kokeshi dolls
Romain
hiragana form ‚±‚¯‚µ. Thank you. Bye! Romain.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Sean Holland
> Does anyone know if there're kanji to write "kokeshi"? I only know its
> hiragana form ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃつｱﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃつｯﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃつｵ. Thank you. Bye! Romain.
Your hiragana turn up as gobbledy-goop on my browser, but still... I checked in
two dictionaries (E-Dict and Kenkyusha Chujiten CD-ROM) and both only show
hiragana, so I guess that's the way it's usually written.
Ansm123
Sean Holland wrote in message <386B71BD...@islandnet.com>...
>Romain wrote:
>
>
>
It's usually written in hiragana, but my dictionary has a kanji
小芥子。
--
Annie
Jed Rothwell
(extinguish), but nobody wants to be reminded of that. Kokeshi were
originally fetishes offered to assuage guilt after infanticide or abortion.
- Jed
s_y...@my-deja.com
I had heard about this before and have actually believed it to this
day, but I just happened to find this site which is quite comprehensive
on what kokeshi is and seems to be very well-grounded. Unfortunately,
it's all in Japanese, but a part of it categorically denies any
possibilities of it being associated with infanticide or abortion.
http://village.infoweb.or.jp/~fwih4396/koq&a.htm
The author states that such allusions to the origin of kokeshi dolls
began to go around somewhere around 1970's, and never before. He even
points to a specific book which spread this negative fantasy throughout
the country.
He also mentions that the kokeshi was rather a symbol of a prayer for
affluence as well as being blessed with a child and its safe delivery,
which can be compared to the Easter Bunny in a Christian tradition.
This is not to deny that there were infanticide practices were not
there, particularly in the poverty-stricken northern area of Honshu way
back in history. What the writer is saying is that the verb "kesu" has
never been used to refer to killings of infants.
What dictionaries tell me is that "keshi" or 芥子 is short for
keshi-tsubu 芥子粒, or "poppy seeds," symbolic of anything small.
"Kokeshi" seems to come from "keshi-ningyou", and the "ko" in "kokeshi"
means "small," not "child."
Hope the quote from the web page come out fine to most of you.
Ｑ：こけしというものは「子を消す」という意味で作られた、という話を聞い
たことがあるのですが、水子の霊を慰めるためのもの、というのは本当ですか
？？（SIさん）
Ａ：これは戦前から昭和三十年代頃まではほとんど聞かなかった話ですが、昭
和四十年代頃から少しづつ言われるようになりました。誰が言い出したかはっ
きりしませんが私の記憶では、最初にこの説を目にしたのは詩人松永伍一の本
だったように思います。人形というのは感情移入が容易に行えるものなので、
形にならなかった我が子の形象として母がこれを求めるという哀切なイメージ
と、その底に貧しい東北の「間引き」という暗くどろどろとした怨念のような
ものが農民詩人の詩興を捕らえたのかもしれません。ややステロタイプな詩興
ですが・・。これが情緒的にうったえるところのある話なので、テレビのこけ
しの里訪問番組などでも、この基調でストーリーが組まれたりする事が往々に
してありました。つぎに、事実はどうかという点ですが、こけしという呼称は
もともと仙台周辺のごく一部で使われていたもので、福島では、でこ、きでこ
、でころこ（木偶系）、宮城南部では、きぼこ、きほほこ、おぼっこ（這子系
）、鳴子ではにんぎょ、きにんぎょう（人形系）と呼んでいました。仙台周辺
では大崎八幡などで売られた有名な張り子の赤けし（芥子人形）に対して木で
作った芥子（木芥子）あるいは小さな芥子人形（小芥子）の意でこけしが使わ
れたようです。語源的には「子消す」はどこを探しても有りません。また、仙
台の高橋五郎さんは東北では間引くことを、「おろぬぎ」「おりぬき」あるい
は「もどす」と言って「消す」という表現を使った例はないと言っています。
つまり、「子消す」というのは実際に使われたことのない、机上の創作用語と
いうことになります。さらに、こけしにまつわる習俗を見ても五穀豊饒を祈っ
た一種の再生儀礼である湯治（温泉に行く事）に深くかかわっており、むしろ
安産や子授け（豊饒と多産のアナロジー：復活祭の兎と同じ）に結びついてい
ます。水子とは１８０度逆の象徴です。したがって、歴史的には「子消す」が
こけしに結びつく事実も可能性もなく、この説は詩的な空想から生まれたフィ
クションが起源だと思います。
--
Sho
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jed Rothwell
<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:853lfg$tfq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The author states that such allusions to the origin of kokeshi dolls
> began to go around somewhere around 1970's, and never before. He even
> points to a specific book which spread this negative fantasy throughout
> the country.
