Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

[micky]

Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has to
be bright.

The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have they
ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's probably
blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really comparisons.

The one below at Home Depot from Lithonia Lighting says it has "2
efficient 10-watt LEDs" where the two incandescent lights would
otherwise be. The picture shows two circular devices, each divided
into 3 120-degree parts, with what looks like a small concave reflector
with an LED in the middle of each part. I guess they are saying the 3
together use 10 watts. Are there really 3 1/3 watt LEDs, and is 10
watts from an LED as much light as 100 watts incandescent?? That's what
the floodlights use now, 200 watts total per fixture.

The maker's website
http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2-head+led+floodlight+with+motion+sensor.html#.VDrPJ1fDuM0
says "Each head contains (3) 4780K high performance LEDs. Lumen output
of 1,222 is maintained at 50,000 hour life. LED driver is 120V and
operates at 60Hz."

I like the idea of LED, because it's very difficult to change the bulb
on one of my two** double-flloodlights.***, but not if it's not going to
light up the area.

Mostly what I'm looking for is a light that won't go on because of the
wind, but will go on when a person walks by.

This one, despite the high price, $116, only has 6 LEDs (2 by HD's
counting method!).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-Twin-Head-LED-Outdoor-Motion-Sensing-Bronze-Floodlight-OFLR-6LC-120-MO-BZ/202598344

The same thing with three sets of three LEDs is 150 dollars, implying
that one group of three and the holder is $34
The same thing with photocell but no motion sensor is 98 dollars,
impliying that they're only charging 18 dollars for the motion sensor
and most of the price is for the LEDs.

Thanks.


Details that the electronics guys may find boring. Hey, everyone may
find them boring!
**The other floodlight in the back of the house I put in right under my
bedroom window, so I can just lean out and change the bulb. I wired it
from the receptacle just below the window, so little effort to run the
wires, and it sure looks better than several of my neighbors' who let an
electrician or handyman run surface Romex or conduit from the back porch
light, most of whom no longer have a back porch light.

*** It's chest high when I'm in the attic, so that's about 24 feet (?,
two story house, plus attic. The first floor is about a foot above the
ground.) and I don't have a ladder that long. What I've done to adjust
the light sensor and change the bulb is to unscrew the winged folding
toggle nut inside the attic, remove the big washer, disconnect the Romex
and tie a string to the end of the wire, and lower the whole fixture to
the ground. Do my work there, and pull tthe fixture back up. The hard
parts are getting the romex through its hole, and gettting the long
screw to go though its assigned hole (which is a lot bigger than the
screw, but still not easy to find) so I can screw the toggle nut back
on. I've done this twice with no more than 10 minutes each time trying
to get the screw through, but I fear some time it will take me hours,
and it woudl be nice if it used LED's and never burned out. But at 23
feet high, the light has to be bright!!

[Bob F]

micky wrote:
> Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

The city street lights on my block are now LEDs, and they are plenty bright.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 15:17:59 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

Yes. Spend $15 or more on a Lux Meter (photometer), measure the spot
intensities, and see for yourself:
<www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=lux+meter+photometer>
I have one of these:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/110764870937>

However, there's a problem. The total light output of an LED light is
rated in lumens, not lux. Lux is just the intensity at a given point.
Focus the beam, and you get a really high lux value. Spread it out
into your floodlight, and the intensity is much less. Lumens is the
total output, in all directions. The right way to measure that is
with an integrating sphere:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrating_sphere>
My way is much easier, but not terribly accurate. However, it will do
nicely for comparisons. I recently threw together the procedure and
posted it to the rec.bicycles.tech newsgroup. Cut-n-pasted:

1. Point light at the wall in a dark room at a distance of 1 meter.
There's nothing sacred about the 1 meter distance. If 1 meter seems
too close, just pick another distance.

2. Measure the spot diameter on the wall. If the light slowly fades
away from the hot spot, just guess the half brightness points. If the
spot is oval shaped, measure both the maximum and minimum diameters
and calculate an average.

3. At the same 1 meter distance, use the Lux meter to measure the
brightness. This is not really correct, since lumens is the total
brightness, including the over spray. The brightness will also follow
a Gaussian curve over the spot diameter.

4. Calculate the beam width in degrees. Dust off the long forgotten
inverse trigonometric functions on your calculator:
Beam_width_in_degrees = 2 * arctan (spot_radius/dist)
where:
spot_radius = 1/2 * spot diameter, in your favorite units of measure
dist = distance between light and spot in same units of measure.

5. Using the values of lux, distance, and beamwidth, plug into one of
the calculators at:
<http://www.ledrise.com/shop_content.php?coID=19>
<https://ledstuff.co.nz/data_calculators.php>
to obtain lumens.

I would be interested in collecting results as I only have a few
bicycle lights and flashlights suitable for testing. Please include
measurements, maker, model, battery type, manufacturers rated lumens,
and condition of battery (new, used, old, leaking, dead). So far:

Light spot_dia dist width bright calc mfg
(cm) (cm) (deg) (lux) (lumens) (lumens)
5w Cree light hi 80 100 43.6 480 216 500
5w Cree light hi 51 100 28.6 900 175 500
5w Cree light lo 80 100 43.6 140 63 ?
Planet Bike 1 watt 20 100 11.4 3000 93 76 (new batt)
Maglite 3D LED 13 100 7.4 3600 47 131 (old batt)

There are other problems when comparing LED and incandescent
brightness. The spectra is not the same. Therefore the perceived
brightness will vary with the color temperature. Most lights have
some amount of over-spray outside of the spot area. The lux meter
will not capture these, resulting in some error. The intensity across
the spot is not uniform but tends to follow a Gaussian curve. Some
lights have a very hot spot in the middle, and then just fade out
towards the edges. Do your best and see how close to the rated lumens
you get.

Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Mark]

On 10/12/2014 3:17 PM, micky wrote:
> Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?
>
> The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has to
> be bright.
>
> The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have they
> ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's probably
> blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really comparisons.
>
> The one below at Home Depot from Lithonia Lighting says it has "2

Can't help you out on the question. But, I installed 21 Lithonia LED
can lights throughout my place. They cost a bit more than other brands,
but been real pleased with the lights/looks. Had to have 1 replacement
afterwards, and they sent me 2 with no questions asked.

[dadiOH]

"micky" <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:gigl3adc5thb486h3...@4ax.com

> Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?
>
> The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has to
> be bright.
>
> The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have they
> ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's probably
> blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really comparisons.
>
> The one below at Home Depot from Lithonia Lighting says it has "2
> efficient 10-watt LEDs" where the two incandescent lights would
> otherwise be. The picture shows two circular devices, each divided
> into 3 120-degree parts, with what looks like a small concave reflector
> with an LED in the middle of each part. I guess they are saying the 3
> together use 10 watts. Are there really 3 1/3 watt LEDs, and is 10
> watts from an LED as much light as 100 watts incandescent?? That's what
> the floodlights use now, 200 watts total per fixture.

Compare lumens, no watts. Watts= enegy to produce lumens.

A reflector also makes a huge difference over a raw bulb. Type of
reflector also makes a difference...a given area at a given distance from
the light source will receive more light from a narrow beam reflector than
from a wide beam reflector.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[Trevor Wilson]

**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
Lumens/Watt. Good quality LEDs can manage between 100 ~ 120 Lumens/Watt.
I recently purchased a cheap, Chinese 100 Watt LED + power supply.
Without a reflector, it provides superior lighting to a standard 500
Watt halogen lamp (with reflector).

I took a couple of photos and found that the camera saw things
differently to the human eye. Although the halogen was distinctly yellow
and the LED very white, the amount of illumination was similar.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

[Michael Black]

I remember a few years back starting to cross on what I thought was a
green light, except it was red. I was somehow taking in the next corner's
light, that turned green earlier, and it had to be an LED arrangement,
because it was so much brighter than the light closer to me.

Michael

[micky]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 01:06:30 +0200, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>
>I have a Pelican flashlight with a single LED light source. That
>flashlight is brighter than the old equivalent model Pelican Flashlights
>with the incandescent bulbs.
>
>So, yes, LED's can be brighter than incandescent bulbs.
>
>I expect you'll have no problems with the LED flood light.

Thanks all.

