hydrogen fuel
Geneen Marie Haugen
6 may 1996
hello--
i don't know how I accessed you folks but I have a very important (to
me) question I am hoping someone out there can and will answer very
soon.
I'm writing an essay about oil exploration in the Arctic National
Wildlife Refuge-- I remember reading some time ago about hydrogen
fueled vehicles, about how hydrogen is the most abundant element
known, and how, when it is burned as fuel, it produces water as a
by-product. I need to know if this information is correct, or if
someone could clarify this for me... It needs to be as simple as
possible because I am not, of course, a scientist and I am writing a
completely non-technical essay, but I am wanting to mention
alternatives to the fossil fuel economy.
Whoever is out there, I thank you so much.
Geneen Marie Haugen
Steve Fischer
Hi Geneen,
There are several alternatative fules available to replace oil, hydrogen
is one of the fules I've been interested in. There are several
locations on the net that should help you out with your essay:
http://www.eren.doe.gov
and
http://www.eren.doe.gov/RE/hydrogen.html
There are probably others - these are just ones I have as bookmarks.
Hydrogen, when burned (oxidized) creates water (H2O). Hydrogen can be
extracted from water through electolisis - running an electrical current
through water to create hydrogen and oxygen. From what I'm reading the
cost to create hydrogen is more expensive than the creation of gassoline
from oil at pressent. There is work being done to harness the sun's
energy to create hydrogen from water but I'm not sure the units are
comercially available yet. I did read an artical that mentioned that
Vancouver BC. was going to employ hydrogen powered busses in the next
couple of years. I'm not sure if the busses were running on hydrogen
directly (as a fule to an internal combustion engine) or employed in
a fule cell which creates electricity to drove an electric motor.
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. I believe one
of the problems with its use has been containment. Hydrogen reacts with
oxygen with very help. The reaction creates heat - typically in the
form of an explosion. I've seen demonstrations of a balloon filled with
hydrogen and oxygen being ignited by a photon caused by the flash from
a camera. There are ways to safely contain hydrogen. There are metals
that absorb hydrogen and release the gas when heated. I believe these
containment systems are called metal hydride containment. They are
probably the safest form of containment, but the metals required are
expensive. Paladium is one of the metals.
Well I'm starting to ramble. Check out the links above. They contain
other links which will probably be of use in your essay. One other
comment, I remember reading an artical back in the 70's about a town in
Utah which had been converted totally to hydrogen as a fiesability
study. They had cars that ran on hydrogen, homes were heated with
hydrogen and they employed solar generation for the creation of
hydrogen. I think the artical was in National Geographic but I'm not
sure. That artical may give you all the info you need.
Good luck - Please excuse the spelling errors
Steve F.
Adam Barker
In article <318D01...@wyoming.com>, imag...@wyoming.com says...
>
>6 may 1996
>
>hello--
>
>i don't know how I accessed you folks but I have a very important (to
>me) question I am hoping someone out there can and will answer very
>soon.
>
>I'm writing an essay about oil exploration in the Arctic National
>Wildlife Refuge-- I remember reading some time ago about hydrogen
>fueled vehicles, about how hydrogen is the most abundant element
>known, and how, when it is burned as fuel, it produces water as a
>by-product. I need to know if this information is correct, or if
>someone could clarify this for me... It needs to be as simple as
>possible because I am not, of course, a scientist and I am writing a
>completely non-technical essay, but I am wanting to mention
>alternatives to the fossil fuel economy.
>
>Whoever is out there, I thank you so much.
Hydrogen is abundant, as you point out, but not in a form that can be used
readily. Most of the world's hydrogen is in the form of water. To use it to
power automobiles (or any other use) water has to be separated to produce
hydrogen gas. The energy required to undertake this separation process will
always be grerater than the energy obtained by burning it. (burning hydrogen
simply recombines it into water releasing heat)
The key to using hydrogen as a fuel is finding a cheap form of electrical
energy generation to separate water. At present the only form of power
generation capable of producing electrical energy in the required quantities is
nuclear, and even then we would need thousands of nuclear power stations to
power the world's automobiles. The development of hydrogen engines, storage
tanks and the like are only going to be true useful if a cheap power source is
discovered. Solar and wind power are obviously good potential sources but at
present are not ecomically or technically viable for large scale power
production.
