Translation Help
Mike
Aunt bought a roll of paintings at a sale where they were selling things
that where left in the Utah camp. The pictures are painted on rice paper and
there were around 30 pictures on the roll. Each picture is approx. 10"X14"
and done in ink and watercolor. After the pictures there was the writing
that no one has been able to help me translate. We were hoping that it told
something about the artist and more info about the pictures.
I teach at the University of Massachusetts, so I approached the Asian
Studies Dept for help, and the following is all I've gotten to this point:
"Just from a brief look I can tell you the text is apparently quite old (the
date given is March 1907), and written in the sort of script that most
Japanese people won't make much sense of (so-called "old orthography" in the
cursive style). It would really help to see a digital photo or two of the
pictures, even low quality, just for a bit of context."
I put a copy of the document and then a link to a few of the paintings at
http://www.geocities.com/bandmallen/Page1.html?1064512122109
Please let me know if you would be willing to help in the translation or if
you have any thoughts of where else I can turn.
Thanks, Mike
Mike
may give you a starting point...
The large characters on the page do indicate a date,
Meiji TeiYu (34th year of Sexagenary Cycle) First Month
20th Day (three large characters follows)
I'm not sure how the sexagenary cycle is applied in Japan, but if they
follow the same naming of the year as Chinese do, this equates to 1897. If
it was the 34 year of the Meiji reign, then this would correspond to 1901
according to the abbreviated history of Japan in the back of my
Japanese-Japanese word/phrase dictionary.
The three large characters are indeed hard to identify. I don't want to
speculate as the exact characters, since I don't know. I have already looked
through a number of dictionaries on Japanese Sousho writing forms, and
couldn't identify the latter two.
The characters on the bottom left of the picture (the larger one being top
right) are kinda small and fuzzy. I can make out what looks to be
To-kyo [machi?] Ni-hon-hashi [Muromachi?] Cho [?] Tei 9 [?][?]
Aki-yama [Hajime?] [yuki] [kou] [mon] {red stamp}
The brackets indicate I'm not sure. However, by the looks of things, you got
an address and a surname to go by, Mr. Akiyama it seems.
But I could be wrong [he said covering his eventualities, heheh...].
"Mike" <mike...@acad.umass.edu> wrote in message news:...
Bart Mathias
The writing doesn't seem so bad at first glance, but the fact that it
is upside down on your site makes it difficult. And the fact that
you produced a basically two-color text in millions of colors has so
far stymied my efforts to save it to a paint program and turn it
over. (My sorry browser won't print graphics. I may try overlapping
screen saves.)
Right now I have it transferred to a PC laptop so I can look at it
from behind. That way I can make out most of the characters, so
someone who keeps up with this kind of stuff (as I did in my
long-lost youth) should have very little trouble, I should think.
It begins something like "Drawing one water(color?) on the fifth day
and making a name after the 10th is the ancient teaching (of?)
Isonokami." Whatever "making a name" or "Isonokami" might be. But
then I start to get a crick in my neck.
If I can manage a print out, I'll at least skim it once and see what
I can make of it. But there are others in this group who are much
more adept than I; let's hope they respond.
Bart
Louise Bremner
> If I can manage a print out, I'll at least skim it once and see what
> I can make of it. But there are others in this group who are much
> more adept than I; let's hope they respond.
I'm not one of them, but I'm interested. I tried the URL, but: "The web
site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer."
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Bart Mathias
> "Mike" writes:
> > I put a copy of the document and then a link to a few of the
> > paintings at
> > http://www.geocities.com/bandmallen/Page1.html?1064512122109
>
> > Please let me know if you would be willing to help in the
> > translation or if you have any thoughts of where else I can turn.
> If I can manage a print out, I'll at least skim it once and see
> what I can make of it. But there are others in this group who are
> much more adept than I; let's hope they respond.
I see others have responded, but once I got a print-out, I couldn't
resist spending an hour seeing what I could do, so I'll go ahead and
offer my first draft before I look and see what others have said it
really says.
Actually, I have a nearly perfect translation, except just for the
"?" parts and the errors. If we got questions like this a couple
times a year, my brain might stop going to pot.
Bart
?
Though to draw one (drop of?) water in five days and make one
name?/stone?
in ten days is the Isonokami-ancient teaching, as a course of study
for one's days making pictures is itself something the ancients did,
? is the blessing of Kwannon Fudo. Hokusai ... time, ... also never
neglected to draw the likeness of Kwannon every day. There are
places to think ? of byegone ? learned from that frown, the years
pass. When one starts in the dawn and and faces ? inkstone morning
after morning, first one small ? something one has made, that is to
say, it's this ? way of passing the days. When ? deigned to ? to
try to ? a branch, though it hardly needs saying, it was a plan to
turn it into a later memoir as ? Diary. Therefore, throughout the
new and old years, on ? days of ceremony, he drew his thoughts and
as for the rest, just as he felt like doing, he sometimes made
comical pictures, sometimes he imitated the ? of the old masters,
and so it must be something that could be called, for one, a ?
picture zuihitsu. Even continuing for the period of half a year,
later, he became an invalid due to illness--what a terrible, terrible
thing. The master of the Witty Circle attached a part of it to ? in
?. ? thinking to ? a discourse on his drawing theme, in an
introduction that has this attached to ?, says that he reveals the
facts slightly for that reason.