I do not think so. I do not have my Japanese anthropology books handy, but I
remember when and where I head this derivation of the word "kokeshi." It was
during a lecture at Cornell University in 1974 by Robert Smith. I am sure
his sources predated the 1970s.He did a lot of his field work during the 40s
and 50s. He is a very careful scholar, although he could be wrong.
I do not like to play "remote-control amateur anthropology" without knowing
the facts of the case or reading this text closely, but I must note that
people in all cultures often deny this sort of thing. When a tradition is
rooted in what people now consider morbid, disgusting or embarrassing they
often look for alternative explanations for the tradition, and they
sometimes accept implausible ideas. I think the name "kokeshi" pretty much
speaks for itself. Similar fetishes are common in other cultures. The fact
that kokeshi were kept on the altar (butudan) with the tablets (ihai)
representing the dead is also evidence of their origin.
I'll have to have a closer look at the web page you referenced. Or I'll ask
Smith his source.
What we need is a nice fat, on-line guide to Japanese anthropology, plus a
copy of Martin's "Reference Grammar of Japanese," (Tuttle, 1988).
- Jed
s_y...@my-deja.com
"Jed Rothwell" <jedro...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> <s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:853lfg$tfq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I do not think so. I do not have my Japanese anthropology books
handy, but I
> remember when and where I head this derivation of the word "kokeshi."
It was
> during a lecture at Cornell University in 1974 by Robert Smith. I am
sure
> his sources predated the 1970s.He did a lot of his field work during
the 40s
> and 50s. He is a very careful scholar, although he could be wrong.
I did not bring this up to disprove you. Not having any idea of what
your previous message was based on, I threw it in in the hope that you
and other members of the group would be aware that there are other
explantions being made.
After I read this message of yours, I did a little more browsing, but
though the kokeshi-related sites are numerous, none of the others offer
as much information as the one I previously introduced. In fact, this
seemed to be the only one that is not *directly* linked with kokeshi
sales promotion or tourism business as a whole.
> I do not like to play "remote-control amateur anthropology" without
knowing
> the facts of the case or reading this text closely, but I must note
that
> people in all cultures often deny this sort of thing. When a
tradition is
> rooted in what people now consider morbid, disgusting or embarrassing
they
> often look for alternative explanations for the tradition, and they
> sometimes accept implausible ideas.
I understand all of this very well. In fact I do not deny that our
society has always been and is notoriously continuing to be one that is
very likely to muffle up whatever is disadvantageous or harmful to its
own image.
>I think the name "kokeshi" pretty much
> speaks for itself. Similar fetishes are common in other cultures. The
fact
> that kokeshi were kept on the altar (butudan) with the tablets (ihai)
> representing the dead is also evidence of their origin.
These could well be equally true, but at this point I find it difficult
to spontaneously go along with you. I'm wondering if whoever wanted to
cover up the shamefully brutal practices in the past did not also want
to shave off the name that goes with them, if the name itself was so
obviously telling. As for the customariness of a kokeshi being placed
with the ihai on the butudan, just because I personally have never seen
a sight as such, I cannot either support or disagree with your
assumption.
> I'll have to have a closer look at the web page you referenced. Or
> I'll ask Smith his source.
>
> What we need is a nice fat, on-line guide to Japanese anthropology,
plus a
> copy of Martin's "Reference Grammar of Japanese," (Tuttle, 1988).
