Ich bin ein hito
Sceadu
friction, almost like "ch" in German "ich." Is it proper to try emulating
this?
Sceadu
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Kevin Wayne Williams
> Lately I've noticed that some people pronounce the "h" in ひ with some
> friction, almost like "ch" in German "ich." Is it proper to try emulating
> this?
I know what you mean, but I think you need to listen more closely. It's
less voiced than the German "ch" sound.
That said, the resemblance is strong enough that the rohmazhi for
"Eichmann" is アイヒマン.
KWW
Kevin Wayne Williams
Excuse me, that should have been kakanatakata.
KWW
dar...@inter7ns.jp
> Lately I've noticed that some people pronounce the "h" in ひ with some
> friction, almost like "ch" in German "ich." Is it proper to try emulating
> this?
>
I have read somewhere that は行 in 東京弁 sometimes sounds
like German "ch". By the way, one of many things I don't
understand in English pronunciation is why "bach" and "mach"
have got their pronunciations in English.
--
dareka dar...@inter7NS.jp
Marc Adler
> I have read somewhere that は行 in 東京弁 sometimes sounds
> like German "ch". By the way, one of many things I don't
> understand in English pronunciation is why "bach" and "mach"
> have got their pronunciations in English.
No word-final [h] sound in English (no [kh] sound at all in Standard
English), so [k] was the closest option.
--
「斯くてゴルゴタといふ處に、即ち髑髏(されかうべ)の地にいたり、苦味を混ぜ
たる葡萄酒を飲ませんとしたるに、嘗めて、飲まんとし給はず。」
太 二七・三三－三四
Lau, Chaak-Ming, BCogScI
"Sceadu" <aeona...@NOhotmailANNOYINGSPAM.com> 在郵件 news:408b2f4c$1...@corp.newsgroups.com 中撰寫...
> Lately I've noticed that some people pronounce the "h" in $B$R (B with some
Lau, Chaak-Ming, BCogScI
Some textbooks describe the sound as
" 'ch' as in German 'Ich' "
Note that "hi" in Japanese is palatal rather than glottal.
Emulating the sound by German "ich" sounds better than English "he"
--
Chaak-Ming
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2004-04-25 15:44 Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <c6h4e6$bhq1v$1...@ID-204076.news.uni-berlin.de>
>
>dar...@inter7NS.jp wrote:
>
>> I have read somewhere that ‚Í s in “Œ‹ž•Ù sometimes sounds
>> like German "ch". By the way, one of many things I don't
>> understand in English pronunciation is why "bach" and "mach"
>> have got their pronunciations in English.
>
>No word-final [h] sound in English (no [kh] sound at all in Standard
>English), so [k] was the closest option.
There is, I think, a significant difference between American speakers
and Japanese speakers as to how they treat nonexistent sounds.
In America, those who can pronounce alien sounds--such as Bach, or
Kyushu, or Puerto Rico--do so, even when they are speaking to an
English-only audience.
On PBS radio, people who can pronounce Saint-Saens correctly do
so; those who can't, don't.
Personally, unless I am dealing with a word which has become reasonably
well americanized, I use the foreign pronunciation, if I know it. I admit that
sometimes I say "Carrie Okie" when I am talking to someone whose intelligence
I do not respect. But I would not say "Kai Yuu Shoe" even if I were talking to
the
dubya itself.
Japanese speakers, on the other hand, will nipponify their pronunciation of
English
words even if they are fully capable of using the correct pronunciation. They
do
so even when they have grounds to suspect that their listeners might
understand the correct pronunciation. On NHK radio, for example, the
announcers always said "Baha." It is not "Baha," any more than it is
"Bak." The Japanese NHK announcers always said "Baha." I am sure
that many of them knew the correct pronunciation. Why didn't they use
it? It was because they were ethnically crippled. They were convinced
that there are only two languages in the world: (1) Japanese and
(2) not Japanese.