It turns out this time that the HD price is the same as Amazon, maybe
less, but I just went to the store** and it wasn't in stock. I'm in no
hurry. I'll ship it to the store, or maybe to my house (over 50 dollars
shipping is free)


BTW, it got quite a few complaints about strobing or breaking within a
year on the Amazon site (and also on the HD site that was hard to read)
but overall still scored a 4.8 out of 5 (which should really be 3.8 out
of 4)


**HD didn't have any LED Lithonia floodlights, even though they had a 6
foot wide section, 15 feet high, of Lithonia floodlights etc.
Including a motion sensor that would wirelessly turn on an off mulitple
light sockets. And another one that would turn on and off a receptacle,
and beep when it did so.

WRT lights for the front door, they had Zenith/Heath that had low
lighting for 2, 4 hours or all night, and high lighting if the motion
sensor saw something. And some of the lights by Hampton Bay (house
brand?) had sensor that could control 325 watts, even though the most
that could be used in the light was 100. The other 225 could be
elsewhere, powered by the extra red wire. Lighting has gotten more
complicated since last I looked.

[micky]

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 15:17:59 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

Well, someone -- thank you -- reminded me to look at lumens

>
>The maker's website
>http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2-head+led+floodlight+with+motion+sensor.html#.VDrPJ1fDuM0
>says "Each head contains (3) 4780K high performance LEDs. Lumen output
>of 1,222 is maintained at 50,000 hour life. LED driver is 120V and

=========
>operates at 60Hz."

I wasn't sure if this was per head, so I looked at the 3 head version,
and it said "Each head contains (3) 5339K high performance LEDs which
maintain 1,719 lumen output "

Different K value, but I guess they are giving the total, as they should
be.

And then I looked at 100 watt incandescent. About 1500 lumen times 2 =
3000 lumen.

So since I really can't judge how bright 1222 lumens from LEDs will be,
I don't kow whether to buy that 1222 for $117 or 1719 for $150.


Or stay with incandescent for much less and hope they don't burn out so
fast if I get a good brand that doesn't turn on with the wind. I
almost never go there at night so if they don't turn on in the wind,
they'll burn less than 5 hours a year 2000 hour lifespan will be 400
years. Ugh.

[Tony Hwang]

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Out kitchen had 75W pot flood lights. All been replaced with bright white
(color temp. 5000K,60W equivalent Philips bulbs dimmable, it is as bright as
ole bulbs. No problem. Most of bulbs in the house is now all LEDs. Could see
some difference in the power bill. They run always cool. Good in summer
time.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 20:52:58 -0600, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>Most of bulbs in the house is now all LEDs. Could see
>some difference in the power bill.

I didn't do so well. Through LED lighting transplants and juggling
some electronics, I managed to drop my monthly electric burn from an
average of 375 kw-hr in 2008 to about 315 kw-hr average in 2014. See
spreadsheet and graph at:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/PG&E to Sept 2014-01.xls>
Note the trend lines. While my electricity consumption was going
down, PG&E was busy raising their rates and juggling the tiers. The
result was despite the lower consumption, I am still paying roughly
the same per month. Grumble.

Some analysis with a clamp on ammeter and kill-a-watt meter showed
that the bulk of my electric usage is the electric water heater. They
don't make an LED water heater and solar is not an option in a forest.
I'm looking into flash water heaters, but it looks like it would take
years to recover the initial investment. A wood burning water heater
using a hot tub as a hot water tank is a possibility, but doesn't work
well with my convenience lifestyle.

[Tim R]

>
>
> *** It's chest high when I'm in the attic, so that's about 24 feet (?,
>
> two story house, plus attic. The first floor is about a foot above the
>
> ground.) and I don't have a ladder that long. What I've done to adjust
>
> the light sensor and change the bulb is to unscrew the winged folding
>
> toggle nut inside the attic, remove the big washer, disconnect the Romex
>
> and tie a string to the end of the wire, and lower the whole fixture to
>
> the ground. Do my work there, and pull tthe fixture back up. The hard
>
> parts are getting the romex through its hole, and gettting the long
>
> screw to go though its assigned hole (which is a lot bigger than the
>
> screw, but still not easy to find) so I can screw the toggle nut back
>
> on. I've done this twice with no more than 10 minutes each time trying
>
> to get the screw through, but I fear some time it will take me hours,
>
> and it woudl be nice if it used LED's and never burned out. But at 23
>
> feet high, the light has to be bright!!

That's genius. If it were me I'd put my energy into making it even easier. But lowering it to the ground is by far the easiest way. Have you ever wondered how they change bulbs in those high mast freeway lights? They don't climb, the fixture lowers on a cable.

I only have one LED lamp in the house. I use it every day and it's been about four years, but one data point doesn't say much. I've only changed two outdoor floods in 6 years. I bought fluorescent replacements but am still waiting for one to fail so I can try them.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 10/12/2014 3:17 PM, micky wrote:

> Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?
>
> The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has to
> be bright.
>
> The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have they
> ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's probably
> blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really comparisons.
>

I recently replaced a 95W flood light on the garage with an LED. It is
a whiter light and looks to be much brighter. I'm going to replace the
other bulb soon too. I really like it. The fixture is mounted about 15
feet high and give plenty of light in the driveway.

[WW]

"micky" wrote in message news:gigl3adc5thb486h3...@4ax.com...

Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has to
be bright.

Snip



I have a one Cree LED porch light that senses movement on our front porch.
Amazing how bright and coverage it has. Reflector of course. WW

[Trevor Wilson]

On 13/10/2014 8:58 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

>
> **In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
> Lumens/Watt.

**Oops. Make that 15 ~ 20 Lumens/Watt.


--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 10/12/2014 11:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>
> I didn't do so well. Through LED lighting transplants and juggling
> some electronics, I managed to drop my monthly electric burn from an
> average of 375 kw-hr in 2008 to about 315 kw-hr average in 2014.

Typical use here is 750 kw so overall, you are doing well.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
We consume around 1000KWh per month. Down from ~1300KWh.
I think our 4 person electric Sauna sucks lot of juice even running on 220V.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/12/2014 3:17 PM, micky wrote:

> Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?
>
> The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has to
> be bright.
>
> The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have they
> ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's probably
> blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really comparisons.
>

The general answer is yes. My church has some flood
lights at the end of the gymnasium, and also in the
chapel. The facilities guys put in LED floods, which
work fine. They say the bulbs cost twenty to thirty
dollars each.

I'd test the bulb on the ground at night before
taking it that far in the air. Rig up a lamp cord.


--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/13/2014 2:23 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
> Hi,
> We consume around 1000KWh per month. Down from ~1300KWh.
> I think our 4 person electric Sauna sucks lot of juice even running on
> 220V.

If the unit was 110 V, do you think the
cost would be different?

Hint: Watt is a unit of work. You pay for
watts.

[BenignBodger]

On 10/12/2014 3:17 PM, micky wrote:

Yes, you can buy LED lighting units which make your standard 100W
incandescent flood bulb look like a dim candle. Readily-available
off-the-shelf units which replace a big sodium vapor lamp are rated a
10,000 - 12,000 Lumens with 150W power input. Typically these will require
an external motion sensor unit but that can be a real advantage in many
situations where you are worried about false triggering.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 12:20:25 +0100, Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote:

>Air source or ground source Heatpump might be the answer for your water
>heating by electricity - worth a look? C+

Thanks. I didn't know a heat pump water heater existed. As I skim
thruogh the online literature, I read that heat pumps are good for
room heating/cooling, but not so good for heating water. Some larger
ones use a water tank for a heat conducting fluid, but the water is
not meant to be consumed. There are heat pump water heaters:
<http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/heat-pump-water-heaters>
but those are geothermal, not air source. Looking at prices, such
water heaters start at about $1,000 plus installation. I haven't run
the numbers yet, but I suspect the expected savings in electricity
would not cover the cost of the installed system within its expected
lifetime (or mine). I'll do some more reading and see where it leads.
Thanks again.

My solution to the hot water problem is a nuclear powered water
heater. Just a lump of some isotope that produces heat while breaking
down. Fukushima should have plenty of the stuff worth mining. The
nuclear water heater would be lead lined and buried for safety. Water
temperature would be regulated by adding or removing radioactive
pellets. There are also some safety issues that will need to be
addressed.

Actually, this is all academic as we're having a water shortage in
California and unless it rains this winter, there isn't going to be
any water to heat. Meanwhile, I'll probably just do a better job of
insulating the tank and hot water pipes and wait patiently for the
rain and a nuclear water heater.

[Ismo Salonen]

Actyally you pay for energy, kWh ( kilowatthours) not for power ( as
watt is).

ismo

[William Sommerwerck]

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:dpsn3a9dhdbuc81vm...@4ax.com...

> Thanks. I didn't know a heat pump water heater existed.

