Review of the Nintendo DS Kanji Sonomama Rakubiki Jiten Dictionary Cartridge for Japanese learners
David Chien
Basically, pen input dictionary for the Nintendo DS.
Phil Yff
> Ongoing review at http://www.silverace.com/japanese/ejd/
>
> Basically, pen input dictionary for the Nintendo DS.
It's a neat gimmick and not a bad dictionary. However, IMHO, for the
serious student, it's best to get a dedicated electronic dictionary and
play games on the Nintendo DS.
Phil Yff
linderd
However:
Dictionary with pen kanji input: 40000+ yen.
DS Lite: 17000 Yen.
Dictionary software: 5400 Yen.
Most electronic dictionaries you buy for the 30k+ yen mark havea huge
number of useless dictionaries in them; korean / japanese, korean /
chinese, chinese / japanese, flemmish / japanese. The dictionaries used
by the DS are actually the same dictionaries as the ones used by my
friends 40K electronic dictionary (except his also has a bunch of
korean-korean and chinese-chinese dictionaries on it as well).
So, I don't agree. The DS dictionary is a cheap and useful tool for
students; several of my teachers have expressed the desire to get one,
because of the useful kanji input, that normally only comes in Very
Expensive electronic dictionaries.
Incidentally: The kanji recognition in the DS is interesting; it must
use an interesting way of searching through strokes / breaking up
sequences of input into strokes to find entries; even if you write the
kanji in completely the wrong stroke order, or random stroke order, the
device often manages to find the kanji. It can even recognize
short-hand (where the entire kanji is one stroke) most of the time.
ciao,
Doug.
Phil Yff
> Phil Yff wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:02:06 -0700, David Chien wrote:
>>
>>> Ongoing review at http://www.silverace.com/japanese/ejd/
>>>
>>> Basically, pen input dictionary for the Nintendo DS.
>>
>> It's a neat gimmick and not a bad dictionary. However, IMHO, for the
>> serious student, it's best to get a dedicated electronic dictionary and
>> play games on the Nintendo DS.
>>
>> Phil Yff
>
> However:
>
> Dictionary with pen kanji input: 40000+ yen.
>
> DS Lite: 17000 Yen.
> Dictionary software: 5400 Yen.
>
I, personally, prefer a conventional electronic dictionary without the pen
kanji input. My favorite is the Canon Wordtank G50 which can now be bought
for about the same price as the DS. However, for those who require pen
kanji input, I would recommend the PDA route. You can get a good PDA for a
comparable price to the DS. Not only do most Japanese PDAs come with good
dictionary support, but you have a very wide range of software to augment
the dictionary.
If you are not interested in a dictionary but like to play games, I think
the DS is great. With the modest investment of 5400 yen you now have a
good dictionary tool. On the other hand, as good as the DS's dictionary
is, for the serious student, dedicated electronic dictionaries (including
those priced comparably to the DS) and PDAs provide an order of magnitude
better support for the serious language student.
Phil Yff
re...@benchsumo.zzn.com
> If you are not interested in a dictionary but like to play games, I think
> the DS is great. With the modest investment of 5400 yen you now have a
> good dictionary tool. On the other hand, as good as the DS's dictionary
> is, for the serious student, dedicated electronic dictionaries (including
> those priced comparably to the DS) and PDAs provide an order of magnitude
> better support for the serious language student.
>
> Phil Yff
How, exactly?
I have a Casio XD-FP6800. Retails for about 26,000 yen. There are
four primary dictionaries I use it for: the E-J, the J-E, the Kokugo,
and the Kanwa. I daresay these are the four kinds of dictionaries any
serious student requires.
The J-E is the ジーニアス和英辞典、第２版. Same as the
DS.
The E-J is the ジーニアス英和辞典、第３版. Same as the
DS.
The Kokugo is 広辞苑、第五版. The DS goes with the
明鏡国語辞典. Perhaps a slight advantage to the Casio for
comprehensiveness, (230,000 entries vs 70,000), but OTOH the Koujien is
known for being a bit historically-minded, while the Meikyou is
designed for modern practicality. Koujien is probably good for amateur
linguists (like me), while the Meikyou is probably better for someone
trying to get a handle on the modern language.
The Kanwa is 漢字源. As near as I can tell, the DS has no kanji
dictionary as such, but a multitude of search functions that let the
student check its other dictionaries. Here, perhaps the "serious"
student is served by having the Kanjigen, with its historical
explanations and etymologies. OTOH, in terms of practicality, more
often than not once I look up a kanji, I jump to then the Koujien or
the Genius J-E to learn what it means. In particular, I'm often
frustrated by Kanjigen's paucity of compounds, especially kun-yomi
compounds. Tying kanji look-up functionality into a kokugo and/or J-E
seems very practical and functional to me.
My Casio also contains a myriad of other dictionaries of some use:
言葉選び辞典、カタカナ語新辞典、全訳古語辞典、ことわざ字典、四字熟語辞典.
A case can certainly made that a serious student would need these
dictionaries. It also has a bunch of dictionaries/phrasebooks I've
hardly ever used, and an encyclopedia I've paged through on occassion,
for kicks and giggles. The DS, OTOH, has a Japanese quiz, English
vocab exercises, some games, and some miscellaneous functions
(calculator, calendar, alarm clock, etc.) Linguistically, the Casio
has the greater resources. It also has the greater price tag.
Finally, let's consider what we mean by "serious", and why we use these
dictionaries. Does "serious" mean a Japanese major, or a grad student?
Or, is it someone trying to learn the language to the highest level of
functionality they can reach? Why do they need a dictionary? Is it to
look up words on the fly? In that case, I think the DS more than
satisfies that person's needs. Is it for reading and research? The DS
won't hold up. But in that case the student may be better off buying
some specialized paper dictionaries, for use in the comfort of their
own home. Or, alternatively utilizing internet resources: WWWJDIC, the
Daijirin on Goo, Eijiro, etc.
