Oil and Coal Formation
res7...@verizon.net
decaying aquatic organisms and coal coming from the compression of
decaying land organisms.
this makes me wonder: why do aquatic organisms turn into oil and land
organisms turn into coal? i'd like some references too if you don't
mind
thanks in advance
Rolf Martens
res7...@verizon.net says...
surging up from the earth's mantle. The politicians and
mass media won't accept this, for some nasty political
reasons. But it's a fact.
See several websites linked to at my homepage under
"On the origins of oil and natural gas", in my "Links"
section.
Rolf M.
www.rolf-martens.com
Unknown
oil is a myth. And you sir are a fraud, an idiot, and a cocksucking traitor to
the United States of AMerica.
Now get the fuck out of this newgroup and stay out.
Unknown
> mind
>
Nog
> In article <1142213767.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> res7...@verizon.net says...
>>
>>
>>i many sources i find they say that oil forms from the compression of
>>decaying aquatic organisms and coal coming from the compression of
>>decaying land organisms.
>>
>>this makes me wonder: why do aquatic organisms turn into oil and land
>>organisms turn into coal? i'd like some references too if you don't
>>mind
>>
>>thanks in advance
>>
> Neither is the case. Both of them come from hydrocarbons
> surging up from the earth's mantle. The politicians and
> mass media won't accept this, for some nasty political
> reasons. But it's a fact.
Not entirely true. Peat bogs that get buried and increase in in pressure
turn into coal.
Rolf Martens
Thanks for that compliment!
Rolf M.
www.rolf-martens.com
(former oil & gas company share holder -
only, there soon was no room for free enterprise
ny more in drilling deep into granite, even after
oil had already been found 7,000 m down)
Rolf Martens
>
>
>> i'd like some references too if you don't
>> mind
>>
>I do mind. Leave this group with your oatmeal gibberesh.
Above all, on the actual origins of oil and natural gas:
Gas Resources Corporation, Houston, Texas, USA (J.F. Kenney):
http://www.gasresources.net/index.htm
Also the former homepage of Thomas Gold, now saved at my
homepage, and a site in French "le pétrole abiotique".
Rolf M.
www.rolf-martens.com
Rolf Martens
>
>
>Rolf Martens wrote:
>
>> In article <1142213767.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
>> res7...@verizon.net says...
>>>
>>>
>>>i many sources i find they say that oil forms from the compression of
>>>decaying aquatic organisms and coal coming from the compression of
>>>decaying land organisms.
>>>
>>>this makes me wonder: why do aquatic organisms turn into oil and land
>>>organisms turn into coal? i'd like some references too if you don't
>>>mind
>>>
>>>thanks in advance
>>>
>> Neither is the case. Both of them come from hydrocarbons
>> surging up from the earth's mantle. The politicians and
>> mass media won't accept this, for some nasty political
>> reasons. But it's a fact.
>
> Not entirely true. Peat bogs that get buried and increase in in pressure
>turn into coal.
So lots of books and articles say. But not true, at least
oncerning the "blacker" coals - in which lots of objects
have been found, disproving all possibilitiy of that
compression necessary for coal formation in that way.
Might some brown coals actually form in the way you say?
Thomas Gold thought so. But I doubt it. Do you have some
proof?
Rolf M.
jtno...@yahoo.com
but as far as I can tell, when it comes to hard science, he has always
been careful and correct in his studies, findings, and research. I
can't consider him as a traitor to America because he is not American
and therefore has no duty of loyalty to the USA. If you disagree with
his views, you should present supportable facts and arguments, and not
insults, save those for the trolls that do the same.-Jitney
T.Keating
> I don't agree with many of Rolf Marten's political and social views,
>but as far as I can tell, when it comes to hard science, he has always
>been careful and correct in his studies, findings, and research. I
As I recall.. Rolf rarely provides any supporting links and often
ignores fundamental principles of chemistry and physics.
>can't consider him as a traitor to America because he is not American
>and therefore has no duty of loyalty to the USA. If you disagree with
>his views, you should present supportable facts and arguments, and not
>insults, save those for the trolls that do the same.-Jitney
Rolf's previous abiotic claims and other statements place him squarely
in the usenet kook category.
