Miller Trailblazer 55G further updates.....
Gunner Asch
pull the head....yes..it had at one point gotten water in it...
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Miller55G
Nothing seems to be badly damaged...but some valves appear to be
frozen, as well as at least one piston..the worst is #1..the one with
the fluid in the bottom of it in the above pictures.
I left 5 studs broken off in the block getting the head off...but
there are a fair number of threads standing above the block, that I
can probably weld nuts on them and work them out...Crom..I hope so..
Any suggestions other than threading on nuts and then welding them on
and hoping the heat loosens them up? I used a pick yesterday to clear
some of the rust around them, and sprayed PBlaster in the gaps..along
with the valves
I took a chunk of wood, and a hammer and tapped each piston firmly,
repeatedly spraying PBlaster around the sides of the pistons. Two of
them appeared to not be frozen, the third (far right) may be so, but
the far left one is still pretty much solid.
Cylinder walls on the right one, is smooth, has no ridge, no scratches
and is well polished, may have been honed at one point with a ball
hone..or there is no wear at 2400 hours. Left cylinder has surface
rust, not real thiick and a quick pass with a wire brush in a circular
motion got down to polished wall . Down low...shrug..it may well be
pretty pitted.
At this point..I think Im going to have to put the machine up on
blocks so I can drop the pan, disconnect the conn rods from the crank
and drive out the pistons from the bottom....I dont think they will
come out the bottom, will they?
Ill get a fine wire wheel and wire "bob" and do the faces of the block
and the head, and get out the crud and carbon from the various
recesses. Unless someone has a better idea?
Im not an engine guy...this is the 2nd or 3rd one Ive ever pulled down
this far by myself, fortunately this is a stone simple engine
Any suggestions at this point would be greatly appreciated
Gunner
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Private
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:7uht64di9m99jevmr...@4ax.com...
This is fairly typical damage due to lack of a simple rain hat, many people
put a 90 elbow on the top of the exhaust stack to prevent this type of
destruction.
It is a little hard to tell without seeing the actual block, but the #1
cylinder seems to have very very serious pitting and will probably require a
sleeve or boring (best boring is actually done with a Sunnen power hone) and
oversize piston, get guidance from a good engine machinist. I suggest you
remove the welding generator and strip the block down for complete cleaning
and inspection. I expect you will find the #1 exhaust valve will be rusted
and seized and maybe the intake also depending on the cam position.
Warning, Continental parts are not cheap, I suggest you shop carefully.
This may be a good time to consider replacing the engine with a diesel. The
current favorite welder in my area is the Red-D-Arc? Lincoln which IIRC has
a Kubota? diesel which burns far less fuel. (.44gal/hr IIRC)
Good luck, YMMV
Private
"Private" <ple...@dont.bother> wrote in message
news:g4mnli$gn7$1...@aioe.org...
http://www.red-d-arc.com/productsdetail.aspx?cid=1C&pid=1C01
Curt Welch
> I left 5 studs broken off in the block getting the head off...but
> there are a fair number of threads standing above the block, that I
> can probably weld nuts on them and work them out...Crom..I hope so..
>
> Any suggestions other than threading on nuts and then welding them on
> and hoping the heat loosens them up? I used a pick yesterday to clear
> some of the rust around them, and sprayed PBlaster in the gaps..along
> with the valves
You can weld on nuts to the studs that are at the surface of the block as
well. Using MIG, just place a nut over the broken off stud and fill in the
inside hole. It can take a few tries before the stud comes out instead of
just breaking the weld when you turn the nut.
You can also use the trick of placing a washer over the stud hole and
welding the top of the broken off stud to the washer. That's easier than
trying to weld inside a deep nut. Then weld the nut on top of the washer
(inside mostly, but outside if you need to as well).
There's also the trick of using paraffin wax to get a rusted bolt out.
It's like magic when it works. I've seen it used on oil galley plugs.
Plugs that couldn't be budged with massive force, and WD-40 or BP-Blaster
and heat came out so easy you could turn them out with your fingers using
paraffin wax.
The trick is to heat the stuck bolt with a torch until it's almost red hot,
then simply touch the block of wax to the bolt so it melts and wicks down
into the threads. Let it cool down until the wax hardens, and then try to
turn out the bolt. It comes out so easy it's absolutely shocking. I have
no idea why it works.
I don't know where you get paraffin wax. It's used in cooking for
chocolate and has been used for sealing caned food so I think you can get
it in blocks at some grocery stores. I don't know if it has to be paraffin
wax or if it will work with any old type of candle wax. I've only seen it
done with paraffin wax.
