Takochuu
Travers Naran
It was all in hiragana, so no kanji clues for me. Yes, I saw it in a
manga, Charles, so you can put down the flamethrower now. :-)
Phil Healey
> Does anybody know what this exclamation means: たこちゅー
"Octopussing."
--
「I wen come fo bring da fire on top da earth, an now I like da fire fo
start」 路十二・四十九
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
>>Does anybody know what this exclamation means: たこちゅー
>
> "Octopussing."
That's what *I* thought it meant, but it just seemed a little too bizarre
to be true. A girl was demonstrating her flexibility at the time, so I
suppose so...
Charles Eicher
>
>Does anybody know what this exclamation means: たこちゅ・踉
>
>It was all in hiragana, so no kanji clues for me. Yes, I saw it in a
>manga, Charles, so you can put down the flamethrower now. :-)
What do you mean, put it DOWN? You couldn't have picked a better
example for me to roast you with.
Google is your friend:
http://tadasii.hp.infoseek.co.jp/tako11.html
Manga is not your friend. You have wasted your time and neurons
trying to figure out what takochuu is, something known by every
little kid in Japan that ever bought a Lotte chocolate bar.
Charles Eicher
Google is your friend
http://www.buildupstudiosigma.com/HTM/yomi/yomi07.htm
Manga is not your friend. Remember the little game pieces
that come in Lotte chocolate bars? You stack them up and
bend them into little poses like an octopus with its sucker
against the ground. It's obviously derived from a children's
game. You are basically asking the equivalent of a nihonjin
asking "what's leapfrog?" Is this really something you, as an
adult, need to know?
Travers Naran
> In article <AApcc.11426$J56.1135@edtnps89>, Travers Naran says...
>
>>Phil Healey wrote:
>>
>>>Travers Naran wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Does anybody know what this exclamation means: たこちゅー
>>>
>>>"Octopussing."
>>
>>That's what *I* thought it meant, but it just seemed a little too bizarre
>>to be true. A girl was demonstrating her flexibility at the time, so I
>>suppose so...
>
>
> Google is your friend
>
> http://www.buildupstudiosigma.com/HTM/yomi/yomi07.htm
>
> Manga is not your friend. Remember the little game pieces
> that come in Lotte chocolate bars?
Nope, not a bit. If I read the page correctly, this was over 20 years ago,
correct? I was surviving Grade 8 or 9 at the time.
> You stack them up and
> bend them into little poses like an octopus with its sucker
> against the ground. It's obviously derived from a children's
> game. You are basically asking the equivalent of a nihonjin
> asking "what's leapfrog?" Is this really something you, as an
> adult, need to know?
Yes, I did. Now I can die a happy otaku. Thank you. :-P
Travers Naran
> In article <06occ.6697$Sh4.4590@edtnps84>, Travers Naran says...
>
>>Does anybody know what this exclamation means: たこちゅ・踉
>>
>>It was all in hiragana, so no kanji clues for me. Yes, I saw it in a
>>manga, Charles, so you can put down the flamethrower now. :-)
>
>
> What do you mean, put it DOWN? You couldn't have picked a better
> example for me to roast you with.
>
> Google is your friend:
>
> http://tadasii.hp.infoseek.co.jp/tako11.html
I didn't find anything like this when I searched, but I didn't beyond the
first page of hits. I was mostly looking for pictures of the things. I
think it's because I stupidly thought google.ca returns the same results as
google.co.jp.
> Manga is not your friend. You have wasted your time and neurons
> trying to figure out what takochuu is, something known by every
> little kid in Japan that ever bought a Lotte chocolate bar.
Unfortunately, I was never a little kid in Japan and never bought a Lotte
chocolate bar. But I can at least console myself that I know that when I
eat my Smarties that I can eat the red ones last.
Charles Eicher
And that's the point. You will never be a little kid in Japan that
buys a Lotte chocolate bar. Manga contains millions of little
cultural references that you will have to laboriously research the
meaning, only to discover that they are trivial and weren't worth
your time to look up in the first place. That is time you could
have spent learning something useful.
Paul Blay
> In article <zJrcc.5428$2H4.2489@clgrps12>, Travers Naran says...
>
> >chocolate bar. But I can at least console myself that I know that when I
> >eat my Smarties that I can eat the red ones last.
>
> And that's the point. You will never be a little kid in Japan that
> have spent learning something useful.
Sure it's useful. Next time he's reading a manga that includes
たこちゅー he'll know what it means. You're ends/means confusing again.
necoandjeff
news:c4tlr...@drn.newsguy.com...
Here we go again with your cultural arrogance. You can't dismiss this kind
of cultural knowledge out of hand like that. Depending on one's goals, it
could be very useful. It could give someone the ability to bond a little
better with his or her peers, for example. Put simply, you have no right to
determine what is "useful" to Travers. You, for example, may have amassed a
certain amount of Japanese literary or artistic knowledge about which,
frankly, most of my Japanese friends probably know as little as I. To me,
acquiring that kind of knowledge is not only something that I am not
interested in spending my time doing, it would also be useless to me for
virtually any possible purpose I can think of; it would be wasted knowledge.
But my subjective view would not, of course, apply to everyone.
Jeff
Phil Healey
> And that's the point. You will never be a little kid in Japan that
> buys a Lotte chocolate bar. Manga contains millions of little
> cultural references that you will have to laboriously research the
> meaning, only to discover that they are trivial and weren't worth
> your time to look up in the first place. That is time you could
> have spent learning something useful.
If you're interested in Japanese popular culture, it's all the little
details that are fascinating. In that sense, knowing what a Takochu is
and knowing who wrote Yukiguni are equally "useful" pieces of knowledge.
Also, note that using manga to study Japanese as a beginner is
counter-productive, but once you already speak the language, manga can
be an invaluable resource for slang and other little cultural quiddities.
Chris Kern
the following:
>And that's the point. You will never be a little kid in Japan that
>buys a Lotte chocolate bar. Manga contains millions of little
>cultural references that you will have to laboriously research the
>meaning, only to discover that they are trivial and weren't worth
>your time to look up in the first place. That is time you could
>have spent learning something useful.
We do plenty of things that we could otherwise be learning something
useful (i.e. I could probably learn a few vocabulary words in the time
it takes to write this post). But it's no fun to only learn "useful"
things; there can be great entertainment in learning ridiculous slang
or expressions that are so archaic you will never see them.
I would put manga slang like takochuu one step above 2ch slang (yes,
this does seem to exist), so it's not the bottom of the ladder.
-Chris
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>It could give someone the ability to bond a little
>better with his or her peers, for example.
People who have jobs in Japan working with small children in
particular can benefit from this kind of knowledge (it always helps to
know what the kids are talking about).
-Chris
Sean Holland
sp...@schrepfer.com wrote on 4/6/04 1:26 AM:
> Here we go again with your cultural arrogance. You can't dismiss this kind
> of cultural knowledge out of hand like that. Depending on one's goals, it
> could be very useful. It could give someone the ability to bond a little
> better with his or her peers, for example. Put simply, you have no right to
> determine what is "useful" to Travers. You, for example, may have amassed a
> certain amount of Japanese literary or artistic knowledge about which,
> frankly, most of my Japanese friends probably know as little as I. To me,
> acquiring that kind of knowledge is not only something that I am not
> interested in spending my time doing, it would also be useless to me for
> virtually any possible purpose I can think of; it would be wasted knowledge.
> But my subjective view would not, of course, apply to everyone.
>
> Jeff
Stop making sense. It's un-American.
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
pantssea...@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
necoandjeff
news:BC980780.B22D%seanh...@pants.telus.net...
> in article tQtcc.47085$FL....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com, necoandjeff at
> sp...@schrepfer.com wrote on 4/6/04 1:26 AM:
>
> > Here we go again with your cultural arrogance. You can't dismiss this
kind
> > of cultural knowledge out of hand like that. Depending on one's goals,
it
> > could be very useful. It could give someone the ability to bond a little
> > better with his or her peers, for example. Put simply, you have no right
to
> > determine what is "useful" to Travers. You, for example, may have
amassed a
> > certain amount of Japanese literary or artistic knowledge about which,
> > frankly, most of my Japanese friends probably know as little as I. To
me,
> > acquiring that kind of knowledge is not only something that I am not
> > interested in spending my time doing, it would also be useless to me for
> > virtually any possible purpose I can think of; it would be wasted
knowledge.
> > But my subjective view would not, of course, apply to everyone.
> >
> > Jeff
>
> Stop making sense. It's un-American.
Oh. Sorry.
Charles Eicher
Little kids playing takochuu are not your peers.
>Put simply, you have no right to
>determine what is "useful" to Travers. You, for example, may have amassed a
>certain amount of Japanese literary or artistic knowledge about which,
>frankly, most of my Japanese friends probably know as little as I. To me,
>acquiring that kind of knowledge is not only something that I am not
>interested in spending my time doing, it would also be useless to me for
>virtually any possible purpose I can think of; it would be wasted knowledge.
