at the Cranborne Ancient Technology Centre
One of Mankind's oldest spiritual impulses is Arctolatry, The
Worship of the Bear. When we first came to the northern forests Bear
taught us to find food. When we starved in the depths of winter the
flesh of the bear sustained us. Teacher and Saviour, his corpse
alarmingly man-like when stripped of its warm fur, mystery and taboo
surrounded the animal whose name must not be spoken. A child of the
Sky God, lowered from on high on a golden chain, he is guest of
honour at his own funeral feast. With thanks and messages for his
Father his spirit is sent back to Heaven that he may return and feed
us again in our need time.
--
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of
the American public. [Mencken]
Franz Gnaedinger
(...)
You are done as dictator of sci.lang.
Your successor, waiting to take over,
pawing the ground, braying, is a caricature
of you. He doesn't like you but admires your
power games and emulates your posting
style, which is pathetic, as he got only a tiny
fraction of your knowledge about linguistics.
He can't replace you and achieve what you
did. I wished you could abandon your power
games and go on with your good work. Alas,
I hope in vain and am left with my second
wish: that you kept away from me and took
that onager of a crown prince with you.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> I saw this somewhere else by chance and thought it might be of
> interest to you.
>
> http://www.ancientmusic.co.uk/bear_tribe/
>
> Midwinter Bear Feast
>
> 20th December 2008 at the Cranborne Ancient Technology Centre
>
> One of Mankind's oldest spiritual impulses is Arctolatry, The
> Worship of the Bear. When we first came to the northern forests Bear
> taught us to find food. When we starved in the depths of winter the
> flesh of the bear sustained us. Teacher and Saviour, his corpse
> alarmingly man-like when stripped of its warm fur, mystery and taboo
> surrounded the animal whose name must not be spoken. A child of the
> Sky God, lowered from on high on a golden chain, he is guest of
> honour at his own funeral feast. With thanks and messages for his
> Father his spirit is sent back to Heaven that he may return and feed
> us again in our need time.
Thank you for the link and quote. Worship of bears
is well known from the Paleolithic onward. A bear
skull was found in the Chauvet cave, and this cave
was closed by a falling boulder some 28,000 years
ago, the bear skull was in all probabilty deposited
on purpose. And we have evidence that bear skulls
were deliberately deposited in other caves, on
pedestals, and they symbolized the heavenely vault
(Marie E.P. König). Bears have a lot in common
with humans, they stand up on their hind legs,
and they are very sly, and curious too, and very
strong, a bear has the power of a dozen men.
Female bears are devoted mothers. They are the
kings of the forests, and always raised admiration
and fear in equal measures. And they provided
the best fur, thick, longhaired, soft and warm.
In Switzerland we have a region where village
names indicate former bear hunting, and I assume
that also Middle England (if there is such a term)
was a bear hunting zone. Birmingham has hundred
names, could it go back to Magdalenian BIR MAN
for those who handle (man) fur (bir)? Shakespeare
is from that region, he speaks of a bearing cloth
in The Winter's Tale, Act 3 Scene 3, a rich cloth
in which a newborn was carried to be christened.
And, strangely, a bear is playing a crucial role
in that scene. As if the bearing cloth of a former
pagan time was a bear fur, and the bear is taking
revenge for all the fur that was stolen from him and
her. I guess there was a still vivid tradition of stories
and legends regarding bears in the youth of the bard,
and the revival of bear rituals you are reporting
may testify to this assumption of mine. Thank you.
Craoi...@gmail.com
I assume
> that also Middle England (if there is such a term)
> was a bear hunting zone.
There are no wild bears in England and haven't been for ages, if at
all. Bears have been imported for bear-baiting though, from places
such as Lithuania. Bear-baiting was a popular blood sport in England
for centuries.
Birmingham has hundred
> names, could it go back to Magdalenian BIR MAN
> for those who handle (man) fur (bir)?
No, it couldn't, because Magdalenian is a fiction concocted by Franz
Gnaedinger.
Franz Gnaedinger
The eastern central pillar of temple D, Göbekli
Tepe, 11 600 - 9 500 BP, represents the powerful
triple goddess of old, and the hieroglyphic inscription
)OG BIR AC CA as origin of Genesis 1:1 testifies
to the high age of the Jewish tradition. ) and )OG
became El and Elohim of the Jews, Allah of the
Muslims, logos of the Greeks, logic and reason
of the atheists and agnostics and pantheists,
and the Lord of the Christians, and as all these
religions and world views have the same root,
they should go along. One of the most important
rituals of Göbekli Tepe was invoking rain, whence
Latin aqua 'water'. By then a paradise, the region
is now a moonlike landscape. Water is again the
main problem of Asia Minor, and also of northern
Africa, where soon 30,000,000 people will live.
