...'08 Beijing Olympics/Spielberg vs. '36 Hitler Olympics/Leni Riefenstahl
Jonathan
Hollywood blockbusters, is the 'artistic director' for the
upcoming Olympics in Beijing this August. Not unlike
the roal played by the film maker Leni Riefenstahl
in the '36 Berlin Olympics.
His job is to do nothing less than help ...legitimize.. the
largest and most repressive government in the history
of the human race. He is working hand-in-hand with
the Chinese Communist Party to help continue the
indefinite enslavement of a FIFTH of the human race.
China today is a combination of searing political
repression, with a market system that practices the
most corrupt and abusive form of capitalism imaginable.
Without democratic checks and balances, China's free
market is only free for those in power and money.
A grand party, a champagne event, where over a
billion people are herded, sheep-like, passed banners
reading "One World One Dream" and into a stadium
with no exits. Just work until they die.
Even Orwell would blush at the spectacle.
What would we think of famous producers of the past if
they'd been an key part of Hitler's Berlin Olympics of '36?
If, say, Frank Capra had spent months working
with the Nazis in '36 Berlin, would we now remember
him for all his great movies?
No, he would be remembered only as the Hollywood
director that helped Hitler. Pleading that working
the Olympics gave him influence with the policies
of Hitler would fall on deaf ears, just as it will
with Spielberg and his failed efforts with Darfur.
Stephen Spielberg is about to make such a timeless
mistake.
Legitimizing the Chinese Communist Party is nothing
less than a crime against humanity.
Stephen Spielberg is ...right now....substantially
contributing to the greatest crime against humanity
since the holocaust.
This will be his legacy and professional epitaph.
We should make sure of this.
s
rst0wxyz
create chaos and dissension for the Chinese government.
demor...@aol.com
> A grand party, a champagne event, where over a
> billion people are herded, sheep-like, passed banners
> reading "One World One Dream" and into a stadium
> with no exits. Just work until they die.
There is only room for One Dream in this big world? Let me guess, it
is the Communists' one dream?
-----
A special day: CCTV-5 changes name to The Olympic Channel.
rst0wxyz
From this video, doesn't this give you some idea what China is like
today? In America, she would have been dragged away long ago. Does
this video indicate "where over a billion people are herded, sheep-
like, passed banners reading "One World One Dream" and into a stadium
with no exits. Just work until they die."?
It seems to me China has more freedom than America today!!
In the video, she's angry because her husband, the #1 sports
braodcaster in China, has a girlfriend. She was a local broadcaster
in Beijing, and was fired after this outburst.
Revision
hope that it stays in power. The whole society is based on corruption and
fraud. The people have no social contract nor regard for their fellow
citizens. If the Communist gov't falls the result will not be a free
society but rather a social catastrophe. The yammering gossips and liars
outnumber the sensible humans by thousands to one. Totalitarian rule works
best for them.
Perhaps Spielberg will wave to you from his plane while you are flipping
burgers.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
sir.jp...@neuf.fr
> The Chinese government is a sorry organization, however I think we should
> hope that it stays in power. The whole society is based on corruption and
> fraud. The people have no social contract nor regard for their fellow
> citizens. If the Communist gov't falls the result will not be a free
> society but rather a social catastrophe. The yammering gossips and liars
> outnumber the sensible humans by thousands to one. Totalitarian rule works
> best for them.
>
> Perhaps Spielberg will wave to you from his plane while you are flipping
> burgers.
>
regained the pride that Great Nation fully deserved; Pride lost in the
past Boxer Wars, Opium Wars & 2nd WW invasion
Further :
QUOTE
http://www.chinaview.cn/index.htm
Chinese president stresses reform, innovation in New Year's Day
speech
Hu Jintao on Tuesday once again stressed the importance of reform and
innovation so as to implement scientific concept of development and
promote social harmony in 2008.
etc
UNQUOTE
Although I am perfectly aware of the situations you describe, I am an
unconditional admirers of China 's achievements and wish I could do
further than this in bringing to China innovative approach to Water
resources and the taping of still unknown mineral richness lying just
a few cable distance from its coast & a few fathom below indeed. I
hope further the True Geology will be one day taught in China with all
the benefit a clear intelligence of our real History and History of
the Earth can give a most admirable hard working & intelligent
population
...in this line I hope China develop soon the IMMENSE potential of the
Yarlung Tsampo Gorges, with estimated Energy output in my view 10
times greater than the 3 Gorges Dam. This will be a real asset onto
the fight against the Global Warming, and would I have the opportunity
to meet The Hon. Hu Jintao, this is what I would suggest to him to
act upon with some priority attached to it
With best wishes to you Jonathan for the New Year, as well as to China
at large indeed. China does not need detractors, it needs people to
help it indeed. When you consider the state of China compared to
Africa say, the starting point being the same, you can realise the
superior intelligence displayed by those great people who in so little
time have not only caught up with Western Societies and overtaken them
already in many fields. It demonstrates further the complete waste of
money spent on the Negroes Nations aka poor Nations since in a century
hence they will still be wasting the enormous potential of Africa.
The Chance of China are indeed the Chinese & the Curse of Africa the
Negroes ....So evident Dr Watson !
Tian Zi
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Discoverer of Telfer, Nifty & Kintyre mines in the Great Sandy Desert
Exploration Geologist & Offshore Consultant
Founder of the True Geology
~ Ignorance is the Cosmic Sin, the One never Forgiven ~
for background info.
http://www.tnet.com.au/~warrigal/grule.html
http://users.indigo.net.au/don/tel/index.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/turcaud.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s28534.htm
rst0wxyz
> The Chinese government is a sorry organization,
There it goes again, more CIA brainwashed yanks spewing anti_China
propaganda.
> however I think we should
> hope that it stays in power. The whole society is based on corruption and
> fraud.
Like Spiro Agnew? the Richard Nixon's VP? and Richard Nixon - "I am
not a crook", Like Enron? Worldcom? ...
> The people have no social contract nor regard for their fellow
> citizens.
Do most Americans have social contact? or "regard for their fellow
citizens"? What part of the country do you live in?
> If the Communist gov't falls the result will not be a free
> society but rather a social catastrophe.
You can be assured the CCP will not lose control in China. They got
the guns, and the power. We have seen it on 6/4/1989, in what we
called the Tianenmen Massacre.
> The yammering gossips and liars
> outnumber the sensible humans by thousands to one.
Haven't we seen enough lies that led us to war in Iraq? George Bush's
lies certainly outnumber the sensible humans by thousands to one.
> Totalitarian rule works
> best for them.
Maybe we should call it "totalitarian democracy". Their leaders are
certainly doing their jobs better than ours.
>
> Perhaps Spielberg will wave to you from his plane while you are flipping
> burgers.
You are talking about America, of course. They don't flip burgers in
China. They cook rice with modern rice cookers.
Jonathan
<demor...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:928e2380-3e7f-4b47...@l6g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 2, 1:47 pm, "Jonathan" <wr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> A grand party, a champagne event, where over a
> billion people are herded, sheep-like, passed banners
> reading "One World One Dream" and into a stadium
> with no exits. Just work until they die.
There is only room for One Dream in this big world? Let me guess, it
is the Communists' one dream?
Yes
http://en.beijing2008.cn/spirit/beijing2008/graphic/n214068253.shtml
Jonathan
> A special day: CCTV-5 changes name to The Olympic Channel.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwHhRcRDAN0
>From this video, doesn't this give you some idea what China is like
>today?
>It seems to me China has more freedom than America today!!
These show China in a different light.
You should get a job in the private sector.
Soon your CCP paycheck will disappear
when China goes the route of the Soviet
Union and break into a dozen new countries.
A dozen new countries that mostly try to become
like Taiwan. Democracy and freedom always win
in the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkf2u1Umzi4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LPksYo2WUQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8KSN_Xdak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZXvazdX3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keuE5aRkppc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_gsIIQOBsY
s
Jonathan
>> Perhaps Spielberg will wave to you from his plane while you are flipping
>> burgers.
>
>China brought a billion Chinese back from misery & destitution. It has
>regained the pride that Great Nation fully deserved; Pride lost in the
>past Boxer Wars, Opium Wars & 2nd WW invasion
Hitler also brought the German people prosperity.
But it was short-lived, as dictatorships have this
horrible habit of starting wars and going down
in a blaze of misery.
A rigid control structure combined with a changing
evolving populace guarantees the two camps drift apart
over time, building internal stress, with conflct and
wars inevitable.
In a democracy the two camps evolve towards
each other over time, just the opposite.
The only question becomes when will the CCP fall.
Sooner is always better than later.
The Olympics provide the ideal conditions to put
an end to the CCP, as the entire country and world
will be connected together at once. These are the first
true internet games, where everything is online.
Something will happen during the Olympics, and
it won't be covered up or contained. We could
easily see a dozen Tianenman Square size
protests emerge at once.
s
rst0wxyz
> > A special day: CCTV-5 changes name to The Olympic Channel.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwHhRcRDAN0
> >From this video, doesn't this give you some idea what China is like
> >today?
> >It seems to me China has more freedom than America today!!
>
> These show China in a different light.
> You should get a job in the private sector.
No need for me to get any kind of job as I got easy money from Uncle
Sam and a company that work for Uncle Sam with big military contracts.
> Soon your CCP paycheck will disappear
> when China goes the route of the Soviet
> Union and break into a dozen new countries.
Not a chance. Chinese leaders are not stupid like the old USSR
leaders trying to follow the American ways. The CCP will not go
away. They will control China for a long long time.
>
> A dozen new countries that mostly try to become
> like Taiwan. Democracy and freedom always win
> in the end.
Taiwan is a dying island. Even the smallest of nations are switching
to Mainland China. Even their manufacturing facilities have moved to
Mainland China. There is no hope for Taiwan.
fyf...@gmail.com
What makes you think China is that unfree and that unconnected with
the rest of the world, and that people are so uninformed, at this
time?
It is fair to say that as long as you don't give the police trouble,
you are quite free to do what you
want to do here in China. But then again, what makes you think that
progress can be brought about by giving
police the trouble?
One of the major differences between the US and China politically is
the level of tolerance of political dissent. This has something to do
with the traditional culture China has been in for years. Look at
Taiwan. It took so many years of street fighting and fighting in the
government assembly hall before some kind of 'democratic behavior' is
observed.
CharlesLiu
> >> Perhaps Spielberg will wave to you from his plane while you are flipping
> >> burgers.
>
> >China brought a billion Chinese back from misery & destitution. It has
> >regained the pride that Great Nation fully deserved; Pride lost in the
> >past Boxer Wars, Opium Wars & 2nd WW invasion
>
> Hitler also brought the German people prosperity.
A more apt comparison with the 1936 Olympics would be America's
hosting of 2007 Junior Olympics.
Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
Rice are responsible for that mess.)
Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
Most folks here ain't even Chinese, given the fact it is an English
language group.
Scott Hedrick
"CharlesLiu" <chli...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
>China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
>Rice are responsible for that mess.)
Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
>Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
Because the People's Non-Republic of China continues to abuse its citizen's
rights in ways that makes the Bush Administration look like rank amateurs.
>Most folks here ain't even Chinese, given the fact it is an English
>language group.
Most folks in the world aren't Chinese.
Scott Hedrick
"rst0wxyz" <rst0...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fd37564e-11e2-48a0...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>You can be assured the CCP will not lose control in China. They got
>the guns, and the power. We have seen it on 6/4/1989, in what we
>called the Tianenmen Massacre.
Gee, isn't that just "more CIA brainwashed yanks spewing anti_China
propaganda"?
>Maybe we should call it "totalitarian democracy". Their leaders are
>certainly doing their jobs better than ours.
If your leaders are doing a poor job, then come to the United States, whose
leaders continue to do a great job.
>You are talking about America, of course. They don't flip burgers in
>China. They cook rice with modern rice cookers.
Made in Taiwan, of course.
rst0wxyz
> "rst0wxyz" <rst0w...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fd37564e-11e2-48a0...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >You can be assured the CCP will not lose control in China. They got
> >the guns, and the power. We have seen it on 6/4/1989, in what we
> >called the Tianenmen Massacre.
>
> Gee, isn't that just "more CIA brainwashed yanks spewing anti_China
> propaganda"?
It's a fact, the CCP will not lose control in China for a long time.
>
> >Maybe we should call it "totalitarian democracy". Their leaders are
> >certainly doing their jobs better than ours.
>
> If your leaders are doing a poor job, then come to the United States, whose
> leaders continue to do a great job.
I am in the United States and have voted for the last 48 years.
>
> >You are talking about America, of course. They don't flip burgers in
> >China. They cook rice with modern rice cookers.
>
> Made in Taiwan, of course.
Have you seen the "Made in Taiwan" label lately? Almost everything is
"Made in China" today.
rst0wxyz
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
Oh!! yes, and Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico,...
>
> >China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> >Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
>
> >Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
>
> Because the People's Non-Republic of China continues to abuse its citizen's
> rights in ways that makes the Bush Administration look like rank amateurs.
