Re: Maldives Goes Carbon Neutral
z0n0b
"Fran" <Fran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c139c7b5-21a1-42fc...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
Mr Blair said: �Just as investing in electrification, railways and the
internet led to economic growth in the past, investing in clean energy
can help reignite the global economy now.�
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6643750.ece
======================================
ROTFLMAO
If that's the case komrade, why do you want to deny China and India these
"benefits"????
Or don;t you believe your own propaganda?
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Fran
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c139c7b5-21a1-42fc...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> Mr Blair said: “Just as investing in electrification, railways and the
> internet led to economic growth in the past, investing in clean energy
> can help reignite the global economy now.”http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6643750.ece
> ======================================
>
> ROTFLMAO
> If that's the case komrade, why do you want to deny China and India these
> "benefits"????
I don't.
Next question?
Fran
z0n0b
>
> news:c139c7b5-21a1-42fc...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> Mr Blair said: �Just as investing in electrification, railways and the
> internet led to economic growth in the past, investing in clean energy
> can help reignite the global economy now.�http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6643750.ece
> ======================================
>
> ROTFLMAO
> If that's the case komrade, why do you want to deny China and India these
> "benefits"????
I don't.
======================================
Oh yes you do!
Guess who wants to allow China and India unrestricted emissions, thus
denying them the chance for "investing in clean energy"?
Just look into the mirror komrade!
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Fran
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2b951618-51cc-4cf4...@s1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 6, 3:16 pm, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
>
> > "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:c139c7b5-21a1-42fc...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> > Mr Blair said: Just as investing in electrification, railways and the
> > internet led to economic growth in the past, investing in clean energy
> > ======================================
>
> > ROTFLMAO
> > If that's the case komrade, why do you want to deny China and India these
> > "benefits"????
>
> I don't.
> ======================================
>
> Oh yes you do!
> Guess who wants to allow China and India unrestricted emissions, thus
> denying them the chance for "investing in clean energy"?
Put to one side that this claim is completely wrong. I don't want to
"China and India unrestricted emissions". On the contrary, were it
within my power to impose mandates on them, I'd be in favour of them
bearing a substantial and escalating and proportionate burden of
compliance that would, over the next 50 years or so catch up with the
west.
But you lying and misprepresenting others is a given -- demanded by
your boilerplate.
In the Bonzo lexicon, "allowing" = "denying".
So to your basic problems with logic, and honesty, we see that you
also don't understand the semantic scope of simple English words.
Then again it may simply be another instantiation of your trolling
practice.
Fran
z0n0b
<leona...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2bf8f336-6da5-4630...@g19g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 6, 4:43 am, Peter Muehlbauer <spamtrap...@AT.frankenexpress.de>
wrote:
> chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 6, 6:35 am, Fran <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 6, 3:28 pm, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:2b951618-51cc-4cf4...@s1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jul 6, 3:16 pm, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:c139c7b5-21a1-42fc...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > Mr Blair said: Just as investing in electrification, railways and
> > > > > the
> > > > > internet led to economic growth in the past, investing in clean
> > > > > energy
> > > > > can help reignite the global economy
> > > > > ======================================
>
> > > > > ROTFLMAO
> > > > > If that's the case komrade, why do you want to deny China and
> > > > > India these
> > > > > "benefits"????
>
> > > > I don't.
> > > > ======================================
>
> > > > Oh yes you do!
> > > > Guess who wants to allow China and India unrestricted emissions,
> > > > thus
> > > > denying them the chance for "investing in clean energy"?
>
> > > "China and India unrestricted emissions". On the contrary, were it
> > > within my power to impose mandates on them, I'd be in favour of them
> > > bearing a substantial and escalating and proportionate burden of
> > > compliance that would, over the next 50 years or so catch up with the
> > > west.
>
> > > But you lying and misprepresenting others is a given -- demanded by
> > > your boilerplate.
>
> > > In the Bonzo lexicon, "allowing" = "denying".
>
> > > So to your basic problems with logic, and honesty, we see that you
> > > also don't understand the semantic scope of simple English words.
>
> > > Then again it may simply be another instantiation of your trolling
> > > practice.
>
> > > Fran
>
> > inflict on themselves they will not reduce the CO2 in the
> > atmosphere.
> > Only further falls in the the Global temperature will
> > do that.
> > The evidence for that is clear but is ignored by self
> > aggrandising scientists and politicians.
>
> Here we see the absolute stupidity of green AGW idiots like Fran.
>
> a)
> "As scientists estimate that sea levels will rise globally by between 20cm
> and
> 60cm by 2100, many islands face complete inundation and even the more
> elevated
> ones will experience increased flooding."
>
> b)
> "President Nasheed announced in March that his country would spend $110
> million (�67 million) a year to become the first in the world with a
> zero-carbon economy by 2019."
>
> Fran, if the Maledives inundate somedays, and this is what AGW retards
> absolutely insist, why then spending $110 million a year?
> Do you think, the sea around the Maledives is so impressed of this, that
> it
> will not spill over with respect to this sacrifice?
>
> Otherhand, spending such a lot of money is so overwhelming suggestive,
> that
> this AGW sealevel rise crap might eventually be false after all?
accepted 7 May 2003 Abstract:
Novel prospects for the Maldives do not include a
condemnation to future flooding. The people of the
Maldives have, in the past, survived a higher sea
level of about 50�60 cm.
The present trend lack signs of a sea level rise. On
the contrary, there is firm morphological evidence
of a significant sea level fall in the last 30 years.
This sea level fall is likely to be the effect of
increased evaporation and an intensification of the
NE-monsoon over the central Indian Ocean.
D 2003 Elsevier B.V.
>
> Can you AGW idiots finally agree upon which side the coin will fall?
>
> Your posting is the biggest effort by far for totally lose your
> credibility.
> Once and for all.
Seas Stop Warming And Rising
July 7 2009
Distinguished climatologist Roger Pielke Sr examines three recent papers and
says they confirm that the alarmists are wrong:
All of these analyses are consistent with no significant heating in the
upper ocean and a flattening of sea level rise, and even more clearly, that
these climate metrics are not �progressing faster than was expected a few
years ago�.
Incidentally, this means Climate Change Minister Penny Wong will need to try
again to explain why the planet isn�t warming as we�d expect if man�s
emissions are to blame.
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
z0n0b
On Jul 6, 7:14 pm, Peter Muehlbauer <spamtrap...@AT.frankenexpress.de>
wrote:
> http://www.vol.at/news/TP:vol:News-Welt/artikel/malediven-sparen-aus-...
>
> What a fucktard and turncoat!
>
No ... he's wisely planning for the future.
======================================
You mean this future??
Seas Stop Warming And Rising
July 7 2009
Distinguished climatologist Roger Pielke Sr examines three recent papers and
says they confirm that the alarmists are wrong:
All of these analyses are consistent with no significant heating in the
upper ocean and a flattening of sea level rise, and even more clearly, that
these climate metrics are not "progressing faster than was expected a few
years ago".
Incidentally, this means Climate Change Minister Penny Wong will need to try
again to explain why the planet isn't warming as we'd expect if man's
emissions are to blame.
How so?
OR THIS FUTURE?
Maldives Rising, Not Drowning
May 19 2009
QUOTE: in the last 50 years, some data from satellite pictures and tide
measurements suggest sea levels in the Maldives have dropped by as much as
12 inches (30 centimeters).
New research confirms that 60 Scary Minutes missed the real story with the
Maldives in trying to beat the warming drum.
Much of the land is actually rising, not sinking:
But some recent data challenge the widespread belief that the islands are
destined to disappear.
Paul Kench of the University of Auckland in New Zealand. suggests the
islands might move onto their reefs and build vertically, offsetting the
potential threat of sea level rises. His research _ published together with
other scientists from Australia, New Zealand and the Maldives _ shows some
islands have rebuilt themselves as much as 1.6 feet (49 centimeters) higher.
"It's quite convincing work and seems to be quite widely accepted by the
scientific community," said Andrew Cooper, a professor of coastal studies at
the University of Ulster in Northern Ireland. "...I think the question of
the Maldives being completely wiped out may be overstated."
Following the devastating 2004 Asian tsunami, many scientists assumed the
Maldives would be damaged. But Kench and his colleagues not only found
little evidence of island erosion, but also that the tsunami had washed
sediment ashore, making some islands taller than they were before the
catastrophe....
Sea levels worldwide have been steadily rising, except in a handful of
places, including the Maldives. But in the last 50 years, some data from
satellite pictures and tide measurements suggest sea levels in the Maldives
have dropped by as much as 12 inches (30 centimeters).
"That was definitely unexpected," said Jonathan Overpeck, director of the
Institute for the Study of Planet Earth at the University of Arizona.
Overpeck, incidentally, is the expert that the ABC's Robyn "100 metres"
Williams blames for persuading him the seas will drown our cities.
He's obviously not very wise!!!
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
z0n0b
On Jul 7, 7:39 pm, Peter Muehlbauer <spamtrap...@AT.frankenexpress.de>
wrote:
> Fran <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote:
They save on oil (more as it inclreases in price as the
recession ends), get CDM funds and can attract low carbon tourists.
And they get these benefits regardless of whether they believe in AGW
======================================
Huh?
"low carbon tourists"?????????????????
I presume they'll be rowing themelves out to the Maldives then!
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
z0n0b
"jim" <".sjedgingN0sp"@m...@mwt.net> wrote in message
news:HMGdnUKiXPkq587X...@bright.net...
> What precisely is the economic damage/ Has anybody ever explained this?
> The
> opponents to global warming just toss the "economic damage" bogeyman out
> there
> as if it were a article of faith that doesn't require any facts to back it
> up.
Just look to California son!
California Fast Becoming A Basket Case Thanks To Idiotic Global Warming
Policies
November 12 2008
California is headed toward fiscal disaster, thanks to the worst performance
by any state, ever. So what does Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger do? Convene a
big meeting on global warming, of course.
The swaggering governator will host an international summit next week "to
discuss and develop strategies aimed at combating climate change."
Along with California's chief executive, five other governors plan to attend
the extravaganza - between, of course, pleading for bailouts from Washington
for their ailing state economies. Also invited are officials from Australia,
Brazil, Canada, China, the EU, India, Indonesia, Mexico, New Zealand,
Poland, Spain and Britain.
In case you don't remember, California in 2006 passed the most sweeping
greenhouse gas limits for any state in the union. Under this plan, CO2
output would be slashed by 25% by the year 2020. This is equivalent to
removing 6.5 million vehicles from the road.
Sounds great. Except that greenhouse gas output has yet to budge, and the
promised boom from "green jobs" promised by Schwarzenegger and his
Democratic friends are nowhere in sight. California's jobless rate is now
officially over 7%, nearly a point above the national average.
Instead, the greenhouse gas limits approved by Schwarzenegger will cost
California billions of dollars in lost output as businesses locate elsewhere
and take jobs with them.
The one-time Golden State is rapidly deteriorating from a cutting-edge,
high-tech economy to the fiscal equivalent of a Third World nation.
"The state global warming programs are costly to consumers and will not have
any impact on the environment," the nonpartisan American Legislative Council
concluded in a recent report.
In short, no bang for the buck. Just a lot of photo ops of Schwarzenegger
hobnobbing with other governors and a handful of foreign officials eager to
see the U.S. go down the same path to financial ruin as they have chosen.
Meanwhile, California's nonpartisan budget analyst on Tuesday predicted the
state will have a $27.8 billion deficit over the next 20 months. This is a
mind-boggling gap, equal to roughly 26% of the state's $103.3 billion in
annual general-fund spending. And if nothing's done, the deficit will
average $22 billion a year for the next five years.
