French-English
PG
In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
"Les vieux portent un beret" or "les gendarmes portent un uniforme bleu".
What is the rule in English for this, ie can the object be translated in the
singular, or does it have to be plural, or are both acceptable?
ie is "Policemen wear a blue uniform" correct, or does it have to be
"policemen wear blue uniforms", or can both be said.
Thanks!
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
>
> In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
>
> "Les vieux portent un beret"
correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a matter of
fact (at least in the south of France): I can't remember the last time
I saw someone in a beret.
> or "les gendarmes portent un uniforme bleu".
>
> What is the rule in English for this, ie can the object be translated in the
> singular, or does it have to be plural, or are both acceptable?
>
> ie is "Policemen wear a blue uniform" correct, or does it have to be
> "policemen wear blue uniforms", or can both be said.
For the berets, I think they have to be plural. For the uniform I'd be
less dogmatic. I'd use the plural myself, and I think most native
speakers would, but I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I saw
it in the singular.
--
athel
Albert ARIBAUD
Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<athe...@yahoo.co.uk> a ï¿œcrit :
> On 2009-11-02 11:53:27 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> said:
>
> > Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
> >
> > In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
> >
> > "Les vieux portent un beret"
>
> correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a matter
> of fact (at least in the south of France): I can't remember the last
> time I saw someone in a beret.
I can show some, but that's certainly not generalized, nor is it limited
to old people. Mainly you'll find bï¿œrets in in the south of France,
mostly worn by elders but on some occasions by yougers too (think of the
pays basque, and especially the "fï¿œtes de Bayonne" (or Mont-de-Marsan
or Dax).
> > or "les gendarmes portent un uniforme bleu".
> >
> > What is the rule in English for this, ie can the object be
> > translated in the singular, or does it have to be plural, or are
> > both acceptable?
> >
> > ie is "Policemen wear a blue uniform" correct, or does it have to be
> > "policemen wear blue uniforms", or can both be said.
>
> For the berets, I think they have to be plural. For the uniform I'd
> be less dogmatic. I'd use the plural myself, and I think most native
> speakers would, but I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I saw
> it in the singular.
I think that would depend on the precise meaning to convey. For
instance:
"Les gendarmes portent des uniformes bleus" would mean that every
'gendarme' (sorry, that's different from 'policeman') has a uniform, not
necessarily identical to every other one except for the blue hue;
"Les gendarmes portent un uniforme bleu" means all uniforms worn by
'gendarmes' have the same hue (and probably look) -- that sentence
implies that there is some level of standard.
In the same vein, I *believe* that 'policement wear uniforms' and
'policemen wear a uniform' bear the same difference in detailed
meaning.
Amicalement,
--
Albert.
LEE Sau Dan
Albert> "Les gendarmes portent des uniformes bleus" would mean that
Albert> every 'gendarme' (sorry, that's different from 'policeman')
Aren't they soldiers?
Albert> has a uniform, not necessarily identical to every other one
Albert> except for the blue hue;
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Bonjour,
>
> Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> a �crit :
>
>> On 2009-11-02 11:53:27 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> said:
>>
>>> Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
>>>
>>> In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
>>>
>>> "Les vieux portent un beret"
>>
>> correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a matter
>> of fact (at least in the south of France): I can't remember the last
>> time I saw someone in a beret.
>
> I can show some, but that's certainly not generalized, nor is it limited
> to old people. Mainly you'll find b�rets in in the south of France,
> mostly worn by elders but on some occasions by yougers too (think of the
> pays basque, and especially the "f�tes de Bayonne" (or Mont-de-Marsan
> or Dax).
>
>>> or "les gendarmes portent un uniforme bleu".
>>>
>>> What is the rule in English for this, ie can the object be
>>> translated in the singular, or does it have to be plural, or are
>>> both acceptable?
