Date identification

[Marco]

Hi,

a postal stationary collector friend has this card:

http://www.under49.com/marco/Japan/card_front.jpg

Can anyone help me with the date in the postmark? (it should be before
1900).

Regards,

Marco.

[muchan]

It's much older... In this post card, you see 播磨国姫路, but
Since 1871, 播磨国 became a lot of 県、
(姫路県、明石県、小野県、三草県、龍野県、林田県、赤穂県、安志県、山崎県、三日月県
according to wikipedia
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BB%83%E8%97%A9%E7%BD%AE%E7%9C%8C
)
So, basically, it is before 29 August 1871. (but people may write the
old address after
the official address had been changed.)

But, the moderm postal system in Japan started also 1871.
(Since 1 March 1871, according to wikipedia
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A7%85%E9%80%93%E5%B1%80
)
And inside the post card, you see the date 11 July, (but the date is
not finished properly,
it can be other than 11. )

All together, the best guess is it's sent 11.July 1871.

muchan

[muchan]

> It's much older... In this post card, you see 播磨国姫路, but
> Since 1871, 播磨国 became a lot of 県、
> (姫路県、明石県、小野県、三草県、龍野県、林田県、赤穂県、安志県、山崎県、三日月県
> according to wikipedia
> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BB%83%E8%97%A9%E7%BD%AE%E7%9C%8C
> )
> So, basically, it is before 29 August 1871. (but people may write the
> old address after
> the official address had been changed.)
>
> But, the moderm postal system in Japan started also 1871.

> (Since 1 March 1871, according to wikipediahttp://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A7%85%E9%80%93%E5%B1%80

> )
> And inside the post card, you see the date 11 July, (but the date is
> not finished properly,
> it can be other than 11. )
>
> All together, the best guess is it's sent 11.July 1871.
>
> muchan

Oops, the 29 August 1871 was 14 July of old calendar used in those
days in Japan,
so the written 11 July is three days before, i.e. 26 August 1971 in
Julian calendar.

so errata. it was sent 26.August 1971.

muchan

[Ben Bullock]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:53:21 -0800, muchan wrote:

> But, the moderm postal system in Japan started also 1871. (Since 1 March
> 1871, according to wikipedia
> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A7%85%E9%80%93%E5%B1%80 )

The cost of the postcard is 5 rin, which was the initial cost of a
postcard at the start of the Japanese postcard system according to this
page:

http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~yume/hagaki1.html

It says that the postal card system started in Meiji 6, which is 1873, so
the 1871 date cannot be (unless the above is wrong). Wikipedia also
agrees with this:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/1873%E5%B9%B4
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%83%B5%E4%BE%BF%E8%91%89%E6%9B%B8

If you can find the date when the price went up to 1 sen then it is
possible to give definite final possible year for the postcard.

> And inside the post card, you see the date 11 July, (but the date is not
> finished properly,
> it can be other than 11. )
>
> All together, the best guess is it's sent 11.July 1871.

--
sci.lang.japan FAQ/language tools: http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/

[Andreas Rusterholz]

On 1月13日, 午前4:53, muchan <mucha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 10, 11:26 am, Marco <profumi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > a postal stationary collector friend has this card:
>
> >http://www.under49.com/marco/Japan/card_front.jpg
>
> > Can anyone help me with the date in the postmark? (it should be before
> > 1900).
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Marco.
>
> It's much older... In this post card, you see 播磨国姫路, but
> Since 1871, 播磨国 became a lot of 県、
> (姫路県、明石県、小野県、三草県、龍野県、林田県、赤穂県、安志県、山崎県、三日月県
> according to wikipedia
> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BB%83%E8%97%A9%E7%BD%AE%E7%9C%8C
> )
> So, basically, it is before 29 August 1871. (but people may write the
> old address after
> the official address had been changed.)
>
> But, the moderm postal system in Japan started also 1871.

> (Since 1 March 1871, according to wikipediahttp://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A7%85%E9%80%93%E5%B1%80

> )
> And inside the post card, you see the date 11 July, (but the date is
> not finished properly,
> it can be other than 11. )
>
> All together, the best guess is it's sent 11.July 1871.
>
> muchan

ただし、通常葉書が初めて発行されたのは1873年（明治6年）でした。
（http://www.japanpost.jp/corporate/history/pdf/jp_history.pdf　を参照）

The price at that time was 5 Rin (市内) and 1 Sen (市外).
In 1883 (明治6年1月1日)　the price became 1 Sen for both and from 1899 (明治32年
4月1日) on it was 1 Sen 5 Rin.
According to that I must have been sent after 1873 and before 1883.
But I doubt that the distance between 但馬・朝来・新井 can be considered a 市内.

In the right corner on the bottom we can see only half of the postmark
from (新井).
I think (that's just a guess) that there was another stamp which is
now missing. And we can't tell whether it was a postage stamp for 5
Rin or 1 Sen.
Whitout further evidence can only say that it must have been sent
between 1873 and 1st April 1899.

