welding helmet
tony stramella
for.For example,what range of filter settings,speed of lens
darkening.types of batteries or solar powered and anything else I should
consider.
Grant Erwin
Mine has filter settings 10-14, or when the filter is powered off, it's about a
5 or 6, like burning goggles. I haven't ever needed anything else. However, mine
is a bit older and you can't buy it anymore (Speedglas XL).
Consider the cost and availability of plastic cover plates. You have to cover
the (very expensive) lens with plastic cover plates and if you have an oddball
helmet they may be hard to get or they may be pricey.
Consider starting with the Harbor Freight helmet. They are said to work OK and
are a whole *lot* cheaper than anything else.
GWE
Speechless
I use the Swiss Made Optrel helmets. I have both of these:
http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/html/Subcategories/optrel/optrel.htm
http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/html/Subcategories/optrel/twisty.htm
I'm very happy with them.
Brent Philion
I haver a miller helmet because all my welding dealer had in was it or a
dale earnhart signature one at 150% of the price and the two helmets
were idential other than the paintjob and price
But when it comes to safety I honestly believe that you cannot buy
something too expensive to protect your eyes my eyes are worth anything
of the difference
Dont skimp ont the cost of a good helmet (agreed in my case dale
earnharts signature wasnt worht the 100 extra for the same helmet but i
love using the autodark i have especially since i do a lot of low
amperage tig work with frequent stops and restarts on short beads
Guy Morin
A few things to remember, all autodarkening helmets use batteries. I
sufferred the loss of my Optrel satellite. It was dissappointing to have
it go, and to observe the replacement cost of the module, which was only
slightly cheaper than getting a new helmet. The batteries are embedded
in the module, and can't be replaced. It was taken apart, and could only
be serviced with a milling machine, knowing exactly where to cut and a
lot of patience. Results would likely not be great. Eventually, all
batteries will fail, even though they are topped up by the solar panel.
So, I purchased a Speedglas. The batteries are user replaceable. The
Speedglas has a better lens, but lacks the exterior shade adjustability
of the Optrel which is a marginal benefit. You have to take the
Speedglas off to change the settings. The Speedglas also has slight
misfit between tho silver cover and the bottom of the mating helmet,
allowing some light to penetrate. Some tape can fix the issue. The
Speedglas does have better breathing than the Optrel. The Speedglas
shade and delay settings are clever, and seem to work better than the
Optrel. The lens also seems to be of better quality with no banding, or
edge effects.
The Speedglas uses protective lens covers both inside and outside. I
can't remember if the Optrel allows for interior lens covers. It doesn't
seem like a big deal for it to have the notches in the module. Some of
the lower cost helmets don't have the protective lens options, this can
be an issue.
The head fixture on the Speedglas isn't as nice as the Optrel, and I
wound up cannibalizing the Optrel's to fit the Speedglas. The Speedglas
harness is a bit floppy for my taste. Using the Optrel harness means
that the helmet can't flip anymore, but it can be brought to perfect
distance from the eyes now, increasing the field of view and decreasing
the light leakage from below the chip. More time could be spent making
the Optrel harness work properly, but another fix turned out better than
expected, read on.
All helmets suffer from heating of the user's face or head, and fogging
of the lens. These are the main reasons you have to lift it off after
welding. Controlled breathing is a solution, but isn't great. The true
remedy is to buy a miniature fan, and to power it with a 9V battery that
is affixed to the top harness head strap with a section of inner tube. A
small fixture can be made with sheetmetal to support the fan above the
lens, to blow air downward. The Speedglas has a couple of bosses
perfectly located to do the job. This is the best thing imaginable. No
more unbearable heat during welding, no more fogging of the lens, and
lots of fresh air. The 9V battery seems to last for over twenty hours at
present, though I haven't timed the burn. It seems to be convenient
enough. The helmet stays on most of the time since the unbearable heat
is gone, and this reduces the need to wipe perspiration and condensation
from the lens. It also keep the head cool, and increases productivity.
You can see well enough through the lens, especially with the Optrel
harness, so you can keep motoring on.
The fan is a comair-rotron 25mm square model 12V. The part number for
digi-key is CR011-ND. The comair part number is CR0212LB-G70. It appears
to fit perfectly between the headgear and the lens, even when using the
Optrel headgear which sits closer to the lens than the Speedglas
hardware. On the subject of the fan, you do need to manage your hair to
keep it out of the fan. It isn't hard, but one has to be mindful.