Adam Barker
Noah Berlove
ar...@eng.cam.ac.uk (Adam Barker) wrote:
>readily. Most of the world's hydrogen is in the form of water. To use it to
>power automobiles (or any other use) water has to be separated to produce
>hydrogen gas. The energy required to undertake this separation process will
>always be grerater than the energy obtained by burning it. (burning hydrogen
>simply recombines it into water releasing heat)
>
Most of the hydrogen produced today come from reforming hydrocarbos,
mostly natural gas. However, this is still an energy intensive process,
or more specifically, more energy is used from gettting the hydrogen than
can be obtained from burning the hydrogen or using it in a fuel cell.
Ryan Newell
Hi, could you please help me understand this a little better?
I just did an experiment with water and two electrodes and two bottles to
catch the gases, (using a power source of 15v). When I turned on the
power, one of the electrodes started to produce huge amounts of bubbles (is
this oxygen?) which I collected in 'bottle 1'. From the other electrode,
small bubbles were produced and they were produced at a slow rate, these
were collected in 'bottle 2'. The color of the water in 'bottle 2' started to
turn blue and stayed that color.
Any response would be appreciated.
=Ryan=
Thanx
J. Hasslberger
In article <4msh65$k...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, ar...@eng.cam.ac.uk (Adam
Barker) wrote:
> Hydrogen is abundant, as you point out, but not in a form that can be used
> readily. Most of the world's hydrogen is in the form of water. To use it to
> power automobiles (or any other use) water has to be separated to produce
> hydrogen gas. The energy required to undertake this separation process will
> always be grerater than the energy obtained by burning it. (burning hydrogen
> simply recombines it into water releasing heat)
>
Here is some more information on hydrogen having been used at various
times as fuel, and not all of these are saying that you need more energy
to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen than what you can obtain by
subsequently burning it.
I know this information is violently contested by some, but for the sake
of completeness, it should be made available to balance the view. Everyone
can draw their own conclusions.
The various methods of hydrogen production I will be writing about are:
1) Yull Brown - Production, by electrolysis, of a gaseous mixture of
hydrogen and oxygen that may be stored under pressure and burned in a
similar way as natural gas.
2) Stanley Meyer - method of separating water into hydrogen and oxygen by
use of high frequency, high voltage electricity.
3) Sam Leslie Leach - method of separating water into hydrogen and oxygen
by ionization through strong ultraviolet radiation.
4) Gianni Dotto - method of separating water into hydrogen and oxygen by
magnetic action after vaporization accompanied by heating.
5) Archie H. Blue - method of electrolysis and combination of resulting
gases with air to form combustible gas.
================================================================
1) YULL BROWN
Brown has developed an apparatus able to separate and subsequently
recombine into a stochiometric gas mixture, the hydrogen and oxygen
contained in water. The gas has been called Brownąs gas and has properties
that make it an ideal energy storage medium. This information is included
here not because of a particularly high efficiency of the process of
electrolysis but because of the possibility of easy handling and storage
of the resulting gas, which would solve some of the problems that afflict
H2 storage and transport at present. Brown has been running automobile
engines on this gas, apparently without difficulties. His electrolysing
units produce between 12 and 13.5 cubic feet of gas per kwh of
electricity. The units are currently being produced in China and are
commercially available.
A good and quite complete description of Brownąs discovery is contained in
a 2-piece series of articles entitled łFire from water˛, published in a
magazine called raum&zeit (Vol. 3 No.2 and Vol. 3 No.3, 1992). The
magazine is now named EXPLORE!, their address is: P.O.Box 1508, Mt.
Vernon, WA 98273.
The articles contain a description of some quite exotic properties of the
flame that results from the burning of Brownąs gas in a welding torch.
EXPLORE! might have more information or later articles on Yull Brown, but
the above is all I have found for now.