If you listen to Spanish radio in the US, you will observe that those
Spanish speakers who are able to use the English pronunciations
for street names, or city names, et cetera, do so; while those who
are not able, will pronounce the names as if they were Spanish
words.
England, which is like Japan in being an island and in being a stronghold
of complacent arrogance, follows the same pattern of always "anglicizing"
foreign words, even when the Englishman knows the correct pronunciation.
Go, Sharks.
Ross
Vontay, Virginia
http://community.webshots.com/user/ross_klatte
http://www.geocities.com/foundlingfather/
Cindy
> Japanese speakers, on the other hand, will nipponify their pronunciation of
> English
> words even if they are fully capable of using the correct pronunciation. They
> do
> so even when they have grounds to suspect that their listeners might
> understand the correct pronunciation. On NHK radio, for example, the
> announcers always said "Baha." It is not "Baha," any more than it is
> "Bak." The Japanese NHK announcers always said "Baha." I am sure
> that many of them knew the correct pronunciation. Why didn't they use
> it? It was because they were ethnically crippled. They were convinced
> that there are only two languages in the world: (1) Japanese and
> (2) not Japanese.
日本人同士で会話している時はいろいろうるさいのです。
Ross Klatte
From: Cindy cind...@attb.net
Date: 2004-04-25 19:30 Eastern Daylight Time
> 日本人同士で会話している時はいろいろうるさいのです。
In a probably futile effort to claim the monarchy of pointmissingness,
I declare:
"I don't get it."
"Nipponjin-doushi de kaiwa-shiteiru toki wa iroiro 五月蝿い no desu."
When Japanese people are conversing with each other, they
have various and sundry methods of being obnoxious.
[my xlation]
No argument there.
But do you agree or disagree with my basic calumny of Japanese
culture? Or are you just exercising one of many various and
sundry methods of being obnoxious?
rose
Ross Klatte wrote:
>
> Japanese speakers, on the other hand, will nipponify their pronunciation of
> English
> words even if they are fully capable of using the correct pronunciation. They
> do
> so even when they have grounds to suspect that their listeners might
> understand the correct pronunciation. On NHK radio, for example, the
> announcers always said "Baha." It is not "Baha," any more than it is
> "Bak." The Japanese NHK announcers always said "Baha."
バッハはドイツの人なので、ドイツ語読みに近いバッハ
と言っているのでは？？
□■ <:３ ）～
■楽猫 <:３ ）～
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2004-04-25 20:21 Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <408C560C...@yahoo.com>
>
>
>
>Ross Klatte wrote:
>>
>> Japanese speakers, on the other hand, will nipponify their pronunciation of
>> English
>> words even if they are fully capable of using the correct pronunciation.
>They
>> do
>> so even when they have grounds to suspect that their listeners might
>> understand the correct pronunciation. On NHK radio, for example, the
>> announcers always said "Baha." It is not "Baha," any more than it is
>> "Bak." The Japanese NHK announcers always said "Baha."
>
��É‹ß‚¢ƒoƒbƒn
>‚ÆŒ¾‚Á‚Ä‚¢‚é‚Ì‚Å‚Í H H
>
>
>
> ¡ @ @ @ @ @<:‚R j `
> ¡Šy”L <:‚R j ` @ @
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Perhaps there is some subtle and mysterious difference
between Bahha and Bahha. But in any case, it is not the point I wished
to make.
The point I wished, obviously in vain, to make is:
Speakers of American English will anglicize a foreign word such as
"Bach," which cannot be pronounced in American English, as "Bak"--
if and only if they do not know how to pronounce "Bach"; if they know
how to pronounce "Bach" they will pronounce it as German "Bach."
Speakers of Japanese will nipponize a foreign word such as
"Bach," which cannot be pronounced in Japanese, as "Baha"--
whether or not they know how to pronounce "Bach"; even if they know
how to pronounce "Bach" they will still pronounce it as Japanese "Baha."