Electronic dictionaries, IMO, occupy a strange middle ground at the
moment. They provide more functionality than really needed for the
typical student of Japanese, and are yet still too general for things
beyond everyday use. When I'm reading classical Japanese, I think I'l
go with my paper Kogorin (36,000 entries) than my Casio's Obunsha Kogo
Jiten (22,000 entries). (But then, I'm old school.) It seems to me
that in the rush for the electronic dictionaries to add more and more
dictionaries, they sacrifice depth for breadth.
And then, there's cost. If one already has a Nintendo DS and is using
it, the software is a bargain compared to even the most reasonable
electronic dictionaries. Especially for students overseas. The
electronic dictionaries offer a lot in raw value, but I'm not sure they
offer much more in terms of *practical* value. That is, if I count all
the dictionaries and functions my Casio has and compare them to the DS,
I get more bang for my yen. But if I consider how I use my Casio,
suddenly the difference is not all that great. Most serious students,
I think, are going to have a small library of paper dictionaries
rendering much of the functionality of their electronic dictionaries
somewhat redundant. The electronic dictionary is useful for carrying
out of the house and for quick-look-ups. I think the DS can easily and
completely fulfill that role, and at an affordable cost.
And all that's without, of course, considering the direct writing
interface the DS has.
Well, that's my take. I'd be interested in hearing how exactly you
define "serious", and what you think the electronic dictionaries offer
that the DS doesn't.
Josh Reyer
Paul D
> Phil Yff wrote:
>
>> If you are not interested in a dictionary but like to play games, I think
>> the DS is great. With the modest investment of 5400 yen you now have a
>> good dictionary tool. On the other hand, as good as the DS's dictionary
>> is, for the serious student, dedicated electronic dictionaries (including
>> those priced comparably to the DS) and PDAs provide an order of magnitude
>> better support for the serious language student.
>>
>> Phil Yff
>
> How, exactly?
>
> I have a Casio XD-FP6800. Retails for about 26,000 yen. There are
> four primary dictionaries I use it for: the E-J, the J-E, the Kokugo,
> and the Kanwa. I daresay these are the four kinds of dictionaries any
> serious student requires.
I absolutely require handwritten kanji input. The Casio XD-FP6800
doesn't seem to offer that, which is why I use my DS as a dictionary
(for the time being).
As for Phil's suggestion of a PDA, PDAs (in my experience) tend to be
too slow, clumsy, and finicky for a single dedicated purpose like a
dictionary — not to mention lacklustre battery life. I just want
something to turn on and have working instantly. The DS's instant sleep
/ instant wake is great.
Paul
Phil Yff
>
> Well, that's my take. I'd be interested in hearing how exactly you
> define "serious", and what you think the electronic dictionaries offer
> that the DS doesn't.
>
that reason. I know each person has different criteria for selecting a
dictionary. One of my criteria is the Kojien. When I can't find a word in
the Jap-Eng dictionary, I can almost always find it in the Kojien. Another
must-have dictionary from my perspective is the Kanjigen. Almost all
electronic dictionaries include it. I'm puzzled why the DS does not.
Finally, I prefer a keyboard (or more accurately keypad) to a stylus so the
DS does not have the user interface I prefer.
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
> On 2006-10-10 11:17:17 +0900, re...@benchsumo.zzn.com said:
>
>> Phil Yff wrote:
>>
>>> If you are not interested in a dictionary but like to play games, I think
>>> the DS is great. With the modest investment of 5400 yen you now have a
>>> good dictionary tool. On the other hand, as good as the DS's dictionary
>>> is, for the serious student, dedicated electronic dictionaries (including
>>> those priced comparably to the DS) and PDAs provide an order of magnitude
>>> better support for the serious language student.
>>>
>>> Phil Yff
>
> I absolutely require handwritten kanji input. The Casio XD-FP6800
> doesn't seem to offer that, which is why I use my DS as a dictionary
> (for the time being).
>
> As for Phil's suggestion of a PDA, PDAs (in my experience) tend to be
> too slow, clumsy, and finicky for a single dedicated purpose like a
> dictionary — not to mention lacklustre battery life. I just want
> something to turn on and have working instantly. The DS's instant sleep
> / instant wake is great.
>
With regards to handwritten kanji input, I'm just the opposite. I don't
require it in an ED. Even on the computer where I have it available, I
almost never use it.
At one point, I thought a PDA would be a step up. You could look up words,
store their definitions in a notepad file, and upload to your PC. However,
like you I found the PDAs to be slow and clumsy. Although almost all the
Japanese PDAs included dictionary support, only a couple included formal
published dictionaries like the Kojien. Thus, one would need additional
software. Finally, I'm not really a stylus person. I like a keypad.
There were a few PDAs, like some of the SHARPs, that came with keypads.
However, they were much harder to use than the average dedicated ED.
Phil Yff
Peter Maydell
> Most serious students,
> I think, are going to have a small library of paper dictionaries
> rendering much of the functionality of their electronic dictionaries
> somewhat redundant.
I guess I'm just not a serious student :-)
I'd much rather have electronic lookup; it's faster and you can
trivially look up the same word in three different dictionaries
and a set of example sentences...
-- PMM
re...@benchsumo.zzn.com
Peter Maydell wrote:
> re...@benchsumo.zzn.com wrote:
> > Most serious students,
> > I think, are going to have a small library of paper dictionaries
> > rendering much of the functionality of their electronic dictionaries
> > somewhat redundant.
>
> I guess I'm just not a serious student :-)
Or not most.
> I'd much rather have electronic lookup; it's faster and you can
> trivially look up the same word in three different dictionaries
> and a set of example sentences...
Well, back in the day I used to be pretty speedy with my Nelson. About
as fast as I am now with my Casio. It helped that I had many of the
common radicals memorized, via constant look-up.
I don't have my Nelson on hand at the moment - do I have these right?
手 - 34
心 - 61
木 - 75
水 - 85
火 - 86
Probably not... :-) I can't believe I can't remember 人 or where the
大・女・子 sequence was...
Josh Reyer
re...@benchsumo.zzn.com
Paul D wrote:
> On 2006-10-10 11:17:17 +0900, re...@benchsumo.zzn.com said:
> > I have a Casio XD-FP6800. Retails for about 26,000 yen. There are
> > four primary dictionaries I use it for: the E-J, the J-E, the Kokugo,
> > and the Kanwa. I daresay these are the four kinds of dictionaries any
> > serious student requires.
