Air Compressor tank welding question
Gunner
freshly rebuilt..and after firing it up..I believe him. Quiet, good
compression and fast build up.
The issue I have..is the tank. Cosmetically..it looks very good.
However..as best as I can figure..it was made in 1948. There is NO
bottom drain plug..draining is accomplished by a pipe stinger coming
out of the end bell and hanging down the inside of the tank to within
a half inch or so of the bottom of the tank. I found this out by
pulling one of the 3" plugs on the side of the tank..big! pipe
wrench..6' snipe and some grunting.
Bottom of the tank has about 3/4" of sediment on it. A bit of poking
with a stick moved enough stuff around to get a glimps of the inside
of the bottom..and no big pits were noted. Ill get out the pressure
washer this weekend and clean it out.
My question is...Im spooky about not having a drain plug on the bottom
of the tank, and really think I should put one in. What I want to
do..is drill a proper hole in the bottom of the tank, thread in a 1"
fitting, then weld it in place. Tank data plate says tank walls are
.235 thick..which is a smidge less than 1/4"..and if I cut into the
tank..and find the bottom to be significantly less than that..Ill junk
the tank, which the data plate says is rated 200lbs.
Does anyone have any caviats or hints and kinks to doing this? I plan
on tapping the tank simply to hold the flange..threading it in..then
MIG a bead around the fitting.. Or I could Tig..Ive got the
capabilities of both.
Should I hydro the tank when Im done? Ill never run it above
100lbs..so I figure I can fill it with water, then pump up 150-175 and
see if it springs a leak.
Any discussion on this would be apprciated
Gunner
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."
"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001
ATP*
"Gunner" <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:78hod2lfqnl4redv9...@4ax.com...
enough alone.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
> of the tank, and really think I should put one in. What I want to
> do..is drill a proper hole in the bottom of the tank, thread in a 1"
> fitting, then weld it in place. Tank data plate says tank walls are
> .235 thick..which is a smidge less than 1/4"..and if I cut into the
> tank..and find the bottom to be significantly less than that..Ill junk
> the tank, which the data plate says is rated 200lbs.
Don't. Unless you're a certified pressure vessel welder, you take the
chance of compromising the integrity of the tank.
A dip-tube type drain is completely effective if it's built and used
correctly. The tube end should be cut to a slight angle (or castleated) so
it cannot seal against any surface in the tank. It should be placed at the
bottom-most part of the tank, in light contact with the surface. On a
horizontal tank, this means at or near the seam of one of the end bells.
Then - on a horizontal - the entire affair should be shimmed just slightly
out of level so that water runs to the low end. A 1/4" over the length of
the tank is fine.
Lots of older tanks have the sort of drain you called a "stinger". A bottom
drain is cheaper, which is why most manufacturers do it that way now. But
it's also usually a lot less convenient to the operator than a drain mounted
higher up.
LLoyd
Ecnerwal
Gunner <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> Should I hydro the tank when Im done? Ill never run it above
> 100lbs..so I figure I can fill it with water, then pump up 150-175 and
> see if it springs a leak.
...which won't reveal if you've inadvertently caused the start of a
stress crack that you'll learn about when the thing tries to go into
orbit. Compressed air storage failures really suck (or blow).
Suggestion 1: clean it out, make sure that the drain is set up to drain
properly per LLoyd's reply, don't weld on the tank.
Suggestion 2: consider getting it really hydro-tested, which is a bit
more complex than you filling it with water, but costs money, which is
not a good thing, I know. Procedures vary slightly with tank type, but
(speaking from scuba tanks, which I know more about the procedure for -
is similar for high pressure gas tanks, and probably fairly similar with
slightly different details for low pressure tanks) consist of putting
the tank in a container of water, filling the tank with water, and
applying a prescribed amount of overpressure, such as 4/3 the rated
pressure. Failure includes tank rupture, but is not limited to tank
rupture - the volume of the tank is monitored by checking the level of
the exterior water in a rather finely calibrated manner, and if the tank
does not substantially return to its original size when pressure is
removed (ie, if it "takes a set" or permanently deforms too much) it is
also failed.
Suggestion 3: if it looks grotty when cleaned out and Suggestion 2 is
too costly, give it a 58th birthday bash and either take it to the
scrapyard, or make a lovely barbecue grill from it.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Wild Bill
have a flange on them (T-shaped cross section), and appear to be cast
material. I don't recall ever seeing a straight sided fitting welded
into a certified tank.
Most likely, there is a reason for the flanged fittings. A flanged
fitting would be easy enough to turn on a lathe, from any choice of
several types of steel, then drilled and tapped to accept a drain valve
(or fittings to locate the drain valve in a convenient location).
A little hand grinding could be done to match the back side of the
flange to the crown of the tank.
Setting the cutoff/shut-off pressure isn't a guarantee that the tank
won't ever see a higher pressure. If a working safety relief valve
isn't installed, a powerful motor will just keep running if the
pressure switch or starter control should fail to interrupt the power.
A new safety valve is cheap insurance.
A secondary specification for a safety valve is that the valve can
evacuate a specific volume/rate of air, faster than the pump can
deliver more CFM. This evacuation specification may not be so critical
for a 2-piston pump, as compared to a high volume screw compressor.
The tanks on oil-crankcase-piston compressors have had some oil
introduced into the tanks, which might help inhibit rust, even though
water is heavier than oil.
Oil-less/diaphram compressors just accumulate water in their tanks.
The results of a DIY hydrotest can be unreliable if the test gage is
inaccurate, obviously. The safe method for applying pressure is to fill
the tank with water, and use a hand-operated hydraulic pump (porta
power pump, for example) pumping some oil, to raise the pressure.
