translation needed
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A proposal has come up in an artificial languages discussion group to create
> a T-shirt. The proposed design is to have a single phrase in many languages,
> both real and invented. Can someone please confirm if this translation is
> both correct and natural in Japanese:
>
> "Your language goes here"
> 『貴方の言語はここを』
> "anata no gengo wa koko o"
I should think "koko de" might be better. I'll leave the rest of it for the more
knowledgeable among us.
Jim Breen
>>A proposal has come up in an artificial languages discussion group to create
>>a T-shirt. The proposed design is to have a single phrase in many languages,
>>both real and invented. Can someone please confirm if this translation is
>>both correct and natural in Japanese:
>>"Your language goes here"
>>『貴方の言語はここを』
>>"anata no gengo wa koko o"
I am worried about that "anata no". Feels like 外人日本語 to me. What
do the native speakers say? Annie? Lei? Anyone?
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, Fax: +61 3 9905 3574
Clayton VIC 3168, Australia ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Anthony J. Bryant
> Fabian <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote:
>
> >>A proposal has come up in an artificial languages discussion group to create
> >>a T-shirt. The proposed design is to have a single phrase in many languages,
> >>both real and invented. Can someone please confirm if this translation is
> >>both correct and natural in Japanese:
>
> >>"Your language goes here"
> >>『貴方の言語はここを』
> >>"anata no gengo wa koko o"
>
> I am worried about that "anata no". Feels like 外人日本語 to me. What
> do the native speakers say? Annie? Lei? Anyone?
I agree, it sounds... ick. How about:
「御言語はここを」
instead? Using an honorific to imply it's "your" ?
Tony
Keith Finch
Jim Breen wrote:
>
> Fabian <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote:
>
> >>A proposal has come up in an artificial languages discussion group to create
> >>a T-shirt. The proposed design is to have a single phrase in many languages,
> >>both real and invented. Can someone please confirm if this translation is
> >>both correct and natural in Japanese:
>
> >>"Your language goes here"
> >>『貴方の言語はここを』
> >>"anata no gengo wa koko o"
>
> I am worried about that "anata no". Feels like 外人日本語 to me. What
> do the native speakers say? Annie? Lei? Anyone?
And who writes "anata" in kanji? Feels like ワープロ日本語 to me.
iwasaki
Fabian wrote in message <7udbec$2m3q$1...@quince.news.easynet.net>...
>
>"Your language goes here"
>『貴方の言語はここを』
>"anata no gengo wa koko o"
It seems to me that "anata"in kanji and the word "gengo" are too formal.
My preference is 「ここに、あなたの言葉が」.
"koko ni anata no kotoba ga".
Nobuko Iwasaki
muchan
> >>"Your language goes here"
> >>『貴方の言語はここを』
> >>"anata no gengo wa koko o"
>
> do the native speakers say? Annie? Lei? Anyone?
Written in Japanese, aimed to Japanese reader, and "your language here",
then I'd go simply with, "Nihongo-de doozo" button.
muchan
Annie
> Hi,
>
> A proposal has come up in an artificial languages discussion group to create
> a T-shirt. The proposed design is to have a single phrase in many languages,
> both real and invented. Can someone please confirm if this translation is
> both correct and natural in Japanese:
>
> "Your language goes here"
> 『貴方の言語はここを』
> "anata no gengo wa koko o"
>
I can't understand what "an artificial languages discussion group"
exactly means.
To discuss variant languages, such as English, Japanese and French all
together?
Or discuss the languages separately; that is some people discuss about
English here and some discuss about Japanese there? (Maybe, no.)
Or something else, such as Esperant?
Does the T-shirt have another information that shows the phrase ("Your
language goes here" in many languages) is talking about language
discussion group?
If I have no informatin that the phrase is talking about language
discussion group, I can't understand the phrase "anata no gengo wa koko
o".
If I have already know the phrase is talking about language discussion
group;
Prince Richard Kaminski <richard....@lineone.net> wrote:
> I should think "koko de" might be better.
Yes. "koko de" is better.
But;
Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> I am worried about that "anata no". Feels like 外人日本語 to me. What
> do the native speakers say? Annie? Lei? Anyone?
Yes. Feels like 外人日本語, or feel like _your language only_.
It sounds to me "Let's talk about _your language (Japanese) only_ here
and about other language in other place.". Is it OK?
Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> I agree, it sounds... ick. How about:
> 「御言語はここを」
> instead? Using an honorific to imply it's "your" ?
It sounds (looks) weird.
iwasaki <piano...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
> It seems to me that "anata"in kanji and the word "gengo" are too formal.
> My preference is 「ここに、あなたの言葉が」.
> "koko ni anata no kotoba ga".
But 'anata no kotoba' sounds something like "what you said.", doesn't
it?
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Fabian
iwasaki kakimashita
> Fabian wrote in message
> >
> >"Your language goes here"
> >『貴方の言語はここを』
> >"anata no gengo wa koko o"
>
> It seems to me that "anata"in kanji and the word "gengo" are too formal.
>
> My preference is 「ここに、あなたの言葉が」.
> "koko ni anata no kotoba ga".
I considered kotoba instead of gengo, but that word seemed to imply spoken
language. This artificial languages group has seen all sorts, including a
language based on a combination of odour and colour! Is there a Japanese
word which means 'language', but does not imply whether it is spoken,
written, or anything else? Something that simply means 'a means of
communication'? 'gengo' was the most neutral word I could find. Is the
semantic meaning of gengo and kotoba different?
Annie Wrote:
<--
I can't understand what "an artificial languages discussion group"
exactly means.
To discuss variant languages, such as English, Japanese and French all
together?
Or discuss the languages separately; that is some people discuss about
English here and some discuss about Japanese there? (Maybe, no.)
Or something else, such as Esperanto?
-->
The artificial languages mailing list invents and discusses human (and
sometimes alien) languages. Esperanto, Klingon, and Tolkein's Elvish are the
most famous examples of such languages. Some of these invented languages are
created out of whole cloth; others are created by taking parts from existing
languages. For example, one invented language is based on Japanese yamato
kotoba root words, with the sounds modified based on a hypothetical dinosaur
vocal tract, and then re-interpreted using Arabic morphology!
<--
Does the T-shirt have another information that shows the phrase ("Your
language goes here" in many languages) is talking about language
discussion group?
-->
No. I guess this is the ultimate example of those T-shirts that have foreign
writing on them. That is, the ones worn by people who have no idea what it
actually says. The idea is to have the same phrase, in many different
languages, written on the front and back of the T-shirt. I suppose the fact
that some of these will be in an artificial language, that would provide
some context.