An evening in Meiji fire-sheep (year) Yone?? Michiaki(?)/Manmei(?)
Bart Mathias
> ... After the pictures there was the writing that no one has been
> able to help me translate. We were hoping that it told something
> about the artist and more info about the pictures.
By the way, I meant to ask: Doesn't the writing *precede* the
pictures (come on the right-hand end of the scroll)?
It sounds to me like the writing is the *introduction* it speaks of.
Bart
Bart Mathias
> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>
> > If I can manage a print out, I'll at least skim it once and see
> > what I can make of it. But there are others in this group who
> > are much more adept than I; let's hope they respond.
>
> I'm not one of them, but I'm interested. I tried the URL, but: "The
> web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data
> transfer."
Sorry, probably my fault. I downloaded twice, then went back for a
second look.
Later I went for a third time, and found the "exceeded ...; come back
in an hour" message, but remembered that I had saved to disk, and
managed a fuzzy printout, one-third at a time, which I pasted
together and can almost read.
A second hour might do it, but I'm pooped (very hard hike yesterday,
and then an hour looking at said text!).
Bart
jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com
>The writing doesn't seem so bad at first glance, but the fact that it
>is upside down on your site makes it difficult.
As well as being upside down, it seems to be a scan of a fax. Scanning
the original would be better. Fax resolution is not that good.
--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
(Monash Provider No. 00008C) ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Charles Eicher
jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com says...
>
>Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> dixit:
>
>>The writing doesn't seem so bad at first glance, but the fact that it
>>is upside down on your site makes it difficult.
>
>As well as being upside down, it seems to be a scan of a fax. Scanning
>the original would be better. Fax resolution is not that good.
On a marginally related note, an engineer once told me that the CCITT defined
fax resolution just high enough to reproduce kanji legibly. Normal rez was set
just high enough to render most handwritten kanji, fine rez for printed kanji.
Kevin Wayne Williams
>
> The writing doesn't seem so bad at first glance, but the fact that it
> is upside down on your site makes it difficult. And the fact that
> you produced a basically two-color text in millions of colors has so
> far stymied my efforts to save it to a paint program and turn it
> over. (My sorry browser won't print graphics. I may try overlapping
> screen saves.)
I have a 29 kB B&W rendition in proper orientation. I will mail it to
you if you ask.
KWW
Mike
seen the writing, they belong to my great aunt (she lives in Utah and I'm in
MA). Also the reason that I can't do much better than posting a scan of a
fax for the time being. The 2nd, she cut up the scroll and gave the
individual pictures to close friends/relatives. The pictures that are
linked from the site I gave yesterday (can also be found at
http://www.geocities.com/bandmallen/Page2.html?1064512176546) are the 2 that
were given to my mom. It is my understanding that the writing is on the
right hand side, which we therefore thought was the end...sounds like that
was a bad assumption.
Thanks for all the info that you've given so far...do the pictures have any
additional info that may be relevant?
Mike
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:H3.D3.aR2pEY...@hawaii.edu...
Mike
but there are words and terms that obivously have a deeper meaning to
Japanese that I have knowledge of. I looked up "Kwannon Fudo" and see that
they are 2 Buddhist figures (Fudo- god of wisdom and Kwannon- goddess of
mercy). I see that Katsushika Hokusai is probably best known for his
landscape pictures "By far his most famous works are his 36-picture set Mt
Fuji Views, produced in 1827".
So what is he really saying? I'm just afraid that I bring too many
American/English assumptions along when I'm trying to comprehend what you
translated. Do you think that you might be able to give a short
explaination of what he's trying to get across?
Mike
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:A3.23.aR2kEi...@hawaii.edu...
Phil Healey
> Bart, thanks for the time you put into this! I get the basic understanding,
> but there are words and terms that obivously have a deeper meaning to
> Japanese that I have knowledge of.
> American/English assumptions along when I'm trying to comprehend what you
> translated.
Much as I mourn the loss of Edward Said, I'd have to say you've taken
_Orientalism_ a bit too much to heart.
There isn't anything 'deeper' that you aren't getting from the
translation - the question marks are preventing you from deciphering it.
I'm actually interested in this, and am wondering if Bart might not take
the trouble to transcribe the Japanese, so others can take guesses as to
what should go in the gaps.
--
Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:02:01 -1000
Linux 2.4.20-20.9
Mutt 1.4.1i (2003-03-19)
Be still, my love, my watermelon rind. I am consumed with your
collection of agile fans and spare blades.
-- the surreal compliment generator
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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| |)L__ ====== __](| | |
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+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Charles Eicher
>
>* Mike <mike...@acad.umass.edu> [2003-09-26 04:15]:
>> Bart, thanks for the time you put into this! I get the basic understanding,
>> but there are words and terms that obivously have a deeper meaning to
>> Japanese that I have knowledge of.
><snip>
>> So what is he really saying? I'm just afraid that I bring too many
>> American/English assumptions along when I'm trying to comprehend what you
>> translated.
>
>Much as I mourn the loss of Edward Said, I'd have to say you've taken
>_Orientalism_ a bit too much to heart.
>
>There isn't anything 'deeper' that you aren't getting from the
>translation - the question marks are preventing you from deciphering it.
Yes, there is something deeper. The drawing of Kannon was a common religious
practice amongst buddhist monks. Just the assiduous, repeated drawing of Kannon
was, in and of itself, supposed to lead to enlightenment. The letter associates
the author's drawing practices with the ancient practices of those monks.
