Google Groups no longer supports new usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

If kokeshis could talk...

1 view
Skip to the first unread message

oofoe

unread,
31 Jul 2002, 14:39:2231/07/2002
to
Hi!

I'm sure this is a very simple question, I just want to get it right...

If I wanted to say that I was a ninja kokeshi doll, would I say
"kokeshi no ninja desu"? Or "ninja no kokeshi desu"? Or...
Would it be something else altogether? I always get confused on
using 'no' like that.

Now, if I wanted to say that I was a _happy_ ninja doll, would
that be "kokeshi no genki ninja desu"? OK, so "genki" is probably
closer to "spirited", but I'm trying to use it in a cute
NewType-ish way.

Thanks!

Jos'h

Nargun

unread,
31 Jul 2002, 22:35:1931/07/2002
to
On 31 Jul 2002, oofoe wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I'm sure this is a very simple question, I just want to get it right...
>
> If I wanted to say that I was a ninja kokeshi doll, would I say
> "kokeshi no ninja desu"? Or "ninja no kokeshi desu"? Or...
> Would it be something else altogether? I always get confused on
> using 'no' like that.

At a guess, both. The first is "a ninja which is a doll", the second "a
doll which is a ninja" [or, possibly, a doll which belongs to a ninja].
IOW, the first is the modifier, the second is modified.

I'm not sure which would be more common in everyday conversation.

> Now, if I wanted to say that I was a _happy_ ninja doll, would
> that be "kokeshi no genki ninja desu"? OK, so "genki" is probably
> closer to "spirited", but I'm trying to use it in a cute
> NewType-ish way.

1: Genki is a keiyoudoushi, a na-adjective; "genkina".

I didn't know the word kokeshi until five minutes ago, but my instinct
calls "genki na ninja no kokeshi", or possibly "genki na ninja-kokeshi".

Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au

"For the point is", continued Bill, "here we are pretty close
up to the end of the book, and something will have to be done
in a Tremendous Hurry, or else we'll be cut off short by the
cover." -- _The Magic Pudding_, Norman Lindsay

Sean Holland

unread,
1 Aug 2002, 00:08:1501/08/2002
to
in article
Pine.OSF.4.10.102080...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au, Nargun
at lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au wrote on 7/31/02 7:35 PM:

> On 31 Jul 2002, oofoe wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I'm sure this is a very simple question, I just want to get it right...
>>
>> If I wanted to say that I was a ninja kokeshi doll, would I say
>> "kokeshi no ninja desu"? Or "ninja no kokeshi desu"? Or...
>> Would it be something else altogether? I always get confused on
>> using 'no' like that.
>
> At a guess, both. The first is "a ninja which is a doll", the second "a
> doll which is a ninja" [or, possibly, a doll which belongs to a ninja].
> IOW, the first is the modifier, the second is modified.
>
> I'm not sure which would be more common in everyday conversation.
>
>> Now, if I wanted to say that I was a _happy_ ninja doll, would
>> that be "kokeshi no genki ninja desu"? OK, so "genki" is probably
>> closer to "spirited", but I'm trying to use it in a cute
>> NewType-ish way.
>
> 1: Genki is a keiyoudoushi, a na-adjective; "genkina".
>
> I didn't know the word kokeshi until five minutes ago, but my instinct
> calls "genki na ninja no kokeshi", or possibly "genki na ninja-kokeshi".

I wonder if it is as incomprehensible in Japanese as it is in English.
Sounds like context is required big-time.

Nargun

unread,
1 Aug 2002, 07:39:0301/08/2002
to

I do syntax. Meaning is someone else's problem.

oofoe

unread,
1 Aug 2002, 12:09:5101/08/2002
to
Hi!

> > If I wanted to say that I was a ninja kokeshi doll, would I say
> > "kokeshi no ninja desu"? Or "ninja no kokeshi desu"? Or...
>

> At a guess, both. The first is "a ninja which is a doll", the second "a

Thanks very much, your explanation helped!

> I didn't know the word kokeshi until five minutes ago, but my instinct
> calls "genki na ninja no kokeshi", or possibly "genki na ninja-kokeshi".

Is 'na' a particle? My particle dictionary had no entry for it at all
except as a kind of emphasizer "used in male speech." I had thought it
_was_ a particle to indicate adjectives, but now I'm not so sure.

Thanks!

Jos'h

Chris Kern

unread,
1 Aug 2002, 13:36:4401/08/2002
to
On 1 Aug 2002 09:09:51 -0700, joshf...@operamail.com (oofoe) wrote:

>Is 'na' a particle? My particle dictionary had no entry for it at all
>except as a kind of emphasizer "used in male speech." I had thought it
>_was_ a particle to indicate adjectives, but now I'm not so sure.