A pedantic version of the text would be:
"[The language that you have invented] should be placed here."
Specifically, 'your language' should not be translated as 'nihongo', as
Muchan suggested.
Darn, I thought this was going to be easy :(
---
Fabian
I know you understand what you thought I said,
But I'm not sure you understand that what you
thought I said is not what I meant to say.
Lei Tanabe
Jim Breen wrote in message <7udngd$f9b$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>...
>Fabian <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote:
>
>>>A proposal has come up in an artificial languages discussion group to
create
>>>a T-shirt. The proposed design is to have a single phrase in many
languages,
>>>both real and invented. Can someone please confirm if this translation is
>>>both correct and natural in Japanese:
>
>>>『貴方の言語はここを』
>>>"anata no gengo wa koko o"
>
>do the native speakers say? Annie? Lei? Anyone?
I can't quite understand what an artificial languages discussion group is
and what you want to mean with "Your language goes here".
Hmmm, 「日本語はこちら」nihongo wa kochira?
Lei
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian wrote:
> For example, one invented language is based on Japanese yamato
> kotoba root words, with the sounds modified based on a hypothetical dinosaur
> vocal tract, and then re-interpreted using Arabic morphology!
Sounds a perfect way to spend your time to me ...
(Now, where was that volume on dinosaur vocal tracts ...?)
Jim Breen
>> For example, one invented language is based on Japanese yamato
>> kotoba root words, with the sounds modified based on a hypothetical dinosaur
>> vocal tract, and then re-interpreted using Arabic morphology!
You forgot to mention that it is written in kamigana.
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Charles Eicher
>
>The artificial languages mailing list invents and discusses human (and
>sometimes alien) languages. Esperanto, Klingon, and Tolkein's Elvish are the
>most famous examples of such languages. Some of these invented languages are
>created out of whole cloth; others are created by taking parts from existing
>kotoba root words, with the sounds modified based on a hypothetical dinosaur
>vocal tract, and then re-interpreted using Arabic morphology!
<otaku rant warning>
Jesus F. Christ! I thought I'd heard every variation of otaku-ism, but this
takes the cake. I would like to point out that there are REAL languages that are
in sad need of study because they are going extinct, but instead, you idiots are
sitting around analysing KLINGON and ELVISH.
I recently read a paper about a linguist studying the last two users of of a
dying American Indian language. One man, who understood the written language,
but not the spoken one, was blind. The other could understand the spoken
language, but not the written, but he was deaf. The language cannot be recorded
or studied, but if only ONE linguist had discovered the endangered status of
this language before the two men became old and handicapped, the language might
not have died such an ignoble death.
If only some of the energy you expend discussing these fictional languages could
be harnessed for something useful! But no, you would rather study something that
doesn't even exist. I cannot even feel pity for someone who wastes their life so
frivolously.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Charles Eicher wrote:
What makes you think that studying the way dinosaurs might have used Yamatokotoba
with Arabic inflections is a waste of time?
Ross Klatte
>Date: Wed, 20 October 1999 01:15 AM EDT
>What makes you think that studying the way dinosaurs might have
>used Yamatokotoba with Arabic inflections is a waste of time?
>
Actually, in my library I have a copy of Thesaurus Rex.
Annie
> The artificial languages mailing list invents and discusses human (and
> sometimes alien) languages. Esperanto, Klingon, and Tolkein's Elvish are the
> most famous examples of such languages. Some of these invented languages are
> created out of whole cloth; others are created by taking parts from existing
> languages. For example, one invented language is based on Japanese yamato
> kotoba root words, with the sounds modified based on a hypothetical dinosaur
> vocal tract, and then re-interpreted using Arabic morphology!
>
> A pedantic version of the text would be:
>
> "[The language that you have invented] should be placed here."
>
> Specifically, 'your language' should not be translated as 'nihongo', as
> Muchan suggested.
How about
"Minna no gengo ga koko ni (arimasu)."
"Minna no gengo wo koko de (katarou)."
Japanese "anata" is not fit in this case.
"Anata" generally sounds unfriendly, that is "you only".
I recommend "minna" (all, everyone) or "watashitachi" (we) or
"watashitachi minnna" (we all).
"Minna" and "watashitachi" sounds friendly, that is, we are of the same
family, of the same community, fellow members etc.
P.S.
> iwasaki kakimashita
I recommend you to write "iwasaki-san ga kakimashita"
"iwasaki kakimashita" sounds very rude.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Fabian
Jim Breen hu kiteb
> Fabian wrote:
> >> For example, one invented language is based on Japanese yamato
> >> kotoba root words, with the sounds modified based on a hypothetical
dinosaur
> >> vocal tract, and then re-interpreted using Arabic morphology!
>
> You forgot to mention that it is written in kamigana.
I suspect that dinosaurs did not have the necessary manipulative limbs to
invent a writing system.
On the off-chance that this was a serious reply, was kamigana the name of
the *really* old Japanese script. I recall reading once that there used to
be something halfway between modern kana and the original hanzi used for
Japanese.
ps: My spellchecker wants to turn kamigana into champagne.
---
Fabian
May this missive repay the kindness of my patrons.
May it mitigate the sufferings of the lost and the damned.
May all that read it find their hearts turned towards Truth and Honour.
and in so doing, repay me for the ardours of my labour.
Fabian
Annie hi kitbet
> Fabian <rhi...@chikyuujin.earthling.net> wrote:
> > A pedantic version of the text would be:
> >
> > "[The language that you have invented] should be placed here."
>
> How about
> "Minna no gengo ga koko ni (arimasu)."
> "Minna no gengo wo koko de (katarou)."
>
> Japanese "anata" is not fit in this case.
> "Anata" generally sounds unfriendly, that is "you only".
>
> I recommend "minna" (all, everyone) or "watashitachi" (we) or
> "watashitachi minnna" (we all).
> "Minna" and "watashitachi" sounds friendly, that is, we are of the same
> family, of the same community, fellow members etc.
I believe 'anata' is used (possibly overused) in advertising in Japan. It
was this nuance in the English word 'you' that I was trying to get across -
the idea of a salesman trying to sell an idea. Unless it is totally wrong, I
will use ????????????
> P.S.
> > iwasaki kakimashita
>
> I recommend you to write "iwasaki-san ga kakimashita"
> "iwasaki kakimashita" sounds very rude.
Thanks. I normally use a maltese version of that, but for some mad reason I
didn't that time. Probably because I wasn't sure whether 'iwasaki' is male
or female (it makes a difference in some languages).
---
Fabian
Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
Fabian
Charles Eicher hu kiteb
> In article <7uiajo$1ue7$1...@quince.news.easynet.net>, "Fabian" says...
