Re: Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors
Bret Cahill
> >technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
> >border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
> >the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
> >customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
> >trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
> >hour or so . . .
> >It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
> >tractors and fields.
> >A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
> >on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
> >relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
> >round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
> >be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
> >As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
> >anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
> >lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.
> What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?
One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.
This should be common knowledge.
> And where would all
> that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?
The grid: Coal fired plants, nukes, PV, dish Stirling, geo thermal,
wind . . . whatever they got that will put out some juice. Polar
bears, tropical frogs and hurricanes are not the issue.
> Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:
How big is this field or tractor gonna be?
Plug in hybrids can go 40 miles between charges. A tractor may
require 20X higher hp than a Volt but a tractor only needs to go 1
mile between charges.
> ?How much power to recharge in two minutes?
If a 400 hp articulated tractor moves 10 mph it's only running 6
minutes between charges and will require 3X 400 hp or ~ 1 MW -- 1/6th
the juice drawn by an electric locomotive.
In 4 years diesel will be $15 / gallon and electrification will
amount
to hundreds of dollars/hour in savings, much more money than
necessary
to hire someone willing to sit at the end of the field for a few
minutes reading a magazine charging up between furrows.
> ?What would the voltage have to be to keep the
> ?wire losses reasonable?
It's only a half mile so a fat high current low voltage wire might be
desirable for safety reasons.
> ?How much do the batteries weigh?
Regardless of the size, from the articulated tractor sucking down 22
gallons of diesel/hour [$110/hr and spiraling] to a 15 hp garden
tractor, the battery + electric motor system will always have a
higher
specific power than any IC engine + fuel tank system.
The reason is a tractor just doesn't need to go very far to work a
field.
> ?How much do the batteries cost?
Same as the batteries in plug in hybrids which require an even larger
battery / hp.
Are you now claiming plug in hybrids are a scam?
> Ideas are cheap,
It only seems that way to those who have none.
> as long as you ignore reality.
The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid. On
top
of that China seems to have a permanent double digit growth rate
while, according to Soros, the U. S. will be in a decades long
recession so the size of China's economy will surpass America's in as
little as 6 years. This will leave the great majority of Americans
to
try to get by on a couple percent of the oil we consume today.
So here are 3 plausible scenarios:
1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,
2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,
3. starve.
If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.
Bret Cahill
"Every idea is the product of a single mind."
-- Bishop Richard Cumberland
Mark Thorson
>
> The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
> give out rather
> quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
> to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid.
That's oil. Estimates of worldwide recoverable natural gas
reserves continue to grow year after year, despite high and
increasing consumption. That's because new reserves are
being found all the time.
Bret Cahill
Not completely carbon free but at least we can convert the tractors to
natural gas and avoid plowing fields with oxen.
Bret Cahill
Bret Cahill
Spiraling oil prices will drag up the cost of every other form of
portable energy like a rag doll.
Forget carbon. Forget AGW. The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
<BretC...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
>> >technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
>> >border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
>> >the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
>> >customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
>> >trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
>> >hour or so . . .
>
>> >It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
>> >tractors and fields.
>> >A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
>> >on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
>> >relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
>> >round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
>> >be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
>> >As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
>> >anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
>> >lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.
>
>> What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?
>
>One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
>charging time.
>
>This should be common knowledge.
Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.
John
Rob Dekker
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news:9is984pd60rnk8u9p...@4ax.com...
.....
> Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
> two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
> typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
> Cell phone ditto.
>
Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :
http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html
Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.
> John
>
>
>
>
>
John Larkin
wrote:
Give us a break.
http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html
This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.
They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million. Wish'em luck.
John
phil hays
> So here are 3 plausible scenarios:
>
> 1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,
>
> 2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,
>
> 3. starve.
>
> If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
> plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.
There is a whole level of technology that you missed. From 1880 to 1910
or so, this was high tech farming, and was growing rapidly. Peak
production year was 1912.
4) Biofuel (aka wood) fired steam tractors.
Wins over oxen or horses as it doesn't need to be fed year round. Loses
to gas tractors on power to weight ratio, and on more labor required for
fueling.
--
Phil Hays
Bret Cahill
>
> > 1. �electrify the fields & tractors, or,
>
> > 2. �return to plowing fields with oxen, or,
>
> > 3. �starve.
>
> > If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
> > plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.
>
> There is a whole level of technology that you missed. From 1880 to 1910
> or so, this was high tech farming, and was growing rapidly. Peak
> production year was 1912.
>
> 4) Biofuel (aka wood) fired steam tractors.
Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.
Bret Cahill
Bret Cahill
Everyday power tool lithium ion charges in 10 minutes.
Bret Cahill
Mark Thorson
>
> Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.
Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
of hydrostatic testing. Throughout the U.S., this
is required by law.
The old 19th century designs were like little
locomotives, lots of cast iron and iron plate,
and rivets. With modern materials and designs,
a steam tractor could be very competitive.
Bret Cahill
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
This should be common knowledge.
Bret Cahill
Bret Cahill
> 35 kWh battery packs are in production.
That might be the right size for the 8 tire 400 hp articulated tractor
on a quarter square.
Bret Cahill
Mark Thorson
>
> Forget carbon. Forget AGW. The _only_ serious permanent solution is
> to electrify the fields & tractors.
You mean like slot cars? Or overhead wires
like street cars?
Bret Cahill
> Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
> of hydrostatic testing. �
Which will piss off farmers even more than screwing around with a
trolly wire after every pass.
> Throughout the U.S., this
> is required by law.
Which is why the largest solar thermal plant on the world on a closely
monitored utility site will be Stirling and not steam.
> The old 19th century designs were like little
> locomotives, lots of cast iron and iron plate,
> and rivets. �
An organic working fluid would be an improvement over H2O.
> With modern materials and designs,
> a steam tractor could be very competitive.
Just put the #$%#@! electric motor into the #$%#! tractor.
Bret Cahill
Bret Cahill
Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. The
tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.
With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.
The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. The tractor goes one mile.
Or 1/2 mile.
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.
Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
Consider charging it in one minute.