There are many other models of auto darkening helmets. Remember that
some of the features in the pricier models do address safety concerns
and ergonomics. The Speedglas for example has "off" shading that
protects your eyes if you forget to turn it on. When you turn the helmet
on, the lens goes a bit clearer, and then gives you whatever shade is
programmed when activated by the arc. The photodiodes on the Speedglas
are better located than the Optrel, and provide more consistent shade
activation in difficult welding situations, especially with pipe and
complex fixtures. The Optrel is always on, which is a benefit.
As with all auto darkening helmets, always keep a spare set of batteries
around, or a regular helmet as a backup. As great as auto darkening
helmets are, it is a downer when the batteries go.
Best,
Guy
Diamond Jim
"Guy Morin" <xn...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:43B661B0...@videotron.ca...
SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP
> A few things to remember, all autodarkening helmets use batteries.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Guy
SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP-----SNIP
----------------------------------
Is that a fact?
I guess my solar powered auto-darkening welding helmet doesn't exist then.
Guy Morin
My Optrel solar powered auto-darkening welding helmet also existed. The
batteries were embedded inside the cartridge. It took some forceful
disassembly to get to them, but sure enough, there they were. I've kept
the parts, so if you need some pictures to relieve your incredulity,
please advise. My welding rep also said that it was solar powered, blah,
blah, blah, caveat emptor.
No matter what the cartridges use, there has to be some form of energy
storage to power the device when there is no direct sunlight or welding
flash, this means some form of capacitor, battery, or other life-cycle
limited device. If there wasn't any energy storage, you probably could
not get the crisp response since the circuits would have to power-up
before enabling the shade. Also, some form of memory is needed to store
the shade settings, delay, and other useful settings. These things don't
fall from the sky. Most capacitors have finite life and will degrade
over time, as with all batteries.
So much for the solar powered, and, wink, wink, battery powered
auto-darkening welding helmet.
Laws should be enacted to protect the consumer against such
misrepresentations.
Hope you don't feel too disappointed when those batteries go south. It
can take over five years with good illumination.
What did you think of the fan?
Best,
Guy
Speechless
>Hope you don't feel too disappointed when those batteries go south. It
>can take over five years with good illumination.
>
Five years? Really? I consider myself lucky if I get two years of
service out of a good quality helmet, whether it be Speedglas or
Optrel. Welding helmets are meant to be used, not placed on a mantel
to be admired.
Auto-dark helemts are more fragile than the manual flip-up types.
Accidently drop one and its life expectancy is cut on half, no matter
what brand, if it still works -- just a cost of doing business if you
want the convenience. There is much to be said for applying the KISS
principle and using a manual flip-up type if the environment you work
in is hostile to fancy electronics, besides, replacing a standard #10
filter is much less expensive than replacing a proprietary auto-dark
cartridge, especially if you are on a project in the middle of
nowhere.
Guy Morin
Uh, I figured I couldn't win regarding the specification of time, either
way. Hence the use of "can". Apparently, some representatives have
indicated that having the cells exposed to light can be of benefit in
maintaining the batteries in a high charge state, which is conducive to
prolonging their lives. It does mean paying attention to the helmet, and
taking care of it. If you leave it in an unlit trailer with the rest of
your gear, the batteries are going to go much faster. Wear and tear are
also big factors.
We agree that in practical terms, and especially given the environment
in which welding equipment is used, fragile protective equipment can
easily come to grief. As for leaving it on the mantle, we also agree.
The convenience is lost if it doesn't get used. This being written, it
is possible to give the helmet a good home when not in use. Whether this
means building a decent box if you're on the road, or a proper mounting
bracket that puts the helmet in the vicinity of a window to maximize
battery charge state, the user can take care of such gear. Finding a
decent home, especially on the road, is a must. Too many things can
happen in the best of environments.
Helmet manufacturers have put effort in making the helmets lighter. This
makes them more fragile and increases comfort.
This is also why I didn't mind eliminating the flip portion of the
headgear by using the Optrel hardware. It seems to me that most
accidents happen when one forgets the helmet is up there flapping about
with a raised profile. When I do take it off, I have to be mindful of
where I set it down. The box, the bracket, or some other hospitable
spot.
Given all these factors, having a backup is a must. I've grown fond of
the larger window helmets as a backup since they seem to be more
versatile. It also seems that failures happen when you really need the
convenience of the auto-darkening, either because you can't swing your
head, or you're lying down, or some other situation that really makes a
regular helmet a pain. A good working light is a must when having to use
a regular helmet in difficult places.