> >
> >The artificial languages mailing list invents and discusses human (and
> >sometimes alien) languages. Esperanto, Klingon, and Tolkein's Elvish are
the
> >most famous examples of such languages. Some of these invented languages
are
> >created out of whole cloth; others are created by taking parts from
existing
> >languages. For example, one invented language is based on Japanese yamato
> >kotoba root words, with the sounds modified based on a hypothetical
dinosaur
> >vocal tract, and then re-interpreted using Arabic morphology!
>
> <otaku rant warning>
Whee! My very own rant!
Oh, and I dedicate this link to you, Chaz:
<http://member.nifty.ne.jp/hobbit/tolkien/tengwar/index.html>
[nihonshiki no erufuji]
> Jesus F. Christ! I thought I'd heard every variation of otaku-ism, but
this
> takes the cake. I would like to point out that there are REAL languages
that are
> in sad need of study because they are going extinct, but instead, you
idiots are
> sitting around analysing KLINGON and ELVISH.
Perhaps it is a waste of time. I say then that spectator sports such as
football, baseball and cricket are wastes of time. So too is following the
interminal dreariness that is soap opera. So to is watching Jerry Springer
and his clones.
Yet those activities cover a good 99% of the population in the western
world. Are they too wasting their time by your standards? Can you honestly
say you do nothing which can be considered a waste of time?
> I recently read a paper about a linguist studying the last two users of of
a
> dying American Indian language. One man, who understood the written
language,
> but not the spoken one, was blind. The other could understand the spoken
> language, but not the written, but he was deaf. The language cannot be
recorded
> or studied, but if only ONE linguist had discovered the endangered status
of
> this language before the two men became old and handicapped, the language
might
> not have died such an ignoble death.
Consider this. A former member of the conlang list is now the current god of
language for Nepal. That is his actual job title. I like to think his
interest in artificial languages had something to do with his current job.
Personally, I would be happy to study a rare and endangered language. many
people would. But those many people also need to keep body and soul
together. It is a sad fact that those who want to do so often lack the money
to do so. Care to fund me?
> If only some of the energy you expend discussing these fictional languages
could
> be harnessed for something useful! But no, you would rather study
something that
> doesn't even exist. I cannot even feel pity for someone who wastes their
life so
> frivolously.
Whereas the lives of those poor saps (such as they are) portrayed on Jerry
Springer do exist. Therefore, studying those lives is a useful activity,
riight.
BTW, I suggest that you don't laugh and point at the ones who are curled up
in the foetal position and humming. They take it *very* seriously.
---
Fabian
Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
[above language learnt thanks to an interest in inventing new ones]
Ed Heil
my
experience people who enjoy the aesthetic exercise of constructing languages
tend to be *more* aware of the problem of language death than other people
are, and tend to be more appreciative of the unique nuances of exotic
languages than other people are. (Indeed, the most famous practicioners of
the art, Tolkien, M.A.R. Barker, and Marc Okrand, are or were all
professional
linguists themselves, with a respectable amount of real-world linguistics
work
to their credit.)
One might as well object to anyone painting new paintings because it is
"frivolous" to do so, in a world where old Renaissance masterworks may be
crumbling for lack of restorative work... Or object to anyone writing new
books when there are ancient manuscripts which need to be photographed and
catalogued.
If there is anyone who has ever made time for the hobby of language
construction by neglecting work they would otherwise have done cataloguing
dying languages, I would be very surprised. And yet, if that is not the
case,
your complaint is utterly vacuous.
I guess I can only ask how you possibly justify spending time posting to
newsgroups when you could be spending your time preserving obscure
sub-dialects of Nez Pierce or something.
"Idiots" "unworthy of pity" who "waste their lives" indeed. One could say
the
same of someone who makes such immensely poorly thought out comments as you
have here, sir.
Ed
>===== Original Message From Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> =====
><otaku rant warning>
>
>Jesus F. Christ! I thought I'd heard every variation of otaku-ism, but this
>takes the cake. I would like to point out that there are REAL languages that
are
>in sad need of study because they are going extinct, but instead, you idiots
are
>sitting around analysing KLINGON and ELVISH.
>
>I recently read a paper about a linguist studying the last two users of of a
>dying American Indian language. One man, who understood the written language,
>but not the spoken one, was blind. The other could understand the spoken
>language, but not the written, but he was deaf. The language cannot be
recorded
>or studied, but if only ONE linguist had discovered the endangered status of
>this language before the two men became old and handicapped, the language
might
>not have died such an ignoble death.
>
Sean Holland
>
> Yet those activities cover a good 99% of the population in the western
> world. Are they too wasting their time by your standards? Can you honestly
> say you do nothing which can be considered a waste of time?
He's in here, isn't he?
Charles Eicher
>
Your response, even considering its origin from an otaku, is embarassingly
devoid of ideas. Perhaps you should compare your message with Ed Hien's, he at
least made an attempt to address the fundamental issues. I'll only briefly
address your comments, since a brief response is all they deserve.
>...Yet those activities cover a good 99% of the population in the western
>world. Are they too wasting their time by your standards? Can you honestly
>say you do nothing which can be considered a waste of time?
Sure, I have time-wasting hobbies, but I don't attempt to make a lifestyle out
of them.
>Consider this. A former member of the conlang list is now the current god of
>language for Nepal. That is his actual job title.
Yeah right. This is Nepal, on the planet Cybertron, in the 27th dimension?
>I like to think his
>interest in artificial languages had something to do with his current job.
Assuming this person actually exists, I can guarantee it had nothing to do with
his interest in non-existent languages, and everything to do with his knowledge
of the languages of Nepal.
>Personally, I would be happy to study a rare and endangered language. many
>people would. But those many people also need to keep body and soul
>together. It is a sad fact that those who want to do so often lack the money
>to do so. Care to fund me?
Sure. Send me all your otaku crap (manga, anime, video games, etc) and I'll sell
them for you. Even at 50 cents on the dollar, I bet I'll raise enough cash to
fund at least a whole semester of college tuition.
>Whereas the lives of those poor saps (such as they are) portrayed on Jerry
>Springer do exist. Therefore, studying those lives is a useful activity,
>riight.
What's this bit about Jerry Springer? The trailer-trash on JS can be excused
(even pitied) for their delusions. They are generally poor, uneducated, and
suffer from a wide range of problems. What's your excuse?