>But my subjective view would not, of course, apply to everyone.
And there's the difference. Japanese artists and writers ARE my peers. To
gain "obscure" knowledge in this area advances intercultural understanding
AND my ability to advance the state of the arts. And nobody ever won the
Nobel Prize in Literature for writing manga.
Charles Eicher
The obvious flaw in your reasoning is that if you actually DO get
a job working with little kids, you can always ASK them what they
are talking about. I recall my professor in Japan, a native speaker,
complaining that every time he came to Japan after a year in the
US, he couldn't understand what the kids were talking about, their
slang changed so rapidly. He asserted that it was worthless to
try to learn slang because you're always shooting at a moving
target. If it is that bad for native speakers, what chance do YOU
have of learning, let alone correctly using, such words?
Phil Healey
> And nobody ever won the
> Nobel Prize in Literature for writing manga.
And if they did, would you change your mind?
Travers Naran
I guess he forgot my self-introduction which said my end was learning
to read manga & watch anime. It's the cultural minutia that I find so
interesting. I know my pen-pals in Japan say they like the fact I'm a
wealth of cultural minutia about English & North American society
which they also find interesting.
And yes, I kicked ass at Trivial Pursuit. ;-)
Travers Naran
True, or in my case, it was the "end". If I want to read for
edumacational benefits, I'd be better off reading News for Kids
websites in Japanese, correct? :-) (Which I do)
Although I have also found some childrens' books at Daiso which use
standard, polite Japanese with furigana that were also helpful.
necoandjeff
Yes, all great reasons why for YOU learning about art and literature is a
worthwhile pursuit. It still gives you no right to make the determination of
what is worthwhile for Travers or to pass judgment on his choices. I can
find plenty of people who would consider your pursuits a waste of time as
well (which includes myself as I mentioned above) but the key is this: I
would only consider it a waste of MY time. I have no business determining
what is a waste of YOUR time. If you enjoy what you do then I think it is
worthwhile. Similarly I trust that what Travers is doing is a perfectly fine
way to spend his time.
Jeff
Cindy
Too bad for manga fans, but I like Charles's stubborn belief about
manga. That makes "Charles" indeed. I never hope Charles is convinced
by manga fans or lawyers. I always want Charles to be against manga and
trash it whenever he talks about it. That makes him stand out and makes
him cool.
Charles Eicher
You're still missing the point. You will never be a peer of little kids playing
takochuu, no matter what you do. It's too late now. But if you read about the
arts or literature, you can become peers with artists and writers. This isn't
just about me. The world is a dumber, stupider place because of people
who read manga.
necoandjeff
No, but you will be a peer of people who have experienced such things in
their own childhood. And the rest of your post makes one assumption and one
judgment. The assumption is, once again, that somehow EVERYONE should want
to become peers of artists and writers. That isn't any more the case than
the assumption that everyone wants to be the peer of musicians, or
biologists, or financiers, or any other category of people out there. I
don't want to become a peer of such people or increase my ability to
communicate with them about such topics because I don't share their
interests. For the record I don't share an interest in manga either. The
judgment of course is that understanding one form of art over the other is
smarter. I don't see how you can uphold such a justification. One can
exhibit the same amount of brain power and depth of understanding regarding
anything they happen to chose as being a hobby or an interest. Judgments,
you just can stop yourself from passing judgment on others lowering them and
elevating yourself. Why might that be?
Jeff
necoandjeff
news:cADcc.201687$Cb.1779700@attbi_s51...
> > Yes, all great reasons why for YOU learning about art and literature is
a
> > worthwhile pursuit. It still gives you no right to make the
determination of
> > what is worthwhile for Travers or to pass judgment on his choices. I can
> > find plenty of people who would consider your pursuits a waste of time
as
> > well (which includes myself as I mentioned above) but the key is this: I
> > would only consider it a waste of MY time. I have no business
determining
> > what is a waste of YOUR time. If you enjoy what you do then I think it
is
> > worthwhile. Similarly I trust that what Travers is doing is a perfectly
fine
> > way to spend his time.
>
> Too bad for manga fans, but I like Charles's stubborn belief about
> manga. That makes "Charles" indeed. I never hope Charles is convinced
> by manga fans or lawyers. I always want Charles to be against manga and
> trash it whenever he talks about it. That makes him stand out and makes
> him cool.
In your rush to contradict me Cindy you have completely missed the point
(certainly not a first.) I'm not trying to convince Charles that manga is
good. I'm simply trying to convince him that passing judgment on others
because they happen to like manga is wrong. Charles not only hates manga he
looks down upon those who are interested in it and rants on and on about
what a waste of time it is, as if what is a waste of his time is necessarily
a waste of everyone else's time. That is just a ridiculous and arrogant way
of thinking. I could care less whether Charles likes manga. I don't even
like manga myself.
Jeff
Kevin Wayne Williams
> In your rush to contradict me Cindy you have completely missed the point
> (certainly not a first.) I'm not trying to convince Charles that manga is
> good. I'm simply trying to convince him that passing judgment on others
> because they happen to like manga is wrong. Charles not only hates manga he
> looks down upon those who are interested in it and rants on and on about
> what a waste of time it is, as if what is a waste of his time is necessarily
> a waste of everyone else's time. That is just a ridiculous and arrogant way
> of thinking.
Charles does one thing: he reminds me that such thinking isn't an
exclusively Christian failing.
KWW
Bart Mathias
> In article <06occ.6697$Sh4.4590@edtnps84>, Travers Naran says...
>
>>Does anybody know what this exclamation means: たこちゅ・踉
>>
> ...
I had already tried Google for the suggested "octopussing." Twenty-two
hits that didn't give me a clue.
I'm not sure the Japanese site helped much more. What in the world is
she doing? And is that really called "octopussing" in English?
"Wheel of Fortune" often comes up with answers I've never heard of
before too, nowadays. Do you suppose (shudder) I'm out of it?
Bart
Trinker
necoandjeff wrote:
[...]Charles not only hates manga he
> looks down upon those who are interested in it and rants on and on about
> what a waste of time it is, as if what is a waste of his time is necessarily
> a waste of everyone else's time. That is just a ridiculous and arrogant way
> of thinking. I could care less whether Charles likes manga. I don't even
> like manga myself.
I'm so tempted to change my name to "Manga Daisuki".
--T
Phil Healey
Phil Healey
> Nothing you research and learn is trivial. Nothing.
Everything you research and learn is trivial. Everything.
Cindy
Charles has set his attitude like that a long time ago. Even before you
joined the group. To me and the old timers, it's norm. It's like my
talking about the Jewish culture. No, let me see ... better example is
my talking about lawyers. It's each person's personality. I am sure
you don't enjoy my trashing lawyer's, but I do enjoy Charles's trashing
manga topics and fans.
>Charles not only hates manga he
> looks down upon those who are interested in it and rants on and on about
> what a waste of time it is, as if what is a waste of his time is necessarily
> a waste of everyone else's time.
I think we need someone like Charles to balance it. I will call it
newsgroup homeostasis. His opinion could be a negative feedback, but it
is important sometimes.
>That is just a ridiculous and arrogant way
> of thinking. I could care less whether Charles likes manga. I don't even
> like manga myself.
You think so? If you do, I do love to see you getting mad.
Phil Healey
> I'm not sure the Japanese site helped much more. What in the world is
> she doing? And is that really called "octopussing" in English?
I made "octopussing" up. I extrapomolated from 電話中、会議中, etc.
> "Wheel of Fortune" often comes up with answers I've never heard of
> before too, nowadays. Do you suppose (shudder) I'm out of it?
That gameshow always sounded really Buddhist to me.
Charles Eicher
I have some shocking news for you. You better sit down, this might be
too much for you to handle: EVERYONE experiences childhood. Everyone
plays little kiddie games. You are already a peer with little kids. However,
most people grow out of that stage, with the exception of infantilists
and manga readers.
>And the rest of your post makes one assumption and one
>judgment. The assumption is, once again, that somehow EVERYONE should want
>to become peers of artists and writers.
No, I assume that everyone could aspire to become a writer or artist,
or something worthy of respect. But some people refuse to grow up.
Infantilists aspire to find a spouse that will tolerate their diaper fetish,
otaku similarly aspire to find other people that think they're cool because
they have an orientalism fetish. Perhaps there is a reason why artists
and writers garner more respect than infantilists and otaku.
>That isn't any more the case than
>the assumption that everyone wants to be the peer of musicians, or
>biologists, or financiers, or any other category of people out there. I
>don't want to become a peer of such people or increase my ability to
>communicate with them about such topics because I don't share their
>interests.
