unter: among/beneath?
UC
'under'. In the context here, it's clearly 'among' (at least to me).
Also, the gläznzen seems to belong to Sternen, not Rattenschwanz, as
gläznzen seems to be the plural form. Am I wrong? (Or are the errors
glittering among the glittering stars?) (From Nietzsche)
Indem ich dieses sage, sehe ich über mir den ungeheuren Rattenschwanz
von Irrthümern unter den Sternen glänzen, der bisher als die höchste
Inspiration der Menschheit galt: 'alles Glück folgt aus der Tugend,
alle Tugend aus dem freien Willen!'
My translation:
While I say this, I see above me, among the glittering stars, the
tremendous rat’s-tail of errors which hitherto has represented the
greatest inspiration of man: "All happiness is the result of virtue,
all virtue is the result of free will!”
This is the existing translation of Walter Kaufmann:
As I say this I see above me, glittering under the stars, the
tremendous rat’s tail of errors that has hitherto counted as the
highest inspiration of humanity: “All happiness is the consequence of
virtue, all virtue is a consequence of free will!”
Evertjan.
> Why do I keep seeing even expert translators being fooled by unter as
> 'under'. In the context here, it's clearly 'among' (at least to me).
> Also, the gl�znzen seems to belong to Sternen, not Rattenschwanz, as
> gl�znzen seems to be the plural form. Am I wrong? (Or are the errors
> glittering among the glittering stars?) (From Nietzsche)
>
> Indem ich dieses sage, sehe ich �ber mir den ungeheuren Rattenschwanz
> von Irrth�mern unter den Sternen gl�nzen, der bisher als die h�chste
> Inspiration der Menschheit galt: 'alles Gl�ck folgt aus der Tugend,
> alle Tugend aus dem freien Willen!'
"ungeheueren" = monstrous
> My translation:
>
> While I say this, I see above me, among the glittering stars, the
> tremendous rat�s-tail of errors which hitherto has represented the
> greatest inspiration of man: "All happiness is the result of virtue,
> all virtue is the result of free will!�
It is the monstrous rat-tail of errors
that glares amid the [other] stars.
I would exchange "rat-tail of errors"
with more familiar "trail of errors".
> This is the existing translation of Walter Kaufmann:
>
> As I say this I see above me, glittering under the stars, the
> tremendous rat�s tail of errors that has hitherto counted as the
> highest inspiration of humanity: �All happiness is the consequence of
> virtue, all virtue is a consequence of free will!�
>
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Marco Pagliero
> Also, the glä[z]nzen seems to belong to Sternen, not Rattenschwanz, as
> glä[z]nzen seems to be the plural form. Am I wrong? (Or are the errors
> glittering among the glittering stars?) (From Nietzsche)
glänzen is an infinitive: "ich sehe den Rattenschwanz glänzen". A
plural would be "glänzenden".
"sehe ich über mir den ungeheuren Rattenschwanz von Irrthümern unter
den Sternen glänzen"
Yes, it could be that the errors glitter _under the stars_ (an
expression for "in this world"), but you are right, "above me" and
"glittering" could well mean that he sees the errors as stars,
glittering high in the sky _among_ the other glittering stars.
UC
Well it really complicates things for the reader if we do anything
else, nicht wahr?
I get the image of a rat's tail as a constellation...otherwise why
mention the stars at all?
clicl...@freenet.de
UC schrieb:
>
> Why do I keep seeing even expert translators being fooled by unter as
> 'under'. In the context here, it's clearly 'among' (at least to me).
> gl�znzen seems to be the plural form. Am I wrong? (Or are the errors
> glittering among the glittering stars?) (From Nietzsche)
Yes, you are wrong, see below.
>
> Indem ich dieses sage, sehe ich �ber mir den ungeheuren Rattenschwanz
> von Irrth�mern unter den Sternen gl�nzen, der bisher als die h�chste
> Inspiration der Menschheit galt: 'alles Gl�ck folgt aus der Tugend,
> alle Tugend aus dem freien Willen!'