I've not seen this used for getting broken head studs out, but if I had
rusted bolts that weren't coming out with the welded on nut trick and PB
Blaster, I'd try it for that as well.
For an engine as badly messed up with rust as the one you are playing with,
I'd try the wax trick on anything that was frozen and not coming out.
--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
cu...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/
Steve W.
Looking at the pictures it looks like #1 will need some repair. Pull the
pan and see if you can get the piston to move up, then see if you can
get it to go down so you can clean out any rust and crud above it. Then
remove it. If the piston is OK and the rest of the bores check out as OK
I would probably bore #1 out and sleeve it back to the current size.
Then all you would need is a set of rings and gaskets. Being a
Continental they are easy to find sleeves that will fit. A LOT of
tractors used similar engines. For the boring if you have a way to do
large holes you could DIY. Just buy the new sleeve and bore for a press
fit. Then freeze the new sleeve and install it. Hone it to ensure it's
true and clean up all the swarf. Put it back together and run it. If you
don't have the proper boring bar it isn't hard to find them. I have
bored a few engines while they were installed. Not real hard as long as
you pay attention during the set-up.
For the broken studs, HEAT them up, then stick a cheap candle into the
threads, the paraffin will melt and wick into the threads. Then clamp on
them and remove them.
--
Steve W.
Michael A. Terrell
Try the grocery store. It is sold with the canning supplies as
'canning wax'. A one pound box was only a couple dollars about three
years ago. The box of paraffin I got was made by Gulf Oil. It looks like
some True Value hardware stores carry it, as well:
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-50487/Detail $4.49
> I've not seen this used for getting broken head studs out, but if I had
> rusted bolts that weren't coming out with the welded on nut trick and PB
> Blaster, I'd try it for that as well.
>
> For an engine as badly messed up with rust as the one you are playing with,
> I'd try the wax trick on anything that was frozen and not coming out.
>
> --
> Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
> cu...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/
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Gunner Asch
wrote:
Oddly enough..this has a big muffler at a 90' angle across the top of
the machine, with an additional smaller muffler coming out straight up
from one end, with a flapper on top of that.....shrug...the factory
muffer took a bit of doing to get it off the verticle pipe from the
exhaust manifold.
>It is a little hard to tell without seeing the actual block, but the #1
>cylinder seems to have very very serious pitting and will probably require a
>sleeve or boring (best boring is actually done with a Sunnen power hone) and
>oversize piston, get guidance from a good engine machinist. I suggest you
>remove the welding generator and strip the block down for complete cleaning
>and inspection. I expect you will find the #1 exhaust valve will be rusted
>and seized and maybe the intake also depending on the cam position.
I cant find much actual pitting , nothing very deep anyways. Now at
ring level...brr..that may be nasty, but Ill not know until I can get
the pistons out. I assume they have to come out the top? IM not
looking forwards to driving that one piston up through the rust on the
cylinder wall.
>
>Warning, Continental parts are not cheap, I suggest you shop carefully.
I will. I have a pretty good network, one of my pool playing buddies
is an independant forklift mechanic and will get me the parts at cost
from his wholesaler.
>
>This may be a good time to consider replacing the engine with a diesel. The
>current favorite welder in my area is the Red-D-Arc? Lincoln which IIRC has
>a Kubota? diesel which burns far less fuel. (.44gal/hr IIRC)
It would be nice..but Ive got $600 in the welder at presnt..and
putting another couple grand in the beast is likely more than the old
bitch is worth.
But I thank you for your advice.
Gunner
>
>Good luck, YMMV
Karl Townsend
> Im not an engine guy...this is the 2nd or 3rd one Ive ever pulled down
> this far by myself, fortunately this is a stone simple engine
>
>
> Any suggestions at this point would be greatly appreciated
I think you're beat on this engine. it will cost you more than its worth to
restore if your time is worth a plug nickel.
Now, this engine was in everything from 30 years ago. start scrounging,
you'll find a running engine in an otherwise broken machine. BTW, you don't
know a good scrounge, do you? <VBG>
Karl
Private
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
Which raises the question, where did the water come from?
Is there other block damage? From freezing? Or?
I suggest you inspect carefully before any repair.
>>It is a little hard to tell without seeing the actual block, but the #1
>>cylinder seems to have very very serious pitting and will probably require
>>a
>>sleeve or boring (best boring is actually done with a Sunnen power hone)
>>and
>>oversize piston, get guidance from a good engine machinist. I suggest you
>>remove the welding generator and strip the block down for complete
>>cleaning
>>and inspection. I expect you will find the #1 exhaust valve will be
>>rusted
>>and seized and maybe the intake also depending on the cam position.
