Dictionaries ; grammar ; ATJ question
Nihongo
Nihongo Discussion Group, V96, #51
----------------------------------
From jm...@i3d.es Thu Nov 14 14:22:07 1996
Date: Mii, 06 Nov 96 13:42:05 +0100 (MET)
From: Jordi Mas Trullenque <jm...@i3d.es>
To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Subject: incorrectness
Alan Thompson <atho...@oise.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>seems to be out of touch with the way speakers understand their own
>language. That is, How can it be 'incorrect' if everyone uses it?
Come to think of it, there is a certain class of English words
which are used by everyone and yet everyone thinks them
"incorrect" . It's a matter of private versus public. Why shouldn't
the same thing happen in other languages?
They're certainly not the kind of words I would teach to foreigners.
-- Jordi
--------------------------------------------------
From afj...@po.cnet.or.jp Thu Nov 14 14:22:54 1996
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 20:07:20 +0900
From: Michael Radich and Amanda Jack <afj...@po.cnet.or.jp>
To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Subject: Kenkyuusha's dictionaries
I would like to ask list members about the Japanese in Kenkyuusha's two
dictionaries, (Japanese-English and English-Japanese), and particularly
the former. I have run across several instances where the Japanese in
these two dictionaries was consistently judged "out of use" by speakers
around me. Examples from English-Japanese: the term "katsubutai" as a
translation for "arena" in the abstract sense of "a sphere of action"
(110 [page numbers from 1980 edition]) (my friend substituted simple
"butai"); the term "jiminzokuchuushinshugi" for "ethnocentrism" (714)
(which admittedly could be merely because the notion is not in such
current circulation as in the West). From the Japanese English: the term
"tochi toukishi" for land speculator (1816 [page numbers from Thirty-first
impression (1995) of Fourth Edition (1974)]) (another friend substituted
"jiageya"); the phrase "suugaku ni mukanai atama" as a translation of "a
poor head for mathematics" (50); the phrase "shachihokodachi shitemo ~
dekinai" [even if I stood on my head like a _shachihoko_ I couldn't]
(1505) which my friend had never heard and replaced with "sakadachi
shitemo . . .".
My question does not relate to these examples specifically, which I only
give for reference, and nor are these the only examples I have struck. Of
course, such instances will be found in all dictionaries, and I am happy
with the prospect of resolving which particular examples are or are not in
use around me by trial and error and by asking friends. What I am
interested to know from list members with better Japanese and experience
of both dictionaries is: to what extent are the examples cited unusual?
To the same extent as with the English (which is from my standpoint often
quite old-fashioned and obscure)? Is there a consistent pattern to the
style of Japanese used in examples, particularly - is it academic, old
fashioned, snobbish, literary for example? Does anyone know the history
of the dictionaries, and how the examples particularly were arrived at -
were they culled from living sources and if so what were those sources, or
were they produced by translation teams working under the dictionary's
editorship, for instance? Does anyone know relevant facts about Masuda
Kou in particular, and are there aspects of his own education and
experiences that have left a personal stamp on the dictionary? (I ask
this last question because the feeling I get reading his dictionary
sometimes reminds me of that of two famous Chinese-English dictionaries,
that of Mathews and that of Lin Yutang (? I might be remembering wrongly
here) - in both cases there is a strong sense of a particular personal and
scholarly style that pervades the whole work, which both gives it a
consistency and also limits it in a way.) I would also be interested to
read generally about opinions of the two dictionaries held by seasoned
users. I worry, for example, that the English-Japanese one is like an
English-Chinese one I used to use, which was firstly developed for Chinese
users and so aimed at conveying the meaning of the English and not
modelling acceptable Chinese, and whose editors seemed to be under the
impression that words which were in common usage (in Chinese) were
inappropriate for the august precincts of their work and avoided them as
much as possible.
