Linear LEDs for under water
Thomas Paterson
As a followup to my earlier post about the reflecting pond, we have a
solution worked out involving linear LEDs across the width of the pool.
It works well in models and seems to be pretty slick. We're trying to
find the right LED product and could do with some recommendations.
The product needs to be submersible, (only to about 8"). It should be
a slim extrusion with a row of LEDs with narrow beam reflectors (10°
or less). LED color needs to be between 2700K and 3100K, although
variance is less important than mean, for this particular application.
We need to be able to apply a custom finish to the back of the
extrusion and it needs to be washable.
Ideally control gear could be quite remote, although I can work around
this.
Many thanks,
Thomas.
Boxman
are asking is from Color Kinetics
http://www.colorkinetics.com/products/pro/lights/iwcast14/
I'm not sure whether that meets your needs entirely.
These units http://www.visinst.com/LEDLighting.html wouldn't be
submersible as is, so they would probably require a custom housing to
be developed to use them in your application.
Otherwise, you are probably looking at cobbling together the system
yourself. For example Lumileds sells linear arrays of their high
brightness white LEDs (http://www.luxeonstar.com/), and you can get
optics already installed or you can buy some from a company like Fraen
(also shown on that page) to help shape your beam. You would then need
the control electronics and the mechanical housing to protect it in the
application.
Maybe others know of available products out there.
SQLit
"Thomas Paterson" <t_p_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131671513.0...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear All,
Many thanks,
Thomas.
Not at all what your asking for
Underwater, pool, and humans says to me UL Listed, and GFCI protected at the
very mininium.
Personally I will not swim in a pool/spa with the light on. I figure that my
life is worth more than the $10 GFCI that is protecting the circuit. Sorry I
do not distinguish between line voltage and low voltage. Light on my ass is
dry. I have difficulty with my brothers stereo speakers on the edge of the
spa.
I suggest you check into fiber optics. No electricity at all in the water,
easily serviced out side the pool. Have you ever tried to change the bulb
in a wet niche fixture? Try that some time when the water is below 60 F
degrees.
Adam Aglionby
Thomas Paterson wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> As a followup to my earlier post about the reflecting pond, we have a
> solution worked out involving linear LEDs across the width of the pool.
> It works well in models and seems to be pretty slick. We're trying to
> find the right LED product and could do with some recommendations.
>
> The product needs to be submersible, (only to about 8"). It should be
> a slim extrusion with a row of LEDs with narrow beam reflectors (10°
> or less).
Presume high power LED e.g. Luxeon Star or Cree X-Lamp 1W+ devices?
10 degrees circular or in one axis eliptical?
> LED color needs to be between 2700K and 3100K, although
> variance is less important than mean, for this particular application.
Trickier, warm white LEDs in 5mm size are inconsisitent to put it
politely, LEDs in warm white and indeed any white can age in
differently. Big LEDs in warm white are around but newer phosphor mix
with less time actual running yet....
Does it need to be white, a non phosphor colour can give better lumens
per watt and more predictable longetivity.
> We need to be able to apply a custom finish to the back of the
> extrusion and it needs to be washable.
Load of big LEDs will run fairly warm, custom finish be better as paint
than some sort of pond sealing and insulating mastic. Plastics or glass
for front face of fixture?
>
> Ideally control gear could be quite remote, although I can work around
> this.
Big LEDs because of high current demands need regulator close to them,
integral to the extrusion but fed with a suitably isolated LV 12/24
remote power supply.
Dunno if CK have a product that fits, if its within the US limits the
choice a bit though...
Adam
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Thomas.
Adam Aglionby
SQLit wrote:
> Underwater, pool, and humans says to me UL Listed, and GFCI protected at the
> very mininium.
> Personally I will not swim in a pool/spa with the light on. I figure that my
> life is worth more than the $10 GFCI that is protecting the circuit. Sorry I
> do not distinguish between line voltage and low voltage.
Train set 12V open rails, LEDs actual operating voltage is <5V,
transformer isolated low voltage is about as safe as using a battery
powered item. Cell phone battery is only about 3.2V but dinnae short it
out by accident...
>Light on my ass is
> dry. I have difficulty with my brothers stereo speakers on the edge of the
> spa.
Unlikely to give you a discernable nip, depends if you attach wires
either side of lips ;-
>
> I suggest you check into fiber optics. No electricity at all in the water,
> easily serviced out side the pool.
One possible solution, still have HV illuminators to mount somewhere
reasonably close though.
Adam
Clive Mitchell
Aglionby <ledl...@gmail.com> writes
>Trickier, warm white LEDs in 5mm size are inconsisitent to put it
>politely, LEDs in warm white and indeed any white can age in
>differently. Big LEDs in warm white are around but newer phosphor mix
>with less time actual running yet....
Is there such a thing as a good warm white LED yet? Any I've bought so
far have been some hideous shade that exhibits no visual warmth
whatsoever.
--
Clive Mitchell
http:/www.bigclive.com
Ian Stirling
Lumileds do 'warm white' LEDs.