>
> I cant find much actual pitting , nothing very deep anyways. Now at
> ring level...brr..that may be nasty, but Ill not know until I can get
> the pistons out. I assume they have to come out the top? IM not
> looking forwards to driving that one piston up through the rust on the
> cylinder wall.
I suggest you push the piston as far down as you can then use a flap wheel
to smooth the pitting before driving the piston out the top. You cannot do
much further damage to the cylinder and are really just trying to prevent
further damage to the piston ring lands. I would expect the rings to be
siezed but you will need to remove any top ridge to allow the siezed rings
to pass there.
>>Warning, Continental parts are not cheap, I suggest you shop carefully.
>
> I will. I have a pretty good network, one of my pool playing buddies
> is an independant forklift mechanic and will get me the parts at cost
> from his wholesaler.
I suspected that you would have good connections. You may be able to find
another block cheaper than repairing this one.
>>This may be a good time to consider replacing the engine with a diesel.
>>The
>>current favorite welder in my area is the Red-D-Arc? Lincoln which IIRC
>>has
>>a Kubota? diesel which burns far less fuel. (.44gal/hr IIRC)
>
> It would be nice..but Ive got $600 in the welder at presnt..and
> putting another couple grand in the beast is likely more than the old
> bitch is worth.
At todays cost of fuel, a replacement diesel may pay for itself in fuel
savings.
IIRC the Continental burns ~1 gal.hr vs Kubota @ .44gal/hr.
!000 hrs @ .5gal/hr savings x $5-$???/gal = $2500.-$????.
Add the cost of rebuilding the Continental $ 500.- $???
Add the cost of labor _________________ $????
and you are getting close to the cost of a new diesel, the economics start
to look even better with higher utilization. A new diesel powered machine
is worth ~ $13,000.
If you do the cost analysis based on what most of the rest of the world is
paying for fuel today or on what the future price is likely to be, then the
benefit is even greater.
Alternatively you may be further ahead to find a good used Red-D-Arc Lincoln
http://www.red-d-arc.com/productsdetail.aspx?cid=1C&pid=1C01
which will be a newer design but still have a full copper DC generator and
with options for CC & CV, remote control and a few other nice features for
wire and TIG.
The block you have could probably be reringed and sold as an oil burning,
slobering pig that fouled the number 1 plug regularly, but which would run
and weld for a low hour user.
>>Good luck, YMMV
xman
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:486f81af$0$2547$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
Lots, and lots, of work here....
xman
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Indeed. I posted pictures as clear and as sharp as I could, in case
anyone could notice head gasket leakage . A cracked block is
possible, but I wont be able to tell anything until I get that piston
out and can clean up the cylinder walls
The oil on the dipstick was clear and of the proper color, with no
white or water beads noted. Pulling the pan may tell me something
also. Hell..it could be full of water and the crank rusted
solit...but I rather suspect its going to be ok (knock on wood)
My guess is that the head gasket was leaking, as there was only a
couple gallons of clear green antifreeze in the radiator, no rust, or
oil noted. and I carefuly examined it as I drained it.
I have little experience in these things (motors) but am not totally
ignorant..just mostly <G>
The head bolts I pulled were all rusty and filled with shit in the
thread areas, but nothing was noted in the unthreaded areas, like it
had been submerged or something.
>
>>>It is a little hard to tell without seeing the actual block, but the #1
>>>cylinder seems to have very very serious pitting and will probably require
>>>a
>>>sleeve or boring (best boring is actually done with a Sunnen power hone)
>>>and
>>>oversize piston, get guidance from a good engine machinist. I suggest you
>>>remove the welding generator and strip the block down for complete
>>>cleaning
>>>and inspection. I expect you will find the #1 exhaust valve will be
>>>rusted
>>>and seized and maybe the intake also depending on the cam position.
>>
>> I cant find much actual pitting , nothing very deep anyways. Now at
>> ring level...brr..that may be nasty, but Ill not know until I can get
>> the pistons out. I assume they have to come out the top? IM not
>> looking forwards to driving that one piston up through the rust on the
>> cylinder wall.
>
>I suggest you push the piston as far down as you can then use a flap wheel
>to smooth the pitting before driving the piston out the top. You cannot do
>much further damage to the cylinder and are really just trying to prevent
>further damage to the piston ring lands. I would expect the rings to be
>siezed but you will need to remove any top ridge to allow the siezed rings
>to pass there.