The Israelis use and develop the most clever
methods for greening the land, presently the Negev,
while the Arabs did wonders in the past, consider
the six-hundred meters long dam at Marib, Yemen,
associated with the memory of Bilqis, queen of
Sheba, beloved by Solomon: this dam made a big
oasis bloom and nourished 30,000 people (for
comparison: Rome of the early Renaissance had
40,000 inhabitants). The Nabataeans dwelling
along the wadis of the eastern, Arabian shore
of the Red Sea built many small dams that kept
the bi-annual rain. The ancient ways of greening
the land could be revived with modern methods,
by international and transcultural working groups,
Israelis and Arabs, men and women united in
their task, sponsored by Europe with knowledge
and money and technical facilities. Jordania is
a vast country, 70 (seventy) per cent of their water
evaporates unused, and there is plenty of solar
energy available as well. A lot of possibilities
for young people wishing to do something for
a better future on our planet.
Craoi...@gmail.com
So, Franz would say: "We (majestic plural) had to inundate the place
with spam to save it from the people who wanted to use it for what it
is meant to be used for."
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Nov 20, 4:15 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> (...)
>
> You are done as dictator of sci.lang.
> Your successor, waiting to take over,
> pawing the ground, braying, is a caricature
> of you.
Who are you talking about?
Pat
more tripe, as usual.
Adam Funk
> So, Franz would say: "We (majestic plural) had to inundate the place
> with spam to save it from the people who wanted to use it for what it
> is meant to be used for."
I doubt that Franz's posts meet any standard definition of spam (for a
start, they are not commercial or multi-posted).
As far as I can tell, Franz does not morph. If you switched from
Google Groups to a news client, you could configure it so that you
would never even see any posts by Franz (or anyone else you don't want
to read) or with unwanted keywords in the subject again.
--
Do not use _literally_ to intensify a metaphorical exaggeration.
People in a famine relief camp may be _literally_ starving, but
it is not a thing to say about oneself towards lunchtime.
(Gowers, _The Complete Plain Words_)
Franz Gnaedinger
my publishing thread lean. They do not respect
my wish. Panu Petteri Höglund feels compelled
to smear his dirt around wherever I go, and he
feels at home here in my publishing thread:
I warned him many times to keep away from
this thread, to no avail. I announced to write a new
series of messages on the psychopathology of
stalking if he doesn't get out of this here thread.
He shows up again, he just can't keep away from
me, being obsessed with me, and so I do as
announced, I will write that series of messages
on the psychopathology of stalking.
Back in 1995 I worked on a project I called SABA.
Now I found a historical, even archaeological
background for that project and posted a brief
version yesterday here in this thread, but as my
thread is messed up by my stalker I published my
message at the wrong place. So here again, at
the right place. Considering the abysmal level of
chatting in sci.lang (also noted by others who have
been driven away from this forum) I have every right
to repeat a good scientific message of mine.
Project SABA or Sheba (postscirpt to my series
"From Göbekli Tepe to the Bible")
The eastern central pillar of temple D, Göbekli
Tepe, 11 600 - 9 500 BP, represents the powerful
triple goddess of old, and the hieroglyphic inscription
)OG BIR AC CA - in my opinion the ur-form of
Genesis 1:1 - testifies to the very high age of the
Jewish tradition. ) and )OG became El and Elohim
of the Jews, Allah of the Muslims, logos of the Greeks,
logic and reason of the atheists and agostics and
pantheists, and the Lord of the Christians. All these
religions and world views having the same root,
they can go along. One of the most important rituals
of Göbekli Tepe, whose ancient name was AC CA,
were prayers for rain, wherefrom Latin aqua 'water'.
The region of Göbekli Tepe was then a paradise,
by now it is a moonlike landscape. Water is again
a big problem for Asia Minor, and also for Africa -
Northern Africa will soon reach a population of
thirty million people. Back in 1995 I worked on
a project I called SABA, the English version would
be Sheba, and I am now reminded of that project.
The Israelis develop clever ways of greening the
Negev, while the Arabs were famous for their dams
in the past. The six-hundred meters long dam of Marib,
Yemen, made a big oasis bloom and nourished
30,000 people (for comparison: Rome of the Early
Renaissance had 40,000 inhabitants). The dam of
Marib is linked with the memory of Bilqis, queen of
Saba or Sheba, loved by Solomon (who, Isreal
Finkelstein postulates, symbolizes the united
kingdom of Judea and Israel in the time between
roughly 700 and 500 BC). The Nabataeans dewilling
on the Arabian shore of the Red Sea built small dams
in the wadis keeping the bi-annual rain. How about
reviving the ancient traditions with modern technology?
by international and transcultural working groups?
