EN > FR Pathway

[Lanarcam]

Un terme pour lequel je n'ai jamais trouvé de traduction
satisfaisante.

"Apart from these frequent and early involvement
of the PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung
cancer specifically small cell lung cancer"

Réseau, voie,... ?

[Pierre Jelenc]

In article <4fbcf9ec$0$21932$426a...@news.free.fr>,
Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>Un terme pour lequel je n'ai jamais trouv?de traduction

>satisfaisante.
>
>"Apart from these frequent and early involvement
>of the PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung
>cancer specifically small cell lung cancer"
>
>Réseau, voie,... ?

"Voie", apparently: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voie_métabolique
("via" in Italian, "ruta" or "vía" in Spanish, "via" in Portuguese.)

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[Albert ARIBAUD]

"Chemin" ?

Cela dit, je n'arrive pas à comprendre la structure grammaticale de
l'extrait donné.

Amicalement,
--
Albert.

[Lanarcam]

[Lanarcam]

Le 23/05/2012 19:39, Albert ARIBAUD a écrit :

I think there is a missing "a".

"Apart from these frequent and early involvement

of the PI3-kinase, a pathway was observed in lung

cancer specifically small cell lung cancer"

The full text is here:

"Class I PI 3-kinases are composed of a catalytic subunit known
as p110. Many literature studies has proven that PI3 Kinases to
be the most significant contributor to activation of cancer in
human such as ovarian cancer (Bellacosa et al., 1995; Yuan et
al., 2000; Shayesteh et al., 1999), breast cancers (Nakatani et
al., 1999), myeloid leukaemia (Vanhaesebroeck et al., 1999),
glioblastoma, prostatic, endometrial and endometroid ovarian
cancer [Ali et al., 1999].Apart from these frequent and early

involvement of the PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung cancer

specifically small cell lung cancer (SCLC)(Pierre et al., 2004;
Moore et al., 1998)."

http://www.omicsonline.org/ArchiveJPB/2009/June/03/JPB2.274.php

[Albert ARIBAUD]

Le 23/05/2012 19:48, Lanarcam a écrit :
> Le 23/05/2012 19:39, Albert ARIBAUD a écrit :
>> Le 23/05/2012 16:53, Lanarcam a écrit :
>>> Un terme pour lequel je n'ai jamais trouvé de traduction
>>> satisfaisante.
>>>
>>> "Apart from these frequent and early involvement
>>> of the PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung
>>> cancer specifically small cell lung cancer"
>>>
>>> Réseau, voie,... ?
>>
>> "Chemin" ?
>>
>> Cela dit, je n'arrive pas à comprendre la structure grammaticale de
>> l'extrait donné.
>>
> I think there is a missing "a".
>
> "Apart from these frequent and early involvement
> of the PI3-kinase, a pathway was observed in lung
> cancer specifically small cell lung cancer"

... quite possibly.

> The full text is here:
>
> "Class I PI 3-kinases are composed of a catalytic subunit known
> as p110. Many literature studies has proven that PI3 Kinases to
> be the most significant contributor to activation of cancer in
> human such as ovarian cancer (Bellacosa et al., 1995; Yuan et
> al., 2000; Shayesteh et al., 1999), breast cancers (Nakatani et
> al., 1999), myeloid leukaemia (Vanhaesebroeck et al., 1999),
> glioblastoma, prostatic, endometrial and endometroid ovarian
> cancer [Ali et al., 1999].Apart from these frequent and early
> involvement of the PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung cancer
> specifically small cell lung cancer (SCLC)(Pierre et al., 2004;
> Moore et al., 1998)."
>
> http://www.omicsonline.org/ArchiveJPB/2009/June/03/JPB2.274.php

Earlier in the abstract, there is mention of a "PTEN/PI3K/AKT pathway"
(where PI3K probably denotes PI3-kinase). I read this "pathway" as a
progression from molecule to molecule through a sequence of chemical
reactions -- which "chemin" does not match I'm afraid, so I withdraw my
earlier proposal. "Enchaînement", maybe? But I suspect you'll need a
chemistry specialist for this one.