See the problem?
John
Bret Cahill
> >> two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
> >> typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
> >> Cell phone ditto.
>
> >Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
> >You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
> >Here is one where they did that :
>
> >http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html
>
> >Recharges in a few minutes.
> >35 kWh battery packs are in production.
>
> Give us a break.
>
> http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html
>
> This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
> dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.
>
> They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
> -57 million.
A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?
First you wanted a fast charging battery. We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.
What's next? A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?
John
Mark Thorson
>
> > > Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.
>
> > Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
> > of hydrostatic testing. �
>
> Which will piss off farmers even more than screwing around with a
> trolly wire after every pass.
Hardly. A hydrostatic test is easy to do,
and they don't have to be done very often.
Mark Thorson
>
> Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.
Firetube boilers don't explode. Jay Leno explains it:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html
Mark Thorson
>
> > > Forget carbon. �Forget AGW. �The _only_ serious permanent solution is
> > > to electrify the fields & tractors.
>
> > You mean like slot cars? �Or overhead wires
> > like street cars?
>
> Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square.
An extension cord! Of course!
Paul E. Schoen
"Bret Cahill" <BretC...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:701f2fdd-5cc0-4b1d...@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
Or 1/2 mile.
=========================================================================
I think you are fixated on batteries. Why not plant in circles as they do
with pivot arm irrigation, and then use a variation of the pivot arm to
provide power to the tractor? The tractor could be made to ride along with
the pivot arm, and each pivot could be provided with a fairly small
distribution transformer and a DC bus supply powered from a grid of
underground cables. The tractor could have a standard three phase motor
driven by a V/F controller directly from a DC supply cable on a reel. Much
of the system could be automated. Circular crop fields (not alien crop
circles) are already used in some areas where 100% land use is not needed,
and the unused areas could be used for small yield alternate crops tended
by hand, or just for wind and erosion buffers.
http://ask.metafilter.com/44058/Since-when-did-farmers-grow-circular-crops
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=2618
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/crops/04704.html
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/irsprayhigh.html
http://www.piercecorporation.com/home.html
http://www.pivotirrigation.com.au/
And looky here! It's been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere!
http://terraverde.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/exchange-with-phil-timmons-re-the-electric-farm/
I think it's an excellent idea and will be commercially available soon.
Paul
John Fields
<BretC...@aol.com> wrote:
>Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
>recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
>All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
>The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
---
JF
John Fields
<BretC...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > Forget carbon. ?Forget AGW. ?The _only_ serious permanent solution is
>> > to electrify the fields & tractors.
>
>> You mean like slot cars? ?Or overhead wires
>> like street cars?
>
>Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. The
>tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.
---
Small battery?
Since 1 horsepower is equal to 746 watts, that means that your 400
horsepower tractor needs about a 300 kilowatt-hour battery to work for
an hour and, if the motor is rated for, say 300VDC, it'll need to draw
1000 amps from the battery when it's working, and that's not even
considering the unavoidable losses.
On top of that, if you want to charge the battery up in a couple of
minutes that means the charger's going to have to pump more than
120000 amps into it for two minutes and, if your wire is sitting at
1200 volts, it'll have to be able to supply 100 amps to the charger.
Again, disregarding losses.
Then there's the question of getting power to the wire...
The whole thing is a badly conceived, poorly thought out can of worms.
---
>With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.
>
>The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. The tractor goes one mile.
>
>Or 1/2 mile.
---
And your point is???
JF
John Larkin
<BretC...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > Forget carbon. ?Forget AGW. ?The _only_ serious permanent solution is
>> > to electrify the fields & tractors.
>
>> You mean like slot cars? ?Or overhead wires
>> like street cars?
>
>Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. The
>tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.
>
>With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.
>
>The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. The tractor goes one mile.
>
>Or 1/2 mile.
>
>
>Bret Cahill
>
>
>
In electric-only mode, the Volt will go 40 miles between charges.
Recharge time is 6-8 hours. That's no way to run a farm.
John
BretC...@peoplepc.com
Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
> ---
> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. The initial cost of a
production run electric tractor drive train would be less than a
diesel tractor.
Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
>
> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
> >This should be common knowledge.
>
> >Bret Cahill
>
> Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.
>
> Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
> Consider charging it in one minute.
>
> See the problem?
No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
wrote:
>> >> >> Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
>> >> >> two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
>> >> >> typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
>> >> >> Cell phone ditto.
>>
>> >> >Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
>> >> >You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
>> >> >Here is one where they did that :
>>
>> >> >http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html
>>
>> >> >Recharges in a few minutes.
>> >> >35 kWh battery packs are in production.
>>
>> >> Give us a break.
>>
>> >>http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html
>>
>> >> This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
>> >> dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.
>>
>> >> They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
>> >> -57 million.
>>
>> >A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. ?It this an
>> >argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?
>>
>> >First you wanted a fast charging battery. ? We gave it to you and now
>> >you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.
>>
>> >What's next? ?A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
>> >by naked women?
>>
>> How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?
>
>Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.
>
>
Got a link to a product? Most Li ion batteries charge in hours.
Toshiba announced a breakthrough fast-charge battery in 2005, but I
don't think it's real.
John
BretC...@peoplepc.com
>
> > > Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
> > > of hydrostatic testing. �
So are nuclear accidents. The problem in the real world is things go
wrong.
> > Which will piss off farmers even more than screwing around with a
> > trolly wire after every pass.
> Hardly. A hydrostatic test is easy to do,
> and they don't have to be done very often.
A steam tractor would have a much higher initial cost and require much
more maintence and training necessary than even an ICE. Unless you
had a steam - electric hybrid the load couldn't be changed rapidly.
Either you waste steam or time. Algae diesel is more promising.
Bret Cahill
Mark Thorson
>
> A steam tractor would have a much higher initial cost and require much
> more maintence and training necessary than even an ICE. Unless you
> had a steam - electric hybrid the load couldn't be changed rapidly.
> Either you waste steam or time. Algae diesel is more promising.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Steam is mechanically far simpler than ICE.