This, not global warming, is California's true disaster in the making.
Schwarzenegger's response? Cut spending, yes, but also raise taxes. The time
to cut spending, however, was four years ago, not when disaster struck. A
narrow slice of rich Californians now pay virtually all the state's taxes,
so when a downturn occurs, the budget collapses.
Ironically, Schwarzenegger entered office four years ago after challenging
the sitting governor, Gray Davis, in a recall election over the state's
energy blackout and - you guess it - its huge budget deficit.
Since then, overall spending under Schwarzenegger has soared $41 billion, or
more than 40%. General-fund spending has jumped by $27 billion to $103.3
billion, a 35% increase. Growth under Davis was less than half that. Maybe
he's got an apology coming.
California's economy is struggling in large part because Schwarzenegger
hasn't lived up to his promise to tackle the out-of-control budget. Instead,
he's riding his global warming hobbyhorse. Who knows? Maybe he'll ride it
all the way to a post in President Obama's administration.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=311385255302770
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Fran
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Why would you presume that?
That would be silly. Oh wait! I answered my own question.
Fran
z0n0b
On Jul 8, 10:50 am, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Why would you presume that?
======================================
EVIL CO2!
"The devil's gas"
Remember?
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Fran
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f8d53d5a-93ac-4390...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 8, 10:50 am, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
>
> > "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:65d68b61-16b2-407a...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jul 7, 7:39 pm, Peter Muehlbauer <spamtrap...@AT.frankenexpress.de>
> > wrote:> Fran <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > They save on oil (more as it inclreases in price as the
> > recession ends), get CDM funds and can attract low carbon tourists.
> > And they get these benefits regardless of whether they believe in AGW
> > ======================================
>
> > Huh?
> > "low carbon tourists"?????????????????
> > I presume they'll be rowing themelves out to the Maldives then!
>
> Why would you presume that?
> ======================================
>
> EVIL CO2!
You must have proponents of mitigation confused with someone who
thinks CO2 is evil. I appreciate that you rightwingers find moving
beyond manichean categorisation intellectually challenging. Maybe it's
the curse you religionists suffer, but give it a try.
> "The devil's gas"
As I don't believe in the devil or his MO "evil" you can only be
raising this to vent your angst, or perhaps to project it onto others.
> Remember?
>
These are your fantasies rather than my memories.
Fran
z0n0b
On Jul 8, 1:33 pm, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f8d53d5a-93ac-4390...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 8, 10:50 am, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
>
> > "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:65d68b61-16b2-407a...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jul 7, 7:39 pm, Peter Muehlbauer <spamtrap...@AT.frankenexpress.de>
> > wrote:> Fran <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > They save on oil (more as it inclreases in price as the
> > recession ends), get CDM funds and can attract low carbon tourists.
> > And they get these benefits regardless of whether they believe in AGW
> > ======================================
>
> > Huh?
> > "low carbon tourists"?????????????????
> > I presume they'll be rowing themelves out to the Maldives then!
>
> Why would you presume that?
> ======================================
>
> EVIL CO2!
thinks CO2 is evil. I appreciate that you rightwingers find moving
beyond manichean categorisation intellectually challenging. Maybe it's
the curse you religionists suffer, but give it a try.
> "The devil's gas"
As I don't believe in the devil or his MO "evil" you can only be
raising this to vent your angst, or perhaps to project it onto others.
I was taking my cue from Greenpeace!
To quote ...
"Chlorine is the devil's element" Greenpeace
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Fran
No, actually you were taking your cue from the polluters' lobby
activist Patrick Moore who attributed the claim that "Chlorine is the
devil's element" to non-specific people. Here's the claim reduxed by
rightwing radio-host Michael Duffy:
|||
Moore, who has an honours degree in forest biology and a PhD in
ecology, says he left Greenpeace when "I was an international
director, one of five. My fellow international directors had no
science education. Most of them were political activists or
entrepreneur environmentalists, for want of a better word, and they
decided we should start a campaign to ban chlorine worldwide. I said,
'Chlorine is one of the elements in the periodic table. I don't think
that's in our jurisdiction.' And they said, 'No, this is a good
campaign. Chlorine is the devil's element, and it works really well
for fund-raising and media and everything.'
|||
There's no corroboration from Greenpeace that such a claim was ever
made by them, and yet, if Moore's account had been right -- "it works
really well for fund-raising and media and everything" one would
expect that Greenpeace would have emblazoned this on their T-shirts.
Moore is of course these days, simply a mouthpiece for the polluters
so one cannot believe anything he says.
It is telling that you pretend the claim is properly attested *and
hide the source* so you can persist in this lie. Nothing new there,
but if you have to hide the source, that is a clear admission of
mendacity on your part.
Noted also, you aren't a "skeptic" when outlandish and unattested
claims come from the polluters!
> To quote ...
>
> "Chlorine is the devil's element" Greenpeace
Actually:
"Chlorine is the devil's element" Bonzo, quoting Patrick Moore
verballing non-specific people implicitly connected with Greenpeace.
Bonzo, you are amongst usenet's most incompetent liars.
Fran
PS Note also that the initial claim related not to chlorine, but to
CO2, so Bonzo wanted to use a bogus claim about Greenpeace's attitude
to CHLORINE to parody their position on CO2.
You filth merchant spruikers have no scruples at all.
z0n0b
On Jul 8, 2:27 pm, Benj <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
> On Jul 7, 11:41 pm, Fran <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > EVIL CO2!
>
> > You must have proponents of mitigation confused with someone who
> > thinks CO2 is evil. I appreciate that you rightwingers find moving
> > beyond manichean categorisation intellectually challenging. Maybe it's
> > the curse you religionists suffer, but give it a try.
>
oooh ... one mistake already. I'm no liberal. Ask anyone who pays
attention.
> you can't say
> anything logically coherent using any of it. I would have used the
> word "animistic" rather than manichean.
I was asserting that the rightwingers were unable to move beyond
simple dualities -- in this case good and evil.
======================================
Huh?
What on earth does an atheist mean by "good" and "evil"??????????????
If they were to think their positions through properly, these two terms
would be totally meaningless.
After all an atheistic universe is NECESSARILY totally chaotic and amoral.
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Australia Mining Pioneer & Founder of the True Geology
*> "Despair is an enormous problem," says Flannery. "There is no sign
the
*> situation will ever improve."
*> more by Tim Flannery - Jul 6, 2009 - Macleans.ca (1 occurrences)
Dear Mr Kanga,
Thank you so much for your update on the dire situation, in which
Australia is finding itself as a result of its Collective Crimes.
So the regular Retards as usual can only reply by catcalls, or the
typical moronic comment on top of their Squeezy type voices : It's
reening oootside !
Oh ya !
... but the country side demonstrates that the Great Sandy Desert is
waiting to walk in & take control, as required
What I find strange as well, is the fact that the Sheeple do not seem
concerned by the situation, as evident from following aus.ng.(s)
Except you, Mr Kanga, none wants to ponder on the long term
consequences of the Collective Chastisements,,which you are indeed
clearly outlaying :
- Every two days an Australian Farmer is murdered in cold blood by
some financial vulture
- Over 20 000 Farmers' families have walked off the land since the DDD
( Divine Drudging Drought) started 10 years ago
- The water fed to 1.2 millions people in Adelaide & around is not fit
for sheep & cattle
- The REAL purpose of the planned weir on the Murray is to prevent sea
water flowing upstream, confirming then the obligation to open, this
very year indeed, the Coorong & Lower Lakes to the mighty South Seas.
The official story up to your latest precisions being that weir going
to store fresh water for Adelaide ... But the Murray Darling trickle
about to be converted into a Camel Race track, we know now that weir
to be used by the bookmakers & putters betting on the Camels.
I find it strange as well that the usual rags are very careful to
avoid raising such issue in the columns ...afraid I suppose to fend
off good people away from the Land of Bastards ( this not meant for
you, mate) , and stop the trickle of unaware strangers coming from
France & elsewhere visiting that Austral Hell on Earth ? I bet it
is !
On the practical side, I had a research on Tipperary station and found
the following on the
Selwyn Johnston Qld MP
http://www.johnston-independent.com/welcome_c.html#ts
He said
QUOTE
The STRATEGICALLY placed Tipperary Station, the nearest Northern
Territory land facing Jakarta, possessing a huge, internationally
rated all-weather airstrip, sea and river frontage, was utilised by
the Japanese in WW2 who established a forward camp on the banks of the
Daly River.
While Australia's Foreign Aid provides the equivalent of $100 for
every Australian man, woman and child into supporting Suharto's
Indonesian regime - $1.7 billion - the Indonesian elite is buying or
has bought large tracts of land in the Northern Territory.
The Australian government MUST as a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY,
implement immediate procedures to restrict foreign ownership of
Australia's land mass and convert current ownership to 10 - 15 year
pastoral leases, with their complying to the same regulations as
Australian farmers and graziers.
UNQUOTE
This is confirming here you usual assertion that Australia is run by
Traitors, to both their country & their people... Political Crawlers &
Puppets whose strings are pulled from behind the stage !
The West Australia Whorehouse is run in fact by Mining & Financial
Criminals of the Newmont / Newcrest / Boral / BHP class,who would
not hesitate to murder MP ( as the Hon T.D Evans Member Kalgoorlie) or
Corporate Prospector ( as Father Bert Rutherford formerly with Narla,
wholly owned subsidiary of Boral & used as smoke screen in the
abominable Telfer Mine Swindle) ... or kick out one of Australia
leading Mining Pioneer to remove any opposition to their fabricated
Australia Mining History and leave room for their incensed Mining
frauds like Tyrwhitt, Thomson, Barr, Atkinson ( those pretentious
filth able to find mineral deposits by peering over the cockpit &
landing in the Desert to take samples)
The Federal Parliament being run the same way in light of the Port
Arthur Mass Murder orchestrated by Australia very Government of Howard
( to pass through his Gun Control Law) and the murder in cold blood
of Australia finest Prime Minister of all times the Right Hon. Harold
Holt ( may be Howard was party into that too, providing the spear)
All things considered then, and in accordance with you consideration
that no redemption should be granted freely to such congregation of
hard nailed & stiff necked sinners, I solemnly confirm to you here,
that the Collective Chastisements are extended sine die, OR until the
Convict Rabble repent as a single man and beg for pardon &
forgiveness. Then I will set my recommendation for a return to
normality, and amongst those in all priority :
Royal Inquiry into Howards Govt 's Port Arthur Mass Murders, with
Howard to be hanged high & short for high treason against Australia.
Promised Royal Inquiry into the Telfer Mine Mass Swindle, with
Tyrwhitt, Searls Barr & Atkinson to be flogged with the Cat' O nine
tails, and then sent to Roy Hill St to work the shearer season & get
those fucking bludger getting a good sweat for the first time in
their lives
...by the way, Tim Flannery is quite correct, despair is an enormous
problem in the LOB, and it has further the favour of Mining &
Political Criminals
Pour le Royal Khranfauss de l'Oued Rir et des Saharas
et par son geste
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Founder of the True Geology
~ Ignorance is the Cosmic Sin, the One Never Forgiven ~
Published by AMERICAN CHRONICLE
"True Geology" Foundation Document
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/69327
"Turcaud Bath" as a free gift to Suffering Humanity
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/107
Fran
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:189b22db-d56d-4665...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 8, 2:27 pm, Benj <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 7, 11:41 pm, Fran <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > EVIL CO2!
>
> > > You must have proponents of mitigation confused with someone who
> > > thinks CO2 is evil. I appreciate that you rightwingers find moving
> > > beyond manichean categorisation intellectually challenging. Maybe it's
> > > the curse you religionists suffer, but give it a try.