Amicalement,
--
Albert.

[Lanarcam]

It is a succession of chemical reactions involving various
molecules, inputs and products, at each step. It takes place
for instance inside cells.

"In biochemistry, metabolic pathways are series of chemical
reactions occurring within a cell. In each pathway, a principal
chemical is modified by a series of chemical reactions. Enzymes
catalyze these reactions, and often require dietary minerals,
vitamins, and other cofactors in order to function properly.
Because of the many chemicals (a.k.a. "metabolites") that may
be involved, metabolic pathways can be quite elaborate. In
addition, numerous distinct pathways co-exist within a cell.
This collection of pathways is called the metabolic network.
Pathways are important to the maintenance of homeostasis within
an organism. Catabolic (break-down) and Anabolic (synthesis)
pathways often work interdependently to create new biomolecules
as the final end-products."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_pathway


I think Athel Cornish Bowden could give expert advice on that.

[Albert ARIBAUD]

Then maybe the right translation is "Voie" [métabolique]... if I trust
the "french" link under "languages" on the left of the Wikipedia page. :)

> I think Athel Cornish Bowden could give expert advice on that.

Amicalement,
--
Albert.

[Loekie Ratelkous]

Op 23-5-2012 19:48, Lanarcam schreef:

Dommage que mon Français ne permet pas q'une argumentation en Anglais..

"these" (plural) cannot refer to the involvement, because that's
singular. Instead, it refers to the many contributions mentioned in the
cited literature before this sentence.
The correct sentence could do with a few commas and an article, and
should read as follows:

".... Apart from these, a frequent and early involvement of the
PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung cancer, specifically small cell

lung cancer (SCLC)(Pierre et al., 2004; Moore et al., 1998)."

--

groetsels

Loek

[Lanarcam]

It seems ok.

[Lanarcam]

I found "voie" in the "Dictionnaire de l'Académie de Médecine"

classique (voie) l.f.

classical (pathway)

En immunologie, voie par laquelle les complexes antigène-anticorps
contenant des IgM, des IgG1 ou des IgG3 activent le complément par
la voie de C1.

http://dictionnaire.academie-medecine.fr/?q=pathway

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I've only just seen this thread. Some comments below.

On 2012-05-23 18:21:12 +0000, Lanarcam said:

> Le 23/05/2012 20:14, Albert ARIBAUD a écrit :
>> Le 23/05/2012 19:48, Lanarcam a écrit :
>>> Le 23/05/2012 19:39, Albert ARIBAUD a écrit :
>>>> Le 23/05/2012 16:53, Lanarcam a écrit :
>>>>> Un terme pour lequel je n'ai jamais trouvé de traduction
>>>>> satisfaisante.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Apart from these frequent and early involvement
>>>>> of the PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung
>>>>> cancer specifically small cell lung cancer"
>>>>>
>>>>> Réseau, voie,... ?
>>>>
>>>> "Chemin" ?
>>>>
>>>> Cela dit, je n'arrive pas à comprendre la structure grammaticale de
>>>> l'extrait donné.
>>>>
>>> I think there is a missing "a".
>>>
>>> "Apart from these frequent and early involvement
>>> of the PI3-kinase, a pathway was observed in lung
>>> cancer specifically small cell lung cancer"
>>
>> ... quite possibly.

Almost certainly, yes.

>>
>>> The full text is here:
>>>
>>> "Class I PI 3-kinases are composed of a catalytic subunit known
>>> as p110. Many literature studies has proven that PI3 Kinases to
>>> be the most significant contributor to activation of cancer in
>>> human such as ovarian cancer (Bellacosa et al., 1995; Yuan et
>>> al., 2000; Shayesteh et al., 1999), breast cancers (Nakatani et
>>> al., 1999), myeloid leukaemia (Vanhaesebroeck et al., 1999),
>>> glioblastoma, prostatic, endometrial and endometroid ovarian
>>> cancer [Ali et al., 1999].Apart from these frequent and early
>>> involvement of the PI3-kinase pathway was observed in lung cancer
>>> specifically small cell lung cancer (SCLC)(Pierre et al., 2004;
>>> Moore et al., 1998)."
>>>
>>> http://www.omicsonline.org/ArchiveJPB/2009/June/03/JPB2.274.php

Note that the authors are (almost certainly) not native English
speakers (though I suppose Daisy looks more English than Indian), and
the English has many faults.