>>>
>>> ie is "Policemen wear a blue uniform" correct, or does it have to be
>>> "policemen wear blue uniforms", or can both be said.
>>
>> For the berets, I think they have to be plural. For the uniform I'd
>> be less dogmatic. I'd use the plural myself, and I think most native
>> speakers would, but I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I saw
>> it in the singular.
>
> I think that would depend on the precise meaning to convey. For
> instance:
>
> "Les gendarmes portent des uniformes bleus" would mean that every
> 'gendarme' (sorry, that's different from 'policeman') has a uniform, not
> necessarily identical to every other one except for the blue hue;
>
> "Les gendarmes portent un uniforme bleu" means all uniforms worn by
> 'gendarmes' have the same hue (and probably look) -- that sentence
> implies that there is some level of standard.
>
> In the same vein, I *believe* that 'policement wear uniforms' and
> 'policemen wear a uniform' bear the same difference in detailed
> meaning.
>
> Amicalement,
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Bonjour,
>
> Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> a �crit :
>
>> On 2009-11-02 11:53:27 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> said:
>>
>>> Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
>>>
>>> In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
>>>
>>> "Les vieux portent un beret"
>>
>> correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a matter
>> of fact (at least in the south of France): I can't remember the last
>> time I saw someone in a beret.
>
> I can show some, but that's certainly not generalized, nor is it limited
> to old people. Mainly you'll find b�rets in in the south of France,
> mostly worn by elders but on some occasions by yougers too (think of the
> pays basque, and especially the "f�tes de Bayonne" (or Mont-de-Marsan
> or Dax).
I was thinking of a lot further east than that -- Marseilles to be
precise. If the stereotypes are to be believed I'd certainly expct to
see some berets in the Basque country.
[ ... ]
>> For the berets, I think they have to be plural. For the uniform I'd
>> be less dogmatic. I'd use the plural myself, and I think most native
>> speakers would, but I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I saw
>> it in the singular.
>
> I think that would depend on the precise meaning to convey. For
> instance: ...
Probably it was obvious, but in case not I should say that my comments
on usage were entirely about usage in English.
--
athel
PG
news: 7l8c6hF...@mid.individual.net...
> On 2009-11-02 13:42:17 +0100, Albert ARIBAUD <albert....@free.fr>
> said:
>
>> Bonjour,
>>
>> Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>
>>> On 2009-11-02 11:53:27 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> said:
>>>
>>>> Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
>>>>
>>>> In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
>>>>
>>>> "Les vieux portent un beret"
>>>
>>> correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a matter
>>> of fact (at least in the south of France): I can't remember the last
>>> time I saw someone in a beret.
>>
>> I can show some, but that's certainly not generalized, nor is it limited
>> mostly worn by elders but on some occasions by yougers too (think of the
>> or Dax).
>
> I was thinking of a lot further east than that -- Marseilles to be
> precise. If the stereotypes are to be believed I'd certainly expct to see
> some berets in the Basque country.
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
>>> For the berets, I think they have to be plural. For the uniform I'd
>>> be less dogmatic. I'd use the plural myself, and I think most native
>>> speakers would, but I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I saw it
>>> in the singular.
>>
>> I think that would depend on the precise meaning to convey. For
>> instance: ...
>
> Probably it was obvious, but in case not I should say that my comments on
> usage were entirely about usage in English.
Indeed, it was the correct English usage that concerned me. I felt that the
French were more inclined to use the singular version, and therefore may be
tempted in translation (into English) to do likewise. I may be mistaken, but
having just read my son's English homework I had doubts about the following
written by his (French national) teacher:
"Spriggans live in Cornwall, so they are Cornish. They are tall and slim
with a long beard and a crooked nose. They wear a long green coat, a big
hat, and they carry a bag. They have got a long stick with a skull on it.
They look mean".
It just doesn't sound right to me, I would have preferred plurals. The
equivalent in French sounds ok, but I could be mistaken.