The original draining method has been reliable up until now. The
existing (presently reduced, compared to when it was new) integrity of
the tank could be compromised by modifying it.
Beating the dead horse and kicking the dog while he's down, reminds me
that someone had a certain level of confidence that the spare tire
carrier was definitely secure.
WB
..............
Ignoramus16112
weld on any fittings on the tank. You are in a pretty arid area with
low humidity, right? Personally, I would continue to use it until it
starts leaking, and then I would replace the tank. If you live in a
low humidity area, you may die before the tank starts leaking. Given
Gunner's scrounging abilities, I am sure that he can find a good tank
in the meantime.
If he installs a intercooler between the pump and compressor, the
amount of moisture in the tank would be minimal.
i
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
"Ignoramus16112" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.16112.invalid> wrote in message
news:GW1Dg.4615$6X5....@fe63.usenetserver.com...
No, Iggy. An intercooler improves the pumping efficiency of the second
stage, but any water in that air is ultimately going into the tank,
intercooler or no. Where else would it go?
LLoyd
rigger
Although I don't remember hearing about such has anyone heard of a
corrosion inhibiter which can be safely added to a compressor tank?
Seems like this might be a little added insurance.
dennis
in nca
"The inventor of the blond chicken wig."
Ignoramus16112
I would hope that most of it would be trapped if a water trap was installed
after the intercooler...
i
Gunner
Thank you Gentlemen. I believe Ill follow Lloyd's advise. Ill clean
out the tank, and make sure the stinger is in contact with the bottom
of the tank in the proper manner. At the moment..its at least 1/2-3/4
of an inch off the bottom, hence the build up of sludge, so Ill reach
in with a bar and bend it into contact.
While I trust my welding skills..(solid but not always pretty)..the
advise about introducing stress cracks and so forth are valid concerns
to me.
My current Quincy is elderly, very tired and needs a rebuild badly, so
Ill horse it out of its home and put in the new one, and put her out
back with the others I need to rebuild in the near future and resell.
Ill also have to fabricate a pulley/belt guard..but thats not a biggy.
Thanks again
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
"Ignoramus16112" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.16112.invalid> wrote in message
Usually, unless the intercooler is much more robust (has a lot more
radiating area) than most that come on commercial compressors, the air never
gets cool enough to condense the moisture. A water trap counts on that
condensation forming.
Now, I think I remember your saying you would use a refrigeration condenser
coil you had as an intercooler. You might get the temperature low enough in
that case. But the traditional two-stage pump type compressor has an
intercooler that is a single pipe about a foot or two long... not enough for
that purpose.
LLoyd
Gunner
Ignoramus16112
> Now, I think I remember your saying you would use a refrigeration condenser
> coil you had as an intercooler.
Yes, the HVAC person who replaced our A/C left the evaporator coil.
> You might get the temperature low enough in that case. But the
> traditional two-stage pump type compressor has an intercooler that
> is a single pipe about a foot or two long... not enough for that
> purpose.
I see. Thank you Lloyd, not I know a little more.
i
Tom Gardner
Jon Elson
rigger wrote:
>Although I don't remember hearing about such has anyone heard of a
>corrosion inhibiter which can be safely added to a compressor tank?
>Seems like this might be a little added insurance.
>
>
>
When I had a ghastly oilless compressor, the bled-out water was showing
rust color very soon after I bought it. Not a lot, but there was an orange
color to it. I am now using a 30+ year old Quincy and the stuff bled
out of the
tank is a yellowish froth of oil, water and air, but no sign of rust
yet! And,
in St. Louis, in the summer, there can be quarts of water in there!
So, ordinary compressor oil does seem to be protecting the tank from
corrosion.
Jon
Bob
"Ecnerwal" <Lawren...@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote in message
> Suggestion 2: consider getting it really hydro-tested, which is a bit
> more complex than you filling it with water, but costs money, which is
> not a good thing, I know. Procedures vary slightly with tank type, but
> (speaking from scuba tanks, which I know more about the procedure for -
> is similar for high pressure gas tanks, and probably fairly similar with
> slightly different details for low pressure tanks) consist of putting
> the tank in a container of water, filling the tank with water, and
> applying a prescribed amount of overpressure, such as 4/3 the rated
> pressure. Failure includes tank rupture, but is not limited to tank
> rupture - the volume of the tank is monitored by checking the level of
> the exterior water in a rather finely calibrated manner, and if the tank
> does not substantially return to its original size when pressure is
> removed (ie, if it "takes a set" or permanently deforms too much) it is
> also failed.
I accquired a used Compressor tank. I was trying to find out about
getting it tested. My compressor shop told me to call the city "boiler
and pressure vessel" inspector. I did, and the guy said "i'm going to
be in your area tomorrow, I could check it for you". He stopped
by, and using a ultrasound device, measured the thickness of the
tank at several locations. He then compared the readings to the
spec on the tank. All for free. No complaints about the government
here.
Bob
Bob
"Bob" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8t2dnVOdYLoZw0DZ...@comcast.com...
I should throw in, that when he saw my welder, he immediately
asked if I was planning to weld the tank. He definately implied
that it was a bad idea.
Bob
Nick Hull
Gunner <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> While I trust my welding skills..(solid but not always pretty)..the
> advise about introducing stress cracks and so forth are valid concerns
> to me.
Another option, if you can live with quick & dirty, is to drill a #3
hole in the bottom and screw in a 1/4-28 threaded pipe and seal with
epoxy. I've done this with very thin tanks because I can thread a valve
stem to 1/4-28. The hole is so small that the actual force on the
fitting is miniscule. At 100 psig the force would only be about 5#,
epoxy can hold that. Of course the fitting is positioned so it would
blow harmlessly down. Threads & epoxy avoid welding stress, looks crude
but it works and I have used it many times. I have had occasional leaks
trying to epoxy to rusted metal but never a blow-out, the 1/4-28 threads
will hold more than the mere 5# force involved even in very thin metal.