Charles Eicher
>
>Actually, Chuck-o, I've spent some time reading that mailing list. And in
>my
>experience people who enjoy the aesthetic exercise of constructing languages
>tend to be *more* aware of the problem of language death than other people
>are, and tend to be more appreciative of the unique nuances of exotic
>languages than other people are. (Indeed, the most famous practicioners of
>the art, Tolkien, M.A.R. Barker, and Marc Okrand, are or were all
>professional
>linguists themselves, with a respectable amount of real-world linguistics
>work
>to their credit.)
Hey, even linguists need hobbies. Just don't expect me to take such frivolous
hobbies seriously. But I will make one exception, in all seriousness. Please
forward me some information and citations of publications, and the name of the
guy who invented pseudo-Japanese dinosaur speech. I intend to nominate it for
the igNobel Prize. I'm 100% serious.
>One might as well object to anyone painting new paintings because it is
>"frivolous" to do so, in a world where old Renaissance masterworks may be
>crumbling for lack of restorative work... Or object to anyone writing new
>books when there are ancient manuscripts which need to be photographed and
>catalogued.
Your analogies are massively flawed. A more direct analogy would be an art
restorer who spends his time "researching" and analyzing the art techniques used
in Atlantis and how they would be restored, if they existed.
Let me give you a concrete, realworld example. Comedy Central channel's "The
Daily Show" presented the story of a librarian from the Library of Congress. The
story was presented completely deadpan, because sometimes truth is funnier than
fiction. The story covered the librarian's personal avocation, "The Library of
Erotica." Yes, the guy collected porn. He collected MASSIVE amounts of porn. He
had them all indexed and cross-indexed and catalogued, and had extensively
documented everything he owned. The "Library" was his bedroom, in the basement
of his mother's house, where he lived. And the punchline: he hired an aging,
retired porn actress to make his own video. They showed a segment of the film
(with a heavy mosaic) and you can even see his shelves of porn in the
background, the scene was filmed in his "Library."
Was this guy serious? Hell yes. He went on and on about the scholarly aspects of
his work. But it is obvious to everyone (EXCEPT himself) that he's just another
otaku who is obsessed with porn.
>If there is anyone who has ever made time for the hobby of language
>construction by neglecting work they would otherwise have done cataloguing
>dying languages, I would be very surprised. And yet, if that is not the
>case, your complaint is utterly vacuous.
I used it merely as an example. Life is too short to waste time researching
non-existent things. Even as an exercise in abstraction, it needs SOME sort of
basis in reality. Excuse me if I don't believe in elves or talking dinosaurs.
>I guess I can only ask how you possibly justify spending time posting to
>newsgroups when you could be spending your time preserving obscure
>sub-dialects of Nez Pierce or something.
I'm not a professional linguist, by training I am an artist. But its funny you
should mention that. My longest-running activity on Usenet is a continuous
battle in some arts newsgroups over photo-conservation issues relating to
ink-jet prints. I do have professional qualifications in photo-conservation. I
am battling some unscrupulous businessmen who are promoting "archival" inkjet
prints that supposedly will last for hundreds of years, when photo-conservators
all clearly know that these prints will fade away in about 5 years. Imagine what
would have happened if Daguerrotypes had not been archival, and every single
photo from that period had been lost. That would have been a tragic loss to the
historical record of the time. And now, due to the efforts of some fast-buck
operators, we are faced with that same possibility. If the entire photo industry
goes ink-jet (as it appears it will) then every photo print made in this
contemporary era will fade away and be irretrievably lost.
So, what have YOU done for the historical record lately?
>"Idiots" "unworthy of pity" who "waste their lives" indeed. One could say
>the
>same of someone who makes such immensely poorly thought out comments as you
>have here, sir.
I can say the same about your hasty, illogical, poorly thought out response. But
I invite you to try again.
Padraic Brown
: In article <7uldna$14it$8...@quince.news.easynet.net>, "Fabian" says...
: >
: Your response, even considering its origin from an otaku, is embarassingly
: devoid of ideas. Perhaps you should compare your message with Ed Hien's, he at
It's better thought out than yours. You decry an art or an artist that
you obviously know nothing about. You complain that they aren't doing
something useful. Are you a linguist? Do you study endangered languages?
What attempts have you made in the last decade that either preserve or
promote endangered languages? Have you gifted any university's linguistics
department in kind or in cash to help them with preservation efforts? How
many private efforts at language preservation or promotion have you either
taken part in or funded (in part or in whole)?
: least made an attempt to address the fundamental issues. I'll only briefly
: address your comments, since a brief response is all they deserve.
: >...Yet those activities cover a good 99% of the population in the western
: >world. Are they too wasting their time by your standards? Can you honestly
: >say you do nothing which can be considered a waste of time?
: Sure, I have time-wasting hobbies, but I don't attempt to make a lifestyle out
: of them.
Then shut your fool gob. Where in the original post does it state or
imply that these people "make a lifestyle" out of it? Their time wasting
hobby is no worse than yours.
: >Personally, I would be happy to study a rare and endangered language. many
: >people would. But those many people also need to keep body and soul
: >together. It is a sad fact that those who want to do so often lack the money
: >to do so. Care to fund me?
: Sure.
You'd actually make a grant of, say, $US35,000 (plus travel, equipment
room and board) for a year's work at preserving the language of your
choice? Put your money where your mouth is. I bet you won't.
Padraic Brown.
Charles Eicher
>
>Charles Eicher (cei...@inav.net) wrote:
>
>: I'm not a professional linguist, by training I am an artist.
>
>Then you ought to know better. These are _artists_.
What utter bullshit. These are otaku. I know the difference between otaku and
artists. Artists are people like Anthony Burgess, who invented slang language
forms derived from Russian for use in his book "A Clockwork Orange." I know all
about it, because I attended his lectures at the Iowa Writer's Workshop, back in
the mid-1970s (before the movie, IIRC). The audience always asked him about his
pseudo-language, and he always shut them down by telling them he just invented a
few words, and used a few in odd contexts, just to add some color to the novel,
and it was no new language. But that didn't stop misguided grad students from
writing papers about the "new language." I am continually astonished at peoples'
capacity for taking things far more seriously than they deserve.
>Their medium is the
>language instinct or the language organ (the part of the mind-brain that
>essentially gives us language).
ROTFLMAO!!! I've heard a lot of crazy linguistic theories in my day, but nothing
quite so ridiculous as that statement.
>Rather than just write a sonnet about a
>jug of wine; conlangers invent the language to write the poem in. Some
>invent the cultures to go with, and having figured out what to write the
>poem about and what poetic forms the language might have, proceed to write
>the poem.
You remind me of an "artist" I once knew. He told me about how he liked to go
out and paint in oil colors under yellow Sodium streetlights, at night. The
streetlights washed out all colors, so he had to label his colors on his
pallette, and attempt to mix them blindly. The result? Pure crap paintings.
