Account Options

  1. Sign in
The old Google Groups will be going away soon, but your browser is incompatible with the new version.
Google Groups Home
« Groups Home
Florman on "engineering ethics" summarized
There are currently too many topics in this group that display first. To make this topic appear first, remove this option from another topic.
There was an error processing your request. Please try again.
flag
  3 messages - Collapse all  -  Translate all to Translated (View all originals)
The group you are posting to is a Usenet group. Messages posted to this group will make your email address visible to anyone on the Internet.
Your reply message has not been sent.
Your post was successful
 
From:
To:
Cc:
Followup To:
Add Cc | Add Followup-to | Edit Subject
Subject:
Validation:
For verification purposes please type the characters you see in the picture below or the numbers you hear by clicking the accessibility icon. Listen and type the numbers you hear
 
Christopher Wright  
View profile  
 More options Jan 22 1996, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.engr
From: chr...@skypoint.com (Christopher Wright)
Date: 1996/01/22
Subject: Re: Florman on "engineering ethics" summarized
In article <22JAN199617281...@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>,

ecax...@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) wrote:
> Why will there be no unified code of ethics?
>...
> And clauses pertaining to these, in proposed codes, have either been
> voted down or watered down.  Which is why there's no code of ethics.

The ASME has a Code of ethics. And all the state engineering boards have
set forth rules for professional conduct as part of the registration laws.
There sure are ethical codes governing ethical practice out there which
have been tested in the courts.

> This goes to failures.

Where failures are connected with some sort of culpable negligence, the
courts have set forth points of law on all these matters. Litigous society
notwithstanding, negligence in product design is well defined. The key to
the whole thing is that most engineers practice corporately; they're
really only following orders. (Really, not like Goering or Kaltenbrunner
or Eichmann) When engineering practice reaches a level of autonomy, then
you'll have the basis for holding someone accountable for negligent
design.

BTW, I don't have the guts to post this to sci.engr. because I can stand
another thread as full of ignorant bombast as the responses to the
'Engineer as professional' posting over the last few months. I'd rather
listen to Newt whine through his nose about the sanctity of married life.
On second thought, I'd rather stick my head in the gas grill. ;->

--
Christopher Wright P.E.    |"They couldn't hit an elephant from
chr...@skypoint.com        | this distance" (last words of Gen.
Voice phone (612)933-6182  | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania 1864)


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Ron Graham  
View profile  
 More options Jan 22 1996, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.engr
From: ecax...@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Date: 1996/01/22
Subject: Florman on "engineering ethics" summarized
Florman's book, _The Civilized Engineer_, dedicates three chapters
to the subject of engineering ethics.  I'm going to summarize those
chapters here, pretty much as a response to a sci.engr reader who
suggested last week that we needed a "sci.engr.ethics" spinoff.

His most fundamental ideas on the subject appear to be as follows:

Chapter 6: There won't be a unified code of engineering ethics,
           because the engineers won't agree on it.
Chapter 7: The engineers themselves will not be given the chance to
           regulate their own behavior, because laws do a better job.
Chapter 8: Diligence and competence are more crucial to the engineer
           than what we think of as morality.

Why will there be no unified code of ethics?  Because we can't agree
on even first principles:

- WHAT is the public interest?
- HOW is it to be served?
- WHO is to regulate our code?

Nevertheless, there has been in recent years a surge of interest on
the subject -- even to the point of college programs (and degrees)
in engineering ethics being offered, starting pretty much in the 80's.
Ethics tend to arise in the career of the individual engineer when a
conflict is recognized between professional and corporate obligation.
And that conflict tends to chiefly arise when a failure, or risk of
failure, is involved.  (Not that the conflict ever arises -- for some
of us, it never does.)

When engineering societies (or the AAES, for instance) have tried to
address the issue of a code of ethics, the following related subtopics
come up:

- disclosure of conflicts of interest
- improvement of the legal climate for the engineering profession
- support for education in safety and risk
- protection to the whistleblower
- service to worthy causes

And clauses pertaining to these, in proposed codes, have either been
voted down or watered down.  Which is why there's no code of ethics.