You don't have to share their interests in order to benefit. Biologists,
musicians, and financiers will continue to do their business without
your direct involvement. The world would be a poorer place without
them. On the other hand, the world is a dumber, stupider place
because of manga and those who are interested in it.
>For the record I don't share an interest in manga either. The
>judgment of course is that understanding one form of art over the other is
>smarter. I don't see how you can uphold such a justification.
The debate over High Art vs. Low Art has raged for years. There is
sufficient justification for my opinion. Just the existence of the
term "Low Art" ought to give you an idea that people generally
agree on what "artforms" are worthy of disrespect.
>One can
>exhibit the same amount of brain power and depth of understanding regarding
>anything they happen to chose as being a hobby or an interest.
You should read "Seibei to hyoutan" (Seibei and the Gourd) by Shiga Naoya.
Sure, you could become the most accomplished gourd polisher in
the world, and all you've got to show for it is a polished gourd. Today,
we call that sort of behavior "obsessive-compulsive disorder."
>Judgments,
>you just can stop yourself from passing judgment on others lowering them and
>elevating yourself. Why might that be?
I wasn't the one who originally contrasted manga vs. art & literature.
necoandjeff
> mirror wrote:
>
> > Nothing you research and learn is trivial. Nothing.
>
> Everything you research and learn is trivial. Everything.
Ha! I really liked Mirror's post, but I like this one much better.
Jeff
necoandjeff
> >>Too bad for manga fans, but I like Charles's stubborn belief about
> >>manga. That makes "Charles" indeed. I never hope Charles is convinced
> >>by manga fans or lawyers. I always want Charles to be against manga and
> >>trash it whenever he talks about it. That makes him stand out and makes
> >>him cool.
> >
> >
> > In your rush to contradict me Cindy you have completely missed the point
> > (certainly not a first.) I'm not trying to convince Charles that manga
is
> > good. I'm simply trying to convince him that passing judgment on others
> > because they happen to like manga is wrong.
>
> Charles has set his attitude like that a long time ago. Even before you
> joined the group. To me and the old timers, it's norm. It's like my
> talking about the Jewish culture. No, let me see ... better example is
> my talking about lawyers. It's each person's personality. I am sure
> you don't enjoy my trashing lawyer's, but I do enjoy Charles's trashing
> manga topics and fans.
I'm not new to slj Cindy. I've seen Charles' attitude regarding manga going
back to around 1998 when I first started posting to slj. But just because
I've seen it before doesn't mean that I don't disagree with it now as I did
then.
> >Charles not only hates manga he
> > looks down upon those who are interested in it and rants on and on about
> > what a waste of time it is, as if what is a waste of his time is
necessarily
> > a waste of everyone else's time.
>
> I think we need someone like Charles to balance it. I will call it
> newsgroup homeostasis. His opinion could be a negative feedback, but it
> is important sometimes.
>
> >That is just a ridiculous and arrogant way
> > of thinking. I could care less whether Charles likes manga. I don't even
> > like manga myself.
>
> You think so? If you do, I do love to see you getting mad.
Who said I'm mad? I can't think of anything that has ever happened in slj
that has made me angry. How about you?
Jeff
Louise Bremner
Someone rang me last night on the assumption that I would be delighted
to accept her offer of a volunteer job teaching local children how to
play Go in English....
No, I have absolutely no intention of accepting such an offer, but I'm
always interested in expanding my passive vocabulary, especially when
it's such a totally trivial word.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
necoandjeff
> The debate over High Art vs. Low Art has raged for years. There is
> sufficient justification for my opinion. Just the existence of the
> term "Low Art" ought to give you an idea that people generally
> agree on what "artforms" are worthy of disrespect.
I've said what I have to say on this and there's no point in repeating
myself. If you don't get it you don't get it. And I suspect you have
probably never gotten it. A few posts from me on slj isn't going to temper
an arrogant judgmental attitude that I suspect has been a lifetime in the
making.
Jeff
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>No, but you will be a peer of people who have experienced such things in
>their own childhood. And the rest of your post makes one assumption and one
>judgment. The assumption is, once again, that somehow EVERYONE should want
>to become peers of artists and writers.
>(snip)
Unfortunately this is a fruitless pursuit. This isn't really about
wider issues of judgment and experiences, it's about Charles'
irrational hatred of manga and fans of manga. This goes back quite a
while (it was already well established when I started reading the
group 4 or 5 years ago). Arguing this point with him is even less
productive as trying to argue the literacy question with Jed.
If Travers had asked the same question but with a different opening
(i.e. "I heard my host brother say this"), Charles probably would not
have responded.
-Chris
Phil Healey
> It's like my
> talking about the Jewish culture.
What do you know about Jewish culture?
Cindy
> Cindy wrote:
>
>
>>It's like my
>>talking about the Jewish culture.
>
>
> What do you know about Jewish culture?
>
Not today.
Phil Healey
> Not today.
Didn't think so.
Cindy
> Cindy wrote:
>
>
>>Not today.
>
>
> Didn't think so.
>
gokatteni
necoandjeff
news:atc670d6h3cgrc29s...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 20:20:07 GMT, "necoandjeff" <sp...@schrepfer.com>
> posted the following:
>
> >No, but you will be a peer of people who have experienced such things in
> >their own childhood. And the rest of your post makes one assumption and
one
> >judgment. The assumption is, once again, that somehow EVERYONE should
want
> >to become peers of artists and writers.
> >(snip)
>
> Unfortunately this is a fruitless pursuit. This isn't really about
> wider issues of judgment and experiences, it's about Charles'
> irrational hatred of manga and fans of manga. This goes back quite a
> while (it was already well established when I started reading the
> group 4 or 5 years ago). Arguing this point with him is even less
> productive as trying to argue the literacy question with Jed.
I know. I've seen and participated in the discussion many times but yet
somehow feel the urge now and then (usually when I'm trying to escape some
pressing deadline) to engage anyway.
Jeff
Phil Healey
> gokatteni
You're going out catting tonight?
Cindy
> Cindy wrote:
>
>
>>gokatteni
>
>
> You're going out catting tonight?
>
Wait until I am in the mood, OK?
necoandjeff
Phil Healey
> Wait until I am in the mood, OK?
I've got to wait until you're in the mood to go catting?
Cindy
> Cindy wrote:
>
>
>>Wait until I am in the mood, OK?
>
>
> I've got to wait until you're in the mood to go catting?
>
Suddenly, I am in the mood for bashing American lawyers. You wanna join me?
Travers Naran
>
> You're still missing the point. You will never be a peer of little kids playing
> takochuu, no matter what you do. It's too late now. But if you read about the
> arts or literature, you can become peers with artists and writers. This isn't
> just about me. The world is a dumber, stupider place because of people
> who read manga.
Charles, I bear no ill will to you, but you may want to think about how
people perceive you and your point of view with posts like this.
rose
Cindy wrote:
>
>
> >>Wait until I am in the mood, OK?
> >
> >
> > I've got to wait until you're in the mood to go catting?
> >
>
> Suddenly, I am in the mood for bashing American lawyers.
大爆！！
> You wanna join me?
Not me. I won a lawsuit recently. Thanks to my lawyer. :)
□■ <:３ ）～
■楽猫 <:３ ）～
Sean Holland
wrote on 4/6/04 12:31 PM:
ay to spend his time.
>
> Too bad for manga fans, but I like Charles's stubborn belief about
> manga. That makes "Charles" indeed. I never hope Charles is convinced
> by manga fans or lawyers. I always want Charles to be against manga and
> trash it whenever he talks about it. That makes him stand out and makes
> him cool.
Charles? "Cool"? Interesting usage.
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
pantssea...@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
Sean Holland
sp...@schrepfer.com wrote on 4/6/04 1:25 PM:
> I could care less whether Charles likes manga.
Really? Myself, I couldn't.
Sean Holland
mat...@hawaii.edu wrote on 4/6/04 1:49 PM:
(snip)
> "Wheel of Fortune" often comes up with answers I've never heard of
> before too, nowadays. Do you suppose (shudder) I'm out of it?
>
> Bart
>
Not a chance. But the rest of the world is increasingly becoming out of it,
I have noticed.
Sean Holland
com.hotmail@psa_healey wrote on 4/6/04 3:16 PM:
> mirror wrote:
>
>> Nothing you research and learn is trivial. Nothing.
>
> Everything you research and learn is trivial. Everything.
Sturgeon's Law.
Sean Holland
sp...@schrepfer.com wrote on 4/6/04 4:17 PM:
Impossible. He's a Buddhist. You must be misreading him.
Sean Holland
tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca wrote on 4/6/04 6:36 PM:
There might be something in what Charles says. He certainly gets dumber and
stupider when the subject of manga comes up.