There is also a lengthy history behind this type of letter at the beginning of a
scroll of artwork, I might call them "frontspieces" but I'm not well acquainted
with that particular aspect of asian art history (the writing alone is beyond my
comprehension). But even in my ignorance, I'm not so foolish to believe that
anyone who might seek a deeper meaning is an Orientalist.
Bart Mathias
> .... The pictures that are
> linked from the site I gave yesterday (can also be found at
> http://www.geocities.com/bandmallen/Page2.html?1064512176546) are
> the 2 that were given to my mom. It is my understanding that the
> writing is on the right hand side, which we therefore thought was
> the end...sounds like that was a bad assumption.
> Thanks for all the info that you've given so far...do the pictures
> have any additional info that may be relevant?
I don't know yet. My first three attempts to look at them ended with
a hung computer. Saw a bit of sky the first time, a branch, the
second. Third try crashed before anything at all came on. And the
next time, I got the "exceeded quota" message. I've copied the URL
down, and may try again with a PC later.
Needless to say, something written in 1907 isn't likely to be an
introduction to internment camp art. So I am very curious about the
pictures.
Anyway, I get the impression (my impressions are usually wrong,
though) that the pictures might be the work of someone who lost the
ability to paint any more and they were put together with the preface
in his honor.
I've made some trivial changes in my "translation" and reposted.
Bart
Bart Mathias
understand.
Drat!
> Though to draw one (drop of?) water in five days and make one
> name?/stone? in ten days is the Isonokami-ancient teaching, as a
> course of study day after day making pictures is itself something
> the ancients did, ? is the blessing of Kwannon Fudo. Hokusai ...
> time, ... also never neglected to draw the likeness of Kwannon
> every day. Though it is not to say that ? learned from that frown,
> the years, on the grounds that it provided something to think
> about, he started at the dawn and when the year passes and faced
> his writing inkstone morning after morning, and first made one
> small ?, that is to say, it's just another day. When ? deigned to
> ? to try to ? a branch, though it hardly needs saying, it was a
> plan to turn it into a later memoir as ? Diary. Therefore, on
> annual holidays, old and modern,, he recorded his thoughts and as
> for the rest, to his heart's content he sometimes made comical
> pictures, sometimes he imitated the writing ? of the old masters,
> and so it must be something that could be called, for one, a ?
> picture zuihitsu. Thus even continuing for the period of half a
> year, later, he became an invalid due to illness--what a terrible,
> terrible thing. The master of the kokkeiza had previously attached
> a part of it to ?. ? thinking to ? a discourse on his (?
> "korega") drawing theme, he said to me he would indicate a little
> of the reasons and facts in the preface which includes this.
>
> An evening in Meiji fire-sheep ([1907]year) Yone? Michiaki(?)
Bart
I got something from Brazil or someplace in my e-mail this morning,
about how a posting with a virus had been prevented from going to me
and a bunch of people in this NG. This virus stuff is getting
annoying!
Bart Mathias
> ...> I'm actually interested in this, and am wondering if Bart
> ...> might not take
> the trouble to transcribe the Japanese, so others can take guesses
> as to what should go in the gaps.
Well, let's see how long it takes to type the little I can read. I'm
going to use the spelling given (but kyuukana for kanji), and make
"shi"s "si"s, etc. And a lot of the non-"?" stuff is wrong!
itukani issuiwo egaki towokani (or yori?) isseki/itimeiwo tukurutoha
isono kami huruki wosihenagara sonohi sonohino kateito site
sakugasurumo mata mukasino hitono nasesi wazanare {HUNT PICTURE ?} ha
kannon hudounadono bukkei hokusaiha ? si/ko zi/toki? ? ha mata
kannonzouwo higotoni egakuwo okotarazariki inuru tei/tyou ?no ?
ihe/ka {kibisi?}mo? sono sikameni narahisito ihuni aranedo/araneto
omohu tokoro aritote tosi tatu asitayori hazimete asana asana
kakisuzuri(?)ni mukaheba madu {one small ?}wo tukurisi mono sunahati
kono hinamigatanari soha edawo ?kantote zon(?)ji tamahisiha ihumademo
naki kotonaredo itiha ?nikkitomo site notino omohidesyauni sentono
kiwadatenarisi woreba(?) sinkiunentyuugyauzino tauzituniha sono
kokorozasiwo utusi hokaha mina kokoro yuku mamani aruhiha butugawo
tukuri aruhiha kodaika(? old big family)no sho(write)?ni narahi nado
sitamahikereba itini ?ga zuihitutomo nadukubeki mononaramu kakute
hansai(?)no ahidawo tuduketamahisimo notiha/atoha yamahino tameni
kei(?)serarenurukoso itomo itomo kutiwosiki kotonare kokkeiza syuzin
sakini sono itibuwo hoo/boo(?)satu(??)ni huseraresi ka ko ta bi
(huh?) korega gadai kaisetuwomo so(?)hentote yo(?)ni korewo
zoku(?)seraretaruno zyode (tuide??) isasaka sono yuhe yosiwo sirusu
(funny way to write it, though) to ihu
meizi hinoto hituzino yayohi (Oops! Twice I made that "evening"
instead of "third moon.")
yone/kome ? miti? aki? (can't read the han)
Gotta learn to type faster. That took over 20 valuable minutes.