GE has been pushing theirs for several years, with commercials featuring
irresistibly adorable snow monkeys.

I considered getting one, but the dealer told me they don't work well in a
condo, because it's hard to make a good "ground" connection.

Flash heaters have been around for at least 60 years (probably longer). My
father sold appliances and used to talk about them. CU discussed them several
years ago, and decided that their high cost and difficulty of installation did
not make them (generally) a good choice. Of course, if you use substantial
amounts of hot water all day long, they make sense.

[Jon Elson]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

> On 13/10/2014 8:58 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>
>> **In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
>> Lumens/Watt.
>
> **Oops. Make that 15 ~ 20 Lumens/Watt.
>
>

Still quite mediocre. I've been building my own LED retrofits for
indoor lighting, using Cree 100 Lm/W LEDs. When you add the power
supply, you are down to 80 Lm/W or so, but that is still pretty
good, even better than good CFLs.

Jon

[micky]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 08:58:56 +1100, Trevor Wilson
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

>
>
>**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
>Lumens/Watt. Good quality LEDs can manage between 100 ~ 120 Lumens/Watt.
>I recently purchased a cheap, Chinese 100 Watt LED + power supply.
>Without a reflector, it provides superior lighting to a standard 500
>Watt halogen lamp (with reflector).
>
>I took a couple of photos and found that the camera saw things
>differently to the human eye. Although the halogen was distinctly yellow
>and the LED very white, the amount of illumination was similar.
>

You're right should have compared lumens earlier on.

The maker's website
http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2-head+led+floodlight+with+motion+sensor.html#.VDrPJ1fDuM0

says about the one I was interested in "Each head contains (3) 4780K

high performance LEDs. Lumen output of 1,222 "

That's total for both heads. 1719 Lumens for a 3-head version.

Then I looked at 100 watt incandescent. Between 1000 and 1500 lumen
times 2 bulbs = 2000 to 3000 lumen.

So I don't know whether to buy 1222 LED lumens for $117 or 1719 lumens
for $150.

Or stay with incandescent for maybe $35 and hope they don't burn out so

[John Robertson]

50W LED flood is around 4,000 Lumens...and you can get them for around
$80USD @ Home Depot.

Do try to get ones that are UL (or CSA for Canada) approved for safety's
sake.


John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[micky]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 15:11:51 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
wrote:

>On 10/13/2014, 2:31 PM, micky wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 08:58:56 +1100, Trevor Wilson
>> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> **In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
>>> Lumens/Watt. Good quality LEDs can manage between 100 ~ 120 Lumens/Watt.
>>> I recently purchased a cheap, Chinese 100 Watt LED + power supply.
>>> Without a reflector, it provides superior lighting to a standard 500
>>> Watt halogen lamp (with reflector).
>>>
>>> I took a couple of photos and found that the camera saw things
>>> differently to the human eye. Although the halogen was distinctly yellow
>>> and the LED very white, the amount of illumination was similar.
>>>
>>
>> You're right should have compared lumens earlier on.
>>
>> The maker's website
>> http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2-head+led+floodlight+with+motion+sensor.html#.VDrPJ1fDuM0
>> says about the one I was interested in "Each head contains (3) 4780K
>> high performance LEDs. Lumen output of 1,222 "
>>
>> That's total for both heads. 1719 Lumens for a 3-head version.
>>
>> Then I looked at 100 watt incandescent. Between 1000 and 1500 lumen
>> times 2 bulbs = 2000 to 3000 lumen.
>>
>> So I don't know whether to buy 1222 LED lumens for $117 or 1719 lumens
>> for $150.

These are Home Depot prices.

>> Or stay with incandescent for maybe $35 and hope they don't burn out so
>> fast if I get a good brand that doesn't turn on with the wind. I
>> almost never go there at night so if they don't turn on in the wind,
>> they'll burn less than 5 hours a year 2000 hour lifespan will be 400
>> years. Ugh.
>>
>
>50W LED flood is around 4,000 Lumens...and you can get them for around
>$80USD @ Home Depot.

With motion sensor and light sensorr? I really don't think so.
$117 was the cheapest I found there, and it was only 1222 lumen total
from the two "heads".

[Trevor Wilson]

**Indeed, but that is one crappy power supply you're using. My 100 Watt
LED modules (cheap, Chinese stuff) are supplied with a constant current
power supply that runs around 95% efficiency. Dunno about the final
Lumens/Watt figure though. I don't trust the Chinese figures supplied
with the LED module. I do know that the thing is plenty bright though.

FWIW: I retro-fitted electronic ballasts to my workshop 2 X 37 Watt (4
foot, NEC HGX) linear fluoros a few years back. Very impressive
reduction in power demands. 96 Watts down to 78 Watts. 3,740 Lumens/tube
(according to NEC). 95 Lumens/Watt (when the tubes are new, of course).
Not too shabby. I tried a couple of those LED fluoro replacements, but I
don't much care for them, compared to the NEC Quad phosphor units.




--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/14/2014 2:43 AM, Charlie+ wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 09:07:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote as underneath :

>
>> My solution to the hot water problem is a nuclear powered water
>> heater. Just a lump of some isotope that produces heat while breaking
>> down. Fukushima should have plenty of the stuff worth mining. The
>> nuclear water heater would be lead lined and buried for safety. Water
>> temperature would be regulated by adding or removing radioactive
>> pellets. There are also some safety issues that will need to be
>> addressed.
>>
>> Actually, this is all academic as we're having a water shortage in
>> California and unless it rains this winter, there isn't going to be
>> any water to heat. Meanwhile, I'll probably just do a better job of
>> insulating the tank and hot water pipes and wait patiently for the
>> rain and a nuclear water heater.
>

> Interesting, I am UK based and energy costs here are probably much
> higher here than in US which may alter the costings so much that a heat
> pump wont be feasible for you... Here is a link for info that might
> help:
> http://www.wharfplumbing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Wharf-Air-Source-Heat-Pump-Docs.zip
> I checked with Ebay.com and ebay.co.uk - completely different answers if
> you feed in 'air source/water heat pump'.
> The low cost heatpumps are mostly produced in China anyway and I guess
> many are sold in the US for pool heating and air conditioning? But if
> your electricity costs are low then the payback time on the equipment
> may not make sense just for a little domestic hot water... Ground
> source is much more expensive on the outlay than air source! C+
>

I'd suggest to buy one, and try it in some sort of
fixture, before going up the pole. I'd dare to guess
the answer is yes, but you'd have to try it for
yourself.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:43:04 +0100, Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote:

>Interesting, I am UK based and energy costs here are probably much
>higher here than in US which may alter the costings so much that a heat
>pump wont be feasible for you...

True. The alleged savings of a heat pump water heater would be in the
reduced operating costs due to improved efficiency. My hot water
usage is so small that the initial entry costs (equipment,
installation, plumbing, and permits) would negate any short term
savings. Short term is important as I'm 66 years old, and would not
want to invest in a technology with a break even point that occurs
after I'm dead. I would do better with short term solutions, such as
better tank and plumbing insulation, which provide an immediate
savings with a minimal investment. (Actually, I'm looking for an
excuse to buy a FLIR thermal camera to play with).

>Here is a link for info that might help:
>http://www.wharfplumbing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Wharf-Air-Source-Heat-Pump-Docs.zip

Thanks. The plumbing diagram of a complete systems, with gas water
heater backup, and a typical installation, was sufficient to convince
me this was not an option for me. The amount of construction involved
in the installation alone is more than I could justify. I suspect
that an air source water heating system would be more suitable for a
larger installation, or for where the cost of electricity is much
higher.

>I checked with Ebay.com and ebay.co.uk - completely different answers if
>you feed in 'air source/water heat pump'.
>The low cost heatpumps are mostly produced in China anyway and I guess
>many are sold in the US for pool heating and air conditioning?

I don't know, but that seems likely. Swimming pool heating, hot tubs,
air conditioning, and apartment building water heating seem like a
better fit, where the savings in electricity would be larger than the
amortized initial investment.

Incidentally, you might be amused at how water heaters are rated and
priced. A few years ago, the bottom of my 40 gallon electric water
heater filled with calcium carbonate causing the lower heating element
to blow out. It was rusted in place and not easily replaced. The
heater was old, so I decided a new heater was best. I went to the
local Home Depot store and noticed that heaters were rated and priced
by their warranty life as 6, 9, and 12 year heaters. Current prices
are:
<http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Residential-Electric/N-5yc1vZc1u1Z2bcu0t?NCNI-5>
$248, $338, and $548 respectively. I asked what was the difference
and received a few bad guesses. The weight of these heaters was
exactly the same, so there was no difference in tank design or
construction. The 6 year heater used lower power elements, but that
shouldn't effect the cost.