Andreas Rusterholz

[Ben Bullock]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:04:59 -0800, Andreas Rusterholz wrote:


> ただし、通常葉書が初めて発行されたのは1873年（明治6年）でした。
> （http://www.japanpost.jp/corporate/history/pdf/jp_history.pdf　を参照）
>
> The price at that time was 5 Rin (市内) and 1 Sen (市外).

I don't know if there are different versions of the above document
quoted, but there is no mention in that document of the word "hagaki"
before 1873. For 1873 it states

郵便葉書紙並びに封嚢発行規則制定。

Then for 1876 it states

通常葉書初めて発行<紅枠二つ折>：半銭と 1 銭の2 種、郵便封嚢6 種を 発行。

So this dates the postcard from 1876 onwards.

> In 1883 (明治6年1月1日)　the price became 1 Sen for both

Again there is no mention of anything about "hagaki" in the current
version of the document you referred to under the year 1883.

> and from 1899 (明> 治32年

> 4月1日) on it was 1 Sen 5 Rin.

I cannot find this in the document you referred to. Did I make a mistake?

[Andreas Rusterholz]

On 1月13日, 午後3:49, Ben Bullock <benkasminbull...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:04:59 -0800, Andreas Rusterholz wrote:
> > ただし、通常葉書が初めて発行されたのは1873年（明治6年）でした。
> > （http://www.japanpost.jp/corporate/history/pdf/jp_history.pdfを参照）
>
> > The price at that time was 5 Rin (市内) and 1 Sen (市外).
>
> I don't know if there are different versions of the above document
> quoted, but there is no mention in that document of the word "hagaki"
> before 1873. For 1873 it states
>
> 郵便葉書紙並びに封嚢発行規則制定。
>
> Then for 1876 it states

You meant to say 1873.

>
> 通常葉書初めて発行<紅枠二つ折>：半銭と 1 銭の2 種、郵便封嚢6 種を 発行。
>
> So this dates the postcard from 1876 onwards.
>

The passage which dates the postcard from 1876 onwards is

1876年（明治９）　郵便葉書半銭を5厘に改正。

> > In 1883 (明治6年1月1日)　the price became 1 Sen for both
>
> Again there is no mention of anything about "hagaki" in the current
> version of the document you referred to under the year 1883.
>
> > and from 1899 (明> 治32年
> > 4月1日) on it was 1 Sen 5 Rin.
>
> I cannot find this in the document you referred to. Did I make a mistake?

This is from the 日本語国語大辞典　（第二版）、小学館。

But you can find the same information here:
http://www.junji.biz/2007/04/post_21.html

[Marco]

Hi,

thank you all for the answers, I can't read Japanese and it is very
difficult to follow all your thoughts.

For sure I can agree there's a missing stamp in the bottom right
corner.

Can you help me translating the Japanese for the places where this has
been sent and received?

Do you all agree on the day of the months but need more information
for the definitive answer on the year?

Thanks a lot,

Marco.

[Ben Bullock]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:11:24 -0800, Andreas Rusterholz wrote:


>> I don't know if there are different versions of the above document
>> quoted, but there is no mention in that document of the word "hagaki"
>> before 1873. For 1873 it states
>>
>> 郵便葉書紙並びに封嚢発行規則制定。
>>
>> Then for 1876 it states
>
> You meant to say 1873.

No I meant "for 1876 it states 郵便葉書半銭を5厘に改正。"

> This is from the 日本語国語大辞典　（第二版）、小学館。

I'm not sure why you referred to that document then.

> But you can find the same information here:
> http://www.junji.biz/2007/04/post_21.html

It's not all there, especially the "go rin" bit is not there.

[Ben Bullock]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:16:18 -0800, Marco wrote:

> Hi,
>
> thank you all for the answers, I can't read Japanese and it is very
> difficult to follow all your thoughts.
>
> For sure I can agree there's a missing stamp in the bottom right corner.
>
> Can you help me translating the Japanese for the places where this has
> been sent and received?

Someone has done part of that, perhaps you could summarize what you have
learnt so far.

> Do you all agree on the day of the months but need more information for
> the definitive answer on the year?

Even the person who gave the day of the month was not completely sure
about it.

[Andreas Rusterholz]

This card was sent from Tajima-Asago-Arai to Harima no Kuni Himeji on
the 11th day of the 7th month.
The year has to be between 1876 and (if the missing stamp was a 5 Rin
stamp) 1899.
But without more information there is no definitive answer on the
year.

Andreas Rusterholz

[Marco]

Hi,

thanks you Andreas.

> This card was sent from Tajima-Asago-Arai to Harima no Kuni Himeji on
> the 11th day of the 7th month.
> The year has to be between 1876 and (if the missing stamp was a 5 Rin
> stamp) 1899.
> But without more information there is no definitive answer on the
> year.

So there are no indication for the year in the postmark in the up left
corner?

Ciao,

Marco.

[Andreas Rusterholz]

Yes, that's right. Just the month and the day.

Andreas Rusterholz