--
Committees of Correspondence web page;
free men own guns - slaves don't
<www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/>
John Gullotti
As a former pressure vessel welder and a current welding engineer, I'd
recommend that you don't make any attempts to redesign the tank with a new
drain plug by welding from just the outside. As long as you don't have any
excessive wall loss as determined by a UT thickness measurement, you might
want to sandblast the bottom of the tank as best as you can, use some rust
reformer and paint the corroded area to keep the tank in service.
Insofar as the design of a plug is concerned, I've welded a bunch of half
couplings into 200 psi ASME tanks. It was the standard design for small
inlet/outlet connections. Most of the time the design called for an inside
fillet and an outside fillet. Size wise, you could have just a seal bead on
the interior and a sufficient fillet on the outside to handle the stress.
In your case, you can't weld on the inside so that would leave a crevice at
the bottom that would be a ripe spot for aggressive corrosion. Not a good
idea. The outside fillet needs not only to hold the fitting in place, but
also to couple with the fitting to accommodate the stress concentration in
the bottom of the tank that comes from having the hole where there once was
none. That "compensation" is why many tanks have extra thickness around
holes and nozzles. You'd need an engineer to tell you whether the half
coupling would work and if so, what size to use or whether or not you'd need
extra compensation too.
The tank could be rebuilt by a certified pressure vessel shop. They'd cut
the bottom head off, install a properly designed drain and reweld a new head
in place. That butt weld would probably be x-rayed and then the tank would
get hydrotested at 1-1/2 times the maximum working pressure which does two
things. It checks for leaks and does a physical stress relief keeping the
residual stresses from welding from playing a fatigue role in the service of
the part. You might even be able to go to the shop that made the vessel in
the first place. If not, you could contact the ASME for anybody in your
area that holds an "R" stamp.
Further, don't weld over threads. In my opinion that's always a bad idea.
First, somewhere around the weld you make you're creating a case of maximum
stress concentration. It's the basis for some laboratory tests that test
the weldability of steels. Second, you're creating a condition that
amplifies the potential for stress corrosion cracking. And lastly, you want
to be careful for any threaded commercial part since many if not most are
fabricated from leaded steels. The presence of lead will reduce the
toughness and ductility of the weld deposit. You don't want to trust life
and limb to welds made on questionable material.
J
"Gunner" <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:78hod2lfqnl4redv9...@4ax.com...
Gunner
Excellent! Post. Many thanks!
Gunner
"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist
john
Gunner wrote:
A nonbiased pole of liberals agree that you should weld it. :)
just kidding.
Thats a good compressor...... keep it like it is. I had one like that
for many years till I moved and sold it.
John
Gunner
Oh I know the compressor is good..its the tank I was worried about
<G>
Gunner
KIMO
OK guys,
I have been reading this thread and have a question that you may think
is nuts but I will ask it anyway because the stupid question is the
one not asked, right?
This is just for my information, I have no tank or plans to weld on
one.
Gunner stated the tank is just shy of 1/4" thick. It is made of steel,
right?
Now, my little brother has piped his entire shop with 1/2" PVC and
runs it at his compressor's max of 125 (so he says).
If PVC can hold that much pressure being plastic and glued together,
why is there such concern for nearly 1/4" steel not being able to
handle it? Is there stress that steel can't handle but PVC can?
I am simply looking at a comparison that does not make sense to me.
Kimo
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:03:51 GMT, Gunner <gunner...@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
Ignoramus21248
>
> OK guys,
>
> I have been reading this thread and have a question that you may think
> is nuts but I will ask it anyway because the stupid question is the
> one not asked, right?
>
> This is just for my information, I have no tank or plans to weld on
> one.
>
> Gunner stated the tank is just shy of 1/4" thick. It is made of steel,
> right?
>
> Now, my little brother has piped his entire shop with 1/2" PVC and
> runs it at his compressor's max of 125 (so he says).
>
> If PVC can hold that much pressure being plastic and glued together,
> why is there such concern for nearly 1/4" steel not being able to
> handle it? Is there stress that steel can't handle but PVC can?
>
> I am simply looking at a comparison that does not make sense to me.
Using PVC as compressed air piping is unsafe and illegal for
employers, per PSHA regulations. Plus, larger tanks are subject to
more stress per unit of thickness, for obvious reasons.
i
Gunner
>
>OK guys,
>
>I have been reading this thread and have a question that you may think
>is nuts but I will ask it anyway because the stupid question is the
>one not asked, right?
>
>This is just for my information, I have no tank or plans to weld on
>one.
>
>Gunner stated the tank is just shy of 1/4" thick. It is made of steel,
>right?
>
>Now, my little brother has piped his entire shop with 1/2" PVC and
>runs it at his compressor's max of 125 (so he says).
>
>If PVC can hold that much pressure being plastic and glued together,
>why is there such concern for nearly 1/4" steel not being able to
>handle it? Is there stress that steel can't handle but PVC can?
>
>I am simply looking at a comparison that does not make sense to me.
>
>
>Kimo
>
White or gray PVC is a linear hand grenade waiting to go off. And sooner
or later..It will. With luck, no one will be in the room as the razor
sharp shards fly in all directions.
Ive seen dozens of machine shops plumbed with it..some of which is 10
yrs old. And Ive also ran new black pipe or copper plumbing to replace
all that PVC when it ultimately exploded off the walls, or off the top
of florescent light runs (which generally blows out the bulbs, spraying
floresent tube glass in all directions of the fixture above which the
main break occured.