Sure, its easy to set up some abstract condition under which you create
something. But it is NOT so easy to do something REAL, something that has impact
and relevance to this world. The study of REAL languages is far more interesting
than any abstract language invention, because it allows you to communicate with
REAL people. Try it sometime, you might be surprised. If you're really desperate
for pseudo-languages, try esperanto. There are at least a few hundred people who
understand it.
>Most of them are not trained linguists: of the trained
>linguists amongst them, most are not specialists in the area of language
>preservation.
Everyone seems stuck on my example, I only cited it as perhaps the peak activity
that might substitute for the bullshit one. But there are plenty of more
worthwhile activities, far more worthwhile than your linguistic masturbation.
Perhaps you might try donating your time to the local homeless shelter, or a
local nursing home, or etc. I've done that, its much more worthwhile than
sitting around inventing imaginary worlds.
>What's funny is that you, who call yourself an artist, see no value at all
>in another's artistic expression.
It is BECAUSE I am an artist that I take a very dim view of people who label
their hobbies as "Art." I just stopped reading one arts newsgroup due to a
contentious argument started by someone who declared EVERYTHING is Art. Sorry,
it isn't. What you do isn't art, it isn't even language, its pseudo-language.
[speaking of photoconservation]
>This is indeed a tradgedy, though of a different sort than language death.
>I certainly feel for you, your struggle and your avocation. I personally
>am not a photographer or photoconservator, so I really don't care. But
>I'm not going to yell at you for not preserving early lithographs!
Funny you should mention that, I'm currently working on lithographic
conservation issues.
>: So, what have YOU done for the historical record lately?
>
>Nice the way you cover your backside here. You go on about
>photoconservation, which is all well and good; but then you yell at
>linguistically oriented artists about not studying or preserving
>languages?
No, I'm yelling at them for their delusions that this is an artform, or even
something worthy of their intellectual efforts. Life is too short for such
bullshit. You've created a form of expression that is understood, at best, by a
single person, and even that person could not possibly have "understanding" in
the sense that any rational scientist would use.
>One might as well yell at you for not flying to Italy to help
>preserve masterwork frescoes that are always falling to bits in
>earthquakes.
Funny you should mention that, I used to work at The Getty, back when they were
restoring the Sistine Chapel. But that's another long story..
Padraic Brown
: I'm not a professional linguist, by training I am an artist.
Then you ought to know better. These are _artists_. Their medium is the
language instinct or the language organ (the part of the mind-brain that
essentially gives us language). Rather than just write a sonnet about a
jug of wine; conlangers invent the language to write the poem in. Some
invent the cultures to go with, and having figured out what to write the
poem about and what poetic forms the language might have, proceed to write
the poem. Most of them are not trained linguists: of the trained
linguists amongst them, most are not specialists in the area of language
preservation.
What's funny is that you, who call yourself an artist, see no value at all
in another's artistic expression.
: But its funny you
: should mention that. My longest-running activity on Usenet is a continuous
: battle in some arts newsgroups over photo-conservation issues relating to
: ink-jet prints. I do have professional qualifications in photo-conservation. I
: am battling some unscrupulous businessmen who are promoting "archival" inkjet
: prints that supposedly will last for hundreds of years, when photo-conservators
: all clearly know that these prints will fade away in about 5 years. Imagine what
: would have happened if Daguerrotypes had not been archival, and every single
: photo from that period had been lost. That would have been a tragic loss to the
: historical record of the time. And now, due to the efforts of some fast-buck
: operators, we are faced with that same possibility. If the entire photo industry
: goes ink-jet (as it appears it will) then every photo print made in this
: contemporary era will fade away and be irretrievably lost.
This is indeed a tradgedy, though of a different sort than language death.
I certainly feel for you, your struggle and your avocation. I personally
am not a photographer or photoconservator, so I really don't care. But
I'm not going to yell at you for not preserving early lithographs!
: So, what have YOU done for the historical record lately?
Nice the way you cover your backside here. You go on about
photoconservation, which is all well and good; but then you yell at
linguistically oriented artists about not studying or preserving
languages? One might as well yell at you for not flying to Italy to help
preserve masterwork frescoes that are always falling to bits in
earthquakes.
Padraic Brown.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian wrote:
> Probably because I wasn't sure whether 'iwasaki' is male
> or female (it makes a difference in some languages).
Well, it's a family name so it could be either.
>
> Fabian
> Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
> Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
> Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
> U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
I'm intrigued by this stuff. Would it be possible to have a translation for the
Maltese-challenged among us?
Doug Wickstrom
excited the ether to say:
>What utter bullshit. These are otaku. I know the difference between otaku and
>artists. Artists are people like Anthony Burgess, who invented slang language
>forms derived from Russian for use in his book "A Clockwork Orange." I know all
>about it, because I attended his lectures at the Iowa Writer's Workshop, back in
>the mid-1970s (before the movie, IIRC).
1971
HTH
--
Doug Wickstrom
"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm
just the one to do it." --a Texas congressional candidate
Padraic Brown
: In article <7um46l$6id$1...@nova.umuc.edu>, pbr...@nova.umuc.edu says...
: >
: >Charles Eicher (cei...@inav.net) wrote:
: >
: >: I'm not a professional linguist, by training I am an artist.
: >
: >Then you ought to know better. These are _artists_.
: What utter bullshit. These are otaku. I know the difference between otaku and
: artists.
Then you are no artist.
: >Their medium is the
: >language instinct or the language organ (the part of the mind-brain that
: >essentially gives us language).
: ROTFLMAO!!! I've heard a lot of crazy linguistic theories in my day, but nothing
: quite so ridiculous as that statement.
Certainly not accurate for all and probably poorly worded; but some work
in the area of what underlies human language.
: >Most of them are not trained linguists: of the trained
: >linguists amongst them, most are not specialists in the area of language
: >preservation.
: Everyone seems stuck on my example,
It _was_ your statement, after all!
: I only cited it as perhaps the peak activity
: that might substitute for the bullshit one.
Most likely you cited it because you understand neither.
: But there are plenty of more
: worthwhile activities,
More worthwhile than photography?
: far more worthwhile than your linguistic masturbation.
Ha!
: Perhaps you might try donating your time to the local homeless shelter, or a
: local nursing home, or etc. I've done that, its much more worthwhile than
: sitting around inventing imaginary worlds.
I already do that. Problem is, you are confusing constructed languages as
a hobby, as an art and as a lucrative pursuit. Turning language itself
into an artform is not especially profitable. Perhaps a handful of people
this century have done so with any success. Everyone else are teachers or
mothers or physicians or students or secretaries. Rather than build ships
in bottles or paint landscapes, they construct languages. The amount of
art in any of these will, of course, vary.
