Source for quality tiny torx screwdriver bits?

[mike]

I'd like to get a set of tiny torx
screwdriver bits...T9 and smaller
for disassembling tiny electronic gizmos.

I'm looking for a value-priced set.
I already have 10 lifetimes supply
of larger bits, so the large sets
aren't attractive.

The flutes on tiny torx bits aren't very big.
My experience with the bright silver colored
bits get rounded off almost immediately.
The darker colored bits seem to last longer.

The internet is full of sets with almost zero
actual data upon which to base a decision.

Google suggests that terms like S2 and CR-V
don't mean much. Seems that the tempering
has more to do with durability than the
material.

So, any recommendations for a small set of tiny
torx bits that actually hold up under use?

[stra...@yahoo.com]

https://www.harborfreight.com/32-piece-screwdriver-set-with-tweezers-97517.html

I have one of these at work and gave my daughter a set to take to school.
At $7 the quality is decent.

G²

[peterw...@gmail.com]

Mini-Rant Warning:

https://www.amazon.com/PB-Swiss-PB-410-H6-45-L-wrench-T6-T45/dp/B01AW8RRZU/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1545055113&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=pb+swiss+torx&psc=1 Is one option. Made in Switzerland

https://www.wihatools.com/torx-tools/bit-sets?gclid=Cj0KCQiAr93gBRDSARIsADvHiOqYNKwt3F6MML8K-wed4N6EbnDZfXJEc__JuNbASmI4zYx4Hu9SvrUaArr5EALw_wcB Made in USA

https://www.amazon.com/Chapman-MFG-1068-Screws-Screwdriver/dp/B01LWV4ZBP Also Made in USA

Put another way - if we want to keep having access to quality tools, we need to purchase quality tools so that the manufacturers of quality tools remain in business. Sure, the Swiss example is a bit extreme, but were I working on critical equipment where lives were at stake, that is likely the direction I would take.

For everyday or occasional use, I would go with the other options (of many) of US-origin. Why? I want my neighbor to keep his/her job. If I run to China for this sort of stuff, my neighbor is without a job. Pretty much covers it.

Sadly and all to often, there are no other options but Pacific-Rim sourced items. But, far worse than that, is when there are such options, usually quite reasonably priced, and they are ignored. For the record, very nearly any tool available from China via Harbor Freight is available from the USA via any number of sources. Your neighbor will thank you.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Chuck]

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-8-in-1-Precision-Torx-Screwdriver-Set-70381H/302735271?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CBase%7CD25T%7C25-1_HAND+TOOLS%7CNA%7CLIA%7c71700000043839315%7c58700004592003384%7c92700038837660276&gclid=Cj0KCQiAr93gBRDSARIsADvHiOr22bosM03LkORdK-56Md4_lLjurzMk1XXpf59T6jah8gsyPLPJULsaAmZHEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
have held up well for me.

[Fox's Mercantile]

Who is Husky and where did they come from?
In the beginning, they were the OEM for Sears Craftsman
Tools.
Then Sears found someone that would do a cheaper job.
Husky partnered with Home Depot.
If you want quality Craftsman tools, you can buy them at
Home Depot now, instead of the crap they're selling at
Sears.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

[John-Del]

One of the many screw-ups Sears management has pulled over the years. Sears was once far greater than Amazon. Hell, they even sold houses by mail. Now they're on their way out.

[three_jeeps]

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 12:43:01 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

Is what you say true regarding Husky manufacturing for Sears?
Are you implying that Husky is a made in america brand?
(Home Depot is my second home so to speak...IIRC almost every husky thing I looked at was made in China.)
I *really* try to buy made in USA but it is usually hard to find.
So, ppl have been grousing about this state of affairs for 20+ years and very little has changed, possibly getting worse in some areas. I'll stop here at the risk of taking this thread far far OT.
J

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:11:12 -0600, Chuck <c...@dejanews.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 00:19:25 -0800, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>>So, any recommendations for a small set of tiny
>>torx bits that actually hold up under use?

>https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-8-in-1-Precision-Torx-Screwdriver-Set-70381H/302735271

>have held up well for me.