>
> My translation:
>
> While I say this, I see above me, among the glittering stars, the
> tremendous rat�s-tail of errors which hitherto has represented the
> greatest inspiration of man: "All happiness is the result of virtue,
> all virtue is the result of free will!�
Literally: "While I say this, I see glittering among the stars above me
the tremendous rat�s-tail of errors which ..."
>
> This is the existing translation of Walter Kaufmann:
>
> As I say this I see above me, glittering under the stars, the
> tremendous rat�s tail of errors that has hitherto counted as the
> highest inspiration of humanity: �All happiness is the consequence of
> virtue, all virtue is a consequence of free will!�
Awful. The Germanic word (and therefore modern German "unter") combines
what in Lat. is distinguished as "inter" and "infra", but in modern
English "under" only the "infra" meaning remains.
Martin.
UC
Yes, the Kaufmann is awful, no doubt.
I will concede that ***grammatically*** the "glänzen" goes with
Rattenschwanz, but since we associate "glittering" with stars, there
is no sin here in doing it the way I did. They ***both*** glitter,
they are together in the firmament above me; so since we can put
"glittering" in only once in the sentence, it does no harm to put it
with "stars". The main point, the most important one, is that the
Rattenschwanz von Irrthümern is ***among*** the stars, not "under"
them.
clicl...@freenet.de
UC schrieb:
>
> On Jan 13, 5:14 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > UC schrieb:
> >
> > > Why do I keep seeing even expert translators being fooled by unter as
> > > 'under'. In the context here, it's clearly 'among' (at least to me).
> > > Also, the gl znzen seems to belong to Sternen, not Rattenschwanz, as
> > > gl znzen seems to be the plural form. Am I wrong? (Or are the errors
> > > glittering among the glittering stars?) (From Nietzsche)
> >
> > Yes, you are wrong, see below.
> >
> > > Indem ich dieses sage, sehe ich ber mir den ungeheuren Rattenschwanz
> > > von Irrth mern unter den Sternen gl nzen, der bisher als die h chste
> > > Inspiration der Menschheit galt: 'alles Gl ck folgt aus der Tugend,
> > > alle Tugend aus dem freien Willen!'
> >
> > > My translation:
> >
> > > While I say this, I see above me, among the glittering stars, the
> > > tremendous rat s-tail of errors which hitherto has represented the
> > > greatest inspiration of man: "All happiness is the result of virtue,
> > > all virtue is the result of free will!
> >
> > Literally: "While I say this, I see glittering among the stars above
> > me the tremendous rat s-tail of errors which ..."
>
> Rattenschwanz, but since we associate "glittering" with stars, there
> is no sin here in doing it the way I did. They ***both*** glitter,
> they are together in the firmament above me; so since we can put
> "glittering" in only once in the sentence, it does no harm to put it
> with "stars".
To me, "gl�nzen" belongs to "sehe": Ich sehe es gl�nzen = I see it
glitter(ing). What glitters for Nietzsche is a tremendous rat's tail. He
sees it glittering above him. It is glittering among the stars. He
doesn't really say that the stars glitter, but we know they do too.
In the literal translation "While I say this, I see glittering among the
stars above me the tremendous rat's-tail of errors" the verb "glitter"
also appears only once. I think it is better to have the tail glitter,
as tail often don't, while stars are known to.
Martin.
UC
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 13, 5:14 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> > > > Why do I keep seeing even expert translators being fooled by unter as
> > > > 'under'. In the context here, it's clearly 'among' (at least to me).
> > > > Also, the gl znzen seems to belong to Sternen, not Rattenschwanz, as
> > > > gl znzen seems to be the plural form. Am I wrong? (Or are the errors
> > > > glittering among the glittering stars?) (From Nietzsche)
>
> > > Yes, you are wrong, see below.