>
> > Nice vocabulary, Fran. It is too bad like most liberals
>
> oooh ... one mistake already. I'm no liberal. Ask anyone who pays
> attention.
>
> > you can't say
> > anything logically coherent using any of it. I would have used the
> > word "animistic" rather than manichean.
>
> I was asserting that the rightwingers were unable to move beyond
> simple dualities -- in this case good and evil.
> ======================================
>
> Huh?
> What on earth does an atheist mean by "good" and "evil"??????????????
Nothing at all. These terms are, IMO, the proeprty of religionists.
Can't you read for meaning?
> If they were to think their positions through properly, these two terms
> would be totally meaningless.
Been there done that a very long time ago.
> After all an atheistic universe is NECESSARILY totally chaotic and amoral.
We atheists have no general view about whether the universe is chaotic
and amoral. Atheism is simply the view that that gods and spirits
don't exist (or a disbelief in their existence). It doesn't prescribe
what else we think about life, the universe or anything else. Atheists
express a range of views.
Fran
jim
z0n0b wrote:
>
> "jim" <".sjedgingN0sp"@m...@mwt.net> wrote in message
> news:HMGdnUKiXPkq587X...@bright.net...
> > What precisely is the economic damage/ Has anybody ever explained this?
> > The
> > opponents to global warming just toss the "economic damage" bogeyman out
> > there
> > as if it were a article of faith that doesn't require any facts to back it
> > up.
>
> Just look to California son!
>
> California Fast Becoming A Basket Case Thanks To Idiotic Global Warming
> Policies
Apparently no one has informed you that California is not alone - there
was a worldwide economic meltdown that occurred in the past year. But
lets look at California since you dragged it in. Californians produce
more carbon dioxide per capita then 99.9% of the people on this planet.
If anything, California would be the poster child for the bad things
that happen to people who are dedicated to producing too much carbon
dioxide. Leave Global Warming out of it and let's just look at the bare
facts:
An economy that is addicted to consuming large quantities of oil is
unhealthy.
Consuming large quantities of oil is a behavioral disorder.
The behavioral disorder is known as "bingeing".
Bingeing is defined as consuming large quantities of a substance in a
short period of time. Man has known for 1000's of years that bingeing is
destructive. One would think that it is obvious that Society has a
vested interest in curtailing destructive behavior.
>
> November 12 2008
>
> California is headed toward fiscal disaster, thanks to the worst performance
> by any state, ever. So what does Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger do? Convene a
> big meeting on global warming, of course.
>
> The swaggering governator will host an international summit next week "to
> discuss and develop strategies aimed at combating climate change."
>
> Along with California's chief executive, five other governors plan to attend
> the extravaganza - between, of course, pleading for bailouts from Washington
> for their ailing state economies. Also invited are officials from Australia,
> Brazil, Canada, China, the EU, India, Indonesia, Mexico, New Zealand,
> Poland, Spain and Britain.
>
> In case you don't remember, California in 2006 passed the most sweeping
> greenhouse gas limits for any state in the union. Under this plan, CO2
> output would be slashed by 25% by the year 2020. This is equivalent to
> removing 6.5 million vehicles from the road.
Are you expecting that I am going to be horrified by the thought of 6.5
million Californians might be finding something else to do with their
life besides spending it being stuck in freeway traffic?
It looks like with the economic meltdown California will achieve their
25% reduction in their use of fossil fuel by the end of this year. No
need to wait till 2020.
>
> Sounds great. Except that greenhouse gas output has yet to budge, and the
> promised boom from "green jobs" promised by Schwarzenegger and his
> Democratic friends are nowhere in sight. California's jobless rate is now
> officially over 7%, nearly a point above the national average.
Actually it is much worse than that. 12%-15% unemployment are the most
recent estimates I have seen and it is still growing.
>
> Instead, the greenhouse gas limits approved by Schwarzenegger will cost
> California billions of dollars in lost output as businesses locate elsewhere
> and take jobs with them.
>
> The one-time Golden State is rapidly deteriorating from a cutting-edge,
> high-tech economy to the fiscal equivalent of a Third World nation.
All of that may happen but it is delusional thought process that leads
one to believe the root cause of the meltdown was their embrace of
Global warming mitigation. Businesses in California are not packing up
and going elsewhere - they are just packing up and closing down period.
>
> "The state global warming programs are costly to consumers and will not have
> any impact on the environment," the nonpartisan American Legislative Council
> concluded in a recent report.
I can agree with that. There is no doubt that developing ways of
functioning effectively without engaging in bingeing will be costly.
The problem is, Do you think an economy based on oil bingeing is a
complete free lunch? Do you think that has no cost? The truth is that
riding the roller coaster of an economy based on oil bingeing is far
more costly than the cost of curtailing that bingeing.
>
> In short, no bang for the buck. Just a lot of photo ops of Schwarzenegger
> hobnobbing with other governors and a handful of foreign officials eager to
> see the U.S. go down the same path to financial ruin as they have chosen.
>
> Meanwhile, California's nonpartisan budget analyst on Tuesday predicted the
> state will have a $27.8 billion deficit over the next 20 months. This is a
> mind-boggling gap, equal to roughly 26% of the state's $103.3 billion in
> annual general-fund spending. And if nothing's done, the deficit will
> average $22 billion a year for the next five years.
>
> This, not global warming, is California's true disaster in the making.
Absolutely, and California is as usual just a little bit ahead of
everybody else. But what befell California and will befall others didn't
happen because California decided to curtail their production of carbon
dioxide. California is the epicenter of carbon dioxide production. It is
the one place in the world where people have been producing more carbon
dioxide than anywhere else in the world. California has built a society
that is completely structured around and devoted to this one endeavor.
I ask you to explain the long term economic damage that mitigating
global warming causes and you give me California. California is an
example of the opposite.
The problem with dependencies and bingeing is that it cause serious
changes to the brain chemistry of those who engage in this behavioral
disorder. Individuals become irrational and entertain wild, destructive
and delusional thoughts when they perceive that something might be
getting in their way of engaging in the dysfunctional dependency.
An example of such irrational thinking would be for somone to claim
that California is an example of the bad things that happen to a society
that curtails production of carbon dioxide. This sort of thinking is not
founded on anything that prevails in the real world. This sort of
thinking is just pulling a bogeyman from out of the closet or under the
bed. A person can become so far removed from reality while pursuing
this irrational line of thought that they would claim that all
California had to do was just start to think about fixing global warming
and the whole world came crashing down on their heads.
Do you really believe people are going to buy into this spiel: So folks
look at California and let this be a lesson - Don't even think about
global warming unless you want the bogeyman to get you, too.
-jim
>
> Schwarzenegger's response? Cut spending, yes, but also raise taxes. The time
> to cut spending, however, was four years ago, not when disaster struck. A
> narrow slice of rich Californians now pay virtually all the state's taxes,
> so when a downturn occurs, the budget collapses.
>
> Ironically, Schwarzenegger entered office four years ago after challenging
> the sitting governor, Gray Davis, in a recall election over the state's
> energy blackout and - you guess it - its huge budget deficit.
>
> Since then, overall spending under Schwarzenegger has soared $41 billion, or
> more than 40%. General-fund spending has jumped by $27 billion to $103.3
> billion, a 35% increase. Growth under Davis was less than half that. Maybe
> he's got an apology coming.
>
> California's economy is struggling in large part because Schwarzenegger
> hasn't lived up to his promise to tackle the out-of-control budget. Instead,
> he's riding his global warming hobbyhorse. Who knows? Maybe he'll ride it
> all the way to a post in President Obama's administration.
>
You still
Last Post
> z0n0b wrote:
>
> > "jim" <".sjedgingN0sp"@m...@mwt.net> wrote in message
> >news:HMGdnUKiXPkq587X...@bright.net...
> > > What precisely is the economic damage/ Has anybody ever explained this?
> > > The
> > > opponents to global warming just toss the "economic damage" bogeyman out
> > > there
> > > as if it were a article of faith that doesn't require any facts to back it
> > > up.
•• Well Jim, your posts have nothing whatsoever to
do with the Maldives' government's attempts to
scam some big buck$ from the industrial nations.
•• The anthropogenic global warming alarmists have
yet to prove their case that global warming exists,
nor have they proved that carbon dioxide is
causing the warming that doesn't exist, or that their
very expensive proposed defensive measures will
not destroy our economies.
>
> > Just look to California son!
>
> > California Fast Becoming A Basket Case Thanks To Idiotic Global Warming
> > Policies
>
> Apparently no one has informed you that California is not alone - there
> was a worldwide economic meltdown that occurred in the past year.
•• California has been going downhill because of its
idiotic Global Warming Policies imposed by a
series of liberal fascist governments, long before
the recent global meltdown.
> Californians produce
> more carbon dioxide per capita then 99.9% of the people on this planet.
> If anything, California would be the poster child for the bad things
> that happen to people who are dedicated to producing too much carbon
> dioxide. Leave Global Warming out of it and let's just look at the bare
> facts:
•• How about some proof for that bullshit??
> An economy that is addicted to consuming large quantities of oil is
> unhealthy.
•• More proof is required.
> Consuming large quantities of oil is a behavioral disorder.
> The behavioral disorder is known as "bingeing".
•• ROTFLMAO ~~ More nonsense!!!
> Bingeing is defined as consuming large quantities of a substance in a
> short period of time. Man has known for 1000's of years that bingeing is
> destructive. One would think that it is obvious that Society has a
> vested interest in curtailing destructive behavior.
•• A lot of nonsense void of facts
>
> > California is headed toward fiscal disaster, thanks to the worst performance
> > by any state, ever. So what does Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger do? Convene a
> > big meeting on global warming, of course.
>
> > The swaggering governator will host an international summit next week "to
> > discuss and develop strategies aimed at combating climate change."
>
> > Along with California's chief executive, five other governors plan to attend
> > the extravaganza - between, of course, pleading for bailouts from Washington
> > for their ailing state economies. Also invited are officials from Australia,
> > Brazil, Canada, China, the EU, India, Indonesia, Mexico, New Zealand,
> > Poland, Spain and Britain.
>
> > In case you don't remember, California in 2006 passed the most sweeping
> > greenhouse gas limits for any state in the union. Under this plan, CO2
> > output would be slashed by 25% by the year 2020. This is equivalent to
> > removing 6.5 million vehicles from the road.
>
> Are you expecting that I am going to be horrified by the thought of 6.5
> million Californians might be finding something else to do with their
> life besides spending it being stuck in freeway traffic?
•• Bullshit!!!
>
> It looks like with the economic meltdown California will achieve their
> 25% reduction in their use of fossil fuel by the end of this year. No
> need to wait till 2020.
•• If it does, watch California's agricultural economy
wither and a run on portable oxygen tanks/masks.
>
>
>
> > Sounds great. Except that greenhouse gas output has yet to budge, and the
> > promised boom from "green jobs" promised by Schwarzenegger and his
> > Democratic friends are nowhere in sight. California's jobless rate is now
> > officially over 7%, nearly a point above the national average.
>
> Actually it is much worse than that. 12%-15% unemployment are the most
> recent estimates I have seen and it is still growing.
>
>
>
> > Instead, the greenhouse gas limits approved by Schwarzenegger will cost
> > California billions of dollars in lost output as businesses locate elsewhere
> > and take jobs with them.
>
> > The one-time Golden State is rapidly deteriorating from a cutting-edge,
> > high-tech economy to the fiscal equivalent of a Third World nation.