>>
>> Earlier in the abstract, there is mention of a "PTEN/PI3K/AKT pathway"
>> (where PI3K probably denotes PI3-kinase). I read this "pathway" as a
>> progression from molecule to molecule through a sequence of chemical
>> reactions

That's right.

>> -- which "chemin" does not match I'm afraid, so I withdraw my
>> earlier proposal. "Enchaînement", maybe? But I suspect you'll need a
>> chemistry specialist for this one.
>>
>
> It is a succession of chemical reactions involving various
> molecules, inputs and products, at each step. It takes place
> for instance inside cells.
>
> "In biochemistry, metabolic pathways are series of chemical
> reactions occurring within a cell. In each pathway, a principal
> chemical is modified by a series of chemical reactions. Enzymes
> catalyze these reactions, and often require dietary minerals,
> vitamins, and other cofactors in order to function properly.
> Because of the many chemicals (a.k.a. "metabolites") that may
> be involved, metabolic pathways can be quite elaborate. In
> addition, numerous distinct pathways co-exist within a cell.
> This collection of pathways is called the metabolic network.
> Pathways are important to the maintenance of homeostasis within
> an organism. Catabolic (break-down) and Anabolic (synthesis)
> pathways often work interdependently to create new biomolecules
> as the final end-products."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_pathway
>
>
> I think Athel Cornish Bowden could give expert advice on that.

I hope so! If I don't understand this sort of text I don't understand
anything much.

As for the original query, "voie métabolique" is virtually universal as
the equivalent of "metabolic pathway". Anything else would be strange.


--
athel

[Lanarcam]

I seem to recall that there was another expression in French,
but I can't pin it down.

[Lanarcam]

I think it is "circuit" as in: "Certains circuits moléculaires
sont capables de court-circuiter la voie ARF-p53 et se comportent
donc comme des oncogènes."

http://www.jle.com/en/revues/agro_biotech/ocl/e-docs/00/02/24/34/article.phtml


They use however "voie", so perhaps there is no fixed expression.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Without having read the whole article, I think they really are talking
about closed circuits there, and I don't think there is an actual
metabolic cycle, but rather a regulation loop. In such a context French
"circuit" is OK, but for a real metabolic cycle (like the Krebs cycle,
in which oxaloacetate at the beginning is regenerated as oxaloacetate
at the end) the usual term is "cycle", translated into French as
"cycle", as in "cycle de Krebs". "Circuit" would normally only be used
for gene-regulation networks.
--
athel

[Evertjan.]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote on 24 mei 2012 in sci.lang.translation:

> the usual term is "cycle", translated into French as
> "cycle", as in "cycle de Krebs".

Tiens, le vélo de Szent-Györgyi et Krebs,

ou des acides tricarboxyliques,

ou encore de l'acide citrique.

<http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_de_Krebs>

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-05-24 07:25:13 +0200, "Evertjan." <exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote on 24 mei 2012 in sci.lang.translation:
>
>> the usual term is "cycle", translated into French as
>> "cycle", as in "cycle de Krebs".
>
> Tiens, le vélo de Szent-Györgyi et Krebs,
>
> ou des acides tricarboxyliques,
>
> ou encore de l'acide citrique.
>
> <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_de_Krebs>

I'll continue in English, as it would take me too long to compose an
adequate comment in the language of Moličre.

None of these alternative names for the cycle affect the main point,
which is that the usual -- pretty much the only -- French translation
of "cycle" in a metabolic context is "cycle".