PVC ages poorly for high pressure use. Plus the oil that inevitably
comes out of the compressor tends to form a film inside the PVC and
degrades the pipe to the point its as brittle as a grahm cracker. A
knock, a dirty look and it blows out..and as its brittle now..it blows
shards everwhere. Heat, compressor oil, natural aging..and the fact that
as an air pipe..its expanding and contracting all the time. Far more so
than if it simply carries water at the normal house pressure. And if
its poorly supported..that first shock will break the pipe in many other
places at the same time.
Now lots of folks get away with it, and for many years. I repair machine
tools and do facilities maint..and am one cheap bastard. And my home has
black pipe or air hose running from point to point..NO PVC will ever be
used in my shop(s)
One of my clients in Orange California had a blow out of their 10 yr old
PVC pipe. All of which was run overhead on the long florescent light
runs. When she let go..it took out 8, 8' tubes, broke in 11 places in
the 1500 or so linear feet of run, in 5 differnet rooms of the shop.
I made some decent money replacing fixtures, tubes and running all new
3/4" black pipe, putting in the proper slopes, water traps and so forth
over 2 full days.
The question is not if the steel can hold the pressure..but if the PVC
can hold it. <G>
Your brother may luck out and it may last for years, particularly if he
doesnt keep pressure on the lines 24/7. But it WILL blow sooner or
later.
Gunner
"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
dca...@krl.org
KIMO wrote:
> OK guys,
>
> Now, my little brother has piped his entire shop with 1/2" PVC and
> runs it at his compressor's max of 125 (so he says).
>
> If PVC can hold that much pressure being plastic and glued together,
> why is there such concern for nearly 1/4" steel not being able to
> handle it? Is there stress that steel can't handle but PVC can?
>
> I am simply looking at a comparison that does not make sense to me.
>
>
> Kimo
>
As others have said, using PVC is not a good idea.
But back on the general idea of why 1/2 inch PVC can take the
pressure..........
Consider some 1/2 inch ID pvc pipe one inch long. The force trying to
split the walls is 1/2 times 1 times the pressure. So if the pressure
is 100 psi the force is 50 psi per inch of length. For 1 inch pipe the
force is 100 psi per inch of lenght. For a tank 18 inches in diameter,
the force would be 1800 psi per inch of length.
The next time you are in a store that sells pvc pipe look at the
pressure ratings for 1/2 inch pvc and for 1 inch pvc and two inch pvc.
You will see that the larger pipe is not rated for as high a pressure
as the smaller pipe.
Dan
Ignoramus31629
used regular rubber hose, and regular 1/4" NPT fittings. It was not
that expensive, easier to work with than PVC, and much safer. I am not
sure what is even the point of using PVC pipe.
http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Basement-Compressed-Air-Plumbing/
I expect the rubber hose to last a decade, or more, and when it fails,
it will be 5 minutes to replace.
i
KIMO
Thanks to all that replied.
Kimo
RoyJ
will run (marginally) when hooked directly to my 1hp compressor tank.
When I hook the same hose to a 40' run of 1/2" copper AND 25' of 1/4"
hose to get it to the garage, the cutoff tool just plain quits. Not
enough flow even though there is enough static pressure.
Ignoramus15692
> You do run into pressure drop issues. I have an air cutoff tool that
> will run (marginally) when hooked directly to my 1hp compressor tank.
> When I hook the same hose to a 40' run of 1/2" copper AND 25' of 1/4"
> hose to get it to the garage, the cutoff tool just plain quits. Not
> enough flow even though there is enough static pressure.
It is a very interesting question, the one I sometimes think about.
Some data points.
1. I usually use air tools upstairs (air hammers, grinders etc). I
always hook them up via a 100 ft hose (really two 50 ft hoses
connected to one another). So far, all those tools were usable. The
hoses are 3/8" ID.
2. The length of piping to the basement (not counting the cheap yellow
coiled hose), is about 30 ft, a lot less than the 100 ft that I use
upstairs (though a small part of the basement's piping is 1/4" ID). I
do not count the yellow hose, since it can always be unplugged for
some unanticipated "heavy use", and a regular hose can be plugged into
the quick connect.
3. I do not anticipate use of heavy tools in the basement (grinders
make dust, not much need for air hammers etc). My guess is that I will
use air for the automatic etcher, a blow gun at very low pressure (to
gently blow off chips), and maybe a small 18 ga nailer/stapler. Maybe
a drill also, in some rare circumstances. I am also thinking of buying
an air screwdriver. Npthing more. I hope that pressure drop would not
be an issue, and I hope to be able to take care of it by setting
higher pressure at various regulators, if the issue arises.
(which brings up a question, has anyone seen regulators that make very
low pressure, like 10-20 PSI, for that blow gun).
4. My compressor is 3 honest HP, and so far no tool that I own was
able to outrun it. Even a big blow gun.
So, I may possibly have to face the pressure drop issue, but I am
hopeful that it would not happen.
i
RAMł
$e8...@fe47.usenetserver.com:
> (which brings up a question, has anyone seen regulators that make very
> low pressure, like 10-20 PSI, for that blow gun).
Try <http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36797>
on for size. At $6.99 they're cheap. [I have a Cambell-Housfield clone that I
bought at Wal-Mart.]
At $9.99, <http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=
90590> looks a little fancier. At Northern Tools, they have a gauge-less
swivel regulator
<http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_12107_
12107> for the same price.
If I were getting one, I'd go for either
<http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_391741_
391741> at $5.29 or <http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?