Slightly less efficiant than the normal.
It looks warm white to me.
Thomas Paterson
Hi Clive,
There are pretty good warm white LEDs, I've spec'ed about 20,000 on a
project in the middle east, 1W luxeon 2700K. Fortunately, they were
spec'ed two years ahead of needing to be on site, because it takes them
that long to bin enough of the right ones with the minimal variation
that I needed. They also cost quite a bit (several hundred thousand
dollars). You CAN get them, but you really have to push for the right
product and be prepared to pay for them.
In general terms, I regard LEDs as evil subversive technologies that
undermine good design.
But I do use them occassionally - for example, when they are submerged,
and therefore, cool.
Thomas.
Thomas Paterson
> Presume high power LED e.g. Luxeon Star or Cree X-Lamp 1W+ devices?
> 10 degrees circular or in one axis eliptical?
I had exactly that in mind, although not so sure about eliptical, as I
don't want to scatter light too much.
> > LED color needs to be between 2700K and 3100K, although
> > variance is less important than mean, for this particular application.
>
> Trickier, warm white LEDs in 5mm size are inconsisitent to put it
> politely, LEDs in warm white and indeed any white can age in
> differently. Big LEDs in warm white are around but newer phosphor mix
> with less time actual running yet....
Fortunately, I'm lighting a bed of shiny pebbles under water, so it is
sparkle I'm going for. A bit (or a lot) of color variation is fine by
me in this application. Ah, how I love being indescriminate.
> Does it need to be white, a non phosphor colour can give better lumens
> per watt and more predictable longetivity.
I want it to look reasonably natural (in so far as pebbles sparkling
under water looks natural) so white it is.
> Load of big LEDs will run fairly warm, custom finish be better as paint
> than some sort of pond sealing and insulating mastic. Plastics or glass
> for front face of fixture?
Not sure about materials yet, it'll depend on the manufacturer. I
think they'll be fine for heat as water conducts heat about 25 times
better than air - this is probably close to the optimum scenario for
keeping LEDs cool.
> Dunno if CK have a product that fits, if its within the US limits the
> choice a bit though...
The problem with CK is the lack of optics in their linear products.
Crescent has one, but it is IP67 not IP68.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks Adam.
Simon Waldman
> The problem with CK is the lack of optics in their linear products.
> Crescent has one, but it is IP67 not IP68.
ICBW, but I thought the Crescent was optionally IP68 - don't they just
fill it up with resin or something? Even if not, might be worth asking
them whether they can make the product submersible...
--
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the
initiative in creating the Internet." - Al Gore, 1999
---------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Waldman, UK email: swal...@firecloud.org.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------
Clive Mitchell
Thomas Paterson <t_p_pa...@hotmail.com> writes
>In general terms, I regard LEDs as evil subversive technologies that
>undermine good design.
So true. I was a guest lecturer at the Glasgow School of Art last week
and sat in on a "crit" where the design students presented their concept
for new lights. Quite a few had chosen to design their products around
Luxeon stars in the belief that they put out huge amounts of light for
virtually no power. I soon put them right on that and pointed them in
the direction of the actual most appropriate light source for their
designs.
I also educated them in the use of series resistors with LEDs since they
had fallen into the trap of believing they can just slap any old LED
across a 3V battery or wall wart.
Other than the slight technical details the general quality of their
designs was superb. They had some really fresh ideas. (Which I'm
obviously not going to discuss.)
MPJ
You might want to check the underwater lighting products from Pentair.
I understand that they are one of the largest pool lighting
manufacturers in the US. Click the Lighting link on the following
website:
Thomas Paterson
> Thomas Paterson wrote:
>
> ICBW, but I thought the Crescent was optionally IP68 - don't they just
> fill it up with resin or something? Even if not, might be worth asking
> them whether they can make the product submersible...
Hi Simon,
Yeah, the version without optic is IP68 because they can pot in the
LEDs directly. The one with optic is limited to IP67 because of the
control of the potting resin when setting in the reflector. They are
looking at hand sealing each one for me and then potting the lot once
sealed. Crescent are very good when it comes to customs and mods, so
it will be interested to see where it goes.
Thomas.
Adam Aglionby
Have to watch out for keeping differiing refravtive indexes if potting
optics, the PMMA optics used on Luxeons acts as much as a reflector as
a lens. X-Lamp has a good pattern for reflector use and is machine
solderable....
Adam
Thomas Paterson
Do you have a link to X-Lamp specs and manufacturers who integrate
them?
Thanks,
Thomas.
Ian Stirling
> Hi Adam,
>
> Do you have a link to X-Lamp specs and manufacturers who integrate
> them?
Cree.
Adam Aglionby
http://www.cree.com/Products/lightleds.htm
CK is switching its allegiance to X-Lamp from Luxeon at some point
soon. Wonder if lower production costs from machine soldering X-Lamp
instead of hand soldering Luxeons will be passed along...
More competitition in big LED land should help bring pricing lower and
advancements quicker, some of which CK may let US buyers purchase.
Adam