I did not wish to discuss the question: Is the Japanese pronunciation
of Bach as "Bahha" nearer or farther than the English pronunciation of
Bach as "Bak"? I think it is moderately obvious that Bahha is less far
away than Bak. If you want to propose that Japanese "Bahha" is closer
to the correct German pronunciation of "Bach" than the English "Bak,"
I immediately concede the point without demur.
I wished to discuss the following question:
Why does an NHK announcer who is probabaly well-educatated and
who is probably perfectly well aware of how the German "Bach" should
be pronounced insist on pronouncing it "Bahha"?
As contrary arguments I offered the following anecdotal evidence:
(1) A few of the hillbilly PBS radio announcers in South Carolina
pronounce "Bach" correctly.
(2) Hispanophone radio announcers, when they have to pronounce
English words, pronounce foreign words--such as English words--correctly,
if they know the correct pronunciation.
My thesis is that the Japanese culture--which is insular, complacent, and
arrogant--takes as a paradigm the possible existence of only two
languages: the Japanese language and any language which is not
Japanese.
Your antithesis, should you choose to accept it, consists of demonstrating
that I am full of bolonya. The three most obvious ways to shoot down my
idea are
Number 1: show that all PBS radio announcers in South Carolina
either (a) universally mispronounce "Bach" as "Bak"
or (b) universally pronounce "Bach" correctly
Number 2: show that all Spanish radio announcers
either (a) universally mispronounce "Jamestown" as "Hamestoh-uhn"
or (b) universally pronounce "Jamestown" correctly
Number 3: show that
(a) some Japanese NHK radio announcers mispronounce "Bach" as "Bahha"
and (b) some Japanese NHK radio announcers pronounce "Bach" correctly.
Number 4:
explain why, of all four iron chefs, only Sakai appears on Iron Chef
America?
Cindy
> Subject: Re: Ich bin ein hito
> From: Cindy cind...@attb.net
> Date: 2004-04-25 19:30 Eastern Daylight Time
>
>
>>日本人同士で会話している時はいろいろうるさいのです。
>
>
> In a probably futile effort to claim the monarchy of pointmissingness,
> I declare:
> "I don't get it."
>
> "Nipponjin-doushi de kaiwa-shiteiru toki wa iroiro 五月蝿い no desu."
> When Japanese people are conversing with each other, they
> have various and sundry methods of being obnoxious.
> [my xlation]
>
> No argument there.
>
> But do you agree or disagree with my basic calumny of Japanese
> culture? Or are you just exercising one of many various and
> sundry methods of being obnoxious?
理想としては日本人にどうなって欲しいわけ？
よくお互いに知りもしないうちに自分のカルチャーモードで変な冗談言って日本
人の相手が悪い方に誤解したらもう一巻の終わりですよ。そんな失敗したことな
いの？ 多分みんなやってんじゃないかなー。
Cindy
魚の骨を喉に詰まらせた時の発音。
Bart Mathias
> Lately I've noticed that some people pronounce the "h" in ひ with some
> friction, almost like "ch" in German "ich." Is it proper to try emulating
> this?
Absolutely! ひ is almost exactly "ich" backwards.
How could you say (or rather, hear) things like "hito, hiku," etc.,
without a lot more friction than you'd get with the "h" of は、へ、ほ?
The "h" before both high vowels has a lot of friction, because you have
to keep your mouth pretty much closed to produce a high vowel. Some
romaji fakes the friction of "h" before "u" by writing it as "f," which
of course it is not.
Bart
Marc Adler
> There is, I think, a significant difference between American speakers
> and Japanese speakers as to how they treat nonexistent sounds.
> In America, those who can pronounce alien sounds--such as Bach, or
> Kyushu, or Puerto Rico--do so, even when they are speaking to an
> English-only audience.
Well, that's kind of blanket.
> On PBS radio, people who can pronounce Saint-Saens correctly do
> so; those who can't, don't.