I eventually determined that the primary difference was the anode
protection rod in each heater. The 6 year heater used a very small
anode rod. The 9 year used a much larger anode. The 12 year had dual
anodes. The problem was the rods cost about $25/each which is
reflected in the $100 to $200 price difference between the three
models. The 6 year heater had the port for the 2nd anode sealed shut,
so I bought the 9 year model, and added a 2nd anode for a cost of
about $25. Net savings from the 12 year model:
$548 - $338 - $25 = $185
I also installed a permanent drain line, so that the calcium carbonate
will not accumulate again.

>But if
>your electricity costs are low then the payback time on the equipment
>may not make sense just for a little domestic hot water... Ground
>source is much more expensive on the outlay than air source! C+

Yep. That's the problem. The most efficient system is not always the
most economical.

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:57:42 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 01:06:30 +0200, nestork
><nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>I have a Pelican flashlight with a single LED light source. That
>>flashlight is brighter than the old equivalent model Pelican Flashlights
>>with the incandescent bulbs.
>>
>>So, yes, LED's can be brighter than incandescent bulbs.
>>
>>I expect you'll have no problems with the LED flood light.
>
>Thanks all.
>
>It turns out this time that the HD price is the same as Amazon, maybe
>less, but I just went to the store** and it wasn't in stock. I'm in no
>hurry. I'll ship it to the store, or maybe to my house (over 50 dollars
>shipping is free)
>
>
>BTW, it got quite a few complaints about strobing or breaking within a
>year on the Amazon site (and also on the HD site that was hard to read)
>but overall still scored a 4.8 out of 5 (which should really be 3.8 out
>of 4)
>
>
>**HD didn't have any LED Lithonia floodlights, even though they had a 6
>foot wide section, 15 feet high, of Lithonia floodlights etc.
>Including a motion sensor that would wirelessly turn on an off mulitple
>light sockets. And another one that would turn on and off a receptacle,
>and beep when it did so.
>
>WRT lights for the front door, they had Zenith/Heath that had low
>lighting for 2, 4 hours or all night, and high lighting if the motion
>sensor saw something. And some of the lights by Hampton Bay (house
>brand?) had sensor that could control 325 watts, even though the most
>that could be used in the light was 100. The other 225 could be
>elsewhere, powered by the extra red wire. Lighting has gotten more
>complicated since last I looked.
If you are sensitive to strobing you should be wary of lights that
others complain of strobing . Some fluorescent lights I have appear
to flicker in my peripheral vision. Not only is this distracting just
because of the flickering or strobing, I also find myself constantly
looking for whatever is moving. Using incandescent lighting along with
fluorescent lighting cures the strobing or flickering effect for me so
I have both in my shop. I can't detect the strobing by looking
directly at the lights, it is only in my peripheral vision. This of
course makes sense. I want to change to LED lighting and have been
looking at several types and brands of lighting. Part of the problem
is getting lighting that is the right color for me. The industry seems
to be making LED lighting now that is pretty good for most folks so I
am hopeful that in the near future I will be able to convert my
machine shop and house to LEDs.
Eric

[micky]

But, since they don't make what suits your needs, just think of all the
work changing things that you don't have to do.

[John Robertson]

On 10/14/2014, 7:13 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:43:04 +0100, Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote:
>
>> Interesting, I am UK based and energy costs here are probably much
>> higher here than in US which may alter the costings so much that a heat
>> pump wont be feasible for you...

...

Of course you should change your anode every few years - assuming you
can extract it. The house we bought last summer has a replaceable anode
but I can't unscrew it. The tank will fail in a year or two, but then
I'm looking for one with a replaceable anode and do a bi-annual change.

John :-#)#

>
>> But if
>> your electricity costs are low then the payback time on the equipment
>> may not make sense just for a little domestic hot water... Ground
>> source is much more expensive on the outlay than air source! C+
>
> Yep. That's the problem. The most efficient system is not always the
> most economical.
>
>
>


--

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:32:01 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
wrote:

>Of course you should change your anode every few years - assuming you
>can extract it. The house we bought last summer has a replaceable anode
>but I can't unscrew it. The tank will fail in a year or two, but then
>I'm looking for one with a replaceable anode and do a bi-annual change.

I learned a few lessons trying to extract the anode rod from the old
tank. With the tank empty, a long handled "torque amplifier" did a
great job of twisting the water heater jacket into a simulated
pretzel. I didn't know I was that strong. It might have survived if
it had water inside and I didn't put my foot on the jacket when
applying brute force. Learn by Destroying(tm).

When I mentioned the problem to a plumber, he indicated that it was a
common problem, and that an electric or pneumatic impact wrench works
much better. I didn't have a reason to try it, so I don't know if
that's really a good idea. Also, when I installed the 2nd anode rod,
I smeared it with some edible grease. Insulating it with Teflon tape
doesn't seem like a good idea. In a year or two, try the impact
wrench.

I found some instructions on how to remove the rod, which recommends
WD-40 and an impact wrench. Getting the WD-40 out of the water is
going to be interesting since it's not water soluble.
<http://waterheatertimer.org/Replace-anode-rod.html>

In my derangement, I didn't have enough clearance above the water
heater to insert or remove the rod. They make anodes that are on a
chain to make it possible to replace them without proper clearance,
but I didn't buy one of those. So, I tipped over the water heater,
inserted the 2nd rod, tipped it back up, and continued the
installation. When it's time to replace either rod, I'll need to
drain the heater, disconnect everything, tip it over again, and
extract the rods. Not fun, bad planning, etc.

I'm not sure of the exact anode replacement interval. The previous
water heater lasted about 15 years before the lime accumulation killed
the lower heater element. I assume the lifetime is affected by
whatever is in the water. Inspecting the anode rod would be helpful,
but if it's stuck or difficult to remove, that might be difficult.

Good luck and how did we get from LED lighting to water heaters?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:59:20 +0100, Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote:

>What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
>magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these type
>of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this type.. !
>Informative post tho! C+

Not copper. That would be far too expensive. The tank is made from
steel, which is either enamel or glass coated for protection. The
problem is that the glass or enamel can crack (or micro-crack)
allowing the water to contact the steel and eventually corrode a hole
in the tank. The sacrificial anode corrodes instead of the steel
tank. It's exactly the same as the common zinc sacrificial anode used
to protect steel hulls on boats.

Note: I am not a plumber, expert on hot water tanks, or hydraulic
engineer. I just happen to have had some experience replacing my
water tank twice in 35 years and found it useful to first read the
available literature before making any more mistakes.

[Jerry Peters]

In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:32:01 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Of course you should change your anode every few years - assuming you
>>can extract it. The house we bought last summer has a replaceable anode
>>but I can't unscrew it. The tank will fail in a year or two, but then
>>I'm looking for one with a replaceable anode and do a bi-annual change.
>
> I learned a few lessons trying to extract the anode rod from the old
> tank. With the tank empty, a long handled "torque amplifier" did a
> great job of twisting the water heater jacket into a simulated
> pretzel. I didn't know I was that strong. It might have survived if
> it had water inside and I didn't put my foot on the jacket when
> applying brute force. Learn by Destroying(tm).

Same method I used, except the heater had 40 gallons of water in it.
It didn't move, but eventually the anode rod cap did.

>
> When I mentioned the problem to a plumber, he indicated that it was a
> common problem, and that an electric or pneumatic impact wrench works
> much better. I didn't have a reason to try it, so I don't know if
> that's really a good idea. Also, when I installed the 2nd anode rod,
> I smeared it with some edible grease. Insulating it with Teflon tape
> doesn't seem like a good idea. In a year or two, try the impact
> wrench.

Seriously? You think the teflon tape will insulate it? Pipe threads
are designed for an interference fit, the pipe threads will cut
through the tape with ease. The tape is just to fill the gap between
the male & female threads.

>
> I found some instructions on how to remove the rod, which recommends
> WD-40 and an impact wrench. Getting the WD-40 out of the water is
> going to be interesting since it's not water soluble.
> <http://waterheatertimer.org/Replace-anode-rod.html>
>
> In my derangement, I didn't have enough clearance above the water
> heater to insert or remove the rod. They make anodes that are on a
> chain to make it possible to replace them without proper clearance,
> but I didn't buy one of those. So, I tipped over the water heater,
> inserted the 2nd rod, tipped it back up, and continued the
> installation. When it's time to replace either rod, I'll need to
> drain the heater, disconnect everything, tip it over again, and
> extract the rods. Not fun, bad planning, etc.