: >What's funny is that you, who call yourself an artist, see no value at all
: >in another's artistic expression.
: It is BECAUSE I am an artist that I take a very dim view of people who label
: their hobbies as "Art." I just stopped reading one arts newsgroup due to a
Sure not all of them pursue constructed languages _as_ an artform. Some
do. Others pursue it for fun or to study the workings of language.
_Because_ you are a (so called) artist, you ought to be able to detect
what _is_ done as an artform, as opposed to what is no more than a hobby.
: contentious argument started by someone who declared EVERYTHING is Art. Sorry,
: it isn't. What you do isn't art, it isn't even language, its pseudo-language.
I agree, everything is not art. It's sad you can't see artistry in
something new to you, however.
: >: So, what have YOU done for the historical record lately?
: >
: >Nice the way you cover your backside here. You go on about
: >photoconservation, which is all well and good; but then you yell at
: >linguistically oriented artists about not studying or preserving
: >languages?
: No, I'm yelling at them for their delusions that this is an artform, or even
: something worthy of their intellectual efforts. Life is too short for such
: bullshit. You've created a form of expression that is understood, at best, by a
: single person, and even that person could not possibly have "understanding" in
: the sense that any rational scientist would use.
Life is too short for your BS is more like it. I won't waste your
precious time trying to convince a small mind to open up a bit. I suppose
the best we could hope for is that we each have our idea of what art is,
and that they are (apparently) essentially different.
Padraic Brown.
Ed Heil
>hobbies seriously. But I will make one exception, in all seriousness. Please
>forward me some information and citations of publications, and the name of
the
>guy who invented pseudo-Japanese dinosaur speech. I intend to nominate it for
>the igNobel Prize. I'm 100% serious.
I'm not familiar with that particular project, but a quick search for
"constructed languages" or "conlang" in any web search engine will turn up
many examples of this sort of thing.
>Your analogies are massively flawed. A more direct analogy would be an art
>restorer who spends his time "researching" and analyzing the art techniques
>used in Atlantis and how they would be restored, if they existed.
No, we're talking about creating new (and previously non-existent) things,
not
researching non-existent things. If I may correct your analogy somewhat,
let's imagine someone, who may or may not work professionally with existing
artworks, who for his own amusement invents an entirely new set of art
techniques (he may or may not choose, for the sake of verisimilitude, to
attribute them to an imaginary historical period such as Atlantis). He then
creates works of art using these techniques.
>Let me give you a concrete, realworld example. Comedy Central channel's "The
>Daily Show" [...snip...]
>Was this guy serious? Hell yes. He went on and on about the scholarly aspects
>of his work. But it is obvious to everyone (EXCEPT himself) that he's just
>another otaku who is obsessed with porn.
Your objections all seem to center on the set of assumptions and prejudices
that underlie the all-purpose dismissive adjective, "Otaku," which I
understand is something like the word "geek."
I guess all I can say is if J.R.R. Tolkien is an "otaku" to you, I wish I
could be such an intelligent, knowledgeable, and creative "otaku" as that.
I
would be proud to be such an "otaku."
>I used it merely as an example. Life is too short to waste time researching
>non-existent things. Even as an exercise in abstraction, it needs SOME sort
of
>basis in reality. Excuse me if I don't believe in elves or talking dinosaurs.
You are excused, and if you find the whole enterprise of science fiction,
fantasy, and indeed fiction in general to be despicable, then you are being
consistent and I can respect your position, though I might disagree with it.
Not everyone enjoys the more fanciful products of the human imagination, and
I
can see that photography might be an excellent art-form for someone whose
tastes run in that direction -- unlike some art forms, it doesn't have to do
with making up beautiful things that "DON'T EVEN EXIST!" but rather consists
of finding and recording beautiful things in the real world.
If you think there is something specially loathsome about constructing
fictional languages, though, that is distinct from the loathsomeness that
might be inherent in constructing fictional planets or countries or
intelligent beings or stories or images or history, then I am afraid I don't
understand the difference.
[stuff about preservation of languages deleted since Mr. Eicher has already,
in another message, stated that he picked it out only as an extreme
example.]
-------------------------------------------
You're beautiful -- more beautiful than me.
You're honorable -- more honorable than me.
Loyal to the Bank of America.
edh...@mailandnews.com
-------------------------------------------
Fabian
Fabian hu kiteb
> I believe 'anata' is used (possibly overused) in advertising in Japan. It
> was this nuance in the English word 'you' that I was trying to get
across -
> the idea of a salesman trying to sell an idea. Unless it is totally wrong,
I
> will use ????????????
blah. That came out well, didn't it?
あなたの言語をここで
anata no gengo wo koko de
---
Fabian
Charles Eicher hu kiteb
> >Whereas the lives of those poor saps (such as they are) portrayed on
Jerry
> >Springer do exist. Therefore, studying those lives is a useful activity,
> >riight.
>
> What's this bit about Jerry Springer? The trailer-trash on JS can be
excused
> (even pitied) for their delusions. They are generally poor, uneducated,
and
> suffer from a wide range of problems. What's your excuse?
The people on Jerry Springer, I pity them. But as for the people who watch
the show, surely they could find something more constructive, no?
I was thinking a while about what you said about how artificial languages
does nothing to support dying languages, and I realised from personal
experience that you are totally wrong in that regard.
Now, Maltese is my mother's native language, but due to a serious amount of
isolation (she was the only Maltese speaker for a thousand miles, in an age
when personal Email was a pipe dream and international phone calls an
extravagant expense), I never really picked up much Maltese.
It is because of my interest in artificial languages that I have taken the
time to relearn Maltese. And maltese is a dying language. Maybe not in the
same league as certain Native American languages, but dying nonetheless.
When I have children, I fully intend to make sure that they know some
Maltese.
That is my contribution towards preserving a dying language. It is inspired
by an interest in artificial languages.
Fabian
Prince Richard Kaminski hu kiteb
> > Fabian
> > Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
> > Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
> > Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
> > U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
>
> I'm intrigued by this stuff. Would it be possible to have a translation
for
> the
> Maltese-challenged among us?
ok, interlinear coming up. Apologies in advance for the way line wrapping
will mess this up.
Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
he.will that that the-writing she.repay the-goodness of heart of patrons
mine.
Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
he.will that he.relieve suffering of.the-lost.ones and of.the-damned.ones.
Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
he.will that all that they.read the-writing, their.heart he.love the-truth
and the-honour
U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
and with'that the'action, I.am.paid of.the-work difficult
All highly off-topic for slj. Richard, Email me if you want more of this
otakuistic bulldada.