In my never humble opinion, those are not very good. The previous
version of those Husky Torx drivers were wonderful. I have several
sets and found them to be a very good fit and quite rugged. The new
and improved model is garbage, with a sloppy fit. Fast photo:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Husky-Torx.jpg>
The upper driver is the older better model. The lower drive is the
current version which I detest. Notice the sides of the Torx bits.
The old version has sides that are parallel, while the new version is
tapered, producing a smaller point of contact, and a sloppy fit.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[peterw...@gmail.com]

80% of Husky tools are made off-shore, primarily in China, but some in Taiwan and Singapore (same difference, but not Communist - not that China is any form of communism. I expect that in a few years, that 80% will increase to very nearly every...

It is quite hard to purchase US tools OTC these days, but I have had good luck at electrical and plumbing supply houses - those that cater directly to the trade, that is. And, of course, there is Amazon as well as a few good "made in -insert-country-here- tool on-line tool purveyors.

And for everything you purchase that is made "here", your neighbor will thank you!

[mike]

On 12/17/2018 11:20 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:11:12 -0600, Chuck <c...@dejanews.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 00:19:25 -0800, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>>> So, any recommendations for a small set of tiny
>>> torx bits that actually hold up under use?
>
>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-8-in-1-Precision-Torx-Screwdriver-Set-70381H/302735271
>> have held up well for me.
>
> In my never humble opinion, those are not very good. The previous
> version of those Husky Torx drivers were wonderful. I have several
> sets and found them to be a very good fit and quite rugged. The new
> and improved model is garbage, with a sloppy fit. Fast photo:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Husky-Torx.jpg>
> The upper driver is the older better model. The lower drive is the
> current version which I detest. Notice the sides of the Torx bits.
> The old version has sides that are parallel, while the new version is
> tapered, producing a smaller point of contact, and a sloppy fit.
>
>

Sloppy fit aside, I'm more concerned about how well the tips hold up in
the smaller sizes? Are the new TIPS worse than the old ones?

[frankco...@gmail.com]

I don't hate to say it but harbor freight has a decent set I use. If it doesn't work out they are like a 8 dollar loss or just return them

[Jeff Liebermann]

The new tips (bits) are worse. How much worse, I don't know but can
measure the error if necessary. Suffice to say that it's a loose fit.

Torx in any form holds up well because of the large contact area
perpendicular to the direction of force provided by the Torx pattern.
Anything that reduces the contact area, such as a tapered side profile
and a loose fit, it going to reduce its strength. It would be helpful
if you disclose if you are stripping the bit or the mating screw? You
might be dealing with a poor fit, bad metalurgy, or excessive force
(torque).

[frankco...@gmail.com]

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 12:43:01 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

Husky long long long time ago used to be a independent tool manufacturer in the United States, their primary customer was Sears. They were never by any means top of the line but were not crap either. Eventually as conglomerates began to buy out the small brands Husky found it's way into the home depot.

[peterw...@gmail.com]

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 3:15:40 PM UTC-5, frankco...@gmail.com wrote:

> I don't hate to say it but harbor freight has a decent set I use. If it doesn't work out they are like a 8 dollar loss or just return them

I will write this one (1) more time.

Purchasing from Harbor Freight is very nearly never a solution to anything.

And, by doing so, you are voting with your feet and wallet that your neighbor's job and well-being are meaningless to you.

[frankco...@gmail.com]

ahh.

Purchasing from harbor freight is a solution if you have a) limited funding b) one time use of a tool c) diy'er d) sensible

It is not a solution if a) you are manufacturer b) rely heavily on your tools to make your living ...

A benefit of the cheap store is that if it breaks you can probably replace it that day. If one of my SK tools breaks guess what? I have to mail it to SK. If my snap on tool breaks guess what? Have to wait or find a tool truck.