It doesn't need a clutch or transmission
because a steam engine has a nearly flat
torque/RPM curve, unlike an ICE.
You have to jump through all sorts of hoops
to make an ICE drive a variable load, like
a transmission, spark advance mechanism,
high-octane fuels, anti-knock additives, etc.
Steam can use almost any fuel that burns,
even wood, and it can burn much more cleanly.
It produces no oxides of nitrogen, and a
properly adjusted flame produces almost no CO.
BretC...@peoplepc.com
>
> Firetube boilers don't explode. �Jay Leno explains it:
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html
"Still, it's easy to see why steam failed. When you bought a Doble,
you got a list of things your chauffeur was supposed to do every week.
Nobody would stand for weekly maintenance these days. Plus, you've got
to carry steam oil, water and gasoline."
Just put the #$%@! electric motor into the&^%#@! tractor.
Bret Cahill
John Fields
wrote:
>> >> >> Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
>> >> >> two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
>> >> >> typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
>> >> >> Cell phone ditto.
>>
>> >> >Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
>> >> >You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
>> >> >Here is one where they did that :
>>
>> >> >http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html
>>
>> >> >Recharges in a few minutes.
>> >> >35 kWh battery packs are in production.
>>
>> >> Give us a break.
>>
>> >>http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html
>>
>> >> This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
>> >> dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.
>>
>> >> They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
>> >> -57 million.
>>
>> >A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. ?It this an
>> >argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?
>>
>> >First you wanted a fast charging battery. ? We gave it to you and now
>> >you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.
>>
>> >What's next? ?A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
>> >by naked women?
>>
>> How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?
>
>Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a lithium ion battery pack.
---
How much do they cost, how many are you going to need for your 400
horsepower tractor, and how long are they going to last until they can
no longer be charged?
And what are you going to do about a charger?
And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
horrendous losses?
You're grasping at straws trying to keep from waking up and finding
out what a nightmare your idiotic pipe dream really is.
JF
BretC...@peoplepc.com
Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? Visit www.homedepot.com
and look it up.
> how many are you going to need for your 400
> horsepower tractor,
Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. The tractor
never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
between charges.
> and how long are they going to last until they can
> no longer be charged?
The same as any other application, i. e., plug in hybrids.
> And what are you going to do about a charger?
The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
each pass.
Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.
> And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
> horrendous losses?
_What_ "horrendous losses?"
You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> > more maintence and training necessary than even an ICE. �Unless you
> > had a steam - electric hybrid the load couldn't be changed rapidly.
> > Either you waste steam or time. �Algae diesel is more promising.
>
> You don't know what you're talking about.
> Steam is mechanically far simpler than ICE.
But far more complicated, more expensive, required more maintenance
and is less efficient than than an electic motor powered by bio mass
burned at a power plant.
> It doesn't need a clutch or transmission
> because a steam engine has a nearly flat
> torque/RPM curve, unlike an ICE.
Neither do motors.
> You have to jump through all sorts of hoops
> to make an ICE drive a variable load, like
> a transmission, spark advance mechanism,
> high-octane fuels, anti-knock additives, etc.
> Steam can use almost any fuel that burns,
> even wood, and it can burn much more cleanly.
> It produces no oxides of nitrogen, and a
> properly adjusted flame produces almost no CO.
The key goal is to avoid paying the $30 billion a year -- soon to be
$100 billion/yr -- in agriculture's liquid fuel costs.
Start burning wood or bio mass and you will be cleaning creasote,
soot, ash, etc., from hundreds of feet of fire tube every day.
There's no way around this problem in closed cycle.
Wood chips can be cooked for a gas that can be burned in ICE but
generally speaking bio mass needs to be burned at a stationary power
plant, not in vehicles.
Bret Cahill
John Fields
wrote:
>> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
>> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>>
>> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>>
>> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>>
>> ---
>> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>
>The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
>doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done.
---
Really?
Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour, would need a battery
which can supply about 300KWH, (300 000 watt-hours) and if it's doing
it with an output voltage of 300V that means it needs to be rated for
an output of 1000AH at C/1.
That's a lot of watt-hours and a lot of work done.
---
>The initial cost of a
>production run electric tractor drive train would be less than a
>diesel tractor.
>
>Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
>grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.
---
Poppycock.
JF
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
> >> ---
> >> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>
> >The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
> >doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. �
>
> ---
> Really?
>
> Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour,
It takes a hour to get across a field?
What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?
. . .
> >Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
> >grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.
> Poppycock.
Now that shows some thought.
Bret Cahill
Michael A. Terrell
Bret Cahill wrote:
>
> Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
> recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
More ignorant bullshit.
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm
Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming'
sheep.
Michael A. Terrell
BretC...@peoplepc.com wrote:
>
> > >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
> > >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
> >
> > >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
> >
> > >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
> >
> > ---
> > And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>
> The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
> doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. The initial cost of a
> production run electric tractor drive train would be less than a
> diesel tractor.
Is there no end to your ignorance? Why do you think a tractor moves
so slow? Do you have ANY IDEA how much energy is required to plow hard
packed soil?.
> Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
> grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.
Yawn...........
John Fields
wrote:
>On Jul 21, 10:45?pm, John Larkin
---
Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???
And here just a couple of post ago you mentioned that you play by the
honor system.
Well, now that we see that you're also a liar let me give you a little
clue as to how some of this here elecktrickle stuff works:
If a battery with a capacity of 2 AH (120 ampere-minutes) needs to be
recharged in two minutes, then you've got to fill it back up with the
same amount of electricity, but you've only got 2 minutes to do it in,
so you've got to pump it in faster than it came out. 60 times faster,
in fact, so that means instead of 2 amperes going in you've got to
force 120 amperes into that poor little AA battery. BIG problem!
Actually, because of losses, you'd have to pump more than that into it
to fully charge it and, just as an aside, the capacity of the battery
is usually rated at C/10 or C/20 which means that, for a 2AH battery,
the rate of discharge in order to achieve full capacity would be, in
the first case, 200mA for 10 hours and in the second case, 100mA for
20 hours.
JF
Michael A. Terrell
BretC...@peoplepc.com wrote:
>
> Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? Visit www.homedepot.com
> and look it up.