Appreciate the effort to be taken. I don't think I have the skill or
knowledge to do any further study on this, but I'll be willing to
listen to what you have to say sometime in the future. :-)
Lei Tanabe
"Jed Rothwell" <jedro...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:855hmg$enm$1...@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net...
> > began to go around somewhere around 1970's, and never before. He even
> > points to a specific book which spread this negative fantasy throughout
> > the country.
>
I
> remember when and where I head this derivation of the word "kokeshi." It
was
> during a lecture at Cornell University in 1974 by Robert Smith. I am sure
> his sources predated the 1970s.He did a lot of his field work during the
40s
> and 50s. He is a very careful scholar, although he could be wrong.
>
knowing
> the facts of the case or reading this text closely, but I must note that
> people in all cultures often deny this sort of thing. When a tradition is
> rooted in what people now consider morbid, disgusting or embarrassing they
> often look for alternative explanations for the tradition, and they
> speaks for itself. Similar fetishes are common in other cultures. The fact
> that kokeshi were kept on the altar (butudan) with the tablets (ihai)
> representing the dead is also evidence of their origin.
I heard this 'kokeshi' thingy before, but I didn't think much of it.
I suppose that's one of those stories. Some people try hard to see some
hidden meanings in nothing.
It might have been used to symbolize unborn babies by some people, but I
don't think that's the origin of 'kokeshi'.
'Kokeshi' is merely a folk toy originated in the Edo period.
The name 'kokeshi', in addition to Sho's explanation, seems derived from its
shape similar to 'keshi-bouzu', a poppy seedpod.
I've never seen 'kokeshi' kept in butsudan.
Lei
Michael Cash
(trim)
>
>What dictionaries tell me is that "keshi" or 芥子 is short for
>keshi-tsubu 芥子粒, or "poppy seeds," symbolic of anything small.
>"Kokeshi" seems to come from "keshi-ningyou", and the "ko" in "kokeshi"
>means "small," not "child."
>
You probably also noticed that the kanji you mention here also has the meaning
of "trash" or "garbage". Could this have some effect on why some people
speculate that "kokeshi" has something to do with disposing of children?
Michael Cash
Jed Rothwell
Lei Tanabe <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> I've never seen 'kokeshi' kept in butsudan.
Not nowadays! I meant back in the '40s during the Occupation when Smith did
his initial fieldwork. Modern kokeshi are purely decorative items (and cute,
too).
I am trying to think of an example of European or U.S. decorative item that
originated in something gruesome or unwholesome, and I dredged one up from
memory. In 1900s, up until 1960 or so, people in the South often decorated
their front lawn near the driveway with small statues of a black child
holding a lamp. This was later considered a racist symbol, and you rarely
see these statues nowadays. (No great loss.) I read a story once that I
hardly believe, but if it is true it is similar to the kokeshi origin. It
seems that during the Revolutionary war Gen. George Washington once told one
of his slaves to wait by a riverside with a lamp while Washington and others
went off in the night to some critical meeting or battle, or something (I do
not remember). When they returned, the slave had frozen to death rather than
abaondon his post to move to a warmer spot. Washington was so moved by
event, he commissioned a small statue for Mt. Vernon of a black man holding
a lamp. Whether this is true or not, the story is disturbing to a modern
person, with its references to slavery and death. It is the last thing a
housewife decorating her lawn in 1955 would want to think about, so I very
much doubt that anyone buying a statue back then had any idea of this
alleged origin. (Whether the story is true or not, it was well known back in
the '50s, just as the sacrificial meaning of "kokeshi" is well known to most
Japanese people -- at least it is known to 5 or 6 I have asked this week.)
- Jed
s_y...@my-deja.com
I doubt it. Ordinary people don't know if the word "kokeshi" has
kanji to go with it in the first place. Typically, I didn't know it.
The word "keshi" must have been there for a long time, but I have no
idea when or how these particular kanji were assigned to the plant. In
this connection, I should tell you I came across another kanji
rendition of the word somewhere, which I won't bother to introduce.