Chris Kern
<tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> posted the following:
>Charles, I bear no ill will to you, but you may want to think about how
>people perceive you and your point of view with posts like this.
muri muri muri. Or "arienee" as young children might say.
-Chris
Charles Eicher
says...
Au contraire, it is you who is being judgemental and arrogant, with your
anti-intellectual bias. You are apparently unable to discern any difference
between being judgemental and being discriminating. No, not discriminating in
the sense of prejudice and bias, in the sense of being able to assign the proper
worth to things. Discrimination means we can judge that a diet of candy isn't
good for you and a diet with vegetables is preferable. We discriminate between
things all the time. For example, it is easy to discrminate between literacy and
illiteracy, it is better to be able to read. Manga is a form of communication
originally intended for illiterate people. It makes you stupid just by looking
at it. This is something I learned from direct observation, it isn't just a
prejudice, I judged it after seeing what happens to manga readers. I've seen it
happen time after time.
Let me tell you a long story about the first manga otaku I ever met.
When I started taking Japanese, the classes were full of Business and Comp Sci
majors, plus a few karate or aikido practitioners. These students all had
practical goals in studying Japanese, either for professional reasons or to help
them understand their favorite sport. However, there was this ONE guy.. he was
an older guy, a couple of years older than me. He used to be in the Army in
Japan, where apparently he developed a taste for pornographic manga. Actually,
"taste" is too mild a word for it, "obsession" is more like it. Let's call him
"O" since I won't publicly malign him by name.
O was seriously bent. His particular method of study was like everything he did,
obsessive. Everywhere he went, he was constantly scribbling pages and pages full
of kanji practice, which he left behind when he was done. We could never figure
out why he didn't just toss them in the trash, the best we could figure was that
he wanted to be SEEN practicing kanji, he was showing off. But despite his
desire to be known as teacher's pet, he was completely incompetent at Japanese.
You could ask him a basic question that any 1st year student could answer
easily, like "ima nanji desu ka" and he would respond with a complete non
sequitur like "daijoubu." O was completely hopeless at Japanese, yet he aspired
to become a Japanese instructor, and was enrolled in the graduate program in
Japanese pedagogy. Everyone tried to dissuade him from this foolish goal, our
program in pedagogy was almost entirely designed for native speakers, since of
course everyone would prefer a native speaker as their instructor. Only a few
Americans ever got their degree in pedagogy, and they all lived in Japan for
years, and were near native fluency. Still, those Americans were some of my
favorite instructors, since they knew how hard it was to acquire Japanese as a
second language, and knew what particular problems we would encounter, since
they had encountered them in their own studies.
Anyway. I first encountered O in my 3rd year class. It was his 3rd attempt at
passing the class. He kept flunking and could not get past that level, and even
then, the teachers were being kind to him by even allowing him to get past 2nd
year. And it was his own damn fault he kept flunking. Nobody wanted to be paired
up with him for in-class practice, you actually got WORSE when practicing with
him than if you had no practice at all. You should have seen how everyone in the
class always tried to sit across the room from him, for fear of being put
together with him in drills. But that was only the most superficial reason for
his complete and total ostracism.
O had the incredibly annoying habit of following you around like a puppy dog if
you even said hello. I remember one day when he asked me if I had a spare
pencil, he'd lost his, so I loaned him one, and he followed me around the campus
until I went into my next class, actually following me into a bookstore and
through the checkout line and back out of the store to class. But that wasn't
what was so annoying, it was what he SAID during his follow-alongs, something he
was notorious for. He continuously lectured every single person who would listen
to him about rorikon, his warped conception of nihonjin's attitudes towards
sexuality and how pedophilia was the social norm, and how this was expressed in
manga. It was always a short trip from "can I borrow a pencil" to "check out
this cool porno manga I have with me." O must have lived an isolated existence,
since everyone knew about his particular kink, and thus he was even more
determined to get people to listen to him upon the least little sign of
interaction, such as saying "hello."
But I am barely getting started with the story here. I won a scholarship to go
to school in Japan after my 3rd year. O heard about my award, and decided HE was
going to enroll at the same school. I was crushed when I learned he was
accepted, I was hoping for a semester of study without his unwanted presence. I
was even more devastated when I took the placement test and he was assigned to
the same class as ME. Apparently his superior kanji skills, combined with my
poor listening comprehension due to my as-yet-undiagnosed partial deafness, had
conspired to put me below my desired level, and to put him above his deserved
level. I argued vehemently with the school that I deserved to be put one grade
higher, but they absolutely refused since we had both just completed the same
grade level at the same school (nevermind that I got an A and he barely scraped
by with a C).
Now it was impossible to escape O's horrible influence. O continued his usual
level of poor classroom performance. It was amazing how quickly people adopted
the same strategies I had seen in my US classes, sitting as far away as
possible, trying to avoid his follow-alongs after classes. I saw several
students YELL at him after he showed them smutty manga, telling him to NEVER
talk to them ever EVER again.
But it gets worse. I still vividly recall one evening, I was going out to dinner
with another student, a beautiful French woman. Well, let's be accurate, it was
a date. As we met up after school and walked off into the sunset, we both turned
around corner and there was O. We tried to ignore him but he started to follow
along. Then he started describing how excited he was with his latest
acquisition, he had just been shopping, and he began pulling smutty manga out of
his backpack and trying to get us to look at them, and began his sicko
theorizing about how pedophilia is socially acceptable in Japan. I blew my
stack. I stopped cold, and started YELLING at him, here we are IN Japan, and
you're telling me what it IS LIKE in Japan? Are you FUCKING BLIND? I don't need
YOU to tell me what it's like in Japan, I'm IN JAPAN. And I DON'T want to hear
about your favorite hentai manga, ESPECIALLY when I'm on a date and the woman is
standing right next to me. But incredibly, O did not understand. We hastily
walked off, and O continued to follow us. I turned around and told him as
directly as possible, GO AWAY. We are going somewhere that YOU are NOT going.
You are NOT invited. Leave NOW.
Well, that little encounter cast a pall over the evening, we were both so
irritated, I think I drank a full liter of sake, and my friend almost as much,
so you can imagine how well that date went, and the ensuing hangover. My friend
and I had taiko lessons the next day, fortunately I brought enough earplugs for
both of us or we'd never have been able to tolerate it.
People in the school used to come up to me and ask me what was O's problem. I
told them nobody knew, but advised them to just avoid him completely. I could
continue with the horrors of being stuck in school in Japan with O, but I'll
stop there, or I'll go on all night. And there is oh so much more of the tale
left to be told. Here is where it starts to all come together.
When I came back to the US and enrolled in 4th year, there was O again, sitting
in the classroom with nobody willing to sit near him. I couldn't stand it
anymore. I bemoaned my situation to another TA, and he told me the whole pitiful
backstory of O's Japanese studies that had occurred before I got stuck in class
with him on his 3rd attempt at 3rd year.
O was on the grad school teacher's track, and had to complete a Practicum in the
Education Department. He had to spend 1 month teaching Japanese in a local
elementary school. On his first attempt at Practicum, he wasn't really up to the
task, since he had already flunked 3rd year and was well on his way to flunking
it a second time. But apparently they decided that even a 2nd year-level student
could teach 2nd graders. He was responsible for creating a lesson plan and
delivering the lessons as one of the professors graded his performance, and
suitability for passing his teaching certificate. And then something
astonishing, but probably not unexpected happened. O's lesson plan used manga to
illustrate the language, but he departed from the approved plan, and started
putting up hentai manga on the overhead projector. You can just imagine how the
shit hit the fan when the administrators heard O showed pornographic pedophilic
comics to 7 year old kids. O was threatened with arrest, but escaped the harsh
fate he deserved, he was merely expelled from the Japanese program.
It took him O a couple of years to beg his way back into the program, and he
resumed with another attempt at 3rd year, that's when I met him. O was
determined to straighten up and fly right, at least when the teachers were
watching. But O was still obsessed with hentai manga as ever, and tried to show
it to everyone, as I have already described.
O finally managed to get through 3rd year, and the Japanese program was anxious
to get rid of him, even if it meant graduation. So O got another chance at
Practicum. The eagle eyes of the professors and administrators watched his every
move. O's lesson plan received extra scrutiny, and the manga he decided to use
were examined for the slightest hint of purient content. O managed to get
through two classes, and then he got caught after class privately showing hentai
manga to 7 year old kids, right on school grounds. This time, O was expelled
from the program permanently. He never got his degree, nor his teaching
certificate. And the world of k-12 education dodged a bullet. The last time I
saw O, he was wearing a McDonalds uniform, riding a bicycle on his way to work.
But I heard he was elected President of the local manga society, so I assume he
was living a happy life, as the revered and respected King of the Otaku.
The moral of this story is that some people are prepared to throw away their
lives for their obsession with junk. O sacrificed years of college studies and
his intended career, and untold sums of money because of his obsession.