Thanks in advance for your comments
Michael Radich
45 Shimadachi
Matsumoto-shi
Nagano-ken 390
--------------------------------------------------
From lu...@gol.com Thu Nov 14 14:23:13 1996
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 02:19:51 +0900 (JST)
From: Mario Luoni <lu...@gol.com>
To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Cc: lu...@gol1.gol.com
Subject: ureshii deshita
Could it be that those who believe to have heard "ureshii deshita" didn't
notice that what they heard was actually "ureshii n deshita"?
-Mario (lu...@gol.com)
--------------------------------------------------
From afj...@po.cnet.or.jp Thu Nov 14 14:23:35 1996
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:52:59 +0900
From: Michael Radich and Amanda Jack <afj...@po.cnet.or.jp>
To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Subject: grammar
Hello everyone. Some more questions about syntax:
1. I have heard a question particle "-kke", as in "Nandakke". I cannot
find this particle in either kenkyuusha or the dictionary of Japanese
grammar that sits on my shelf (Maclean and someone I think). What, if
any, conditions restrict its use? Does its meaning differ in any way from
the various other question particles, and if so how?
2. What is the form of the verb that is used in proverbs? What is its
origin? Examples: "Go ni haireba go ni SHITAGAE", "Waga mi wo tsumeru to
hito no itami wo SHIRE", "Tatteiru mono wa oya demo TSUKAE", "He wo hitte
shiri TSUBOME".
3. I ran across an expression "He no kappa", which means "really easy"
and I imagine corresponds roughly to the phrase "a piece of piss" which we
use in NZ. How is the particle "no" being used here? At first glance the
phrase seems to mean "a fart's kappa" but I imagine it would make more
sense if it read "a kappa's fart" in which case I would of course expect
the order to be reversed.
Thank you
Michael Radich
--------------------------------------------------
From afj...@po.cnet.or.jp Thu Nov 14 14:24:09 1996
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:21:03 +0900
From: Michael Radich and Amanda Jack <afj...@po.cnet.or.jp>
To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Subject: etymologies
Does anyone know if there is a dictionary available which gives
etymologies of Japanese words? By this I mean of wago and not kango, and
etymologies of the word as a phonemic structure and not of the kanji. I
have been told that for Chinese the work on etymology has been done but is
not very accessible, since it has yet to be compiled into dictionary form.
Perhaps the same is the case for Japanese? If not I would be very
grateful if someone could point me to a reference for such etymologies,
since one of the pleasures I derive from English dictionaries is looking
at etymologies and interconnections between words of similar derivation.
I read a claim today that English is the language for which current
lexicography is the most advanced. I am inclined to suspect the claim
because of the context, which was what I found a slightly chauvinistic
book about the virtues and superiorities of English, and a naked
celebration of its status as "THE" world language. However, I didn't
think it impossible that etymological work, especially on words as
phonemic structures (rather than the kanji for the slightly graphocentric
philological traditions of countries which use kanji), would have come
later to non-Western cultures and been adopted by them as part of the
conversion to Western academic paradigms. This might mean that
etymologies are better know for Western and Indo-European languages than
for languages outside that family. Do readers have any comments on this,
or knowledge more certain than my guesses which they might share?
Thanks.
Michael Radich.
--------------------------------------------------
From ksc...@nmjc.org Thu Nov 14 14:24:28 1996
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:49:19 -0700
From: Keiko Schneider <ksc...@nmjc.org>
To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Subject: ATJ info
Dear colleagues,
Forgive me for basic level of information that I am going to ask. I forgot
to pay the due for ATj this year, and I called the number they had in the
old newsletter, it was no good in Middulebury. Is ATJ still in Middlebury?
Could anybody help me with contact and conference info.
taihen moushiwake arimasenga douka yoroshiku onegaishimasu.
Keiko Kawanabe Schneider (MAT 23)
Japanese Instructor
US-Japan Center
at the University of New Mexico, USA
--------------------------------------------------
From FLEA...@aol.com Thu Nov 14 14:25:03 1996
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:06:43 -0500
From: FLEA...@aol.com
To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Subject: Quest for Hogen
Greetings,
I'm on a quest for any books on Okinawan History and Dialect. I have a
martial arts instructor that is originally from Okinawa and uses the Hogen
dialect. Any book titles, authors, publishers, et cetra that cover this
topic would be appreciated.