>
> I absolutely require handwritten kanji input. The Casio XD-FP6800
> doesn't seem to offer that, which is why I use my DS as a dictionary
> (for the time being).
No, the XD-FP6800 is pretty stripped down: no handwritten kanji input,
no voice features. Just a bunch of dictionaries for a cheap price,
which is why I got it. Plus I could get a discount. It's not state of
the art, and probably not even baseline now. I just made the
comparison because it was what I had in hand and seemed fairly
indicative of the dictionaries out there.
I'll admit to a certain fossilization. Mainly I don't want to go to a
handwritten interface because I don't want abandon that hard learned
and hard internalized radical knowledge I got in school. Even now when
I come across an unfamiliar character, part of my brain automatically
starts dissecting its parts, considering the radical, even if I don't
end up looking it up. I should have seen the writing on the wall when
I found myself not using the New Nelson's Universal Radical Index as
much as I thought I would. Everytime I looked up a kanji by the three
marks at the top 学, I felt a little dirty inside. :-)
Josh Reyer
Phil Yff
What's really neat with an ED is looking up a kanji compound in a phonetic
dictionary either by using a pad and stylus or drag and dropping on a
computer.
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
A lookup feature on the electronic Kanjigen that I use a lot is the 'parts'
feature. If you recognize a part or parts of a more complex kanji you can
type it in the 'parts' window. If you recognize more than one part, you
separate the parts by '&'. It doesn't matter whether you use the On or Kun
readings and you can mix and match. The resulting display is sorted by
stroke count and by radical so it's easy to scroll down and find your
kanji.
Phil Yff
Bart Mathias
> [...]
> I don't have my Nelson on hand at the moment - do I have these right?
>
> 手 - 34
> 心 - 61
> 木 - 75
> 水 - 85
> 火 - 86
>
> Probably not... :-) I can't believe I can't remember 人 or where the
> 大・女・子 sequence was...
They say that Alzheimer's tends to bring back one's early memories, so
I'm looking to recover those numbers soon.
Except for 手 (64, I'm pretty sure--it has to be after the first
four-stroker, 心) you've got them right (Wow! I'm already starting to
remember?).
人 is 9. I think 大・女・子 *is* the sequence, and one of them (女) is
approximately 37.
This is fun. Anybody remember Boodberg's alphbetical codes for these
things? Like 水 was (maybe) "aq"?
Bart
David Chien
> DS does not have the user interface I prefer.
Although for those that need it, you can pop up the
roman/hiragana/katakana on-screen keyboard for rapid entry if you prefer
that method....
David Chien
> too slow, clumsy, and finicky for a single dedicated purpose like a
> dictionary — not to mention lacklustre battery life. I just want
> something to turn on and have working instantly. The DS's instant sleep
> / instant wake is great.
The closest here are the Sharp Zaurus B&W PDAs from years ago - they
have handwritten kanji input and last a long time on batteries.
http://www.greggman.com/japan/mobilez/mobilez.htm
(The color models, older or newer, only last a few hours.) Seiko or
Casio I think also has a very simple pen input dictionary - you can draw
the kanji on screen and look up entries - but very basic dictionaries at
a price double that of the DS cartridge.
I agree with the speed of the DS system - instant startup, fast kanji
input, rapid lookup of entries and scrolling through them. And
excellent battery life as well -- weeks if you run it on the lower
brightness settings.
David Chien
Almost all of the older models made by Casio, Canon, Seiko, Sony,etc.
can be had for 15,000 Yen or cheaper in Tokyo. Akihabara is one of the
best places -- just a step out of the JR stop you've got LAOX and other
stores that carry these slightly older models for close-out sale prices.
Bic Camera also has sales -- at Yurakucho's Bic, I saw a very nice
Seiko going for 8,900 Yen just because it was last year's model; and
they had a sale on some other basic model for around 5,000 Yen.
Jimbocho is another great place - yes, you'd think lots of books, lots
of ski gear shops, but there's a few shops on their main street (Forgot
exactly where, but there's that one combo bookstore + electronics shop
on the corner where the main street bends towards the east next to the
mcdonald's south of all of those other ski shops on that main street...)
where they carry these dirt-cheap as well.
Heck, even here, after getting the nice DS dictionary, I'm trying to
dump my own Sharp S7100:
http://www.sharp.co.jp/products/pws7100/index.html
but find that it's depreciated quite a bit....
> I'll admit to a certain fossilization. Mainly I don't want to go to a
> handwritten interface because I don't want abandon that hard learned
> and hard internalized radical knowledge I got in school. Even now when
Funny, guess coming from a Chinese background, I don't even think for
a moment about losing this -- it's so natural, there's no way I'd
forget. And not even a concern when using the pen input either -- guess
my brain on first glance has already picked out all it can from the
shape, radicals, and context -- so when I'm at the dictionary, I really
don't know the word.
I think some researchers did studies and found that when you're at a
decent reading level, you're not looking at the strokes or tiny parts of
the characters, but at the overall shapes and density occupied by them.
That's why people can still 'read' those itsy-bitsy print on Japanese
packages -- they recognize the shapes and assume a lot from context.
In English, I think it was what? either the top half or the bottom
half of a sentence that had been covered up, and people recognized the
sentence well from just one half (but not the other, which suggests that
most of the information is encoded in one half of the character).
Phil Yff
To me, it's still stylus input. I like pressing keys. I can work an ED
pretty much by touch. Thus, I can focus on the text I'm reading and glance
at the dictionary to read the word. I haven't found a stylus input, to
include my tablet PC, that doesn't require a great deal more attention to
the input process.
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
>> No, the XD-FP6800 is pretty stripped down: no handwritten kanji input,
>
> Almost all of the older models made by Casio, Canon, Seiko, Sony,etc.
> can be had for 15,000 Yen or cheaper in Tokyo. Akihabara is one of the
> best places -- just a step out of the JR stop you've got LAOX and other
> stores that carry these slightly older models for close-out sale prices.