Obviously few people are as truly demented as O. But the average manga reader is
only different from O in the degree of obsession, the difference is merely in
quantity, not quality. Manga appeals to peoples' baser instincts, it rots your
mind. You deserve something better to read.
Charles Eicher
Let me clarify that point. You like manga so YOU are personally making the world
dumber and stupider, starting with this little corner of usenet. We used to talk
about useful, practical things like wa vs. ga and verb conjugation before the
otaku began dominating Japanese language studies, and now it's all about
octopussing and chocolate bars.
Chris Kern
(snip incredibly long and largely irrelevant story)
So is that why you hate manga so much? That person?
Like it or not, there are people on this group who both (a) enjoy
reading manga, and (b) have actually attained considerable proficiency
in the language. Some of those people have actually learned useful
things from manga.
>But the average manga reader is
>only different from O in the degree of obsession, the difference is merely in
>quantity, not quality. Manga appeals to peoples' baser instincts, it rots your
>mind. You deserve something better to read.
We deserve much better to read than your tiresome rants about manga.
You are too arrogant to be reasoned with, so I will not waste time
typing out a long refutation of your "points".
-Chris
Charles Eicher
>
>
>(snip incredibly long and largely irrelevant story)
I think you mistyped "largely representative"
>So is that why you hate manga so much? That person?
That person is the embodiment of manga readers, the President
of the local manga society. He is a pervert who belongs in
jail, but to otaku, he's a god.
>Like it or not, there are people on this group who both (a) enjoy
>reading manga, and (b) have actually attained considerable proficiency
>in the language.
Impossible. I've known dozens and dozens of manga fans and
not one single one of them ever attained even a modest
level of Japanese proficiency. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
I'll accept a passing grade at JPLT L2 as "considerable
proficiency."
>Some of those people have actually learned useful
>things from manga.
Useful to WHO, other manga readers?
>>But the average manga reader is
>>only different from O in the degree of obsession, the difference is merely in
>>quantity, not quality. Manga appeals to peoples' baser instincts, it rots your
>>mind. You deserve something better to read.
>
>We deserve much better to read than your tiresome rants about manga.
But you enjoy them so much, or you wouldn't respond.
>You are too arrogant to be reasoned with, so I will not waste time
>typing out a long refutation of your "points".
Because you can't refute them. Prove to me that there are NOT
people who have thrown away their lives over manga. And then
I'll tell you about Seito Sakakibara.
Cindy
> (snip incredibly long and largely irrelevant story)
>
> So is that why you hate manga so much? That person?
No, Charles has numerous experiences with bad manga readers. Do you
remember his episode of the panty guy? If he believes that manga is bad
for you, let him express it. In fact, when I was in school in Japan,
all teachers taught class not to engage with manga reading because it
would steal study time. Some teacher told us that reading manga would
make you stupid (now I can see the point of it, thanks to Charles).
However, we did it anyway.
> Like it or not, there are people on this group who both (a) enjoy
> reading manga, and (b) have actually attained considerable proficiency
> in the language. Some of those people have actually learned useful
> things from manga.
If you believe so, you got to prove it to Charles like testimonial just
like Charles spent time in typing his anecdote.
> We deserve much better to read than your tiresome rants about manga.
I think his rants are one(s) of the highlights of this newsgroup.
> You are too arrogant to be reasoned with, so I will not waste time
> typing out a long refutation of your "points".
However, maybe someday, you will agree with him.
Cindy
んじゃ、負けたら仲間になるの？
Kevin Wayne Williams
> Prove to me that there are NOT
> people who have thrown away their lives over manga.
When did that become the point? Is your logic so poor that you see
"Prove there are not people who have thrown away their lives over manga"
and "Prove that all people who enjoy manga never achieve Japanese
proficiency" as identical statements?
KWW
rose
Cindy wrote:
>
> rose wrote:
> > Not me. I won a lawsuit recently. Thanks to my lawyer. :)
>
> んじゃ、負けたら仲間になるの？
ああ～そうかも。。（爆
□■ <:３ ）～
■楽猫 <:３ ）～
Travers Naran
> In article <iWIcc.5150$mn3.4736@clgrps13>, Travers Naran says...
>>
>>Charles, I bear no ill will to you, but you may want to think about how
>>people perceive you and your point of view with posts like this.
>
> Let me clarify that point. You like manga so YOU are personally making
> the world dumber and stupider, starting with this little corner of
> usenet. We used to talk about useful, practical things like wa vs. ga
> and verb conjugation before the otaku began dominating Japanese language
> studies, and now it's all about octopussing and chocolate bars.
Those conversations still happen, and otaku do not dominate Japanese
language studies (as you well know). This newsgroup is 90% about the
language and about 9% off-topic posts of varying degrees. Actual
discussion about manga takes up, what, less than 1% of the discussion on
this group? That's dominating?? I don't comment on the language threads
because I'm too busy reading them and learning, and most of the questions
I have at this point are easily answered in textbooks or from my teacher.
I think I've posted a grand total of 3 manga or anime related questions to
this group. Most of my posts have been about dictionaries/textbooks,
listening practice, learning kanji, etc. So again, where do you get off
with "dominating"? You have no facts to back you up.
Trying to practice ethnic cleansing by keeping otaku out just makes you
look immature. You're looking more and more like the "boys" at the comic
book store who rant about those "movie fans" who start buying their
favorite comic books.
I don't care what you say or think about me, but why drag yourself "down"
to my level with these attacks?
Charles Eicher
says...
Nobody said they were identical, except you. I never even made that
second statement in the form you wrote it.
Chris said he knew manga fans with advanced proficiency. I doubted
him and said that manga fans never attain advanced proficiency, and
challenged him to prove otherwise.
I said some manga fans were prepared to throw their lives away for
their obsession. Chris said he wouldn't rebut me. I said he couldn't
rebut me because there obviously are people who have thrown it all
away because of their obsessive hobby.
OK, are we straight now?
Chris Kern
the following:
>In article <25p67096vnvk7pvbm...@4ax.com>, Chris Kern says...
>>Like it or not, there are people on this group who both (a) enjoy
>>reading manga, and (b) have actually attained considerable proficiency
>>in the language.
>
>Impossible. I've known dozens and dozens of manga fans and
>not one single one of them ever attained even a modest
>level of Japanese proficiency. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
>I'll accept a passing grade at JPLT L2 as "considerable
>proficiency."
We'll see if I pass JLPT 1 this December. Has Paul Blay passed L2?
It depends a little bit on your definition of "manga fan", though.
>>Some of those people have actually learned useful
>>things from manga.
>
>Useful to WHO, other manga readers?
Manga contains plenty of standard vocabulary and grammatical patterns,
not just slang and colloquialisms.
>>You are too arrogant to be reasoned with, so I will not waste time
>>typing out a long refutation of your "points".
>
>Because you can't refute them. Prove to me that there are NOT
>people who have thrown away their lives over manga.
That was not one of your points. Of course there are people who have
become obsessed with manga to a point of having an adverse effect on
their lives (even ruining their lives completely). But the vast
majority of manga fans are not that obsessive, and the experiences of
Mr. O and others like him are not relevant.
I don't fully understand what you are trying to get at comparing
"standard" manga fans to the Mr. O in your story.
> And then
>I'll tell you about Seito Sakakibara.
Picking out single cases of crazy people who happened to be manga fans
does not support your assertion that manga has a deliterious effect on
the lives of everyone who reads it.
-Chris
Phil Healey
> Trying to practice ethnic cleansing by keeping otaku out just makes you
> look immature.
Oh no, now the otaku are an ethnicity.
By the way, you can learn a lot about how the (now historical) way the
Japanese loan-shark industry works through 難波金融道.
Phil Healey
> Picking out single cases of crazy people who happened to be manga fans
> does not support your assertion that manga has a deliterious effect on
> the lives of everyone who reads it.
Leonardo Davinci fucked 14-year-old boys.
Charles Eicher
Travers Naran says...
>
>On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 19:06:44 -0700, Charles Eicher wrote:
>
>> In article <iWIcc.5150$mn3.4736@clgrps13>, Travers Naran says...
>>>
>>>Charles, I bear no ill will to you, but you may want to think about how
>>>people perceive you and your point of view with posts like this.
>>
>> Let me clarify that point. You like manga so YOU are personally making
>> the world dumber and stupider, starting with this little corner of
>> usenet. We used to talk about useful, practical things like wa vs. ga
>> and verb conjugation before the otaku began dominating Japanese language
>> studies, and now it's all about octopussing and chocolate bars.
>
>Those conversations still happen, and otaku do not dominate Japanese
>language studies (as you well know). This newsgroup is 90% about the
>language and about 9% off-topic posts of varying degrees. Actual
>discussion about manga takes up, what, less than 1% of the discussion on
>this group? That's dominating??