Israelis and Arabs, men and women working together,
united in their task? supported with knowledge and
money and technical facilities by Europe? Jordania
is a vast country, 70 (seventy) percent of their water
evaporates unused, and there is plenty of solar
energy availabe too ... A lot of possibilities for young
people wishing to do something for a better future
on our planet, beginning in a crisis-ridden region
that is also a challenge for every US American
administration.
-
Craoi...@gmail.com
> I asked people to respect my wish of keeping
> my publishing thread lean. They do not respect
> my wish. Panu Petteri Höglund feels compelled
> to smear his dirt around wherever I go, and he
> feels at home here in my publishing thread:
> I warned him many times to keep away from
> this thread, to no avail.
You have no business using sci.lang for your spam, and you have no
business telling people to stay out of your thread.
Sci.lang does NOT exist to provide you with a platform for your
"publishing" activities. You already have a website, where you can
make your screeds available to any lunatic who is masochistic enough
to actually read your rants. You are neither morally no legally
justified to tell people what to do in this group, and what you are
doing is actually illegal in many jurisdictions. In Finland, you could
actually be sued for a crime called obstruction of telecommunication
(tietoliikenteen häirintä).
Peter T. Daniels
> I asked people to respect my wish of keeping
> my publishing thread lean. They do not respect
> my wish.
How is that different from you injecting your Magdalenian fantasies
into legitimate threads on things like divine names in Semitic
languages?
Franz Gnaedinger
I have been stalked before, stalked with methods
from the arsenal of psychopathology. The present
case has many parallels to the former one. Laying
the foils on each other, as it were, I recognize a
pattern, and combining it with what I know about
stalking I see a general picture. I will render this
general picture in my new series of messages.
On October 12 (one message) and October 13
(two more messages) I published my legal statement
regarding Panu Petteri Höglund, hoping it will suffice
to keep him away from me, at least from my publishing
thread which I wanted to keep lean. But he goes on
following me around, stalking and menacing me,
feeling at home here in my publishing thread, ignoring
all my warnings, and smearing his dirt around wherever
I go. He can't keep away from me. Being obsessed
with me he must go on and on and on. Now I do as
announced in another thread and post a series of
messages on the psychopathology of stalking.
Some time ago a retired lawyer contacted me and
asked me about the former case. I told him, and he
was satisfied; now, finally, he understands, he told me.
Seems there are people around who study what goes
on in the web fora. My series may also interest them.
And then there are young people of a certain disposition
who can fall into a trap and turn into stalkers without
noticing in the begin, and when they notice it's too late
and they can't turn back. My series is also for them.
While a stalker à la Panu Petteri Höglund is decided
to go all the way to the bitter end, no way to hold him up.
(end of part 1, to be continued)
Below: my legal statement, first published in October
12 and 13:
> Legal statement regarding Panu Petteri Höglund,
> part 3, Panu Petteri Höglund
>
> When Panu Petteri Höglund came (again) on board
> sci.lang, he attacked me out of the blue, apparently
> hoping to climb the social ladder of this forum by
> doing so. I did a brief Google query on him and
> pointed out the ugly messages he posted to soc.men.
> He got furious and told me in German my head may
> burst the sooner the better. He attacked me ever
> since, and he bragged about being my one and
> only killrater - meanwhile I got some 5,000 ratings,
> most of them killratings (my term for systematically
> downrating a poster by giving one Google star for
> poor quality). Panu Petteri Höglund has more than
> one Usenet identity:
>
> phoglund @ abo.fi 1,771 messages to sci.lang,
> total number of messages - cross-postings to
> other groups included - 20,949
>
> craoibhin66 @ gmail.com from March 2008
> onward, 780 messages and counting
>
> soconn1 @ comcast.net one single message
> on August 4, 2008, 8:04 pm
>
> jhobartkyle @ gmail.com nickname johnk
>
> As phoglund and craoibhin he chased and chases
> me, as soconn1 he praised himself as his own good
> friend, and as jhobartkyle 'johnk' he attacks me and
> attacks me and attacks me, in the same way as
> phoglund in early 2006, lately even using the same
> words. Can he also killrate me four times using
> his four identities?
>
> Panu Petteri Höglund attended three universities,
> but he got nothing to say that hadn't been said
> before and much better in plenty of textbooks.
> He is short of scientific arguments, and so he
> uses every means of getting around a scientific
> discussion. He is desperate for acceptance
> (even secretly hoping I would admire him), but
> he tries to find acceptance in a hopeless way,
> and telling him is to no avail. Born in 1966 he
> is now 41 or 42 years old, when a man is on
> the height of his powers. And what does he do?
> he hangs around in sci.lang, hounding me. What
> a sad waste of time. He needs a reasonable task
> in life, so that he can be proud of himself when
> he once reaches my age.