>
The big Ishimaru and LAOX stores across the main street from the train
station have good dictionary selections and sell duty free to non-residents
of Japan if the purchase price exceeds 10,000 yen. However, generally
their sales people don't have detailed knowledge of the electronic
dictionaries. The people with stalls right on the street (many of them are
on the same block as the train station) tend to be quite knowledgeable of
their products and they've been willing to spend hours with me comparing
different makes and models. Unfortunately, most of them do not provide
duty free sales, although I suppose you could get the tax back by filling
out some paperwork.
Once you've got your dictionary you can go down the street and buy video
games, movies, books, manga, and other material to give you plenty of words
to look up.
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
What I would really like to see in the DS is to be able to load the
dictionary and a game at the same time and toggle back and forth using a
hot key. That way you could play an RPG and look up words.
Phil Yff
Paul D
>> I'll admit to a certain fossilization. Mainly I don't want to go to a
>> handwritten interface because I don't want abandon that hard learned
>> and hard internalized radical knowledge I got in school. Even now when
>
> Funny, guess coming from a Chinese background, I don't even think for
> a moment about losing this -- it's so natural, there's no way I'd
> forget. And not even a concern when using the pen input either -- guess
> my brain on first glance has already picked out all it can from the
> shape, radicals, and context -- so when I'm at the dictionary, I really
> don't know the word.
No one worries about this when handwriting on paper anyway, so the
concern about magically losing one's radical knowledge thanks to a more
natural interface seems strange to me.
And then there are kanji that just don't break down into radicals
nicely. And radical look-up always takes longer anyway. I can scrawl an
unknown kanji in two seconds in my DS while I'm reading. Radical-based
lookup would take too long.
>
> I think some researchers did studies and found that when you're at a
> decent reading level, you're not looking at the strokes or tiny parts of
> the characters, but at the overall shapes and density occupied by them.
> That's why people can still 'read' those itsy-bitsy print on Japanese
> packages -- they recognize the shapes and assume a lot from context.
> In English, I think it was what? either the top half or the bottom
> half of a sentence that had been covered up, and people recognized the
> sentence well from just one half (but not the other, which suggests that
> most of the information is encoded in one half of the character).
Yes, it is natural for all literate people to read by recognizing word
shapes, even if the word is composed of phonetic components. A typical
English-speaking child is no longer reading words phonetically by the
age of 7 or 8, I believe. In fact, the eyes of competent readers don't
even centre on every word when reading. They skip to several spots each
line of text, and the eye's parafovea takes in the shapes of the
surrounding words.
Because lowercase Latin letters are aligned to a baseline and tend to
have a more varied upper shape, it is the shape of the upper half of
words that we depend on the most when reading. Also for this reason,
immersive reading in Latin languages is much easier when the text is in
lowercase than when it is in uppercase.
Naturally, the precise situation will differ for each writing system.
Paul
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>Dictionary with pen kanji input: 40000+ yen.
If you live in Japan you will never pay that much for it. By using
kakaku.com I got a dictionary with a catalog price of 47,000 yen for
less than 20,000 yen, with free shipping.
-Chris
David Chien
> kakaku.com I got a dictionary with a catalog price of 47,000 yen for
> less than 20,000 yen, with free shipping.
Also, there's the Softmap 4 was it striaght at the end of the short
street out the JR Akihabara for used dictionaries on display there (lots
of good, used computers as well at cheap prices -- although nothing
beats the latest $199-399 laptop sales in the USA), and
auctions.yahoo.co.jp (extremely cheap EJDs!).
David Chien
> dictionary and a game at the same time and toggle back and forth using a
> hot key. That way you could play an RPG and look up words.
No multitasking as such on the DS yet, but you can load up both on a
programmable DS Flash Cartrdige and multi-boot between the two.
http://www.gameboy-advance.net/nintendo_ds/nds_flash_card.htm
G6 and others will do this, and let you play MP3 music, watch movies,
read text, etc on the DS.
Phil Yff
I'm interested mostly as a language learning tool. Playing RPG games is a
great way to pick up vocabulary and sentence structures. It would be neat
to have an imbedded dictionary available while you are playing the game.
Phil Yff
Louise Bremner
That would only be useful if you can somehow copy text from the Flash
Cartridge and paste it into the dictionary (or if you had a perfect
visual memory, of course). So far as I can see, there's no way to
connect between them.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Phil Yff
>>
>> I'm interested mostly as a language learning tool. Playing RPG games is a
>> great way to pick up vocabulary and sentence structures. It would be neat
>> to have an imbedded dictionary available while you are playing the game.
>
> That would only be useful if you can somehow copy text from the Flash
> Cartridge and paste it into the dictionary (or if you had a perfect
> visual memory, of course). So far as I can see, there's no way to
> connect between them.
>
does allow you to design a dictionary that would be resident in memory
while another application, such as a game, is running. There are even ways
of programming it such that you would not even have to use a flash card.
One, of several possible approaches, would work as follows.
You insert the dictionary card into the DS and turn on the device. The
dictionary loads in memory and prompts you to remove the card and insert
the game card. The game loads and you play it as normal. When you want to
look up a word, you press the hot key or hot key sequence to invoke the
dictionary. The dictionary could even be designed so that you could
highlight text in the game and hit the hot key for the dictionary to give
its meaning (it would have to be text and not writing using graphics).
Since games, these days, tend to be designed in a structured, modular
fashion with delineated text files, this feature is very doable. The
interface could be made even more elegant once standards and protocols are
established regarding embedded dictionary support.
This assumes that your game does not hog all the available memory. Well
designed games do not. Additionally, although the scenarion I provided
does not use a flash card, the flash card alternative would provide better
performance. Using a flash card, you would only have to load a small
kernel in memory rather than an entire dictionary program. If neither the
game nor the dictionary are memory hogs, the DS performs best.
Mata ato de,
Phil Yff
Louise Bremner
> However, the DS architecture does allow you to design a dictionary that
> would be resident in memory while another application, such as a game, is
> running.
Please point me to a specific way of doing so....
> There are even ways of programming it such that you would not even have to
> use a flash card. One, of several possible approaches, would work as
> follows.
Just speculation, so far? Is anyone actually working on this?