There has been a great increase in the number (and scope) of laws
regulating various aspects of the profession in the USA since 1970.  
Most of these involve safeguarding public safety, but also addressed
are confidentiality, industrial secrets and intellectual property.

You pretty much have to have these not just to govern the engineers,
but to protect them as well.  Otherwise, industrial competition
dictates that corners may be cut to get the product out the door.
(Consider Kidder, _The Soul of a New Machine_.)  Now there's a whole
science established around the definition of "acceptable risk."  Laws
can dictate what corners are allowed to be cut.  (Although those who
make the laws, considering they don't know engineering, can screw
that up -- consider the teeth being extracted during the current US
presidential and congressional administration of the Fastener Design
law signed by George Bush early in the 90's.)  In the case of liability,
all good intentions come to naught.  Quality ends up being defined as
"adherence to requirements" -- and hopefully, we got the requirements
right.

This goes to failures.  Florman shows that more than half of all
celebrated engineering failures can be attributed to some form of human
unreliability (again, not necessarily a "failure of the engineers"
to do the best they can) -- many of them could have been caught with
even *one inspection*.  Florman's point: the great ethical need of
engineers is competence.  "The greatest threats to moral engineering
are carelessness, sloppiness, laziness and lack of concentration."
The greatest likelihood of danger to the public from engineers comes
not from evil intent, but from miscalculation.

Here are some conflicts faced by the individual engineer:

- make the product safer v. make it more economical
- protect the environment v. use the available resources
- promote the military v. disarmament
- make food safer via pesticides v. protect all levels of the food chain
- drill for oil offshore v. protect beaches
- work for other people (or nations) who don't share your views but need
  your services

These conflicts can be broken down to *how the engineer feels* about
the military, the environment, product safety, etc. -- which are (and
according to Florman, need to be) political concerns, best decided by
society as a whole.  And how the engineer feels isn't any different
than how anyone else feels, right?

Is there enough stuff here to start to build a FAQ?  Or do we have
to agree on how we feel to even have a FAQ?  :-)

Ron

"We've got quality control only equalled by NASA!!!"
 -  Jack Lemmon, as engineer Jack Godell, "The China Syndrome"


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Ron Graham  
View profile  
 More options Jan 23 1996, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.engr
From: ecax...@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Date: 1996/01/23
Subject: Re: Florman on "engineering ethics" summarized
In article <chrisw-2201962237190...@dial030.skypoint.net>,
     chr...@skypoint.com (Christopher Wright) writes...

>In article <22JAN199617281...@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>,
>ecax...@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) wrote:
>> Why will there be no unified code of ethics?  [...]
>> And clauses pertaining to these, in proposed codes, have either been
>> voted down or watered down.  Which is why there's no code of ethics.
>The ASME has a Code of ethics. And all the state engineering boards have
>set forth rules for professional conduct as part of the registration laws.
>There sure are ethical codes governing ethical practice out there which
>have been tested in the courts.

I must try to be a little clearer on this.  What Florman was talking
about was a "unified code of ethics" governing the behaviour of all
engineers in all disciplines.  As of that writing (1987), IEEE had its
code as well.  Now, Florman pointed out some of the contributions of
individual societies to the attempts by the AAES to write the unified
code -- but he also made it clear that, since only one-third of US
engineers belong to professional societies, those societies don't
accurately reflect the views of, or speak to the needs of, all engineers.

>> This goes to failures.
>Where failures are connected with some sort of culpable negligence, the
>courts have set forth points of law on all these matters. Litigous society
>notwithstanding, negligence in product design is well defined. The key to
>the whole thing is that most engineers practice corporately; they're
>really only following orders. (Really, not like Goering or Kaltenbrunner
>or Eichmann) When engineering practice reaches a level of autonomy, then
>you'll have the basis for holding someone accountable for negligent design.

Which is precisely what your consulting PE offers.  Like you!  :-) :-) :-)

Ron

"Wilson Countersink Flanges: because when you've got hydraulic torque
 leak-through, every second can mean lost prantkens!"
 -  from Saturday Night Live, 03/13/93


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
End of messages
« Back to Discussions « Newer topic     Older topic »