Itemnumber=7535> at $5.99 which not only have a swivel but, also, are the
cheapest. <grin>
Ignoramus15692
i
Ben
If you hydro-test the tank, how would you get the moisture out of the
tank after draining it?
Just curious.
Balders
You won't have to bother. You'll always get condensate in the tank through
normal use, that's why there's a drain valve ;-)
(sorry, I can't crosspost)
Private
"Ignoramus15692" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.15692.invalid> wrote in message
news:PMvEg.226$e8...@fe47.usenetserver.com...
When it comes to air lines, size matters. IMHO (except for paint sprayer
and blow guns or other low flow needs) the minimum size for air hoses is
3/8" ID and VERY IMPORTANT 3/8" quick couplers and fittings. The pressure
drop through quick couplers is very large and is cumulative, 1/4" couplers
and fittings are IMHO just too small. I do use a short 1/4" whip for paint
guns and other low flow needs. I have a whip with 1/4" female and 3/8" male
couplers so I can use my old 1/4" couplers on some of my low flow tools as
the light flexible whip hose is nicer hanging off the tools. I use a
similar small whip on my OA torch handle for the same reason..
For fixed piping most of the cost is in the labor to fab and install and
this is an easy place to add some storage capacity, IMHO the minimum that
should be used for fixed piping is 3/4" (metal, not plastic) but larger is
better and this is a good place to use a large piece of steel pipe that you
got a great deal on but do not have a use for. A large pipe functioning as
a surge reservoir is called a header and must be built to pressure piping
standards but does not require fabrication to tank or reservoir codes. The
main line or manifold running the length of a shop is a good place to
install a large (pitched down-flow for drainage) pipe to function as a surge
reservoir header or manifold. There is nothing wrong with using hose for
fixed lines but it is hard to keep them at a constant pitch so moisture can
collect in the low spots, hose fittings can also be a cost factor.
If you have a long run of hose or piping or many couplers it is good to add
a portable air tank (bigger the better) close to the work area to store air
close to usage and help with pressure drop caused by line and coupler
restriction. Mounting the compressor remotely will make your shop quieter
(and cooler) but compressors and reservoirs do not like freezing cold or
high humidity (low temp/dew point spread).
just my .02 YMMV
Ignoramus31101
> When it comes to air lines, size matters. IMHO (except for paint sprayer
> and blow guns or other low flow needs) the minimum size for air hoses is
> 3/8" ID and VERY IMPORTANT 3/8" quick couplers and fittings. The pressure
> drop through quick couplers is very large and is cumulative, 1/4" couplers
> and fittings are IMHO just too small. I do use a short 1/4" whip for paint
> guns and other low flow needs. I have a whip with 1/4" female and 3/8" male
> couplers so I can use my old 1/4" couplers on some of my low flow tools as
> the light flexible whip hose is nicer hanging off the tools. I use a
> similar small whip on my OA torch handle for the same reason..
I would like to know what tools do you use where fitting size begins
to matter. Maybe it would be something like an air impact wrench or a
big hammer?
In any case, a pressure drop can be partially compensated for by
simply setting the regulator near the compressor, to higher
pressure. My compressor has a range of about 120-145 PSI, and my main
regulator is set for 90 PSI. So there is some leeway. It seems to
drive my tools satisfactorily (to me), though I connect then via
several 1/4" couplers and fittings. But maybe 'I do not know what I am
missing' and maybe my tools could run better at higher pressure?
> For fixed piping most of the cost is in the labor to fab and install
> and this is an easy place to add some storage capacity, IMHO the
> minimum that should be used for fixed piping is 3/4" (metal, not
> plastic) but larger is better and this is a good place to use a
> large piece of steel pipe that you got a great deal on but do not
> have a use for. A large pipe functioning as a surge reservoir is
> called a header and must be built to pressure piping standards but
> does not require fabrication to tank or reservoir codes. The main
> line or manifold running the length of a shop is a good place to
> install a large (pitched down-flow for drainage) pipe to function as
> a surge reservoir header or manifold. There is nothing wrong with
> using hose for fixed lines but it is hard to keep them at a constant
> pitch so moisture can collect in the low spots, hose fittings can
> also be a cost factor.
You see, I had a very nice 50' rubber hose that I bought at a garage
sale for $1, so I decided to use it. If I had some spare 3/4" iron
pipe, I could possibly use it, but I did not have it and did not feel
like buying it.
Before using that rubber hose, I asked around and people's answer was
that they had these hoses last a long time. When it fails, I will just
put in new one.
> If you have a long run of hose or piping or many couplers it is good to add
> a portable air tank (bigger the better) close to the work area to store air
> close to usage and help with pressure drop caused by line and coupler
> restriction. Mounting the compressor remotely will make your shop quieter
> (and cooler) but compressors and reservoirs do not like freezing cold or
> high humidity (low temp/dew point spread).
That's a very good point. I will check out my refrigerant accumulator
(salvaged from a Fermilab dumpster) tonight to see if it can be used
as an air tank, if so, I will keep it just in case I experience big
pressure drop.
i
Ignoramus31101
> That's a very good point. I will check out my refrigerant accumulator
> (salvaged from a Fermilab dumpster) tonight to see if it can be used
> as an air tank, if so, I will keep it just in case I experience big
> pressure drop.
Picture is here
http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Refrigerant-Accumulator.jpg
i
Eric R Snow
wrote:
>
There is a lot of good info above. Another thing to consider is the
air gun you use. Guardair makes an air gun that uses the Coanda Effect
which is explained here:
http://www.guardaircorp.com/content/airguns.html
Scroll down the page to gun number 80WJ. These air guns draw a ton of
air with them and are much better for blowing things off where lots of
air is better. Drying off parts for example. I use a couple types of
Guardair air guns in my shop now because they are for me most
comfortable and are of high quality.