Phil Yff
> Phil Yff <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> However, the DS architecture does allow you to design a dictionary that
>> would be resident in memory while another application, such as a game, is
>> running.
>
> Please point me to a specific way of doing so....
>
>> There are even ways of programming it such that you would not even have to
>> use a flash card. One, of several possible approaches, would work as
>> follows.
>
> Just speculation, so far? Is anyone actually working on this?
My guess is that the dictionary designers made their choice whether through
conscious deliberation or not considering all the alternatives. I suppose
people like me who want a dictionary to look up words in a DS game are a
very small minority.
Although the approach I suggested above is very doable, it also requires
more complex and disciplined programming skills. For a gaming platform, it
generally takes developers about two years before they optimize their
programming skills. Accordingly, I certainly would not chastise a
dictionary developer to start simple. Nevertheless, for such a small
device, the DS is an extremely powerful platform. I am confident that in a
year or two we will start to see the development of programs that can run
simultaneously.
Phil Yff
Louise Bremner
> I am confident that in a year or two we will start to see the development
> of programs that can run simultaneously.
Yeah, well, I'd prefer to have something real that I can use now, rather
than just think "that'll be nice".
linderd
Rubbish.
There are ED stands in almost every department store that have prices
which are 20K+ yen. Dictionaries with pad input are usually above the
30K yen mark.
While you CAN get a dictionary for less online or second hand, saying
"you will never pay that much for it" is obviously untrue. When we
first arrived in Japan one of the first things we did was go into osaka
and go shopping. My friend bought a 42,052 yen (he still has the tag,
what the hell was the 52 yen? :P cant remember why) electronic
dictionary that day.
Maybe it wasn't worth it? Who knows. He uses it all the time, and his
DS only occasionally. PERHAPS that version of the dictionary is
available online somewhere... for less. Possibly much less.
Anyway.
ciao,
Doug.
Phil Yff
> Phil Yff <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> I am confident that in a year or two we will start to see the development
>> of programs that can run simultaneously.
>
> Yeah, well, I'd prefer to have something real that I can use now, rather
> than just think "that'll be nice".
Well, since I believe you said in another post that you already have the
DS, I think you should get the dictionary if you haven't already done so.
It's a very powerful dictionary and there's a certain amount of educational
stuff available already and more on the way in the coming months.
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
The Nintendo DS has some interesting features that support multitasking.
For example, several players can play a multi-player game, although only
one player has the game card. The information for the other players is
paged in and paged out through the wireless link. The fact that the DS can
do this type of memory management with good performance means that it is
well suited to swapping between more than one program.
The DS also has two inputs - one for Gameboy Advance cartridges, the other
for DS cards. The unit has some sophisticated capabilities to share info
between the inputs. For example, if you put the DS Castelvania game in the
DS slot and the corresponding Gameboy Advance game in the Advance slot, the
DS game picks up information from the Advance cartridge. As of now, the
capability has been used only to provide additional content to the DS game
but it has the potential to do more.
Finally, the DS is a two screen unit. The architecture and design of the
system invite multi-tasking. A dictionary would have been the ideal
multi-tasking application. It's a shame the developers chose to forego the
opportunity.
Phil Yff
Louise Bremner
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:12:39 GMT, Louise Bremner wrote:
>
> > Phil Yff <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I am confident that in a year or two we will start to see the development
> >> of programs that can run simultaneously.
> >
> > Yeah, well, I'd prefer to have something real that I can use now, rather
> > than just think "that'll be nice".
>
> Well, since I believe you said in another post that you already have the
> DS, I think you should get the dictionary if you haven't already done so.
Yes. In an earlier post or three I did indeed say I have got that
dictionary--it was the reason why I bought the DS Lite in the first
place.
> It's a very powerful dictionary and there's a certain amount of educational
> stuff available already and more on the way in the coming months.
Yes. In a couple of earlier posts, I have mentioned some of them (but
admittedly I mightn't have mentioned how many of them I've
bought--should I list them all, for reference?). This is why I am well
aware of the hassle of having to switch off the machine and restart
every time I change "games" on the machine.
Phil Yff
> Yes. In a couple of earlier posts, I have mentioned some of them (but
> admittedly I mightn't have mentioned how many of them I've
> bought--should I list them all, for reference?). This is why I am well
> aware of the hassle of having to switch off the machine and restart
> every time I change "games" on the machine.
>
Yes, I'd be interested in what software you have for the DS because you
told me in an earlier post you didn't want to get games. By any chance do
you have やわらかあたま塾 (Yawaraka Atamajuku - Big Brain Academy) and/or its
sequel which is kind of a cross between educational and game software?
Phil Yff
Louise Bremner
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:02:17 GMT, Louise Bremner wrote:
>
> > Yes. In a couple of earlier posts, I have mentioned some of them (but
> > admittedly I mightn't have mentioned how many of them I've
> > bought--should I list them all, for reference?). This is why I am well
> > aware of the hassle of having to switch off the machine and restart
> > every time I change "games" on the machine.
> >
> Yes, I'd be interested in what software you have for the DS because you
> told me in an earlier post you didn't want to get games.
I did buy one game--yet another implementation of Fotland's Many Faces
of Go. It's unlikely I'll be wasting much time on that one, though (you
think I'd've learnt, but I still keep buying them).
> By any chance do you have ???????? (Yawaraka Atamajuku - Big Brain
> Academy) and/or its sequel which is kind of a cross between educational
> and game software?
Not that one, but:
<http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B000BRYNUU/ref=pd_bxgy_vg_img_b/503-
3105852-2509542?ie=UTF8>
From the packaging, it seems to have more kanji-training games than its
prequel, but that might just be selective promotion.
When I get that proverbial Round Tuit, I might fake up enough enthusiasm
to write something on each of the six packages I've bought so far (and
maybe a couple more I'm looking at).
Phil Yff
> I did buy one game--yet another implementation of Fotland's Many Faces
> of Go. It's unlikely I'll be wasting much time on that one, though (you
> think I'd've learnt, but I still keep buying them).
I'm actually intersted in a good game of Go. I just finished the 23rd and
final volume of the manga, Hikaru no Go. I still don't know how to play
the game, though, and was interested in something I could use to learn the
basics.