Certain words require "na" rather than "no" to join them to a noun.
The terminology varies, but sometimes they are called "na adjectives".
"genki" is one of these. (This is neither an exhaustive nor a
pedantic explanation of the grammar involved, if you're more
interested I'm sure something like Dictionary of Basic Japanese
Grammar would have a more in-depth explanation.)

-Chris

Jed Rothwell

unread,
1 Aug 2002, 15:24:1801/08/2002
to
If kokeshi could talk, you would not want to hear what they have to say,
since they represent the souls of dead and / or aborted babies. I don't
suppose there are happy ones. The modern tourist trade ones do not reflect
this.

What exactly are you trying to say? It is not clear to me what a ninja
kokeshi would be . . . A kokeshi dressed as a ninja, I guess.

- Jed

Michael Khan

unread,
2 Aug 2002, 02:38:5702/08/2002
to

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> What exactly are you trying to say? It is not clear to me what a ninja
> kokeshi would be . . . A kokeshi dressed as a ninja, I guess.

I've been wondering all along: Perhaps he confused "ninja" with
"ningyou"?

rose

unread,
2 Aug 2002, 03:51:4602/08/2002
to

Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> What exactly are you trying to say? It is not clear to me what a ninja
> kokeshi would be . . . A kokeshi dressed as a ninja, I guess.

Whatever a ninja kokeshi is, I am so うけました。(^▽^、

□■     <:3 )~
■楽猫 <:3 )~ 

oofoe

unread,
2 Aug 2002, 11:43:0102/08/2002
to
Hi!

> If kokeshi could talk, you would not want to hear what they have to say,
> since they represent the souls of dead and / or aborted babies. I don't

Hmmm... I am completely unable to find any references to this. The best
information I have indicates that they have always been knickknacks for
the tourist trade, the first ones being made by bored farmers at the
hot springs in Tohoku region. If you could supply with a reference I would
be grateful.

> I don't suppose there are happy ones.

Oh... Come on! Haven't you ever seen these things? They're so cute and
happy they bid fair to bust the kawaii (sp?) fuses!

The modern world is littered with icons that have been stripped of their
former symbolism, so I'm not particularly bothered by what freight it
carried before. It is considered a collectable now, and many people
(my wife among them!) have collected them.

> What exactly are you trying to say? It is not clear to me what a ninja
> kokeshi would be . . . A kokeshi dressed as a ninja, I guess.

Exactly! We happen to have such a kokeshi (painted in a ninja outfit
instead of in a kimono). He's the star of a (very) short film that I'm
doing.

Jos'h

Michael Cash

unread,
3 Aug 2002, 06:03:3703/08/2002
to
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:24:18 -0400, "Jed Rothwell"
<jedro...@infinite-energy.com> hawked up this load of mental
phlegm:

>If kokeshi could talk, you would not want to hear what they have to say,
>since they represent the souls of dead and / or aborted babies. I don't
>suppose there are happy ones.

Then you have never met a dendou kokeshi.

>
>What exactly are you trying to say? It is not clear to me what a ninja
>kokeshi would be

A dendou kokeshi might qualify as a ninja. They do a lot of
hiding...well...playing peek-a-boo would be more like it, I suppose.


--

Michael Cash

"Would you please quit eating the specimens already?"

Prof. Marlin C. Bass
Mount Pilot College
School of Marine Biology

http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/
http://www.oldies.jp

Jed Rothwell

unread,
5 Aug 2002, 10:42:3705/08/2002
to
oofoe write:

> > If kokeshi could talk, you would not want to hear what they have to say,
> > since they represent the souls of dead and / or aborted babies. I don't
>
> Hmmm... I am completely unable to find any references to this.

Read any anthropology book. Also, think about the name: kokeshi = ko (child)
+ kesu (extinguish, erase).


> The modern world is littered with icons that have been stripped of their
> former symbolism, so I'm not particularly bothered by what freight it
> carried before.

They have not been stripped of their symbolism. They are still used by
grieving parents after abortion or miscarriages. You see them at shrines
devoted to dead children, of which there are many in Japan. Of course there
are also tourist trade cute ones, but they give me the creeps.


> > What exactly are you trying to say? It is not clear to me what a ninja
> > kokeshi would be . . . A kokeshi dressed as a ninja, I guess.
>
> Exactly! We happen to have such a kokeshi (painted in a ninja outfit
> instead of in a kimono). He's the star of a (very) short film that I'm
> doing.

I see. Well, that gives me the creeps. It is slightly inappropriate, like
making a cute cartoon with a Cross or Star of David as decoration. (I have
seen Japanese cartoons with such symbols.)