At the time of your post, the most active thread was off-topic stuff
about basketball, alongside a thread about manga in English. That
thread seemed to have sufficient warnings about not using manga
as a primary language study source so I left it alone. But it will go
on and on.
The difference between my last thread and yours is demonstrative.
I asked about using Japanese telephone books. You asked about
a little children's game. If you ever went to Japan, which would you
be more likely to need knowledge of, a phone book, or takochuu?
If you want to look a little closer, let's examine a post I recently
made entitled Ethnoastronomy. It got one response, from Bart,
who tersely said something like "Ah, interesting. Thanks" and he
needed say nothing else because we both knew how great the
content on that page was, because we both read it. But I gave
no indication that the site contained many fascinating things
about ancient Japanese calendars, which seemed to be entirely
useless facts, until I stumbled across the chart that explained
how the days of the week were named after the names of the
planets, as is common in many cultures. After more than a
decade of Japanese studies, I had never learned that fact, and
I actually still have trouble remembering the orders of the days
of the week unless I'm in Japan and actively using them daily.
I read it and thought, gee, if only my 1st year teacher had told
me about this planets-days of the week thing, I'd have nailed
it the first time I learned it.
So what's going to be more useful to your Japanese studies,
knowing the days of the week and their etymology as an aid to
memorization, or how to do takochuu?
>I don't comment on the language threads
>because I'm too busy reading them and learning, and most of the questions
>I have at this point are easily answered in textbooks or from my teacher.
I comment on language threads despite my being too busy, because I
feel I owe something to the students that follow me, even the stupid ones.
If I can make thinks easier for them, it is my duty. And the best way to
reinforce one's own learning is by teaching. I'm not just writing because
I like to see my words in print. Perhaps one day my service on your
behalf might even speed your learning. But probably you'll just waste the
time I saved you by reading manga.
>I think I've posted a grand total of 3 manga or anime related questions to
>this group. Most of my posts have been about dictionaries/textbooks,
>listening practice, learning kanji, etc. So again, where do you get off
>with "dominating"? You have no facts to back you up.
It's been worse at some times than it is now, but only because the otaku
newsgroups have learned that this newsgroup isn't receptive to manga
questions. This is a sci.* group and is intended for scholarly discussion
of Japanese language topics.
>Trying to practice ethnic cleansing by keeping otaku out just makes you
>look immature.
Otaku are an ethnic group? Now I've heard it all. But the otaku I know
sure could use cleansing, they need daily contact with soap and water,
not just monthly contact.
>You're looking more and more like the "boys" at the comic
>book store who rant about those "movie fans" who start buying their
>favorite comic books.
I have no idea what you're talking about. You're like the otaku who are
unable to explain everyday life events without reference to comics. You
are losing touch with reality.
>I don't care what you say or think about me, but why drag yourself "down"
>to my level with these attacks?
I'm doing it for your own good. You're up to your ass in quicksand and
you can't even see it. It's not too late for you, and I've thrown you a rope.
If I get a little sand on me, at least I'm not going down with you. But I will
pull you up if you ever decide to tie the rope around your waist.
Travers Naran
[Clipped Story of 'O']
If I built up a whole thing like that based on one person I met, I'd punch
anyone in the face who liked B5. On the other hand, based on how you're
behaving in this thread, I could come to the conclusion that all Japanese
Studies students are anal, unjustifiably arrogant, unlikeable, brittle
people who think the world revolves around them just because they can speak
another language.
I don't want to think that about you, Charles. That's why I'm even
replying instead of just killfiling you. You know stuff, and you've
provided useful help (even with this original thread starter). I'd hate to
think you're really just a pathological case that polite company should avoid.
As I said, I don't care if you don't like me and killfile me. I'd just
like you to develop some perspective because you're just sounding like a
raving lunatic right about now.
Charles Eicher
>
>Chris Kern wrote:
>
>> Picking out single cases of crazy people who happened to be manga fans
>> does not support your assertion that manga has a deliterious effect on
>> the lives of everyone who reads it.
>
>Leonardo Davinci fucked 14-year-old boys.
No, actually Leonardo was acquitted of homosexual conduct with
a 17 year old boy. But whether it happened or not, Leonardo never
cut the head off a 12 year old kid and hung it on the gate of his
junior high school, like the otaku Seito Sakakibara. Leonardo did
dissect human corpses, documenting them with scientific accuracy,
which lead to the greatest advancements in medicine of his era.
necoandjeff
news:BC98AC7C.B264%seanh...@pants.telus.net...
> in article JmEcc.33580$Fp6....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com, necoandjeff
at
> sp...@schrepfer.com wrote on 4/6/04 1:25 PM:
>
> > I could care less whether Charles likes manga.
>
> Really? Myself, I couldn't.
No, I'll allow room for a little less care, but not much.
Jeff
Travers Naran
> Picking out single cases of crazy people who happened to be manga fans
> does not support your assertion that manga has a deliterious effect on
> the lives of everyone who reads it.
Considering the number of people supposedly affected by Marilyn Manson,
Judas Priest, etc. to do evil, heinous acts, or violence inspired by TV, or
rape inspired by violent porn, I'd say manga has a surprisingly low rate of
negative behavoir.
He's also assuming most manga is perverted child porn. Hell, I don't even
like the hentai stuff...
necoandjeff
news:HrKcc.85544$K91.189310@attbi_s02...
Rose に負けた人は仲間になるんじゃない？
Travers Naran
Much nice, more lucid post. Thank you.
> The difference between my last thread and yours is demonstrative.
> I asked about using Japanese telephone books. You asked about
> a little children's game. If you ever went to Japan, which would you
> be more likely to need knowledge of, a phone book, or takochuu?
Takochuu because every single book about everyday Japanese culture I've
read (non-manga related) makes derisive comments about the phone book. One
book went so far as to claim no self-respecting Japanese ever uses the
phone book but uses some form of introduction service. I don't know the
title, because I didn't bother buying it.
> If you want to look a little closer, let's examine a post I recently
> made entitled Ethnoastronomy. It got one response, from Bart,
> who tersely said something like "Ah, interesting. Thanks" and he
> needed say nothing else because we both knew how great the
> content on that page was, because we both read it. But I gave
> no indication that the site contained many fascinating things
> about ancient Japanese calendars, which seemed to be entirely
> useless facts, until I stumbled across the chart that explained
> how the days of the week were named after the names of the
> planets, as is common in many cultures. After more than a
> decade of Japanese studies, I had never learned that fact, and
> I actually still have trouble remembering the orders of the days
> of the week unless I'm in Japan and actively using them daily.
> I read it and thought, gee, if only my 1st year teacher had told
> me about this planets-days of the week thing, I'd have nailed
> it the first time I learned it.
It was kind of interesting, but I just bookmarked it. I didn't read
through the site at the time, so thus I didn't reply. That often happens.
In other newsgroups, I've posted very informative articles and only found
other people read it when it gets reposted in other newsgroups. So just
because no one replied doesn't mean it's not interesting.
> So what's going to be more useful to your Japanese studies,
> knowing the days of the week and their etymology as an aid to
> memorization, or how to do takochuu?
But I already knew that. I took History of Mathematics and got an A+ on my
paper describing the evolution of the calendar and how other cultures
adapted to it or came up with very similar schemes. China & Japan were one
of the cultures I touched on. You see, I collect "useless" trivia from the
breadth of my other interests & education. Manga happens to be something I
like, and in a couple years when my vocabulary has expanded beyond 200
words, I'd like to try more literature beyond manga. But in the mean time,
I'm enjoying myself and I'm glad to know what takochuu are.
I didn't bring it up before because frankly, I've met far too many people
in my year of learning Japanese who like to boast about what they can do
and what they're going to do. E.g., "Oh yeah, I'm going to get my JPT1,
work in Japan for a year, then become a Japanese lit major and become this
total expert about Japanese culture." I'm not here to brag, I'm just here
to learn. :-)
> I comment on language threads despite my being too busy, because I
> feel I owe something to the students that follow me, even the stupid ones.
> If I can make thinks easier for them, it is my duty. And the best way to
> reinforce one's own learning is by teaching. I'm not just writing because
> I like to see my words in print. Perhaps one day my service on your
> behalf might even speed your learning. But probably you'll just waste the
> time I saved you by reading manga.
Among other things, yes. On the other hand, when I *can* respond, I have.
E.g., the learning kanji thread. I'm _still_ getting the hang of ga/wa,
so I have nothing useful to add yet. I wasn't questioning anyone else's
contribution, only explaining why it might seem like I'm only posting anime
& manga questions.
> It's been worse at some times than it is now, but only because the otaku
> newsgroups have learned that this newsgroup isn't receptive to manga
> questions. This is a sci.* group and is intended for scholarly discussion
> of Japanese language topics.