>
> > > > Indem ich dieses sage, sehe ich ber mir den ungeheuren Rattenschwanz
> > > > von Irrth mern unter den Sternen gl nzen, der bisher als die h chste
> > > > Inspiration der Menschheit galt: 'alles Gl ck folgt aus der Tugend,
> > > > alle Tugend aus dem freien Willen!'
>
> > > > My translation:
>
> > > > While I say this, I see above me, among the glittering stars, the
> > > > tremendous rat s-tail of errors which hitherto has represented the
> > > > greatest inspiration of man: "All happiness is the result of virtue,
> > > > all virtue is the result of free will!
>
> > > Literally: "While I say this, I see glittering among the stars above
> > > me the tremendous rat s-tail of errors which ..."
>
> > Rattenschwanz, but since we associate "glittering" with stars, there
> > is no sin here in doing it the way I did. They ***both*** glitter,
> > they are together in the firmament above me; so since we can put
> > "glittering" in only once in the sentence, it does no harm to put it
> > with "stars".
>
> glitter(ing). What glitters for Nietzsche is a tremendous rat's tail. He
> sees it glittering above him. It is glittering among the stars. He
> doesn't really say that the stars glitter, but we know they do too.
>
> In the literal translation "While I say this, I see glittering among the
> stars above me the tremendous rat's-tail of errors" the verb "glitter"
> also appears only once. I think it is better to have the tail glitter,
> as tail often don't, while stars are known to.
>
> Martin.
OK, I see your point, thanks.
naive user
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 13, 5:14 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> > > > Why do I keep seeing even expert translators being fooled by unter as
> > > > 'under'. In the context here, it's clearly 'among' (at least to me).
> > > > Also, the gl znzen seems to belong to Sternen, not Rattenschwanz, as
> > > > gl znzen seems to be the plural form. Am I wrong? (Or are the errors
> > > > glittering among the glittering stars?) (From Nietzsche)
>
> > > Yes, you are wrong, see below.
>
> > > > Indem ich dieses sage, sehe ich ber mir den ungeheuren Rattenschwanz
> > > > von Irrth mern unter den Sternen gl nzen, der bisher als die h chste
> > > > Inspiration der Menschheit galt: 'alles Gl ck folgt aus der Tugend,
> > > > alle Tugend aus dem freien Willen!'
>
> > > > My translation:
>
> > > > While I say this, I see above me, among the glittering stars, the
> > > > tremendous rat s-tail of errors which hitherto has represented the
> > > > greatest inspiration of man: "All happiness is the result of virtue,
> > > > all virtue is the result of free will!
>
> > > Literally: "While I say this, I see glittering among the stars above
> > > me the tremendous rat s-tail of errors which ..."
>
> > Rattenschwanz, but since we associate "glittering" with stars, there
> > is no sin here in doing it the way I did. They ***both*** glitter,
> > they are together in the firmament above me; so since we can put
> > "glittering" in only once in the sentence, it does no harm to put it
> > with "stars".
>
> glitter(ing). What glitters for Nietzsche is a tremendous rat's tail. He
> sees it glittering above him. It is glittering among the stars. He
> doesn't really say that the stars glitter, but we know they do too.
>
> In the literal translation "While I say this, I see glittering among the
> stars above me the tremendous rat's-tail of errors" the verb "glitter"
> also appears only once. I think it is better to have the tail glitter,
> as tail often don't, while stars are known to.
>
> Martin.
This is probably too late, but the point is that the long tapering
tail/trail of error outshines the other stars of the sky.
"I see above my head the monstrous rat's-tail of errors shining among
the stars. It used to be treated as the highest Inspiration for
humanity: "All happiness is caused by virtue, and all virtue is caused
by free will."
Wiktionary gives three meanings for Rattenschwanz:
[1] Schwanz einer Ratte
[2] ohne Plural, übertragen: eine große Menge (meist unangenehme)
[3] dünner, häufig geflochtener Haarzopf
Nietzsche is using it in a combination of the second and third sense---
a never-ending series or errors, appearing like a comet's tail (called
"hair" in Latin and Greek) that outshines the very stars of the sky.