ERS
Ignoramus31101
>>
> There is a lot of good info above. Another thing to consider is the
> air gun you use. Guardair makes an air gun that uses the Coanda Effect
> which is explained here:
> http://www.guardaircorp.com/content/airguns.html
> Scroll down the page to gun number 80WJ. These air guns draw a ton of
> air with them and are much better for blowing things off where lots of
> air is better. Drying off parts for example. I use a couple types of
> Guardair air guns in my shop now because they are for me most
> comfortable and are of high quality.
> ERS
Looks very good. McMaster carries them also. Thanks Eric. I sold one
of my Internet domains and want to splurge a little bit.
i
Private
"Ignoramus31101" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.31101.invalid> wrote in message
news:vqJEg.22946$6C.1...@fe60.usenetserver.com...
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:42:34 GMT, Private <ple...@dont.bother> wrote:
>> When it comes to air lines, size matters. IMHO (except for paint sprayer
>> and blow guns or other low flow needs) the minimum size for air hoses is
>> 3/8" ID and VERY IMPORTANT 3/8" quick couplers and fittings. The
>> pressure
>> drop through quick couplers is very large and is cumulative, 1/4"
>> couplers
>> and fittings are IMHO just too small. I do use a short 1/4" whip for
>> paint
>> guns and other low flow needs. I have a whip with 1/4" female and 3/8"
>> male
>> couplers so I can use my old 1/4" couplers on some of my low flow tools
>> as
>> the light flexible whip hose is nicer hanging off the tools. I use a
>> similar small whip on my OA torch handle for the same reason..
>
> I would like to know what tools do you use where fitting size begins
> to matter. Maybe it would be something like an air impact wrench or a
> big hammer?
Impact wrenches are a good example of a low duty cycle tool that can operate
well with a small undersized compressor but will definately suffer a large
reduction in torque and impact force when used with small couplers. It was
a Snap-On tool man who told me (when I bought my first CP impact wrench back
when they were really expensive) that coupler size was the biggest factor in
air tool performance and was the source of most complaints of poor
performance.
Welding needle scalers and chippers and small die grinders are also low duty
cycle tools but they are quite tolerant of pressure variation. Air drills
and small grinders and hammers like lots of constant air but the real air
hogs are sanders and big grinders. Arc-Air is another tool that likes lots
of air but can be used in a low duty cycle.
> In any case, a pressure drop can be partially compensated for by
> simply setting the regulator near the compressor, to higher
> pressure. My compressor has a range of about 120-145 PSI, and my main
> regulator is set for 90 PSI. So there is some leeway. It seems to
> drive my tools satisfactorily (to me), though I connect then via
> several 1/4" couplers and fittings. But maybe 'I do not know what I am
> missing' and maybe my tools could run better at higher pressure?
This strategy will give you great variation in pressure at the tool and can
result in overpressure at tool startup. This is a viable strategy if you
have good clamps and hoses and works very well if you use a remote air tank
(close to the work) equiped with a secondary regulator. It does ask the
compressor to work harder. I run all my tools @ 120 psi which I think is a
little above the mfgrs. spec. (105 psi?) but have never had a failure and it
does give the tools lots of snap. I do use a secondary regulator to drop
the pressure to 90 when using air nailers and spikers to avoid driving nails
too deep and since these tools are borrowed I do not use at a higher
pressure than the owner does. A remote secondary inline filter/regulator
with couplers on each end is a very handy tool for varying pressures for
special tools or painting, without changing the compressor setting.
>> For fixed piping most of the cost is in the labor to fab and install
>> and this is an easy place to add some storage capacity, IMHO the
>> minimum that should be used for fixed piping is 3/4" (metal, not
>> plastic) but larger is better and this is a good place to use a
>> large piece of steel pipe that you got a great deal on but do not
>> have a use for. A large pipe functioning as a surge reservoir is
>> called a header and must be built to pressure piping standards but
>> does not require fabrication to tank or reservoir codes. The main
>> line or manifold running the length of a shop is a good place to
>> install a large (pitched down-flow for drainage) pipe to function as
>> a surge reservoir header or manifold. There is nothing wrong with
>> using hose for fixed lines but it is hard to keep them at a constant
>> pitch so moisture can collect in the low spots, hose fittings can
>> also be a cost factor.
>
> You see, I had a very nice 50' rubber hose that I bought at a garage
> sale for $1, so I decided to use it. If I had some spare 3/4" iron
> pipe, I could possibly use it, but I did not have it and did not feel
> like buying it.
>
> Before using that rubber hose, I asked around and people's answer was
> that they had these hoses last a long time. When it fails, I will just
> put in new one.
Using what you have is a strategy we should all use more often. Hose is
cheap and often available (with fittings) very inexpensively from the big
box retailers, buy the 3/8" size as it is seldom much more expensive. The
3/8" couplers are also not much more expensive. IMHO 1/4" fittings and
couplers are never a bargain.
>> If you have a long run of hose or piping or many couplers it is good to
>> add
>> a portable air tank (bigger the better) close to the work area to store
>> air
>> close to usage and help with pressure drop caused by line and coupler
>> restriction. Mounting the compressor remotely will make your shop
>> quieter
>> (and cooler) but compressors and reservoirs do not like freezing cold or
>> high humidity (low temp/dew point spread).
>
> That's a very good point. I will check out my refrigerant accumulator
> (salvaged from a Fermilab dumpster) tonight to see if it can be used
> as an air tank, if so, I will keep it just in case I experience big
> pressure drop.