Any thoughts on the fan?
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>
>A few things to remember, all autodarkening helmets use batteries.
Not true. Shrug
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>No matter what the cartridges use, there has to be some form of energy
>storage to power the device when there is no direct sunlight or welding
>flash, this means some form of capacitor, battery, or other life-cycle
>limited device.
This is indeed true. Though capacitors tend to live very long and full
lives.
Speechless
wrote:
> Apparently, some representatives have
>indicated that having the cells exposed to light can be of benefit in
>maintaining the batteries in a high charge state, which is conducive to
>prolonging their lives. It does mean paying attention to the helmet, and
>taking care of it. If you leave it in an unlit trailer with the rest of
>your gear, the batteries are going to go much faster.
Correct, but...
A solar cell powered helmet is just that -- it has no battery.
The liquid crystal filter is powered directly by the solar cell which
gets its energy from light waves generated by the arc. Since the arc
is not constant -- it flickers -- the output from the solar cell is
not constant, but varies in sync with the instantaneous intensity of
illumination received from the arc. This would be fine if the liquid
crystal filter could respond instantaneously but, it can not -- there
is a delayed response because it takes time for the liquid crystals to
mechanically twist and untwist in reponse to the variable voltage
being applied -- the filtering response is out of phase with the
instantaneous intensity of illumination being received from the arc.
To solve this problem, a capacitor is used to average out the
instantaneous output voltage coming from the solar cell, the way a
flywheel is used to average out the instantaneous power strokes on an
internal combustion engine.
A capacitor is very similar to a battery but, it is not a battery,
even though it may look like a battery with + and - markings. A
battery internally generates electricity. A capacitor only stores
electricity -- it does not internally generate electricity. In some
circuits, a capacitor and a battery can be used interchangably, if the
purpose is to average out instantaneous voltage variances, with a
capacitor being perferred because it requires no maintenance, unlike a
battery.
Capacitors are strange devices that maintain their efficiency only
when they are used and exercised regularly by having a charge applied
to them. If left unused for a period of time, they can discharge to
the point where they behave as though they have dead short internally.
To revive them, a certain threshold voltage, called a "set charge"
voltage, must be applied to set the charge in the the dieletric
materials inside. As capacitors age with time (the dielectric
material dries out), the "set charge" voltage becomes higher and
higher, and eventually becomes higher than what the solar cell can
generate under normal conditions, which is most likely what happened
in your case.
To prevent this problem, a capacitor should have a charge applied to
it regularly. So, yes, leaving your chronologically aged solar
powered auto-dark helmet exposed to bright light when not in use for
long periods of time will prolong the useful life of the auto-dark
cartridge by avoiding the issue of having to apply a "set charge"
voltage to the capacitor. By leaving the helmet In bright light, the
solar cell generates enough voltage to maintain a charge on the
capacitor at all times, thus preventing discharge to the point where a
"set charge" voltage must be applied.
A trick that sometimes works to revive an aged auto-dark cartridge
that has been in the dark for too long is to repeatedly flash the
solar cell using a camera flash, held about two inches in front of the
solar cell -- one of two things usually happens -- either the
auto-dark cartridge starts to work again, or the flash on your camera
burns out -- which ever comes first.
The rule-of-thumb is to use your solar powered welding helmet
regularly and to never leave it in a dark place for extended periods
of time. The idea is to keep that capacitor, or as you call it,
"battery", exercised and charged.
Guy Morin
Have you taken one apart?
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>Have you taken one apart?
Yes. Catastrophicly.
Gunner
Guy Morin
How about posting some pictures, or some part numbers for those
capacitors?
34FiveWindow
in detail.
I had no reason to take any pictures of it, but it's only been a
couple of months ago and the memory is still fresh in my mind.
It contained no battery of any kind.
del
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 04:05:13 -0500, Guy Morin <xn...@videotron.ca>
wrote:
my '34 Ford Project: http://danl.starband.net/default.htm
Guy Morin
the fact that user replaceable batteries are preferrable to so-called
"solar" powered helmets.
The limited-life "solar" powered helmets are good only for the welding
suppliers. Especially when comparing replacement cost, and the minimum
of care required to keep one's helmet working.