================================================================
2) STANLEY MEYER
Stan Meyer of Grove City, Ohio, has developed a hydrogen fracturing
technology based on subjecting fine water mist to the effects of high
frequency pulsed high voltage fields, inside a spherical resonance
chamber. Efficiency apparently is higher than conventional electrolysis.
Meyer says that hydrogen for use as a fuel can be produced on demand,
using his technology. He is miniaturizing components and developing
dedicated electronic chips to control the process. There were 30 patents
granted to Meyer up until 1993 in connection with his ŚWater fuel cell
technologyą. The hydrogen production unit has apparently been installed on
a dune-buggy and been demonstrated (I did not personally attend any
demonstration).
Meyer can be contacted at the following address: ŚWater Fuel Cellą, 3792
Broadway, Grove City, Ohio 43123.
Articles on the technology developed by Meyer can be found in raum&zeit
magazine Vol.3, No.1, 1991, and in EXPLORE! Vol.3, No.4, 1992 and Vol.4?
No.2 1993. (P.O.Box 1508, Mount Vernon, WA 98273).
Also, some information on Meyer is available on Keelynet. The files are
MEYER1.ASC and MEYER2.ASC and can be obtained directly from Keelynet or
through a mirror site on the web.
================================================================
3) SAM LESLIE LEACH
According to the a York Times Special of 20 April 1979, Sam Leslie Leach,
a professional inventor with several basic patents in the field of optics,
has obtained two patents for an invention that he says accomplishes the
economic separation of hydrogen and oxygen gases from water.
The process, as described in the article, subjects water vapor injected
into a reaction chamber to ultraviolet radiation of a specific wavelength,
which ionizes the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Apparently, the radiation is
re-emitted by the atomic gases and so upholds the separation process in a
self-sustaining way, as long as more water vapor is supplied.
Information in the article is scant of technical detail. No contact
address is given. Maybe someone out there would be able to follow this up
and give us more information, especially as to further developments (if
any) after 1979. It appears that Leach ran into a lot of skepticism from
scientists contending that his process Ścould not possibly worką.
================================================================
4) GIANNI DOTTO
Gianni Dotto is an italo/american electrical engineer and inventor who has
described a way of separating distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen,
releasing the oxygen and capturing the hydrogen for use in an internal
combustion engine (motor car) or just for heating purposes. Here is how he
describs his method:
With a Diesel injection pump, bring distilled water up to 240 bar of
pressure, feeding it into a one meter long 1/4 ł stainless steel tube
connected to a very strong expansion valve such as those used for air
conditioning or house gas supply. This is enough to convert the water into
a very thin moisture vapor.
From the first expansion valve, using a four meters long 1/4 " stainless
steel tube that must be maintained at a temperature of at least 90°C,
connect to a second Diesel injection pump, followed by a second expansion
valve, working at 120 bar. The outgoing tube would carry a hydrogen/oxygen
gas mixture.
At the end of a five meter 3/16 " stainless steel tube, connect a very
strong Alnickel permanent magnet with one 1/4 " hole intake but several
outlet holes arranged in a star configuration, with a total of at least 6
outlet holes, each with a diameter of 3/32" alternately having a strong
positive and negative magnetization.
Oxygen gas would come out of the negatively magnetized holes, to be
liberated into the atmosphere, while the hydrogen gas coming out of the
positively magnetized holes should be collected in a conventional methane
tank to be used for running the internal combustion engine.The methane
type tank would be used to store hydrogen produced over the engine's need,
and as a backup for cold starting purposes.
Although the data is not yet independently verified, I would see no harm
in someone trying out to see if the method has merit.
================================================================
5) ARCHIE H. BLUE
Blue is from New Zealand and obtained a patent on a very simple
electrolyzer that he claims will supply a sufficient amount of an
oxygen/hydrogen/air mix to run an internal combustion engine.
His patent (US patent no. 4,124,463 was issued on November 7, 1978. It may
be obtained from the US Patent Office.