I was surprised by the claim in the article you cite that the Krebs
cycle is "plus rarement (mais plus justement) appelé cycle de
Szent-Györgyi et Krebs," which is, I submit, complete nonsense, unless
"plus rarement" means "virtually never". I know of no biochemistry
textbook that calls it that, and the claim that should be called that
is based on a misunderstanding of what Krebs's achievement was. Yes,
Szent-Györgyi identified some of the reactions, and many of the details
were known before Krebs published his paper. His achievement was not in
identifying the reactions but in recognizing that they operated as a
cycle. (The idea is now so commonplace that it does not look like much
of an achievement, but that's to look at it with the eyes of 2012.)

Although I was guilty of using the term "Krebs cycle" earlier, that was
because I thought it would be better known to non-biochemists under
that name. In reality I almost never call it that (because I prefer to
call things by names that tell you what they are over names that tell
you who discovered them), preferring "tricarboxylate cycle" or
sometimes "citrate cycle". The names you refer to, "tricarboxylic acid
cycle" and "citric acid cycle", are very widespread, but they are
chemically wrong, because no significant amounts of tricarboxylic acids
are involved. The actual metabolites are anions derived from them. Some
-- many, probably -- would say that is pedantic, but if you pay no
attention to the ionic states of the species involved in metabolic
reactions you can't understand the chemistry.

--
athel

[Evertjan.]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote on 24 mei 2012 in sci.lang.translation:

> On 2012-05-24 07:25:13 +0200, "Evertjan."
> <exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> said:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote on 24 mei 2012 in sci.lang.translation:
>>
>>> the usual term is "cycle", translated into French as
>>> "cycle", as in "cycle de Krebs".
>>
>> Tiens, le vélo de Szent-Györgyi et Krebs,
>>
>> ou des acides tricarboxyliques,
>>
>> ou encore de l'acide citrique.
>>
>> <http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_de_Krebs>
>
> I'll continue in English, as it would take me too long to compose an
> adequate comment in the language of Moličre.
>
> None of these alternative names for the cycle affect the main point,
> which is that the usual -- pretty much the only -- French translation
> of "cycle" in a metabolic context is "cycle".

I was referring to "le vélo de Szent-Györgyi"

After all, traffic signs in France quote "attention cyclistes" and
"stationnement semimensuel" suggesting to me that the periodic state of
those Tour de France girls completes about every fortnight.

>
> I was surprised by the claim in the article you cite that the Krebs
> cycle is "plus rarement (mais plus justement) appelé cycle de
> Szent-Györgyi et Krebs," which is, I submit, complete nonsense, unless
> "plus rarement" means "virtually never".

Read Alice au Wondrelande,
"plus rarement" just means "rarerer","seldomer".
Merveilleusement pas?

> I know of no biochemistry
> textbook that calls it that, and the claim that should be called that
> is based on a misunderstanding of what Krebs's achievement was. Yes,
> Szent-Györgyi identified some of the reactions, and many of the
> details were known before Krebs published his paper. His achievement
> was not in identifying the reactions but in recognizing that they
> operated as a cycle. (The idea is now so commonplace that it does not
> look like much of an achievement, but that's to look at it with the
> eyes of 2012.)

The url quoted was wikipedia.fr, so if you do not like the conclusion,
you could and should rewrite it, couldn't and shouldn't you?

> Although I was guilty of using the term "Krebs cycle" earlier, that
> was because I thought it would be better known to non-biochemists
> under that name. In reality I almost never call it that (because I
> prefer to call things by names that tell you what they are over names
> that tell you who discovered them), preferring "tricarboxylate cycle"
> or sometimes "citrate cycle". The names you refer to, "tricarboxylic
> acid cycle" and "citric acid cycle", are very widespread, but they are
> chemically wrong, because no significant amounts of tricarboxylic
> acids are involved. The actual metabolites are anions derived from
> them. Some -- many, probably

> -- would say that is pedantic, but if you
> pay no attention to the ionic states of the species involved in
> metabolic reactions you can't understand the chemistry.

Ah, la chimie ionique des solutions,

I remember memorable long eavenings on the Ionic Isles,
dreamily looking out westward over the Aitiops Thalassa,
when they still were part of Euroceptic Greece before 2013,
and not seperate Ionic states.

La chimie est une science de la nature et une solution est un mélange
homogčne de deux ou plusieurs substances.

Me not understanding the inherent chemistry, parbleu!