>
> >Most folks here ain't even Chinese, given the fact it is an English
> >language group.
>
> Most folks in the world aren't Chinese.
A quarter is big enough.
Andre Lieven
> On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> > I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
>
> Oh!! yes, and Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico,...
Um, Texas asked to come in. Doofus. Oh, and the others weren't
sovereign
nations, as Tibet was, before China committed an act of aggression
upon it.
> > >China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> > >Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> > Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
>
> > >Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
>
> > Because the People's Non-Republic of China continues to abuse its citizen's
> > rights in ways that makes the Bush Administration look like rank amateurs.
>
> > >Most folks here ain't even Chinese, given the fact it is an English
> > >language group.
>
> > Most folks in the world aren't Chinese.
>
> A quarter is big enough.
That changes Mr Hendrik's point, not at all. Thank you for your
latest concession.
Andre
rst0wxyz
> On Jan 2, 12:46 pm, rst0wxyz <rst0w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Oh!! yes, and Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico,...
>
> Um, Texas asked to come in. Doofus.
Oh, yes!! After the United States encouraged people to go to Texas
and occupied Mexican land.
> Oh, and the others weren't
> sovereign
> nations, as Tibet was, before China committed an act of aggression
> upon it.
Why don't study the history of Tibet and see how independent Tibet
was. It is only in the minds of Americans encouraged by the CIA to
create chaos and dissension for China.
The Dalai Lama is nothing but a world beggar today suppported by the
American CIA.
demor...@aol.com
> On Jan 2, 12:04 pm, Andre Lieven <andrelie...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 2, 12:46 pm, rst0wxyz <rst0w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Oh!! yes, and Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico,...
>
> > Um, Texas asked to come in. Doofus.
>
> Oh, yes!! After the United States encouraged people to go to Texas
> and occupied Mexican land.
Who encouraged YOU to go to California and Arizona and occupy "Mexican
land"? Did you ask the Mexican government if you can live there?
Mexico took the land from the Native Americans. The U.S. liberated the
inhabitants from their "serfdom".
> > Oh, and the others weren't
> > sovereign
> > nations, as Tibet was, before China committed an act of aggression
> > upon it.
>
> Why don't study the history of Tibet and see how independent Tibet
> was.
In 821, China and Tibet ended almost 200 years of fighting with a
treaty engraved on three stone pillars, one of which still stands in
front of the Jokhang cathedral in Lhasa.
The treaty reads in part: Both Tibet and China shall keep the country
and frontiers of which they are now possessed. The whole region to the
East of that being the country of Great China and the whole region to
the West being assuredly the country of Great Tibet, from either side
there shall be no hostile invasion, and no seizure of territory... and
in order that this agreement establishing a great era when Tibetans
shall be happy in Tibet and Chinese shall be happy in China shall
never be changed, the Three Jewels, the body of Saints, the sun and
the moon, planets and stars have been invoked as witness.
The three stone pillars were erected, one outside the Chinese
Emperor's palace, one on the border between the two countries, and one
in Lhasa.
http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/occu.html
bmo...@nyx.net
> On Jan 2, 5:08 pm, "Jonathan" <wr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > >> Perhaps Spielberg will wave to you from his plane while you are flipping
> > >> burgers.
>
> > >China brought a billion Chinese back from misery & destitution. It has
> > >regained the pride that Great Nation fully deserved; Pride lost in the
> > >past Boxer Wars, Opium Wars & 2nd WW invasion
>
> > Hitler also brought the German people prosperity.
>
> A more apt comparison with the 1936 Olympics would be America's
> hosting of 2007 Junior Olympics.
What a typically moronic, rabid US-hating statement. You give the left
a bad name.
>
> Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
> China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
Your hypocrisy stinks. Why don't you go back to stalking Canadian
politicians?
> Most folks here ain't even Chinese, given the fact it is an English
> language group.
Stop lying. There are plenty of Chinese here. This kind of dishonesty
permeates almost every argument you make here, and you don't do your
causes a bit of good with that kind of behavior.
>
> > But it was short-lived, as dictatorships have this
> > horrible habit of starting wars and going down
> > in a blaze of misery.
>
> > A rigid control structure combined with a changing
> > evolving populace guarantees the two camps drift apart
> > over time, building internal stress, with conflct and
> > wars inevitable.
>
> > In a democracy the two camps evolve towards
> > each other over time, just the opposite.
>
> > The only question becomes when will the CCP fall.
> > Sooner is always better than later.
>
> > The Olympics provide the ideal conditions to put
> > an end to the CCP, as the entire country and world
> > will be connected together at once. These are the first
> > true internet games, where everything is online.
>
> > Something will happen during the Olympics, and
> > it won't be covered up or contained. We could
> > easily see a dozen Tianenman Square size
> > protests emerge at once.
>
> > s- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
bmo...@nyx.net
>
> news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
>
> >China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> >Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
In Charles' one dimensional world everything is Bush's fault. He's a
known idiot on s.c.c.
Jonathan
<fyf...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4fe746f4-f1d0-404a-ba8c-
>What makes you think China is that unfree and that unconnected with
>the rest of the world, and that people are so uninformed, at this
>time?
>It is fair to say that as long as you don't give the police trouble,
>you are quite free to do what you
>want to do here in China.
Legitimacy only flows from the people.
This Olympics essentially legitimizes dictatorships in the
eyes of the international community.
That is absolutely unacceptable.
It's one thing to be pragmatic and accept a benign
dictatorship while transitioning to democracy.
But to say dictatorships are legitimate?
These Olympics become political the minute
Beijing was awarded the games. We need
to make sure the winner of these games
is...freedom.
NOT repression.
s
s
Dragon
> <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4fe746f4-f1d0-404a-ba8c-
> >What makes you think China is that unfree and that unconnected with
> >the rest of the world, and that people are so uninformed, at this
> >time?
> >It is fair to say that as long as you don't give the police trouble,
> >you are quite free to do what you
> >want to do here in China.
>
> Legitimacy only flows from the people.
>
> This Olympics essentially legitimizes dictatorships in the
> eyes of the international community.
>
> That is absolutely unacceptable.
>
>
Who are you to dictate what the Chinese people should or should not
have?
Shove your "democracy" and "legitimacy" up your arse, and leave us
alone - we want no part of it!
fyf...@gmail.com
> <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4fe746f4-f1d0-404a-ba8c-
If the Chinese government were a dictatorship, the previous Fatty
Ziang would not have stepped down.
>
> s
>
> s
Scott Hedrick
"Dragon" <dra...@newyork.com> wrote in message
news:99233077-0d30-4765...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>Shove your "democracy" and "legitimacy" up your arse, and leave us
>alone - we want no part of it!
And as long as that's the case Taiwan will remain separate.
Jonathan
"Dragon" <dra...@newyork.com> wrote in message news:99233077-0d30-4765...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Legitimacy only flows from the people.
>
>> This Olympics essentially legitimizes dictatorships in the
>> eyes of the international community.
>
>> That is absolutely unacceptable.
>
>
>Who are you to dictate what the Chinese people should or should not
>have?
It's an inalienable right. But maybe the Chinese people should be
asked what form of government they choose.
Oh, that's right, it's against the law to ask them.
I wonder why?
>Shove your "democracy" and "legitimacy" up your arse, and leave us
>alone - we want no part of it!
You don't understand America or a free market democracy.
Like a healthy forest, they relentlessly fill every niche.
In fact their specialty is moving into damaged or
weak systems.
America will never stop until every govt rules by the
/consent/ of the governed. Anything short of that is
by definition a criminal government.
s
Neil Gerace
> Stephen Spielberg, the celebrated director of numerous
> Hollywood blockbusters, is the 'artistic director' for the
> upcoming Olympics in Beijing this August. Not unlike
> the roal played by the film maker Leni Riefenstahl
> in the '36 Berlin Olympics.
Except Leni probably wasn't Jewish ....
bmo...@nyx.net
Nor is Spielberg Tibetan, or a Falun Gong member, or anything like
that...
J.Venning
news:AOefj.32998$k27....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
"Dragon" <dra...@newyork.com> wrote in message
news:99233077-0d30-4765...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>have?
>>
>It's an inalienable right.
>
J.
fyf...@gmail.com
> "Dragon" <dra...@newyork.com> wrote in messagenews:99233077-0d30-4765...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
You don't even know what you are talking about. One of the important
pre-requisites to the implementation of democracy the American style
is the culture of people in which people learn to make their own
decisions. Without this pre-requisite, you will end up with nothing
but chaos.
America never stops supporting dictators too if what the dictators do
is in the national interests of the US.
fyf...@gmail.com
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
>
> >China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> >Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
>
> >Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
>
> Because the People's Non-Republic of China continues to abuse its citizen's
> rights in ways that makes the Bush Administration look like rank amateurs.
I wonder if a comparison is valid. The citizens' rights in a nation
are very much tied in with the development of social infrastructure at
a particular point. That said, China still needs to speed up the
liberalization of her political atmosphere. But to suggest that China
has scored so much economically for the past 30 years without a good
degree of political development is unsound.
rst0wxyz
> <fyfp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4fe746f4-f1d0-404a-ba8c-
> >What makes you think China is that unfree and that unconnected with
> >the rest of the world, and that people are so uninformed, at this
> >time?
> >It is fair to say that as long as you don't give the police trouble,
> >you are quite free to do what you
> >want to do here in China.
>
> Legitimacy only flows from the people.
Does the people know what is right and what is wrong, Jonathan?
Aren't you putting trust in the people that has no interest in the
government, and George Bush dictates and the U.S. Congress cheers him
on with "Might makes right. We have the might. We have the right".
Isn't this what make dictatorship?
>
> This Olympics essentially legitimizes dictatorships in the
> eyes of the international community.
We certainly legitimize dictatorship in the form of George Bush with
American Congress AND the American people's consent.
>
> That is absolutely unacceptable.
Yes, say so in the U.S.
>
> It's one thing to be pragmatic and accept a benign
> dictatorship while transitioning to democracy.
> But to say dictatorships are legitimate?
>
> These Olympics become political the minute
> Beijing was awarded the games. We need
> to make sure the winner of these games
> is...freedom.
>
> NOT repression.
Jonathan, you're nothing but a CIA mouthpiece with brainwashed mind of
American propaganda.
>
> s
>
> s
rst0wxyz
Yeah, I can see the separation. Almost all of Taiwan's manufacturing
is in Mainland China today, and Taiwanese families are moving back to
Mainland China to live. Taiwan has become more and more "irrelevant"
as LT Lee said.
rst0wxyz
> "Dragon" <dra...@newyork.com> wrote in messagenews:99233077-0d30-4765...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> On Jan 4, 2:28 am, "Jonathan" <wr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> Legitimacy only flows from the people.
>
> >> This Olympics essentially legitimizes dictatorships in the
> >> eyes of the international community.
>
> >> That is absolutely unacceptable.
>
> >Who are you to dictate what the Chinese people should or should not
> >have?
>
> It's an inalienable right. But maybe the Chinese people should be
> asked what form of government they choose.
With China's uneducated rural people and many city dwellers, the CIA
can create chaos and dissension easily with a few million dollars and
buy whatever candidate they want in office. China will not use the
election to select officials. The "proven record" concept is what
China need as they have now.
>
> Oh, that's right, it's against the law to ask them.
>
> I wonder why?
Because people like you and the CIA, and the American government want
China to fail miserably because they are not following America's
footsteps. America is no haven for happiness. Many officials are
just as corrupt and bad as in China. Many commit suicides in this
country. Many criminals and killings on the streets of America. Is
this a model for democracy? Maybe there is a better system.
>
> >Shove your "democracy" and "legitimacy" up your arse, and leave us
> >alone - we want no part of it!
>
> You don't understand America or a free market democracy.
> Like a healthy forest, they relentlessly fill every niche.
> In fact their specialty is moving into damaged or
> weak systems.
Maybe you are just too brainwashed with American propaganda to see the
light.
>
> America will never stop until every govt rules by the
> /consent/ of the governed. Anything short of that is
> by definition a criminal government.
Many countries are studying China's model as a form of government. Of
course, America's job is to make sure they will not succeed.
>
> s
Ira IRa IRA Humperdink MD
do it our way, or no way at all!
On Jan 4, 7:08 pm, "Jonathan" <wr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "Dragon" <dra...@newyork.com> wrote in messagenews:99233077-0d30-4765...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
bmo...@nyx.net
What are some of these "many countries"?
> Of
> course, America's job is to make sure they will not succeed.
>
>
>
>
>
> > s- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
rst0wxyz
<markdeme...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> that's it, buddy! tell these chinks who's boss round here. either they
> do it our way, or no way at all!
Jonathan doesn't know what to do or think himself. The puppet master
is on vacation.
Lpro...@aol.com
> On Jan 2, 1:47 pm, "Jonathan" <wr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > A grand party, a champagne event, where over a
> > billion people are herded, sheep-like, passed banners
> > reading "One World One Dream" and into a stadium
> > with no exits. Just work until they die.