Bart
Phil Healey
That's not deep. That's just not knowing the history (which I don't
claim to, btw). There might be something deep in copying the Kannon over
and over, but the depth is in the act, not in knowing _about_ it,
although most westerners I've known who are interested in Zen get the
two mixed up. They read something by Daisetsu Suzuki and then go to
Ryoanji and look down their noses at all the tourists.
You either know the history or not. There's no depth involved.
As for the Orientalism comment, how else am I supposed to interpret "I
bring too many American/English assumptions"? I don't deny that there
are Japanese concepts that require explanation for westerners to
understand (_not_ wabi/sabi which is almost completely transparent to
most people on first contact), but I didn't come across any in this
text. All the missing words serve more to hamper comprehension than
any exotic 'depth' at work behind the concepts.
--
Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:11:01 -1000
Linux 2.4.20-20.9
Mutt 1.4.1i (2003-03-19)
Soon we will be together, writhing profitably on a bed of non-seasonal
vegetables in equine bliss. With this vision I see no reason why the
operation to remove a 2.2kg
Charles Eicher
Don't judge others by the standard of your own lack of knowledge. The primary
intention of the letter is to tie the modern painter's practice with the ancient
monks' practices. As is common in Asian literature, the author refers to the
older Kannon artists, without explicitly making the connection. The recipient of
this scroll would be sufficiently familiar with the old practices as to make an
explicit connection unnecessary.
>You either know the history or not. There's no depth involved.
You either understand the letter or not. None of the letter's contents are
evident on the surface, it is all clouded in metaphors from ancient literature.
It is ALL deeper meaning.
>As for the Orientalism comment, how else am I supposed to interpret "I
>bring too many American/English assumptions"?
Interpret it as I did, a frank admission that the guy doesn't know anything
about Japanese art, he only knows about Western art.
>I don't deny that there
>are Japanese concepts that require explanation for westerners to
>understand (_not_ wabi/sabi which is almost completely transparent to
>most people on first contact), but I didn't come across any in this
>text. All the missing words serve more to hamper comprehension than
>any exotic 'depth' at work behind the concepts.
You have a LOT to learn about Japanese art.
Phil Healey
しえながらその日その日の課程として作画するもまた昔の人のなせし業
なれ探画(?)は観音不動などの佛ケイ北斎は(si/ko zi/toki? looks
like 松子 to me)牡丹(?)はまた観音像を日毎に描くを怠らざりきいぬる
丁商(?)のihe/ka{厳}もその顰めにならひしといふにあらねど/と思ふ所
ありとて年たつ旦より初めて朝な朝な書き硯に対ばまづ一小__を作りしも
の即ちこの日なみがたなりそは枝をカン？とて存（？）じ給いしはいふま
でも無きことなれど一は（一体？）日記ともして後の思出シャウにせん
との企（く not き, right?）なりしをれば（？）新旧年中行事の当日に
はその志写し他は皆心ゆく壗に或は仏画を作り或は古大家（？）の書__
倣ひななどしたまひければ一に__（仏？）画随筆とも名づべきものならむ
かくて半サイ（？）の間を続け給いしも後は病のために慶（？）せられ
ぬるこそいともいとも口惜しきことなれ滑稽ザ（？）主人サキにその一部
をホウ/ボウサツ（？）に附せられしかこたび(huh?)これが画題解説そ（？）
ヘンとて予（「よ」じゃなくて「あらかじめ」？）に之をゾクせられたる
序で聊かそのゆへよしをシルすと云
明治丁未やよひ
米島満明
Some of the kanji I couldn't make out even with your readings, so I put
them in katakana. I've added a few comments (questions about readings,
actually) and my own bold suggestion that the last name is 米島
Yoneshima, but all the rest I've left the same, except for using new
kanji, because I don't have the old ones in my system, apparently.
Hope this helps.
--
Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:46:01 -1000
Linux 2.4.20-20.9
Mutt 1.4.1i (2003-03-19)
Your fingers staple pine nuts into everything you touch.
ueshiba
>
> I put a copy of the document and then a link to a few of the paintings at
> http://www.geocities.com/bandmallen/Page1.html?1064512122109
Following is my transcription of above page in Japanese.