Here is a link to one of Rolf's famous kook postings.....
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy/msg/7b18875117b638f6?dmode=source&hl=en
where he states...
"Oil simply *cannot* be formed spontaneously (that is,
in nature) at those low temperatures and pressures which
exist close to the earth's surface. This rules the
"bio-origins" hypothesis out."
and a link to one of my responses.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy/msg/9ec8c4074da004a8?dmode=source&hl=en
>Oil simply *cannot* be formed spontaneously (that is,
>in nature) at those low temperatures and pressures which
"And what pressure is that?. 1 mile of water/rock is ~2000 psi..
And ask any chemist, (which you're not one) All reactions are a
function of TIME verses TEMP.. Millions of years can easily make up
for lower temps."
>exist close to the earth's surface. This rules the
>"bio-origins" hypothesis out.
"You must be some sort of neophyte.
Organic to oil conversion to oil occurs every time I cook some meat.
(Same process occurs with all lifeforms.. just in varying degrees)..
My cooking pan...
One pound of hamburger.
Conditions one atmosphere, 250F, 10 minutes.
Fatty organic compounds (almost oil) rendered into Oil.
Pour oil off to reduce calories of meat dish."
jtno...@yahoo.com
platinum, sodium chloride, water, etc? The fact is that we just don't
know. There are hypotheses, to be sure. But nobody was there to observe
it. Maybe it's just there from the beginning of time, whenever that
was, or time immemorial. A few color diagrams in a high school geology
textbook does not constitute a scientific proof. As for your kitchen
lab results:
Organic to oil conversion to oil occurs every time I cook some
meat.
(Same process occurs with all lifeforms.. just in varying degrees)..
My cooking pan...
One pound of hamburger.
Conditions one atmosphere, 250F, 10 minutes.
Fatty organic compounds (almost oil) rendered into Oil.
Pour oil off to reduce calories of meat dish."
You are melting out, not "converting" a glycerol stearic triester that
bears little resemblance to the widely varying mixtures of aliphatic,
naphthenic, and aromatic mixtures that constitute petroleum. The steps
to a true chemical conversion of animal fat to petroleum do not occur
in any conceivable process that would occur in nature as we know it.
The exposure of your ignorance is the best vindication from your insult
that Rolf Martens could ask for.-Jitney
Bob Eld
<res7...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1142213767.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Coal comes from woody material from plants. Most large woody plants grow on
land. To become coal the plants had to collect in layers in an environment
like under shallow water where they would not rapidly decay. They eventually
would be burried under clay or sand to seal them off from the air and weight
them down. Great swamps during the carboniferous age provided these
conditions. Some boggs contain these conditions today. Most plants,
especially on dry land, will never become coal but simply decay and rot away
turning into CO2 by local bacterial action. The burried coal material goes
through many stages of compression and decomposition over time to become
mostly carbon in coal. The material may range from peat, to lignite, to
bitumious coal to anthracite coal and even jet as the carbon content
increases. Plant fossils are readily apparent in the softer young material
but not in the harder coals.
Petroleum comes mostly from algae grown in ocean water. Some animal remains
may also contribute to oil formation. As the algae and animals die they
settle to the bottom where they become entraped in the mud and sand. Ocean
muds are very rich in organic remains. The trapped organic material, sealed
off from oxygen and under pressure of the overlying mud, sand and water,
over time decays into oily bituminous material. Methane gas is also formed
by the decaying action as are a whole range of hydrocarbon materials. The
lighter fractions and gas slowly floats up through the sand and mud matrix
until it gets trapped by an impervious layer of clay, salt or other capping
material that keeps it from rising. There it collects in "pools"
impregnating the sands. This is the petroleum and natural gas we drill for.
Some material never makes it through the muds and becomes tar sand and oil
shale. Other material keeps on rising and never is trapped by any overlying
rock and gets all the way to the surface forming tar and bitumen pits and
tar washing on beaches, etc.
Bob
LongmuirG
> ... Ocean muds are very rich in organic remains. The trapped organic
> material, sealed off from oxygen and under pressure of the overlying
> mud, sand and water, over time decays into oily bituminous material.