>
> There is only room for One Dream in this big world? Let me guess, it
> is the Communists' one dream?
>
> -----
>
> A special day: CCTV-5 changes name to The Olympic Channel.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwHhRcRDAN0
The video shows how open China is today. To the officials, the speaker
seems more of an annoyance then somebody spoiling the entire event.
Good job for not dragging her off violently. That was probably what
she wanted to attract attention. FLG also tried to disrupt the Beijing
ROSE parade but failed. The Beijing parade even won the Theme award.
THe reason why FLG fail is that they themselves are so biase to the
extreme. They do not even try to be balance. It is all hatred. Its all
about loyalty to just one guy (Forever). Its about them being
brainwash. So it is indeed a cult.
CharlesLiu
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
Tse, tse, finger pointing ain't gonna get the Native Americans off our
back.
> >China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> >Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
I'll give you that - then why blame China?
> >Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
>
> Because the People's Non-Republic of China continues to abuse its citizen's
> rights in ways that makes the Bush Administration look like rank amateurs.
Right, as if those tortured in our "Black Sites" live better, why
don't we ask them? Opps can't.
Lpro...@aol.com
People or peasant power bought the CPC to power. Thus it is the
peasants that gave the CPC the Mandate of heaven to rule all under
heaven. If the CPC fails the people, this mandate will be taken away.
> This Olympics essentially legitimizes dictatorships in the
> eyes of the international community.
Heaven smile on the Middle Kingdom and Beijing won the Olympic and
para-olympic fair and square ... by democratic vote.
>
> That is absolutely unacceptable.
Only to a small group of pro "do all you like unlimited freedom
without responsibility" people.
> It's one thing to be pragmatic and accept a benign
> dictatorship while transitioning to democracy.
> But to say dictatorships are legitimate?
Dictatorship are long gone in the Middle Kingdom. All China leaders
are limited to several years via indirect election.
> These Olympics become political the minute
> Beijing was awarded the games. We need
> to make sure the winner of these games
> is...freedom.
Olympic and the Para-olympic is non-political. That is always the
sprit.
> NOT repression.
Not "Unlimited freedom without responsility" too.
Lpro...@aol.com
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
have the support of the slaves. These slaves or serfs literally let in
the PLA. 90% of Tibetan were former slaves and serfs serving people
like Dalai Lama. Today Tibetan is more open and more prosperous then
ever. Tibetan culture is florishing throughtout China. Do not think
that all Tibetans support the Dalai Lama.
rst0wxyz
Cuba, Venezuela, countries in Africa, South America...
rst0wxyz
Emperor Kangxi Conquered Tibet in 1720 and Tibet was part of China
since then.
demor...@aol.com
> Olympic and the Para-olympic is non-political. That is always the
> sprit.
Xinhua News Agency
February 9, 1980
As the voices become louder against the holding of the Olympic Games
in Moscow, the Soviet authorities have time and again declared that
"politics should not be mixed with sports", in an attempt to confuse
the minds of the people of the Soviet Union and elsewhere in the
world.
In a statement issued on January 31, the Olympic committee of the USSR
said: "loyal to the ideals of the Olympic movement, the Olympic
committee of the USSR condemns the attempts to use sport as a means of
political pressure." It continued by saying that certain people wanted
to "undermine" the Olympic movement and that the "hostile campaign"
should be given a "resolute rebuff". The Soviet authorities tried to
give people the impression that the Olympic movement had nothing to do
with politics and that those opposed to the holding of the Olympic
Games in Moscow want to undermine the Olympic movement. However, they
failed to mention what the ideals of the Olympics really are. They
have no courage to state the fact that people decided to boycott the
Moscow Olympic Games as a protest against the Soviet invasion of
Afghanistan. This is how they separate politics from sports.
In their history of 84 years, the Olympic Games were never a sports
gathering with emphasis on competition alone. The Olympic charter
clearly stipulates the education of young people through sport as its
aim, "thereby helping to build a better and more peaceful world" and
"to spread the Olympic principles throughout the world thereby
creating international goodwill". The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
flouts the aim of the Olympics and threatens world peace sought by the
Olympic movement. It is, therefore, quite natural for Muhammad Ali as
a champion of peace to voice his indignation. He declared, "ifyou
believe in freedom you are naturally offended when a country like
Russia invades a free country."
Just imagine how the sportsmen hailing from various countries and
loyal to the ideals of the Olympics would feel if an aggressor like
the Soviet Union whose ands are stained with the blood of the Afghan
people is allowed to host the Olympic Games whose aim is peace and
friendship, if the leader of this aggressor nation is allowed to
declare the Olympic Games open?
It is distasteful even to think that the Soviet social-imperialists
who are overrunning the territories of other countries and pursuing
expansionism everywhere should host the Olympic Games dedicated to the
"creation of a better and more tranquil world". Who would believe that
these social-imperialists have been spending huge sums on preparations
for the Olympic Games just to make the Games a "sports festival"? The
"book of the party activist" published in the Soviet Union this year
says: "the decision to hold the Olympic Games in Moscow become
convincing evidence of the correctness of the foreign policy course of
our country." The Soviet leadership has all along been striving to
channel the summer Olympic Games into a course which would serve
Soviet hegemonism well. The Berlin Olympic Games of 1936 was later
dismissed as "Nazi Olympics", now, the Soviet leadership has clearly
put its own political stamp on the Games even before they actually
begin in Moscow.
Chen
>
> - Show quoted text -
When Chinese people came from Africa, they lived at Tibet fefore
anyone else. Tibetan are Chinese. They are the same status as
Cantonese, Hongkong and Taiwanese. They are all Chinese.
rst0wxyz
How do you know that, Chen? and how many years ago?
bmo...@nyx.net
Got any other info (e.g. a cite) on that? Anything other than your
assertion?
bmo...@nyx.net
> On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> > I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
>
> The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
> have the support of the slaves. These slaves or serfs literally let in
> the PLA.
Got any evidence for that?
rst0wxyz
Past newspaper articles. Can't remember which one. There will be
more coming. Just keep your eyes open.
bmo...@nyx.net
Hmmmm. A Google search yields nothing indicating that many other
countries are studying the Chinese government as a model.
rst0wxyz
Keep your eyes open on the daily newspaper.
Chen
>
> - Show quoted text -
That was report from scientific research in DNA. DNA is legal
acceptable rule by law. They are all brother in blood.
bmo...@nyx.net
You're talking cock, obviously.
> DNA is legal
> acceptable rule by law. They are all brother in blood.- Hide quoted text -
rst0wxyz
Yes, DNA has indicated we all, whites, blacks and yellow, came from
Africa. Chinese and Tibetan are Mongoloid race. There is no
information that Tibetan were Chinese or the other way around.
Chen
>
> - Show quoted text -
The information is obtained from Y chromosome.
bmo...@nyx.net
Scott Hedrick
"CharlesLiu" <chli...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c410f63e-b24e-4173...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
>Tse, tse, finger pointing ain't gonna get the Native Americans off our
>back.
They're not on my back- I am a Native American, born in Indiana. What have
you done to us? In any case, it still doesn't change the *fact* of China's
invasion of Tibet.
> >China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> >Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
>I'll give you that - then why blame China?
I didn't blame China. If there is blame, it's Bhutto's.
> >Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
>
> Because the People's Non-Republic of China continues to abuse its
> citizen's
> rights in ways that makes the Bush Administration look like rank amateurs.
>Right, as if those tortured in our "Black Sites" live better, why
>don't we ask them? Opps can't.
"Our"? And how does any action by any other nation change or justify what
China does to its own citizens?
Scott Hedrick
<Lpro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cae7d3ff-0f8c-4acd...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> If the CPC fails the people, this mandate will be taken away.
Bwahahahahahahaha! More likely, the CPC will pave the streets with Chinese
blood as it struggles to maintain power. If the people really supported the
government, then the government wouldn't work so hard to block outside
information.
> Heaven smile on the Middle Kingdom and Beijing won the Olympic and
> para-olympic fair and square ... by democratic vote.
I happen to agree with this. I don't see that China did anything excessively
improper to win the vote, and I don't see that China is going to use the
Olympics as a political tool any more than any other nation.
> Only to a small group of pro "do all you like unlimited freedom
> without responsibility" people.
There is no such thing as freedom without responsibility. It's a shame the
Democrats haven't learned that. It's a shame that China equates
"responsibility" with "obeying the state".
> Dictatorship are long gone in the Middle Kingdom. All China leaders
> are limited to several years via indirect election.
Unless the Party wants them to stay longer.
> Olympic and the Para-olympic is non-political. That is always the
> sprit.
And *never* reality.
Scott Hedrick
<Lpro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:80162e2b-e790-4609...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
>The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
>have the support of the slaves.
Tibet was an independent country that was forcefully annexed by China.
If China had the best interests of the Tibetan people at heart, it would
*leave*. The situation in Tibet has been stable for some time now, and if it
isn't, the Tibetans are not to blame.
> Do not think that all Tibetans support the Dalai Lama.
Certainly not the one the Chinese government has forced on them.
If Tibet was truly free and prosperous, then the real Dalai Lama would be
permitted to come and go as he pleases *unharmed*.
rst0wxyz
> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:80162e2b-e790-4609...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> > I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
> >The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
> >have the support of the slaves.
>
> Tibet was an independent country that was forcefully annexed by China.
Bah, humbug!!
Lpro...@aol.com
> > On Jan 5, 1:29 am, Lproud...@aol.com wrote:
> > Olympic and the Para-olympic is non-political. That is always the
> > sprit.
> On Jan 5, 6:47 am, demoris...@aol.com wrote:>
> Xinhua News Agency
> February 9, 1980
>
> As the voices become louder against the holding of the Olympic Games
> in Moscow, the Soviet authorities have time and again declared that
> "politics should not be mixed with sports", in an attempt to confuse
> the minds of the people of the Soviet Union and elsewhere in the
> world.
Sport should ALWAYS be non-political. Period. Boycott of Olympic or
the Para-Olympic benefitts only the politicians not the athletes or
para-athletes who spend years and years of hard work. Do you think
you should also start to boycott all sports events in US too since US
invaded Iraq ?????? If you start to bring in politics into sports
where will it lead to.
Lpro...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Try Beijing Consensus
Lpro...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a long article. I hope you read it. I do not agree with
everything the CPC do.Time and time again China has always been acused
of thing they never did. Eg it was always believe China encourage N
Korea to attack S Korea. But when USSR declassified information came
out it was Russia that supported N Korea to invade. Mao was against it
as he wanted to concentrate on nation building after wining the civil
war. Again China is acused of providing N Korea with Nuclear devices.
But it was Russia that help N Korea build the experimental Nuclear
power station. Again China is acused of helping Pakistan to build
nuclear bomb but it was Khan that stole centrifuge design from Europe.
he then help N Korea. More truth about TAM if you really want to know
the truth.
CharlesLiu
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c410f63e-b24e-4173...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> > I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
> >Tse, tse, finger pointing ain't gonna get the Native Americans off our
> >back.
>
> They're not on my back- I am a Native American, born in Indiana. What have
> you done to us?
I cry out for the injustice done to your people - when many Americans
are too busy dissing China to bother with our own "Tibet".
> In any case, it still doesn't change the *fact* of China's
> invasion of Tibet.
It doesn't - just pointing out us Americans ain't riding a high horse.
>
> > >China ain't the one who sent Bhuto back to Pakistan (GW Bush and Condi
> > >Rice are responsible for that mess.)
>
> > Because Bhutto was a child who could not make decisions for herself, eh?
> >I'll give you that - then why blame China?
>
> I didn't blame China. If there is blame, it's Bhutto's.
>
> > >Why don't you go back to looking for space rock and leave SCC alone?
>
> > Because the People's Non-Republic of China continues to abuse its
> > citizen's
> > rights in ways that makes the Bush Administration look like rank amateurs.
> >Right, as if those tortured in our "Black Sites" live better, why
> >don't we ask them? Opps can't.
>
> "Our"? And how does any action by any other nation change or justify what
> China does to its own citizens?
It doesn't - just to remind those self-righteous Americans the horse
we ride ain't that high. A little introspection is all I ask.
CharlesLiu
> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:80162e2b-e790-4609...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> > I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
> >The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
> >have the support of the slaves.
>
> Tibet was an independent country that was forcefully annexed by China.
What about the Native Nations?
>
> If China had the best interests of the Tibetan people at heart, it would
> *leave*.
Why don't we Americans set a good example for the Chinese?
> The situation in Tibet has been stable for some time now, and if it
> isn't, the Tibetans are not to blame.
True - the existing reality and current states are to blame. Just like
our annexation of the Native American/First People.
So what's wrong with the "American model"? Will you require the same
thing of ourselve that you are demanding the Chinese (eg "leave")?
I think I know what you're gonna say: "ummm, it's complicated". Well
it's complicated for them too.
rst0wxyz
Since he said he's a native American, he would be completed happy if
they leave. It's his country.