小引 （＝短いはしがき、a short preface ）
五日に一水を描（えが）き、十日事（？毎？）一石を作るとは、
いそのかみ（次の「古」に懸かる枕詞）ふる（古）きをしへ（教え）ながら
其（の） （２行目）
日々の課程として作畫（＝画）するも古昔（「古」の崩し方、少しおかしい）の
人のなせし業なれ。探幽翁は觀（観） （３行目）
音不動などの佛畫（＝仏画）、北斎は狗（？犬）子、暁斎（＝河鍋暁斎）は又
觀（観）音像を日毎に描くを怠らさ（ざ） （４行目）
りき。いぬる丁酉の歳（とし。明治３０年、１８９７）、家厳（＝我が父親）も
その顰（ひそみ）にならひしといふにあらねと（ど）思ふ所あり （５行目）
とて年たつ旦（＝正月一日の朝）より初めて朝なゝゝ筆硯に對（対。むか）へは
（ば）
まづ一小品を作りしもの、即ち （６行目）
この日なみがた（「日なみ」は「日々」）なり。そ（＝それ）は技（わざ、うで）を
研（みが）かん（「研」の筆順が違っている）とて為（な）し給ひしはいふまて
（で）も
無きことなれと（ど） （７行目）
一は絵日記ともして後の思（い）出草（思い出すよすが、たより）にせんとの
企（くわだて）なりしけれは（ば）（文法的に如何？）、新舊（旧）年中行 （８行
目）
事の當（当）日には其（の）意を冩（写）し他は皆心ゆくまゝに或は俳畫（画）を
作り或は古大家（昔の名手） （９行目）
の模跡（足＋責）に傚（なら）ひなと（ど）したまひけれは（ば）、一に絵画随筆
とも名つ（づ）くべきものならむ。かくて （１０行目）
半歳（とし）の間を継け（げ）給ひしも後は病のために廃せされぬるこそ
いともゝゝゝ口惜しきことなれ。 （１１行目）
滑稽堂主人、曩（さき）にその一部を剖●（「厥」の「欠」が「リ」（りっとう）に
なった字）（２字で木に彫る、つまり「印刷する」の意味）に附せられしか（が）
こたび（今度）これが畫（画）題解説をも （１２行目）
添へんとて予に之を嘱（しょく）せられたるの序（つい）で聊かそのゆへよしを
識なすと云 （１３行目）
明治丁未（４０年、１９０７） 米島 満明
Someone might translate this into modern Japaese, and in turn
into English.
Phil Healey
> In article <2003092702...@adlerpacific.com>, Phil Healey
> says...
> >
> >* Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> [2003-09-26 14:04]:
> >> In article <20030926220...@adlerpacific.com>, Phil Healey
> >> says...
> >> >
> >> >* Mike <mike...@acad.umass.edu> [2003-09-26 04:15]:
> >
> >claim to, btw). There might be something deep in copying the Kannon
> >over and over, but the depth is in the act, not in knowing _about_
> >it, although most westerners I've known who are interested in Zen get
> >the two mixed up. They read something by Daisetsu Suzuki and then go
> >to Ryoanji and look down their noses at all the tourists.
>
> Don't judge others by the standard of your own lack of knowledge.
This high-sounding sentence doesn't mean anything. How is it possible to
consciously use one's own lack of knowledge as a standard to judge
others?
> The primary intention of the letter is to tie the modern painter's
> practice with the ancient monks' practices. As is common in Asian
> literature, the author refers to the older Kannon artists, without
> explicitly making the connection. The recipient of this scroll would
> be sufficiently familiar with the old practices as to make an explicit
> connection unnecessary.
Knowledge does not equal depth. Everything you mention (references,
familiarity, etc.) is plain ol' knowledge. Nothing deep there.
The author refers to the old artists, but it looks to me like the
connections are explicit. Where are the subtle allusions?
> >You either know the history or not. There's no depth involved.
>
> You either understand the letter or not. None of the letter's contents
> are evident on the surface, it is all clouded in metaphors from
> ancient literature. It is ALL deeper meaning.
Metaphors? Other than the branch reference (perhaps a metaphor, or maybe
he was just talking about painting a branch, horrors!), I don't see any
metaphors, and the only cloudiness is my inability to decipher the
cursive script.
Where do you see a metaphor from ancient literature? From what I can
make out, the author talks about how the old masters painted every day,
and specific references to one of them (painting butsuga (?) or making
copies of the old masters' works, getting sick, etc.) but other than
that I don't see any hidden allusions to anything 'ancient.' Certainly
no metaphors, unless the description of a painter's life is a metaphor
for something larger. But somehow I think the "itomo itomo kuchioshiki
koto nare" is an actual expression of actual regret about an actual
death.
> >As for the Orientalism comment, how else am I supposed to interpret
> >"I bring too many American/English assumptions"?
>
> Interpret it as I did, a frank admission that the guy doesn't know
> anything about Japanese art, he only knows about Western art.
Where in the text would "American/English assumptions" prevent him from
understanding the content?
> >I don't deny that there are Japanese concepts that require
> >explanation for westerners to understand (_not_ wabi/sabi which is
> >almost completely transparent to most people on first contact), but I
> >didn't come across any in this text. All the missing words serve more
> >to hamper comprehension than any exotic 'depth' at work behind the
> >concepts.
>
> You have a LOT to learn about Japanese art.
You don't have to know anything about Japanese art to understand that
there's nothing deep or 'impenetrably Japanese' in the text. The OP has
trouble understanding the text simply because of all the missing words
and because apparently he doesn't know the history. The content of the
text is transparent enough, though.
If there are metaphors and hidden allusions to ancient literature in the
text, point them out, along with all the subtleties and profundities
open only to initiates of Japanese art.
--
Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:51:59 -1000
Linux 2.4.20-20.9
Mutt 1.4.1i (2003-03-19)
You wear your ears well, true to the testament of loose fitting flesh.
ueshiba
news:bl3552$il0$1...@bgsv5648.tk.mesh.ad.jp...
> 半歳（とし）の間を継け（げ）給ひしも後は病のために廃せされぬるこそ
「廃せ*ら*れぬるこそ」
上柴 公二
ueshiba
news:bl3552$il0$1...@bgsv5648.tk.mesh.ad.jp...