PG
4aef1634$0$968$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
> "Athel Cornish-Bowden" <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> a �crit dans le message de
>> On 2009-11-02 13:42:17 +0100, Albert ARIBAUD <albert....@free.fr>
>> said:
>>
>>> Bonjour,
>>>
>>> Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>
>>>> On 2009-11-02 11:53:27 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> said:
>>>>
>>>>> Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Les vieux portent un beret"
>>>>
>>>> correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a matter
>>>> of fact (at least in the south of France): I can't remember the last
>>>> time I saw someone in a beret.
>>>
>>> I can show some, but that's certainly not generalized, nor is it limited
>>> mostly worn by elders but on some occasions by yougers too (think of the
>>> or Dax).
>>
>> I was thinking of a lot further east than that -- Marseilles to be
>> precise. If the stereotypes are to be believed I'd certainly expct to see
>> some berets in the Basque country.
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>
>>>> For the berets, I think they have to be plural. For the uniform I'd
>>>> be less dogmatic. I'd use the plural myself, and I think most native
>>>> speakers would, but I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I saw
>>>> it in the singular.
>>>
>>> I think that would depend on the precise meaning to convey. For
>>> instance: ...
>>
>> Probably it was obvious, but in case not I should say that my comments on
>> usage were entirely about usage in English.
>
> Indeed, it was the correct English usage that concerned me. I felt that
> the French were more inclined to use the singular version, and therefore
> may be tempted in translation (into English) to do likewise. I may be
> mistaken, but having just read my son's English homework I had doubts
> about the following written by his (French national) teacher:
>
> "Spriggans live in Cornwall, so they are Cornish. They are tall and slim
> with a long beard and a crooked nose. They wear a long green coat, a big
> hat, and they carry a bag. They have got a long stick with a skull on it.
> They look mean".
>
> It just doesn't sound right to me, I would have preferred plurals. The
> equivalent in French sounds ok, but I could be mistaken.
(To clarify, we are an Anglo-French family living in France)
MH
For the nouns to be in agreement in number with the personal
pronouns/subjects I would use the plural;
... with long beards and crooked noses... etc.
--
MH
Albert ARIBAUD
Le Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:40:52 +0800, LEE Sau Dan
<dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> a ï¿œcrit :
> >>>>> "Albert" == Albert ARIBAUD <albert....@free.fr> writes:
>
> Albert> "Les gendarmes portent des uniformes bleus" would mean
> Albert> that every 'gendarme' (sorry, that's different from
> Albert> 'policeman')
>
> Aren't they soldiers?
They are indeed, while policemen are civilan.
However beware that translating 'gendarmes' as 'soldiers', while
technically true, would be quite wrong, as gendarmes are just as
different from policemen as they are from soldiers. The mission of
gendarmerie is not warfare activity; it is civilian-oriented,
peace-time, activities, such as general police (geographically shared
with the actual police force) and road traffic control (speeding /
drunk driving /...)
Amicalement,
--
Albert.
Albert ARIBAUD
Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:28:49 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> a
ï¿œcrit :
> "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> a ï¿œcrit dans le message de news:
> 4aef1634$0$968$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
> > "Athel Cornish-Bowden" <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> a ï¿œcrit dans le
> > message de news: 7l8c6hF...@mid.individual.net...
> >> On 2009-11-02 13:42:17 +0100, Albert ARIBAUD
> >> <albert....@free.fr> said:
> >>
> >>> Bonjour,
> >>>
> >>> Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> >>> <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> a ï¿œcrit :
> >>>
> >>>> On 2009-11-02 11:53:27 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Les vieux portent un beret"
> >>>>
> >>>> correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a
> >>>> matter of fact (at least in the south of France): I can't
> >>>> remember the last time I saw someone in a beret.