Lpro...@aol.com
> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > peasants that gave the CPC the Mandate of heaven to rule all under
> > heaven.
> > If the CPC fails the people, this mandate will be taken away.
>
> Bwahahahahahahaha! More likely, the CPC will pave the streets with Chinese
> blood as it struggles to maintain power. If the people really supported the
> government, then the government wouldn't work so hard to block outside
> information.
Do not under estimate the power of the people. Chinese know alot about
what is going on around the world. Perhaps alot more then what you
know about China and China's history of peasent rebellion.
> > Heaven smile on the Middle Kingdom and Beijing won the Olympic and
> > para-olympic fair and square ... by democratic vote.
>
> I happen to agree with this. I don't see that China did anything excessively
> improper to win the vote, and I don't see that China is going to use the
> Olympics as a political tool any more than any other nation.
So if you have any regrets should not you bring your grievances to IOC
and not China and the atheletes that worked so hard for years.
> > Only to a small group of pro "do all you like unlimited freedom
> > without responsibility" people.
>
> There is no such thing as freedom without responsibility. It's a shame the
> Democrats haven't learned that. It's a shame that China equates
> "responsibility" with "obeying the state".
In Europe you can print a picture of a nude Prinese Diana in any paper
without her conscent. What more can I say.
Look, China system of law and order is still very weak and China is in
the progress of transitioning to rule of law. This will take time be
patience. China is changing every year. Chinese are free to travel and
themselve can see all the chaos around the world that unlimited
freedom brings especially in undeveloped countries. Losers of election
always riot because they lost. Protesters rioted because they want
freedom but do not want to obey the law.
> > Dictatorship are long gone in the Middle Kingdom. All China leaders
> > are limited to several years via indirect election.
>
> Unless the Party wants them to stay longer.
That will not happen. China learn not to allow Mao type dictator to
return. Perhaps US should learn from China to limit the terms of
congressman. Some are as old as 80yrs. As I recall, one of the main
complain about China many years ago was that China should get rid of
octogenarian leadership. They did but did US do the same ?
>
> > Olympic and the Para-olympic is non-political. That is always the
> > sprit.
>
> And *never* reality.
Perhaps I should rephase myself.
Olympic and the Para-olympic should be non-political. But that said, a
country pride to hold olympic and para-olympic can always be
interpreted differently. Nationalism by pro-western unlimited freedom
democracy advocates or patriotism by the rest of the world.
bmo...@nyx.net
> On Jan 5, 1:43 pm, bmo...@nyx.net wrote:
> > > The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
> > > have the support of the slaves. These slaves or serfs literally let in
> > > the PLA.
>
> > Got any evidence for that?
>
Thanks for the link, but the article doesn't say anything about "These
slaves or serfs literally let in the PLA."
I am familiar with the issues of old Tibet and know it was not an
Edenic Shangri-la. I am also familiar with Parenti's work. He's
something of a DL hater and while he makes some points he is also
quite biased at times.
The historical relationship of Tibet and China is nuanced but it is
dishonest to say that Tibet has always been part of China. Tibet was
never fully part of China until the PLA conquered it. Their main
reason, obviously, was because of its strategic importance, especially
vis a vis India.
> I do not agree with
> everything the CPC do.Time and time again China has always been acused
> of thing they never did. Eg it was always believe China encourage N
> Korea to attack S Korea. But when USSR declassified information came
> out it was Russia that supported N Korea to invade. Mao was against it
> as he wanted to concentrate on nation building after wining the civil
> war. Again China is acused of providing N Korea with Nuclear devices.
> But it was Russia that help N Korea build the experimental Nuclear
> power station. Again China is acused of helping Pakistan to build
> nuclear bomb but it was Khan that stole centrifuge design from Europe.
> he then help N Korea. More truth about TAM if you really want to know
> the truth.
>
> http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html- Hide quoted text -
Scott Hedrick
<Lpro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2ba4ec8e-7a7f-4284...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 5, 5:23 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > People/peasant power bought the CPC to power. Thus it is the
> > peasants that gave the CPC the Mandate of heaven to rule all under
> > heaven.
> > If the CPC fails the people, this mandate will be taken away.
>
> Bwahahahahahahaha! More likely, the CPC will pave the streets with Chinese
> blood as it struggles to maintain power. If the people really supported
> the
> government, then the government wouldn't work so hard to block outside
> information.
>Do not under estimate the power of the people. Chinese know alot about
>what is going on around the world.
If the government trusts the people, then why does the Chinese government
put so much effort into controlling access to the Internet?
>Perhaps alot more then what you
>know about China and China's history of peasent rebellion.
When was the last successful peasant rebellion?
>So if you have any regrets should not you bring your grievances to IOC
>and not China
and the atheletes that worked so hard for years.
> > Only to a small group of pro "do all you like unlimited freedom
> > without responsibility" people.
>
> There is no such thing as freedom without responsibility. It's a shame the
> Democrats haven't learned that. It's a shame that China equates
> "responsibility" with "obeying the state".
>In Europe you can print a picture of a nude Prinese Diana in any paper
>without her conscent. What more can I say.
How about printing a picture of a nude Mao in any paper in China?
> Chinese are free to travel and
>themselve can see all the chaos around the world that unlimited
>freedom brings especially in undeveloped countries.
Please tell me where anyone can go to see *unlimited* freedom.
When the Chinese people can actively denounce its government in China
without reprisals, then you can talk about freedom. Until then, there's
always Tiananmen Square.
> > Dictatorship are long gone in the Middle Kingdom. All China leaders
> > are limited to several years via indirect election.
>
> Unless the Party wants them to stay longer.
>That will not happen. China learn not to allow Mao type dictator to
>return.
Good luck with that. It would work much better if the Communist Party were
not in charge. I'm not saying there is a problem with communism- there is,
but that's a different matter. I'm saying a *political party* should not be
able to overrule government decisions.
>Olympic and the Para-olympic should be non-political.
*Should* be. Never has been, never will be. No government will pay for it if
something political can't be gained. China is trying to hide problems rather
than fix them before the Olympics.
Scott Hedrick
On Jan 5, 5:28 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:80162e2b-e790-4609...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> > I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
> >The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
> >have the support of the slaves.
>
> Tibet was an independent country that was forcefully annexed by China.
>What about the Native Nations?
I'm certain there were plenty of Natives in the Nation of Tibet when it was
annexed.
>
> If China had the best interests of the Tibetan people at heart, it would
> *leave*.
>Why don't we Americans set a good example for the Chinese?
I don't recall the United States ever entering Tibet.
> The situation in Tibet has been stable for some time now, and if it
> isn't, the Tibetans are not to blame.
>True - the existing reality and current states are to blame. Just like
>our annexation of the Native American/First People.
"Our"? I haven't annexed anything. I am a Native American, and have been
since birth. Duh.
>So what's wrong with the "American model"? Will you require the same
>thing of ourselve that you are demanding the Chinese (eg "leave")?
I believe that any Americans involved militarily in Tibet should leave.
Scott Hedrick
On Jan 5, 5:19 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c410f63e-b24e-4173...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 2, 7:41 am, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "CharlesLiu" <chliu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cc029273-eb0e-4d9a...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >Look, China ain't the one invading other countries on false pretext.
>
> > I'm sure the Tibetans would agree with you.
> >Tse, tse, finger pointing ain't gonna get the Native Americans off our
> >back.
>
> They're not on my back- I am a Native American, born in Indiana. What have
> you done to us?
>I cry out for the injustice done to your people
What injustice is that?
> In any case, it still doesn't change the *fact* of China's
> invasion of Tibet.
>It doesn't - just pointing out us Americans ain't riding a high horse.
And completely irrelevant to China being in Tibet. One person behaving badly
does not justify the bad behavior of another.
> "Our"? And how does any action by any other nation change or justify what
> China does to its own citizens?
>It doesn't
Exactly.
Lpro...@aol.com
(updated and expanded version, January 2007)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I. For Lords and Lamas
Along with the blood drenched landscape of religious conflict there is
the experience of inner peace and solace that every religion promises,
none more so than Buddhism. Standing in marked contrast to the
intolerant savagery of other religions, Buddhism is neither fanatical
nor dogmatic--so say its adherents. For many of them Buddhism is less
a theology and more a meditative and investigative discipline intended
to promote an inner harmony and enlightenment while directing us to a
path of right living. Generally, the spiritual focus is not only on
oneself but on the welfare of others. One tries to put aside egoistic
pursuits and gain a deeper understanding of one's connection to all
people and things. "Socially engaged Buddhism" tries to blend
individual liberation with responsible social action in order to build
an enlightened society.
A glance at history, however, reveals that not all the many and widely
varying forms of Buddhism have been free of doctrinal fanaticism, nor
free of the violent and exploitative pursuits so characteristic of
other religions. In Sri Lanka there is a legendary and almost sacred
recorded history about the triumphant battles waged by Buddhist kings
of yore. During the twentieth century, Buddhists clashed violently
with each other and with non-Buddhists in Thailand, Burma, Korea,
Japan, India, and elsewhere. In Sri Lanka, armed battles between
Buddhist Sinhalese and Hindu Tamils have taken many lives on both
sides. In 1998 the U.S. State Department listed thirty of the world's
most violent and dangerous extremist groups. Over half of them were
religious, specifically Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist. 1
In South Korea, in 1998, thousands of monks of the Chogye Buddhist
order fought each other with fists, rocks, fire-bombs, and clubs, in
pitched battles that went on for weeks. They were vying for control of
the order, the largest in South Korea, with its annual budget of $9.2
million, its millions of dollars worth of property, and the privilege
of appointing 1,700 monks to various offices. The brawls damaged the
main Buddhist sanctuaries and left dozens of monks injured, some
seriously. The Korean public appeared to disdain both factions,
feeling that no matter what side took control, "it would use
worshippers' donations for luxurious houses and expensive cars." 2
As with any religion, squabbles between or within Buddhist sects are
often fueled by the material corruption and personal deficiencies of
the leadership. For example, in Nagano, Japan, at Zenkoji, the
prestigious complex of temples that has hosted Buddhist sects for more
than 1,400 years, "a nasty battle" arose between Komatsu the chief
priest and the Tacchu, a group of temples nominally under the chief
priest's sway. The Tacchu monks accused Komatsu of selling writings
and drawings under the temple's name for his own gain. They also were
appalled by the frequency with which he was seen in the company of
women. Komatsu in turn sought to isolate and punish monks who were
critical of his leadership. The conflict lasted some five years and
made it into the courts. 3
But what of Tibetan Buddhism? Is it not an exception to this sort of
strife? And what of the society it helped to create? Many Buddhists
maintain that, before the Chinese crackdown in 1959, old Tibet was a
spiritually oriented kingdom free from the egotistical lifestyles,
empty materialism, and corrupting vices that beset modern
industrialized society. Western news media, travel books, novels, and
Hollywood films have portrayed the Tibetan theocracy as a veritable
Shangri-La. The Dalai Lama himself stated that "the pervasive
influence of Buddhism" in Tibet, "amid the wide open spaces of an
unspoiled environment resulted in a society dedicated to peace and
harmony. We enjoyed freedom and contentment." 4
A reading of Tibet's history suggests a somewhat different picture.
"Religious conflict was commonplace in old Tibet," writes one western
Buddhist practitioner. "History belies the Shangri-La image of Tibetan
lamas and their followers living together in mutual tolerance and
nonviolent goodwill. Indeed, the situation was quite different. Old
Tibet was much more like Europe during the religious wars of the
Counterreformation." 5 In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan
created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other
lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the
Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an
ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai
(Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is a historical irony: the
first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army.
His two previous lama "incarnations" were then retroactively
recognized as his predecessors, thereby transforming the 1st Dalai
Lama into the 3rd Dalai Lama. This 1st (or 3rd) Dalai Lama seized
monasteries that did not belong to his sect, and is believed to have
destroyed Buddhist writings that conflicted with his claim to
divinity. The Dalai Lama who succeeded him pursued a sybaritic life,
enjoying many mistresses, partying with friends, and acting in other
ways deemed unfitting for an incarnate deity. For these transgressions
he was murdered by his priests. Within 170 years, despite their
recognized divine status, five Dalai Lamas were killed by their high
priests or other courtiers. 6
For hundreds of years competing Tibetan Buddhist sects engaged in
bitterly violent clashes and summary executions. In 1660, the 5th
Dalai Lama was faced with a rebellion in Tsang province, the
stronghold of the rival Kagyu sect with its high lama known as the
Karmapa. The 5th Dalai Lama called for harsh retribution against the
rebels, directing the Mongol army to obliterate the male and female
lines, and the offspring too "like eggs smashed against rocks.... In
short, annihilate any traces of them, even their names." 7
In 1792, many Kagyu monasteries were confiscated and their monks were
forcibly converted to the Gelug sect (the Dalai Lama's denomination).