>
> (end of part 3)
>
> Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 13, 2008
>
> -
>
> > Legal statement regarding Panu Petteri Höglund,
> > part 2, my way of posting
>
> > One way of tricking me out is to quote a line or two
> > of a message of mine, snip the rest, and ask me
> > a question -- a question that would have been
> > answered in the snipped lines, so that I must repeat
> > myself, and then again, and again, and again,
> > and all over again, always starting from zero, never
> > getting anywhere. Holding me up in my work is
> > the reason of this behaving. As a counter measure
> > I developed a new way of posting: quoting my own
> > messages, so I can refer to the answer already
> > given in the quote. I discuss in various threads,
> > usually replying to a question, when I have to say
> > something and think I can shed light on a word
> > or a problem from my particular vantage point.
> > And then, when a problem is solved, a word
> > explained, I publish a concise version in my
> > publishing thread (from now on here, in this
> > new publishing thread of mine). I feel entitled to
> > quote my messages in this well considered way,
> > as I _work_ in sci.lang, I don't chat, I don't spread
> > my name in thousands of messages void of any
> > scientific content. My way of posting has another
> > advantage in that my work gets more coherent
> > and is more easily followed, also printed out
> > (several messages in one message). Also I
> > secure my work from a potential random loss
> > of messages from the archive.
>
> > Panu Petteri Höglund menaced me with reporting
> > me to Google for spamming, whereupon I wrote
> > my Open Letter to the Google Company (re Panu
> > Petteri Höglund) on September 19, 2008, in three
> > parts, wherein I also explain my particular way of
> > posting. I sent my letter to Google (reporting Panu
> > Petteri Höglund for stalking me). My Google account
> > was not closed down, no Google administrator and
> > no web official asked me to change my posting policy.
> > I feel free to go on with my work and with my way of
> > publishing and quoting in here, and I end this part of
> > my legal statement with the questions posed at the
> > end of my open letter from September 19: What is
> > the sense of storing terabytes of idle chatter? Why
> > does Google shoot nets if not hoping for fish, or,
> > in this case, ideas?
>
> > (end of part 2, to be continued)
>
> > Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 13, 2008
>
> > -
>
> > > Legal statement regarding Panu Petteri Höglund,
> > > part 1, my work in sci.lang
>
> > > A former regular of sci.lang, Jacques Guy, pasted
> > > a message of mine from sci.archaeology to sci.lang
> > > without informing me. When I found out, I crossposted
> > > the thread "Did the Trojan war really happen the way
> > > Homer said it did?" to sci.lang. In that long thread
> > > I interpreted symbols in Homer - in Homer as focus
> > > of the ancient world. We can read Homer, we get all
> > > his words, but do we really understand him? No, I say,
> > > not until we comprehend the symbols. For example
> > > the Trojan war was caused by beautiful Helen of the
> > > white arms. Can anyone believe this? Hardly. But
> > > Helen is not a woman in Homer, she is the symbol
> > > of tin of the white ingots, and she is surrounded by
> > > a whole family of metals. Tin was rare and precious
> > > in the Bronze Age, it came from the Ore Mountains
> > > in Middle Europe, and from Central Asia, and was
> > > in either way bound to pass Troy ...
>
> > > Sharing ideas is the reason and purpose of posting
> > > to the Usenet. I do share my ideas, I got plenty
> > > ideas, I work in the Usenet, I do not chat and fool
> > > around, and often I publish a new idea on the same
> > > day or on the next morning (for example the one
> > > about Helen). For all the years I spent in Usenet
> > > groups I have been attacked, in every which way,
> > > and perpetually. I was offended time and again,
> > > made fun of, insulted, confronted with every ad
> > > hominem and plenty of lies, even stalked. I am
> > > getting attacked all the time, perpetually, as I said.
> > > First I reply in a scientific way, using scientific
> > > arguments. If it doesn't help I use humor. Colin Fine,
> > > a former member of sci.lang, complimented me
> > > on my humor: I keep it, however hard I am being
> > > attacked. But when the attacks go on for too long
> > > a time, I give back. It is not healthy to swallow all
> > > the poison people spit in my face. Now I am a true
> > > scientist, I got ideas, ergo my words have a weight,
> > > and when I finally, after having issued several warnings,
> > > give back, people wonder that their behaving - they
> > > had been so cozy in their endless attacks on me -
> > > can have consequences, and does have consequences.
>
> > > Jacques Guy, whom I mentioned above, and who had
> > > made a lot of fun of me, protected me in a most decided
> > > and vigorous way in a bad case of stalking by the end
> > > of 2004 and begin of 2005. I thanked him, and I consider
> > > him a true son of Voltaire's country (not being of my
> > > opinion, he defended my freedom of speech). In early
> > > 2005 I reconstructed an amazing lunisolar calendar
> > > from ideograms in the Lascaux cave, looked out for
> > > a matching language, found none in literature, began
> > > reconstructing one myself using the approach by Prof.