Readers on this list will do the math rather quickly. The
user-replaceable battery models are easily serviced when it comes time
to replace batteries, and cost about the same for comparable features.
The other models are expensive when considering the need to carry a
backup, or to spend a lot of money when they fail, in addition to the
inconvenience in having to replace a unit at an innoportune time.
Again, only welding suppliers want you to buy a unit that doesn't have
user replaceable batteries.
Thank you to all for the great insights!
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>How about posting some pictures, or some part numbers for those
>capacitors?
>
Id be happy to, if Id not tossed the remains into the trash can in
disgust. Dropping the 3lb shop hammer on the face of the
mask..well..the cover glass didnt do much to protect it.
As other posters have stated..solar powered lenses use capacitors for
the most part. Some use an actual rechargable battery, but fewer and
fewer are..and I dont think Ive seen one on the shelves in 2-3 yrs.
Ill ask you a question..those new fangled Seiko Kinetic Quartz
watchs..do they store the power in batteries or caps?
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>In any case, users would be wise to consider the purchase in light of
>the fact that user replaceable batteries are preferrable to so-called
>"solar" powered helmets.
>
>The limited-life "solar" powered helmets are good only for the welding
>suppliers. Especially when comparing replacement cost, and the minimum
>of care required to keep one's helmet working.
>
>Readers on this list will do the math rather quickly. The
>user-replaceable battery models are easily serviced when it comes time
>to replace batteries, and cost about the same for comparable features.
>
>The other models are expensive when considering the need to carry a
>backup, or to spend a lot of money when they fail, in addition to the
>inconvenience in having to replace a unit at an innoportune time.
>
>Again, only welding suppliers want you to buy a unit that doesn't have
>user replaceable batteries.
>
>Thank you to all for the great insights!
Then..if you drop a 3 lb shop hammer on a $280 helmet...rather than a
$59 one..you can buy 1/5th of a new one.
Gunner
Guy Morin
For starters, capacitors come in several varieties and for this
application would include electrolytic and dielectric. Electrolytic
would provide greater capacity per unit mass and volume than dielectric.
Interestingly, capacitors are the opposite of batteries in that running
them constantly at their rated voltage degrades them faster.
Capacitors have much lower energy density than batteries, especially
when taking cost into account. They are also susceptible to many failure
modes, and are degraded by heat and vibration. Batteries used in these
applications are more resistant from these two environmental factors.
Also, the output of the solar cell is likely to be very low, and only
capable of trickle charging a battery. I doubt that they can supply
enough power to drive the LCD. Again, this is a question of economics.
Solar cells with high efficiency are very expensive. I haven't done a
power and energy budget, but would have to be convinced by way of a
genuine circuit diagram, or picture of a live unit to be entirely
convinced.
One additional aspect to capacitors is that they do not provide constant
voltage as do batteries, which does not suit them to LCD applications.
This basically reduces the useable capacity by a substantial factor. My
guess is that it would reduce the rated capacity by a factor of 4.
Your reasoning is unconvincing. For my part, I would like see a picture
of these capacitors, or a part number. It is not to say that it isn't
possible, it just doesn't fit with regard to the economics, or the
feasibility.
Your description also mentions some delay of activation, this would
likely be negative from an safety perspective.
Guy Morin
comfort, adjustment or safety features.
Perhaps you don't place that much value on your eyes, but that is the
ultimate cost factor in the equation. The "invisible" cost that you
don't get to pay until it's too late.
Or maybe you buy helmets for other people, and who cares if they get
cataracts in forty years. You'll have made or saved a hundred and fifty
dollars?
An cheap and ill fitting helmet will allow more light to pass to the
eyes. Poor timing regulation will do the same, as will poor quality
optics.
If these $60 helmets exhibit long activation delay because of cheap
electronics, no thanks.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>The two helmets you are comparing are not likely to have the same
>comfort, adjustment or safety features.
>
>Perhaps you don't place that much value on your eyes, but that is the
>ultimate cost factor in the equation. The "invisible" cost that you
>don't get to pay until it's too late.
>
>Or maybe you buy helmets for other people, and who cares if they get
>cataracts in forty years. You'll have made or saved a hundred and fifty
>dollars?
>
>An cheap and ill fitting helmet will allow more light to pass to the
>eyes. Poor timing regulation will do the same, as will poor quality
>optics.
>
>If these $60 helmets exhibit long activation delay because of cheap
>electronics, no thanks.