The Gelug school, known also as the "Yellow Hats," showed little
tolerance or willingness to mix their teachings with other Buddhist
sects. In the words of one of their traditional prayers: "Praise to
you, violent god of the Yellow Hat teachings/who reduces to particles
of dust/ great beings, high officials and ordinary people/ who pollute
and corrupt the Gelug doctrine." 8 An eighteenth-century memoir of a
Tibetan general depicts sectarian strife among Buddhists that is as
brutal and bloody as any religious conflict might be. 9 This grim
history remains largely unvisited by present-day followers of Tibetan
Buddhism in the West.
Religions have had a close relationship not only with violence but
with economic exploitation. Indeed, it is often the economic
exploitation that necessitates the violence. Such was the case with
the Tibetan theocracy. Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided
over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into manorial
estates worked by serfs. These estates were owned by two social
groups: the rich secular landlords and the rich theocratic lamas. Even
a writer sympathetic to the old order allows that "a great deal of
real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed
great riches." Much of the wealth was accumulated "through active
participation in trade, commerce, and money lending." 10
Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with
its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen.
The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of
high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no
direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself "lived richly in
the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace." 11
Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-
chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama's lay Cabinet,
who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. 12 Old
Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as "a nation
that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed
the laws of karma." 13 In fact. it had a professional army, albeit a
small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to
keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.
Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families
and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there,
they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was
common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the
monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at
age nine. 14 The monastic estates also conscripted children for
lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.
In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a
kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who
composed the "middle-class" families of merchants, shopkeepers, and
small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were
slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring
were born into slavery. 15 The majority of the rural population were
serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without
schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the
lord's land--or the monastery's land--without pay, to repair the
lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They
were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on
demand.16 Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals
to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord
or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should
their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. 17
As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no
responsibility for the serf's maintenance and no direct interest in
his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had
to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to
their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could
neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a
market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.
One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: "Pretty serf
girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he
wished"; they "were just slaves without rights."18 Serfs needed
permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture
those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese
intervention as a "liberation." He testified that under serfdom he was
subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed
escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord's men until blood
poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic
soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed.19
The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each
child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting
a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for
religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being
sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work
were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another
village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could
not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest.
Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors
who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery.20
The theocracy's religious teachings buttressed its class order. The
poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles
upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence
they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic
atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their
next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a
reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present
lives.
The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims,
blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others
openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal
Tibet, torture and mutilation--including eye gouging, the pulling out
of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation--were favored punishments
inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. Journeying
through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a
former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a
monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand
mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist:
"When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in
religion."21 Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human
life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in
the freezing night to die. "The parallels between Tibet and medieval
Europe are striking," concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. 22
In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment
that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of
all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for
cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and
hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special
implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and
testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered
amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him
a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one
of the master's cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another
herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had
his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with
noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had
her nose sliced away.23
Earlier visitors to Tibet commented on the theocratic despotism. In
1895, an Englishman, Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the populace was
under the "intolerable tyranny of monks" and the devil superstitions
they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon
described the Dalai Lama's rule as "an engine of oppression." At about
that time, another English traveler, Captain W.F.T. O'Connor, observed
that "the great landowners and the priests... exercise each in their own
dominion a despotic power from which there is no appeal," while the
people are "oppressed by the most monstrous growth of monasticism and
priest-craft." Tibetan rulers "invented degrading legends and
stimulated a spirit of superstition" among the common people. In 1937,
another visitor, Spencer Chapman, wrote, "The Lamaist monk does not
spend his time in ministering to the people or educating them. . . .
The beggar beside the road is nothing to the monk. Knowledge is the
jealously guarded prerogative of the monasteries and is used to
increase their influence and wealth."24 As much as we might wish
otherwise, feudal theocratic Tibet was a far cry from the romanticized
Shangri La so enthusiastically nurtured by Buddhism's western
proselytes.
II. Secularization vs. Spirituality
What happened to Tibet after the Chinese Communists moved into the
country in 1951? The treaty of that year provided for ostensible self-
governance under the Dalai Lama's rule but gave China military control
and exclusive right to conduct foreign relations. The Chinese were
also granted a direct role in internal administration "to promote
social reforms." Among the earliest changes they wrought was to reduce
usurious interest rates, and build a few hospitals and roads. At
first, they moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion in an attempt
to effect reconstruction. No aristocratic or monastic property was
confiscated, and feudal lords continued to reign over their
hereditarily bound peasants. "Contrary to popular belief in the West,"
claims one observer, the Chinese "took care to show respect for
Tibetan culture and religion."25
Over the centuries the Tibetan lords and lamas had seen Chinese come
and go, and had enjoyed good relations with Generalissimo Chiang
Kaishek and his reactionary Kuomintang rule in China.26 The approval
of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the
Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the current 14th Dalai Lama was
first installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chinese
troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-
old tradition. What upset the Tibetan lords and lamas in the early
1950s was that these latest Chinese were Communists. It would be only
a matter of time, they feared, before the Communists started imposing
their collectivist egalitarian schemes upon Tibet.
The issue was joined in 1956-57, when armed Tibetan bands ambushed
convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. The uprising received
extensive assistance from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA),
including military training, support camps in Nepal, and numerous
airlifts.27 Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a
Free Asia, a CIA-financed front, energetically publicized the cause of
Tibetan resistance, with the Dalai Lama's eldest brother, Thubtan
Norbu, playing an active role in that organization. The Dalai Lama's
second-eldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, established an intelligence
operation with the CIA as early as 1951. He later upgraded it into a
CIA-trained guerrilla unit whose recruits parachuted back into Tibet.
28
Many Tibetan commandos and agents whom the CIA dropped into the
country were chiefs of aristocratic clans or the sons of chiefs.
Ninety percent of them were never heard from again, according to a
report from the CIA itself, meaning they were most likely captured and
killed.29 "Many lamas and lay members of the elite and much of the
Tibetan army joined the uprising, but in the main the populace did
not, assuring its failure," writes Hugh Deane.30 In their book on
Tibet, Ginsburg and Mathos reach a similar conclusion: "As far as can
be ascertained, the great bulk of the common people of Lhasa and of
the adjoining countryside failed to join in the fighting against the
Chinese both when it first began and as it progressed."31 Eventually
the resistance crumbled.
Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after
1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of
unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work
projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They
established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly
of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical
systems in Lhasa.32
Heinrich Harrer (later revealed to have been a sergeant in Hitler's
SS) wrote a bestseller about his experiences in Tibet that was made
into a popular Hollywood movie. He reported that the Tibetans who
resisted the Chinese "were predominantly nobles, semi-nobles and
lamas; they were punished by being made to perform the lowliest tasks,
such as laboring on roads and bridges. They were further humiliated by
being made to clean up the city before the tourists arrived." They
also had to live in a camp originally reserved for beggars and
vagrants--all of which Harrer treats as sure evidence of the dreadful
nature of the Chinese occupation.33
By 1961, Chinese occupation authorities expropriated the landed
estates owned by lords and lamas. They distributed many thousands of
acres to tenant farmers and landless peasants, reorganizing them into
hundreds of communes.. Herds once owned by nobility were turned over
to collectives of poor shepherds. Improvements were made in the
breeding of livestock, and new varieties of vegetables and new strains
of wheat and barley were introduced, along with irrigation
improvements, all of which reportedly led to an increase in agrarian
production.34
Many peasants remained as religious as ever, giving alms to the
clergy. But monks who had been conscripted as children into the
religious orders were now free to renounce the monastic life, and
thousands did, especially the younger ones. The remaining clergy lived
on modest government stipends and extra income earned by officiating
at prayer services, weddings, and funerals.35
Both the Dalai Lama and his advisor and youngest brother, Tendzin
Choegyal, claimed that "more than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a
result of the Chinese occupation."36 The official 1953 census--six
years before the Chinese crackdown--recorded the entire population
residing in Tibet at 1,274,000.37 Other census counts put the
population within Tibet at about two million. If the Chinese killed
1.2 million in the early 1960s then almost all of Tibet, would have
been depopulated, transformed into a killing field dotted with death
camps and mass graves--of which we have no evidence. The thinly
distributed Chinese force in Tibet could not have rounded up, hunted
down, and exterminated that many people even if it had spent all its
time doing nothing else.
Chinese authorities claim to have put an end to floggings,
mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal punishment. They
themselves, however, have been charged with acts of brutality by exile
Tibetans. The authorities do admit to "mistakes," particularly during
the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution when the persecution of religious
beliefs reached a high tide in both China and Tibet. After the
uprising in the late 1950s, thousands of Tibetans were incarcerated.
During the Great Leap Forward, forced collectivization and grain
farming were imposed on the Tibetan peasantry, sometimes with
disastrous effect on production. In the late 1970s, China began
relaxing controls "and tried to undo some of the damage wrought during
the previous two decades."38
In 1980, the Chinese government initiated reforms reportedly designed
to grant Tibet a greater degree of self-rule and self-administration.
Tibetans would now be allowed to cultivate private plots, sell their
harvest surpluses, decide for themselves what crops to grow, and keep
yaks and sheep. Communication with the outside world was again
permitted, and frontier controls were eased to permit some Tibetans to
visit exiled relatives in India and Nepal.39 By the 1980s many of the
principal lamas had begun to shuttle back and forth between China and
the exile communities abroad, "restoring their monasteries in Tibet
and helping to revitalize Buddhism there."40
As of 2007 Tibetan Buddhism was still practiced widely and tolerated
by officialdom. Religious pilgrimages and other standard forms of
worship were allowed but within limits. All monks and nuns had to sign
a loyalty pledge that they would not use their religious position to
foment secession or dissent. And displaying photos of the Dalai Lama
was declared illegal.41
In the 1990s, the Han, the ethnic group comprising over 95 percent of
China's immense population, began moving in substantial numbers into
Tibet. On the streets of Lhasa and Shigatse, signs of Han colonization
are readily visible. Chinese run the factories and many of the shops
and vending stalls. Tall office buildings and large shopping centers
have been built with funds that might have been better spent on water
treatment plants and housing. Chinese cadres in Tibet too often view
their Tibetan neighbors as backward and lazy, in need of economic
development and "patriotic education." During the 1990s Tibetan
government employees suspected of harboring nationalist sympathies
were purged from office, and campaigns were once again launched to
discredit the Dalai Lama. Individual Tibetans reportedly were
subjected to arrest, imprisonment, and forced labor for carrying out
separatist activities and engaging in "political subversion." Some
were held in administrative detention without adequate food, water,
and blankets, subjected to threats, beatings, and other mistreatment.
42
Tibetan history, culture, and certainly religion are slighted in
schools. Teaching materials, though translated into Tibetan, focus
mainly on Chinese history and culture. Chinese family planning
regulations allow a three-child limit for Tibetan families. (There is
only a one-child limit for Han families throughout China, and a two-
child limit for rural Han families whose first child is a girl.) If a
Tibetan couple goes over the three-child limit, the excess children
can be denied subsidized daycare, health care, housing, and education.
These penalties have been enforced irregularly and vary by district.43
None of these child services, it should be noted, were available to
Tibetans before the Chinese takeover.
For the rich lamas and secular lords, the Communist intervention was
an unmitigated calamity. Most of them fled abroad, as did the Dalai
Lama himself, who was assisted in his flight by the CIA. Some
discovered to their horror that they would have to work for a living.
Many, however, escaped that fate. Throughout the 1960s, the Tibetan
exile community was secretly pocketing $1.7 million a year from the
CIA, according to documents released by the State Department in 1998.
Once this fact was publicized, the Dalai Lama's organization itself
issued a statement admitting that it had received millions of dollars
from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of exiles into
Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual
payment from the CIA was $186,000. Indian intelligence also financed
both him and other Tibetan exiles. He has refused to say whether he or
his brothers worked for the CIA. The agency has also declined to
comment.44
In 1995, the News & Observer of Raleigh, North Carolina, carried a
frontpage color photograph of the Dalai Lama being embraced by the
reactionary Republican senator Jesse Helms, under the headline
"Buddhist Captivates Hero of Religious Right."45 In April 1999, along
with Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, and the first George Bush,
the Dalai Lama called upon the British government to release Augusto
Pinochet, the former fascist dictator of Chile and a longtime CIA
client who was visiting England. The Dalai Lama urged that Pinochet
not be forced to go to Spain where he was wanted to stand trial for
crimes against humanity.
Into the twenty-first century, via the National Endowment for
Democracy and other conduits that are more respectable sounding than
the CIA, the U.S. Congress continued to allocate an annual $2 million
to Tibetans in India, with additional millions for "democracy
activities" within the Tibetan exile community. In addition to these
funds, the Dalai Lama received money from financier George Soros.46
Whatever the Dalai Lama's associations with the CIA and various
reactionaries, he did speak often of peace, love, and nonviolence. He
himself really cannot be blamed for the abuses of Tibet's ancien
régime, having been but 25 years old when he fled into exile. In a
1994 interview, he went on record as favoring the building of schools
and roads in his country. He said the corvée (forced unpaid serf
labor) and certain taxes imposed on the peasants were "extremely bad."