To a certain degree. Most sci.* groups respect their charter in the
breach. (Which is probably why I gave up on most sci.* groups...)
>>Trying to practice ethnic cleansing by keeping otaku out just makes you
>>look immature.
>
> Otaku are an ethnic group? Now I've heard it all. But the otaku I know
> sure could use cleansing, they need daily contact with soap and water,
> not just monthly contact.
I used to have a car washing brush with rotating scrubbers. It also had an
extension arm, so it can be arranged. At any rate, it's just an expression
now. :-)
>>You're looking more and more like the "boys" at the comic
>>book store who rant about those "movie fans" who start buying their
>>favorite comic books.
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about. You're like the otaku who are
> unable to explain everyday life events without reference to comics. You
> are losing touch with reality.
No, I'm trying to point out to you what you're looking like in this
discussion. You're not winning me over with your vitriol. Heck, you're
not even making me angry. Hell, I'm not even insulted! So how effective
are your arguments if I don't even feel insulted?
>>I don't care what you say or think about me, but why drag yourself "down"
>>to my level with these attacks?
>
> I'm doing it for your own good. You're up to your ass in quicksand and
> you can't even see it. It's not too late for you, and I've thrown you a rope.
> If I get a little sand on me, at least I'm not going down with you. But I will
> pull you up if you ever decide to tie the rope around your waist.
Well, if I *was* in quicksand, I would appreciate it, but I'm not. I
figure I have at least 1.5 more years to go before I can really begin
tackling literature, and even then, I'm into the popular culture so I
probably won't be emersing myself in the Tale of Genji anytime soon (which
I gather is the Japanese equivalent of reading Shakespeare).
Charles Eicher
>
>On 6 Apr 2004 19:41:46 -0700, Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> posted
>the following:
>
>>In article <25p67096vnvk7pvbm...@4ax.com>, Chris Kern says...
>>>Like it or not, there are people on this group who both (a) enjoy
>>>reading manga, and (b) have actually attained considerable proficiency
>>>in the language.
>>
>>Impossible. I've known dozens and dozens of manga fans and
>>not one single one of them ever attained even a modest
>>level of Japanese proficiency. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
>>I'll accept a passing grade at JPLT L2 as "considerable
>>proficiency."
>
>We'll see if I pass JLPT 1 this December.
You won't. Don't take it personally, it's not a comment on your
affection for manga either. I know students with an MA in Japanese
Pedagogy plus a teaching certificate, plus 5 years living in Japan,
plus an entire year in a study group prepping for L1, and he flunked.
You're not even close to that level yet. L1 is very hard.
> Has Paul Blay passed L2?
>
>It depends a little bit on your definition of "manga fan", though.
Ok it's my terms on this. You will have to submit an original JLPT
certificate, an itemized listing plus a photograph of your manga
holdings, and an essay about your special relationship to manga.
Even then I may still have difficulty assessing the damage to your
learning curve. You might not be sufficiently otaku enough to have
ruined your studies, merely interested enough in it to have delayed
your studies.
>
>>>Some of those people have actually learned useful
>>>things from manga.
>>
>>Useful to WHO, other manga readers?
>
>Manga contains plenty of standard vocabulary and grammatical patterns,
>not just slang and colloquialisms.
So do textbooks. So do books. Manga is about 1% text, books are
about 100% text.
>
>>>You are too arrogant to be reasoned with, so I will not waste time
>>>typing out a long refutation of your "points".
>>
>>Because you can't refute them. Prove to me that there are NOT
>>people who have thrown away their lives over manga.
>
>That was not one of your points.
That was the WHOLE DAMN POINT of the story of O.
>Of course there are people who have
>become obsessed with manga to a point of having an adverse effect on
>their lives (even ruining their lives completely). But the vast
>majority of manga fans are not that obsessive, and the experiences of
>Mr. O and others like him are not relevant.
You didn't read carefully enough. I asserted that O and the
"average" manga freak are EXACTLY the same, except in degree
of obsession. Nobody STARTS like O. They just END that way.
>I don't fully understand what you are trying to get at comparing
>"standard" manga fans to the Mr. O in your story.
Does a fish know water?
>
>> And then
>>I'll tell you about Seito Sakakibara.
>
>Picking out single cases of crazy people who happened to be manga fans
>does not support your assertion that manga has a deliterious effect on
>the lives of everyone who reads it.
I happen to believe that being a big fan of Pro Sports like Football makes
you stupid, but I notice that no Pro Sports fan ever cut off the head of a
little kid and hung it from the gate of his school. So I don't generally go
around ranting about Pro Sports fans. But there is something different
about manga otaku.
Charles Eicher
>
>Charles Eicher wrote:
>
>[Clipped Story of 'O']
>
>If I built up a whole thing like that based on one person I met, I'd punch
>anyone in the face who liked B5.
And that's just the FIRST otaku I knew. He was the PRESIDENT of the
local otaku group, you'd freak if I told you about the others. So this
isn't just based on ONE person, I have extensive experience with otaku.
>On the other hand, based on how you're
>behaving in this thread, I could come to the conclusion that all Japanese
>Studies students are anal, unjustifiably arrogant, unlikeable, brittle
>people who think the world revolves around them just because they can speak
>another language.
>
>I don't want to think that about you, Charles. That's why I'm even
>replying instead of just killfiling you. You know stuff, and you've
>provided useful help (even with this original thread starter). I'd hate to
>think you're really just a pathological case that polite company should avoid.
>
>As I said, I don't care if you don't like me and killfile me. I'd just
>like you to develop some perspective because you're just sounding like a
>raving lunatic right about now.
You ought to consider how you look to the world, when you
assert that someone is a lunatic, just because they have disdain
for your hobby.
Phil Healey
> No, actually Leonardo was acquitted of homosexual conduct with
> a 17 year old boy.
I said 14, not 17.
> But whether it happened or not, Leonardo never
> cut the head off a 12 year old kid and hung it on the gate of his
> junior high school, like the otaku Seito Sakakibara.
Oh yeah? Prove it, if you're so sure.
> Leonardo did
> dissect human corpses,
What a perv.
> documenting them with scientific accuracy,
Oh right like he had a computer. Or even a stethoscope.
Go ahead, pull the other one.
> which lead to the greatest advancements in medicine of his era.
I doubt that.
There have been serious artists who did bad things, who were morally
corrupt. Let's extrapolate from there.
Chris Kern
the following:
>In article <u00770hrqa7tqh9sf...@4ax.com>, Chris Kern says...
>>We'll see if I pass JLPT 1 this December.
>
>You won't. Don't take it personally, it's not a comment on your
>affection for manga either. I know students with an MA in Japanese
>Pedagogy plus a teaching certificate, plus 5 years living in Japan,
>plus an entire year in a study group prepping for L1, and he flunked.
>You're not even close to that level yet. L1 is very hard.
I am aware of the difficulty; I took last year's test from the
practice book and scored a 50% with no preperation or specific
studying. Maybe another 9 months in Japan and some studying of
specific elements of the test will be enough to get that extra 20% and
pass, or maybe it won't. Only time (and effort) will tell.
>>Manga contains plenty of standard vocabulary and grammatical patterns,
>>not just slang and colloquialisms.
>
>So do textbooks. So do books. Manga is about 1% text, books are
>about 100% text.
I'm not talking about using manga as a study aid -- I agree with you
entirely that manga should not be used as a substitute for textbooks.
Manga is best used as a leisure time activity in addition to studying.
>>That was not one of your points.
>
>That was the WHOLE DAMN POINT of the story of O.
Then we're back to the irrelevancy issue -- telling one specific story
of an otaku does not mean that no one should read manga.
>>Of course there are people who have
>>become obsessed with manga to a point of having an adverse effect on
>>their lives (even ruining their lives completely). But the vast
>>majority of manga fans are not that obsessive, and the experiences of
>>Mr. O and others like him are not relevant.
>
>You didn't read carefully enough. I asserted that O and the
>"average" manga freak are EXACTLY the same, except in degree
>of obsession. Nobody STARTS like O. They just END that way.
*How* are they "exactly the same"? Every manga fan exhibits
pedophilic tendencies?
-Chris
necoandjeff
No, I'm not being anti-intellectual at all. I may not be interested in
Japanese literature but I have my own weakness for the study of Japanese
history, study that got quite a boost from reading Manga Nihon no Rekishi, I
might add. And I have no beef with you being "discriminating" in your
tastes. I have the similar tendencies. But what you don't seem to be able to
see is that you are also being judgmental toward others. So what if someone
enjoys spending their time reading manga. First, nobody has said that we
must all spend every waking hour doing something "useful" and not doing
something that is merely "enjoyable" or "entertaining" and second, you have
no right to determine what is useful with respect to anyone other than
yourself.
> Let me tell you a long story about the first manga otaku I ever met.