I personally hated the out-gutturalizing one-up-man-ship that took place
in my philosophy classes among all the losers who had taken a semester
of French and thought they could just extrapolate to all Yurpian
philosophers. The best was when one dimwit pronounced Ortega y Gasset
with a French r and without the last t.
A great quote from him, when we were discussing the Greek atomists: "I
mean, what does 'atom' mean, anyway? It doesn't mean anything."
There were no normal philosophy majors. They were all either opinionated
fucks or really cool, intelligent, laid-back people.
> But I would not say "Kai Yuu Shoe" even if I were talking to
I don't even get that. Oh, Kyushu? Did he pronounce it that way?
> It was because they were ethnically crippled. They were convinced
> that there are only two languages in the world: (1) Japanese and
> (2) not Japanese.
Hey now, Mr. Blanket. "Ethnically crippled"? That's going a bit far, I
think.
> England, which is like Japan in being an island and in being a stronghold
> of complacent arrogance, follows the same pattern of always "anglicizing"
> foreign words, even when the Englishman knows the correct pronunciation.
"Fillette" of fish and "markwiss" being two that really ennervate me.
Marc Adler
> In a probably futile effort to claim the monarchy of pointmissingness,
> I declare:
> "I don't get it."
いろいろ→いろいろと = in many ways.
うるさい = nit-picky
rose
Ross Klatte wrote:
>
> The point I wished, obviously in vain, to make is:
>
> Speakers of American English will anglicize a foreign word such as
> "Bach," which cannot be pronounced in American English, as "Bak"--
> if and only if they do not know how to pronounce "Bach"; if they know
> how to pronounce "Bach" they will pronounce it as German "Bach."
> Speakers of Japanese will nipponize a foreign word such as
> "Bach," which cannot be pronounced in Japanese, as "Baha"--
> whether or not they know how to pronounce "Bach"; even if they know
> how to pronounce "Bach" they will still pronounce it as Japanese "Baha."
Ah, I understand what you are saying now.
I think speakers of Japanese will nipponize a foreign word
such as "Bach", because if not カタカナ表示できないから？
Number 2: show that all Spanish radio announcers
> either (a) universally mispronounce "Jamestown" as "Hamestoh-uhn"
> or (b) universally pronounce "Jamestown" correctly
Off topic, but this reminds me the other night I was talking
to a spanish speaking lady online and she typed "jajaja".
I found out she meant "hahaha". I liked it. じゃじゃじゃ。
□■ <:３ ）～
■楽猫 <:３ ）～
rose
Cindy wrote:
>
> rose wrote:
> > バッハはドイツの人なので、ドイツ語読みに近いバッハ
> > と言っているのでは？？
>
> 魚の骨を喉に詰まらせた時の発音。
わははははは！ そうですね。
あと猫が毛玉を吐き出そうとしてる時とか。(^_^;
□■ <:３ ）～
■楽猫 <:３ ）～
rose
rose wrote:
>
> I think speakers of Japanese will nipponize a foreign word
> such as "Bach", because if not カタカナ表示できないから？
ごめんなさい。表示じゃなくて表記って書きたかったんです。
□■ <:３ ）～
■楽猫 <:３ ）～
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2004-04-25 21:32 Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <c6hor4$c8j0q$1...@ID-204076.news.uni-berlin.de>
>
berlin.de????
Why do I even waste my time?
>Well, that's kind of blanket.
Ah. You picked up on that. So you not an ethnic German.
>I personally hated the out-gutturalizing one-up-man-ship that took place
>in my philosophy classes among all the losers who had taken a semester
>of French and thought they could just extrapolate to all Yurpian
>philosophers. The best was when one dimwit pronounced Ortega y Gasset
>with a French r and without the last t.
>
>A great quote from him, when we were discussing the Greek atomists: "I
>mean, what does 'atom' mean, anyway? It doesn't mean anything."
>
>There were no normal philosophy majors. They were all either opinionated
>fucks or really cool, intelligent, laid-back people.
Meaningless drivel, as far as I can tell. I quote it in full just to prove
what
a really nice guy I am.