> 滑稽堂主人、曩（さき）にその一部を剖●（「厥」の「欠」が「リ」（りっとう）
に
> なった字）
剖●（「厥」＋「リ」（りっとう）） 「ほうけつ」。
意味は前に書いた通り。「剞●」という言葉もある。
上柴 公二
Charles Eicher
The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Phil Healey
Here's my outrageously audacious (and in all likelihood fantastically
incorrect) attempt at a translation into modern Japanese. Everybody get
out your red pens...
5日に一枚の絵を描いて、10日毎に一石を作るというのは昔の教えだが、
昔の人は実際に毎日の日課として作画をしていたらしい。例えば、探幽翁
は観音不動などの仏画を、北斎は仔犬を、そして暁斎は観音像を毎日
欠かさず描いていた。この前の明治30年に私の父親も同じようにという
わけではないけど、思うところがあったみたいで、元旦から毎朝筆硯に
向かって、まずは小さいものから作っていって、そういうふうに日々を
すごした。それが腕を研こうという試みであったことはいうまでもないが、
最初に絵日記にしてその後は回顧録にしようと計画していた。新旧年中行事
の日には真面目に描いて、それ以外のときはいつも心ゆくままに俳画を
描いたり、昔の名手の模蹟を摸倣したりした。父親のそういう作品はあわせて
「絵画随筆」とでもいうようなものになった。しかしこうして半年もすぎない
うちに病気で死んだことは本当に残念だった。滑稽堂の主人がその一部を曩に
印刷したものが今回画題解説でも添えようと思って、これをつけた次いでに
少しでもその意味をつたえれば幸いと存じます。
(Yes, I just winged it at the end there. I know it doesn't make any
sense.)
--
Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:18:59 -1000
Linux 2.4.20-20.9
Mutt 1.4.1i (2003-03-19)
Madame, your implement is admonishing me!
ueshiba
news:2003092707...@adlerpacific.com...
大変よく読んでいらっしゃると思いますが・・・
>
> Here's my outrageously audacious (and in all likelihood fantastically
> incorrect) attempt at a translation into modern Japanese. Everybody get
> out your red pens...
>
> 5日に一枚の絵を描いて、10日毎に一石を作るというのは
「一水を描く」も「一石を作る」も、多分、同じく「絵を描く」ということ
では？
> 昔の人は実際に毎日の日課として作画をしていたらしい。
「らしい」は不要では？ もし敢えて付けるなら「・・・ようだ」ぐらいかな？
> この前の明治30年に私の父親も同じようにというわけではないけど、
「・・・父親も先例に習う（というわけでは）」
> 向かって、まずは小さいものから作っていって、そういうふうに日々を
> すごした。
「・・・小品を描いていった。それがこの日々の作品である。」
「筆硯に向かって」が死語に近いなら「机に向かって」
> 最初に絵日記にしてその後は回顧録にしようと計画していた。
「・・また同時に（一つには）、絵日記として後々（昔のことを）思い出す
ための手がかりにしたいと思ってされたことなので・・」
> 新旧年中行事の日には真面目に描いて、
「新旧の年中行事の日にはその様子を描き」 意＝意況
> 描いたり、昔の名手の模蹟を摸倣したりした。
「模蹟を摸倣」では一寸おかしいので「名手の絵を模写した」ぐらいでは？
> 滑稽堂の主人がその一部を曩に印刷したものが今回
「かって・・・一部分を印刷した。けれど今回・・・」
> 画題解説でも添えようと思って、
「（先には絵だけを印刷したが、）今回は画（題）の解説も添えようと
（多分、子供さん方が考えて）」
>これをつけた次いでに
> 少しでもその意味をつたえれば幸いと存じます。
「私にこの序文を書くように依頼された。そこで、この序文において
簡単にその経緯を書いておこうとしているのである」。
「云」は「云爾」（しか云う、云うことしかり の意味）。
上 柴 公 二
Bart Mathias
will not try to preserve in JIS.
That's what I was waiting for, embarrassing as it is to see a couple
of my stupid errors. I think not writing Japanese for a few years
hurts more than not reading it, but the only incentive I have to
write it is so I can read these things that come up every two or
three years...
The "hinoto tori" hurts most. I took the shortcut of seeing if the
list of years in Matthew's Chinese Dictionary (Appendix A, Table VI)
included something that looked right, and it did not. he reason
turns out to be that only 50 years of the 60-year cycle are listed!
I'm embarrassed about the "isshouHIN," because that is an easy
character, but not to much about the "omoideGUSA (SOU?)" because that
is a very *hard* easy character. Got the meaning right, anyway.
Reading the "ga" of "butuga" in the third line as "kei" ("megumi")
and inadvertantly making up a word was pretty bad, too. Oh, and I
kept *trying* to read "yoneSHIMA" but kept deciding it couldn't be
"shima." And I used to write the "akatsuki" of "Gyousai" that way
myself! Ouch.
"Toshi" was easy to read after "nakaba" in the 10th line; why
couldn't I read it in line 4?
Reading "kuwadate" as "kiwadate" is one of those old mistakes that
keeps coming back to haunt me. If I could get rid of those, my
Japanese would be upgraded from terrible to bad.
One of my errors was a kind of typo. I translated "haiserarenuru" in
line 11 as "became an invalid" on the basis of what my Kangorin says
about that character and then typed "keiserarenuru." Didn't quite
fool Phil, though.
On the other hand, it seems to me that the character after "towoka"
in line 1 could just as well be the "mimi"karano"ni." Granted he
never uses that "ni" elsewhere, sticking with three more common ones.