Whatever happened to clear thought, and working out the details
before presenting an idea, so you don't prove yourself the fool?
> Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. The tractor
> never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
> between charges.
>
> > and how long are they going to last until they can
> > no longer be charged?
>
> The same as any other application, i. e., plug in hybrids.
>
> > And what are you going to do about a charger?
>
> The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
> each pass.
>
> Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
> in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.
>
> > And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
> > horrendous losses?
>
> _What_ "horrendous losses?"
>
> You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
> on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.
You proved it. There is no end to your ignorance of Physics, and the
real world. The batteries would weigh more than the tractor, requiring
more batteries. Then the tractor would have to be made larger to carry
the extra batteries. That would require even more batteries...
A dragline powered plow would make more sense, pulled from one end
of a straight furrow to the next, but you would still need large
electric motors, probably on railroad tracks to move from row to row
without having the tension pull them out of position.
John Fields
wrote:
---
Blah, blah, blah...
You're talking about supplying 400 horsepower _from batteries_ for an
extended period of time.
Do the math, if you can, and then post what you find. It'll be
interesting.
JF
John Fields
wrote:
>> >> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
>> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>>
>> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>>
>> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>>
>> >> ---
>> >> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>>
>> >The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
>> >doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. ?
>>
>> ---
>> Really?
>>
>> Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour,
>
>It takes a hour to get across a field?
>
>What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?
---
Hey, its _your_ number, genius...
---
>
>. . .
>
>> >Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
>> >grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.
>
>> Poppycock.
>
>Now that shows some thought.
---
Junk in, Junk out.
JF
Michael A. Terrell
BretC...@peoplepc.com wrote:
>
> It takes a hour to get across a field?
>
> What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?
See, you don't know anything about farming. I'll bet you thought
they plow at 60 MPH.
Michael A. Terrell
John Fields wrote:
>
> Blah, blah, blah...
>
> You're talking about supplying 400 horsepower _from batteries_ for an
> extended period of time.
>
> Do the math, if you can, and then post what you find. It'll be
> interesting.
I'd like to see him connect the charger to that mythical battery and
see how wide the debris field is, with me a mile or more away, while he
plays with his ACME battery.
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >and look it up.
>
> >> how many are you going to need for your 400
> >> horsepower tractor,
>
> >Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. �The tractor
> >never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
> >between charges.
>
> >> and how long are they going to last until they can
> >> no longer be charged?
>
> >The same as any other application, i. e., plug in hybrids.
>
> >> And what are you going to do about a charger?
>
> >The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
> >each pass.
>
> >Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
> >in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.
>
> >> And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
> >> horrendous losses?
>
> >_What_ "horrendous losses?"
>
> >You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
> >on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.
>
> ---
> Blah, blah, blah...
>
> You're talking about supplying 400 horsepower _from batteries_ for an
> extended period of time.
Do the math: A quarter square is 1/2 mile long.
If the tractor speed is 10 mph, the "extended period of time" = 6
minutes for a one wire system or 3 minutes for a 2 wire system at
least an order of magnitude less than the time required by a plug in
hybrid.
Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> > extended period of time.
>
> > Do the math, if you can, and then post what you find. �It'll be
> > interesting.
>
> � �I'd like to see him connect the charger to that mythical battery
You actually admit you never heard of a rechargeable battery before?
Are you just acting stupid or are you really that dumb in real life?
Either way you now have standing to sue to recover any money you paid
for any "training" or "education" in electronics.
It will be an easy case against the trade school that ripped you off.
Just print out this post.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> > Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? �Visitwww.homedepot.com
> > and look it up.
> � �Whatever happened to clear thought,
IWe're still waiting for some clear thinging on the fundamental
differences between plug in hybrids and grid-battery tractors.
I already provided one difference: The tractor battery only needs a
charge that will last a few minutes, an order of magnitude less time
than the hybrid.
. . .
> > You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
> > on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.
> � �You proved it. �
I knew that issue would force you into full issue dodging mode proving
you have nothing to say. By dodging the issue you proved you couldn't
think of any fundamental differences.
Here, we'll give you another chance to dodge:
You need to show that there's something fundamentally different going
on with grid - battery tractors than EVs or plug in hybrids.
Every time you dodge that issue you will be presented with it again.
Bret Cahill
"A coward dies a thousand deaths . . ."
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> > The tractor will have a trolly pole which will contact the wire after
> > each pass.
> > Instead of paying $110/hr for diesel you pay an illegal $12/hr to sit
> > in the tractor while it pauses to recharge.
> > > And how are you going to get power to the field and not take
> > > horrendous losses?
> > _What_ "horrendous losses?"
Notice the dodge?
Here, we'll try again:
What "horrendous losses?"
The $100 billion a year wasted on diesel for agriculture?
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
Hey, John, don't confuse the poor guy with a lot of math and
technology.
Usenet is a magnet for amateurs with looney ideas.
John
Bret Cahill
> >> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
> >> >> ---
> >> >> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>
> >> >The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
> >> >doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done. ?
>
> >> ---
> >> Really?
>
> >> Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour,
> >It takes a hour to get across a field?
Notice the dodge?
> >What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?
>
> ---
> Hey, its _your_ number,
_You_ are the moron who thought it would take an hour to get across
the field.
_My_ number was 6 - 10 minutes to get across the field and back
between charges, _much_ less time than that expected of an EV or plug
in battery.
The more you try to be too clever by half the dumber you're gonna
look.
> >> >Any argument for plug in hybrids is an *a fortiori* argument for the
> >> >grid-battery "hybrid" tractor.
>
> >> Poppycock.
Well?
Don't keep us settin' on the edges of our chairs.
Either tell us why plug in hybrids are a waste of money or how the
grid-battery tractor is fundamentally different than a plug in hybrid.
But don't just sit there and whine.
Bret Cahill
Bret Cahill
>
> > What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?
>
> � �See, you don't know anything about farming.
I ask a question and you dodge it.
Here, we'll try again:
What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?
If you dodge again the only assumption is you are ignorant of farming
operations.