Lee Richards
Kansas City, MO
--------------------------------------------------
From las...@gol.com Thu Nov 14 14:25:20 1996
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:17:39 +0900 (JST)
From: Tony Laszlo <las...@gol.com>
To: is...@ishiilab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp, iss...@jca.or.jp, G-B...@iijnet.or.jp,
fuku...@ucsd.edu, jalt...@clc.hyper.chubu.ac.jp,
kansa...@mai.hyg.med.kyoto-u.ac.jp, NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
Cc: Tony Laszlo <las...@gol.com>
Subject: [ISSHO] 11/7 ** ISSHO survey - the word "Gaijin" **
[ISSHO] 11/7 ** ISSHO survey - the word "Gaijin" **
Please feel free to forward this on to other interested parties. If
you forward it to other lists or newsgroups, please drop us a note
(las...@apic.or.jp) so that we don't send this message to the same
place more than once.
This document has been archived as:
http://www.iac.co.jp/~issho/kyoryoku110796.txt
ftp://kuso.shef.ac.uk/pub/japanese/issho/kyoryoku110796.txt
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
Many thanks to all who responded to our survey. So far, there are
approx. 100 valid responses. While this may seem like a lot
in three or four days (especially when contemplating the task of
processing the survey data!), this is still quite a small sample, I
think you'll agree.
* By all means, please continue to pass on the survey to any
other interested parties. Suggestions for the inventive ways
of handling the data are also very welcome.
**** Those of you who are Tokyo-based, please join in the preliminary
analysis at Shimokitazawa's Kitazawa Town Hall 11F (Tokyo) on 11/9 (Sat.)
from 18:00. No entrance fee - RSVP (las...@apic.or.jp) - short walk
from south exit of Shimokitazawa station (see map or ask) - (10 min.
from Shinjuku on Odakyu, 10 min. from Shibuya on Inokashira) - Next
analysis set for 11/16, same location and time.
***Recent developments***
*It's now easier for people to participate in the survey.
"Japana.com" has designed a CGI script that will do the
job on the WWW.
The ISSHO Survey
The Word "Gaijin"
http://www.japana.com/issho/
* In conducting the first version of the survey, we neglected to ask
the number of years the participant has been/had been living in Japan.
Fortunately, many of you have sent that information. If you
haven't, please send that information at your earliest convenience.
I'm very sorry for the inconvenience. *
* There have many, many comments posted regarding this issue.
They are archived at: http://www.iac.co.jp/~issho/k-mokuji.html
* It seems that the Kume gaffe will be covered in an 11/10
Daily Yomiuri (newspaper) article.
* News Station's follow-up program regarding this issue is set for the
third week of this month.
* The Chicago Tribune covered the story recently; other foreign
press have also picked it up.
http://www.iac.co.jp/~issho/thismonth.html (monthly "ISSHO News")
http://www.iac.co.jp/~issho/k-mokuji.html ("Gaijin" & Katakoto)
T. Laszlo
ISSHO
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muchan
Re:Mailed, posted, canceled, and reformatted with Subject: renamed...
===============================================
Michael wrote to NIHONGO maillist and it was forwarded to <s.l.j>:
> From afj...@po.cnet.or.jp Thu Nov 14 14:23:35 1996
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:52:59 +0900
> From: Michael Radich and Amanda Jack <afj...@po.cnet.or.jp>
> To: NIH...@utkvm1.utk.edu
> Subject: grammar
>
> Hello everyone. Some more questions about syntax:
>
> 1. I have heard a question particle "-kke", as in "Nandakke". I cannot
> find this particle in either kenkyuusha or the dictionary of Japanese
> grammar that sits on my shelf (Maclean and someone I think). What, if
> any, conditions restrict its use? Does its meaning differ in any way from
> the various other question particles, and if so how?