Just bend the rods when you remove them, they're either magnesium or
aluminum alloy on a wire. Replace with the bendable variety.

>
> I'm not sure of the exact anode replacement interval. The previous
> water heater lasted about 15 years before the lime accumulation killed
> the lower heater element. I assume the lifetime is affected by
> whatever is in the water. Inspecting the anode rod would be helpful,
> but if it's stuck or difficult to remove, that might be difficult.

Inspect the rods every year or two, when you start to see mostly wire
it's time for replacement.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/15/2014 4:07 PM, Jerry Peters wrote:
>> I learned a few lessons trying to extract the anode rod from the old
>> tank. With the tank empty, a long handled "torque amplifier" did a
>> great job of twisting the water heater jacket into a simulated
>> pretzel. I didn't know I was that strong. It might have survived if
>> it had water inside and I didn't put my foot on the jacket when
>> applying brute force. Learn by Destroying(tm).
>
> Same method I used, except the heater had 40 gallons of water in it.
> It didn't move, but eventually the anode rod cap did.
>>

>> Good luck and how did we get from LED lighting to water heaters?
>>

The ones I got off ebay (shopping for price) were
dim. But, the ones they used over the church
are really great.

-

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 20:07:02 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
<je...@example.invalid> wrote:

>In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

>> Insulating it with Teflon tape
>> doesn't seem like a good idea. In a year or two, try the impact
>> wrench.

>Seriously? You think the teflon tape will insulate it?

No. It would reduce the contact area. However, the current through
the anode is so low, it probably would make no difference.

>Pipe threads
>are designed for an interference fit, the pipe threads will cut
>through the tape with ease. The tape is just to fill the gap between
>the male & female threads.

With Teflon tape filling the gaps, I can re-insert the rod using less
torque than I would with a metal to metal fit, thus making it easier
to remove at a later date, and hopefully maintaining a leak proof
seal. At least that's my theory, which remains untested.

>Just bend the rods when you remove them, they're either magnesium or
>aluminum alloy on a wire. Replace with the bendable variety.

This was a new rod that I was trying to insert, so bending was not an
option. I should have purchased the sausage style of rod.

>Inspect the rods every year or two, when you start to see mostly wire
>it's time for replacement.

On my water heater (GE/Rheem something), I have two separate holes for
the two rods. On some others, the 2nd rod is combined with the hot
water outlet, making inspection rather awkward:
<http://waterheatertimer.org/images/Anode-top-of-heater-600.jpg>
<http://waterheatertimer.org/Replace-anode-rod.html>
I'm tempted to add yet another hole and see if a borescope inspection
camera will.

[Scott Lurndal]

micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/approach-lights-problems-lead-broader-examination-led-rollout

[micky]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 15:11:51 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
wrote:

I pretty much retract my first reply. I found over 2000 lumen, with
motion sensor for $89, at Lowes, not HD.

>
>Do try to get ones that are UL (or CSA for Canada) approved for safety's
>sake.

For sure. Thanks.
>
>John :-#)#

[Dimitrij Klingbeil]

On 12.10.2014 21:17, micky wrote:
> Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?
>

> The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has
> to be bright.
>
> The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have
> they ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's
> probably blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really
> comparisons.
>
> The one below at Home Depot from Lithonia Lighting says it has "2
> efficient 10-watt LEDs" where the two incandescent lights would
> otherwise be. The picture shows two circular devices, each divided
> into 3 120-degree parts, with what looks like a small concave
> reflector with an LED in the middle of each part. I guess they are
> saying the 3 together use 10 watts. Are there really 3 1/3 watt
> LEDs, and is 10 watts from an LED as much light as 100 watts
> incandescent?? That's what the floodlights use now, 200 watts total
> per fixture.

The manufacturer of the LED lamp has published some photometric data
(accessible via the link you posted). According to that data, the
luminary in question has a maximum output of 1165 lumens (lm).

That 1165 lm is not very much.

A normal (non-halogen) 200W incandescent lamp has a light output of 2500
lm (according to the datasheet for the Osram "Centra A CL 200"), and
that's a "mechanically rugged" type lamp with a thick filament that is
not even particularly efficient.

A 200W halogen incandescent lamp has a light output of 3500 lm (3520 lm
according to the datasheet for the Philips "Plusline Small 200W R7s 230V").

Depending on how efficient your previous lamp has been, you'll likely
need to either double or triple the LED lamp in order to match it.

Regards
Dimitrij

[micky]

I had a halogen light there for a whlle, but the socket on one side
burned out, or got hot and crumbled. I didn't even think about
efficency when it was installed, or when I replaced it. Shame on me.

>Depending on how efficient your previous lamp has been, you'll likely
>need to either double or triple the LED lamp in order to match it.

I ended up getting an led fixture that rates itself twice as bright as
the url I gave in the OP. I'm not going to say what it is, because I've
learned from experience that one or more people will tell me it's no
good, and I don't want to hear that now, since I've already bought it
and may put ii in any minute now.
>
>Regards
>Dimitrij

Thanks for the informative reply. For the sake of electricity, I'm glad
I didn't get incandescent this time. Maybe no more lightbulb changing.

(I hope to go away for a few weeks next february and I didn't want to
wait until spring to fix the lights.)

[micky]

True. But otoh, the appliance is rated in watts. People have to keep
track of their own time, the time they keep the tub hot, which is
presumably the same no matter what the voltage.
>
>ismo

[Stormin Mormon]

Do you think it would be different, running on
110 volts?


--

[micky]

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 00:28:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:59:20 +0100, Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote:
>
>>What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
>>magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these type
>>of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this type.. !
>>Informative post tho! C+
>
>Not copper. That would be far too expensive. The tank is made from
>steel, which is either enamel or glass coated for protection. The
>problem is that the glass or enamel can crack (or micro-crack)
>allowing the water to contact the steel and eventually corrode a hole
>in the tank.

Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
was no cracking.

It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)

When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
>heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
>plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
>the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
>because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
>was no cracking.
>
>It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
>the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
>but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)
>
>When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
>they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
>I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.

Mine is electric. See:
"What's inside a hot water heater?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaFt9rCzsyY>
The video showing the inside of the tank start at about 4:30. As far
as I can see, it's just a steel tank with some manner of plating on
the inside. That's roughly what I found when I sawed apart my
original water heater, except that there was much more rust and lime
accumulation. Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.

Here's collection of AO Smith residential gas water heater data
sheets:
<http://www.hotwater.com/resources/product-literature/spec-sheets/residential-gas/>
I checked a few and most offer variations on the glass lining such as:
"BLUE DIAMOND ® GLASS COATING
An A. O. Smith exclusive provides superior corrosion
resistance compared to the industry-standard glasslining"

[Scott Lurndal]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:

Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
>would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.
>

Have you never boiled water in a styrofoam cup over an open flame?

One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
melting point.

[Jerry Peters]

In sci.electronics.repair micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 00:28:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:59:20 +0100, Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote:
>>
>>>What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
>>>magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these type
>>>of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this type.. !
>>>Informative post tho! C+
>>
>>Not copper. That would be far too expensive. The tank is made from
>>steel, which is either enamel or glass coated for protection. The
>>problem is that the glass or enamel can crack (or micro-crack)
>>allowing the water to contact the steel and eventually corrode a hole
>>in the tank.
>
> Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
> heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
> plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
> the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
> because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
> was no cracking.
>
> It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
> the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
> but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)

I thought I remembered seeing a Sears plastic electric HWH many years
ago. Do they still make them, or did they last too long?

>
> When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
> they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
> I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.

Think porcelin like a sink or bath tub. It's firmly bonded to the
metal.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:44:12 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>>On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>>wrote:
> Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
>>would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.

>Have you never boiled water in a styrofoam cup over an open flame?

Yes. It requires a heat spreader between the cup and the flame. Apply
the flame directly and the hot spot will burn a hole in the styrofoam.

>One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
>melting point.

True. However, a gas water heater has to deal with stratification,
where the water is much hotter near the flame than near the tank
outlet. I couldn't determine how much of a temperature difference by
Googling. You're probably correct that it won't melt if it's decent
plastic, but I'm still suspicious. Unless secured to the steel tank,
it might soften, warp, bend, buckle, or otherwise provide an excuse
for water to get to the steel. From there, it's only the anode rod
that protects the steel tank from corrosion.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:06:13 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
<je...@example.invalid> wrote:

>Think porcelin like a sink or bath tub. It's firmly bonded to the
>metal.