>�I'll bet you thought
> they plow at 60 MPH.
Well you lost that bet.
The record shows I always assumed a speed of 6 - 10 mph and that the
round trip would take 6 - 10 minutes, much less time that the charge
expected for an EV or plug in.
Bret Cahill
Phil scadden
most of the other groups). Kindly take discussion somewhere else.
--
Phil Scadden, Senior Scientist
GNS Science Ltd
764 Cumberland St, Private Bag 1930, Dunedin, New Zealand
Ph +64 3 4799663, fax +64 3 477 5232
Phil scadden
Bret Cahill
> >tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.
> >With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.
> >The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. �The tractor goes one mile.
> >Or 1/2 mile.
> In electric-only mode, the Volt will go 40 miles between charges.
And the tractor goes one mile.
Or 1/2 mile.
Recharge time is two orders of magnitude less than the Volt.
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
<BretC...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. ?The
>> >tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.
>
>> >With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.
>
>> >The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. ?The tractor goes one mile.
>
>> >Or 1/2 mile.
>
>> In electric-only mode, the Volt will go 40 miles between charges.
>
>And the tractor goes one mile.
>
>Or 1/2 mile.
>
>Recharge time is two orders of magnitude less than the Volt.
>
>
>Bret Cahill
Your ideas are excellent. Take them to one of the agriculture-related
newsgroups, where people will be grateful for your brilliant
suggestions. I'm sure all the farmers in the USA will be cutting
spiral rows next season.
John
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
> >> >This should be common knowledge.
>
> >> >Bret Cahill
>
> >> Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.
>
> >> Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
> >> Consider charging it in one minute.
>
> >> See the problem?
>
> >No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
> >year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.
>
> ---
> Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???
The Issue has _always been_ liquid fuel costs.
There is no reason to electrify the farms if diesel wasn't spiraling.
. . .
> If a battery with a capacity of 2 AH (120 ampere-minutes) needs to be
> recharged in two minutes, then you've got to fill it back up with the
> same amount of electricity, but you've only got 2 minutes to do it in,
> so you've got to pump it in faster than it came out. �
And it "came out" in 6 - 10 minutes.
The tractor is moving 6 - 10 mph.
Alternatively, if the tractor is moving slowly, then it won't require
400 hp, and you'll _still_ have a short charging time.
You keep trying to dodge the fundamental reason this is a better
application of batteries than the wildly popular plug in hybrids:
Unlike EVs or plug ins the tractor never goes very far from the
charger.
The batteries can therefore be small and cheap and have short charging
times.
And we haven't gotten to the favorable torque/rpm curve of electric
motors which allows a much smaller hp motor.
Bret Cahill
terryc
> What farming operation requires 400 hp to go 0.5 mph?
Ploughing, broad acre sowing, harvesting.
terryc
> Much less on a unit power basis than any plug in hybrid. The tractor
> never needs to go more than a mile or, using two wires, a half mile
> between charges.
So everytime the farmer moves the tractor between fields what does he do?
How do you propose to get around the soil compaction problem? This tractor
that only has to go a mile has to do an enormous amount of travelling too
and from the charging point?
terryc
>> I'd like to see him connect the charger to that mythical battery
>
> You actually admit you never heard of a rechargeable battery before?
Recharging the battery that you would need for your idea is very diferent
from popping a D cell in a little recharger. Given the current needed to
flow, any loose cables would be a danger to life and limb.
terryc
>> You don't know what you're talking about.
>> Steam is mechanically far simpler than ICE.
>
> But far more complicated, more expensive, required more maintenance
> and is less efficient than than an electic motor powered by bio mass
> burned at a power plant.
umm, hasn't this argument degenerated to whther the steam boiler is large
one at a power station or lots of little ones in paddocks?
Rob Dekker
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news:ofoc84prrlukm3jss...@4ax.com...
It's more likely that we will move to no-till agriculture.
>
>
>
Don Bowey
"terryc" <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote:
Also a process I believe is called sub-soiling where a large machine turns
the soil from about 5 feet below the surface.
Rob Dekker
<BretC...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message news:3b85f7ee-b438-4a7d...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > how much do they cost,
> > > Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? ?Visitwww.homedepot.com
> > > and look it up.
> > ? ?Whatever happened to clear thought,
>
> IWe're still waiting for some clear thinging on the fundamental
> differences between plug in hybrids and grid-battery tractors.
Bret, I admire your out-of-the-box idea of battery-driven tractors, I don't think that full-electric tractors are going to show up
any time soon.
Couple of differences with plug-in hybrid passenger vehicles come to mind :
- The use diesel, which has a higher value of combustion than gasoline cars, and higher in efficiency than gasoline cars.
- They are (when working) operating at near-optimal efficiency (constant high power; near the most efficient RPM possible).
- The don't gain much from regenerative breaking.
- Tractors are essentially a big engine on wheels. Their entire purpose is to provide high-power for an entire work-day out in the
field. The diesel tank is configered accordingly.
Battery technology is not competitive with such modes of operation. In my back-of-the-envelope calculations, we need a 6-10X
improvement of battery energy density (w.r.t. Li-ion) before the range can be matched with equal power and equal weight.
Battery tech IS competitive for passenger vehicles, although even there we need to compromise on the driving range (hence PHEVs). So
from all the vehicles around, tractors have a lower chance of going full-electric for a while.
Different story for electric-drive tractors. Electric-drive (such as used in diesel-electric locomotives) does save fuel, increases
torch, and simplifies operation.
Caterpillar has at least one of these fuel savers :
http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=5853
Smaller tractors (lawn-mowers and other etc) could actually go electric rather easily.
>
> I already provided one difference: The tractor battery only needs a
> charge that will last a few minutes, an order of magnitude less time
> than the hybrid.
True, if it needs to re-charge during the work day.
10 recharges during a work-day would compensate for the 10X difference in battery tech.
So your idea might work IF the farmer finds it acceptable to re-charge 10X per work day.