>
> All of that may happen but it is delusional thought process that leads
> one to believe the root cause of the meltdown was their embrace of
> Global warming mitigation. Businesses in California are not packing up
> and going elsewhere - they are just packing up and closing down period.
>
>
>
> > "The state global warming programs are costly to consumers and will not have
> > any impact on the environment," the nonpartisan American Legislative Council
> > concluded in a recent report.
>
> I can agree with that. There is no doubt that developing ways of
> functioning effectively without engaging in bingeing will be costly.
> The problem is, Do you think an economy based on oil bingeing is a
> complete free lunch? Do you think that has no cost? The truth is that
> riding the roller coaster of an economy based on oil bingeing is far
> more costly than the cost of curtailing that bingeing.
>
•• Such a silly jasckass~~ In one year the entire
legislature, congressional delegation and
governor would be GONE!
>
> > In short, no bang for the buck. Just a lot of photo ops of Schwarzenegger
> > hobnobbing with other governors and a handful of foreign officials eager to
> > see the U.S. go down the same path to financial ruin as they have chosen.
>
> > Meanwhile, California's nonpartisan budget analyst on Tuesday predicted the
> > state will have a $27.8 billion deficit over the next 20 months. This is a
> > mind-boggling gap, equal to roughly 26% of the state's $103.3 billion in
> > annual general-fund spending. And if nothing's done, the deficit will
> > average $22 billion a year for the next five years.
>
> > This, not global warming, is California's true disaster in the making.
>
> > Schwarzenegger's response? Cut spending, yes, but also raise taxes. The time
jim
Last Post wrote:
>
> �� The anthropogenic global warming alarmists have
> yet to prove their case that global warming exists,
> nor have they proved that carbon dioxide is
> causing the warming that doesn't exist, or that their
> very expensive proposed defensive measures will
> not destroy our economies.
I agree they have failed to prove much of anything and the same can be said of
their opponents. but so what? If high price oil is going to destroy our
economies then our economies are dead men walking. Think about it.
If you are interested in not existing in a perpetual cycle of destroyed
economies and recovering from same then you might give some thought to how to
live without dependency on a substance that produces that result.
-jim
Last Post
> Last Post wrote:
>
> > •• The anthropogenic global warming alarmists have
> > yet to prove their case that global warming exists,
> > nor have they proved that carbon dioxide is
> > causing the warming that doesn't exist, or that their
> > very expensive proposed defensive measures will
> > not destroy our economies.
>
> I agree they have failed to prove much of anything and the same can be said of
> their opponents. but so what? If high price oil is going to destroy our
> economies then our economies are dead men walking. Think about it.
•• The high price of oil in the past few years was
created by speculators that gambled that there would
be a shortage, and encouraged by the Saudi OPEC
honcho, boosted the futures market. While some major
producers (Russia, Arabia) were down to water
extraction in the early '80s, new technology discovered
by Dr. Thomas Gold (founding director of
Cornell University Center for Radiophysics and Space
Research) and Dr. J.F. Kenney of Gas Resources
Corporations, Houston, Texas and a couple of Russians.
•• Dr Gold noted that geologic structures where oil
is found all correspond to "deep earth" formations,
not the haphazard depositions we find with
sedimentary rock, associated fossils or even
current surface life.
He also notes that oil extracted from varying
depths from the same oil field have the same
chemistry – oil chemistry does not vary as fossils
vary with increasing depth. Also interesting is the
fact that oil is found in huge quantities among
geographic formations where assays of prehistoric
life are not sufficient to produce the existing
reservoirs of oil. Where then did it come from?
Another interesting fact is that every oil field
throughout the world has outgassing helium.
Helium is so often present in oil fields that
helium detectors are used as oil-prospecting
tools. Helium is an inert gas known to be a
fundamental product of the radiological decay or
uranium and thorium, identified in quantity at great
depths below the surface of the earth, 200 and
more miles below. It is not found in meaningful
quantities in areas that are not producing methane,
oil or natural gas. It is not a member of the dozen
or so common elements associated with life. It is
found throughout the solar system as a thoroughly
inorganic product.
Even more intriguing is evidence that several oil
reservoirs around the globe are refilling themselves,
such as the Eugene Island reservoir – not from the
sides, as would be expected from cocurrent organic
reservoirs, but from the bottom up.
•• In Russia, Putinski is gambling his entire economy
on his new found wealth of oil and gas. He has a
lot of it not only in Crimea/Black Sea but in
Siberia, Uzbekhistan and points East, West and
NORTH.
>
> If you are interested in not existing in a perpetual cycle of destroyed
> economies and recovering from same then you might give some thought to how to
> live without dependency on a substance that produces that result.
•• ROTFLMAO!!
Your entire thesis is based on fictitious nonsense.
Try proving some of it, if you can.
–– ––
There are three types of people that you
can_not_talk into behaving well. The
stupid, the religious fanatic, and the evil.
1-The stupid aren't smart enough to
follow the logic of what you say. You
have to tell them what is right in very
simple terms. If they don't agree, then
you'll never be able to change their mind.
2- the religious fanatic
If what you say goes against their
religious belief, they will cling to that
religious belief even if it means their
death."
3- There is no way to reform evil-
Not in a million years
There is no way to convince the terrorists,
anthropogenic global warming alarmists,
serial killers, paedophiles, and predators
to change their evil ways. They knew what
they were doing was wrong, but that
knowledge didn't stop them. It only made
them more careful in how they went about
performing their evil acts.
jim
Last Post wrote:
> The high price of oil in the past few years was
> created by speculators that gambled that there would
> be a shortage, and encouraged by the Saudi OPEC
> honcho, boosted the futures market.
The high price of oil was caused by oil consumers who are suffering from
a social disorder. Consumers have become completely unable to regulate
their consumption. That is one of the symptoms of a bingeing disorder.
If you are concerned about oil speculators and gouging, The solution is
not difficult - just withhold purchasing. If consumers did that even
briefly, then the speculators would be screwed, but they can't bring
themselves to doing that. Many can't even bring themselves to thinking
about doing that. When the thought of not buying petroleum products
occurs to you ( even if it is only briefly) does it give you the shakes?
See if you recognize any of these sort of behaviors described here:
> >
> > If you are interested in not existing in a perpetual cycle of destroyed
> > economies and recovering from same then you might give some thought to how to
> > live without dependency on a substance that produces that result.
>
> •• ROTFLMAO!!
> Your entire thesis is based on fictitious nonsense.
> Try proving some of it, if you can.
It is not nonsense. You are exhibit A in support of my thesis.
My entire thesis is that when oil prices remain steady the economy
behaves well, but when oil prices fail to remain stable and low the
economy goes into the toilet. This has never failed. It is as dependable
as a swiss watch.
You claim that curtailing the dependency on oil will cause long term
economic damage but you present that idea as if it was a divinely given
and you are confident it will be excepted by all with zero evidence to
support it. The reality is that the excessive dependency on oil has made
the US weak and inflexible. The damage is being done by continuing this
dependency not by discontinuing it as you claim. We are going to be
handing future generations a huge amount of debt and at the same time
they are going to be inheriting an economy that is completely
ill-equipped to survive in the world of the future. That is, a world of
high priced oil.
Your arguments against are clearly clouded by your cravings. Your
arguments in favor are driven by angst about withdrawal and not any true
economic considerations. You are willing to argue any point, believe in
any miracle or follow any path as long as it doesn't induce images of
withdrawal from oil. That is exhibit A. We'll make Mr. Bonzo exhibit B.
-jim
What A. Fool
wrote:
I imagine we all have given some thought to it, the
problem is being able to afford to use something other
than gasoline or diesel.
I just checked bulk methanol price at $277 per
55 gal drum, but Compressed Natural Gas looks cheaper
in Canada, only the conversion kit for my car might cost
more than $2000 installed.
E85 might be a better deal if I had one of the
millions of GM or Ford cars that can run on any
proportion of ethanol and gasoline, they didn't
make those in the year cars I can afford.
z0n0b
"Fran" <fran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c52e206-5b1f-422b...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 8, 4:20 pm, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:189b22db-d56d-4665...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 8, 2:27 pm, Benj <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 7, 11:41 pm, Fran <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > EVIL CO2!
>
> > > You must have proponents of mitigation confused with someone who
> > > thinks CO2 is evil. I appreciate that you rightwingers find moving
> > > beyond manichean categorisation intellectually challenging. Maybe it's
> > > the curse you religionists suffer, but give it a try.
>
> > Nice vocabulary, Fran. It is too bad like most liberals
>
> oooh ... one mistake already. I'm no liberal. Ask anyone who pays
> attention.
>
> > you can't say
> > anything logically coherent using any of it. I would have used the
> > word "animistic" rather than manichean.
>
> I was asserting that the rightwingers were unable to move beyond
> simple dualities -- in this case good and evil.
> ======================================
>
> Huh?
> What on earth does an atheist mean by "good" and "evil"??????????????
Nothing at all. These terms are, IMO, the proeprty of religionists.
Can't you read for meaning?
> If they were to think their positions through properly, these two terms
> would be totally meaningless.
Been there done that a very long time ago.
> After all an atheistic universe is NECESSARILY totally chaotic and amoral.
We atheists have no general view about whether the universe is chaotic
and amoral. Atheism is simply the view that that gods and spirits
don't exist (or a disbelief in their existence). It doesn't prescribe
what else we think about life, the universe or anything else. Atheists
express a range of views.
======================================
Oh yes it does.
So, are you telling me that a belief that the universe is NOT chaotic and
amoral is an option for an atheist then?
If so why so?
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Fran
> "Fran" <fran.b...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Atheism is nothing more than a negative declaration on the truth
status of the notion of god. I'm a 'strong' atheist, meaning that I am
convinced that such a thing as god (or gods) cannot exist -- the
concept being inevitably a paradox. I declare: there is no god. Other
atheists are weaker, merely decalring an abscence of positive belief
in god -- they see no positive reason for including god in their
efforts to seek insight into the nature of the world.
Neither of these broad positions entails beleifs about chaos in the
universe or the character of any moral values contained within.
Fran
z0n0b
On Jul 9, 10:44 am, "z0n0b" <i...@j.com> wrote:
> "Fran" <fran.b...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Atheism is nothing more than a negative declaration on the truth
status of the notion of god. I'm a 'strong' atheist, meaning that I am
convinced that such a thing as god (or gods) cannot exist -- the
concept being inevitably a paradox. I declare: there is no god. Other
atheists are weaker, merely decalring an abscence of positive belief
in god -- they see no positive reason for including god in their
efforts to seek insight into the nature of the world.
Neither of these broad positions entails beleifs about chaos in the
universe or the character of any moral values contained within.
======================================
Huh?
It follows LOGICALLY that if there is no God then the universe is OF
NECESSITY chaotic and amoral.
Think about it!
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Fran
It doesn't. There are physical laws governing motion, states of matter
etc. To sday the system is "chaotic" implies that there are no
physical laws -- which position, if one accepted it, would create
space for god, who is of course, in the conception of him, able to
make it up as he goes along.
Of course what is chaotic is not the universe but our perceptions of
it, since, clearly, our knowledge is partial -- infinitessimal really
-- and our ability to model this complexity constrained by our ability
to gather data and process reliably in real time. It's easier to speak
of this condition as "chaos".
I cannot begin to imagine how a universe could be "moral" but I leave
other atheists who want to assert it is to sort that one out.
In any event, this is my view. It's not necessarily shared by all
atheists.
> Think about it!
>
BTDT ...
Fran
jim
Bernd Felsche wrote:
>
> jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
> >Last Post wrote:
>
> >> The high price of oil in the past few years was
> >> created by speculators that gambled that there would
> >> be a shortage, and encouraged by the Saudi OPEC
> >> honcho, boosted the futures market.