At this point, Im pretty sure that #1 is already at the bottom of the
stroke and wont go down any farther. So Ill have to wirebrush (4"
brass wheel?" out the mang and push it out the top after blowing it
out with air and a rag. Im working on it 20' from a 15hp screw
compressor.....I figure I can get some air over to it. Its in a
corner of a clients 35,000 sqft shop....
>
>>>Warning, Continental parts are not cheap, I suggest you shop carefully.
>>
>> I will. I have a pretty good network, one of my pool playing buddies
>> is an independant forklift mechanic and will get me the parts at cost
>> from his wholesaler.
>
>I suspected that you would have good connections. You may be able to find
>another block cheaper than repairing this one.
Pulling the genny out of this thing is gonna be a REAL pain in the
ass. so Id rather try to repair it in place...cringe....
Thats kinda what I thought. I bought it for several reasons...one
was the apparent good outside condition, the price, and thinking I
could either hang on to it, replacing my Ranger 9, or turn it around
and make a few bucks.
Im NOT a welder. Perhaps decent Dauber is a better term. I dont weld
for a living, more for hobby than anything else, though do have to
mig/tig/stick occasionally on the job...and do a fair amount of
melting metal together around the homestead.
I find welding equipment pretty regularly in the course of my duties
as a machine tool repair/plant maint tech, and do a bit of buying and
selling ...find something, fix it up, turn it over, get a better
machine for my hobby shop...
Ive got a LN-8 wirefeeder, and figured it would be a natural, tied to
this big bastard, as the 55G is multiprocess and 400 amps....shrug.
The Ranger 9 I have has a couple minor issues, but its a hell of a lot
smaller and handier...and doesnt weigh 1750 lbs like the 55g
does....so it would make more sense to hang on to it for the occasonal
off site job I might have to do, and sell the 55G...but damn...I have
a weakness for big machines...like Tim the Toolman says...."more
power! Huh huh huh!!!"
Chuckle...now I figure Im gonna learn a few things fixing this big
bastard..which is a good thing, right? And if I can fix it up, and
sell it for more than what I will have in it...the learning/labor
cancels out and doesnt make it a loss.
The previous owner said he would give me my money back...but its
become something of a challenge.....shrug....
Cringe...<G>
Sometimes I tend to over think things Ive never done before and waffle
around before actually digging in, and when its all done..sit back and
say...."damn..that wasnt as bad as I thought it was"...and the next
one is easy.
Gunner
>>>Good luck, YMMV
>
Thanks for the info. Greatly apprciated.
Gunner
Bruce L. Bergman
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>Thats kinda what I thought. I bought it for several reasons...one
>was the apparent good outside condition, the price, and thinking I
>could either hang on to it, replacing my Ranger 9, or turn it around
>and make a few bucks.
>
>Im NOT a welder. Perhaps decent Dauber is a better term. I dont weld
>for a living, more for hobby than anything else, though do have to
>mig/tig/stick occasionally on the job...and do a fair amount of
>melting metal together around the homestead.
>
>I find welding equipment pretty regularly in the course of my duties
>as a machine tool repair/plant maint tech, and do a bit of buying and
>selling ...find something, fix it up, turn it over, get a better
>machine for my hobby shop...
>
>Ive got a LN-8 wirefeeder, and figured it would be a natural, tied to
>this big bastard, as the 55G is multiprocess and 400 amps....shrug.
>
>The Ranger 9 I have has a couple minor issues, but its a hell of a lot
>smaller and handier...and doesnt weigh 1750 lbs like the 55g
>does....so it would make more sense to hang on to it for the occasonal
>off site job I might have to do, and sell the 55G...but damn...I have
>a weakness for big machines...like Tim the Toolman says...."more
>power! Huh huh huh!!!"
We've already discussed that your homestead doesn't have the power
service you need to run a "real" welder - the nice thing about an
engine driven is that it makes it's own power, you don't need to beef
up to a 200A service.
Or worse, try to talk Pacific Greed and Extortion into bringing in a
3-Phase Open Delta service for a residence.
Having 400 Amps on tap is sweet, you can keep cranking up the amps
to get penetration - when you start blowing holes, that's the cue to
back it off a notch. That spare tire wouldn't have gone anywhere if
you'd have used this puppy, but you might have needed extra time with
the grinder to clean up the backside of the frame rail where it was
just starting to burn through.
>Chuckle...now I figure Im gonna learn a few things fixing this big
>bastard..which is a good thing, right? And if I can fix it up, and
>sell it for more than what I will have in it...the learning/labor
>cancels out and doesnt make it a loss.
>
>The previous owner said he would give me my money back...but its
>become something of a challenge.....shrug....