Rob
Rob Dekker
"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message news:rcvb84d1if3fofeka...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:31:33 -0700 (PDT), BretC...@peoplepc.com
> wrote:
>
>>> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
>>> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>>>
>>> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>>>
>>> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>>>
>>> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>>
>>The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
>>doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done.
>
> Really?
>
> Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour, would need a battery
> which can supply about 300KWH, (300 000 watt-hours) and if it's doing
> it with an output voltage of 300V that means it needs to be rated for
> an output of 1000AH at C/1.
>
> That's a lot of watt-hours and a lot of work done.
True. But technically speaking, a 300 kWh battery is not completely rediculous : It will cost about $100,000 wholesale, and weigh
less than 2 ton.
These are not unsurmountable numbers for a big-ass 400 hp tractor, considering the savings in fuel it would create.
But of course the practicle problems remain : recharging 10X per day seems hardly acceptable when you are out in the field. Even for
fast recharges.
The machines are typically leased by the hour, and you really don't want to loose any time during a work day.
Rob
Mark Thorson
The boiler isn't a pressurized tank. It's a firetube
flash boiler. It can vent if it fails, but it doesn't
have sufficient pressurized volume to explode. The
"boiler explosion" scenario was just one of several
dishonest ploys to dismiss steam technology.
John Larkin
wrote:
Lots of things are practical if yoy kill off about 96% of the
population first.
John
John Larkin
<p.scadden@_no_spam_gns.cri.nz> wrote:
>This discussion has absolutely nothing to do sci.math.num-analysis (or
>most of the other groups). Kindly take discussion somewhere else.
It's an unmoderated group. Just ignore the thread.
John
John Larkin
wrote:
>And we haven't gotten to the favorable torque/rpm curve of electric
>motors which allows a much smaller hp motor.
Didn't somebody already invent gears?
John
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >>>> >tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.
>
> >>>> >With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.
>
> >>>> >The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. ?The tractor goes one mile.
>
> >>>> >Or 1/2 mile.
>
> >>>> In electric-only mode, the Volt will go 40 miles between charges.
>
> >>>And the tractor goes one mile.
>
> >>>Or 1/2 mile.
>
> >>>Recharge time is two orders of magnitude less than the Volt.
>
> >>>Bret Cahill
>
> >> Your ideas are excellent. Take them to one of the agriculture-related
> >> newsgroups, where people will be grateful for your brilliant
> >> suggestions. I'm sure all the farmers in the USA will be cutting
> >> spiral rows next season.
>
> >> John
>
> >It's more likely that we will move to no-till agriculture.
>
> Lots of things are practical if yoy kill off about 96% of the
> population first.
You dodged the issue:
Paying $100 billion a year for diesel for agriculture will _starve_
the population.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >most of the other groups). Kindly take discussion somewhere else.
>
> It's an unmoderated group. Just ignore the thread.
We need applied math folk for the final spreadsheet work. No reason
to piss 'em off.
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
wrote:
Is that $100b number for the US, or for the whole world?
John
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
>
> >> >Bret Cahill
>
> >> Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.
>
> >> Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
> >> Consider charging it in one minute.
>
> >> See the problem?
>
> >No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
> >year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.
>
> ---
> Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???
_You_ not "we."
The original issue was _always_ the $100 billion wasted on diesel.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> > Ploughing, broad acre sowing, harvesting.
>
> Also a process I believe is called sub-soiling where a large machine turns
> the soil from about 5 feet below the surface.
Then call in a service company with a bigger battery.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >>> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >>> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >>> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
> >>> ---
> >>> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>
> >>The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
> >>doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done.
>
> > ---
> > Really?
>
> > Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour, would need a battery
> > which can supply about 300KWH, (300 000 watt-hours) and if it's doing
> > it with an output voltage of 300V that means it needs to be rated for
> > an output of 1000AH at C/1.
>
> > That's a lot of watt-hours and a lot of work done.
>
> True.
Not true.
The tractor only needs to make one "lap" between charges -- a few
minutes.
Any argument for plug ins is an *a fortiori* argument for grid-battery
powered tractors.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> > > > Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? ?Visitwww.homedepot.com
> > > > and look it up.
> > > ? ?Whatever happened to clear thought,
>
> > IWe're still waiting for some clear thinging on the fundamental
> > differences between plug in hybrids and grid-battery tractors.
>
> Bret, I admire your out-of-the-box idea of battery-driven tractors, I don't think that full-electric tractors are going to show up
> any time soon.
I have no problems with a _small_ ICE on the tractor.
> Couple of differences with plug-in hybrid passenger vehicles come to mind :
> - The use diesel, which has a higher value of combustion than gasoline cars, and higher in efficiency than gasoline cars.
And?
> - They are (when working) operating at near-optimal efficiency (constant high power; near the most efficient RPM possible).
> - The don't gain much from regenerative breaking.
These seem to be more a fortiori arguments for electrifying the farm.
> - Tractors are essentially a big engine on wheels. Their entire purpose is to provide high-power for an entire work-day out in the
> field.
Sounds like the perfect application for a high low end torque electric
motor.
> The diesel tank is configered accordingly.
You mean the diesel tank that dumps $300/hour down the drain?
THAT diesel tank?
> Battery technology is not competitive with such modes of operation. In my back-of-the-envelope calculations, we need a 6-10X
> improvement of battery energy density (w.r.t. Li-ion) before the range can be matched with equal power and equal weight.
But the tractor only needs a battery that'll last a few minutes.
> Battery tech IS competitive for passenger vehicles,
Which must run _much_ longer times between charging than the tractor.
> although even there we need to compromise on the driving range (hence PHEVs). So
> from all the vehicles around, tractors have a lower chance of going full-electric for a while.
They have a _better_ chance because they never go very far.
> Different story for electric-drive tractors. Electric-drive (such as used in diesel-electric locomotives) does save fuel, increases
> torch, and simplifies operation.
> Caterpillar has at least one of these fuel savers :http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=5853
OK, then we're ready to install a wire and electrify the farm!
Kudos for Cat!
> Smaller tractors (lawn-mowers and other etc) could actually go electric rather easily.
There are no negative economies of scale here.
> > I already provided one difference: �The tractor battery only needs a
> > charge that will last a few minutes, an order of magnitude less time
> > than the hybrid.