>
> >The high price of oil was caused by oil consumers who are suffering
> >from a social disorder. Consumers have become completely unable to
> >regulate their consumption. That is one of the symptoms of a
> >bingeing disorder.
>
> Wrong. The high price of oil is caused by SPECULATIVE TRADING.
> <http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8878>
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/business/08cftc.html?_r=1&hp>
>
> The "real" oil price is under US$40/bbl ... If it were sustained any
> higher, then alternative sources of oil become financially viable.
>
> Oil from shale is viable at less than US$60/bbl ... if the price is
> sustained and at that level due to real world (non-speculative)
> market forces.
>
> "Oil" from coal is viable at (probably much) less than US$100/bbl.
The value of oil is what consumers are willing to pay for it. That means
in today's world the real value of oil would be probably around
$400-$500 a barrel ofr even more. At somewhere around that price point
consumers would start to withdraw from the market and supply and demand
would become stable and thus the price would stabilize and remain
steady. So why hasn't the price risen to that level which is the amount
consumers would be willing to pay? The answer is the world would become
a very ugly place if millions of oil addicts were put in that position.
Oil addicts would be selling their children to pay for their oil fix....
well we don't even want to think about what would happen do we?
The price of oil is clearly being manipulated by powerful world
political forces. There is no doubt about it. But the price is not being
held high - it is being held artificially low. Whether you know it or
not the political forces that be know it. They understand the terrible
consequences that would ensue if pure market forces were allowed to take
over.
You have created a story that the "real oil price" is somewhere
between $40-$60 per barrel not by any rational economic analysis, but by
a social analysis. You conclude that at %50/barrel you could feed your
addiction to oil without suffering any functional impairment. I think
that is probably correct. I think you are absolutely right that if we
could have an infinite supply of oil at $50/brl, then oil addiction
wouldn't be a big problem. But unfortunately your story is a fairy tale.
You can't just say that oil will be $50 abarrel and it will last for
ever and everybody will live happily ever after.
It just simply is not sustainable view to the future. And at some point
your fairy tale will have a very bad ending and people won't live
happily ever after.
-jim
> --
> /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
> \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | The growth of knowledge depends
> X against HTML mail | entirely on disagreement.
> / \ and postings | -- Karl Popper
Last Post
•• What has the price of oil to do with sea levels
in the Maldives? Nothing!! Do try to stay on
topic and keep up.
jim
Last Post wrote:
> What has the price of oil to do with sea levels
> in the Maldives? Nothing!! Do try to stay on
> topic and keep up.
Ah, a moment of clarity. Is the gasoline soaked rag you have been
sucking on beginning to dry out?
Your sudden interest in discussing the Maldives is a bit of a surprise.
All I see in your previous posts is a lot of whining about speculators
driving up the price of oil.
-jim
Last Post
–– ––
leona...@gmail.com
> Last Post wrote:
> >http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:CmUC1JSZTlMJ:stephenschneider.st...
>
> > New perspectives for the future of the Maldives
> > Nils-Axel Mörner a, *, Michael Tooley b , Göran Possnert c
> > a Paleogeophysics and Geodynamics, Kraftriket 24,
> > Stockholm University, Stockholm 10691, Sweden
> > b Geography and Archaelogy, University of Durham,
> > Durham, UK
> > c The Angstrom Laboratory, Uppsala University,
> > Uppsala, SwedenReceived 4 December 2001;
> > accepted 7 May 2003
>
> Nils-Axel Mörner is an idiot.
•• Coming from Jackass Jake that means Mörner is
a brilliant scholar which we already know he is.
>
> > Abstract:
> > Novel prospects for the Maldives do not include a condemnation to
> > future flooding. The people of the Maldives have, in the past,
> > survived a higher sea level of about 50–60 cm.
> > The present trend lack signs of a sea level rise. On the contrary,
> > there is firm morphological evidence of a significant sea level fall
> > in the last 30 years. This sea level fall is likely to be the effect
> > of increased evaporation and an intensification of the NE-monsoon over
> > the central Indian Ocean.
> > D 2003 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved
>
> > Introduction
> > The Maldives in the central Indian Ocean consist of some 1200
> > individual islands grouped in about 20larger atolls. They rise as
> > steep pinnacles from a depth of about 2500 m (Barbu, 1988) and consist
> > of coral reefs, coral reef debris and coral sand. Their elevation is
> > only of the order of 1–2 m. Hence, they have been condemned to be
> > flooded in the near future (e.g. Hoffman et al., 1983; IPCC, 2001).
> > The first studies of the Maldives are a century old (Gardiner, 1902;
> > Agassiz, 1903; see also Davis et al., 1971; Prudy, 1981). More
> > recently, Woodroffe (1992) presented the first sea level curve for the
> > Maldives. He claimed that the islands were predominantly formed by
> > catch-up coral reef growth. In contrast to this, Anderson (1998)
> > recorded the last glaciation maximum (LGM) sea level at several
> > places, indicating that much of the Maldives existed as land during
> > this sea level low-stand. In our present Maldives Project, we have
> > been able to show that the atolls are not dominated by catch-up reef
> > growth as previously believed, but are to a great extent of pre-
> > Holocene age. We detected large karst areas, submarine caves and shore
> > notches from islands existing prior to the last glaciation maximum.
> > Rocks of Last Interglacial age were found to occur close to and below
> > sea level and up to + 1.2–1.3 m. Hence,the Maldives have remained more
> > or less stable in Late Quaternary time. The Maldives lie right in the
> > centre of the Earth’s deepest
> > geoid depression of about À 100 m (e.g. Mörner, 2000). At the last
> > glaciation maximum (LGM), the geoid relief appears, however, to have
> > been even greater. A new sea level curve for the last 5000 years has
> > been constructed (Fig. 1). It is a low-amplitude 0921-8181/$
> > Page 2
> > oscillating curve, and includes stages when sea level was well above
> > the present level: + 1.0–1.2 m at 3900BP, + 0.1–0.2 m at 2700 BP, +
> > 0.4–0.5 m at 1000–800 BP and + 0.3 m at about AD 1900–1970. As the
> > islands were well inhabited by 1500–1300 BP, these people survived a
> > higher sea level of some 40–50 cmat around 1000–800 BP. In this paper,
> > we will concentrate on the present-to-future perspectives.
>
> > 2. New records from the Maldives In 1999, the INQUA Commission on Sea
> > Level Changes and Coastal Evolution initiated a special research
> > project in order to decode the history of theMaldives, record the past
> > sea level changes andunderstand the present-to-future prospect of
> > theislands (INQUA, 2000; Tooley, 2000). In our studyof the coastal
> > dynamics and the geomorphology of theshores, we were unable to detect
> > any traces of a recentsea level rise. On the contrary, we found quite
> > clearmorphological indications of a recent fall in sea level.Our
> > information come from numerous islands inthe Baa–Raa–Guidhoo Atolls,
> > from Viligili island inthe North Male Atoll, from Lhosfushi–Garaidhoo–
> > Kodoomaafushi islands in the South Male Atoll, andfrom Hithadhoo
> > island in the Addo Atoll (Fig. 2).Many islands are affected by
> > erosion. Erosion maybe caused by sea level rise, sea level lowering,
> > changein wind direction and change in wind intensity. Hence,it is not
> > a measure of sea level rise (as often claimed).The level of re-
> > deposition of the sand and shingle setin motion by erosion is a much
> > better indication ofactual sea level changes; moving in over former
> > landif sea level is rising, and adding lower levels seawardsif sea is
> > falling.Erosion may, of course, also be caused by humaninterference
> > with the coastal dynamics and sedimentsupply. In the Maldives, there
> > are many examples ofsevere erosion due to the construction of
> > causewaysbetween islands, dredging, harbour works and seadefences. In
> > most cases, however, those effects areeasily understood in terms of
> > actual human coastalactivity.Our observational field data shedding new
> > light onthe present to sub-recent sea level changes areexpressed in
> > the four graphs (A–D) in Fig. 3.2.1. General island morphology Fig. 3A
> > illustrates the general morphological situ- ation of all islands
> > studied. It was first observed in theGuidhoo–Baa–Raa Atolls. The
> > islands have a veryclear stepwise coastal evolution; (1) a present
> > shorewith high-tide level (HTL) and a higher storm level,(2) a sub-
> > recent level that is overgrown by vegetationor in the process of
> > becoming overgrown, and (3) anold island surface with a strong soil
> > profile. This is thegeneral situation from island to island. The
> > section in Fig. 3A is an actual levelled profile from the island of
> > Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll. The mean sea level Fig. 1. Sea level curve
> > for the last 5000 years for the Maldives. Black dots = past sea level
> > positions dated by radiocarbon (AMS), greydots = dates by Woodroffe
> > (1992) with uncertain relation to sea level, open circles = dates by
> > Woodroffe (1992) without closer relation to aformer sea level. The sea
> > level curve is oscillating with four levels above the present level; +
> > 1.1–1.2 m at 3900 BP, + 0.1–0.2 m at 2700 BP,+ 0.5–0.6 m at 1000–800
> > BP and + 0.2–0.3 m at AD 1900–1970. The islands have been inhabited,
> > at least, since 1500 BP.N.-A. Mörner et al. / Global and Planetary
> > Change 40 (2004) 177–182178
> > Page 3
> > seems closely to approximate the surface of a beachrock cut into a
> > flat surface (a rock cut platform). TheHTL is at + 0.45 m, the storm
> > level at + 0.9–0.8 m,the sub-recent level is at + 1.2 m, and the old
> > islandsurface at + 1.45 m. This seems to indicate that theisland
> > surface was built up at a 60 cm higher sea leveland that the sub-
> > recent level was formed at a 30 cmhigher sea level.A higher sea level
> > of about + 60 cm in LateHolocene times is recorded in sandy environment
> > (e.g. Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll) as well as inbeach-rock environment
> > (e.g. Fulhudhoo in the Guid-hoo Atoll).The sub-recent level seems, in
> > general, to havebeen at about + 30 cm (in sandy section of
> > theHulhodhoo as well as in the beach-rock coast ofFulhudhoo).The most
> > important and interesting fact is the sealevel fall of about 20–30 cm
> > between the sub-recentlevel and the present level. The morphology is
> > clear,but it does not provide any exact dating. From theshape and
> > freshness, one would assume that the sealevel fall took place in the
> > last 50 years, or so.2.2. Sailing routes in the Vavu Atoll Fig. 3B
> > illustrates the batymetric situation of the Thinadhoo–Felidhoo area on
> > the eastern side of theVavu Atoll. Here, local people report that the
> > dhonis(local fishing boats) could pass straight across theMaduvvaree
> > Falhu thila (with on old reef surface nolonger growing) in the 1970s
> > and early 1980s, whilstthey in the last 15 years have had to make a
> > detouraround the thila, because it is now too shallow. Thethila has
> > not grown, so it must be the sea that has fallen.This fits perfectly
> > well with the island morphologyas discussed above. In this case,
> > however, the sealevel fall is dated to the 1970s to early 1980s.2.3.