Phil Yff
Louise Bremner
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:38:40 GMT, Louise Bremner wrote:
>
> > I did buy one game--yet another implementation of Fotland's Many Faces
> > of Go. It's unlikely I'll be wasting much time on that one, though (you
> > think I'd've learnt, but I still keep buying them).
>
> I'm actually intersted in a good game of Go. I just finished the 23rd and
> final volume of the manga, Hikaru no Go.
Don't worry--you'll recover.
> I still don't know how to play the game, though, and was interested in
> something I could use to learn the basics.
A good tutorial: <http://playgo.to/interactive/>
Then, if you aren't near a real-life club, log into one of the go
servers so you can play against real people. I'll admit I'm biased in
this case, but there's:
Or you could try: <http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/>
Warning: Do not chose a username that has "Hikaru" or "Sai" or anything
similar in it....
Phil Yff
> Phil Yff <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:38:40 GMT, Louise Bremner wrote:
>>
>>> I did buy one game--yet another implementation of Fotland's Many Faces
>>> of Go. It's unlikely I'll be wasting much time on that one, though (you
>>> think I'd've learnt, but I still keep buying them).
>>
>> I'm actually intersted in a good game of Go. I just finished the 23rd and
>> final volume of the manga, Hikaru no Go.
>
> Don't worry--you'll recover.
>
>> I still don't know how to play the game, though, and was interested in
>> something I could use to learn the basics.
>
> A good tutorial: <http://playgo.to/interactive/>
>
> Then, if you aren't near a real-life club, log into one of the go
> servers so you can play against real people. I'll admit I'm biased in
> this case, but there's:
>
> <http://www.gokgs.com/>
>
> Or you could try: <http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/>
>
> Warning: Do not chose a username that has "Hikaru" or "Sai" or anything
> similar in it....
Thanks for the info. I see you're familiar with the series. All I know
about the game is reading the manga and watching the anime. I certainly
would not be bold enough to use Sai or Hikaru.
Thanks again,
Phil Yff
Louise Bremner
> > Warning: Do not chose a username that has "Hikaru" or "Sai" or anything
> > similar in it....
>
> Thanks for the info. I see you're familiar with the series.
Yup. I've even read it for comprehension....
> All I know about the game is reading the manga and watching the anime. I
> certainly would not be bold enough to use Sai or Hikaru.
That would be unusual--it's amazing the number of kiddies who claim to
have been inspired by the manga (or, more usually, the anime), pick a
name such as Hikaru3671, start a game and just sit there waiting for Sai
to take over and play for them.
Six months later, they have a solid 30k (i.e., beginner's) rank but
they're still babbling on and on about how they are going to become a
pro and discover "the Hand of God".
Phil Yff
> Phil Yff <phil...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>> Warning: Do not chose a username that has "Hikaru" or "Sai" or anything
>>> similar in it....
>>
>> Thanks for the info. I see you're familiar with the series.
>
> Yup. I've even read it for comprehension....
>
>> All I know about the game is reading the manga and watching the anime. I
>> certainly would not be bold enough to use Sai or Hikaru.
>
> That would be unusual--it's amazing the number of kiddies who claim to
> have been inspired by the manga (or, more usually, the anime), pick a
> name such as Hikaru3671, start a game and just sit there waiting for Sai
> to take over and play for them.
>
> Six months later, they have a solid 30k (i.e., beginner's) rank but
> they're still babbling on and on about how they are going to become a
> pro and discover "the Hand of God".
Since I have one grandchild and another on the way, I'm more like Hikaru's
grandfather than Hikaru. I'm even mature enough that if I were to develop a
beginner's proficiency I would not exploit the naive players like
HIkaru3671. (笑)
Phil Yff
koy...@gmail.com
I am trying to get this casio xdf6600bk but i am not sure how to find
any online shop that can export this out of japan... DO you know
anythin that may help me? Do email me if you know thanks.
kyo
re...@benchsumo.zzn.com wrote:
> Phil Yff wrote:
>
> > If you are not interested in a dictionary but like to play games, I think
> > the DS is great. With the modest investment of 5400 yen you now have a
> > good dictionary tool. On the other hand, as good as the DS's dictionary
> > is, for the serious student, dedicated electronic dictionaries (including
> > those priced comparably to the DS) and PDAs provide an order of magnitude
> > better support for the serious language student.
> >
> > Phil Yff
>
> How, exactly?
>
> I have a Casio XD-FP6800. Retails for about 26,000 yen. There are
> four primary dictionaries I use it for: the E-J, the J-E, the Kokugo,
> and the Kanwa. I daresay these are the four kinds of dictionaries any
> serious student requires.
>
> The J-E is the ジーニアス和英辞典、第２版. Same as the
> DS.
>
> The E-J is the ジーニアス英和辞典、第３版. Same as the
> DS.
>
> The Kokugo is 広辞苑、第五版. The DS goes with the
> 明鏡国語辞典. Perhaps a slight advantage to the Casio for
> comprehensiveness, (230,000 entries vs 70,000), but OTOH the Koujien is
> known for being a bit historically-minded, while the Meikyou is
> designed for modern practicality. Koujien is probably good for amateur
> linguists (like me), while the Meikyou is probably better for someone
> trying to get a handle on the modern language.
>
> The Kanwa is 漢字源. As near as I can tell, the DS has no kanji
> dictionary as such, but a multitude of search functions that let the
> student check its other dictionaries. Here, perhaps the "serious"
> student is served by having the Kanjigen, with its historical
> explanations and etymologies. OTOH, in terms of practicality, more
> often than not once I look up a kanji, I jump to then the Koujien or
> the Genius J-E to learn what it means. In particular, I'm often
> frustrated by Kanjigen's paucity of compounds, especially kun-yomi
> compounds. Tying kanji look-up functionality into a kokugo and/or J-E
> seems very practical and functional to me.
>
> My Casio also contains a myriad of other dictionaries of some use:
> 言葉選び辞典、カタカナ語新辞典、全訳古語辞典、ことわざ字典、四字熟語辞典.