The tank you pictured seems a little small IMHO. ~5 gal carry air tanks are
often cheap from the big box stores, look for one with some extra fitting
locations so you can add an inlet and an outlet regulator. I often use an
old truck air brake tank and have seen (but do not know the OSHA suitability
or approval) the use of large (100 lb seems to work very effectively mounted
on a cart) and small (20 lb) past dated propane tanks. CAUTION these are
not recommendations and as always YMMV. I suspect we will receive other
opinions shortly.
Ignoramus31101
Interesting. I do have a relatively big air orbital sander. It worked
okay. I would like to get an impact wrench and I will see then, I
suspect that it will, in fact, be an issue for it, as you say.
>> In any case, a pressure drop can be partially compensated for by
>> simply setting the regulator near the compressor, to higher
>> pressure. My compressor has a range of about 120-145 PSI, and my main
>> regulator is set for 90 PSI. So there is some leeway. It seems to
>> drive my tools satisfactorily (to me), though I connect then via
>> several 1/4" couplers and fittings. But maybe 'I do not know what I am
>> missing' and maybe my tools could run better at higher pressure?
>
> This strategy will give you great variation in pressure at the tool and can
> result in overpressure at tool startup. This is a viable strategy if you
> have good clamps and hoses and works very well if you use a remote air tank
> (close to the work) equiped with a secondary regulator. It does ask the
> compressor to work harder. I run all my tools @ 120 psi which I think is a
> little above the mfgrs. spec. (105 psi?) but have never had a failure and it
> does give the tools lots of snap. I do use a secondary regulator to drop
> the pressure to 90 when using air nailers and spikers to avoid driving nails
> too deep and since these tools are borrowed I do not use at a higher
> pressure than the owner does. A remote secondary inline filter/regulator
> with couplers on each end is a very handy tool for varying pressures for
> special tools or painting, without changing the compressor setting.
That's a very good idea (secondary regulator at the end).
Yes, all hose that I have, except that little yellow coiled hose, is
3/8" ID. That includes the hose I used to connect the compressor to
the basement. The difference between pressure drop in 3/8" hose and
1/4" hose is tremendous.
> The 3/8" couplers are also not much more expensive. IMHO 1/4"
> fittings and couplers are never a bargain.
Definitely something to ponder if I get very demanding air tools.
>>> If you have a long run of hose or piping or many couplers it is good to
>>> add
>>> a portable air tank (bigger the better) close to the work area to store
>>> air
>>> close to usage and help with pressure drop caused by line and coupler
>>> restriction. Mounting the compressor remotely will make your shop
>>> quieter
>>> (and cooler) but compressors and reservoirs do not like freezing cold or
>>> high humidity (low temp/dew point spread).
>>
>> That's a very good point. I will check out my refrigerant accumulator
>> (salvaged from a Fermilab dumpster) tonight to see if it can be used
>> as an air tank, if so, I will keep it just in case I experience big
>> pressure drop.
>
> The tank you pictured seems a little small IMHO. ~5 gal carry air tanks are
> often cheap from the big box stores, look for one with some extra fitting
> locations so you can add an inlet and an outlet regulator. I often use an
> old truck air brake tank and have seen (but do not know the OSHA suitability
> or approval) the use of large (100 lb seems to work very effectively mounted
> on a cart) and small (20 lb) past dated propane tanks. CAUTION these are
> not recommendations and as always YMMV. I suspect we will receive other
> opinions shortly.
I will just use a wait and see approach, but you definitely gave you
some things to pay attention to.
Thank you.
i
sylvan butler
> My question is...Im spooky about not having a drain plug on the bottom
> of the tank, and really think I should put one in. What I want to
> do..is drill a proper hole in the bottom of the tank, thread in a 1"
As already decided, that's a bad idea.
What I never saw mentioned, is what about remounting the tank so that an
existing opening is down and put a drain valve under that?
For example, when converting an old propane tank for compressed air,
simply mount it open end down. Put in a Tee, with a drain valve in the
bottom and air in/outlet on the side.
OK, so you like the current orientation of the tank. :)
sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com
Dave Hinz
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:03:51 GMT, Gunner <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>> My question is...Im spooky about not having a drain plug on the bottom
>> of the tank, and really think I should put one in. What I want to
>> do..is drill a proper hole in the bottom of the tank, thread in a 1"
>
> As already decided, that's a bad idea.
I'd agree. Haven't seen you around in too long, Sylvan, have I been
oblivious or have you been away?
Dave
Martin H. Eastburn
Fermilab -
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
http://lufkinced.com/
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Ignoramus12890
> Just a little black matter with attached black energy attached! - Right ?!
> Fermilab -
Yep, Fermilab.
They have some really weird shit and amazing metalworking machinery, I
saw some. Time would warp just from their giant metal mills spinning.
Another thing I picked at their dumpster was this
http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/a-b/
i
> Martin
> Martin H. Eastburn
> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
> NRA LOH & Endowment Member
> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
> http://lufkinced.com/
>
>
>
> Ignoramus31101 wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:25:31 GMT, Ignoramus31101 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.31101.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>That's a very good point. I will check out my refrigerant accumulator
>>>(salvaged from a Fermilab dumpster) tonight to see if it can be used
>>>as an air tank, if so, I will keep it just in case I experience big
>>>pressure drop.
>>
>>
>> Picture is here
>>
>> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Refrigerant-Accumulator.jpg
>>
>>
>> i
>>
>
Gunner
<ZsdbUse1+...@Zbigfoot.Zcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:03:51 GMT, Gunner <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>> My question is...Im spooky about not having a drain plug on the bottom
>> of the tank, and really think I should put one in. What I want to
>> do..is drill a proper hole in the bottom of the tank, thread in a 1"
>
>As already decided, that's a bad idea.