My money is still on "sonohi sonohino katei," rather than "sono
hibino katei." Unless that makes less sense in Japanese than I think
it does.
I don't understand reading a clear "mata" as a strange/strained
"furu" in "sakugasurumo mata ..." in the second line.
I don't think there is a grammar problem in the 7th line. It must
say "kuwadatenarisi. Sareba..." I confess to reading that "sa" as
"wo" my first couple of times through.
You left out "no yayohi" from the after-line. Without that, is it
necessarily 1907? If they had adopted the Western calendar already,
but referred to it in old-calendar terms, yes, but if it's the old
calendar the years didn't overlap, and Meidi hinoto hituzi could have
been from some time in February 1907, give or take a couple weeks, to
some time February 1908. Yayohi might have been about April.
By the way, how would you read that "yuhe yosiwo (shoku) nasu," which
I took as a funny way to write "... sirusu," at the end?
> Someone might translate this into modern Japaese, and in turn into
> English.
In my expereience it's often easier to go directly from earlier
Japanese into English than into Japanese. Given that one is a native
speaker of the target language.
Bart
Phil Healey
> "Phil Healey" <com.hotmail@psa_healey> wrote in message
> news:2003092707...@adlerpacific.com...
>
> 大変よく読んでいらっしゃると思いますが・・・
いやいや。
> >
> > Here's my outrageously audacious (and in all likelihood fantastically
> > incorrect) attempt at a translation into modern Japanese. Everybody get
> > out your red pens...
> >
> > 5日に一枚の絵を描いて、10日毎に一石を作るというのは
>
> 「一水を描く」も「一石を作る」も、多分、同じく「絵を描く」ということ
> では？
{snip}
では、上柴さんのコメントを反映させて（みて）、下記の訂正版を作りました。
これでどうでしょうか。
-------------
5日に一枚の絵を描いて、10日毎に一石を作るというのは昔の教えだが、
昔の人は実際に毎日の日課として作画をしていた。探幽翁は観音不動な
どの仏画を、北斎は狗子を、そして暁斎は観音像を毎日欠かさず描いて
いた。この前の明治30年、私の父親も先例にならうというわけではない
が、思うところがあったそうで、そのつぎの元旦から初めて毎朝机に向
かって、まずは小品を描いていった。それがこの日々の作品である。腕
を研こうという試みであったことはいうまでもないが、また同時に絵日
記として後々思いだすための手がかりにしたいと思ってされたことでも
あったので、新旧の年中行事の日にはその様子を描き、それ以外のとき
はいつも心ゆくままに俳画を描いたり、昔の名手の絵を摸写したりして、
最終的に「絵画随筆」とでもいうようなものになったと言えよう。しか
し、こうして半年もすぎないうちに病気で死んだことは本当に残念だっ
た。かつて滑稽堂の主人がその一部を印刷したけれど、今回は画題解説
でも添えようと思って、私はこの序文を書くように依頼された。そこで、
この序文において簡単にその経緯を書いておこうとしているのである。
--------------
※「５日に一枚の絵を描く」と「10日に一石を作る」とが同じ意味である
ということだったが、原文を反映するために現行の訳をそのままにしました。
※最後から２文目の主語が全然分かりませんでした。「私に。。。依頼された」
の主語はだれ？滑稽堂の主人？まさか「病気で死んだ」お父さんじゃあるまい
し。。。ご指導のほど、よろしくお願いします。
Once those corrections are done, we'll have to find somebody to
translate this bad boy into English... I did the gendaigoyaku, so maybe
we should have a NSoJ English it. Under normal circumstances, I would
fully agree with your suggestion, Bart, that the translation be done
into the translator's native language, but this way it can be a learning
experience.
So, any volunteers?
--
Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:16:00 -1000
Linux 2.4.20-20.9
Mutt 1.4.1i (2003-03-19)
A suburban distance lying across your chest, a purpled frock
befitting the asphyxiated, cans of lima beans upon your knees,
you are truly a goddess of disturbed tranquility!
ueshiba
>
> character, but not to much about the "omoideGUSA (SOU?)" because that
> is a very *hard* easy character.
Yes. It's in fact "kusa-kanmuri".
> kept *trying* to read "yoneSHIMA" but kept deciding it couldn't be
> "shima."
嶌 （"yama" on "tori"）.
> On the other hand, it seems to me that the character after "towoka"
> in line 1 could just as well be the "mimi"karano"ni."
It might be, though that sort of "ni" is, in common, written more
simply, such as three vertical lines under one horizontal line at most.
(more simply, it looks like kana "ri" with short vertical line at the top
of the first vertical line).
There seems, to me, to be several horizontal lines and deciphered
it as "koto".
> My money is still on "sonohi sonohino katei," rather than "sono
> hibino katei."
This is my typo. I should have added one more repetation mark.
> I don't understand reading a clear "mata" as a strange/strained
> "furu" in "sakugasurumo mata ..." in the second line.
Oh, this is "mata" !!
> I don't think there is a grammar problem in the 7th line. It must
> say "kuwadatenarisi. Sareba..."
You are right.
> You left out "no yayohi" from the after-line. Without that, is it
> necessarily 1907?
明治丁未 is in itself 1907. It has nothing to do with "yayohi".