> > The ‘‘reef woman’’ at LhosfushiIn 1996, a skeleton was found ‘‘in the
> > reef’’ close tothe islands of Lhosfushi–Garaidhoo which becameknown as
> > ‘‘the reef woman’’ from Lhosfushi (Rasheed, 1996). We recently
> > undertook a careful investigation of the site with respect of
> > stratigraphy,morphology and depositional environment (Fig. 3C).The
> > skeleton lies in an indurated beach sand. It is Fig. 2. The Maldives
> > in the central Indian Ocean consists of some1200 individual islands
> > grouped into about 20 larger atolls. Dotsindicate islands studied with
> > respect to present to sub-recent sealevel changes.N.-A. Mörner et
> > al. / Global and Planetary Change 40 (2004) 177–182179
> > Page 4
> > a beach-rockgrades into an on-shore sand, now cemented. Thesurface of
> > the on-shore sand lies about 70 cm abovethe present on-shore sand,
> > indicating a higher sea levelat that time. Remnants of the beach-rock
> > reach some40–50 cm above present mean sea level. The mainpart of the
> > beach-rock is cut into a rock-cut platformwith its surface at about +
> > 20 cm. Along the shore ofLhusfushi, there are three steps and beach
> > ridges; the Fig. 3. Coastal sections illustrating Late Holocene and
> > sub-recent to present sea level changes in the Maldives. (A) General
> > island morphologyas recorded in the Guidhoo–Baa–Raa Atolls including a
> > stepwise evolution; an old vegetated island surface with a deep soil
> > profile, a sub-recent level in the process of becoming overgrown and a
> > present coastal morphology including a storm level, a high-tide level
> > (HTL) and abeach-rock (B.R.) eroded into a flat rock-cut platform at
> > mean sea level (the section refers to an actual profile levelled over
> > the shore ofHulhudhoo in Baa
>
> ...
>
> read more »
BDR529
> On Jul 23, 4:59 am, BDR529 <jake> wrote:
>> Last Post wrote:
>>> http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:CmUC1JSZTlMJ:stephenschneider.st...
>>> New perspectives for the future of the Maldives
>>> a Paleogeophysics and Geodynamics, Kraftriket 24,
>>> Stockholm University, Stockholm 10691, Sweden
>>> b Geography and Archaelogy, University of Durham,
>>> Durham, UK
>>> c The Angstrom Laboratory, Uppsala University,
>>> Uppsala, SwedenReceived 4 December 2001;
>>> accepted 7 May 2003
>
> �� Coming from Jackass Jake that means M�rner is
> a brilliant scholar which we already know he is.
Check the facts, Morner is a cry baby yelling about a cut tree on some
remote island.
He denies sea level change, while it is easy to measure with satellite
altimeters, tide gauges, GRACE and AGROS.
So why would I have to listen to some AGW denial idiot again.
Face the facts Leonard, your believe is to accept cry baby stories from
a liar.
AGW deniers are liars,
Q
>
>>> Abstract:
>>> Novel prospects for the Maldives do not include a condemnation to
>>> future flooding. The people of the Maldives have, in the past,
>>> survived a higher sea level of about 50�60 cm.
>>> The present trend lack signs of a sea level rise. On the contrary,
>>> there is firm morphological evidence of a significant sea level fall
>>> in the last 30 years. This sea level fall is likely to be the effect
>>> of increased evaporation and an intensification of the NE-monsoon over
>>> the central Indian Ocean.
>>> D 2003 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved
>>> Introduction
>>> The Maldives in the central Indian Ocean consist of some 1200
>>> individual islands grouped in about 20larger atolls. They rise as
>>> steep pinnacles from a depth of about 2500 m (Barbu, 1988) and consist
>>> of coral reefs, coral reef debris and coral sand. Their elevation is
>>> only of the order of 1�2 m. Hence, they have been condemned to be
>>> flooded in the near future (e.g. Hoffman et al., 1983; IPCC, 2001).
>>> The first studies of the Maldives are a century old (Gardiner, 1902;
>>> Agassiz, 1903; see also Davis et al., 1971; Prudy, 1981). More
>>> recently, Woodroffe (1992) presented the first sea level curve for the
>>> Maldives. He claimed that the islands were predominantly formed by
>>> catch-up coral reef growth. In contrast to this, Anderson (1998)
>>> recorded the last glaciation maximum (LGM) sea level at several
>>> places, indicating that much of the Maldives existed as land during
>>> this sea level low-stand. In our present Maldives Project, we have
>>> been able to show that the atolls are not dominated by catch-up reef
>>> growth as previously believed, but are to a great extent of pre-
>>> Holocene age. We detected large karst areas, submarine caves and shore
>>> notches from islands existing prior to the last glaciation maximum.
>>> Rocks of Last Interglacial age were found to occur close to and below
>>> sea level and up to + 1.2�1.3 m. Hence,the Maldives have remained more
>>> or less stable in Late Quaternary time. The Maldives lie right in the
>>> centre of the Earth�s deepest
>>> geoid depression of about � 100 m (e.g. M�rner, 2000). At the last
>>> glaciation maximum (LGM), the geoid relief appears, however, to have
>>> been even greater. A new sea level curve for the last 5000 years has
>>> been constructed (Fig. 1). It is a low-amplitude 0921-8181/$
>>> Page 2
>>> oscillating curve, and includes stages when sea level was well above
>>> the present level: + 1.0�1.2 m at 3900BP, + 0.1�0.2 m at 2700 BP, +
>>> 0.4�0.5 m at 1000�800 BP and + 0.3 m at about AD 1900�1970. As the
>>> islands were well inhabited by 1500�1300 BP, these people survived a
>>> higher sea level of some 40�50 cmat around 1000�800 BP. In this paper,
>>> we will concentrate on the present-to-future perspectives.
>>> 2. New records from the Maldives In 1999, the INQUA Commission on Sea
>>> Level Changes and Coastal Evolution initiated a special research
>>> project in order to decode the history of theMaldives, record the past
>>> sea level changes andunderstand the present-to-future prospect of
>>> theislands (INQUA, 2000; Tooley, 2000). In our studyof the coastal
>>> dynamics and the geomorphology of theshores, we were unable to detect
>>> any traces of a recentsea level rise. On the contrary, we found quite
>>> clearmorphological indications of a recent fall in sea level.Our
>>> information come from numerous islands inthe Baa�Raa�Guidhoo Atolls,
>>> from Viligili island inthe North Male Atoll, from Lhosfushi�Garaidhoo�
>>> Kodoomaafushi islands in the South Male Atoll, andfrom Hithadhoo
>>> island in the Addo Atoll (Fig. 2).Many islands are affected by
>>> erosion. Erosion maybe caused by sea level rise, sea level lowering,
>>> changein wind direction and change in wind intensity. Hence,it is not
>>> a measure of sea level rise (as often claimed).The level of re-
>>> deposition of the sand and shingle setin motion by erosion is a much
>>> better indication ofactual sea level changes; moving in over former
>>> landif sea level is rising, and adding lower levels seawardsif sea is
>>> falling.Erosion may, of course, also be caused by humaninterference
>>> with the coastal dynamics and sedimentsupply. In the Maldives, there
>>> are many examples ofsevere erosion due to the construction of
>>> causewaysbetween islands, dredging, harbour works and seadefences. In
>>> most cases, however, those effects areeasily understood in terms of
>>> actual human coastalactivity.Our observational field data shedding new
>>> light onthe present to sub-recent sea level changes areexpressed in
>>> the four graphs (A�D) in Fig. 3.2.1. General island morphology Fig. 3A
>>> illustrates the general morphological situ- ation of all islands
>>> studied. It was first observed in theGuidhoo�Baa�Raa Atolls. The
>>> islands have a veryclear stepwise coastal evolution; (1) a present
>>> shorewith high-tide level (HTL) and a higher storm level,(2) a sub-
>>> recent level that is overgrown by vegetationor in the process of
>>> becoming overgrown, and (3) anold island surface with a strong soil
>>> profile. This is thegeneral situation from island to island. The
>>> section in Fig. 3A is an actual levelled profile from the island of
>>> Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll. The mean sea level Fig. 1. Sea level curve
>>> for the last 5000 years for the Maldives. Black dots = past sea level
>>> positions dated by radiocarbon (AMS), greydots = dates by Woodroffe
>>> (1992) with uncertain relation to sea level, open circles = dates by
>>> Woodroffe (1992) without closer relation to aformer sea level. The sea
>>> level curve is oscillating with four levels above the present level; +
>>> 1.1�1.2 m at 3900 BP, + 0.1�0.2 m at 2700 BP,+ 0.5�0.6 m at 1000�800
>>> BP and + 0.2�0.3 m at AD 1900�1970. The islands have been inhabited,
>>> at least, since 1500 BP.N.-A. M�rner et al. / Global and Planetary
>>> Change 40 (2004) 177�182178
>>> Page 3
>>> seems closely to approximate the surface of a beachrock cut into a
>>> flat surface (a rock cut platform). TheHTL is at + 0.45 m, the storm
>>> level at + 0.9�0.8 m,the sub-recent level is at + 1.2 m, and the old
>>> islandsurface at + 1.45 m. This seems to indicate that theisland
>>> surface was built up at a 60 cm higher sea leveland that the sub-
>>> recent level was formed at a 30 cmhigher sea level.A higher sea level
>>> of about + 60 cm in LateHolocene times is recorded in sandy environment
>>> (e.g. Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll) as well as inbeach-rock environment
>>> (e.g. Fulhudhoo in the Guid-hoo Atoll).The sub-recent level seems, in
>>> general, to havebeen at about + 30 cm (in sandy section of
>>> theHulhodhoo as well as in the beach-rock coast ofFulhudhoo).The most
>>> important and interesting fact is the sealevel fall of about 20�30 cm
>>> between the sub-recentlevel and the present level. The morphology is
>>> clear,but it does not provide any exact dating. From theshape and
>>> freshness, one would assume that the sealevel fall took place in the
>>> last 50 years, or so.2.2. Sailing routes in the Vavu Atoll Fig. 3B
>>> illustrates the batymetric situation of the Thinadhoo�Felidhoo area on
>>> the eastern side of theVavu Atoll. Here, local people report that the
>>> dhonis(local fishing boats) could pass straight across theMaduvvaree
>>> Falhu thila (with on old reef surface nolonger growing) in the 1970s
>>> and early 1980s, whilstthey in the last 15 years have had to make a
>>> detouraround the thila, because it is now too shallow. Thethila has
>>> not grown, so it must be the sea that has fallen.This fits perfectly
>>> well with the island morphologyas discussed above. In this case,
>>> however, the sealevel fall is dated to the 1970s to early 1980s.2.3.
>>> The ��reef woman�� at LhosfushiIn 1996, a skeleton was found ��in the
>>> reef�� close tothe islands of Lhosfushi�Garaidhoo which becameknown as
>>> ��the reef woman�� from Lhosfushi (Rasheed, 1996). We recently
>>> undertook a careful investigation of the site with respect of
>>> stratigraphy,morphology and depositional environment (Fig. 3C).The
>>> skeleton lies in an indurated beach sand. It is Fig. 2. The Maldives
>>> in the central Indian Ocean consists of some1200 individual islands
>>> grouped into about 20 larger atolls. Dotsindicate islands studied with
>>> respect to present to sub-recent sealevel changes.N.-A. M�rner et
>>> al. / Global and Planetary Change 40 (2004) 177�182179
>>> Page 4
>>> a beach-rockgrades into an on-shore sand, now cemented. Thesurface of
>>> the on-shore sand lies about 70 cm abovethe present on-shore sand,
>>> indicating a higher sea levelat that time. Remnants of the beach-rock
>>> reach some40�50 cm above present mean sea level. The mainpart of the
>>> beach-rock is cut into a rock-cut platformwith its surface at about +
>>> 20 cm. Along the shore ofLhusfushi, there are three steps and beach
>>> ridges; the Fig. 3. Coastal sections illustrating Late Holocene and
>>> sub-recent to present sea level changes in the Maldives. (A) General
>>> island morphologyas recorded in the Guidhoo�Baa�Raa Atolls including a
>>> stepwise evolution; an old vegetated island surface with a deep soil
>>> profile, a sub-recent level in the process of becoming overgrown and a
>>> present coastal morphology including a storm level, a high-tide level
>>> (HTL) and abeach-rock (B.R.) eroded into a flat rock-cut platform at
>>> mean sea level (the section refers to an actual profile levelled over
>>> the shore ofHulhudhoo in Baa
>> ...