> > > Dr. Richard Fester, working first in an intuitive way,
> > > then discovering four laws, using them for mining groups
> > > of Magdalenian words, as I call them, and now I use
> > > them for etymologizing words from recent languages,
> > > for example English bear. Proto-Indo-European PIE
> > > explains bear as the Brown One. I explain bear as
> > > the Furry One, provider of the best fur, thick, longhaired,
> > > soft and warm. As nobody can disprove my etymology,
> > > nor provide new and better evidence for the PIE etymology,
> > > I feel free to go on with my Magdalenian experiment,
> > > in my terms, and in my specific ways of posting (that
> > > will be the topic of the next part of my legal statement
> > > regarding Panu Petteri Höglund). People can always
> > > discuss with me, but in a scientific way. I always tell
> > > them the same: if you don't like what I say, pick out
> > > the worst I say - the worst in your opinion - and I shall
> > > discuss it with you, and at any length you like, this
> > > being the proper way of discussing in a scientific forum,
> > > and the proper way to get somewhere.
>
> > > (end of part 1, to be continued)
>
> > > Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, October 12, 2008
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On October 12 (one message) and October 13
> (two more messages) I published my legal statement
> regarding Panu Petteri Höglund, hoping it will suffice
> to keep him away from me,
Franz, how many times do I need to point out this to you?
- A newsgroup is not a publishing forum. It is a forum for small talk,
in this case for linguistic small talk.
- You have no business telling people not to write in this thread.
This thread is not your property,
- What you are doing (mass-mailing long messages in a newsgroup
several times) is called spamming. It is widely frowned upon as breach
of netiquette, and it is also illegal in many jurisdictions. In
Finland, it is punished as obstruction of telecommunications traffic.
To sum up: you have no legal leg to stand on, and you are the offender
and the bad guy.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On 2008-11-26, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > So, Franz would say: "We (majestic plural) had to inundate the place
> > with spam to save it from the people who wanted to use it for what it
> > is meant to be used for."
>
> I doubt that Franz's posts meet any standard definition of spam (for a
> start, they are not commercial or multi-posted).
In Finland, the legal definition of spam - or, as the criminal code
would have it, obstruction of telecommunications traffic - is "sending
obstructive messages in a telecommunications network". This covers
both commercial spam and ideological spam.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> > So, Franz would say: "We (majestic plural) had to inundate the place
> > with spam to save it from the people who wanted to use it for what it
> > is meant to be used for."
>
> I doubt that Franz's posts meet any standard definition of spam (for a
> start, they are not commercial or multi-posted).
Depends on the definition of multi-posting. Franz has definitely
posted the same content - verbatim - several times.
Franz Gnaedinger
Magdalenian )OG for the one who has the say
has many derivatives, Greek logos, Latin legere
'read' and lex 'law', English logic, perhaps also
laugh and lore and learn and lesson, while the
Old English forms of Lord were hlaford and
hlafweard 'loaf-ward, one who guards the loaves'.
As far as I know, the word appears for the first time
in a translation of the Bible, and it may well have
been that the translator looked out for a word that
matched LO in Elohim and logos ("In the beginning
was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God" John 1:1), whereby HL in
hlaford and hlafweard is a good approximation
to the clicking L given as ) in )OG for the one
who has the say. Give us our daily bread, the
Lord is asked in the Pater Noster. Latin Dominus
for the Lord would come from DOM for a camp,
denoting the ruler of a camp, also the one who
has the say.
-
Peter T. Daniels
In the US, there is no possibility of government control of
"ideology." Finkland once again kowtowing to its formerly powerful
neighbor?
Craoi...@gmail.com
Ideological spam is for instance Neo-Nazis sending you three thousand
e.mails per week telling that you are a Swedish-speaking baboon dog.
Peter T. Daniels
In the US, Neo-Nazis have the right to send emails.
If the sending of 3000 emails per week is prohibited, it is not
prohibited only from neo-Nazis, but from anyone.
Craoi...@gmail.com
So, if you received 3000 emails per week from a known and notorious
Neo-Nazi, calling you a baboon dog and describing in minute detail his
fantasies of you having homosexual encounters with Barack Obama and
Osama bin Laden, you would have no possibility to sue him or to have
the flood stopped?
This is not a theoretical example, See the link.
António Marques
For the fennic-impaired, what's with the 2 naked women here?
http://lehtoseppo.blogspot.com/2006/04/omistanpa-tmn-kiitokseksi-saamastani.html
Peter T. Daniels
If I received 3000 emails a week from Barack Obama telling me I am the
greatest American who ever lived, I would have grounds for complaint.