And he disliked the way people were saddled with old debts sometimes
passed down from generation to generation.47During the half century of
living in the western world, he had embraced concepts such as human
rights and religious freedom, ideas largely unknown in old Tibet. He
even proposed democracy for Tibet, featuring a written constitution
and a representative assembly.48
In 1996, the Dalai Lama issued a statement that must have had an
unsettling effect on the exile community. It read in part: "Marxism is
founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with
gain and profitability." Marxism fosters "the equitable utilization of
the means of production" and cares about "the fate of the working
classes" and "the victims of . . . exploitation. For those reasons the
system appeals to me, and . . . I think of myself as half-Marxist,
half-Buddhist.49
But he also sent a reassuring message to "those who live in
abundance": "It is a good thing to be rich... Those are the fruits for
deserving actions, the proof that they have been generous in the
past." And to the poor he offers this admonition: "There is no good
reason to become bitter and rebel against those who have property and
fortune... It is better to develop a positive attitude."50
In 2005 the Dalai Lama signed a widely advertised statement along with
ten other Nobel Laureates supporting the "inalienable and fundamental
human right" of working people throughout the world to form labor
unions to protect their interests, in accordance with the United
Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In many countries
"this fundamental right is poorly protected and in some it is
explicitly banned or brutally suppressed," the statement read. Burma,
China, Colombia, Bosnia, and a few other countries were singled out as
among the worst offenders. Even the United States "fails to adequately
protect workers' rights to form unions and bargain collectively.
Millions of U.S. workers lack any legal protection to form unions...."51
The Dalai Lama also gave full support to removing the ingrained
traditional obstacles that have kept Tibetan nuns from receiving an
education. Upon arriving in exile, few nuns could read or write. In
Tibet their activities had been devoted to daylong periods of prayer
and chants. But in northern India they now began reading Buddhist
philosophy and engaging in theological study and debate, activities
that in old Tibet had been open only to monks.52
In November 2005 the Dalai Lama spoke at Stanford University on "The
Heart of Nonviolence," but stopped short of a blanket condemnation of
all violence. Violent actions that are committed in order to reduce
future suffering are not to be condemned, he said, citing World War II
as an example of a worthy effort to protect democracy. What of the
four years of carnage and mass destruction in Iraq, a war condemned by
most of the world--even by a conservative pope--as a blatant violation
of international law and a crime against humanity? The Dalai Lama was
undecided: "The Iraq war--it's too early to say, right or wrong."53
Earlier he had voiced support for the U.S. military intervention
against Yugoslavia and, later on, the U.S. military intervention into
Afghanistan.54
III. Exit Feudal Theocracy
As the Shangri-La myth would have it, in old Tibet the people lived in
contented and tranquil symbiosis with their monastic and secular
lords. Rich lamas and poor monks, wealthy landlords and impoverished
serfs were all bonded together, mutually sustained by the comforting
balm of a deeply spiritual and pacific culture.
One is reminded of the idealized image of feudal Europe presented by
latter-day conservative Catholics such as G. K. Chesterton and Hilaire
Belloc. For them, medieval Christendom was a world of contented
peasants living in the secure embrace of their Church, under the more
or less benign protection of their lords.55 Again we are invited to
accept a particular culture in its idealized form divorced from its
murky material history. This means accepting it as presented by its
favored class, by those who profited most from it. The Shangri-La
image of Tibet bears no more resemblance to historic actuality than
does the pastoral image of medieval Europe.
Seen in all its grim realities, old Tibet confirms the view I
expressed in an earlier book, namely that culture is anything but
neutral. Culture can operate as a legitimating cover for a host of
grave injustices, benefiting a privileged portion of society at great
cost to the rest.56 In theocratic feudal Tibet, ruling interests
manipulated the traditional culture to fortify their own wealth and
power. The theocracy equated rebellious thought and action with
satanic influence. It propagated the general presumption of landlord
superiority and peasant unworthiness. The rich were represented as
deserving their good life, and the lowly poor as deserving their mean
existence, all codified in teachings about the karmic residue of
virtue and vice accumulated from past lives, presented as part of
God's will.
Were the more affluent lamas just hypocrites who preached one thing
and secretly believed another? More likely they were genuinely
attached to those beliefs that brought such good results for them.
That their theology so perfectly supported their material privileges
only strengthened the sincerity with which it was embraced.
It might be said that we denizens of the modern secular world cannot
grasp the equations of happiness and pain, contentment and custom,
that characterize more traditionally spiritual societies. This is
probably true, and it may explain why some of us idealize such
societies. But still, a gouged eye is a gouged eye; a flogging is a
flogging; and the grinding exploitation of serfs and slaves is a
brutal class injustice whatever its cultural wrapping. There is a
difference between a spiritual bond and human bondage, even when both
exist side by side
Many ordinary Tibetans want the Dalai Lama back in their country, but
it appears that relatively few want a return to the social order he
represented. A 1999 story in the Washington Post notes that the Dalai
Lama continues to be revered in Tibet, but
. . . few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic
clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of his
advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in
surrendering the land they gained during China's land reform to the
clans. Tibet's former slaves say they, too, don't want their former
masters to return to power. "I've already lived that life once
before," said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his
best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest
sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the Dalai Lama, but
added, "I may not be free under Chinese communism, but I am better off
than when I was a slave."57
It should be noted that the Dalai Lama is not the only highly placed
lama chosen in childhood as a reincarnation. One or another
reincarnate lama or tulku--a spiritual teacher of special purity
elected to be reborn again and again--can be found presiding over most
major monasteries. The tulku system is unique to Tibetan Buddhism.
Scores of Tibetan lamas claim to be reincarnate tulkus.
The very first tulku was a lama known as the Karmapa who appeared
nearly three centuries before the first Dalai Lama. The Karmapa is
leader of a Tibetan Buddhist tradition known as the Karma Kagyu. The
rise of the Gelugpa sect headed by the Dalai Lama led to a politico-
religious rivalry with the Kagyu that has lasted five hundred years
and continues to play itself out within the Tibetan exile community
today. That the Kagyu sect has grown famously, opening some six
hundred new centers around the world in the last thirty-five years,
has not helped the situation.
The search for a tulku, Erik Curren reminds us, has not always been
conducted in that purely spiritual mode portrayed in certain Hollywood
films. "Sometimes monastic officials wanted a child from a powerful
local noble family to give the cloister more political clout. Other
times they wanted a child from a lower-class family who would have
little leverage to influence the child's upbringing." On other
occasions "a local warlord, the Chinese emperor or even the Dalai
Lama's government in Lhasa might [have tried] to impose its choice of
tulku on a monastery for political reasons."58
Such may have been the case in the selection of the 17th Karmapa,
whose monastery-in-exile is situated in Rumtek, in the Indian state of
Sikkim. In 1993 the monks of the Karma Kagyu tradition had a candidate
of their own choice. The Dalai Lama, along with several dissenting
Karma Kagyu leaders (and with the support of the Chinese government!)
backed a different boy. The Kagyu monks charged that the Dalai Lama
had overstepped his authority in attempting to select a leader for
their sect. "Neither his political role nor his position as a lama in
his own Gelugpa tradition entitled him to choose the Karmapa, who is a
leader of a different tradition..."59 As one of the Kagyu leaders
insisted, "Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about
automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how
respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhists should
respect other people's rights--their human rights and their religious
freedom."60
What followed was a dozen years of conflict in the Tibetan exile
community, punctuated by intermittent riots, intimidation, physical
attacks, blacklisting, police harassment, litigation, official
corruption, and the looting and undermining of the Karmapa's monastery
in Rumtek by supporters of the Gelugpa faction. All this has caused at
least one western devotee to wonder if the years of exile were not
hastening the moral corrosion of Tibetan Buddhism.61
What is clear is that not all Tibetan Buddhists accept the Dalai Lama
as their theological and spiritual mentor. Though he is referred to as
the "spiritual leader of Tibet," many see this title as little more
than a formality. It does not give him authority over the four
religious schools of Tibet other than his own, "just as calling the
U.S. president the 'leader of the free world' gives him no role in
governing France or Germany."62
Not all Tibetan exiles are enamoured of the old Shangri-La theocracy.
Kim Lewis, who studied healing methods with a Buddhist monk in
Berkeley, California, had occasion to talk at length with more than a
dozen Tibetan women who lived in the monk's building. When she asked
how they felt about returning to their homeland, the sentiment was
unanimously negative. At first, Lewis assumed that their reluctance
had to do with the Chinese occupation, but they quickly informed her
otherwise. They said they were extremely grateful "not to have to
marry 4 or 5 men, be pregnant almost all the time," or deal with
sexually transmitted diseases contacted from a straying husband. The
younger women "were delighted to be getting an education, wanted
absolutely nothing to do with any religion, and wondered why Americans
were so naïve [about Tibet]."63
The women interviewed by Lewis recounted stories of their
grandmothers' ordeals with monks who used them as "wisdom consorts."
By sleeping with the monks, the grandmothers were told, they gained
"the means to enlightenment" -- after all, the Buddha himself had to
be with a woman to reach enlightenment.
The women also mentioned the "rampant" sex that the supposedly
spiritual and abstemious monks practiced with each other in the
Gelugpa sect. The women who were mothers spoke bitterly about the
monastery's confiscation of their young boys in Tibet. They claimed
that when a boy cried for his mother, he would be told "Why do you cry
for her, she gave you up--she's just a woman."
The monks who were granted political asylum in California applied for
public assistance. Lewis, herself a devotee for a time, assisted with
the paperwork. She observes that they continue to receive government
checks amounting to $550 to $700 per month along with Medicare. In
addition, the monks reside rent free in nicely furnished apartments.
"They pay no utilities, have free access to the Internet on computers
provided for them, along with fax machines, free cell and home phones
and cable TV."
They also receive a monthly payment from their order, along with
contributions and dues from their American followers. Some devotees
eagerly carry out chores for the monks, including grocery shopping and
cleaning their apartments and toilets. These same holy men, Lewis
remarks, "have no problem criticizing Americans for their 'obsession
with material things.'"64
To welcome the end of the old feudal theocracy in Tibet is not to
applaud everything about Chinese rule in that country. This point is
seldom understood by today's Shangri-La believers in the West. The
converse is also true: To denounce the Chinese occupation does not
mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime. Tibetans deserve
to be perceived as actual people, not perfected spiritualists or
innocent political symbols. "To idealize them," notes Ma Jian, a
dissident Chinese traveler to Tibet (now living in Britain), "is to
deny them their humanity."65
One common complaint among Buddhist followers in the West is that
Tibet's religious culture is being undermined by the Chinese
occupation. To some extent this seems to be the case. Many of the
monasteries are closed, and much of the theocracy seems to have passed
into history. Whether Chinese rule has brought betterment or disaster
is not the central issue here. The question is what kind of country
was old Tibet. What I am disputing is the supposedly pristine
spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. We can advocate
religious freedom and independence for a new Tibet without having to
embrace the mythology about old Tibet. Tibetan feudalism was cloaked
in Buddhism, but the two are not to be equated. In reality, old Tibet
was not a Paradise Lost. It was a retrograde repressive theocracy of
extreme privilege and poverty, a long way from Shangri-La.
Finally, let it be said that if Tibet's future is to be positioned
somewhere within China's emerging free-market paradise, then this does
not bode well for the Tibetans. China boasts a dazzling 8 percent
economic growth rate and is emerging as one of the world's greatest
industrial powers. But with economic growth has come an ever deepening
gulf between rich and poor. Most Chinese live close to the poverty
level or well under it, while a small group of newly brooded
capitalists profit hugely in collusion with shady officials. Regional
bureaucrats milk the country dry, extorting graft from the populace
and looting local treasuries. Land grabbing in cities and countryside
by avaricious developers and corrupt officials at the expense of the
populace are almost everyday occurrences. Tens of thousands of
grassroot protests and disturbances have erupted across the country,
usually to be met with unforgiving police force. Corruption is so
prevalent, reaching into so many places, that even the normally
complacent national leadership was forced to take notice and began
moving against it in late 2006.
Workers in China who try to organize labor unions in the corporate
dominated "business zones" risk losing their jobs or getting beaten
and imprisoned. Millions of business zone workers toil twelve-hour
days at subsistence wages. With the health care system now being
privatized, free or affordable medical treatment is no longer
available for millions. Men have tramped into the cities in search of
work, leaving an increasingly impoverished countryside populated by
women, children, and the elderly. The suicide rate has increased
dramatically, especially among women.66
China's natural environment is sadly polluted. Most of its fabled
rivers and many lakes are dead, producing massive fish die-offs from
the billions of tons of industrial emissions and untreated human waste
dumped into them. Toxic effluents, including pesticides and
herbicides, seep into ground water or directly into irrigation canals.