> A case can certainly made that a serious student would need these
> dictionaries. It also has a bunch of dictionaries/phrasebooks I've
> hardly ever used, and an encyclopedia I've paged through on occassion,
> for kicks and giggles. The DS, OTOH, has a Japanese quiz, English
> vocab exercises, some games, and some miscellaneous functions
> (calculator, calendar, alarm clock, etc.) Linguistically, the Casio
> has the greater resources. It also has the greater price tag.
>
> Finally, let's consider what we mean by "serious", and why we use these
> dictionaries. Does "serious" mean a Japanese major, or a grad student?
> Or, is it someone trying to learn the language to the highest level of
> functionality they can reach? Why do they need a dictionary? Is it to
> look up words on the fly? In that case, I think the DS more than
> satisfies that person's needs. Is it for reading and research? The DS
> won't hold up. But in that case the student may be better off buying
> some specialized paper dictionaries, for use in the comfort of their
> own home. Or, alternatively utilizing internet resources: WWWJDIC, the
> Daijirin on Goo, Eijiro, etc.
>
> Electronic dictionaries, IMO, occupy a strange middle ground at the
> moment. They provide more functionality than really needed for the
> typical student of Japanese, and are yet still too general for things
> beyond everyday use. When I'm reading classical Japanese, I think I'l
> go with my paper Kogorin (36,000 entries) than my Casio's Obunsha Kogo
> Jiten (22,000 entries). (But then, I'm old school.) It seems to me
> that in the rush for the electronic dictionaries to add more and more
> dictionaries, they sacrifice depth for breadth.
>
> And then, there's cost. If one already has a Nintendo DS and is using
> it, the software is a bargain compared to even the most reasonable
> electronic dictionaries. Especially for students overseas. The
> electronic dictionaries offer a lot in raw value, but I'm not sure they
> offer much more in terms of *practical* value. That is, if I count all
> the dictionaries and functions my Casio has and compare them to the DS,
> I get more bang for my yen. But if I consider how I use my Casio,
> suddenly the difference is not all that great. Most serious students,
> I think, are going to have a small library of paper dictionaries
> rendering much of the functionality of their electronic dictionaries
> somewhat redundant. The electronic dictionary is useful for carrying
> out of the house and for quick-look-ups. I think the DS can easily and
> completely fulfill that role, and at an affordable cost.
>
> And all that's without, of course, considering the direct writing
> interface the DS has.
>
> Well, that's my take. I'd be interested in hearing how exactly you
> define "serious", and what you think the electronic dictionaries offer
> that the DS doesn't.
>
> Josh Reyer
David Chien
> I am trying to get this casio xdf6600bk but i am not sure how to find
> any online shop that can export this out of japan... DO you know
www.conics.net and www.dynamism.com can both help you.
conics.net works well for me.
Louise Bremner
> I am trying to get this casio xdf6600bk but i am not sure how to find
> any online shop that can export this out of japan...
<snip of unrelated full quote>
I'm researching something completely different at the moment, but I keep
coming across recommendations for this service:
<http://www.pricejapan.com/front/e_main_page.php>
The advantage being that they'll buy and ship any goodies that happen to
be available in Japan, at the lowest price they can find--not just the
limited range of products provided by other services.
David Chien
> coming across recommendations for this service:
>
> <http://www.pricejapan.com/front/e_main_page.php>
>
> The advantage being that they'll buy and ship any goodies that happen to
> be available in Japan, at the lowest price they can find--not just the
> limited range of products provided by other services.
www.conics.net can actually ship just about any electronics goods out
to you. Pretty much find it in the Bic Camera/Yodabashi/etc. listing
and they can get it for you.
---
Naturally, both are expensive for cheap items -- Price Japan charges
a minimum of 4000 Yen (that's ~$40 USD) minimum, and that's just their
fee and doesn't include the shipping charge to you!
So regardless of which one you choose, expect to spend some $$ just
to get those items from Japan.
---
That said, I've found www.conics.net to be reliable over the years,
and the other benefit of them vs. all others? Conics.net is the ONLY one
I know of that can also bid and buy off Yahoo Auctions Japan!
Thus, that XD-F6600 you're looking for is selling for as low as
14,000 Yen (~$140) on Yahoo Auctions vs. the $300+ it retailed for.
Keep in mind that the extra Yahoo Auctions shipping and bid costs to
send the item to conics.net, then to you will typically add about
25%-30% or so on top of the Yahoo Auctions price. (Which is still a
bargain given that the price on Yahoo Auctions is far lower than retail.)
---
(Of course, if you're buying much more expensive goods on a frequent
basis, you may want to fly into Tokyo and simply go on a mad shopping
spree instead....)
Louise Bremner
>> <koy...@gmail.com>:
>
>> > I am trying to get this casio xdf6600bk but i am not sure how to
>> > find any online shop that can export this out of japan...
> And I replied:
> > I'm researching something completely different at the moment, but I keep
> > coming across recommendations for this service:
> >
> > <http://www.pricejapan.com/front/e_main_page.php>
> >
> > The advantage being that they'll buy and ship any goodies that happen to
> > be available in Japan, at the lowest price they can find--not just the
> > limited range of products provided by other services.
>
> www.conics.net can actually ship just about any electronics goods out
> to you. Pretty much find it in the Bic Camera/Yodabashi/etc. listing
> and they can get it for you.
I suggested PriceJapan because I couldn't work out how to order the
specific unit that the OP wanted, from either site you recommended. I
can't find it at Yodobashi or Bic Camera either (it seems to be an older
model that's sold out in many of the links I Googled, so it's possible
he's out of luck anyway).
> Conics.net is the ONLY one
> I know of that can also bid and buy off Yahoo Auctions Japan!
That's useful to know (although I'd be wary of going that route myself).
David Chien
> specific unit that the OP wanted, from either site you recommended. I
That's easy for both conics.net and dynamism.com! Simply send them
an email as to what you want, then they'll get back to you with a full
quote. Then you send them money through PayPal, etc., and they order it
and ship it out to you.
> can't find it at Yodobashi or Bic Camera either (it seems to be an older
> model that's sold out in many of the links I Googled, so it's possible
> he's out of luck anyway).