> If they had adopted the Western calendar already,
> but referred to it in old-calendar terms, yes, but if it's the old
> calendar the years didn't overlap, and Meidi hinoto hituzi could have
> been from some time in February 1907, give or take a couple weeks, to
> some time February 1908. Yayohi might have been about April.
Meiji Government decided on Nov. 9, 1872 (Meiji 5 nen) that
coming Dec. 3, Meiji 5 would be changed to Jan. 1, Meiji 6.
The days between Dec. 3 to Dec. 30(?) were lost ( at least on
Japanese history ??!! I wonder there was the same phenomenon
in USA in 1783 when it adapted the Gregorian Calender (?) ).
After that, there is no trouble to change the "kan-si" year into
Western year.
Kouji Ueshiba
ueshiba
>
> ※最後から２文目の主語が全然分かりませんでした。「私に。。。依頼された」
> の主語はだれ？滑稽堂の主人？まさか「病気で死んだ」お父さんじゃあるまい
> し。。。ご指導のほど、よろしくお願いします。
嘱したのは滑稽堂主人では？
なお、これを書いた米島満明という人は、「家厳」という言葉（他人が
この言葉を使うことは、普通は、ない）や「倣ひなどしたまひければ」
「廃せられぬる」の敬語の*調子*からして、これらの絵を描いていた
人の家族の一人（例えば息子さん）なのではないでしょうか？
上 柴 公 二
jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com
>Meiji Government decided on Nov. 9, 1872 (Meiji 5 nen) that
>coming Dec. 3, Meiji 5 would be changed to Jan. 1, Meiji 6.
>The days between Dec. 3 to Dec. 30(?) were lost ( at least on
>Japanese history ??!! I wonder there was the same phenomenon
>in USA in 1783 when it adapted the Gregorian Calender (?) ).
>After that, there is no trouble to change the "kan-si" year into
>Western year.
Well, the American colonies went onto the Gergorian calendar in
1751/52 at the same time as England. There were "lost days" at that time.
Some people went on using the Julian calendar, so things were a bit
confused for some years, and records can be hard to reconcile.
Bart Mathias
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote ...
> > I don't think there is a grammar problem in the 7th line. It
> > must say "kuwadatenarisi. Sareba..."
> You are right.
I worried, after sending the above, about the rentaidome. Do you
suppose he really meant it in the sense of "... kuwadatedatta*no*da.
Dakara..."? If so, maybe he was very good at bungo. But I'm a
little uneasy about two of the three izenkei.
> ...
> Meiji Government decided on Nov. 9, 1872 (Meiji 5 nen) that coming
> Dec. 3, Meiji 5 would be changed to Jan. 1, Meiji 6. The days
> between Dec. 3 to Dec. 30(?) were lost ( at least on Japanese
> history ??!! I wonder there was the same phenomenon in USA in 1783
> when it adapted the Gregorian Calender (?) ). After that, there is
> no trouble to change the "kan-si" year into Western year.
Again I learn something good from you. I hope I can remember that
date, Meiji 6. Should I understand that your "Dec. 3" really means
"shiwasuno mikka"?
I don't know the details, but I understand that changing to the
Gregorian Calendar created analogous situations for each country as
it did so.
Bart
ueshiba
> date, Meiji 6. Should I understand that your "Dec. 3" really means
> "shiwasuno mikka"?
Yes, 12 gatu (10 + 2 + "tuki" in kanji in not so less cases) 3 ka
of Kyuu-reki.
I read several correspondences between Tokugawa Shogunate
and foreign diplomats (UK, France, USA, etc) in later Edo period,
in which there are many portions telling that we received your letter
on xxxx day, and sent our letter on yyyy day.
Each of them wrote these days according to their own calender,
neglecting the day on the letter of the other side and vhanging
it to the one of his calender. Conversion table was a must for both
of them, I wonder.
Kouji Ueshiba
.
Bart Mathias
of the pictures the text accompanied. In response, I sent a synopsis
of what I had come to understand of the text on the basis of Kouji
Ueshiba's readings. I didn't mean to let the exchange between him
and Phil get away before digesting it, but unfortunately I love to
delete and haven't done that careful a rereading of the text since
finding out what it really says, so my synopsis was likely way off.
I'm posting here (more or less) what I mailed to Capt. Allen.
Anybody want to point out the booboos?
Bart
Here is my impression of what the text is all about, based on
Ueshiba's readings. (Ueshiba is one of the two or three
fairly-regular readers of the NG who can read that kind of text
better than I ever could even when I was fairly adept.)
It is indeed a preface, written by the artist's son. (Except I worry
about the honorific language used about the artist's activities. A
son certainly wouldn't use such language about his father nowadays.
But the first character of the text-author's surname and the artist's
nom-de-plume are the same.)
It sounds like the artist may have taken up painting late in life
(but if so, he's awfully good!), working hard at it like certain
famous artists who diligently painted every morning (as opposed to
the folklore that one should take five days to do a painting, 10 days
to do a sculpture? wild guess). After doing so for half a year, he
had a stroke or something and quit painting. (The three pictures M.
A. sent me are dated different days in January 1907.)
The text talks about painting the essence of holidays and painting
whatever struck his fancy on other days. It seems to say they were
turned into a (wood-block?) collection of picture-essays.
And then there is talk about perhaps a re-release of the collection
with commentary, for which this text is to be the preface. But I
must be taking something wrong here, or there should be a page of
writing here and there besides the preface, at least one such page
for every few pictures, if not every one.