>Hey now, Mr. Blanket. "Ethnically crippled"? That's going a bit far, I
>think.
Ah. You picked up on that. So you not an ethnic German.
>"Fillette" of fish and "markwiss" being two that really ennervate me.
Bizarrely, we stumble into agreement. I think "markwiss" deserves
the death penalty.
By gill-o-tine.
> Ortega y Gasset
> with a French r and without the last t
Ah. I was too hasty with the "meaningless drivel." Upon re-reading,
you are rad. What a world. The American newsreaders have been taught
that all Chinese names should be pronounced just as Maurice Chevalier would
pronounce them. Ga-sei, I suppose. Judas Priest.
Ross Klatte
"Kai Yuu shoe" came from the TV program "World's Craziest Police
Chases" or something like that. Nice episode. I hadn't realized that
your ordinary Japanese citizen had access to so much firepower.
Didn't seem credible, actually, since Professor Matthias had
already explained that all gun violence comes from the N.R.A.
Marc Adler
> berlin.de????
> Why do I even waste my time?
Ummm...because it's just a news server, and I'm in Hawaii?
I give up.
> Ah. You picked up on that. So you not an ethnic German.
My last name's German, though.
> Meaningless drivel, as far as I can tell. I quote it in full just to prove
> what a really nice guy I am.
Karl Hass is one thing. But regarding Anglicized pronunciations of
foreign names as "inauthentic" is just too snooty for me.
> Ah. You picked up on that. So you not an ethnic German.
My last name's German, though.
> Bizarrely, we stumble into agreement. I think "markwiss" deserves
> the death penalty. By gill-o-tine.
We could just f-lay 'em. (Get it? Get it?)
> Ah. I was too hasty with the "meaningless drivel." Upon re-reading,
> you are rad. What a world. The American newsreaders have been taught
> that all Chinese names should be pronounced just as Maurice Chevalier would
> pronounce them. Ga-sei, I suppose. Judas Priest.
What's up with your quoting?
Kevin Wayne Williams
>>From: Marc Adler mad...@hawaii.edu
>>Date: 2004-04-25 21:32 Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <c6hor4$c8j0q$1...@ID-204076.news.uni-berlin.de>
>>
>
> berlin.de????
> Why do I even waste my time?
I suspect that Mr. Adler is another one of those deranged personality
splinters, and lurks somewhere in the Hawaiian Islands.
KWW
jim_...@hotmail.com
>Bizarrely, we stumble into agreement. I think "markwiss" deserves
>the death penalty.
>By gill-o-tine.
I disagree. If you are talking about marquess/marquis that's just the
way it is said in English. I don't go around saying "paree" for Paris
when I'm in English-speaking countries, just as I don't say "torkyor"
for Tokyo. And I don't get huffy when the Japanese call milk ミルク.
Everyone adopts words into their own language. EvEryone.
--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Ken
>
> sometimes I say "Carrie Okie" when I am talking to someone whose
> intelligence I do not respect. But I would not say "Kai Yuu Shoe"
> even if I were talking to the dubya itself.
Well, there's enough dumbed-down politically correct programming
and "reporting" on NHK to make one suspect that they consider
their audience to have only room-temperature IQs...
> Japanese speakers, on the other hand, will nipponify their
> pronunciation of English words even if they are fully capable
> of using the correct pronunciation. They do so even when they
> have grounds to suspect that their listeners might understand
> the correct pronunciation. On NHK radio, for example, the
> announcers always said "Baha."
As Cindy pointed out elsewhere, there are some "urusai" considerations
that apply in public-ish Japanese discourse when dealing with foreign
words. Using the correct foreign pronunciation can be considered by
some counterparties as "showing off," and would thus not reflect very
well on the speaker. I suspect Nippon-"don't-rock-the-boat"-Housou-
Kyoukai's staff are fully aware of these issues.