> >>>
> >>> I can show some, but that's certainly not generalized, nor is it
> >>> limited to old people. Mainly you'll find bï¿œrets in in the south
> >>> of France, mostly worn by elders but on some occasions by yougers
> >>> too (think of the pays basque, and especially the "fï¿œtes de
I would concur with the plural here for the English version, unless
Spriggans have some codex stating that they all should have a long
beard, crooked nose etc. Since each one has (I assume) his own length
of beard and his own shape of crooked nose, we're not in a uniform
situation here.
Note that the French have (yet) a third way of stating a generalization:
besides "ils ont une longue barbe" (which would tend toward 'identical'
beards) and "ils ont de longues barbes" (which would tend toward long
but different beards), you could find "ils ont la barbe longue" -- which
basically belongs to the 'identically long' class.
Also note that in some cases the French singular would be plain wrong :
"Ils ont un long bￜton surmontￜ d'un crￜne" could mean that they have a
only one skull-onna-stick for all to share and pass around, which I
don't think is the intended sense.
Out of perverted curiosity and intent to introduce some teachers to
lesser known uses of large trouts, What was the French version of the
text?
Amicalement,
--
Albert.
PG
"Albert ARIBAUD" <albert....@free.fr> a �crit dans le message de news:
4aefdddd$0$4890$426a...@news.free.fr...> �crit :
>
>> "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> a �crit dans le message de news:
>> 4aef1634$0$968$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
>> > "Athel Cornish-Bowden" <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> a �crit dans le
>> > message de news: 7l8c6hF...@mid.individual.net...
>> >> On 2009-11-02 13:42:17 +0100, Albert ARIBAUD
>> >> <albert....@free.fr> said:
>> >>
>> >>> Bonjour,
>> >>>
>> >>> Le Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 2009-11-02 11:53:27 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> said:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Is anyone aware of the rule in English grammar on this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In French it is apparently correct to say/write, eg:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Les vieux portent un beret"
>> >>>>
>> >>>> correct a a matter of grammar, yes, I think so, but not as a
>> >>>> matter of fact (at least in the south of France): I can't
>> >>>> remember the last time I saw someone in a beret.
>> >>>
>> >>> I can show some, but that's certainly not generalized, nor is it
>> >>> of France, mostly worn by elders but on some occasions by yougers
> only one skull-onna-stick for all to share and pass around, which I
> don't think is the intended sense.
>
> Out of perverted curiosity and intent to introduce some teachers to
> lesser known uses of large trouts, What was the French version of the
> text?
>
> Amicalement,
No French version as far as I know, my son's French mother tongue English
teacher simply gave this to the class to learn for a 'contr�le' this coming
week, and being virtually bilingual he found it rather odd and asked for my
opinion. I'm hoping the teacher made it up herself, rather than found it in
an English text book, which would be rather worrying. Mind you, the fact
that there are teachers who make such mistakes, along with their dreadful
accents, is worrying enough in itself. Both my son and I regularly spot
simple errors in the sentences she uses to demonstrate various grammatical
rules. But she's a pleasant enough lady, I haven't the heart to tell her. I
suppose it's not the end of the world en 3�me, and I'm assuming once at the
lyc�e standards will be higher. Ever the optimist...
Albert ARIBAUD
Le Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:14:14 +0100, "PG" <pg...@alpesprovence.net> a
ï¿œcrit :
> No French version as far as I know, my son's French mother tongue
> English teacher simply gave this to the class to learn for a
> 'contrï¿œle' this coming week, and being virtually bilingual he found
> it rather odd and asked for my opinion. I'm hoping the teacher made
> it up herself, rather than found it in an English text book, which
> would be rather worrying. Mind you, the fact that there are teachers
> who make such mistakes, along with their dreadful accents, is
> worrying enough in itself. Both my son and I regularly spot simple
> errors in the sentences she uses to demonstrate various grammatical
> rules. But she's a pleasant enough lady, I haven't the heart to tell
> her. I suppose it's not the end of the world en 3ï¿œme, and I'm
> assuming once at the lycï¿œe standards will be higher. Ever the
> optimist...