Well, let's do the math.
Coefficient of linear expansion for:
steel = 12*10^-6 m/m-K
alumina = 5.4*10^-6 m/m-K

<http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-thermal-expansion-d_1379.html>
From 25C to 100C (near the burner) on a 2 meter high tank, the steel
will expand:
12*10^-6 m/m-K * 2m * (100-25) = 1.8 mm
and the ceramic:
5.4*10^-6 m/m-K * 2m * (100-25) = 0.8 mm
1mm difference doesn't sound like much, but if both materials are
rigid, it could easily delaminate. The alumina ceramic is very rigid,
but the steel can bend. If the tank were allowed to bulge slightly in
the middle, it would work, if the alumina can survive being under
constant tension without cracking.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/17/2014 10:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:44:12 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>

>> One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
>> melting point.
>
> True. However, a gas water heater has to deal with stratification,
> where the water is much hotter near the flame than near the tank
> outlet. I couldn't determine how much of a temperature difference by
> Googling. You're probably correct that it won't melt if it's decent
> plastic, but I'm still suspicious. Unless secured to the steel tank,
> it might soften, warp, bend, buckle, or otherwise provide an excuse
> for water to get to the steel. From there, it's only the anode rod
> that protects the steel tank from corrosion.
>

Yes, I've seen LED flood lights that were plenty bright.

[micky]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:20:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
>>heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
>>plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
>>the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
>>because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
>>was no cracking.
>>
>>It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
>>the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
>>but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)
>>
>>When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
>>they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
>>I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.
>
>Mine is electric. See:
>"What's inside a hot water heater?"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaFt9rCzsyY>

No time tonight to watch this. Tomorrow.

>The video showing the inside of the tank start at about 4:30. As far
>as I can see, it's just a steel tank with some manner of plating on
>the inside. That's roughly what I found when I sawed apart my

BTW, I learned that you can saw though the outermost rather thin steel
layer of a water heater (the part that you see) with a reciprocating
saw, even if the blade no longer has any teeth. They all wore away but
it still cut fairly well. Certainly it wasn't worth changing the
blade.

>original water heater, except that there was much more rust and lime
>accumulation. Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I

I woudn't call it soft. It bent, but it wasn't flimsy. Maybe the
stiffness was a little greater than a bicycle tire.

>would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.

My water heaters are electric too.

>
>Here's collection of AO Smith residential gas water heater data
>sheets:
><http://www.hotwater.com/resources/product-literature/spec-sheets/residential-gas/>

Tomorrow I'll look to see if they have electric.

[micky]

>On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
>>heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
>>plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
>>the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
>>because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
>>was no cracking.
>>
>>It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
>>the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
>>but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)

I wanted to check if my water heater was advertised as glass-lines, so I
started looking on the web. Then it dawned on me that a better way
would be to look on the water heater, which probably still has labels on
it. (Yes, it has several.)

And the top label includes "Cobalt Blue Ultra-Coat (or Cote) Glass
Lining." but I'll bet you any money that this Kenmore water heater is
built just the same as the last one, with the 1/4" (or slightly less,
not more like I said.) layer of clear/milky vinyl?, something like
plastic milk cartons would be if they were thicker, probably with glass
mixed in, because otherwise t hey couldn't say "glass lining". Or
maybe it's largely crushed glass in some "plastic" medium.

I think Kenmore is AOSmith because the intake and output pipes are
exactly the same distance apart as the wh that came with the house (when
no other brand I looked at had that. I'm compulsive. I didn't want to
use flexible and I didn't want zig-zag piping. ) And the front panels
were the same (although maybe they all use the same thermostats and
heaters.) Basically everything looks the same as the original.

[Ian Malcolm]

Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote in
news:d46s3adns1rbqk3ei...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:13:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote as underneath :
>
> snip

> snip

>
> What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
> magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these
> type of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this
> type.. ! Informative post tho! C+

Over in the UK they tend to be copper or stainless and maintenance free
lifespans of 40+ years are not unusual. e.g. Albion brand stainless hot
water cylinders dont use any anodes and have a 25 year anti-corrosion
warrenty on the tank. The immersion heater element circuit should be RCD
protected, both for safety and so that any insulation failure will be
detected before significant electrolytic corrosion can occur.

Whoever first introduced vitreous enamel-lined mild steel hot water tanks
to the American market did you all a great disservice.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL

[Jerry Peters]

In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:44:12 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>>>On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>>>wrote:
>> Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
>>>would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.
>
>>Have you never boiled water in a styrofoam cup over an open flame?
>
> Yes. It requires a heat spreader between the cup and the flame. Apply
> the flame directly and the hot spot will burn a hole in the styrofoam.
>
>>One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
>>melting point.
>
> True. However, a gas water heater has to deal with stratification,
> where the water is much hotter near the flame than near the tank
> outlet. I couldn't determine how much of a temperature difference by
> Googling. You're probably correct that it won't melt if it's decent
> plastic, but I'm still suspicious. Unless secured to the steel tank,
> it might soften, warp, bend, buckle, or otherwise provide an excuse
> for water to get to the steel. From there, it's only the anode rod
> that protects the steel tank from corrosion.

ALso plastic doesn't conduct heat all that well, leading to an
inefficient WH. Also a gas HWH has a pretty powerful burner, mine's
rated at 40,000 BTU/hour input. I suspect you suspicions about the
plastic buckling/warping and separating from the steel tank are
correct.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 20:13:17 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
<je...@example.invalid> wrote:

>ALso plastic doesn't conduct heat all that well, leading to an
>inefficient WH. Also a gas HWH has a pretty powerful burner, mine's
>rated at 40,000 BTU/hour input.

No, no. You don't want any thermal conduction through the plastic
liner. The whole idea is to keep the heat inside the tank, not
radiate or conduct it to the outside. That's why there's a mess of
fiberglass insulation between the steel water tank and the outside
cosmetic steel cover. Some people add an additional water heater
insulating "jacket" on the outside of the heater. A thermal
insulating plastic layer between the water and the steel tank should
improve efficiency.

An easy way to tell if your water heater is a piece of junk is to
measure the case temperature of the water heater. Use a contact
thermometer (Thermocouple or thermistor, not optical IR). It's
probably the worst at the top of the heater. If the outer case is
warmer than the ambient air, you're wasting energy heating that
atmosphere instead of the water. Same with a refrigerator. If the
case of the fridge is colder than ambient, you're cooling the kitchen.

>I suspect you suspicions about the
>plastic buckling/warping and separating from the steel tank are
>correct.

That was just a guess. I'm not so sure any more. The plastic liner
and steel tank are both fairly flexible, so they can bend and bulge
without breaking anything. You'll never see it because it all happens
inside the tank. If they're glued together (bonded) properly, I don't
think they will come apart. I was wondering why the water tank didn't
have stiffening ribs, which would allow the use of thinner steel. I
guess(tm) stiffening might interfere with the necessary flexing of the
tank with temperature.

It should also be possible to dope the alumina ceramic coating with
something to help it match the coefficient of thermal expansion for
the steel. Even so, stratification, and the difference between
temperatures on both sides of the steel tank, will create enough of a
temperature gradient to possibly microcrack the ceramic.

Incidentally, it doesn't take much movement to wreck a ceramic
coating. I had a nice ceramic coated steel tea kettle that I usually
heat on the kitchen stove top to about 180C. One day, I stupidly put
it directly on top of my wood burner running at about 300C. I
compounded the error by boiling off all the water. My first
indication of a problem was the sound of something like popcorn from
inside the kettle. That was the inside coating flaking off and
bouncing around. As I approached, a large piece of the outside
coating flew off in my general direction. I had to use a broomstick
to remove the kettle. I haven't calculated the differences in
expansion, but for something as small as a kettle, it was much smaller
than my predicted 1mm.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/18/2014 12:24 PM, Ian Malcolm wrote:
> Charlie+ <cha...@xxx.net> wrote in

>>> I also installed a permanent drain line, so that the calcium carbonate
>>> will not accumulate again.
>> snip
>>
>> What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
>> magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these
>> type of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this
>> type.. ! Informative post tho! C+
>
> Over in the UK they tend to be copper or stainless and maintenance free
> lifespans of 40+ years are not unusual. e.g. Albion brand stainless hot
> water cylinders dont use any anodes and have a 25 year anti-corrosion
> warrenty on the tank. The immersion heater element circuit should be RCD
> protected, both for safety and so that any insulation failure will be
> detected before significant electrolytic corrosion can occur.
>
> Whoever first introduced vitreous enamel-lined mild steel hot water tanks
> to the American market did you all a great disservice.
>

Subject line change, no charge.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/18/2014 4:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Incidentally, it doesn't take much movement to wreck a ceramic
> coating. I had a nice ceramic coated steel tea kettle that I usually
> heat on the kitchen stove top to about 180C. One day, I stupidly put
> it directly on top of my wood burner running at about 300C. I
> compounded the error by boiling off all the water. My first
> indication of a problem was the sound of something like popcorn from
> inside the kettle. That was the inside coating flaking off and
> bouncing around. As I approached, a large piece of the outside
> coating flew off in my general direction. I had to use a broomstick
> to remove the kettle. I haven't calculated the differences in
> expansion, but for something as small as a kettle, it was much smaller
> than my predicted 1mm.
>
>

The ones we have at church are just fine. I don't
know the make and model. But, yes, they can.