Well...Ive used a lot of helmets a time or two. The HF seems to work
just as good as my buds Speedglas, at 1/5 the price. They claim to
pass all the ANSI standards and as far as activation delay..Ive used
my solar powered one at night in my moderately dark shop to TIG at 10
amps with. No delay noted. In fact..my angle grinder may trip it
occasionally.
But hey...buy what ya want. And Ill do the same. Thats called
different strokes for different folks.
Say..you arent the guy over on misc.survivalism that claims a HF
hammer used for framing a house..will build an inferior house to one
hammered with an Estwing...are ya?
Andrew H. Wakefield
> Any thoughts on the fan?
Guy, I'm not competent to weigh in on the battery debate, but yes, I love
the fan idea. Can you post pictures in the drop box?
Diamond Jim
IT!
I donn't think you can tell the difference between a capaciter and a
battery;
BTW, why don't you get with the program and quit "top posting".
Speechless
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.16356.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:26:21 -0800, xray <notr...@hotmail.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 02:17:55 GMT, Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>They claim to
>>>pass all the ANSI standards and as far as activation delay..Ive used
>>>my solar powered one at night in my moderately dark shop to TIG at 10
>>>amps with. No delay noted. In fact..my angle grinder may trip it
>>>occasionally.
>>
>> I'd be really surprised if the cheap one didn't protect you adaquately.
>
>As far as I understand, the real danger to eyes is UV radiation. All
>welding helmets have permanent UV protection that exists regardless of
>whether the helmet has darkened or not. The visible light is not a big
>danger.
>
>i
>
My experiene with the inexpensive auto-darks is that the cartridge
didn't darken uniformly -- there was usually a gradient between the
top edge and the bottom edge equivalent to about 1.5 filter steps. ie.
About a #11 filter along the top and about a #9.5 filter along the
bottom. This was about three years ago, so the product might have
been improved since then.
I had a small pallet load of 96 -- same manufacturer, same batch, same
lot -- all the helmets exhibited the same "feature". After I finished
saving money, I decided that I would use a cheap auto-dark helmet ONLY
when it was the right tool for the job. :)
My current inventory has three manual-dark Jacksons for real work, and
two auto-dark Optrels for Sundays, Holidays, and Special Occasions --
a guy's gotta dress up sometimes. :)
Guy Morin
Always happy to oblige!
Can't tell the difference between a battery and a capacitor? Okay.
Guy Morin
> just as good as my buds Speedglas, at 1/5 the price. They claim to
> pass all the ANSI standards and as far as activation delay..Ive used
> my solar powered one at night in my moderately dark shop to TIG at 10
> amps with. No delay noted. In fact..my angle grinder may trip it
> occasionally.
>
> But hey...buy what ya want. And Ill do the same. Thats called
> different strokes for different folks.
>
> Say..you arent the guy over on misc.survivalism that claims a HF
> hammer used for framing a house..will build an inferior house to one
> hammered with an Estwing...are ya?
>
> Gunner
Prefer air-powered nailers. Quality of a house is a dependent on many
factors. A lousy hammer may affect worker disposition, which may impact
house quality... Hopefully you have a sense of humor. ;-0
It seems as though the issue of batteries being inside your
solar-powered helmet hasn't been resolved yet. Apparently capacitors and
batteries are easily confused.
So, we're right back to square one, but with a twist.
If your so-called solar powered helmet has batteries embedded in it,
which it likely has, it will take a few years, but by taking care of
your Speedglas, you will not only be more comfortable, but will amortize
your money relatively easily.
My thoughts therefore are that with a minimum of care, I'm going to be
ahead in many ways. The first is convenience by replacing batteries
instead of helmets, and by having a much better helmet.
Gunner
wrote:
>> Well...Ive used a lot of helmets a time or two. The HF seems to work
Make a note..and in say...5 yrs, we can discuss this subject again.
Agreed?
buke9
then died. It did have alittle problem with low amp tig sometimes but not
often.
I will stick with my Miller big window elite. Replaceable batteries and
loads of plastic shields that came with it. I can asure you that a HF solar
powered helmet indeed has batteries. I don't say this to start anything but
just had to say it.
Buke
"Gunner" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:f9clr1tvbo6gvqvq7...@4ax.com...
Martin H. Eastburn
Coil - magnet - rectifier - and a cap & "white" LED. You generate power by flipping it
over and over - wearing out your elbow - then the cap charges enough for
current in the LED.
No battery - just a cap.
Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
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