>
>Cringe...<G>
(Cribbed from that Chinese Curse:) May you always find interesting
problems. And develop interesting solutions to them.
>Sometimes I tend to over think things Ive never done before and waffle
>around before actually digging in, and when its all done..sit back and
>say...."damn..that wasnt as bad as I thought it was"...and the next
>one is easy.
Get it running, stick it on a trailer and rig basic fenders and
lights, a hoop frame for a tarp and keep it covered. CA Permanent
Trailer tags are cheap now - something like $20 every five years.
I can use a motor driven unit occasionally - but only occasionally.
You could always make it the RCM Loaner Machine - it goes out on
rental, it comes back better than it left - If I had it for example,
it would come back with the taillights totally reworked and rewired
"Universal" - any car with the right connector cable.
(And powered equipment with a battery can also get stand-alone 4-way
flashers really easy if it ever needs to be left by the side of the
road, and you don't want it getting plowed into.)
The book says it's also a 3KW 120/240V generator, so that's another
reason to keep it handy.
--<< Bruce >>--
Balders
<snip>
> There's also the trick of using paraffin wax to get a rusted bolt out.
> It's like magic when it works. I've seen it used on oil galley plugs.
> Plugs that couldn't be budged with massive force, and WD-40 or BP-Blaster
> and heat came out so easy you could turn them out with your fingers using
> paraffin wax.
>
> The trick is to heat the stuck bolt with a torch until it's almost red hot,
> then simply touch the block of wax to the bolt so it melts and wicks down
> into the threads. Let it cool down until the wax hardens, and then try to
> turn out the bolt. It comes out so easy it's absolutely shocking. I have
> no idea why it works.
<snip>
I'd second the wax trick, use alongside WD40/Plusgas/whatever. For the wax
I've used household candles. If you quench the stud (not the block) after
welding with cold water it should contract slightly.
Gorilla welds are great for this ;) Also a pre-heat with a blow torch seems
to work
Wack a Stielson on to undo it.
I have old VW exhaust studs to thank for this trick.
Rec.crafts removed as I can't crosspost to it, sorry.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Further update:
Id put this beasty on hold shortly after this thread expired in August.
I was too busy to do much with it. Id put a bit of Kroil in the
offending cylinder every couple months and walk away.
Yesterday, I was walking past it, and on a whim, decided to put the
wrench to the crankshaft..put my foot on it....and it MOVED! Rocking
back and forth on the wrench, I got the cylinder to finally move to the
top of the stroke and back down. The crank wouldnt turn more than one
full turn, and Id have to reverse directions,..it appears that at least
one valve is still frozen in place....but the rusted cylinder is now
moving. I pulled the rod cap and turning the crank around, the rod is
now hanging free. I dont know if I should try to get it out the bottom
of the cylinder, or the top. Anyone know what would be best? It seems
to get really snug when its all the way up..probably the rings are
getting packed full of Stuff, but I can , using a block of wood and a
hammer, tap the cyliinder back to the bottom of the bore. I didnt go all
the way down, not knowing if I could get the piston itself past the
crank. Anyone know if it will come out the bottom in such a fashion?
Now I need to find out which valves are sticking. I thought Id gotten
them all free in July..shrug perhaps one has re rusted again
When Im back down in So. Cal next week, Ill try getting the piston out,
based on what the general opinion is on which direction to try.
Getting it out the top is going to be more problematic..as I cant get a
good hammer blow on a wooden dowel from the bottom, though I pehaps
could put a jack under the engine and try jacking out the piston ith a
block of wood in the end of the con rod or a dowel inside the piston
itself.
I would try using a cylinder hone to clear any top ridge that their
might be before pulling the pistons.
Ill then pull all the pistons and clean the bores using the brushes Tom
Gardner sent me and see bout gettting the valves out for a good wire
wheel cleaning. and see about replacing the broken valve and valve guide
Can I buy a single valve and a single valve guide? Or do I have to buy
and entire set of valves etc?
Thanks
Gunner
"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""
Pete C.
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> Further update:
>
> Id put this beasty on hold shortly after this thread expired in August.
> I was too busy to do much with it. Id put a bit of Kroil in the
> offending cylinder every couple months and walk away.
>
> Yesterday, I was walking past it, and on a whim, decided to put the
> wrench to the crankshaft..put my foot on it....and it MOVED!
All bow down before the mighty Kroil, savior of all things rusted...
Buerste
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
Kroil is magic! My brain says that the piston won't come out the bottom for
some reason, I can't put my finger on it. I've done a number of
Continentals, the last one kept breaking valve springs, never could figure
out why. I sure was glad to see that old girl go to the bone yard!