[Michael A. Terrell]

micky wrote:
>
> I think Kenmore is AOSmith because the intake and output pipes are
> exactly the same distance apart as the wh that came with the house (when
> no other brand I looked at had that. I'm compulsive. I didn't want to
> use flexible and I didn't want zig-zag piping. ) And the front panels
> were the same (although maybe they all use the same thermostats and
> heaters.) Basically everything looks the same as the original.

The Sears model number will tell you who made it.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 17:55:41 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> The Sears model number will tell you who made it.

There are numerous Sears manufacturers lists available online. Many
have missing prefix numbers or only include specific classifications,
such as power tools. If you can't find your model number prefix, just
try a different list:
<http://home.cogeco.ca/~gbishop/Public/SearsSourceCodes.htm>
<http://vintagemachinery.org/craftsman/manufacturers.aspx?sort=1>
<http://www.asecc.com/data/sears.html>

On some serial numbers, you can extract the date of manufacture:
<http://www.electrical-forensics.com/MajorAppliances/ApplianceManufacturers.html>

<http://www.electrical-forensics.com>
Incidentally, the above web site has some rather interesting photos of
appliance related fires. For example, hot water heaters do NOT start
fires:
<http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Hotwater/HotWaterHeaters.html>
and portable electric heater misuse hazards:
<http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Heaters/ElectricHeaters.html>

[micky]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:23:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 17:55:41 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
><mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> The Sears model number will tell you who made it.
>
>There are numerous Sears manufacturers lists available online. Many
>have missing prefix numbers or only include specific classifications,
>such as power tools. If you can't find your model number prefix, just
>try a different list:
><http://home.cogeco.ca/~gbishop/Public/SearsSourceCodes.htm>
><http://vintagemachinery.org/craftsman/manufacturers.aspx?sort=1>
><http://www.asecc.com/data/sears.html>

Well I went to all three pages, and searching on smith, none listed
a.o.smith at all.

But I remember the clincher reason I thought that's what it was. The
first owner of the house left me the owners manual for the original
water heater, by aosmith, and the manual was amost identical to the one
that came with both of my Sears water heaters. Same text, same fonts,
same graphics

>On some serial numbers, you can extract the date of manufacture:
><http://www.electrical-forensics.com/MajorAppliances/ApplianceManufacturers.html>
>
><http://www.electrical-forensics.com>
>Incidentally, the above web site has some rather interesting photos of
>appliance related fires. For example, hot water heaters do NOT start
>fires:
><http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Hotwater/HotWaterHeaters.html>
>and portable electric heater misuse hazards:
><http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Heaters/ElectricHeaters.html>

I'll check these out.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 23:26:37 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>

wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:23:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>><http://home.cogeco.ca/~gbishop/Public/SearsSourceCodes.htm>
>><http://vintagemachinery.org/craftsman/manufacturers.aspx?sort=1>
>><http://www.asecc.com/data/sears.html>

>Well I went to all three pages, and searching on smith, none listed
>a.o.smith at all.

Yeah, I noticed that. However, it seems that Sears/Kenmore does sell
AO Smith water heaters. Here's replacement parts for one AO Smith
model from the Sears web site:
<http://parts.sears.com/partsdirect/part-model/Aosmith-Parts/Water-heater-Parts/Model-ESM30/0002/1081000/50032737/00001>
and Sears repair service for AO Smith products:
<http://www.searshomeservices.com/aosmith-water-heater-repair>
A clue might be that the Sears parts page shows the water heater by
the AO Smith model number (ESM30) and not by the Sears style part
number. The web page shows parts for 205 assorted AO Smith water
heaters:
<http://parts.sears.com/partsdirect/getProductType.pd?parentCategory=Plumbing&productType=Water-heater-Parts&sort=modelNumber&dir=asc&selectedBrand=Aosmith&page=1>
none of which show a Sears style part number.

>But I remember the clincher reason I thought that's what it was. The
>first owner of the house left me the owners manual for the original
>water heater, by aosmith, and the manual was amost identical to the one
>that came with both of my Sears water heaters. Same text, same fonts,
>same graphics

AO Smith also posts some of their instruction manuals:
<http://www.aosmithinternational.com/content/instruction-manuals>

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/18/2014 11:26 PM, micky wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:23:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

>> On some serial numbers, you can extract the date of manufacture:
>> <http://www.electrical-forensics.com/MajorAppliances/ApplianceManufacturers.html>
>>
>> <http://www.electrical-forensics.com>
>> Incidentally, the above web site has some rather interesting photos of
>> appliance related fires. For example, hot water heaters do NOT start
>> fires:
>> <http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Hotwater/HotWaterHeaters.html>
>> and portable electric heater misuse hazards:
>> <http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Heaters/ElectricHeaters.html>
>
> I'll check these out.
>

The ones that are good enough to be as bright,
can be twenty or thirty bucks per bulb. But,
if it means not having to go 24 feet up, might
be worth it.

[micky]

It was the HOA's idea to put this light on my house, for secuirty
reasons, because I live right next to the path that goes into the woods.
(It used by JHS boys going in one direction, and HS boys going in the
other, to their respective schools, but 2 years ago a big tree fell down
blocking the path, with no good way to go around it, and now only one or
two kids use it. ).

The HOA people were looking at the house in the next building too, but I
wanted it here, so I could turn it off when I wanted too (not that I
ever have.) And they pay me $10 per quarter for the electricity I
use. It's been 20 years. I think they still do that. And the first
time the bulbs burnt out, I called the HOA and they sent a whole
electrician, with a ladder. Think how much that must have cost, just to
change a lightbulb. And I think I called once more when the fixture
itself had problems, but after that I couldn't bring myself to call
them. Now I'm going to look at it that the 10 dollars a quarter is
much more than the electricity costs, but it will eventually pay for the
fixture. 2 1/4years I guess. And the work I put in. Another year.
And then it can start paying for the time they towed my car away for no
good reason, and the time they threatened to.

[Jerry Peters]

In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 20:13:17 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
> <je...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>>ALso plastic doesn't conduct heat all that well, leading to an
>>inefficient WH. Also a gas HWH has a pretty powerful burner, mine's
>>rated at 40,000 BTU/hour input.
>
> No, no. You don't want any thermal conduction through the plastic
> liner. The whole idea is to keep the heat inside the tank, not
> radiate or conduct it to the outside. That's why there's a mess of
> fiberglass insulation between the steel water tank and the outside
> cosmetic steel cover. Some people add an additional water heater
> insulating "jacket" on the outside of the heater. A thermal
> insulating plastic layer between the water and the steel tank should
> improve efficiency.

I was discussing a *gas* HWH, where you do want the heat from the
burner to be conducted through the tank to the water.

>
> An easy way to tell if your water heater is a piece of junk is to
> measure the case temperature of the water heater. Use a contact
> thermometer (Thermocouple or thermistor, not optical IR). It's
> probably the worst at the top of the heater. If the outer case is
> warmer than the ambient air, you're wasting energy heating that
> atmosphere instead of the water. Same with a refrigerator. If the
> case of the fridge is colder than ambient, you're cooling the kitchen.
>
>>I suspect you suspicions about the
>>plastic buckling/warping and separating from the steel tank are
>>correct.
>
> That was just a guess. I'm not so sure any more. The plastic liner
> and steel tank are both fairly flexible, so they can bend and bulge
> without breaking anything. You'll never see it because it all happens
> inside the tank. If they're glued together (bonded) properly, I don't
> think they will come apart. I was wondering why the water tank didn't
> have stiffening ribs, which would allow the use of thinner steel. I
> guess(tm) stiffening might interfere with the necessary flexing of the
> tank with temperature.