My current guess is that the kanji were intended originally to refer to
the seeds of the plant, rather than the plant itself. The reason I say
this is that, to me, the character used for "shi," 子 seems to refer to
its seeds more than anything else: "keshi" was represented as 芥子
because it originally meant "triflingly small(instead ofdirty)-looking
seeds," but then it came to refer to the whole plant, which is often
the case with plant names, and then people have come to feel the need
to add "tsubu" 粒 to specifically refer to the seeds. But again, this
is right off the top of my head. Any heroine addicts around here to
support my shaky allegation?
According to what the same author says on the same web page I
introduced, "kokeshi" had been called by several, locally different
names like "houko," "kiboko," "kideko" and a few more (dictionaries
seem to support this), until around 1940, when the diverse ways of
calling them were "unified" into "kokeshi", nationwide. If this
were true, it would certainly be difficult to imagine that the
promotors of kokeshi, whoever they were, would choose to settle on
something that are so overtly suggestive, given that the dolls had
anything to do with infanticidal practices, whether they were ongoing
at the time or just things of the past.
It seems like what are called by keshi-ningyou are the kind of dolls
displayed at Hinamatsuri, or the Girls' Festival in early March. I have
a problem here. The Keshi-ningyou itself dates back to sometime
around the mid 1700's in the Kyouhou Period of the Edo Era. If "keshi"
simply meant small, what I get out of "kokeshi" would be like, "small
small (dolls)" Besides the obvious redundancy, the fact is, kokeshi
tend to be far larger in size than keshi-ningyou.
For now, I must resort to my own speculation again. Although kokeshi is
written as 小芥子, where the first character, as I mentioned in my
previous post, denotes "smallness," it could really be that first
character, not the third one that represents the meaning of a "child."
The element of an infant could well be somewhere, because AFIK, you
never get to see an adult face drawn on a kokeshi. There must be some
connection between "small" and a "child." At least, the word carries to
me the sense of a "small/little fellow."
Well, I've done far more than my share of "playing amateur
anthropology". :-)
s_y...@my-deja.com
"Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> The name 'kokeshi', in addition to Sho's explanation, seems derived
> from its shape similar to 'keshi-bouzu', a poppy seedpod.
Just out of curiosity, did you find a resource to back this up?
Attributing the seedpod and the stem of the plant to the origin of the
word was someting so inviting and I have barely managed not to mention
in my previous posts. So far, I haven't been able to locate it
anywhere.
Michael Cash
<JedRo...@infinite-energy.com> wrote:
The only lawn statuary I have ever seen of the type you mention are called "lawn
jockeys" or "yard jockeys" and weren't carrying lamps, but rather holding a
metal ring to which a visitor could attach the reins of his horse while
visiting. (Or so it was explained to me). Sort of the ante-bellum answer to
guest towels.
Michael Cash
"Your constant resorting to quotes from me to fill your
signature file, Mr. Cash, only serves to illustrate your
total lack of originality and creativity."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
"Of course you hated your mother, Mr. Cash. Had you had
any love or compassion for her whatsoever you would have
done her the favor of running away and joining the carnival
at a tender age."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Dean of Psychiatry
Susanne Rohrer
Nona Myers wrote:
> I find all of this very interesting. I don't remember what they
> are called and my memory is not too good on this, but I seem to
> recall a place in Japan dedicated to unborn child (for whatever
> reasons). Lot's of life-size stone figures resembling kokeshi
> like demeanor.
possibly Hase-dera in Kamakura?
see http://cap.anu.edu.au/%7Esits/japan3.html
susanne
Jed Rothwell
"Michael Cash" <etb...@mtpilot.edu> wrote:
> The only lawn statuary I have ever seen of the type you mention are called
"lawn
> jockeys" or "yard jockeys" and weren't carrying lamps, but rather holding
a
> metal ring to which a visitor could attach the reins of his horse while
> visiting. (Or so it was explained to me).
Yes, you are quite right. That is probably what I had in mind. Anyway, I
doubt the "George Washington" origin. My point is, here we have decorative
item with a rather gruesome origin (or mythical origin.) Kind of like
hanging swords and lances on the wall, or decorating with suit of armor in
the hall. When an object becomes sufficiently distant from its origins,
people find it beautiful. As someone pointed out, after WWII the Dutch
government presented Gen. Eisenhower with a diamond studded sword, they did
not give him a diamond studded burp-gun. (I think it was the Dutch.)