OBslm: I think that jtaffi should be ttaffi.
Fabian
Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> wrote in message
news:7uluqa$24...@edrn.newsguy.com...
This analogy is flawed. Most conlangers do not have the necessary training
to properly study a real world language in the field. You are suggesting
that people without adequate training do serious work in the field.
> basis in reality. Excuse me if I don't believe in elves or talking
dinosaurs.
They are real, dammit <stamps foot>!
> >I guess I can only ask how you possibly justify spending time posting to
> >newsgroups when you could be spending your time preserving obscure
> >sub-dialects of Nez Pierce or something.
>
> I'm not a professional linguist, by training I am an artist
Funny, most of us are not 'professional linguists', yet you fault us for not
doing the work of professional linguists. You seem to be the kind that would
want amateur computer programmers to write operating systems. Oh, wait...
Charles, it is clear that we disagree. You claim to be an artist, and you
seem to think that enables you to render an absolute opinion on what is art.
What did the established artists think of Cubism? Of Pop music? Of Jazz?
Heck, back in the seventeenth century, the Baroque establishment threw its
collective hands up in horror at the thought of Classical music.
Language is but another art form. This is why some people are able to
perceive particular languages as being 'beautiful'. I pity your inability to
see this art.
--
---
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian wrote:
> Prince Richard Kaminski hu kiteb
>
> > > Fabian
> > > Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
> > > Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
> > > Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
> > > U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
> >
> > I'm intrigued by this stuff. Would it be possible to have a translation
> for
> > the
> > Maltese-challenged among us?
>
> ok, interlinear coming up. Apologies in advance for the way line wrapping
> will mess this up.
>
> Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
> he.will that that the-writing she.repay the-goodness of heart of patrons
> mine.
>
> Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
> he.will that he.relieve suffering of.the-lost.ones and of.the-damned.ones.
>
> Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
> he.will that all that they.read the-writing, their.heart he.love the-truth
> and the-honour
>
> U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
> and with'that the'action, I.am.paid of.the-work difficult
>
> All highly off-topic for slj. Richard, Email me if you want more of this
> otakuistic bulldada.
>
> OBslm: I think that jtaffi should be ttaffi.
>
> ---
> Fabian
> May this missive repay the kindness of my patrons.
> May it mitigate the sufferings of the lost and the damned.
> May all that read it find their hearts turned towards Truth and Honour.
> and in so doing, repay me for the ardours of my labour.
Very nice. Is it from the Koran?
iwasaki
Fabian wrote in message <7uiajo$1ue7$1...@quince.news.easynet.net>...
>
>I considered kotoba instead of gengo, but that word seemed to imply spoken
>language. This artificial languages group has seen all sorts, including a
>language based on a combination of odour and colour! Is there a Japanese
>word which means 'language', but does not imply whether it is spoken,
>written, or anything else? Something that simply means 'a means of
>communication'? 'gengo' was the most neutral word I could find. Is the
>semantic meaning of gengo and kotoba different?
Basically, "gengo" and "kotoba" mean the same: both of them include
spoken language, written language and even artificial language. But
its usage varies.
The Japanese translation of the artificial languages is:
人工語 (jinkougo)
And Esperanto is sometimes refered to as:
人工語 (jinkougo)
国際語 (kokusaigo)
世界語 (sekaigo)
造語 (zougo)
人造語 (jinzougo)
>A pedantic version of the text would be:
>
>"[The language that you have invented] should be placed here."
Then, how about
私製言語 受け付けます
shisei gengo uketsuke masu
Nobuko Iwasaki
iwasaki
Annie wrote in message <1dzzxdc.1q4...@tc-1-085.kyoto.gol.ne.jp>...
>
>How about
>"Minna no gengo ga koko ni (arimasu)."
Either sounds natural to me, but I think it would be better without
"arimasu" or "katarou".
>Japanese "anata" is not fit in this case.
>"Anata" generally sounds unfriendly, that is "you only".
If you change "ga" or "wo" into "mo",
あなたの言語も、ここに
anata no gengo mo koko ni
あなたの言語も、ここで
anata no gengo mo koko de
it does not sound "unfriendly".
>I recommend "minna" (all, everyone) or "watashitachi" (we) or
>"watashitachi minnna" (we all).
I would prefer "minna" to "watashitachi" and "watashitachi minna"
in this case.
>P.S.
>> iwasaki kakimashita
>
>I recommend you to write "iwasaki-san ga kakimashita"
Or just simply, "Iwasaki iwaku"
Nobuko Iwasaki
Jim Breen
>>Jim Breen hu kiteb
>>> You forgot to mention that it is written in kamigana.
>>On the off-chance that this was a serious reply, was kamigana the name of
>>the *really* old Japanese script. I recall reading once that there used to
>>be something halfway between modern kana and the original hanzi used for
>>Japanese.
AFAIK kamigana was a total fabrication, cooked up in the early 1920s
to prove that there was a Japanese writing system before those nasty foreign
Chinese characters arrived on the scene.
>>ps: My spellchecker wants to turn kamigana into champagne.
Watch out; the WTO and the French Bureau d'Apellation will prosecute
you unless change it immediately to something else such as
"budoutansanen".
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, Fax: +61 3 9905 3574
Clayton VIC 3168, Australia ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Doobieous
>What utter bullshit. These are otaku. I know the difference between otaku and
>artists.
Really? I couldn't tell.
>
>You remind me of an "artist" I once knew. He told me about how he liked to go
>out and paint in oil colors under yellow Sodium streetlights, at night. The
>streetlights washed out all colors, so he had to label his colors on his
>pallette, and attempt to mix them blindly. The result? Pure crap paintings.
>
Really? I'm surprised as an 'artist' you find his work crap. I suppose
you dislike conceptual art as well? Mr. Eicher God of Art and all that
is not frivolous should be your official title.
>
>Everyone seems stuck on my example, I only cited it as perhaps the peak activity
>that might substitute for the bullshit one. But there are plenty of more
>worthwhile activities, far more worthwhile than your linguistic masturbation.
>Perhaps you might try donating your time to the local homeless shelter, or a
>local nursing home, or etc. I've done that, its much more worthwhile than
>sitting around inventing imaginary worlds.
>
Hmm there' your problem,you assume conlangers spend all of their time
working on their languages. I am a part of the conlang list and my
language takes up a fraction of my time. Lets see, this week i spent
how many hours working on my language, and how many hours on school
work? Conlang - 0, School, about 40 hrs. Oh and I have done and
continue to do community service. I work to help children whose
reading skills are not up to par to improve them. Oh and their
teachers praise me for the help I give, not to mention my club at
school works to help kids with their homework afterschool, oh and dont
forget the work i do to erradicate non-native plants from this area.
