Two Prong outlet replacement
Stephen B.
old 2 prong outlets. I am sure that I only have the hot and neutral in these
outlets, supplyed through grounded metal flex.
Is it allowed to use the the armor as a ground or do I have to find
replacement 2 prong outlets or GFIC outlets?
I know that NYC wrights it own rules, but I am also curease about NEC rules,
so please note which you referance.
Thank you in advance
Stephen
hrho...@att.net
I would check the metal flex with an ohmmeter to see if it is
connected to a cold water pipe somewhere backwards in the line/scheme
of things. If it is, you should be able to use the flex as the safety
ground for the GFI outlet as they trigger on milliampere levels and a
small amount of resistance in the safety ground should not cause the
gfi to fail to trigger properly. I would suggest a level of 10 ohms
or less betrween the flex at the outlet and a water pipe.
Others may have more or less severe recommendations, but that is what
I would do if I were in your situation.
H. R. (Bob) Hofmann
hrho...@att.net
I should add that you only need to use a gfi as the first outlet
closest to the fuse or circuit breaker, all other downstream outlets
can run off the first gfi. So, you do not need to spend the money for
a gfi for all the outlets, only the first one in a string. All the
downstream outlets can bee regular 3-pronmg outlets.
Bob Hofmann
Stephen B.
Thank you Bob.
I wish I could only use one GFI, the wiring on these circuits is old
enough that I am certain they are wired to the ceiling lights and then
down to each outlet seperatly :-( Luckaly these outlets are few and
not used for anything major (and only needing 2 prong), newer circuits
were placed where needed.
With the 10 ohms or less, can I consider the outlet properly grounded
thus no ungrounded sticker?
If I can consider it grounded for the GFI, can I use a regular 3 prong
outlet?
Stephen B.
hrho...@att.net
> <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote
>
> - Show quoted text -
Stephen:
If you are going to put in just a 3-prong outlet, I would look for a
lower resistance, close to 2 ohms max. Assuming a 15 ampere fuse, a
15 amp current flow through the safety ground would raise the voltage
to 30 volts which is enough to give you a shock, but probably not
enough to cause you to be unable to let go.
I would use a GFI in any location where a person could come in contact
with a solid water-based ground, like in a kitchen or bathroom or
maybe a garage or outdoor outlet. The gfi's are well worth their
cost.
Retrofitting old houses is a pain, A couple of years ago I rewired
most of a house my daughter bought while going to college. It still
had knob and tube wiring in some places in the basement ceiling, I
asked the insurance agent how much extra that was raising the
insurance costs, and he said the insurance company didn't care!!!
Hard to believe.
Bob Hofmann
mrob...@worldnet.att.net
> I live in New York City, and have come to realize that I should
> replace some old 2 prong outlets.
The electrical wiring FAQ hasn't been updated for a while, but it has
some good basic info on this. See
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/ and
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part2/ . Part 1 has an
entry on "How do I convert two prong receptacles to three prong?" Note
that the FAQ pretty much only deals with the (US) National Electrical
Code and the Canadian Electrical Code; as you note, New York City may
have its own ideas.
> Is it allowed to use the the armor as a ground
At the time that FAQ was last updated, yes, but you should test to make
sure the armor is a good ground. A multimeter alone won't do it - see
"Testing grounding conductors and grounding electrodes." in part 1 of
the FAQ.
> or do I have to find replacement 2 prong outlets
You can still get these at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. Wal-Mart
Supercenters even used to carry them, but I don't know if they still do.
They will be more expensive than a regular 3-prong outlet, but they
aren't too hard to come by.
> or GFIC outlets?
These are easy to find; if you have several outlets to replace,
sometimes Home Depot or Lowe's will sell "contractor packs" of 5 or 10
or whatever at a bit of a discount.
One problem with GFCIs is that they are physically bigger than regular
outlets. It might be "interesting" to stuff a GFCI and 50-year-old
wiring back into the original outlet box. You might consider adding a
surface-mount box on top of the original box to give you a little more
room without having to tear into the wall. Wiremold makes some boxes
that even look somewhat decent. You can't do this everywhere - in some
places, the surface-mount box will interfere with furniture, people's
shins, etc - but sometimes this can help a lot.
Matt Roberds
Stephen B.
> Stephen B. <spamtr...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> I live in New York City, and have come to realize that I should
>> replace some old 2 prong outlets.
>
> The electrical wiring FAQ hasn't been updated for a while, but it
> has
> some good basic info on this. See
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/ and
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part2/ . Part 1 has an
> entry on "How do I convert two prong receptacles to three prong?"
> Note
> that the FAQ pretty much only deals with the (US) National
> Electrical
> Code and the Canadian Electrical Code; as you note, New York City
> may
> have its own ideas.
>
>> Is it allowed to use the the armor as a ground
>
> At the time that FAQ was last updated, yes, but you should test to
> make
> sure the armor is a good ground. A multimeter alone won't do it -
> see
> "Testing grounding conductors and grounding electrodes." in part 1
> of
> the FAQ.
Thank you for the links, I had not found any that good. So 2 Ohm min
and passing a load test if I convert.
>> or do I have to find replacement 2 prong outlets
>
> You can still get these at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. Wal-Mart
> Supercenters even used to carry them, but I don't know if they still
> do.
> They will be more expensive than a regular 3-prong outlet, but they
> aren't too hard to come by.
Two pronged outlets would make me happiest, leaving no questions that
the ground is not confermed. We have plenty of other outlets available
if we need the ground so it probabuly is the best way for me to go. I
am glad to hear that 2 prong outlets are available I had not found
them on line at Home Depot, Lowes or Grangers, maybe they are not
available on line but only in stores. I will have to check this
weekend.
>> or GFIC outlets?
>
> These are easy to find; if you have several outlets to replace,
> sometimes Home Depot or Lowe's will sell "contractor packs" of 5 or
> 10
> or whatever at a bit of a discount.
>
> One problem with GFCIs is that they are physically bigger than
> regular
> outlets. It might be "interesting" to stuff a GFCI and 50-year-old
> wiring back into the original outlet box. You might consider adding
> a
> surface-mount box on top of the original box to give you a little
> more
> room without having to tear into the wall. Wiremold makes some
> boxes
> that even look somewhat decent. You can't do this everywhere - in
> some
> places, the surface-mount box will interfere with furniture,
> people's
> shins, etc - but sometimes this can help a lot.
I had not thought of the additional size, but I think extending would
be possible if I have to go that route.
Stephen B.
mrob...@worldnet.att.net
> I am glad to hear that 2 prong outlets are available I had not found
> them on line at Home Depot, Lowes or Grangers, maybe they are not
> available on line but only in stores.
I have found that in general, Home Depot and Lowes have many fewer items
on their Web sites than they carry in their stores. They seem to only
list the more expensive items (ones they are willing to ship) on their
Web sites; it's hard to make money if you have to pack and ship a $1
outlet, even if you get to charge for the shipping. Grainger has more
or less everything that they sell on their Web site, but tends to focus
more on commercial/industrial stuff than residential.
It also may be a little bit regional; stores in areas where there are
many older homes are more likely to carry the two-prong outlets, because
I *think* they are only "legal" for replacement use now. It might also
be worth checking smaller hardware stores like True Value and Ace; these
stores tend to stock more things for older homes.
If you can't get them at all at a retail store, you *might* be able to
get them at an electrical supply house. These normally just sell to
electricians on account and will have varying degrees of willingness
to sell things to mortals for cash. Going to the supply house in
person is probably your best bet.
Matt Roberds