- Jed
Gerald B Mathias
: On Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:52:09 -0500, "Jed Rothwell"
: <JedRo...@infinite-energy.com> wrote:
:>
:>Lei Tanabe <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
:>
:>> I've never seen 'kokeshi' kept in butsudan.
:>
:>Not nowadays! I meant back in the '40s during the Occupation when Smith did
:>his initial fieldwork. Modern kokeshi are purely decorative items (and cute,
:>too).
:>
: I find all of this very interesting. I don't remember what they
: are called and my memory is not too good on this, but I seem to
: recall a place in Japan dedicated to unborn child (for whatever
: reasons). Lot's of life-size stone figures resembling kokeshi
: like demeanor.
Maybe a temple within short walking distance of Ryoanji in Kyoto? I
remember seeing something of the sort when I finally got to that city in
1985 (28 years after I first planned it).
Bart
s_y...@my-deja.com
This must be Adashino-nenbutsuji in Oku-saga, Kyoto. Right, Annie?
Many of you might know all this, but abortion is not as big as issue in
Japan as in North America, for example. Nowadays, this place, to take
for an example, almost looks like a place for young women to visit to
seek assuagement for having aborted their conceived embryos. I
don't exactly know what to make of it. At least, it's that "overtly"
done.
Do you remember a place you didn't make it? In case you want to
"revisit," go to,
http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/org/media/sakura/s11-adashino.html
Don Kirkman
<38796d9e...@news.sunfield.ne.jp>:
>On Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:52:09 -0500, "Jed Rothwell"
><JedRo...@infinite-energy.com> wrote:
>The only lawn statuary I have ever seen of the type you mention are called "lawn
>jockeys" or "yard jockeys" and weren't carrying lamps, but rather holding a
>metal ring to which a visitor could attach the reins of his horse while
>visiting. (Or so it was explained to me). Sort of the ante-bellum answer to
>guest towels.
Not totally unlike the carved wooden Indian standing outside US cigar
stores (tobacco shops, an almost vanished species), some until quite
recently when someone realized the practice might be considered
offensive.
In this case it was an advertising gimmick (maybe because the Indians
introduced the European settlers to tobacco?), not a hospitality item.
BTW, I can remember at least one lawn jockey where I grew up in
California, and no matter what anybody says that was NOT ante-bellum.
--
Old age brings pleasant memories, sometimes of things that really happened.
Don
Annie
>In article <3877414c....@news.sunfield.ne.jp>,
> etb...@mtpilot.edu wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 03:10:47 GMT, s_y...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> (trim)
>> >
>> >What dictionaries tell me is that "keshi" or 芥子 is short for
>> >keshi-tsubu 芥子粒, or "poppy seeds," symbolic of anything small.
>> >"Kokeshi" seems to come from "keshi-ningyou", and the "ko" in
>"kokeshi"
>> >means "small," not "child."
>> >
>> You probably also noticed that the kanji you mention here also has
>the meaning
>> of "trash" or "garbage". Could this have some effect on why some
>people
>> speculate that "kokeshi" has something to do with disposing of
>children?
>
>I doubt it. Ordinary people don't know if the word "kokeshi" has
>kanji to go with it in the first place. Typically, I didn't know it.
>
Maybe he is talking about the kanji 芥(akuta) instead of 芥子.
I guess the meaning "akuta" came from "very small", but I'm not confident.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Lei Tanabe
<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:85btio$h95$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <45yd4.164$7b5....@news.clear.net.nz>,
> "Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > The name 'kokeshi', in addition to Sho's explanation, seems derived
> > from its shape similar to 'keshi-bouzu', a poppy seedpod.
>
> Just out of curiosity, did you find a resource to back this up?
> Attributing the seedpod and the stem of the plant to the origin of the
> word was someting so inviting and I have barely managed not to mention
> in my previous posts. So far, I haven't been able to locate it
> anywhere.