But if he wanted to send me one message to that effect, or if a known
and notorious Neo-Nazi sent me one message calling me a baboon dog
etc., that is their privilege. If I didn't care for the message, I
could delete it, and perhaps not open the occasional additional
message from him.
But the government has absolutely no authority to regulate the
_content_ of messages.
When Germany instituted such bans on Nazi-related speech, it was
widely viewed as nothing less than a return to precisely the days of
the Nazi regime.
> This is not a theoretical example, See the link.
>
Craoi...@gmail.com
Our good Seppo always illustrated his racist rants with intriguing
pictures of naked women and sexual intercourse.
Trond Engen
You miss Panu's point, and he failed to make it clearer in his
follow-ups. As I read it, his original point was exactly that Finnish
law makes no distinction based on the motivation of the spammer, nor
does it on the method of distribution. The only concern is the effect,
"obstruction of telecommunication".
> When Germany instituted such bans on Nazi-related speech, it was
> widely viewed as nothing less than a return to precisely the days of
> the Nazi regime.
While I agree that limitations on civil liberties are an evil, that
comparison is a gross exaggeration -- and an unintended diminition of
the horrors of Nazi Germany. Also, the difference between the post-war
German and the American attitudes towards freedom of speech are less
obvious from here.
The ban on political movements with an undemocratic agenda has been part
of Germany's federal constitution since the building of civil
institutions after WWII. It was seen, most of all by the Americans, as a
necessary bolster against a quick return to a revengist regime. Later
legislation has merely been adjustments to that. The institutional
Anti-Nazism becoming sacred in Germany is part of how the national guilt
has been important to the self-identification of the post-war German people.
Similar bans instituted in other countries in recent years are inspired
by the German example. Not that I defend them.
(This is just a quick and dirty description, but not so dirty that the
shape is all wrong. An actual German or a semi-educated historian could
correct the wrongs and expand the rights.)
--
Trond Engen
- using it
Adam Funk
Well, I meant multi-posting in the sense of posting the same message
separately (i.e., with distinct MIDs, rather than by cross-posting) to
a lot of newsgroups; this is one of the traditional criteria for
USENET spam). I'm under the impression that when he reposts nearly
verbatim messages it's because he thinks the originals have been
"killrated".
In any case, it would be fairly easy to configure a scoring news
client to never even show any of his posts, whereas spammers take
steps to avoid selective killfiling.
--
"It is the role of librarians to keep government running in difficult
times," replied Dramoren. "Librarians are the last line of defence
against chaos." (McMullen 2001)
Adam Funk
> For the fennic-impaired, what's with the 2 naked women here?
> http://lehtoseppo.blogspot.com/2006/04/omistanpa-tmn-kiitokseksi-saamastani.html
I can only guess that one of the slogans on that page translates as
"Sign up for the master race and meet naked babes!"
--
This sig no verb.
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels skreiv:
> > On Nov 28, 12:13 pm, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> So, if you received 3000 emails per week from a known and notorious
> >> Neo-Nazi, calling you a baboon dog and describing in minute detail
> >> his fantasies of you having homosexual encounters with Barack Obama
> >> and Osama bin Laden, you would have no possibility to sue him or to
> >> have the flood stopped?
>
> > If I received 3000 emails a week from Barack Obama telling me I am
> > the greatest American who ever lived, I would have grounds for
> > complaint.
>
> > But if he wanted to send me one message to that effect, or if a known
> > and notorious Neo-Nazi sent me one message calling me a baboon dog
> > etc., that is their privilege. If I didn't care for the message, I
> > could delete it, and perhaps not open the occasional additional
> > message from him.
>
> > But the government has absolutely no authority to regulate the
> > _content_ of messages.
>
> You miss Panu's point, and he failed to make it clearer in his
> follow-ups. As I read it, his original point was exactly that Finnish
> law makes no distinction based on the motivation of the spammer, nor
> does it on the method of distribution. The only concern is the effect,
> "obstruction of telecommunication".
Then his mention of Neo-Nazis was entirely inappropriate.
> > When Germany instituted such bans on Nazi-related speech, it was
> > widely viewed as nothing less than a return to precisely the days of
> > the Nazi regime.
>
> While I agree that limitations on civil liberties are an evil, that
> comparison is a gross exaggeration -- and an unintended diminition of
> the horrors of Nazi Germany. Also, the difference between the post-war
> German and the American attitudes towards freedom of speech are less
> obvious from here.
? What limitations on speech does the US goverment impose? (The only
exception is for certain types of pornography.)