Cancer rates in villages situated along waterways have skyrocketed a
thousand-fold. Hundreds of millions of urban residents breathe air
rated as dangerously unhealthy, contaminated by industrial growth and
the recent addition of millions of automobiles. An estimated 400,000
die prematurely every year from air pollution. Government
environmental agencies have no enforcement power to stop polluters,
and generally the government ignores or denies such problems,
concentrating instead on industrial growth.67
China's own scientific establishment reports that unless greenhouse
gases are curbed, the nation will face massive crop failures along
with catastrophic food and water shortages in the years ahead. In
2006-2007 severe drought was already afflicting southwest China.68
If China is the great success story of speedy free market development,
and is to be the model and inspiration for Tibet's future, then old
feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually
was.
Notes:
Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God, (University of
California Press, 2000), 6, 112-113, 157.
Kyong-Hwa Seok, "Korean Monk Gangs Battle for Temple Turf," San
Francisco Examiner, 3 December 1998.
Los Angeles Times, February 25, 2006.
Dalai Lama quoted in Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La:
Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University
Press, 1998), 205.
Erik D. Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling: Uncovering Corruption at the
Heart of Tibetan Buddhism Today (Alaya Press 2005), 41.
Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet
(Monthly Review Press, 1964), 119, 123; and Melvyn C. Goldstein, The
Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama (University
of California Press, 1995), 6-16.
Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, 50.
Stephen Bachelor, "Letting Daylight into Magic: The Life and Times of
Dorje Shugden," Tricycle: The Buddhist Review, 7, Spring 1998.
Bachelor discusses the sectarian fanaticism and doctrinal clashes that
ill fit the Western portrait of Buddhism as a non-dogmatic and
tolerant tradition.
Dhoring Tenzin Paljor, Autobiography, cited in Curren, Buddha's Not
Smiling, 8.
Pradyumna P. Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet: The Impact of Chinese
Communist Ideology on the Landscape (Lexington, Kentucky: University
Press of Kentucky, 1976), 64.
See Gary Wilson's report in Worker's World, 6 February 1997.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 62 and 174.
As skeptically noted by Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, 9.
Melvyn Goldstein, William Siebenschuh, and Tashì-Tsering, The Struggle
for Modern Tibet: The Autobiography of Tashì-Tsering (Armonk, N.Y.:
M.E. Sharpe, 1997).
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 110.
Melvyn C. Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet 1913-1951 (Berkeley:
University of California Press, 1989), 5 and passim.
Anna Louise Strong, Tibetan Interviews (Peking: New World Press,
1959), 15, 19-21, 24.
Quoted in Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 31.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 175-176; and Strong, Tibetan
Interviews, 25-26.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 113.
A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet rev. ed. (Armonk, N.Y. and
London: 1996), 9 and 7-33 for a general discussion of feudal Tibet;
see also Felix Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance (Garden City, N.Y.:
Doubleday, 1961), 241-249; Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet, 3-5;
and Lopez, Prisoners of Shangri-La, passim.
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 91-96.
Waddell, Landon, O'Connor, and Chapman are quoted in Gelder and
Gelder, The Timely Rain, 123-125.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 52.
Heinrich Harrer, Return to Tibet (New York: Schocken, 1985), 29.
See Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in Tibet
(Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press, 2002); and William
Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet," Air & Space, December 1997/January
1998.
On the CIA's links to the Dalai Lama and his family and entourage, see
Loren Coleman, Tom Slick and the Search for the Yeti (London: Faber
and Faber, 1989).
Leary, "Secret Mission to Tibet."
Hugh Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet," CovertAction Quarterly (Winter
1987).
George Ginsburg and Michael Mathos Communist China and Tibet (1964),
quoted in Deane, "The Cold War in Tibet." Deane notes that author Bina
Roy reached a similar conclusion.
See Greene, A Curtain of Ignorance, 248 and passim; and Grunfeld, The
Making of Modern Tibet, passim.
Harrer, Return to Tibet, 54.
Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 36-38, 41, 57-58; London Times, 4
July 1966.
Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 29 and 47-48.
Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet," Imprimis (publication of
Hillsdale College, Michigan), April 1999.
Karan, The Changing Face of Tibet, 52-53.
Elaine Kurtenbach, Associate Press report, 12 February 1998.
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 47-48.
Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, 8.
San Francisco Chonicle, 9 January 2007.
Report by the International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A
Generation in Peril (Berkeley Calif.: 2001), passim.
International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, A Generation in Peril,
66-68, 98.
im Mann, "CIA Gave Aid to Tibetan Exiles in '60s, Files Show," Los
Angeles Times, 15 September 1998; and New York Times, 1 October, 1998.
News & Observer, 6 September 1995, cited in Lopez, Prisoners of
Shangri-La, 3.
Heather Cottin, "George Soros, Imperial Wizard," CovertAction
Quarterly no. 74 (Fall 2002).
Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon, 51.
Tendzin Choegyal, "The Truth about Tibet."
The Dalai Lama in Marianne Dresser (ed.), Beyond Dogma: Dialogues and
Discourses (Berkeley, Calif.: North Atlantic Books, 1996)
These comments are from a book of the Dalai Lama's writings quoted in
Nikolai Thyssen, "Oceaner af onkel Tom," Dagbladet Information, 29
December 2003, (translated for me by Julius Wilm). Thyssen's review
(in Danish) can be found at http://www.information.dk/Indgang/VisArkiv.dna?pArtNo=20031229154141.txt.
"A Global Call for Human Rights in the Workplace," New York Times, 6
December 2005.
San Francisco Chronicle, 14 January 2007.
San Francisco Chronicle, 5 November 2005.
Times of India 13 October 2000; Samantha Conti's report, Reuter, 17
June 1994; Amitabh Pal, "The Dalai Lama Interview," Progressive,
January 2006.
The Gelders draw this comparison, The Timely Rain, 64.
Michael Parenti, The Culture Struggle (Seven Stories, 2006).
John Pomfret, "Tibet Caught in China's Web, " Washington Post, 23 July
1999.
Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, 3.
Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, 13 and 138.
Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, 21.
Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, passim. For books that are favorable
toward the Karmapa appointed by the Dalai Lama's faction, see Lea
Terhune, Karmapa of Tibet: The Politics of Reincarnation (Wisdom
Publications, 2004); Gaby Naher, Wrestling the Dragon (Rider 2004);
Mick Brown, The Dance of 17 Lives (Bloomsbury 2004).
Erik Curren, "Not So Easy to Say Who is Karmapa," correspondence, 22
August 2005, www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=22.1577,0,0,1,0.
Kim Lewis, correspondence to me, 15 July 2004.
Kim Lewis, correspondence to me, 16 July 2004.
Ma Jian, Stick Out Your Tongue (Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2006).
See the PBS documentary, China from the Inside, January 2007,
KQED.PBS.org/kqed/chinanside.
San Francisco Chronicle, 9 January 2007.
"China: Global Warming to Cause Food Shortages," People's Weekly
World, 13 January 2007
rst0wxyz
> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2ba4ec8e-7a7f-4284...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 5, 5:23 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > blood as it struggles to maintain power. If the people really supported
> > the
> > government, then the government wouldn't work so hard to block outside
> > information.
> >Do not under estimate the power of the people. Chinese know alot about
> >what is going on around the world.
>
> If the government trusts the people, then why does the Chinese government
> put so much effort into controlling access to the Internet?
You have proven your ignorance of China over and over again. We have
many Mainland Chinese participants in SCC.
>
> >Perhaps alot more then what you
> >know about China and China's history of peasent rebellion.
>
> When was the last successful peasant rebellion?
In 1644 led by a beggar named Zhu Yuanzhang. The period became the
Ming Dynasty.
>
> >So if you have any regrets should not you bring your grievances to IOC
> >and not China
>
> and the atheletes that worked so hard for years.
> > There is no such thing as freedom without responsibility. It's a shame the
> > Democrats haven't learned that. It's a shame that China equates
> > "responsibility" with "obeying the state".
> >In Europe you can print a picture of a nude Prinese Diana in any paper
> >without her conscent. What more can I say.
>
> How about printing a picture of a nude Mao in any paper in China?
>
> > Chinese are free to travel and
> >themselve can see all the chaos around the world that unlimited
> >freedom brings especially in undeveloped countries.
>
> Please tell me where anyone can go to see *unlimited* freedom.
In a uninhabited island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
>
> When the Chinese people can actively denounce its government in China
> without reprisals, then you can talk about freedom. Until then, there's
> always Tiananmen Square.
Do you think you can go to Washington DC and denounce the U.S.
government without reprisal? Go ahead. Give it a try and see what
would happen to you.
> > Unless the Party wants them to stay longer.
> >That will not happen. China learn not to allow Mao type dictator to
> >return.
>
> Good luck with that. It would work much better if the Communist Party were
> not in charge.
It's much better than having George W. Bush in charge.
> I'm not saying there is a problem with communism- there is,
> but that's a different matter. I'm saying a *political party* should not be
> able to overrule government decisions.
Can the U.S. Congress overrule George Bush so far?
>
> >Olympic and the Para-olympic should be non-political.
>
> *Should* be. Never has been, never will be. No government will pay for it if
> something political can't be gained. China is trying to hide problems rather
> than fix them before the Olympics.
You are nothing but a brainwashed American toeing the government and
the CIA line. You don't know a damn thing about China. So shut up
and go to bed, and don't open your mouth on this subject again.
Lpro...@aol.com
> On Jan 5, 7:37 pm, Lproud...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > On Jan 5, 1:43 pm, bmo...@nyx.net wrote:
> > > > The reason the Tibetan seperatist forces lost was that they did not
> > > > have the support of the slaves. These slaves or serfs literally let in
> > > > the PLA.
>
> > > Got any evidence for that?
>
> > This is a long article. I hope you read it.
>
> Thanks for the link, but the article doesn't say anything about "These
> slaves or serfs literally let in the PLA."
Quote from the Article:-
Many Tibetan commandos and agents whom the CIA dropped into the
country were chiefs of aristocratic clans or the sons of chiefs.
Ninety percent of them were never heard from again, according to a
report from the CIA itself, meaning they were most likely captured and
killed.29 "Many lamas and lay members of the elite and much of the
Tibetan army joined the uprising, but in the main the populace did
not, assuring its failure," writes Hugh Deane.30 In their book on
Tibet, Ginsburg and Mathos reach a similar conclusion: "As far as can
be ascertained, the great bulk of the common people of Lhasa and of
the adjoining countryside failed to join in the fighting against the
Chinese both when it first began and as it progressed."31 Eventually
the resistance crumbled.
Literally letting the PLA in. I think you understand what I mean. If
not, refer to this short message from a former rebel himself. take
note of the tone of the message.
Quote:
Almost 3 years before Kham and Amdo were invaded and those people
fought the real uprsing, china was almost welcomed in open arms in to
lhasa.
Who brought his holiness to india? my grandfather and the brave
khampas that fought 2years before march 10,yet these videos leave out
the real probel with Tibetans. Which is amongst each other. Learn the
probems within tibetans before you speak about china.
> I am familiar with the issues of old Tibet and know it was not an
> Edenic Shangri-la. I am also familiar with Parenti's work. He's
> something of a DL hater and while he makes some points he is also
> quite biased at times.
If you read the article, Parenti also did have some very nasty things
to say about the CPC. Was that bias too ?? How about the 2 to 3 pages
of references at the end of the article. Were all these aurthurs and
traveller all bias too ?
Parenti is a DL hater ? Does that make you a DL lover ?
I think you need to come to term with the facts.
> The historical relationship of Tibet and China
Unintelligent nonsence "Snipped"
> vis a vis India.
> > I do not agree with
> > everything the CPC do.Time and time again China has always been acused
> > of thing they never did. Eg it was always believe China encourage N
> > Korea to attack S Korea. But when USSR declassified information came
> > out it was Russia that supported N Korea to invade. Mao was against it
> > as he wanted to concentrate on nation building after wining the civil
> > war. Again China is acused of providing N Korea with Nuclear devices.
> > But it was Russia that help N Korea build the experimental Nuclear
> > power station. Again China is acused of helping Pakistan to build
> > nuclear bomb but it was Khan that stole centrifuge design from Europe.
> > he then help N Korea. More truth about TAM if you really want to know
> > the truth.
>
> >http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
rst0wxyz
> On Jan 6, 4:37 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:2ba4ec8e-7a7f-4284...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 5, 5:23 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > Bwahahahahahahaha! More likely, the CPC will pave the streets with Chinese
> > > blood as it struggles to maintain power. If the people really supported
> > > the
> > > government, then the government wouldn't work so hard to block outside
> > > information.
> > >Do not under estimate the power of the people. Chinese know alot about
> > >what is going on around the world.
>
> > If the government trusts the people, then why does the Chinese government
> > put so much effort into controlling access to the Internet?
>
> You have proven your ignorance of China over and over again. We have
> many Mainland Chinese participants in SCC.
>
>
>
> > >Perhaps alot more then what you
> > >know about China and China's history of peasent rebellion.
>
> > When was the last successful peasant rebellion?
