The meanings of 外人?
Dick Moores
http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3208
he/she says,
"I believe 外人 means simply a Caucasian 外国人. Or
alternatively, a non-Asian 外国人."
What say you all?
Dick Moores
Brian Baker
often used to refer to foreigners with more of a mind toward non-Asians,
but to say that it's never used to refer to Asian foreigners is flat-out
wrong.
-Brian Baker
Ben Bullock
news:e1h8te$f5b$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
> Dick Moores wrote:
>> Exactly what is a 外人? I agree with nihongozuki in this thread:
>> http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3208
>>
>> he/she says,
>> "I believe 外人 means simply a Caucasian 外国人. Or
>> alternatively, a non-Asian 外国人."
> It certainly doesn't only mean a non-Asian foreigner. I agree it's often
> used to refer to foreigners with more of a mind toward non-Asians, but to
> say that it's never used to refer to Asian foreigners is flat-out wrong.
This discussion has come up here before, and I believe it is correct to say
that the consensus of native speakers was that "gaijin" is mostly applied to
European / caucasian / white people. Japanese Wikipedia also makes a similar
claim.
My best information on the topic is represented in the following FAQ entry:
http://www.sljfaq.org/w/Gaijin
Any suggestions for further improvements or corrections are very welcome.
Incidentally this was one of the fights I was involved in at Wikipedia,
where "Exploding Boy" insisted that "gaijin" applied equally to Asian
foreigners, which I believe is incorrect.
Please also view
http://www.sljfaq.org/w/Usenet#Top_posting
--
sci.lang.japan FAQ: http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/afaq.html
Chris Kern
<benkasmi...@gmail.com> posted the following:
>"Brian Baker" <bake...@osu.edu> wrote in message
>news:e1h8te$f5b$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
>> Dick Moores wrote:
>>> Exactly what is a 外人? I agree with nihongozuki in this thread:
>>> http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3208
>>>
>>> he/she says,
>>> "I believe 外人 means simply a Caucasian 外国人. Or
>>> alternatively, a non-Asian 外国人."
>
>
>> It certainly doesn't only mean a non-Asian foreigner. I agree it's often
>> used to refer to foreigners with more of a mind toward non-Asians, but to
>> say that it's never used to refer to Asian foreigners is flat-out wrong.
>
>This discussion has come up here before, and I believe it is correct to say
>that the consensus of native speakers was that "gaijin" is mostly applied to
>European / caucasian / white people.
I would agree with "mostly". It really depends on the context;
honestly the word "gaijin"/"gaikokujin" has a number of meanings
depending on the exact way it's getting used. It can mean "American",
"native English speaker", "person who cannot speak Japanese",
"foreigner", "white person", etc.
-Chris
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Ben Monroe
> "Brian Baker" <bake...@osu.edu> wrote in message
> news:e1h8te$f5b$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
> > Dick Moores wrote:
> >> Exactly what is a 外人? I agree with nihongozuki in this thread:
> >> http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3208
> >>
> >> he/she says,
> >> "I believe 外人 means simply a Caucasian 外国人. Or
> >> alternatively, a non-Asian 外国人."
>
>
> > It certainly doesn't only mean a non-Asian foreigner. I agree it's often
> > used to refer to foreigners with more of a mind toward non-Asians, but to
> > say that it's never used to refer to Asian foreigners is flat-out wrong.
>
> This discussion has come up here before, and I believe it is correct to say
> that the consensus of native speakers was that "gaijin" is mostly applied to
> European / caucasian / white people. Japanese Wikipedia also makes a similar
> claim.
>
> My best information on the topic is represented in the following FAQ entry:
>
> http://www.sljfaq.org/w/Gaijin
>
> Any suggestions for further improvements or corrections are very welcome.
To quote the FAQ:
Gaijin (外人) is a Japanese term which is a contraction of
gaikokujin (外国人) or "foreigner".
This may be the general interpretation now a days, but historical
usages indicates that it is not mearly a contraction.
広辞苑 lists two early meanings, both with quotes.
①仲間以外の人。疎遠な人。連理秘抄「ーなど上手多からむ座にては」
(Dated around 1349)
②敵視すべき人。平家物語（１）「ーもなき所に兵具をととのへ」
(Dated between 1219-1243)
大辞林 also includes the same 平家物語 quote.
②内輪でない人。他人。外部の人。
「--もなき所に兵具をととのへ/平家 1」
The term was used to refer to other Japanese from the same Japan. It
does not necessarily include the concept of 国. Suggesting that it is
a contraction ignores its etymology.
Just a suggestion.
Ben Monroe
Shibuya, Tokyo
Ben Bullock
news:1144831395....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Ben Bullock のメッセージ:
>
>> My best information on the topic is represented in the following FAQ
>> entry:
>>
>> http://www.sljfaq.org/w/Gaijin
>>
>> Any suggestions for further improvements or corrections are very welcome.
>
> To quote the FAQ:
> Gaijin (外人) is a Japanese term which is a contraction of
> gaikokujin (外国人) or "foreigner".
>
> This may be the general interpretation now a days, but historical
> usages indicates that it is not mearly a contraction.
>
> 広辞苑 lists two early meanings, both with quotes.
>
> ①仲間以外の人。疎遠な人。連理秘抄「ーなど上手多からむ座にては」
> (Dated around 1349)
>
> ②敵視すべき人。平家物語（１）「ーもなき所に兵具をととのへ」
> (Dated between 1219-1243)
>
> 大辞林 also includes the same 平家物語 quote.
>
> ②内輪でない人。他人。外部の人。
> 「--もなき所に兵具をととのへ/平家 1」
>
> The term was used to refer to other Japanese from the same Japan. It
> does not necessarily include the concept of 国. Suggesting that it is
> a contraction ignores its etymology.
Thank you for the suggestion. Are we sure that the current-day "gaijin" is
derived from these words and not from "gaikokujin"?
Achrén Jani
> The term was used to refer to other Japanese from the same Japan. It
> does not necessarily include the concept of 国. Suggesting that it is
During the periods from where those terms originate Japan was heavily
divided, right? It was composed of several very small 国 with permits
equal to modern passports, strict border partols and customs houses, so
I don't think it's far fecthed to say people those days though the guy
from the next valley was a 外国人.
--
- 矢仁, acjama at utu dot fi, and this was UTF-8.
Achrén Jani
> equal to modern passports,
Yeah, I did mean to say "modern Visa", actually.
muchan
Maybe they called the guy from the next valley as よそもの、他国人、etc...
maybe "他藩の侍" for some of them...
And that time those came from countries other than Japan were 異人、
and especially from European countries (in 16C) 南蛮人... ,etc.
I think 外人、外国人 started in use since Meiji era.
muchan