Deragatory shina.

[mirror]

Hello,

Why did "shina," in reference to China, become derogatory?

I can see some sense in the kanji, which represent "what place?"
What nationality wants to be referred to as "who dat?"

And what is the strength of the slur? Using English, is it nigger,
colored, negro, black? Using English, you also can substitute your
own relative power of slurs for Asians, Hispanics, Muslims, Jews --
actually, better defined as those not you and not perceived as a
peer or a superior.

There is a spicy class of terms for superiors and for those who
assume they are superior. That, too, would be a nice thread.


Paul

[Bart Mathias]

On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 16:42:02 -0500
mirror <mai...@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Why did "shina," in reference to China, become derogatory?

Are you sure it is? Maybe I should give up singing "Shina-no yoru"?

I believe the characters for it are a Chinese selection, so not likely
derogatory.
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>

[Jim Breen]

On Monday, 3 September 2012 07:42:06 UTC+10, mirror wrote:
> Why did "shina," in reference to China, become derogatory?

I have it tagged "sens" (sensitive) rather than "derog". This is
because it's on NHK's to-be-avoided list.

> I can see some sense in the kanji, which represent "what place?"

It's in lots of dictionaries, with no hint of derogative connotations.
Consider Daijirin's entry:

外国人が中国を呼んだ称。「秦（しん）」の転という。
中国で仏典を漢訳する際，インドでの呼称を音訳したもの。
日本では江戸中期以後，第二次大戦末まで称した。

My guess is that it's sensitive because it has
connections back to the time of Japan's aggression
against China.

I once encountered a drunken Japanese man hurling abuse
at a Chinese student on a train. He didn't use 支那;
only 中国人.

Jim

[Ben Bullock]

On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:26:45 -1000, Bart Mathias wrote:

> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 16:42:02 -0500 mirror <mai...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Why did "shina," in reference to China, become derogatory?
>
> Are you sure it is?

There was some trouble when the Tokyo governor Ishihara used "Shina"
about China. I found this article about it:

http://potemkin.jp/archives/50759507.html

It says "「シナ」という言葉の由来には諸説あるが、日本では蔑称（べっしょう）とされるのが一
般的だ。".

I also found this:

http://soudan1.biglobe.ne.jp/qa26547.html

There is quite a lot of discussion.

There is a wikipedia article about shina but I don't feel like reading a
long article in Japanese.

> Maybe I should give up singing "Shina-no yoru"?
>
> I believe the characters for it are a Chinese selection, so not likely
> derogatory.

I really don't know but it may be one of those things where the meaning
or status of the word has changed since it was invented.

--
sci.lang.japan FAQ/language tools: http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/

[aesthete8]

According to the following:

- The Second Sino-Japanese War fixed the impression of the term
"Shina" as offensive among Chinese people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shina_(word)

[chance]

"Ben Bullock" <benkasmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k212vl$o44$1...@dont-email.me...

> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:26:45 -1000, Bart Mathias wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 16:42:02 -0500 mirror <mai...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Why did "shina," in reference to China, become derogatory?
>>
>> Are you sure it is?
>
> There was some trouble when the Tokyo governor Ishihara used "Shina"
> about China.

Did he say so, ready for war with China, under the circumstance
that China is armed with nuclear weapons, while his country isn't?
I wonder what would his naswer be if asked by Hu Chin-tao
if you have an A-bomb? He must be suffereing from amnesia,
for his country was suffering from holocaust while he was hiding
in the country in his teens from the hell of fire devastating
his whole country until the king flashed a white flag.
I was reading 'Leviathan' by Thomas Hobbes.Hobbes detested
vainglory.

Thanks
CK

[aesthete8]

On Sep 2, 11:42 am, mirror <mai...@127.0.0.1> wrote:

Isn't using SHINA like using CHOOSEN for KANKOKU?

[Tad Perry]

What would you estimate the probability is that Japan does actually have
some secret nukes or at least a program ready to manufacture them within
mere days if they decided they wanted some?

I'd say the probability is significantly greater than zero.

tvp

[chance]

"Tad Perry" <tadp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:k23cbj$3f2$1...@dont-email.me...

Maybe.