So, to summarize, you hate manga because you blame a manga obsessed guy for
the fact that you didn't get laid on a date with a beautiful French woman...
Seriously, that's a horrible story, and I sympathize with you having to
suffer this guy, but surely you can see what a leap of logic it is to even
connect this story with you hatred of manga. Had "O" been obsessed with
photographic pornography instead, would your hatred be aimed at all of
photography as an art form?
Charles Eicher
>
>Chris Kern wrote:
>
>> Picking out single cases of crazy people who happened to be manga fans
>> does not support your assertion that manga has a deliterious effect on
>> the lives of everyone who reads it.
>
>Considering the number of people supposedly affected by Marilyn Manson,
>Judas Priest, etc. to do evil, heinous acts, or violence inspired by TV, or
>rape inspired by violent porn, I'd say manga has a surprisingly low rate of
>negative behavoir.
I never heard of MM or JP ever inspiring heinous acts. Dworkin's porn
and violence links are mostly discredited. I did hear about kids trying
to emulate stunts from MTV Jackass and setting themselves on fire.
At least they didn't harm anyone but themselves.
>He's also assuming most manga is perverted child porn. Hell, I don't even
>like the hentai stuff...
Don't draw that conclusion just from the story of one perv's obsession
with pedophile manga that I described. I think other styles of manga
are almost as bad. Don't you recall me describing Pokemon as teaching
kids about cockfighting?
Phil Healey
> Charles Eicher wrote:
>
>
>>And nobody ever won the
>>Nobel Prize in Literature for writing manga.
>
>
> And if they did, would you change your mind?
Hello? Was this question too difficult to answer?
Paul Blay
> We deserve much better to read than your tiresome rants about manga.
I've developed this incredibly flexible newsgroup filter system.
It's based on the concept of not reading posts I don't want to read.
You might want to try it some time ;-)
necoandjeff
> >Like it or not, there are people on this group who both (a) enjoy
> >reading manga, and (b) have actually attained considerable proficiency
> >in the language.
>
> Impossible. I've known dozens and dozens of manga fans and
> not one single one of them ever attained even a modest
> level of Japanese proficiency. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
> I'll accept a passing grade at JPLT L2 as "considerable
> proficiency."
But what do you consider a manga fan? As I said, I don't "like" manga today
in the sense that I don't run out and buy them or read them all the time,
but I can certainly attribute quite a bit of my Japanese knowledge -
ordinary conversation and a not very insignificant portion of my vocabulary
(particularly Japanese history vocabulary from reading Manga Nihon no
Rekishi) - from spending time reading manga. I used to read manga quite a
bit when I was hard core into studying. I read things like "Eri Doing" (it
was the only manga that was accessible to me at the time) and others like
Obake no Q Taro, etc. All very useful stuff. And I did quite well on JLPT1
about 10 years ago. Do I count?
> >You are too arrogant to be reasoned with, so I will not waste time
> >typing out a long refutation of your "points".
>
> Because you can't refute them. Prove to me that there are NOT
> people who have thrown away their lives over manga. And then
> I'll tell you about Seito Sakakibara.
Should we consider this to be a typical sample of your logic Charles?
Jeff
Paul Blay
Prove that there exists an X for which there are no people who have thrown
there lives away over X.
Paul Blay
Yup. Don't think I'll be passing JLPT 1 this year though - too much time
spent ill.
Chris Kern
<tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> posted the following:
> I
>probably won't be emersing myself in the Tale of Genji anytime soon (which
>I gather is the Japanese equivalent of reading Shakespeare).
Shakespeare is easier for English natives than Genji is for Japanese
natives.
-Chris
Charles Eicher
>>>That was not one of your points.
>>
>>That was the WHOLE DAMN POINT of the story of O.
>
>Then we're back to the irrelevancy issue -- telling one specific story
>of an otaku does not mean that no one should read manga.
Do you not understand what a "cautionary tale" is? Maybe I should
have told you about the VP of the otaku group. She was a JET and
spent a year in Japan. She told me she spent all her time either in
the classroom speaking english, or at home reading manga, and
that her Japanese skills had atrophied and now she was even worse
at Japanese than before she left. I asked her why she didn't just go
out on her own and walk around the city practicing her Japanese.
She told me she had to finish reading all her stacks of manga
before she left, since she couldn't afford to ship them home.
>>>Of course there are people who have
>>>become obsessed with manga to a point of having an adverse effect on
>>>their lives (even ruining their lives completely). But the vast
>>>majority of manga fans are not that obsessive, and the experiences of
>>>Mr. O and others like him are not relevant.
It is precisely relevant. Remember this guy is the president of
the otaku group and they all want to be just like him. Well, maybe
not the pedophile bit, but his level of obsession makes him
special to the group. All he wants is to be special, and recognized
as such.
>>
>>You didn't read carefully enough. I asserted that O and the
>>"average" manga freak are EXACTLY the same, except in degree
>>of obsession. Nobody STARTS like O. They just END that way.
>
>*How* are they "exactly the same"? Every manga fan exhibits
>pedophilic tendencies?
You're getting bogged down in this pedophile thing. Forget it.
Every manga fan gets a buzz from that "Look Ma, I'm reading
Japanese" effect. It is addictive, especially when reinforced by
pop culture that intensifies the feelings of specialness. It's like
being in a cult with self-reinforcing behavior modification. At
first, nobody realizes they're in a cult. Before they realize it,
they're out in the streets prosletyzing. Manga is the ideal media
for people with short attention spans and OCD, ADHD, etc. It
plays to their weaknesses, and makes them worse.
Phil Healey
> Yup. Don't think I'll be passing JLPT 1 this year though - too much time
> spent ill.
I think you mean "too much time spent illin' on slj, yo."
Chris Kern
Well, at least I understand what you're trying to say now.
-Chris
Phil Healey
> Shakespeare is easier for English natives than Genji is for Japanese
> natives.
Sure, if you're a Middle English otaku, maybe!
Chris Kern
<ra...@saotome.demon.co.uk> posted the following:
It's a tough decision. I feel like L2 is too easy but L1 is too
difficult -- there's such a *huge* difference between them that it's
hard to know what to do.
-Chris
Paul Blay
> Paul Blay wrote:
>
> > Yup. Don't think I'll be passing JLPT 1 this year though - too much time
> > spent ill.
>
> I think you mean "too much time spent illin' on slj, yo."
Sorry, wrong dialect. Try again in Berkshire.
Phil Healey
> Sorry, wrong dialect. Try again in Berkshire.
I speak Berkshire-Hathaway (http://tinyurl.com/2tyuj), but am not
familiar with Hathawayless Berkshire.
You really don't know what "illin'" means? Do you mean to say the US has
spent untold millions of thalers and almost 50 years and still failed
in its quest to blanket the earth with its warm pop culture duvet?
Miami Vice? Ring a bell? Beastie Boys? Big Mac? Steven Segal? Philip
Levine? Hilary? Hello?
Paul Blay
> Paul Blay wrote:
>
> > Sorry, wrong dialect. Try again in Berkshire.
>
> I speak Berkshire-Hathaway (http://tinyurl.com/2tyuj), but am not
> familiar with Hathawayless Berkshire.
>
> You really don't know what "illin'" means?
realised that it might well be from chillin).
> Do you mean to say the US has
> spent untold millions of thalers and almost 50 years and still failed
> in its quest to blanket the earth with its warm pop culture duvet?
Apparently so.
> Miami Vice?
Might have seen an episode once.
> Beastie Boys?
No.
> Big Mac?
Never eaten one.
> Steven Segal?
No.
> Philip Levine?
No.
> Hilary?
Clinton?
> Hello?
Sorry if I've just dented your world view there.
Old Man Caballo
Funny that I received this in my inbox today just as I was checking
out this thread:
http://www.rolomail.com/cgi-bin/sanadd.pl?103-0-136-salaryman-USD
Of special interest are the opinions expressed about the book by some
personalities at the bottom of the page.
Funny, funny indeed.
( and please refrain from flaming I do not hold any opinion about this
issue. I have never read manga nor know any otaku)
Old Man Caballo.
Sean Holland
ra...@saotome.demon.co.uk wrote on 4/6/04 11:57 PM:
Jeez, now you tell us. You mean I didn't have to read any of this thread so
far?
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
pantssea...@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
Sean Holland
nih...@paxonet.kom wrote on 4/6/04 8:44 PM:
> Charles Eicher wrote:
>
>> Prove to me that there are NOT
>> people who have thrown away their lives over manga.
>
> When did that become the point? Is your logic so poor that you see
> "Prove there are not people who have thrown away their lives over manga"
> and "Prove that all people who enjoy manga never achieve Japanese
> proficiency" as identical statements?
>
> KWW
>
I think all these damn liberal lefties should PROVE that Saddam didn't have
a death ray.