Don't hold your breath though... In my first year at the ï¿œcole
d'ingï¿œnieur (that's the first years of engineering studies, right after
baccalaurï¿œat) I went to, round 1983, I had a dreadful English teacher
(wiz ze bad frenche accent and all ze rest), and then some equally awful
in other matters too. You find bad teachers at any level, for any
subject -- just like in any other field of activity, only we tend to
expect more of teachers because of the implicit assumption that the
one who teaches should know better than anyone else.
Amicalement,
--
Albert.
Evertjan.
> Le Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:40:52 +0800, LEE Sau Dan
> <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> a �crit :
>
>> >>>>> "Albert" == Albert ARIBAUD <albert....@free.fr> writes:
>>
>> Albert> "Les gendarmes portent des uniformes bleus" would mean
>> Albert> that every 'gendarme' (sorry, that's different from
>> Albert> 'policeman')
>>
>> Aren't they soldiers?
>
> They are indeed, while policemen are civilan.
Not necessarily, it depends om the local situation.
In either case they could and should be civil.
> However beware that translating 'gendarmes' as 'soldiers', while
> technically true, would be quite wrong, as gendarmes are just as
> different from policemen as they are from soldiers. The mission of
> gendarmerie is not warfare activity; it is civilian-oriented,
> peace-time, activities, such as general police (geographically shared
> with the actual police force) and road traffic control (speeding /
> drunk driving /...)
As all translating diminishes the exact original meaning,
[in for instance fiction translation]
it could depending on context be quite acceptable
to translate "gendarme" into "policeman".
In many countries there is a difference between city-police and country-
police, in Greek astufulakia and chorofulakia, even the etymology of the
word "police" comes from polis [city], so police used to be city-police.
In some countries the country police becme a State police, and in federl
countries there could be also federal police.
In some countries the State police was part of the military.
In The Netherlands and the UK the police is now regionally organized,
while in Italy you can choose between two emergeny telephone numbers 112
and 113, depending on which police you want to receive your murder tip,
and if possible bothe police forces could arive at the same time from
opposite directions [so I have heard].
In Belgium there used to be three different and fiersly competing police-
forces, as there are, according to Hollywood, in thre States.
"Gendarme" probably is not exactly the same in all francophone countries.
[Does it exist as a force in Quibec, Canada?]
Please natives, correct me where I am wrong.
But should all this be apparent in a simple translation?
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
>
> [ ... ]
>
> No French version as far as I know, my son's French mother tongue English
> teacher simply gave this to the class to learn for a 'contr锟絣e' this coming
> week, and being virtually bilingual he found it rather odd and asked for my
> opinion. I'm hoping the teacher made it up herself, rather than found it in
> an English text book, which would be rather worrying. Mind you, the fact
> that there are teachers who make such mistakes, along with their dreadful
> accents, is worrying enough in itself. Both my son and I regularly spot
> simple errors in the sentences she uses to demonstrate various grammatical
> rules. But she's a pleasant enough lady, I haven't the heart to tell her. I
> suppose it's not the end of the world en 3锟絤e, and I'm assuming once at the
> lyc锟絜 standards will be higher. Ever the optimist...
When my daughter was at the 锟絚ole Primaire she took German, as I didn't
see any point in her learning English from a teacher who spoke less
English than she did. However, when she went into sixi锟絤e English was
compulsory, and the school were deaf to all requests that she take
something else instead. On the whole her English teachers at Coll锟絞e
and Lyc锟絜 spoke English reasonably well (though less well than she
did), but I don't think she learned much from them, and like you and
your son we regularly spotted simple errors. Fortunately my daughter
realized early on that I was a more reliable guide to English than her
teachers were.
Having said that, I should add that all the teachers of English I've
encountered in France have been more proficient than the average
teacher of French in England tends to be.
--
athel