- Jed

Anthony J. Bryant

unread,
3 Aug 2002, 18:57:3003/08/2002
to
oofoe wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I'm sure this is a very simple question, I just want to get it right...
>
> If I wanted to say that I was a ninja kokeshi doll, would I say
> "kokeshi no ninja desu"? Or "ninja no kokeshi desu"? Or...
> Would it be something else altogether? I always get confused on
> using 'no' like that.
>

It depends. Do you want to imply a ninja kokeshi, or a kokeshi ninja? In
other words, which is the essence, and which is the form?

Tony

Don Kirkman

unread,
5 Aug 2002, 20:14:3305/08/2002
to
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jed Rothwell wrote in article
<3d4e8eb0$1...@nopics.sjc>:

>oofoe write:

>> > If kokeshi could talk, you would not want to hear what they have to say,
>> > since they represent the souls of dead and / or aborted babies. I don't

>> Hmmm... I am completely unable to find any references to this.

>Read any anthropology book. Also, think about the name: kokeshi = ko (child)
>+ kesu (extinguish, erase).

Do you have a reference to something more definitive than these Web
pages? What anthropology books are you using? I think we all know
better than to trust what we find on the Web.

"[K]okeshi dolls, a product of Japan's turnery arts, are made of carved
and painted wood. They have a relatively short history and originated in
the later part of the Edo period and are a handicraft traditional to the
Tohoku region. Their characteristic feature is that they are made with
heads and bodies, but no arms or legs are visible."
http://www.jfcairo.com/doll/

"The Kokeshi dolls date from around 1800. In the six prefectures of the
Tohoku region there are a total of 10 types of "Kokeshi." The most
dominant type is the Naruko variety originally made in Miyagi
Prefecture, which can also be found in Akita, Iwate, and Yamagata
prefectures. These days not only dolls with a traditional style but also
creative Kokeshi that incorporate contemporary taste are being made.

"Some people have suggested that some influence of "Kokeshi" can be seen
in the Russian nesting dolls that originated in the nineteenth century.
There is some disagreement as to the origin of the Kokeshi doll. Some
say the dolls were made to represent the baby girls that were killed at
a time when genocide was practiced, but many historians are convinced
that these dolls were made by woodcutters for the enjoyment of their own
children.

"The woodcutters who worked the remote mountains didn't have money for
luxuries like fine dolls, but whenever there was an extra scrap of wood,
they would turn it on a lathe and create a doll complete with eyes,
nose, and mouth, much to the delight of their children."
http://www.nestingdolls4u.com/history/japanhistory.htm

>> The modern world is littered with icons that have been stripped of their
>> former symbolism, so I'm not particularly bothered by what freight it
>> carried before.

The modern world is also littered with latterday icons adding a patina
to old arts, crafts, and usages. :-)

>They have not been stripped of their symbolism. They are still used by
>grieving parents after abortion or miscarriages. You see them at shrines
>devoted to dead children, of which there are many in Japan. Of course there
>are also tourist trade cute ones, but they give me the creeps.

I didn't get around to many shrines devoted to dead children, but I
can't recall seeing kokeshi around the few shrines I did see--but
IAMOTBSIHSMs. Can you add some details?

I wonder why genocide and commemoration of dead babies was apparently a
phenomenon limited to Tohoku?

Also, do you have a reference for the "ko keshi" derivation? EDICT
carries it as 小芥子, and my ShinMeiKai glosses it as
小さい芥子人形の意, which smacks of atejiism. Apparently a
"keshiningyou" itself is a miniature doll, so maybe a kokeshi is a
sub-miniature?
--
Don
don...@covad.net

Louise Bremner

unread,
5 Aug 2002, 21:50:2405/08/2002
to
Don Kirkman <spamb...@covad.net> quoted:

> Some say the dolls were made to represent the baby girls that were killed
> at a time when genocide was practiced

Do they really mean "genocide"? Or is that a typo for "infanticide"?

> ...whenever there was an extra scrap of wood, they would turn it on a lathe


> and create a doll complete with eyes, nose, and mouth, much to the delight
> of their children.

That would be a fine skill, on a lathe!

It's an interesting page (love the cursor-following dots), but those
quibbles make me wonder about accuracy.

________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!

Anthony J. Bryant

unread,
11 Aug 2002, 19:15:5311/08/2002
to
Louise Bremner wrote:

> Don Kirkman <spamb...@covad.net> quoted:
>
> > Some say the dolls were made to represent the baby girls that were killed
> > at a time when genocide was practiced
>
> Do they really mean "genocide"? Or is that a typo for "infanticide"?
>

More likely a typo for gynocide.


Tony

0 new messages