>
> In 1644 led by a beggar named Zhu Yuanzhang. The period became the
> Ming Dynasty.
Oooopps, wrong year. Instead of 1644, it should be 1368. 1644 was the
year it ended.
> and go to bed, and don't open your mouth on this subject again.- Hide quoted text -
Rand Simberg
rst0wxyz <rst0...@yahoo.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:
>On Jan 6, 4:37 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> When the Chinese people can actively denounce its government in China
>> without reprisals, then you can talk about freedom. Until then, there's
>> always Tiananmen Square.
>
>Do you think you can go to Washington DC and denounce the U.S.
>government without reprisal? Go ahead. Give it a try and see what
>would happen to you.
It happens every day, you ignorant loon. Right in front of the White
House.
>> > Unless the Party wants them to stay longer.
>> >That will not happen. China learn not to allow Mao type dictator to
>> >return.
>>
>> Good luck with that. It would work much better if the Communist Party were
>> not in charge.
>
>It's much better than having George W. Bush in charge.
George W. Bush will be leaving office in a year. When will the
current rulers of China step down?
>> I'm not saying there is a problem with communism- there is,
>> but that's a different matter. I'm saying a *political party* should not be
>> able to overrule government decisions.
>
>Can the U.S. Congress overrule George Bush so far?
Of course they can, you ignorant loon. They can pass legislation, and
if necessary, they can impeach him. It's part of the separation of
powers, something that China doesn't have. Just because they choose
not to doesn't mean that they can't.
>> >Olympic and the Para-olympic should be non-political.
>>
>> *Should* be. Never has been, never will be. No government will pay for it if
>> something political can't be gained. China is trying to hide problems rather
>> than fix them before the Olympics.
>
>You are nothing but a brainwashed American toeing the government and
>the CIA line. You don't know a damn thing about China. So shut up
>and go to bed, and don't open your mouth on this subject again.
He obviously knows much more about China than you know about the US,
or are ever likely to learn.
rst0wxyz
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:05:14 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
> such a way as to indicate that:
>
> >On Jan 6, 4:37 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> When the Chinese people can actively denounce its government in China
> >> without reprisals, then you can talk about freedom. Until then, there's
> >> always Tiananmen Square.
>
> >Do you think you can go to Washington DC and denounce the U.S.
> >government without reprisal? Go ahead. Give it a try and see what
> >would happen to you.
>
> It happens every day, you ignorant loon. Right in front of the White
> House.
And many are taken away, you ignorant loon yourself. Why don't you go
there and do it and see for yourself. The majority of them were just
milling around.
>
> >> > Unless the Party wants them to stay longer.
> >> >That will not happen. China learn not to allow Mao type dictator to
> >> >return.
>
> >> Good luck with that. It would work much better if the Communist Party were
> >> not in charge.
>
> >It's much better than having George W. Bush in charge.
>
> George W. Bush will be leaving office in a year. When will the
> current rulers of China step down?
China's term of presidency is 5 years. Hu Jintao will leave when his
term is up or unless he gets thrown out by the Politburo.
>
> >> I'm not saying there is a problem with communism- there is,
> >> but that's a different matter. I'm saying a *political party* should not be
> >> able to overrule government decisions.
>
> >Can the U.S. Congress overrule George Bush so far?
>
> Of course they can, you ignorant loon.
Show me how, loony? George Bush is the worst terrorist around today.
> They can pass legislation,
With his red-neck friends and Republicans in Congress? How?
> and
> if necessary, they can impeach him.
A lot of bull, but nothing of substance.
> It's part of the separation of
> powers,
More bull.
> something that China doesn't have.
So far, China is doing much better than the U.S. as anyone can see.
> Just because they choose
> not to doesn't mean that they can't.
You are just as ignorant or even more than the other loony. A lot of
government propaganda and CIA brainwashing as George Romney, Matt's
father, used to say.
>
> >> >Olympic and the Para-olympic should be non-political.
>
> >> *Should* be. Never has been, never will be. No government will pay for it if
> >> something political can't be gained. China is trying to hide problems rather
> >> than fix them before the Olympics.
>
> >You are nothing but a brainwashed American toeing the government and
> >the CIA line. You don't know a damn thing about China. So shut up
> >and go to bed, and don't open your mouth on this subject again.
>
> He obviously knows much more about China than you know about the US,
> or are ever likely to learn.
You are more ignorant than the other one.
Rand Simberg
rst0wxyz <rst0...@yahoo.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:
>On Jan 7, 5:48 am, simberg.interglo...@org.trash (Rand Simberg) wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:05:14 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
>> rst0wxyz <rst0w...@yahoo.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
>> such a way as to indicate that:
>>
>> >On Jan 6, 4:37 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> >> When the Chinese people can actively denounce its government in China
>> >> without reprisals, then you can talk about freedom. Until then, there's
>> >> always Tiananmen Square.
>>
>> >Do you think you can go to Washington DC and denounce the U.S.
>> >government without reprisal? Go ahead. Give it a try and see what
>> >would happen to you.
>>
>> It happens every day, you ignorant loon. Right in front of the White
>> House.
>
>And many are taken away, you ignorant loon yourself.
Not for denouncing the US government.
>Why don't you go
>there and do it and see for yourself.
I've been there many times.
<rest of stupidity and ignorance snipped>
rst0wxyz
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:48:02 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
> such a way as to indicate that:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 7, 5:48 am, simberg.interglo...@org.trash (Rand Simberg) wrote:
> >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:05:14 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
> >> rst0wxyz <rst0w...@yahoo.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
> >> such a way as to indicate that:
>
> >> >On Jan 6, 4:37 pm, "Scott Hedrick" <dinehnmNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> <Lproud...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> >> When the Chinese people can actively denounce its government in China
> >> >> without reprisals, then you can talk about freedom. Until then, there's
> >> >> always Tiananmen Square.
>
> >> >Do you think you can go to Washington DC and denounce the U.S.
> >> >government without reprisal? Go ahead. Give it a try and see what
> >> >would happen to you.
>
> >> It happens every day, you ignorant loon. Right in front of the White
> >> House.
>
> >And many are taken away, you ignorant loon yourself.
>
> Not for denouncing the US government.
Many have been taking away for denouncing the U.S. government, yes.
>
> >Why don't you go
> >there and do it and see for yourself.
>
> I've been there many times.
Yes, as a tourist/sightseer.
You are just too brainwashed to see beyond the government version of
the world.
>
> <rest of stupidity and ignorance snipped>- Hide quoted text -
Rand Simberg
rst0wxyz <rst0...@yahoo.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:
>On Jan 7, 8:02 am, simberg.interglo...@org.trash (Rand Simberg) wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:48:02 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
>> rst0wxyz <rst0w...@yahoo.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
>> such a way as to indicate that:
>> >> >Do you think you can go to Washington DC and denounce the U.S.
>> >> >government without reprisal? Go ahead. Give it a try and see what
>> >> >would happen to you.
>>
>> >> It happens every day, you ignorant loon. Right in front of the White
>> >> House.
>>
>> >And many are taken away, you ignorant loon yourself.
>>
>> Not for denouncing the US government.
>
>Many have been taking away for denouncing the U.S. government, yes.
No, none. Never happened. Provide a single citation in which it did.
>> >Why don't you go
>> >there and do it and see for yourself.
>>
>> I've been there many times.
>
>Yes, as a tourist/sightseer.
No.
Scott Hedrick
<Lpro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:af941bf1-1919-4fd2...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>"...but in the main the populace did
> not, assuring its failure,"
>
> Literally letting the PLA in. I think you understand what I mean.
Yes- you mean you do not understand what the article said. You have provided
*no evidence* that the general populace wanted the Chinese invasion. At
best, what you provided shows that the population was too afraid of the
Chinese to resist. With good reason- just ask a Tiananmen Square survivor
what China does to resisters.
rst0wxyz
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:24:42 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
> such a way as to indicate that:
Don't you know? In orer to keep our American image up high, we gotta
keep it quiet, just like in China, Russia,...
Have you read about Dr. Frank Olson?
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/olson2.htm
How about the U.S. Public Health Service experiment on Southern Blacks
on siphilis?
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/
How about a warfare experiment in San Francisco that killed a citizen?
http://www.rense.com/general15/ofmicrobesandmock.htm
And many many more. They kept it quiet for many many years...
>
> >> >Why don't you go
> >> >there and do it and see for yourself.
>
> >> I've been there many times.
>
> >Yes, as a tourist/sightseer.
>
> No.
>
bmo...@nyx.net
Well, actually, what the article describes is not "literally letting
the PLA" in.
> If
> not, refer to this short message from a former rebel himself. take
> note of the tone of the message.
> Quote:
> Almost 3 years before Kham and Amdo were invaded and those people
> fought the real uprsing, china was almost welcomed in open arms in to
> lhasa.
> Who brought his holiness to india? my grandfather and the brave
> khampas that fought 2years before march 10,yet these videos leave out
> the real probel with Tibetans. Which is amongst each other. Learn the
> probems within tibetans before you speak about china.
Well, that's what one person said.
> > I am familiar with the issues of old Tibet and know it was not an
> > Edenic Shangri-la. I am also familiar with Parenti's work. He's
> > something of a DL hater and while he makes some points he is also
> > quite biased at times.
>
> If you read the article, Parenti also did have some very nasty things
> to say about the CPC. Was that bias too ??
Whatever. It doesn't necessarily mean he is unbiased with regard to
Tibet and the DL.
> How about the 2 to 3 pages
> of references at the end of the article. Were all these aurthurs and
> traveller all bias too ?
I guess we'd have to examine them closely to make a better decision
about that, eh?
> Parenti is a DL hater ? Does that make you a DL lover ?
That's very silly and illogical.
> I think you need to come to term with the facts.
> > The historical relationship of Tibet and China
>
> Unintelligent nonsence "Snipped"
It's not very cool to assert something is nonsense and then just snip
it. Just as many Westerners do not really understand Tibet and its
history with China, many mainland Chinese stubbornly assert things
about Tibet and do not respond well to reasonable discussion about it.
That is why I generally refrain from discussing Tibet on this NG.
There is very little effort by anyone to reach any kind of middle
ground.
You sound pissed off so I will leave this alone. I do not mean to
offend you.
>
> > vis a vis India.
> > > I do not agree with
> > > everything the CPC do.Time and time again China has always been acused
> > > of thing they never did. Eg it was always believe China encourage N
> > > Korea to attack S Korea. But when USSR declassified information came
> > > out it was Russia that supported N Korea to invade. Mao was against it
> > > as he wanted to concentrate on nation building after wining the civil
> > > war. Again China is acused of providing N Korea with Nuclear devices.
> > > But it was Russia that help N Korea build the experimental Nuclear
> > > power station. Again China is acused of helping Pakistan to build
> > > nuclear bomb but it was Khan that stole centrifuge design from Europe.
> > > he then help N Korea. More truth about TAM if you really want to know
> > > the truth.
>
> > >http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html-Hidequoted text -
Lpro...@aol.com
> > note of the tone of the message.
> > Quote:
> > Almost 3 years before Kham and Amdo were invaded and those people
> > fought the real uprsing, china was almost welcomed in open arms in to
> > lhasa.
> > Who brought his holiness to india? my grandfather and the brave
> > khampas that fought 2years before march 10,yet these videos leave out
> > the real probel with Tibetans. Which is amongst each other. Learn the
> > probems within tibetans before you speak about china.
>
> Well, that's what one person said.
But this is not just "any" person. He is directly related to a former
Tibetan rebel. So do not just ignore it. The post above was a very
recent posting 1 or 2 months ago. The message is this. Old Tibet is
still very much alive.
> > I think you need to come to term with the facts.
> > > The historical relationship of Tibet and China
>
> > Unintelligent nonsence "Snipped"
>
> It's not very cool to assert something is nonsense and then just snip
> it. Just as many Westerners do not really understand Tibet and its
> history with China, many mainland Chinese stubbornly assert things
> about Tibet and do not respond well to reasonable discussion about it.
> That is why I generally refrain from discussing Tibet on this NG.
> There is very little effort by anyone to reach any kind of middle
> ground.
Look, I am not trying to start any flame war. I just want people to
understand the facts. Again, I am sometime not happy with what the CPC
does but if you look at many of these "Unlimited Freedom" Free Tibet
sites, they criticized the CPC to the extreme. They do not even TRY to
be balance. They refuse to openly admit their own atrocities and blame
the CPC for everything and I mean everything. This does not help their
cause but can cause bitterness between the Tibetans and the Han ren.
And they are being cheer on and supported by many Anglo Saxons NGOs
who themselves only read brief Headline news and themselves do not
understand History and what real Humans Rights is all about.
I am also against any chauvinistic Han posters too.
The bottom line to all this discussing is still this.
Tibet independence is a LOST CAUSE. Once people come to terms with
this, then we can reach the middle ground.
> You sound pissed off so I will leave this alone. I do not mean to
> offend you.
>
If no offend intended, then no offend taken.