> The ban on political movements with an undemocratic agenda has been part
> of Germany's federal constitution since the building of civil
> institutions after WWII. It was seen, most of all by the Americans, as a
> necessary bolster against a quick return to a revengist regime. Later
Perhaps the beginnings of Cold War hysteria, which was pretty much
shamed out of existence in about a decade, by the exposure of Senator
Joseph McCarthy's witch hunts as exactly that.
> legislation has merely been adjustments to that. The institutional
> Anti-Nazism becoming sacred in Germany is part of how the national guilt
> has been important to the self-identification of the post-war German people.
It is not a Good Thing. It also relates to the hostile attitude toward
Gastarbeiter, who have little or no opportunity to achieve
citizenship, right?
Adam Funk
> The fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID and the fertility
> giver BRI GID became the powerful Celtic triple goddess Brigid. In a
> beautiful book by Iain Zaczek, The Cronicle of the Celts, I find
> this caption on the festival of Brigid:
>
> Imbolc was the second of the Celtic seasonal
> festivals, covering the months of February,
> March and April. The chief rituals were carried
You might also be interesting in these references.
Ronald Hutton, _The Stations of the Sun: a History of the Ritual Year
in Britain_, OUP, 1996, especially chapters 12 ("Brigid's Night") and
13 ("Candlemas").
Hutton states (p. 140) that the candle ceremony had no roots in the
pre-Christian Roman February rites (which were however related to
purification), and that there is no evidence of any Viking festival
between Yule and April, but that Bede said the pagan Anglo-Saxons
offered cakes to their gods in February (although he may have been
overinterpreting the AS term for February, "Sol-monath",
"cake-month").
For a rather different point of view, Nigel Pennick, _Practical Magic
in the Northern Tradition_, Aquarian Press, 1989, especially pages
35--36.
--
Bob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele]
Trond Engen
He missed something, too. He read you as saying that American law grants
anyone the right to fill up your mailbox as long as there's an
ideological reason for the message.
>>> When Germany instituted such bans on Nazi-related speech, it was
>>> widely viewed as nothing less than a return to precisely the days
>>> of the Nazi regime.
>>
>> While I agree that limitations on civil liberties are an evil, that
>> comparison is a gross exaggeration -- and an unintended diminition
>> of the horrors of Nazi Germany. Also, the difference between the
>> post-war German and the American attitudes towards freedom of speech
>> are less obvious from here.
>
> ? What limitations on speech does the US goverment impose? (The only
> exception is for certain types of pornography.)
At home? None that I know of. Abroad? See below.
>> The ban on political movements with an undemocratic agenda has been
>> part of Germany's federal constitution since the building of civil
>> institutions after WWII. It was seen, most of all by the Americans,
>> as a necessary bolster against a quick return to a revengist regime.
>> Later
>
> Perhaps the beginnings of Cold War hysteria, which was pretty much
> shamed out of existence in about a decade, by the exposure of Senator
> Joseph McCarthy's witch hunts as exactly that.
The fear of all Germany falling to Stalin may have been the reason for
the Americans to want a constitution banning _all_ political activity
opposing democracy, but the opposite fear of another reinvention of
aggressive nationalism was why e.g. public use of Nazi era symbols was
forbidden.
>> legislation has merely been adjustments to that. The institutional
>> Anti-Nazism becoming sacred in Germany is part of how the national
>> guilt has been important to the self-identification of the post-war
>> German people.
>
> It is not a Good Thing.
It's not a Good Thing. But in the first years of the American occupation
it was a Highly Wanted Thing. And now it's a Sacred Symbol of German
Atonement. (As, BTW, is Germany's unconditional support for Israel.)
> It also relates to the hostile attitude toward Gastarbeiter, who have
> little or no opportunity to achieve citizenship, right?
That's an exaggeration. Germany has a fairly large population of
immigrants, the vast majority of them with citizenship, as have most
countries in Western Europe. As a result of anti-immigrant sentiments it
has recently become harder to recieve it in some countries, e.g.
requiring language skills, an exam in elementary political science (that
no native would pass) and a very un-European (not un-French, though)
oath of allegiance, but I don't think Germany is one of those. I know
that foreign-born persons of German descent have easier access to the
country and perhaps automatic citizenship, stemming from the
repatriation of displaced persons after the war, but I don't know enough
to give any actual comparison between cases.
Anyway, hostility to immigrants and acceptance of the idea of atonement
for collective guilt aren't obviously correlated among Germans,
ideologically or sociologically.
But I really shouldn't take this any further. I don't speak German, and
I haven't been there since I was five years old, so I'm bound to make
childish mistakes.
--
Trond Engen
- sophomore essayist
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels skreiv:
> > ? What limitations on speech does the US goverment impose? (The only
> > exception is for certain types of pornography.)
>
> At home? None that I know of. Abroad? See below.