> mud matrix until it gets trapped by an impervious layer of clay, salt or
That certainly is the standard model. But there may be some loose
ends. How does the oil generated by temperature/pressure/time within
the organic-rich shales get out of those shales? Remember that
sometimes the same shale appears to be both the source rock and the cap
rock.
There are reportedly some data that shows the permeability of clays to
oil is orders of magnitude higher than that to water -- so it is said.
That might explain how oil could migrate out of the clay-rich shale.
But then, surely that would mean that the shale could not act as a cap
rock?
There may be some pieces of this puzzle that we have missed, or are
simply mis-interpreting.
T.Keating
> Where did the silica come from? And the gold, iron oxide, sulphur,
>platinum, sodium chloride, water, etc? The fact is that we just don't
>know. There are hypotheses, to be sure. But nobody was there to observe
>it. Maybe it's just there from the beginning of time, whenever that
>was, or time immemorial. A few color diagrams in a high school geology
>textbook does not constitute a scientific proof. As for your kitchen
>lab results:
>
> Organic to oil conversion to oil occurs every time I cook some
>meat.
> (Same process occurs with all lifeforms.. just in varying degrees)..
>
>My cooking pan...
> One pound of hamburger.
> Conditions one atmosphere, 250F, 10 minutes.
> Fatty organic compounds (almost oil) rendered into Oil.
> Pour oil off to reduce calories of meat dish."
>
>You are melting out, not "converting" a glycerol stearic triester that
>bears little resemblance to the widely varying mixtures of aliphatic,
"GLC Ranges of Fatty Acid Composition (expressed as percentages)"
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/Y2774E/y2774e05.htm
Rendering mostly medium length(18C) carbon based molecules from a
biological origin. Esters can decompose under the right conditions..
>naphthenic, and aromatic mixtures that constitute petroleum. The steps
As to existence of other compounds, my sample experiment did not
exclude other reactants and possible reactions in the formation of
Crude Oil. (Cracking long chain HC in the absence of H has tendency
to form aromatic compounds.)
>to a true chemical conversion of animal fat to petroleum do not occur
>in any conceivable process that would occur in nature as we know it.
Ever heard of Hydrolysis or hydrous pyrolysis?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrous_pyrolysis
>The exposure of your ignorance is the best vindication from your insult
>that Rolf Martens could ask for.-Jitney
As for decomposition of esters and it's role in the formation of Oil
fields.. Feb 20, 1993
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n8_v143/ai_13528247
"Surreptitiously converting dead matter into oil and coal - Water,
Water Everywhere - Cover Story"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_aset=V-WA-A-W-AWC-MsSWYVW-UUW-U-AAVVEYDBUA-AAVWCZYAUA-DWCEZDDEZ-AWC-U&_rdoc=51&_fmt=summary&_udi=B6V7P-3VGC79M-29&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1998&_cdi=5848&_orig=search&_st=13&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5c8c4b3a9b1a855318262017016bda87
"Comparison with an earlier study of the extractable organic matter
using a similar approach and the same samples provides molecular
evidence that, with increasing maturation, solvent-soluble
macromolecular material was initially released from the kerogen,
notably as a result of thermal cleavage of weak carbon-heteroatom
bonds (sulfide, ester,next term ether) even at temperatures as low as
220°C. "
Obviously, your knowledge of organic chemistry is somewhat limited.
jtno...@yahoo.com
Everybody's knowledge is limited.
Ever heard of Hydrolysis or hydrous pyrolysis?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrous_pyrolysis (snip)
That might account for the lighter hydrocarbons, but not the C-18+
organic molecules that constitute the greater portion of most crude
oils. That would require the mysterious coincidence of non-ester chain
polymerization of monocarboxylic acids coupled with the disappearance
of those reactive groups.
Your other quotes do not support your argument, they confound it by
hypothesizing the breakdown of very high molecular weight organic
structures such as keragen into smaller ones such as those found in
crude oil, rather than progressing upward from your fanciful hamburger
grease/crude oil synthesis. Nice try, but you still lose this
one.-Jitney