>
>What I never saw mentioned, is what about remounting the tank so that an
>existing opening is down and put a drain valve under that?
>
>For example, when converting an old propane tank for compressed air,
>simply mount it open end down. Put in a Tee, with a drain valve in the
>bottom and air in/outlet on the side.
>
>OK, so you like the current orientation of the tank. :)
>
>sdb
Well...that pesky motor/pump mounting assembly welded to the top of the
tank sorta has something to do with it
<G>
Gunner
Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:23:36 -0600, sylvan butler
><ZsdbUse1+...@Zbigfoot.Zcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:03:51 GMT, Gunner <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>> My question is...Im spooky about not having a drain plug on the bottom
>>> of the tank, and really think I should put one in. What I want to
>>> do..is drill a proper hole in the bottom of the tank, thread in a 1"
>>
>>As already decided, that's a bad idea.
My humble opinion, this is NOT the time to weld up another spare
tire mount - this one could easily kill someone if it lets go. And
with your luck, you.
The stinger drain has worked fine for 60 years, the only thing I
might suggest is to get the bottom end a little closer to the bottom
of the tank so it'll suck out more of the crap.
If you can find someone who will do the work for cheap (tradeout for
equipment service?) who has the proper welding certs, and the shop has
a U stamp for boiler and pressure vessel repairs, go for it. They
have the proper tools and fittings and know all the tricks. And more
important, they know what they CAN'T do safely.
I have this strange feeling that the spuds need to be welded on from
both the inside and the outside during tank construction, before they
weld the two halves of the tank together. If for no other reason than
the inside weld will seal the water out of the gap between the spud
and the tank wall - that's how I'd do it...
Otherwise you'll get rust in the crack over time, and it could
literally push the spud off the tank wall and rip the weld.
This is one of those times when a Lincoln Tombstone, a box of Farmer
Rod and a "Git 'er Done!" attitude ain't gonna cut it. ;-)
How does that line go? Oh yeah: There are Old Welders, there are
Bold Welders, but there aren't too many Old Bold Welders... ;-P
>>What I never saw mentioned, is what about remounting the tank so that an
>>existing opening is down and put a drain valve under that?
>
>Well...that pesky motor/pump mounting assembly welded to the top of the
>tank sorta has something to do with it
Yeah, they really don't work well upside down...
--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.
Gunner
<blPYTHO...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
>
> Otherwise you'll get rust in the crack over time, and it could
>literally push the spud off the tank wall and rip the weld.
>
> This is one of those times when a Lincoln Tombstone, a box of Farmer
>Rod and a "Git 'er Done!" attitude ain't gonna cut it. ;-)
>
> How does that line go? Oh yeah: There are Old Welders, there are
>Bold Welders, but there aren't too many Old Bold Welders... ;-P
>
>>>What I never saw mentioned, is what about remounting the tank so that an
>>>existing opening is down and put a drain valve under that?
>>
>>Well...that pesky motor/pump mounting assembly welded to the top of the
>>tank sorta has something to do with it
>
> Yeah, they really don't work well upside down...
>
> --<< Bruce >>--
I already indicated that Ill leave it as is. Btw..the spare tire
incident (blush) was the result of me being in too much of a hurry to
use a proper machine, of which I do have several....shrug
Miller DiaArch 250 AC/DC (which had the leads 10' to short to reach...)
Airco 300amp Squarewave Tig (with WP18 Torch, Bernard cooler, "rod
saver" stinger and tig/stick leads 15' too short to have reached the
tire carrier)
Lincoln Tig 250/250, Magnum cooler, WP20 torch, and hoses 30' too short.
(since sold)
Dan-Mig 200amp Mig, with a power cord 25' too short
Airco PhaseArc 350amp mig (didnt have the rotory converter running then)
Though..I could have used the Marguette 110vt buzzbox with 3/32 rod <G>
When I built the replacement...I used the Miller, and a few sticks of
Certanium 747 rod, that I have in the 400lbs or so of various kinds of
stick that I keep on hand.
Bad judgement on my part. Pure and simple. Not the first time, wont be
the last, but Ill not be making that sort of mistake again.
It will be a new kind of fuckup, next time. Shrug
Dixon Ranch
"Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote in message
news:PQ4Dg.11164$gY6....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> Never weld a tank or kick a dog unless you have to.
Well, I had to weld a tank, it was a portable air compressor w/5hp Briggs
engine. The tank was leaking where the wheel brackets and the front stand
brackets were welded to the tank.
I knew nothing about the fuss about welding on tanks, I just cleaned the
area around the cracks some, welded the cracks and brackets. No pressure
test, only a leak test. Remounted the engine and compressor and reinstalled
the whole thing back into the pickup bed and used it for many years. Only
thing that changed was the pickups and replacement engines and a compressor.
I suppose that tanks over 150 to 200 lb rating could be another story.
Dixon
Martin H. Eastburn
Lets talk about air. Think electricity. The air hose with a small hole in it
(lengthwise) is like a small conductor. Static pressure is voltage. gallons/sec
or such is current flow.
The issue is on long runs - higher resistance.
If you have water pipes in the basement - you will notice (maybe) larger feeder pipes and
smaller locals. The best example are the water sprinklers in industrial buildings.
8" to 4" branches to 2" mains to 1" delivery. Tree like. Think tree trunk to end tips.
Now if you want to get around a bad system installed - put a tank near the work.
Pump up the tank - e.g. large capacitor or battery. Then pull a hose off the tank.
(or off the line - the tank is just close by on the line.)
The tank will deliver the fast and large volume for a short period. Then it runs low
and call that a duty cycle issue then. :-)
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
http://lufkinced.com/
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