"-kke" ending seems me like a variation (Edo dialect) of "-kai"
soko-ni aru-kai? --> soko-ni aru-kee --> soko-ni aru-kke
Origine of "kai" is surely "-ka" for interogation.
"-kana", "-kashira", etc. are its variations. Each one is used in
particular (respective?) context.
"-kee" ("-kai") is used mainly for light question for someone, but
"-kke" is almost strictly used for asking oneself, what he/she
already
knows, or what he/she's not completely sure. It *is* also used to ask
someone else, too, but in this case also suggest the speaker knows
about
it already, but not sure of it.
So, "nandakke", means,
"(I know, but don't remember exactly) what (it is/ I wanted to say/
etc.)?"
>
> 2. What is the form of the verb that is used in proverbs? What is its
> origin? Examples: "Go ni haireba go ni SHITAGAE", "Waga mi wo tsumeru to
> hito no itami wo SHIRE", "Tatteiru mono wa oya demo TSUKAE", "He wo hitte
> shiri TSUBOME".
Meireikei or interogative
>
> 3. I ran across an expression "He no kappa", which means "really easy"
> and I imagine corresponds roughly to the phrase "a piece of piss" which we
> use in NZ. How is the particle "no" being used here? At first glance the
> phrase seems to mean "a fart's kappa" but I imagine it would make more
> sense if it read "a kappa's fart" in which case I would of course expect
> the order to be reversed.
It must have been "kappa-no he".
Many jargons are made such way in reversing order of
words/meaning/sylables...
for example...,
please help everyone in <s.l.j> to find examples...
:)
muchan
Gerald B Mathias
muchan (muc...@promikra.si) wrote:
: Origine of "kai" is surely "-ka" for interogation.
I've always figured it goes back to "-ka-yo." (And "-wai" to "-wa-yo")
Of course, now "-ka-yo" stays "-ka-yo" if you really mean it.
: So, "nandakke", means,
: "(I know, but don't remember exactly) what (it is/ I wanted to say/
: etc.)?"
: > 2. What is the form of the verb that is used in proverbs? What is its
: > origin? Examples: "Go ni haireba go ni SHITAGAE", "Waga mi wo tsumeru to
: > hito no itami wo SHIRE", "Tatteiru mono wa oya demo TSUKAE", "He wo hitte
: > shiri TSUBOME".
: Meireikei or interogative
Or sometimes "imperative." It's not "the form of the verb that is used
in proverbs"; proverbs use the same forms as anything else.
Bart
dbk...@netexpress.net
On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:19:47 -0800, muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote:
>> 3. I ran across an expression "He no kappa", which means "really easy"
>> and I imagine corresponds roughly to the phrase "a piece of piss" which we
>> use in NZ. How is the particle "no" being used here? At first glance the
>> phrase seems to mean "a fart's kappa" but I imagine it would make more
>> sense if it read "a kappa's fart" in which case I would of course expect
>> the order to be reversed.
>
> It must have been "kappa-no he".
> Many jargons are made such way in reversing order of
>words/meaning/sylables...
> for example...,
>
> please help everyone in <s.l.j> to find examples...
My guess is that the order suggests "a farting kappa", and I'm
assuming that you know that a kappa is a kind of weird monster with a
plate on the crown of its head. It's a totally mythical beast, one of
the basic Japanese _obake_, or monsters. Other examples of obake are
oni (big horned ogres that wear tiger skins and live under the earth -
"Urusei Yatsura" satirizes them) and tengu (long-nosed demons).
If you're looking for usage examples of "he no kappa", there's
one in the theme song for the "Dragon Ball Z" TV cartoon, which if I
remember right contains the line:
karappo no hou ga,
he no, he no kappa
Which I gather to mean "But there's nothing at all, just a
kappa farting". Then the song goes into the immortal chorus "CHA-LA,
HEAD CHA-LA!", which I still haven't figured out the significance of
yet.