Here's another benefit to the cheap store. Something as simple as a hydraulic jack need not cost $400. Here's another fact. I buy Ingersoll Rand tools and they are made in China. This made in China thing is nothing really new to the united states, but this is the first time we have relied this much on foreign product. I am all for buying American made tools but they're simply over price and there are not many manufacturers left. I bought a 50' 10 gauge extension cord American made... Cost me $90 bucks! The cable is great the ends are crap. Just because it's made in USA does not mean quality. My hammers are all Estwing those were worth the money, but they were reasonably priced!

As far as taking jobs away. That happened decades ago and it is difficult to redeem because well would you work for the wage that a Chinese man receives? When the Mexicans started demanding the wages of American workers is when the manufacturing started to leave Mexico and move to overseas as well. I'm an engineer I do not take jobs from people. I have no control over legislation which imposes regulation on businesses in both the financial and environmental aspects. I am not the reason why small family owned tool companies went out of business or sold out 40+ years ago. I still try to buy American tools, but I'm not going to go high and low to find every tool American made and if I did I can tell you the amount of tools I have I would never be able to afford them to all be made in USA. I was discouraged when I bought a Milwaukee right angle drill and it says made in prc when the display model said made in usa. My delta table saw is made in china. Well only the unisaws were made in usa and not all, they were also made in Brazil.

Whatever we used to make others can make. There is no reason for other countries to buy from us now days. Maybe during the 40's but not now. They have all of our intellectual property and we have supplied them with the machines and known how to make everything.

Condemning harbor freight or the china stores and Chinese are not going to solve any issues. Our current generation is not interested in making tools or anything actually for that matter. Most just want to sit on their behind and play on their stupid phones. Then they want to google all the answers in college...

There is no simple single solution to the financial problems in this country. A good place to start would be at home. Don't buy $1000 cell phone, don't buy 5 dollar coffee matter fact just drink water. Exercise and eat healthy to lower your health care costs and increase your condition of living. Don't buy new cars every few years. Fix your own shit. Stop throwing out and re-purpose, re-use. Use cold water not hot. Ride a bicycle if it's local enough and weather permits. Etc. Lowering costs at home helps free up money. If only the fat cats in government can do this but that's an entirely different argument.

I can say I do all of those things. I have 3 cars, 1987 benz diesel, 03 saab, 95 dodge. Why old cars? Because they all work and serve a purpose and for as long as I can repair it I will drive it. I'm not for this throw away crap. It took enormous energy to make the 3 vehicles and it takes allot of energy to recycle them, so might as well reuse them. When they can no longer be repaired then they will have to be crushed and sent to the smelter. But this throw away culture, atleast on new cars, is because of insurance. They don't want to pay for any type of repair that may be structural because of liability. They also figure the price to repair vs. replace. Despite the fact the waste is the cause of our energy crisis which we have been hearing about for what oh the late 60's.


Peter you bring up a more complex issue than can be solved by simply buying american. No matter how you slice it a foreigner is involved somewhere. Americans are their own worst enemy and most do not even know it. Instead they are focused on that social media crap, bashing the president agree with him or not, and overall just worry about stupid shit rather than learning and working.

If not harbor freight they I would look into SK tools. I do not know if they make precision torx bits. Snap on probably makes some. I don't know of anyone in particular that is american and makes a good set in the upper range.

[mike]

I misunderstood. Thought you were discussing the handle and how it
didn't hold the bits well.

If you're not using an impact driver, there ain't no such thing as
excessive torque.
You apply enough torque to loosen the screw.
Anything less is useless.
If the bit rounds off or breaks before the screw
turns, it's not an acceptable tool.
If it damages the screw in the process, you've got problems
well in excess of a $2 screwdriver bit.

Since I don't have any of the tiny bits, my experience
is with T7 to T10. I found the shiny bits
round off very easily. The dull grey or black
bits hold up better.

I have shattered bits with the impact driver, but
that's not the issue when taking apart a phone.