China is not what it used to be when Japan took on the sleeping giant
in 1937 and fled pellmell to save their skin on the heel
of their gargantuan debacle. It is evident for the Japanese to see
a looming disaster in the first place that they could not ever hope
to conquer China when they saw only territories they could control
were limited to corrdiors along some of the railways.They also knew
that they had made a colossal mistake to attack China.
This is evidenced by the fact that they tried to sue for peace
on the condition that Japan was willing to return to the status
before the Sino-Japanese War of 1894.

Thanks
CK

[gggg...@gmail.com]

As I watch the Taiga dorama GUNSHI KANBEI, whenever Hideyoshi refers to China, he says MINKOKU.

[Bart Mathias]

One day Jim Breen wrote,

"It's in lots of dictionaries, with no hint of derogative connotations.
Consider Daijirin's entry:

"...
"日本では江戸中期以後，第二次大戦末まで称した。"

"Ming" was never dyslogistic.
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>

[Bart Mathias]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 02:00:07 +0000 (UTC)
Wasabi <blue.mo...@org.invalid> wrote:

> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 11:20:27 -0800 (PST)
> > gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> As I watch the Taiga dorama GUNSHI KANBEI, whenever Hideyoshi refers to
> China, he says MINKOKU.
> >
> > One day Jim Breen wrote,
> > "It's in lots of dictionaries, with no hint of derogative connotations.
> >

> > "Ming" was never dyslogistic.
>
> I thought Minkoku just meant Taiwan/ROC?

That's a new one on me. But obviously Hideyoshi was referring to the mainland
Ming Dynasty. For some reason the Japanese used the Chinese pronunciation.

--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>

[Wasabi]

Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 02:00:07 +0000 (UTC)
> Wasabi <blue.mo...@org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 11:20:27 -0800 (PST)
>> > gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> As I watch the Taiga dorama GUNSHI KANBEI, whenever Hideyoshi
>> >> refers to China, he says MINKOKU.
>> >
>> > One day Jim Breen wrote,
>> > "It's in lots of dictionaries, with no hint of derogative
>> > connotations.
>> >
>> > "Ming" was never dyslogistic.
>>
>> I thought Minkoku just meant Taiwan/ROC?
>
> That's a new one on me. But obviously Hideyoshi was referring to the
> mainland Ming Dynasty. For some reason the Japanese used the Chinese
> pronunciation.

Funny, checking in EDICT it only seems to bave Minchou for the Ming
Dynasty, whilst the only gloss for Minkoku is Republic of China/Taiwan.
(However I should clarify that that's spelt with 'Min' as in 'people'
not 'Min' as in Ming. Minkoku as in Ming-koku doesn't seem to be in
EDICT at all, perhaps you should submit it.)

--
_______________________________________________________

Larkinson's Law:
All laws are basically false.
_______________________________________________________

[Bart Mathias]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 20:52:28 +0000 (UTC)

Wasabi <blue.mo...@org.invalid> wrote:

> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 02:00:07 +0000 (UTC)
> > Wasabi <blue.mo...@org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 11:20:27 -0800 (PST)
> >> > gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> As I watch the Taiga dorama GUNSHI KANBEI, whenever Hideyoshi
> >> >> refers to China, he says MINKOKU.
> >> >
> >> > One day Jim Breen wrote,
> >> > "It's in lots of dictionaries, with no hint of derogative
> >> > connotations.
> >> >
> >> > "Ming" was never dyslogistic.
> >>
> >> I thought Minkoku just meant Taiwan/ROC?
> >
> > That's a new one on me. But obviously Hideyoshi was referring to the
> > mainland Ming Dynasty. For some reason the Japanese used the Chinese
> > pronunciation.
>
>
> Funny, checking in EDICT it only seems to bave Minchou for the Ming
> Dynasty, whilst the only gloss for Minkoku is Republic of China/Taiwan.
> (However I should clarify that that's spelt with 'Min' as in 'people'
> not 'Min' as in Ming. Minkoku as in Ming-koku doesn't seem to be in
> EDICT at all, perhaps you should submit it.)

I'm not that familiar with EDICT, but I haven't been able to find the
word in other dictionaries either, so I don't think it's important enough
to put there.