Nah. The thing is that in Japan, Bic & Yodobashi only carry the
latest equipment -- once it's last quarter's stuff, they simply get rid
of all of that right away. But, being in Japan, you can easily walk
down the street to the next smaller electronics shop, and they'll carry
all of ... last quarter's stuff.
Unless it's a model that's so rare nobody has it, it's likely that
it'll be found and can be ordered.
>> Conics.net is the ONLY one
>> I know of that can also bid and buy off Yahoo Auctions Japan!
>
> That's useful to know (although I'd be wary of going that route myself).
Very reliable since conics.net acts as the go-between and almost all
Japanese are very reliable to deal with. You don't pay until he has the
item in hand, so you don't ever have to worry about anything that hasn't
been mailed correctly by the seller.
Also, some of the EJD's on sale in Yahoo Auctions are actually by
smaller electronics stores trying to get rid of their last remaining
stock of such, so they're very reliable to deal with.
Anyways, besides the Casio, looked at the latest Sharp Pen Input EJD?
http://www.sharp.co.jp/papyrus/lineup/pw-at750/index.html
True handwritten Kanji pen input for lookups across all of the main
dictionaries in this EJD!
Louise Bremner
> > I suggested PriceJapan because I couldn't work out how to order the
> > specific unit that the OP wanted, from either site you recommended. I
>
> That's easy for both conics.net and dynamism.com! Simply send them
> an email as to what you want, then they'll get back to you with a full
> quote.
Hmmmmm.... I wish they'd make that clear on their sites--they both
concentrate on the latest goodies on their main pages.
> Anyways, besides the Casio, looked at the latest Sharp Pen Input EJD?
> http://www.sharp.co.jp/papyrus/lineup/pw-at750/index.html
>
> True handwritten Kanji pen input for lookups across all of the main
> dictionaries in this EJD!
Yes, drat you--I wouldn't've known about it if you hadn't mentioned it.
It goes on sale today and I'm trying to resist the impulse to go into
town.
But I do have to go to the dentist on Friday and I have some other
errands to run in Shinjuku, so maybe I'll accidentally stop off at
Yodobashi on the way back.
Louise Bremner
> David Chien <chi...@uci.edu> wrote:
>
> > Anyways, besides the Casio, looked at the latest Sharp Pen Input EJD?
> > http://www.sharp.co.jp/papyrus/lineup/pw-at750/index.html
> >
> > True handwritten Kanji pen input for lookups across all of the main
> > dictionaries in this EJD!
>
> Yes, drat you--I wouldn't've known about it if you hadn't mentioned it.
> It goes on sale today and I'm trying to resist the impulse to go into
> town.
>
> But I do have to go to the dentist on Friday and I have some other
> errands to run in Shinjuku, so maybe I'll accidentally stop off at
> Yodobashi on the way back.
*sigh* That was a disappointment, to top off a totally wasted morning in
town.
The input window is a bit small, which wouldn't be too much of a problem
except that I found that the combination of the low resolution and the
thick screen made it difficult for me to write legibly enough to get my
characters recognised. So I had to rest the side on my hand on the lower
right side of the keyboard, but guess where the Enter key is? I kept
hitting Enter before I'd finished each character.
But the gaigin waiting for his turn with the demo model pointed out
(rather smugly, I thought) that it wouldn't be a problem with him, since
he's left-handed so would be pressing on the speaker instead.
I'll try again some other time, and maybe see if I can find some way to
rest the edge of my hand elsewhere....
David Chien
>>> http://www.sharp.co.jp/papyrus/lineup/pw-at750/index.html
> except that I found that the combination of the low resolution and the
> thick screen made it difficult for me to write legibly enough to get my
> characters recognised. So I had to rest the side on my hand on the lower
> right side of the keyboard, but guess where the Enter key is? I kept
lol!
Of course, any Japanese/Chinese would =never= have this problem given
that their trained from day one to hold the calligraphy brush in the air
w/o any other support when drawing characters. It's obvious that the
Sharp was designed for such users in mind since they'd be perfectly fine
holding the pen in the air w/o further support while writing Kanji.
Suppose if you =really= want to learn Japanese, it's more than just
knowing how to write, but also how to hold the writing instrument as well.
Louise Bremner
> >>> Anyways, besides the Casio, looked at the latest Sharp Pen Input EJD?
> >>> http://www.sharp.co.jp/papyrus/lineup/pw-at750/index.html
> > *sigh* That was a disappointment, to top off a totally wasted morning in
> > The input window is a bit small, which wouldn't be too much of a problem
> > except that I found that the combination of the low resolution and the
> > thick screen made it difficult for me to write legibly enough to get my
> > characters recognised. So I had to rest the side on my hand on the lower
> > right side of the keyboard, but guess where the Enter key is? I kept
>
> lol!
>
> Of course, any Japanese/Chinese would =never= have this problem given
> that their trained from day one to hold the calligraphy brush in the air
> w/o any other support when drawing characters. It's obvious that the
> Sharp was designed for such users in mind since they'd be perfectly fine
> holding the pen in the air w/o further support while writing Kanji.
Yup--the Japanese wife of the other gaigin pointed that out (again with
a certain amount of smugness, I felt)....
> Suppose if you =really= want to learn Japanese, it's more than just
> knowing how to write, but also how to hold the writing instrument as well.
Yeah, yeah, I _know_ that, but I suspect it's going to be too late for
me to learn how to do that. Even in English, my handwriting is so sloppy
I need such support.
re...@benchsumo.zzn.com
Louise Bremner wrote:
> But the gaigin waiting for his turn with the demo model pointed out
> (rather smugly, I thought) that it wouldn't be a problem with him, since
> he's left-handed so would be pressing on the speaker instead.
Cut him a little slack. We lefties so rarely have the opportunity to
be smug about being lefty... :-)
Josh Reyer
Louise Bremner
Since I have left-handed cousins and am aware of their problems in this
righty-dominated world, I was amused at the concept that this was one
way he could have an advantage. I thought his smugness was perfectly
justified.
Paul D
So true! My kanji writing instantly got better when I realized I had to
hold the pen erect instead of at a slant.
Paul