Ken Yasumoto-Nicolson
wrote:
>Speakers of American English will anglicize a foreign word such as
>"Bach," which cannot be pronounced in American English, as "Bak"--
>if and only if they do not know how to pronounce "Bach"; if they know
>how to pronounce "Bach" they will pronounce it as German "Bach."
>Speakers of Japanese will nipponize a foreign word such as
>"Bach," which cannot be pronounced in Japanese, as "Baha"--
>whether or not they know how to pronounce "Bach"; even if they know
>how to pronounce "Bach" they will still pronounce it as Japanese "Baha."
I can't vouch for US English, but in English English (us Scots can
pronounce "ch" correctly), foreign place names usually (BBC English)
have the Anglesized pronunciation: "Munich", "Florence", etc instead
of "Muchen" or "Firenze". Why can't the Japanese be permitted to do
the same with people's names?
>Ross
Ken
Joshua Hesse
> sometimes I say "Carrie Okie" when I am talking to someone whose intelligence
> I do not respect. But I would not say "Kai Yuu Shoe" even if I were talking to
> the
> dubya itself.
Probably a good idea.
http://www.insidepolitics.org/heard/heard32300.html (reposted from earlier)
--
Hypnotoad will crush Fiestacat in the November election.
Sceadu
news:c6ioba$a0puo$1...@ID-204076.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Ross Klatte <klatt...@aol.commmm> dixit:
>
> >Bizarrely, we stumble into agreement. I think "markwiss" deserves
> >the death penalty.
> >By gill-o-tine.
>
> I disagree. If you are talking about marquess/marquis that's just the
> way it is said in English. I don't go around saying "paree" for Paris
> when I'm in English-speaking countries, just as I don't say "torkyor"
> for Tokyo.
"Torkyor"? Maybe that would sound remotely correct in Australian
pronunciation...
Sceadu
news:c5fec6f.04042...@posting.google.com...
Isn't it the same in the US? I don't pronounce "karaoke" correctly for two
reasons: no one understands what I'm saying, and if they do, they think it's
snobbish. Same for "Bach" or anything else. Maybe I should move where room
temperature is measured in Kelvin.
jim_...@hotmail.com
>> way it is said in English. I don't go around saying "paree" for Paris
>> when I'm in English-speaking countries, just as I don't say "torkyor"
>> for Tokyo.
>"Torkyor"? Maybe that would sound remotely correct in Australian
>pronunciation...
Dunno. I speak with a rather RP accent, I am told. I'll make that
"とうきょう" if you're having trouble understanding what I wrote.
Sean Holland
jim_...@hotmail.com at jim_...@hotmail.com wrote on 4/27/04 5:00 AM:
> Sceadu <aeona...@nohotmailannoyingspam.com> dixit:
>> <jim_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:c6ioba$a0puo$1...@ID-204076.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>> I disagree. If you are talking about marquess/marquis that's just the
>>> way it is said in English. I don't go around saying "paree" for Paris
>>> when I'm in English-speaking countries, just as I don't say "torkyor"
>>> for Tokyo.
>
>> "Torkyor"? Maybe that would sound remotely correct in Australian
>> pronunciation...
>
> Dunno. I speak with a rather RP accent, I am told. I'll make that
> "とうきょう" if you're having trouble understanding what I wrote.
The trouble is caused by the perversion of the post-vocalic r that the Brits
invented a couple of hundred years ago, well after W. Shakespeare's day, and
which the southern colonials slavishly mimic. Why bother having the letter
if you're not going to use it for any sensible purpose?
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
pantssea...@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
Vanya
> Sceadu wrote:
> > Lately I've noticed that some people pronounce the "h" in ひ with some
> > friction, almost like "ch" in German "ich." Is it proper to try emulating
> > this?
>
> Absolutely! ひ is almost exactly "ich" backwards.
>
In Osaka, where the best Japanese is spoken, the "h" sound in "hito"
is closer to English "sh". If you use a Cologne German pronunciation
of "ch" you might want to emulate that instead.