[whit3rd]

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 12:15:40 PM UTC-8, frankco...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 3:19:38 AM UTC-5, mike wrote:
> > I'd like to get a set of tiny torx
> > screwdriver bits...T9 and smaller

> I don't hate to say it but harbor freight has a decent set I use. If it doesn't work out they are like a 8 dollar loss or just return them

Yeah, the Pittsburgh Pro 34-pc is my go-to set, as well. You want to FEEL the fit and seating
of the tip, so most 1/4" hex handles don't suit this purpose: that HF set has a tightenable
chuck on the handle, and 4.0mm hex tips, so it isn't ideal: the shank is short, so the
diameter of the chuck needs clearance less than 2cm from the screw head.
The Pittsburgh chuck has weak holding of the tip, but there's fixes for that.

Ideally, you want a couple of inches of shank behind each tip; some Craftsman
screwdrivers are good in this way, but I haven't tried 'em (and won't, unless there's a sale)
... see pix on Amazon <http://a.co/d/erqEGAc>

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 00:19:25 -0800, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:

Greetings Mike,
I use tiny Torx drivers a lot. Pretty much every day. I have found the
the WIHA brand drivers to be the best. The best fit in the fasteners
and the best durability. By far. I am sure there are other brands just
as good. I don't know which though. Probably none any appreciably
better though. And boatloads of cheap crap that's way worse.
Eric

[stra...@yahoo.com]

I also use Wiha drivers at work but Peter will still be unhappy. While they are not made in China, they are also not made in USA. They are German.

I used to use Xcelite made in USA but hey are poor quality compared to Wiha and to add insult, they cost more.

G²

[frankco...@gmail.com]

I have quite a few German made tools myself and I cannot even recall one bad experience. Heyco, Stahlwille, Bosch, etc you name it all darn good. They usually wear out rather than break. I have a new SK ratchet paid 70 bucks and it broke a week after I bought it... My craftsman still works. Thing is the old school craftsman was usually made be Western Forge a subsidiary of Ideal industries which now owns the SK name. Allot of craftsman tools were made by SK, Proto, there's a couple others but they aren't coming to me.

Anyways. Peter seems to forget that Americans would rather buy American and be employed. But when it comes to over priced tool vs. Food on table... Besides the economy is more complex than the average home owner would know. A business owner particularly one in manufacturing knows the struggle.

I really don't have too many made in China tools break. I've either been lucky or I know how to pick my tools. I know how to pick my tools.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:42:52 -0600, Fox's Mercantile <jda...@att.net>
wrote:

>Who is Husky and where did they come from?

These might help:

"Who owns what brands"
<https://pow-jrk.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Tool-Brand-Behemoths-Tool-Companies-Who-Owns-What-Brands.jpg>
Husky is in the lower right corner.

Currently, the Husky name is owned by Home Despot:
<http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4807:kigunh.2.7>
There are multiple listings under the Husky trademark, one for each
type of tool sold by Home Depot. My guess is about 300 listings.

Husky tools now have a lifetime warranty.
<https://toolguyd.com/husky-tools-forever-guarantee/>
Since the quality of Husky tools seems to be going downhill, it's
cheaper for Home Despot to offer a lifetime warranty to replace those
few tools that are returned as defective, than to fix the quality
problems for everyone.

More:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husky_(tools)>
<https://pressurewashr.com/tool-industry-behemoths/>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 14:08:18 -0800, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:

>I misunderstood. Thought you were discussing the handle and how it
>didn't hold the bits well.

No. It's the way the bit is made that's the problem. Torx drivers
and screw heads have a torque limit:
<https://www.wihatools.com/torx-sizes>
Exceed the torque limit and bad things happen. However, this table
assumes that the bit and screw head are perfectly mated fit, with no
air gap anywhere on surfaces perpendicular to the direction of applied
force. If there's an air gap, the force (torque) will be applied to a
much smaller area than with a perfect fit. It doesn't take much of an
air gap, especially small screw heads which don't have much mating
area anyway. That's why the tapered sides of the new and
not-so-improved Husky bits are a problem. There is quite a reduction
in contact area near the too narrow tip, and quite an air gap due to
the tapered fit.

>If you're not using an impact driver, there ain't no such thing as
>excessive torque.