I checked this up through all reference books I have here.
Only "shincho-kokugo-jiten" says the seedpod is a likely origin.
You know "keshi-bouzu" also represents a children's hair-style (or
hairless-style?), a shaven-up one except the top just like the seedpod. The
typical "kokeshi" has such head, doesn't it?
Lei
Lei Tanabe
"Nona Myers" <no...@best.com> wrote in message
news:b0ji7so10q4tml8nh...@4ax.com...
>
> I find all of this very interesting. I don't remember what they
> are called and my memory is not too good on this, but I seem to
> recall a place in Japan dedicated to unborn child (for whatever
> reasons). Lot's of life-size stone figures resembling kokeshi
> like demeanor.
They are "jizou-bosatsu 地蔵菩薩 (bodhisattva)" or often called
"o-jizou-san".
"jizou" has been regarded as the savior of children since Kamakura-period.
It's used for a memorial service for stillborn babies/aborted fetuses which
is called "mizuko-kuyou".
Many temples have a corner for this purpose as they are not provided with
graves of their own.
Lei
s_y...@my-deja.com
"Annie" <ann...@gol.com> wrote:
> s_y...@my-deja.com wrote in message <85bf53$7fm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >I doubt it. Ordinary people don't know if the word "kokeshi" has
> >kanji to go with it in the first place. Typically, I didn't know it.
> >
>
> Maybe he is talking about the kanji 芥(akuta) instead of 芥子.
> I guess the meaning "akuta" came from "very small", but I'm not
confident.
I thought I indicated that I knew what he meant by saying (triflingly
small rather than "dirty"-looking) further down. The right end
parenthesis was not properly placed and I'm sure it was difficult to
get any meaning out of it, but yes, I was aware of what he was talking
about.
I'm not sure if Michael managed to sense that I had gotten his message
correctly, though. Thank you, either way, for giving me an opportunity
to repharase the part in question.
Michael Cash
(tobacco shops, an almost vanished species)
Does anybody know where one is in the Tokyo area? Specifically one with pipe
tobacco?
I saw an older Japanese man walking down the road smoking a pipe in Tsukiji a
few weeks ago. Before I could find a suitable place to pull my truck over and go
ask him, he was gone.
Sean Holland
> Not totally unlike the carved wooden Indian standing outside US cigar
> stores (tobacco shops, an almost vanished species), some until quite
> recently when someone realized the practice might be considered
> offensive.
>
> In this case it was an advertising gimmick (maybe because the Indians
> introduced the European settlers to tobacco?), not a hospitality item.
>
> BTW, I can remember at least one lawn jockey where I grew up in
> California, and no matter what anybody says that was NOT ante-bellum.
That would depend on which, uh, "belli"(?) you were talking about, wouldn't it? I
remember those lawn jockeys from when I was a kid, a period which extended from
roughly the end of the Korean War to the end of the Vietnam War.
You speak of wooden Indians. I just can't get over how an American baseball team
in this, the final year of the 20th century, can still have as its name a racial
epithet and as its symbol an insulting cartoon stereotype. There are a lot of
African-American players and managers etcetera in that league. I wonder if they
think its okay. What would they think of a team named "The Black Skins" with Little
Black Sambo as the mascot?
Ross Klatte
>Date: Sat, 08 January 2000 06:50 PM EST
>Message-id: <3877414c....@news.sunfield.ne.jp>
>
>On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 03:10:47 GMT, s_y...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>(trim)
>>
>>What dictionaries tell me is that "keshi" or 芥子 is short for
>>keshi-tsubu 芥子粒, or "poppy seeds," symbolic of anything small.
>>"Kokeshi" seems to come from "keshi-ningyou", and the "ko" in "kokeshi"
>>means "small," not "child."
>>
>You probably also noticed that the kanji you mention here also has the
>meaning
>of "trash" or "garbage". Could this have some effect on why some people
>speculate that "kokeshi" has something to do with disposing of children?
>
>
>
I think any culture capable of inventing the term "Kanekuimushi"
is capable of inventing a term for disposable progeny.