Ca. 1964, whichever arm of the government was responsible for
propaganda (the outfit that ran Voice of America and Radio Free Europe
and such) produced a brilliant documentary on the life of JFK, called
"Years of Lightning, Day of Drums," which required an Act of Congress
to be shown in the US. My class, or maybe my entire high school, had a
field trip to a first-run art house on 57th St. (near Carnegie Hall
and, in those days, the most prestigious art galleries) to see it.
That is, we weren't supposed to know what was being told to you-all
back during the Cold War.
Franz Gnaedinger
the say are Latin loquitur 'they say' and English
loquacious and eloquent.
Panu Petteri Höglund alias alias alias is deliberately
ruining my publishing thread. He is spreading all
over sci.lang, spamming this scientific forum with
all his meta-babble. Having attended three (one two
three) universities, he has nothing to say, he told me
expressis verbis that chatting is the purpose of
sci.lang. He is the big spammer, obstructing
scientific work. I will go on with my subthread on
the psychopathology of stalking, dedicated to him.
I beg the others to keep out of my publishing thread
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> You might also be interesting in these references.
>
> Ronald Hutton, _The Stations of the Sun: a History of the Ritual Year
> in Britain_, OUP, 1996, especially chapters 12 ("Brigid's Night") and
> 13 ("Candlemas").
>
> Hutton states (p. 140) that the candle ceremony had no roots in the
> pre-Christian Roman February rites (which were however related to
> purification), and that there is no evidence of any Viking festival
> between Yule and April, but that Bede said the pagan Anglo-Saxons
> offered cakes to their gods in February (although he may have been
> overinterpreting the AS term for February, "Sol-monath",
> "cake-month").
>
> For a rather different point of view, Nigel Pennick, _Practical Magic
> in the Northern Tradition_, Aquarian Press, 1989, especially pages
> 35--36.
Thank you for the references, I will try to find those
books in my library. February is important as time
of lambing and lactation of the ewes, therefore the
triple goddess Brigid was invoked by then, and her
main festival celebrated in this time. I have various
sources for the things I say in here, an important
one being a menhir calendar at Yverdon-Clendy
in western Switzerland, to which I dediated the
menhir chapters on my web-page. The first stones
date to about 6 500 BC (archaeological dating)
or perhaps 6 300 BC (my dating). February is
marked by a couple: a pregnant woman and
her man protecting the woman (two menhirs),
followed by a round stone I interpret as widwife,
and emanation of the triple goddess, presumably
BIR GID. These stone are followed by a corner
stone representing spring equinox, on the human
level a young mother, next to her the young father,
and in between them a baby menhir, the newborn.
I wrote extensively on the menhirs from Yverdon-
Clendy, with links to many photographs, in the
Usenet, and can't repeat it all here. But please
believe me that my views are based on ample
work and research. You are one of the few who
contribute something of scientific value, most
others hang around in my publishing thread to
ruin it and obstruct my work with abominable
chatting, above all Psychopanu.
Franz Gnaedinger
Love is based on symmetry, lovers are equal
and thus confirm each other, and they are different,
in such a way that they complement each other.
This form of symmetry is also present in friendship,
to various degrees. Now a case of stalking is in
principle a love affair or at least a friendship gone
wrong. One of the two doesn't want anymore, or
doesn't want at all, while the other can't let go,
begins harassing, then stalking and menacing
the former, trying to establish that basic equality,
trying to get the enlivening complementary from
the other person. A stalker finds a quality in his
victim he wants to own by taking possession of
his victim, and if he can't establish equality on
the level of a love relationship or a friendship,
then he must seek equality on a low level,
by tearing the other down.
Panu Petteri Höglund phoglund alias craoibhin66
alias he himself as his own good friend and pupil
Sean Connor soconn1 alias he himself as his own
brother in arms and stalking aide John Hobart Kyle
jhobartkyle johnk tries to tear me down in every way
he can, attacking me all the time - which was the
reason why I quickly found him out behind his
craoibhin66 alias - and saying my work is nothing
in a ripping way - which is why I also found him out
behing his johnk alias. He deliberately ruins my
publishing thread, and uses his multiple self to
top-rate own messages while killrating mine.
Meanwhile I got way over 5,000 ratings, most of
them killratings. He bragged being my one and only
killrater. Using his multiple web-personality he could
actually account for most of the killratings. On the
other hand he hopes for my secret admiration,
always trying to get in the focus of my attention,
always trying to entangle me into a discussion.
He offended me so many times that I don't reply
to him anymore, and will never do it again. A voice
in his head is tellimg him to always stay in my
vicinity, and this voice, contrary to what one may
be expecting now, is the voice of reason, for I am
the one who can give him sound advice, and my
advice I gave him several times, telling him he got
no place in my life, he should find a place in his
own life, a reasonable task.
(end of part 2, to be continued)
-