to naru versus ni naru according to Samuel E. Martin

[Ben Bullock]

I'm interested in the difference between to naru and ni naru.

According to Samuel E. Martin's Reference Grammar of Japanese (page
1020),

... many speakers appear to treat {N to naru} as a fancy or
semi-literary version of {N ni naru}, with no particular feeling of
the subjective versus the objective in spite of the difference in
choice of {to} or {ni}. If a difference is felt, the expression
with {to} will be used for situations that are less real, less
enduring, or less substantial-- to parallel the distinction of {to
suru} from {ni suru}.

However, I get a conflicting impression from things like this post:

http://nihongo-online.jp/tree21/treebbs.cgi?log=7346

■日本語教育辞典によると「になる」の「に」は変化の先をあらわし、「となる」の「と」は変化の結果を表すという記述があります。
■日本語文型辞典によると「『となる』は最終的な段階まで変化してしまったという含みがあるため、『にぎやか・元気』のような最終段階の決めにくい表現
には用いられにくい。『となる』はすべて『になる』にいいかえられるが、その反対はない」という説明になっています。

Would anyone care to comment?

[Shimpei Yamashita]

Both "to naru" and "ni naru" can be used in several different ways.
In some cases they are somewhat interchangeable (but not quite), in others not.

A sentence like "新幹線によって、飛行場は不要になる" is an example of
the former. However, even in this usage, there is an unambiguous
difference in connotation:

- "ni naru" stresses the PROCESS, in which building shinkansen makes the airport superfluous.
- to naru" stresses the RESULT that, due to the presence of the shinkansen, the airport has become superfluous.

This difference should be more clear-cut if you bother to look up the
particles "ni" and "to" in the dictionary. (My Sanseido J-J dictionary
gives multiple meanings for both, but the ones given for "ni"
emphasize motion and process, while the ones for "to" emphasize
result.)

Martin's treatment seems to gloss over this difference, and in fact
the passage you quote is incorrect in suggesting "to naru" is somehow
more ephemeral than "ni naru." In contemporary spoken and written
Japanese, the exact opposite is the case--"to naru" signals more
confidence in the result than "ni naru."

The situation mentioned in Nihongo Online is an example of the non-interchangeable scenario.
"to naru," signaling definite result, does not work well with
ambiguous subjective states of being like にぎやか and 元気 .

Shimpei.

[chance]

"Ben Bullock" <benkasmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:09f5bbdb-f7f1-41ed...@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...

1. このはなしはこれでおわりにする。
２．このはなしはこれでおわりとする。　

For my two cents,
both say the same thing of 'I will end this talk with this'
but, if insisted, 1 may involve a bit of 'will' of the speaker　
wile 2 may imply a bit of 'willy-nilly' hue, or 'superficiality',
imposed on the tone.

　　

[Ben Bullock]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:16:26 +0000, Shimpei Yamashita wrote:

> Both "to naru" and "ni naru" can be used in several different ways. In
> some cases they are somewhat interchangeable (but not quite), in others
> not.
>
> A senten
ce like "新幹線によって、飛行場は不要になる" is an example of the
former.
> However, even in this usage, there is an unambiguous difference in
> connotation:
>
> - "ni naru" stresses the PROCESS, in which building shinkansen makes the
> airport superfluous. - to naru" stresses the RESULT that, due to the
> presence of the shinkansen, the airport has become superfluous.
>
> This difference should be more clear-cut if you bother to look up the
> particles "ni" and "to" in the dictionary. (My Sanseido J-J dictionary
> gives multiple meanings for both, but the ones given for "ni" emphasize
> motion and process, while the ones for "to" emphasize result.)
>
> Martin's treatment seems to gloss over this difference, and in fact the
> passage you quote is incorrect in suggesting "to naru" is somehow more
> ephemeral than "ni naru." In contemporary spoken and written Japanese,
> the exact opposite is the case--"to naru" signals more confidence in the
> result than "ni naru."

I'm glad to get confirmation of this.

>
> The situation mentioned in Nihongo Online is an example of the
> non-interchangeable scenario. "to naru," signaling definite result, does
> not work well with ambiguous subjective states of being like にぎやか and
元気
> .

Thanks for your input. I'd pulled Martin's book out of a box trying to
find something about things like "oishii da nante" on a web forum and
it didn't have any information about that either. Hmm, disappointed!

The question about to naru and ni naru seems to have come up
repeatedly on a lot of forums about Japanese.

Thanks again.

[chance]

"Ben Bullock" <benkasmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a05fecc4-9f39-493d...@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...

Thanks again.

Shimpei's posts are dispalyed with parts in Japanese garbled
on my PC. What is the trick of displaying his posts properly
like your computer seems doing it so.