> True, if it needs to re-charge during the work day.
> 10 recharges during a work-day would compensate for the 10X difference in battery tech.
> So your idea might work IF the farmer finds it acceptable to re-charge 10X per work day.
What other choice does he have?
Running diesel from Mexico 20X times/day?
And even _that_ ridiculous solution cannot last long because the
governors of the border estados have started going to Mexico City to
whine that they cannot handle the demand caused by gringo farmers.
It's a whole lot easier and more cost effective to just go electric.
This diesel nonsense is for the birds.
Bret Cahill
John Larkin
wrote:
Who wastes $100b a year on diesel?
John
phil hays
> The problem in the real world is things go wrong.
So? Horses bolt and/or kick. Everything has risks and costs, can't avoid
either, so need to pick the best compromise.
> A steam tractor would have a much higher initial cost and require much
> more maintence and training necessary than even an ICE. Unless you had
> a steam - electric hybrid the load couldn't be changed rapidly. Either
> you waste steam or time. Algae diesel is more promising.
Hmm, I almost mentioned various biodiesel options as well. Both steam and
biodiesel seems better to me than an battery powered tractor. I'd guess
both would be cheaper initial cost.
Suppose we have a 240 kW tractor. This would be similar to common diesel
tractors. If we run it for a row and then recharge after a mile at the
same rate as it was discharged, we need to charge the batteries at
something over 240 kW. To put this in perspective, many houses in the USA
are limited at 24 kW. Such a house is supplied with 240 V at a maximum
current of 100 A. 240 V is hazardous to handle, and 100 A requires large
cables well connected. Both would be problems in a field environment. And
we need more than ten times as much power.
Ever drive a tractor, say pulling a disk? Load doesn't change hardly at
all, all day. Same speed, about the same pull, no problem at all for a
steam tractor. Yes, more labor running one than an ICE, but after the oil
is gone...
Biodiesel requires specific fuels, rather than anything from straw to
wood, but would have other advantages, such as higher power to weight
ratios.
Biofueled tractors win over horses and oxen both on fuel consumption and
less labor needed to farm. Probably safer as well. Battery powered
tractors are not competitive.
--
Phil Hays
BretC...@peoplepc.com
Hundreds of feet of "fire tube" that needs to be cleaned every time
you try to burn biomass.
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html
"Still, it's easy to see why steam failed. When you bought a Doble,
you got a list of things your chauffeur was supposed to do every
week.
Nobody would stand for weekly maintenance these days. Plus, you've
got
to carry steam oil, water and gasoline."
And that's burning the _clean_ stuff.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
>
> > But far more complicated, more expensive, required more maintenance
> > and is less efficient than than an electic motor powered by bio mass
> > burned at a power plant.
>
> umm, hasn't this argument degenerated to whther the steam boiler is large
> one at a power station or lots of little ones in paddocks?
Hopefully.
Economies of scale make the power plant much safer.
Bret Cahill
Rob Dekker
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news:p03d84lmmg67locue...@4ax.com...
....
>>It's more likely that we will move to no-till agriculture.
>>
>
> Lots of things are practical if yoy kill off about 96% of the
> population first.
>
Not sure why you change the topic.
My remark was serious : Farmers in the United States already use no-till methods on 37 percent of the nation's cropland. It's likely
to increase, since there are many benefits.
Only one of these benefits is less fuel needed (since no plowing is done).
Rob
John Fields
wrote:
>> >> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
>> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>>
>> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>>
>> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>>
>> >> >This should be common knowledge.
>>
>> >> >Bret Cahill
>>
>> >> Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.
>>
>> >> Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
>> >> Consider charging it in one minute.
>>
>> >> See the problem?
>>
>> >No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
>> >year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.
>>
>> ---
>> Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???
>
>The Issue has _always been_ liquid fuel costs.
---
Sorry, Charlie, nice try but the issue at the moment, brought up by
JL, is whether you can appreciate the economics of battery charging.
You're obviously clueless and decided to side-step by changing the
subject.
No matter, I'll explain it to you a little later on and then you can
claim you knew it all along, OK?
---
>There is no reason to electrify the farms if diesel wasn't spiraling.
---
Blah, blah, blah...
---
>> If a battery with a capacity of 2 AH (120 ampere-minutes) needs to be
>> recharged in two minutes, then you've got to fill it back up with the
>> same amount of electricity, but you've only got 2 minutes to do it in,
>> so you've got to pump it in faster than it came out. ?
>
>And it "came out" in 6 - 10 minutes.
>
>The tractor is moving 6 - 10 mph.
---
So how long would you want to wait for the battery to charge up?
One minute? you'd still have to pump in at least 6 times as much
current as came out.
For 400 horsepower, the power into the motor would be:
400HP * 746W
P = ------------- = 298 400 watts
HP
and the current required from a 300V battery pack would be:
P 298 400W
Iout = --- = ---------- ~ 995 amperes
E 300V
Therefore, if you ran the machine for six minutes and recharged it for
one, The current into the battery would have to be:
Iout * Tout 995A * 360s
Iin = ------------- = ------------- = 5970 amperes
Tin 60s
Typically, to charge a battery fully you've got to put in 1.4 times as
much energy as you took out, which would increase that 5970 amperes to
about 6400 amperes.
Now, when you consider that that electricity has to come from
_somewhere_ and that is has to be brought into the field using
conductors of finite resistance, then the problem becomes even more
severe.
---
>Alternatively, if the tractor is moving slowly, then it won't require
>400 hp, and you'll _still_ have a short charging time.
---
You were the one who stipulated 400HP and now you're back-pedaling?
Typical trick for someone who doesn't know what he's talking about to
try to get off the hook.
---
>You keep trying to dodge the fundamental reason this is a better
>application of batteries than the wildly popular plug in hybrids:
---
Me???
All I've done is taken numbers that you've supplied and shown you why
what you advocate is impractical.
You, on the other hand, keep trying to move the goal posts in order to
try to make your position seem tenable.
---
>Unlike EVs or plug ins the tractor never goes very far from the
>charger.