I was thinking of the hot spots you could get with a gas HWH if the
plastic isn't in complete contact with the tank.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/19/2014 12:57 PM, micky wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 07:31:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon
> <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The ones that are good enough to be as bright,
>> can be twenty or thirty bucks per bulb. But,
>> if it means not having to go 24 feet up, might
>> be worth it.
>
> It was the HOA's idea to put this light on my house, for secuirty
> reasons, because I live right next to the path that goes into the woods.
> (It used by JHS boys going in one direction, and HS boys going in the
> other, to their respective schools, but 2 years ago a big tree fell down
> blocking the path, with no good way to go around it, and now only one or
> two kids use it. ).
>

Center posted, like yours.
Someone should fine the HOA for the uncleared
tree. Yes, I've heard about HOA and towing
cars, seems to be a major passion of theirs.
I don't remember the details, but I do know
some folks who were visiting out of town. The
folks said fine to park in front of the house
while you stay over night. Car missing in Am,
$130 plus tow bill.

> The HOA people were looking at the house in the next building too, but I
> wanted it here, so I could turn it off when I wanted too (not that I
> ever have.) And they pay me $10 per quarter for the electricity I
> use. It's been 20 years. I think they still do that. And the first
> time the bulbs burnt out, I called the HOA and they sent a whole
> electrician, with a ladder. Think how much that must have cost, just to
> change a lightbulb. And I think I called once more when the fixture
> itself had problems, but after that I couldn't bring myself to call
> them. Now I'm going to look at it that the 10 dollars a quarter is
> much more than the electricity costs, but it will eventually pay for the
> fixture. 2 1/4years I guess. And the work I put in. Another year.
> And then it can start paying for the time they towed my car away for no
> good reason, and the time they threatened to.
>> -
>> .
>> Christopher A. Young
>> Learn about Jesus
>> www.lds.org
>> .
>

--

[josephkk]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 13:56:45 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>

>An easy way to tell if your water heater is a piece of junk is to
>measure the case temperature of the water heater. Use a contact
>thermometer (Thermocouple or thermistor, not optical IR). It's
>probably the worst at the top of the heater. If the outer case is
>warmer than the ambient air, you're wasting energy heating that
>atmosphere instead of the water. Same with a refrigerator. If the
>case of the fridge is colder than ambient, you're cooling the kitchen.

No. Refrigerators always heat the kitchen, they have condensers as well
and ALL the heat removed from the interior and the operating losses are
added to the room heat.

?-)

[micky]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 17:35:42 -0400, Stormin Mormon

<cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/19/2014 12:57 PM, micky wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 07:31:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon
>> <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The ones that are good enough to be as bright,
>>> can be twenty or thirty bucks per bulb. But,
>>> if it means not having to go 24 feet up, might
>>> be worth it.
>>
>> It was the HOA's idea to put this light on my house, for secuirty
>> reasons, because I live right next to the path that goes into the woods.
>> (It used by JHS boys going in one direction, and HS boys going in the
>> other, to their respective schools, but 2 years ago a big tree fell down
>> blocking the path, with no good way to go around it, and now only one or
>> two kids use it. ).
>>
>Center posted, like yours.
>Someone should fine the HOA for the uncleared
>tree.

LOL. I hope not. I liked the kids and didn't mind them walking by,
but I'm happy the tree blocks their path. One or two of them would
ride their bikes on the grass, at least one of them even when the ground
was wet. One rider did about 10 times as much damage as one walker, and
one rider when it was wet did about 100 or 1000 times as much damage.

Anyhow, the land beyond mine is owned by Warren Buffett. I just learned
this a while back when the developer-apparent of a small old farm nearby
talked about who he dealt with concerining drainage from his property to
the stream. Well, he didnt deal with Buffet but with someone from his
company, maybe MidAmerican Energy Holdings Company's HomeServices of
America.

> Yes, I've heard about HOA and towing
>cars, seems to be a major passion of theirs.

Oh, yeah. They'd tow away your house, if they could.

>I don't remember the details, but I do know
>some folks who were visiting out of town. The
>folks said fine to park in front of the house
>while you stay over night. Car missing in Am,
>$130 plus tow bill.

Darn.

[Jeff Liebermann]

I wasn't suggesting that you measure the temperature of the back of
the refrigerator. Just the case temperatures, which means the sides,
front, and possibly the top. The coils in back will certainly heat up
the wall and the back of the case, but I don't think it's huge because
the room and room air make a rather large heat sink.

It's easy enough to estimate how much heat the fridge delivers to the
room. A fancy new energy efficient 18 cubic foot fridge uses about
500 kw-hr/year or an average of:
500 kw-hr/year * 1yr/365days = 1.4 kw-hr/day
Over 24 hrs, that's the equivalent of:
1400 watt-hrs/day / 24 hrs/day = 57 watts
That's about the same heat that would be delivered by a 60 watt light
bulb running all day in the same room. Like I mumbled... not much
heat. Older fridges are not that efficient, but even 3 to 5 times as
much heat would not make much of a difference in room temperature.

I just checked my bar size fridge with a thermocouple thermometer. The
front door is the same as ambient at 17C while the top and sides are
about 20C. So, for a decent fridge, you're correct and the sides are
warmer. However, I've seen refrigerators that were sweating condensed
water and felt seriously cold on the sides and door. Sears took it
back and replaced it with one that had more insulation, which worked
as expected. Since then, I've seen a few others that were cold to the
touch.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/20/2014 12:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> I wasn't suggesting that you measure the temperature of the back of
> the refrigerator. Just the case temperatures, which means the sides,
> front, and possibly the top. The coils in back will certainly heat up
> the wall and the back of the case, but I don't think it's huge because
> the room and room air make a rather large heat sink.
>
> It's easy enough to estimate how much heat the fridge delivers to the
> room. A fancy new energy efficient 18 cubic foot fridge uses about
> 500 kw-hr/year or an average of:
> 500 kw-hr/year * 1yr/365days = 1.4 kw-hr/day
> Over 24 hrs, that's the equivalent of:
> 1400 watt-hrs/day / 24 hrs/day = 57 watts
> That's about the same heat that would be delivered by a 60 watt light
> bulb running all day in the same room. Like I mumbled... not much
> heat. Older fridges are not that efficient, but even 3 to 5 times as
> much heat would not make much of a difference in room temperature.
>
> I just checked my bar size fridge with a thermocouple thermometer. The
> front door is the same as ambient at 17C while the top and sides are
> about 20C. So, for a decent fridge, you're correct and the sides are
> warmer. However, I've seen refrigerators that were sweating condensed
> water and felt seriously cold on the sides and door. Sears took it
> back and replaced it with one that had more insulation, which worked
> as expected. Since then, I've seen a few others that were cold to the
> touch.
>
>

Eventually, the guys at church will use a couple more
of the flood lights that are as bright as a "real"
one. I'll try and take home one of the boxes. Will
let you know what brand and model and so on.

[Mr. Man-wai Chang]

On 13/10/14 3:53 AM, Bob F wrote:
> micky wrote:
>> Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?
>
> The city street lights on my block are now LEDs, and they are plenty bright.

Came across an interesting article:

Your eco-friendly LED lights are drawing an awful lot more moths
http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/17/led-lights-drawing-more-insects/?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter

--
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[vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com]

Eventually they should be. Right now they waste energy (produces heat but
not enough light) with transforming. I understand they will be doing pure
transistor voltage clipping which should be a heck of a lot more efficient
and produce fewer heat issues. This from asking dumb questions at trade shows
and fully understanding the folks at the booths might not really know. I have
a few 200W incandescents at home and haven't quite been able to replace
them. Then again I'm just a Chem Engr who took two oblig EE courses and grew
up with two vaccuum-tube-educated (photoypesetting and avionics) EE uncles.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

[Ian Jackson]

In message <0sd0w.416186$412.1...@fx30.iad>, Scott Lurndal
<sc...@slp53.sl.home> writes

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>>On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>>wrote:
> Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
>>would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.
>>
>
>Have you never boiled water in a styrofoam cup over an open flame?
>

>One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
>melting point.

A rather late follow-up.....

When I was very young, my uncle had a book that showed you how to make
things out of folded paper, One was 'working' kettle, and I remember
pestering my mother to help me make it up, then to boil some water in it
over a candle flame.
--
Ian