Siqin Simmons
dbk...@netexpress.net wrote:
: If you're looking for usage examples of "he no kappa", there's
: one in the theme song for the "Dragon Ball Z" TV cartoon, which if I
: remember right contains the line:
:
: karappo no hou ga,
: he no, he no kappa
:
: Which I gather to mean "But there's nothing at all, just a
: kappa farting". Then the song goes into the immortal chorus "CHA-LA,
: HEAD CHA-LA!", which I still haven't figured out the significance of
: yet.
You've put two lyrics from different verses together.
Cha-La, Head Cha-la,
Nani ga okite mo kibun wa
he no, he no kappa
where "Head Cha-la" is really "Hetchara," or "everything's fine,"
followed by "No matter what comes up, we're not too bothered." Elsewhere,
Cha-La, Head Cha-La,
Atama karappo no hou ga
yume tsumekomeru
lit. "You can cram more dreams into your head if it's empty."
_ ___ ___ ___ ___
_`| / __`| / __`| / __`| / .-^ ___ Steven J. Simmons
---/ /----/ /----/ /----/ /--=^^ ^^=, sls...@u.cc.utah.edu
--/ /----/ /----/ /----/ /---=__ __=' "Dragon, Dragon, Rotten Dragon"
|._/ |._/ |._/ |._/ ^^^ --DBZ Theme, according to Vidmark's CC
Sheila Asato
Dear Lee Richards,
I too am interested in things Okinawan, especially since my husband a
nd his family are from there. In order to understand his grandmother
in particular, I have had to learn a bit of Okinawan dialect. Two f
un little books I have found, both in Japanaese, are
"Okinawa Yamatokotoba no Hon" published by Okinawa Shuppan, telephone
0988-87-2775 or 0988-85-8185. It was published in 1984 by Hirayama
Ryoumei. It cost me 980 yen.
The second book is "The Okinawan Mind in Proverbs", which is in both
English and Japanese. It was written by Shimabukuro Zenkou, assista
nt professor of English at the University of the Ryukyus. The publis
her's phone number is 0988-89-5513. It cost me 1,500yen a few years
back.
I hope these little books may be of some help to you.
Sheila Asato
as...@gol.com
Sheila Asato
Steven,
Thanks for explaining what that silly Dragon Ball Z song means. My l
ittle boy has been sining it non-stop for about 2 years now. I find
myself humming that stupid melody and constantly wondering what on ea
rth it means. Now I know, it isn't just silly English afterall!
Sheila Asato
as...@gol.com
Sheila Asato
Hi Michael,
I don't know how good your Japanese reading is, but I have found the
following dictionary to be very useful for learning about the etymolo
gy of Japanese words. It is called "Kanji naritachi jiten". This is
a dictionary I picked up for my son who is in the third grade (8 yea
rs old). Although I studied Kanji quite a bit over the years and in
college, I find that I am often at a loss when questioned about the m
eanings of Japanese words and their origins by an 8 year old. This d
ictionary is written for kids, which means that it has furigana and l
ots of nice illustrations. Although it is for kids, I find it very i
nteresting and fun to browse through without being too difficult. It
costs 2,500 yen and is published by Kyoikusha, 1991. Their phone nu
mber in Japan is 0423-95-0538 and the fax is 0423-95-0587. I am sure
that you could order it overseas at any Kinokuniya as well.
Sheila Asato
as...@gol.com
Michitaka Suzuki
>>> and I imagine corresponds roughly to the phrase "a piece of piss" which we
>>> use in NZ. How is the particle "no" being used here? At first glance the
>>> phrase seems to mean "a fart's kappa" but I imagine it would make more
>>> sense if it read "a kappa's fart" in which case I would of course expect
>>> the order to be reversed.
>>
>> Many jargons are made such way in reversing order of
>>words/meaning/sylables...
>> for example...,
'<Daredare> no bakayaroo!', logically it should be
'Bakayaroo no <daredare>'.
'darashinai' originally was
'shidaranai'.
'Uso tsuke!' literally means 'Tell a lie!', but somehow it means
'DON'T tell a lie!'.
Who reversed them?
Minasan mo hoka no rei wo mitsuketara, oshiete kudasai.
Mitchan