---
It doesn't make any difference. Coulombs is coulombs and if you want
to fill a battery up in 1/10th the time it took to discharge it you'll
have to pump in ten times as much current during that time. More,
even, because there's no free lunch. See above.
---
>The batteries can therefore be small and cheap and have short charging
>times.
---
How small?
How cheap?
How short a charging time?
You obviously have no clue and know _nothing_ about battery chemistry.
---
>And we haven't gotten to the favorable torque/rpm curve of electric
>motors which allows a much smaller hp motor.
---
As if you knew anything about it before another poster bought it up.
Get on with it, then.
Let's see your analysis.
JF
John Fields
wrote:
>Paying $100 billion a year for diesel for agriculture will _starve_
>the population.
---
Got some numbers?
JF
John Fields
wrote:
>> >> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
---
But it's not the issue presently, what is is whether you understand
the economics of battery charging. You obviously don't and changed
the subject in order to skirt it.
JF
John Fields
wrote:
---
You're a fucking idiot and you're losing the argument.
JF
John Fields
wrote:
>> >>> >Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
>> >>> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>>
>> >>> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>>
>> >>> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>>
>> >>> ---
>> >>> And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.
>>
>> >>The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
>> >>doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done.
>>
>> > ---
>> > Really?
>>
>> > Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour, would need a battery
>> > which can supply about 300KWH, (300 000 watt-hours) and if it's doing
>> > it with an output voltage of 300V that means it needs to be rated for
>> > an output of 1000AH at C/1.
>>
>> > That's a lot of watt-hours and a lot of work done.
>>
>> True.
>
>Not true.
>
>The tractor only needs to make one "lap" between charges -- a few
>minutes.
---
Did you miss the posts about when a tractor goes 0.5 MPH?
---
>Any argument for plug ins is an *a fortiori* argument for grid-battery
>powered tractors.
---
Just like any argument for bug zappers is an a fortiori argument for
the electric chair?
JF
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >> > Ploughing, broad acre sowing, harvesting.
> >> Also a process I believe is called sub-soiling where a large machine turns
> >> the soil from about 5 feet below the surface.
> >Then call in a service company with a bigger battery.
There are dozens of farm service companies in agricultural areas
because the reality is no farmer needs the same equipment 24/7/52.
For example, if a farmer needed his 400 hp articulated tractor going
0.5 mph 356 days out of the year then he'ld be working about 10
feet^2 / sec.
That 774 hours or over 3 months of 8 hour days to complete just one
square mile.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> Ploughing, broad acre sowing, harvesting.
Then to do just one square at 0.5 mph:
Diesel: 17,000 gallons.
Diesel cost today: $85,000
Assuming the price of liquid fuel continues to increase at "only" 30%
a year:
Diesel cost in 2 years: $145,000
Diesel cost in 6 years: $425,000
And that's just one one time operation.
It's a whole lot cheaper to electrify, even if you have to buy 14,000
laptop batteries (twice that of the 200 kW Tesla) and install them
yourself.
Bret Cahill
terryc
> Paying $100 billion a year for diesel for agriculture will _starve_
> the population.
Just another tool in the fight against obesity.
terryc
> It's more likely that we will move to no-till agriculture.
Do you actually kno what no till agriculture is?
Hint, it involves a sod seeder instead of a combine & ploughing.
terryc
> Typically, to charge a battery fully you've got to put in 1.4 times as
> much energy as you took out, which would increase that 5970 amperes to
> about 6400 amperes.
Err, is this something to do with fast charging?
Heard 110% for C/10 in dep-discharge lead acid batteries, but not that
much.
terryc
notie this paragraph after I flicked the other answer....
> Now, when you consider that that electricity has to come from
> _somewhere_ and that is has to be brought into the field using
> conductors of finite resistance, then the problem becomes even more
> severe.
So instead of 415V supply, you just tap the 11Kv lines instead.
terryc
> There are dozens of farm service companies in agricultural areas
> because the reality is no farmer needs the same equipment 24/7/52.
Lol, the problem with this idea is that farmers producing the same crop
generally all do the same job at the same time.
terryc
> It's a whole lot cheaper to electrify, even if you have to buy 14,000
> laptop batteries (twice that of the 200 kW Tesla) and install them
> yourself.
Actually, your system might work better if the tractor camewith a pair of
swappable battery packs that you dock in and out of a charging station.
It would certainly help the economics by reducing the peak power demands.
terryc
> True. But technically speaking, a 300 kWh battery is not completely rediculous : It will cost about $100,000 wholesale, and weigh
> less than 2 ton.
Well, that is an interesting battery advancement.
For current deep-discharge lead acid, it would weigh 84 tonnes.
In LiPoly,it would currently weigh 20 tonnes.
John Fields
---
How would you do that?
JF
John Fields
<newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:23:06 -0500, John Fields wrote:
>
>> Typically, to charge a battery fully you've got to put in 1.4 times as
>> much energy as you took out, which would increase that 5970 amperes to
>> about 6400 amperes.
>
>Err, is this something to do with fast charging?
---
No, it's the typical coulometric charge-discharge characteristic of a
flooded lead-acid battery.
---
>Heard 110% for C/10 in dep-discharge lead acid batteries, but not that
>much.
---
It can go higher for SLAs, according to:
http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm
JF
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> > the population.
> Just another tool in the fight against obesity.
What'll happen is they'll get together more often, i. e., public
transportation, and eat even more.
Bret Cahill
BretC...@peoplepc.com
> >> >recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.
>
> >> >All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.
>
> >> >The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.
>
>
> >> >Bret Cahill
>
> >> Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.
>
> >> Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
> >> Consider charging it in one minute.
>
> >> See the problem?
>
> >No, at least nothing compared to the problem of paying $30 billion a
> >year -- soon to be $100 billion/yr -- for diesel used in agriculture.
>
> ---
> Avoiding the issue by changing the subject, are we???
The OP issue is the tens of billions a year unnecessarily wasted on
diesel for agriculture.
That's the context, the _only_ reason for electrification of farms.
Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stoopid?
Bret Cahill