I beg to differ. Look at the max torque specs at the above URL and
test your ability to apply torque with some kind of torsion torque
tester. This one should cover T2 to T10 screws:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/392178731130>
I just tried it with a small torque wrench and found that I could do
about 8 ft-lbs or about 11 newton-meters. That's sufficient to hit
maximum for a T20 screw head far more than necessary to strip out the
tiny screws found in cell phones.

>If the bit rounds off or breaks before the screw
>turns, it's not an acceptable tool.

Maybe. If the bit was a good mating fit for the screw head, then yes,
it's probably junk. However, if it was a sloppy fit and/or had air
gaps, I could also blame the screw or bit depending on which one was
poorly made. There's also a question of metallurgy. If the bit were
properly heat treated, only the outside surface would be hardened and
annealed, while the core would be softer steel. That would give the
maximum hardness to protect the surface from gouging, and a somewhat
flexible core to give the bit strength. However, as the bit becomes
smaller and smaller, more of the material becomes hardened and
annealed steel, until the tip becomes very hard and very brittle. Do
anything wrong while driving this type of brittle bit, and it's going
to break.

>If it damages the screw in the process, you've got problems
>well in excess of a $2 screwdriver bit.

I have a collection of screw extractors and center drilling jigs. I
rarely need them.

>Since I don't have any of the tiny bits, my experience
>is with T7 to T10. I found the shiny bits
>round off very easily. The dull grey or black
>bits hold up better.

Most of the bits are electroplated with some kind of chromium
anti-rust compound. In the past, screwdriver tips were hardened
giving them a darkish color. This was the symbol of quality for
Proto, SK, and other quality screwdrivers. Now, every manufacturer
does this, except there's no hardening and the darkish color is either
an acid etch or paint.

>I have shattered bits with the impact driver, but
>that's not the issue when taking apart a phone.

Hint: If you feel the need to use an impact driver to remove a screw,
it's probably a left handed screw thread. (e.g. early Motorola
DynaTac and MicroTac).

Suggestions:
1. Don't use driver bits. There's nothing really wrong with them
except that the handles are too large for smaller size Torx screws.
2. I have a few of these "precision" Wiha Torx tools:
<https://www.wihatools.com/torx-tools/precision-screwdrivers>
which I use for working on smartphones. They work very nicely.
3. Test the fit of whatever driver you purchase against the screw
head before applying main force. There are some really weird screw
heads out there.

[stra...@yahoo.com]

OK, you're making a fuss about Harbor Freight and I get your point BUT there are times where I want something I'm only going to use a few times and cheapo is good enough. BTW that Husky tool for $6 from Home Depot includes front/back photos of the package which clearly says Made in China.

G²

[peterw...@gmail.com]

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 6:14:15 PM UTC-5, stra...@yahoo.com wrote:
c
>
> I also use Wiha drivers at work but Peter will still be unhappy. While they are not made in China, they are also not made in USA. They are German.
>
> I used to use Xcelite made in USA but hey are poor quality compared to Wiha and to add insult, they cost more.

Not so much on the German or Swiss stuff. That will be premium, and I concede that need for those that need that level of ultra-reliability. When I was working as a machinist - and signing off on aircraft parts (full signature, not initials), the tools I used were either Swiss, German, or Starrett-level American. And those things that measured got calibrated every quarter.

Point being that if one needs tools of that quality, one has few choices.

[Chuck]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:20:24 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:11:12 -0600, Chuck <c...@dejanews.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 00:19:25 -0800, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>>>So, any recommendations for a small set of tiny
>>>torx bits that actually hold up under use?
>
>>https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-8-in-1-Precision-Torx-Screwdriver-Set-70381H/302735271
>>have held up well for me.
>
>In my never humble opinion, those are not very good. The previous
>version of those Husky Torx drivers were wonderful. I have several
>sets and found them to be a very good fit and quite rugged. The new
>and improved model is garbage, with a sloppy fit. Fast photo:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Husky-Torx.jpg>
>The upper driver is the older better model. The lower drive is the
>current version which I detest. Notice the sides of the Torx bits.
>The old version has sides that are parallel, while the new version is
>tapered, producing a smaller point of contact, and a sloppy fit.

Jeff,
Didn't know they changed. I have the old version.