>>
>> read more �
>
Last Post
> leonard7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 23, 4:59 am, BDR529 <jake> wrote:
> >> Last Post wrote:
> >>>http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:CmUC1JSZTlMJ:stephenschneider.st...
> >>> New perspectives for the future of the Maldives
> >>> a Paleogeophysics and Geodynamics, Kraftriket 24,
> >>> Stockholm University, Stockholm 10691, Sweden
> >>> b Geography and Archaelogy, University of Durham,
> >>> Durham, UK
> >>> c The Angstrom Laboratory, Uppsala University,
> >>> Uppsala, SwedenReceived 4 December 2001;
> >>> accepted 7 May 2003
>
> > •• Coming from Jackass Jake that means Mörner is
> > a brilliant scholar which we already know he is.
>
> Check the facts, Morner is a cry baby yelling about a cut tree on some
> remote island.
•• ROTFLMAO: I Don't need to "check the facts"
~ I posted them two years ago and a few times
since. Certainly I do not need reminders from
such as Jackass Jake.
The tree in question was dug up by a film crew
filming for an AGW propaganda movie (Gore's?)
and replanted it below the low water mark to give
a false impression of sea level rising.
> He denies sea level change, while it is easy to measure with satellite
> altimeters, tide gauges, GRACE and AGROS.
•• He IS the tide gauge maven. There is no one with his expertise. The
satellite altimeters are really ineffective when measuring the moving
seas and GRACE, Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment, a space
mission to precisely measure Earth's gravity field, obviously not
suited to sea level measures. As for AGROS there are a large number of
that name or acronym, but nothing about the sea.
>
> So why would I have to listen to some AGW denial idiot again.
•• Jackass Jake is the AGW denial idiot. He denies
every fact. You don't have to listen to him or do you??? <GG>
> Face the facts Leonard, your believe is to accept cry baby stories from
> a liar.
•• I don't accept your crybaby et al stories
and you are a LIAR.
> AGW alarmists are liars,
> >>> Abstract:
> >>> Novel prospects for the Maldives do not include a condemnation to
> >>> future flooding. The people of the Maldives have, in the past,
> >>> survived a higher sea level of about 50–60 cm.
> >>> The present trend lack signs of a sea level rise. On the contrary,
> >>> there is firm morphological evidence of a significant sea level fall
> >>> in the last 30 years. This sea level fall is likely to be the effect
> >>> of increased evaporation and an intensification of the NE-monsoon over
> >>> the central Indian Ocean.
> >>> D 2003 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved
> >>> Introduction
> >>> The Maldives in the central Indian Ocean consist of some 1200
> >>> individual islands grouped in about 20larger atolls. They rise as
> >>> steep pinnacles from a depth of about 2500 m (Barbu, 1988) and consist
> >>> of coral reefs, coral reef debris and coral sand. Their elevation is
> >>> only of the order of 1–2 m. Hence, they have been condemned to be
> >>> flooded in the near future (e.g. Hoffman et al., 1983; IPCC, 2001).
> >>> The first studies of the Maldives are a century old (Gardiner, 1902;
> >>> Agassiz, 1903; see also Davis et al., 1971; Prudy, 1981). More
> >>> recently, Woodroffe (1992) presented the first sea level curve for the
> >>> Maldives. He claimed that the islands were predominantly formed by
> >>> catch-up coral reef growth. In contrast to this, Anderson (1998)
> >>> recorded the last glaciation maximum (LGM) sea level at several
> >>> places, indicating that much of the Maldives existed as land during
> >>> this sea level low-stand. In our present Maldives Project, we have
> >>> been able to show that the atolls are not dominated by catch-up reef
> >>> growth as previously believed, but are to a great extent of pre-
> >>> Holocene age. We detected large karst areas, submarine caves and shore
> >>> notches from islands existing prior to the last glaciation maximum.
> >>> Rocks of Last Interglacial age were found to occur close to and below
> >>> sea level and up to + 1.2–1.3 m. Hence,the Maldives have remained more
> >>> or less stable in Late Quaternary time. The Maldives lie right in the
> >>> centre of the Earth’s deepest
> >>> geoid depression of about À 100 m (e.g. Mörner, 2000). At the last
> >>> glaciation maximum (LGM), the geoid relief appears, however, to have
> >>> been even greater. A new sea level curve for the last 5000 years has
> >>> been constructed (Fig. 1). It is a low-amplitude 0921-8181/$
> >>> Page 2
> >>> oscillating curve, and includes stages when sea level was well above
> >>> the present level: + 1.0–1.2 m at 3900BP, + 0.1–0.2 m at 2700 BP, +
> >>> 0.4–0.5 m at 1000–800 BP and + 0.3 m at about AD 1900–1970. As the
> >>> islands were well inhabited by 1500–1300 BP, these people survived a
> >>> higher sea level of some 40–50 cmat around 1000–800 BP. In this paper,
> >>> we will concentrate on the present-to-future perspectives.
> >>> 2. New records from the Maldives In 1999, the INQUA Commission on Sea
> >>> Level Changes and Coastal Evolution initiated a special research
> >>> project in order to decode the history of theMaldives, record the past
> >>> sea level changes andunderstand the present-to-future prospect of
> >>> theislands (INQUA, 2000; Tooley, 2000). In our studyof the coastal
> >>> dynamics and the geomorphology of theshores, we were unable to detect
> >>> any traces of a recentsea level rise. On the contrary, we found quite
> >>> clearmorphological indications of a recent fall in sea level.Our
> >>> information come from numerous islands inthe Baa–Raa–Guidhoo Atolls,
> >>> from Viligili island inthe North Male Atoll, from Lhosfushi–Garaidhoo–
> >>> Kodoomaafushi islands in the South Male Atoll, andfrom Hithadhoo
> >>> island in the Addo Atoll (Fig. 2).Many islands are affected by
> >>> erosion. Erosion maybe caused by sea level rise, sea level lowering,
> >>> changein wind direction and change in wind intensity. Hence,it is not
> >>> a measure of sea level rise (as often claimed).The level of re-
> >>> deposition of the sand and shingle setin motion by erosion is a much
> >>> better indication ofactual sea level changes; moving in over former
> >>> landif sea level is rising, and adding lower levels seawardsif sea is
> >>> falling.Erosion may, of course, also be caused by humaninterference
> >>> with the coastal dynamics and sedimentsupply. In the Maldives, there
> >>> are many examples ofsevere erosion due to the construction of
> >>> causewaysbetween islands, dredging, harbour works and seadefences. In
> >>> most cases, however, those effects areeasily understood in terms of
> >>> actual human coastalactivity.Our observational field data shedding new
> >>> light onthe present to sub-recent sea level changes areexpressed in
> >>> the four graphs (A–D) in Fig. 3.2.1. General island morphology Fig. 3A
> >>> illustrates the general morphological situ- ation of all islands
> >>> studied. It was first observed in theGuidhoo–Baa–Raa Atolls. The
> >>> islands have a veryclear stepwise coastal evolution; (1) a present
> >>> shorewith high-tide level (HTL) and a higher storm level,(2) a sub-
> >>> recent level that is overgrown by vegetationor in the process of
> >>> becoming overgrown, and (3) anold island surface with a strong soil
> >>> profile. This is thegeneral situation from island to island. The
> >>> section in Fig. 3A is an actual levelled profile from the island of
> >>> Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll. The mean sea level Fig. 1. Sea level curve
> >>> for the last 5000 years for the Maldives. Black dots = past sea level
> >>> positions dated by radiocarbon (AMS), greydots = dates by Woodroffe
> >>> (1992) with uncertain relation to sea level, open circles = dates by
> >>> Woodroffe (1992) without closer relation to aformer sea level. The sea
> >>> level curve is oscillating with four levels above the present level; +
> >>> 1.1–1.2 m at 3900 BP, + 0.1–0.2 m at 2700 BP,+ 0.5–0.6 m at 1000–800
> >>> BP and + 0.2–0.3 m at AD 1900–1970. The islands have been inhabited,
> >>> at least, since 1500 BP.N.-A. Mörner et al. / Global and Planetary
> >>> Change 40 (2004) 177–182178
> >>> Page 3
> >>> seems closely to approximate the surface of a beachrock cut into a
> >>> flat surface (a rock cut platform). TheHTL is at + 0.45 m, the storm
> >>> level at + 0.9–0.8 m,the sub-recent level is at + 1.2 m, and the old
> >>> islandsurface at + 1.45 m. This seems to indicate that theisland
> >>> surface was built up at a 60 cm higher sea leveland that the sub-
> >>> recent level was formed at a 30 cmhigher sea level.A higher sea level
> >>> of about + 60 cm in LateHolocene times is recorded in sandy environment
> >>> (e.g. Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll) as well as inbeach-rock environment
> >>> (e.g. Fulhudhoo in the Guid-hoo Atoll).The sub-recent level seems, in
> >>> general, to havebeen at about + 30 cm (in sandy section of
> >>> theHulhodhoo as well as in the beach-rock coast ofFulhudhoo).The most
> >>> important and interesting fact is the sealevel fall of about 20–30 cm
> >>> between the sub-recentlevel and the present level. The morphology is
> >>> clear,but it does not provide any exact dating. From theshape and
> >>> freshness, one would assume that the sealevel fall took place in the
> >>> last 50 years, or so.2.2. Sailing routes in the Vavu Atoll Fig. 3B
> >>> illustrates the batymetric situation of the Thinadhoo–Felidhoo area on
> >>> the eastern side of theVavu Atoll. Here, local people report that the
> >>> dhonis(local fishing boats) could pass straight across theMaduvvaree
> >>> Falhu thila (with on old reef surface nolonger growing) in the 1970s
> >>> and early 1980s, whilstthey in the last 15 years have had to make a
> >>> detouraround the thila, because it is now too shallow. Thethila has
> >>> not grown, so it must be the sea that has fallen.This fits perfectly
> >>> well with the island morphologyas discussed above. In this case,
> >>> however, the sealevel fall is dated to the 1970s to early 1980s.2.3.
> >>> The ‘‘reef woman’’ at LhosfushiIn 1996, a skeleton was found ‘‘in the
> >>> reef’’ close tothe islands of Lhosfushi–Garaidhoo which becameknown as
> >>> ‘‘the reef woman’’ from Lhosfushi (Rasheed, 1996). We recently
> >>> undertook a careful investigation of the site with respect of
> >>> stratigraphy,morphology and depositional environment (Fig. 3C).The
> >>> skeleton lies in an indurated beach sand. It is Fig. 2. The Maldives
> >>> in the central Indian Ocean consists of some1200 individual islands
> >>> grouped into about 20 larger atolls. Dotsindicate islands studied with
> >>> respect to present to sub-recent sealevel changes.N.-A. Mörner et
> >>> al. / Global and Planetary Change 40 (2004) 177–182179
> >>> Page 4
> >>> a beach-rockgrades into an on-shore sand, now cemented. Thesurface of
> >>> the on-shore sand lies about 70 cm abovethe present on-shore sand,
> >>> indicating a higher sea levelat that time. Remnants of the beach-rock
> >>> reach some40–50 cm above present mean sea level. The mainpart of the
>
> ...