However, I haven't found any "myoukoku" either, so I'm pretty sure that's
how one would read the "bright country" in this line I find by googling those
two characters (unfortunately I can't copy and paste the line):

toyotomi hideyoshi ha honkide chousen, BRIGHT COUNTRY wo shihaisuru tsumoriga attanodesuka...

(some place in this link that google retrieves in Japanese?)
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1431290874

--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>

[gggg...@gmail.com]

According to the following online dictionary, SHINKOKU = CHINA UNDER THE MANCHUS:

http://jisho.org/words?jap=shinkoku&eng=&dict=edict

[Bart Mathias]

On Sat, 6 Dec 2014 19:42:29 -0800 (PST)
gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

> [...]

> According to the following online dictionary, SHINKOKU = CHINA UNDER THE MANCHUS:
>
> http://jisho.org/words?jap=shinkoku&eng=&dict=edict

That's correct. What does it have to do with Hideyoshi wanting to subjugate
them Ming folk? (I must be missing something here.)
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Before the war, the popular song ORYOKKO BUSHI began:

- Chosen to Shina no sakai no ano Oryokko...

https://books.google.com/books?id=EzssBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA311&dq=%22chosen+to+shina+no+sakai+no+ano+Oryokko%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvlPzm3PzNAhVWwGMKHf-tA2oQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=%22chosen%20to%20shina%20no%20sakai%20no%20ano%20Oryokko%22&f=false

[gggg...@gmail.com]

To hear it on YOUTUBE, search:

鴨緑江節　/　土取利行（唄・演奏）

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 3, 2012 at 7:55:57 AM UTC-10, aesthete8 wrote:

Ever heard of CHOSEN SOREN? (recent article):

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-north-korea-return-20160729-snap-story.html

[Jim Beard]

Non sequitur. Kankoku is Republic of Korea, the short form of the
official name. Chosen is "Korea," as in Korean Peninsula.

North Korea claims inherent domain over the entire peninsula, so its use
of Chosen follows that logic, while South Korea uses Kankoku to
distinguish itself as an independent entity.

FWIW, the Chosen Soren has from inception functioned as an overseas arm
of the North Korean Government. Divergences in political line and
positions have been minor, and usually a deliberate choice on the part of
those in Pyongyang to have two propaganda positions in effect to garner
support. Rare attempts by Chosun Soren to take a position actually
representing Koreans in Japan that differed from that wanted by Pyongyang
usually got short shrift, and sometimes ended in unpleasantness quite
onerous for those trying for the different position.

Cheers!

jim b.

--
UNIX is not user-unfriendly; it merely
expects users to be computer-friendly.

[Bart Mathias]

On 01/09/16 22:19, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

> The following Wikipedia article on SHINA may be of interest:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shina_(word)
>
Probably not derogatory yet in 1938 when the song Shina-no Yoru became a
hit.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 at 11:42:02 AM UTC-10, mirror wrote:

Wasn't this previously known as CHUUKA SOBA?:

http://thumbnail.image.rakuten.co.jp/@0_mall/takasago-mejya/cabinet/03527637/img61513373.jpg

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 at 11:42:02 AM UTC-10, mirror wrote:

According to the following:

- The U.S. Occupation knew this and initially banned ["Shina no Yoru"], particularly sensitive to its title--"Shina," the old European-derived term for China, had come, during the Imperial Japanese era, to be a deeply insulting derogatory term. (Indeed, it is still considered insulting to this day, which is a caution to those who would throw the characters representing "Shina" ("支那") around heedlessly.)

http://friendlynoises.blogspot.com/2011/04/china-night-intercultural-vortex-part-1.html

[gggg...@gmail.com]

- [Watanabe Hamako] spent several months in a repatriation camp there [after the war ended], performing regularly for Japanese (Chinese troops insisted she change the lyrics of her best-known “Shina no Yoru” to a more respectful “Chūgoku no Musume”)...

https://cpb-us-west-2-juc1ugur1qwqqqo4.stackpathdns.com/voices.uchicago.edu/dist/0/126/files/2008/05/michael-bourdaghs-ethnoise-presentation-5-15.pdf