I guess i'm wasting my entire life by inventing new languages, right?
While all the other stuff I do doesnt count.
>It is BECAUSE I am an artist that I take a very dim view of people who label
>their hobbies as "Art." I just stopped reading one arts newsgroup due to a
>contentious argument started by someone who declared EVERYTHING is Art. Sorry,
>it isn't. What you do isn't art, it isn't even language, its pseudo-language.
>
Hmm a non linguist proclaiming to know what is language, and an art
god who claims to know what is and what isnt art. I wonder, do your
friends think you are a know it all?
You should not assume things about people you dont even know. Do you
stereotype other people for how they act? Or do you believe certain
groups are all the same way? Such thinking leads to stereotypes, and
prejudice.
Gerald B Mathias
: Prince Richard Kaminski hu kiteb
:> I'm intrigued by this stuff. Would it be possible to have a translation
: for
:> the
:> Maltese-challenged among us?
: ok, interlinear coming up. Apologies in advance for the way line wrapping
: will mess this up.
: Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
: he.will that that the-writing she.repay the-goodness of heart of patrons
: mine.
: Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
: he.will that he.relieve suffering of.the-lost.ones and of.the-damned.ones.
: Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
: he.will that all that they.read the-writing, their.heart he.love the-truth
: and the-honour
: U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.
: and with'that the'action, I.am.paid of.the-work difficult
Is this really Maltese? (I have to shamefacedly confess I don't know what
Maltese is or where spoken.)
I'm intrigued by the similarity of the word for "write/written/wrote" to
Turkish and ultimately Arabic words for the same notion. Coincidence?
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
:>>> You forgot to mention that it is written in kamigana.
:>>On the off-chance that this was a serious reply, was kamigana the name of
:>>the *really* old Japanese script. I recall reading once that there used to
:>>be something halfway between modern kana and the original hanzi used for
:>>Japanese.
: AFAIK kamigana was a total fabrication, cooked up in the early 1920s
: to prove that there was a Japanese writing system before those nasty foreign
: Chinese characters arrived on the scene.
"Kamigana" is new to me, although that could be because I have totally
forgotten something.
Was it created because the Jindaimoji of the Edo period had been shown
incapable of representing pre-kanji Japanese, and therefore phoney?
Bart
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Is this really Maltese? (I have to shamefacedly confess I don't know what
> Maltese is or where spoken.)
>
Maltese is (surprise) spoken on Malta. It seems to be a dialect of Arabic,
although the transliteration seems idiosyncratic.
>
> I'm intrigued by the similarity of the word for "write/written/wrote" to
> Turkish and ultimately Arabic words for the same notion. Coincidence?
Tony
Prince Richard Kaminski
"Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> Gerald B Mathias wrote:
>
> >
> > Is this really Maltese? (I have to shamefacedly confess I don't know what
> > Maltese is or where spoken.)
> >
>
> Maltese is (surprise) spoken on Malta. It seems to be a dialect of Arabic,
> although the transliteration seems idiosyncratic.
Although Maltese is indeed closely related to Arabic, it isn't actually written
in the Arabic script, but rather in the Maltese equivalent of "romaji". (or
perhaps romanji, or Maltanji). Fabian will be able to tell you much more, but
anyway, that's the extent of my knowledge of the matter.
Fabian
Gerald B Mathias hu kiteb
> Is this really Maltese? (I have to shamefacedly confess I don't know what
> Maltese is or where spoken.)
It is spoken In Malta and expatriate Maltese, totally about a million
speakers worldwide. Either that, or I made it up :) Malta is a barren rock
in the middle of the mediterranean sea.
> I'm intrigued by the similarity of the word for "write/written/wrote" to
> Turkish and ultimately Arabic words for the same notion. Coincidence?
Yep, it is Maltese, and no, it isn't coincidence. Maltese is part of the
semitic family of languages, and is the only one written in the Latin
script. Turkish has significant borrowings from Arabic, but it is part of
the Turkic language family.
kiteb - he wrote [v]
ktieb - a book [n]
kotba - books [n]
kitba - a written thing [n]
jikteb - he writes [v]
miktub - written [adj, pp]
kittieb - writer [n]
mikteb - writing desk [n]
inkiteb - it was written [v]
I'm sure there are a few others in this paradigm.
イル．キッテーップ．キテップ．クテーップ。
il-Kittieb kiteb ktieb.
著者が本を書きました。
The writer wrote a book.
Its all very well, but it can get repetitive. Are there sentences in
Japanese with similar repetitions?
---
Fabian
Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
Jim Breen
>>Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>: AFAIK kamigana was a total fabrication, cooked up in the early 1920s
>>: to prove that there was a Japanese writing system before those nasty foreign
>>: Chinese characters arrived on the scene.
>>"Kamigana" is new to me, although that could be because I have totally
>>forgotten something.
>>Was it created because the Jindaimoji of the Edo period had been shown
>>incapable of representing pre-kanji Japanese, and therefore phoney?
Well I suspect it was 神代文字 reborn.
Charles Eicher
<mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote:
> Is this really Maltese? (I have to shamefacedly confess I don't know what
> Maltese is or where spoken.)
Its a constructed language, based on how falcons' vocal tracts would
enunciate yamatokotoba.
------------------
Charles Eicher
-=-
cei...@inav.net
------------------
Fabian
Charles Eicher il-mitluf hu kiteb
> Gerald B Mathias hu kiteb
>
> > Is this really Maltese? (I have to shamefacedly confess I don't know
what
> > Maltese is or where spoken.)
>
> Its a constructed language, based on how falcons' vocal tracts would
> enunciate yamatokotoba.
Bah. I bet you don't even know the significance of falcons in Maltese
history.
btw Richard, apprently, the present alphabet was devised sometime during the
period of teh knights (1565-1798). Before that, Maltese was written with the
Arabic script.
Don Kirkman
<ceicher-ya0240800...@enews.newsguy.com>:
>In article <7uqius$qcc$2...@news.hawaii.edu>, Gerald B Mathias
><mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>> Is this really Maltese? (I have to shamefacedly confess I don't know what
>> Maltese is or where spoken.)
>Its a constructed language, based on how falcons' vocal tracts would
>enunciate yamatokotoba.
Is it written in takagana or torigana?
--
Old age brings pleasant memories, sometimes of things that really happened.
Don
Ross Klatte
>Date: Sat, 23 October 1999 09:16 AM EDT
>Bah. I bet you don't even know the significance of falcons in Maltese
>history.
>
I know that it involves Sidney Greenstreet.