>
> read more »
BDR529
> On Jul 26, 1:37 am, BDR529 <jake> wrote:
>> leonard7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Jul 23, 4:59 am, BDR529 <jake> wrote:
>>>> Last Post wrote:
>>>>> http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:CmUC1JSZTlMJ:stephenschneider.st...
>>>>> New perspectives for the future of the Maldives
>>>>> a Paleogeophysics and Geodynamics, Kraftriket 24,
>>>>> Stockholm University, Stockholm 10691, Sweden
>>>>> b Geography and Archaelogy, University of Durham,
>>>>> Durham, UK
>>>>> c The Angstrom Laboratory, Uppsala University,
>>>>> Uppsala, SwedenReceived 4 December 2001;
>>>>> accepted 7 May 2003
>>> a brilliant scholar which we already know he is.
>> Check the facts, Morner is a cry baby yelling about a cut tree on some
>> remote island.
>
> ~ I posted them two years ago and a few times
> since. Certainly I do not need reminders from
> such as Jackass Jake.
>
> The tree in question was dug up by a film crew
> filming for an AGW propaganda movie (Gore's?)
> and replanted it below the low water mark to give
> a false impression of sea level rising.
>
>> He denies sea level change, while it is easy to measure with satellite
>> altimeters, tide gauges, GRACE and AGROS.
>
> satellite altimeters are really ineffective when measuring the moving
> seas and GRACE, Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment, a space
> mission to precisely measure Earth's gravity field, obviously not
> suited to sea level measures. As for AGROS there are a large number of
> that name or acronym, but nothing about the sea.
>> So why would I have to listen to some AGW denial idiot again.
>
> every fact. You don't have to listen to him or do you??? <GG>
>
>> Face the facts Leonard, your believe is to accept cry baby stories from
>> a liar.
>
> and you are a LIAR.
>
>> AGW alarmists are liars,
It is clear that last post does not keep up with science, and that he
sticks to reading propaganda material from his buddy denier idiot alex
morner.
Cry baby Morner still sputters about his tree which was cut. What a
pathetic loooooooooser.
Q
>
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>> Novel prospects for the Maldives do not include a condemnation to
>>>>> future flooding. The people of the Maldives have, in the past,
>>>>> survived a higher sea level of about 50�60 cm.
>>>>> The present trend lack signs of a sea level rise. On the contrary,
>>>>> there is firm morphological evidence of a significant sea level fall
>>>>> in the last 30 years. This sea level fall is likely to be the effect
>>>>> of increased evaporation and an intensification of the NE-monsoon over
>>>>> the central Indian Ocean.
>>>>> D 2003 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved
>>>>> Introduction
>>>>> The Maldives in the central Indian Ocean consist of some 1200
>>>>> individual islands grouped in about 20larger atolls. They rise as
>>>>> steep pinnacles from a depth of about 2500 m (Barbu, 1988) and consist
>>>>> of coral reefs, coral reef debris and coral sand. Their elevation is
>>>>> only of the order of 1�2 m. Hence, they have been condemned to be
>>>>> flooded in the near future (e.g. Hoffman et al., 1983; IPCC, 2001).
>>>>> The first studies of the Maldives are a century old (Gardiner, 1902;
>>>>> Agassiz, 1903; see also Davis et al., 1971; Prudy, 1981). More
>>>>> recently, Woodroffe (1992) presented the first sea level curve for the
>>>>> Maldives. He claimed that the islands were predominantly formed by
>>>>> catch-up coral reef growth. In contrast to this, Anderson (1998)
>>>>> recorded the last glaciation maximum (LGM) sea level at several
>>>>> places, indicating that much of the Maldives existed as land during
>>>>> this sea level low-stand. In our present Maldives Project, we have
>>>>> been able to show that the atolls are not dominated by catch-up reef
>>>>> growth as previously believed, but are to a great extent of pre-
>>>>> Holocene age. We detected large karst areas, submarine caves and shore
>>>>> notches from islands existing prior to the last glaciation maximum.
>>>>> Rocks of Last Interglacial age were found to occur close to and below
>>>>> sea level and up to + 1.2�1.3 m. Hence,the Maldives have remained more
>>>>> or less stable in Late Quaternary time. The Maldives lie right in the
>>>>> centre of the Earth�s deepest
>>>>> geoid depression of about � 100 m (e.g. M�rner, 2000). At the last
>>>>> glaciation maximum (LGM), the geoid relief appears, however, to have
>>>>> been even greater. A new sea level curve for the last 5000 years has
>>>>> been constructed (Fig. 1). It is a low-amplitude 0921-8181/$
>>>>> Page 2
>>>>> oscillating curve, and includes stages when sea level was well above
>>>>> the present level: + 1.0�1.2 m at 3900BP, + 0.1�0.2 m at 2700 BP, +
>>>>> 0.4�0.5 m at 1000�800 BP and + 0.3 m at about AD 1900�1970. As the
>>>>> islands were well inhabited by 1500�1300 BP, these people survived a
>>>>> higher sea level of some 40�50 cmat around 1000�800 BP. In this paper,
>>>>> we will concentrate on the present-to-future perspectives.
>>>>> 2. New records from the Maldives In 1999, the INQUA Commission on Sea
>>>>> Level Changes and Coastal Evolution initiated a special research
>>>>> project in order to decode the history of theMaldives, record the past
>>>>> sea level changes andunderstand the present-to-future prospect of
>>>>> theislands (INQUA, 2000; Tooley, 2000). In our studyof the coastal
>>>>> dynamics and the geomorphology of theshores, we were unable to detect
>>>>> any traces of a recentsea level rise. On the contrary, we found quite
>>>>> clearmorphological indications of a recent fall in sea level.Our
>>>>> information come from numerous islands inthe Baa�Raa�Guidhoo Atolls,
>>>>> from Viligili island inthe North Male Atoll, from Lhosfushi�Garaidhoo�
>>>>> Kodoomaafushi islands in the South Male Atoll, andfrom Hithadhoo
>>>>> island in the Addo Atoll (Fig. 2).Many islands are affected by
>>>>> erosion. Erosion maybe caused by sea level rise, sea level lowering,
>>>>> changein wind direction and change in wind intensity. Hence,it is not
>>>>> a measure of sea level rise (as often claimed).The level of re-
>>>>> deposition of the sand and shingle setin motion by erosion is a much
>>>>> better indication ofactual sea level changes; moving in over former
>>>>> landif sea level is rising, and adding lower levels seawardsif sea is
>>>>> falling.Erosion may, of course, also be caused by humaninterference
>>>>> with the coastal dynamics and sedimentsupply. In the Maldives, there
>>>>> are many examples ofsevere erosion due to the construction of
>>>>> causewaysbetween islands, dredging, harbour works and seadefences. In
>>>>> most cases, however, those effects areeasily understood in terms of
>>>>> actual human coastalactivity.Our observational field data shedding new
>>>>> light onthe present to sub-recent sea level changes areexpressed in
>>>>> the four graphs (A�D) in Fig. 3.2.1. General island morphology Fig. 3A
>>>>> illustrates the general morphological situ- ation of all islands
>>>>> studied. It was first observed in theGuidhoo�Baa�Raa Atolls. The
>>>>> islands have a veryclear stepwise coastal evolution; (1) a present
>>>>> shorewith high-tide level (HTL) and a higher storm level,(2) a sub-
>>>>> recent level that is overgrown by vegetationor in the process of
>>>>> becoming overgrown, and (3) anold island surface with a strong soil
>>>>> profile. This is thegeneral situation from island to island. The
>>>>> section in Fig. 3A is an actual levelled profile from the island of
>>>>> Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll. The mean sea level Fig. 1. Sea level curve
>>>>> for the last 5000 years for the Maldives. Black dots = past sea level
>>>>> positions dated by radiocarbon (AMS), greydots = dates by Woodroffe
>>>>> (1992) with uncertain relation to sea level, open circles = dates by
>>>>> Woodroffe (1992) without closer relation to aformer sea level. The sea
>>>>> level curve is oscillating with four levels above the present level; +
>>>>> 1.1�1.2 m at 3900 BP, + 0.1�0.2 m at 2700 BP,+ 0.5�0.6 m at 1000�800
>>>>> BP and + 0.2�0.3 m at AD 1900�1970. The islands have been inhabited,
>>>>> at least, since 1500 BP.N.-A. M�rner et al. / Global and Planetary
>>>>> Change 40 (2004) 177�182178
>>>>> Page 3
>>>>> seems closely to approximate the surface of a beachrock cut into a
>>>>> flat surface (a rock cut platform). TheHTL is at + 0.45 m, the storm
>>>>> level at + 0.9�0.8 m,the sub-recent level is at + 1.2 m, and the old
>>>>> islandsurface at + 1.45 m. This seems to indicate that theisland
>>>>> surface was built up at a 60 cm higher sea leveland that the sub-
>>>>> recent level was formed at a 30 cmhigher sea level.A higher sea level
>>>>> of about + 60 cm in LateHolocene times is recorded in sandy environment
>>>>> (e.g. Hulhudhoo in the Baa Atoll) as well as inbeach-rock environment
>>>>> (e.g. Fulhudhoo in the Guid-hoo Atoll).The sub-recent level seems, in
>>>>> general, to havebeen at about + 30 cm (in sandy section of
>>>>> theHulhodhoo as well as in the beach-rock coast ofFulhudhoo).The most
>>>>> important and interesting fact is the sealevel fall of about 20�30 cm
>>>>> between the sub-recentlevel and the present level. The morphology is
>>>>> clear,but it does not provide any exact dating. From theshape and
>>>>> freshness, one would assume that the sealevel fall took place in the
>>>>> last 50 years, or so.2.2. Sailing routes in the Vavu Atoll Fig. 3B
>>>>> illustrates the batymetric situation of the Thinadhoo�Felidhoo area on
>>>>> the eastern side of theVavu Atoll. Here, local people report that the
>>>>> dhonis(local fishing boats) could pass straight across theMaduvvaree
>>>>> Falhu thila (with on old reef surface nolonger growing) in the 1970s
>>>>> and early 1980s, whilstthey in the last 15 years have had to make a
>>>>> detouraround the thila, because it is now too shallow. Thethila has
>>>>> not grown, so it must be the sea that has fallen.This fits perfectly
>>>>> well with the island morphologyas discussed above. In this case,
>>>>> however, the sealevel fall is dated to the 1970s to early 1980s.2.3.
>>>>> The ��reef woman�� at LhosfushiIn 1996, a skeleton was found ��in the
>>>>> reef�� close tothe islands of Lhosfushi�Garaidhoo which becameknown as
>>>>> ��the reef woman�� from Lhosfushi (Rasheed, 1996). We recently
>>>>> undertook a careful investigation of the site with respect of
>>>>> stratigraphy,morphology and depositional environment (Fig. 3C).The
>>>>> skeleton lies in an indurated beach sand. It is Fig. 2. The Maldives
>>>>> in the central Indian Ocean consists of some1200 individual islands
>>>>> grouped into about 20 larger atolls. Dotsindicate islands studied with
>>>>> respect to present to sub-recent sealevel changes.N.-A. M�rner et
>>>>> al. / Global and Planetary Change 40 (2004) 177�182179
>>>>> Page 4
>>>>> a beach-rockgrades into an on-shore sand, now cemented. Thesurface of
>>>>> the on-shore sand lies about 70 cm abovethe present on-shore sand,
>>>>> indicating a higher sea levelat that time. Remnants of the beach-rock
>>>>> reach some40�50 cm above present mean sea level. The mainpart of the
>> ...
>>
>> read more �
>