A description of the invention of Blue as contained in a published
article, is given below:
Almost all drivers have made the experience that the motor runs better
when it rains. This is also a reason why our parents sprayed coal with
water to make it burn better. Therefore it is no wonder that for years
some drivers have used a kind of water spray injector, which is very
simple. It is a container of plastic or glass, which can be closed
airtight. A thin pipe with an acquarium valve leads through the top cover
down close to the bottom of the container. A second pipe enters only about
5 cm into the container from the top cover and is connected with the
carburetor or the air filter. The container is filled with water to just
below the level of the second pipe. The suction of the carburetor pulls
air through the water in the container and so adds hydrogen and oxygen to
the gas mixture, which results in a lowered consumption of gasoline.
This simple mechanism was improved by the New Zealand inventor Archie Blue
with some additions so that the water vapor alone can run an internal
combustion engine, without gasoline. It runs about 40 km with 1 liter of
water.
His american patent (number 4 124 463) is so simple that anyone with
mechanical skills can produce it. On the non-metallic air pipe that enters
the container, are mounted at equidistant intervals eight corrosion free
round metallic plates, which have been perforated with numerous holes.They
are electrified alternately with positive and negative DC voltage from the
car battery (12 Volt, 2-3 Amp).
The resulting electrolysis separates the water into oxygen and hydrogen
which attach to the metal plates in small bubbles. The airbubbles forced
through the water by the suction of the carburetor take those small
bubbles of hydrogen and oxygen with them to the top of the container. The
energy thus obtained is three times that of gasoline per weight. No
poisonous exhaust gases are produced because the end product of combustion
is water vapor.
The air needs only 4 % of enrichment with these gases to burn hotter and
faster than natural gas.
Warm water is easier to electrolyse and therefore a heating element is
mounted in the bottom of the container.
Here an attempt to reproduce the cell design in ascii:
ELECTROLYTIC CELL
Mixture H2/O2/air (out)
<---- ________________
___________________ ( <---- Air (in)
__________________ ) I ______________
I I I I
_____I I__________I I__________________
/ I I I I /
/ I I /
/ I I /
/ I I /
/ I I /
/ I I /
/ + I I /
12 V DC(+) / ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ - I I /
12 V DC(-) / ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ + I I /
/ ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ - I I /
/ ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ + I I /
/ ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ - I I /
/ ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ + I I /
/ ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ - I I /
/ ---------------I--I--------------- /
/ I I /
/ o o I I o o /
/ o o IooI o o /
/ o <-- air --> o /
/ /
/ /
/______________________________________/
--
Josef Hasslberger
Rome - Italy
<j.hass...@agora.stm.it>
Gordon D. Pusch
In article <3194C5...@voyageur.ca> Ryan Newell
<tne...@voyageur.ca> writes:
> I just did an experiment with water and two electrodes and two
^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> bottles to catch the gases, (using a power source of 15v).
Was it pure water, tap water, softened water, or a salt solution ???
What material(s) were the electrodes made out of ???
> When I turned on the power, one of the electrodes started to
> produce huge amounts of bubbles (is this oxygen?) which I
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It is far more likely that it was hydrogen, which is relatively
insoluable in water, and relatively unlikely to react with the
(presumably metallic) electrodes.
> collected in 'bottle 1'. From the other electrode, small
> bubbles were produced and they were produced at a slow rate,
> these were collected in 'bottle 2'. The color of the water
> in 'bottle 2' started to turn blue and stayed that color.
If you were using salt water or softened water (or possibly even
tap water), the bubbles were probably either oxygen or chlorine;
they probably remained small because both gases are somewhat
soluble in water, as well as highly reactive with most metals.
If you were using copper electrodes, the blue coloration is
probably either copper oxide or copper chloride that has
dissolved in the water.
Gordon D. Pusch | Internet: <pu...@mcs.anl.gov>
Math and C.S. Div., Bldg.203/C254 | FAX: (708) 252-5986
Argonne National Laboratory | Phone: (708) 252-3843
9700 South Cass Ave. |
Argonne, IL USA 60439-4844 | http://www.mcs.anl.gov/people/pusch/
But I don't speak for ANL or the DOE, and they *sure* don't speak for =ME=...
JPMLLM
Mr Pusch is correct and I would add that the volumes collected will tell
you which is which. Specifically, because when water (H2O), is decomposed
every molecule of water will yield twice the volume of hydrogen as it does
oxygen.