info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Advice requested Whirlpool Duet Sport Washing Machine "popped"
333 views
Skip to first unread message
Danny DiAmico
Apr 24, 2016, 9:38:02 PM4/24/16
to
Hi Guys,
Any washing machine experienced folks here?
Wife pressed the "Power" button on the Costco Whirlpool Duet Sport washing
machine and then, when she pressed the separate "Start" button, something
popped. She said it sounded like a sharp crack, like a "bottle breaking".
It has power (although I cycled the home circuit breakers anyway), but it
won't do anything now when the "Start" button is pressed (nor when the
"Cancel" button is pressed). All the lights on the front light up normally
(it seems).
So, it will power up, but it won't do anything (e.g., no water turns on
and no spinning occurs - in fact, there are no sounds whatsoever from
inside). It won't even turn off with the "Cancel" button (although it will
turn off when I unplug it and then plug it back in).
It was bought in 2008 and it gets used about once a week or so (a bit more
now that we have my sister and her kids living with us).
Any suggestions?
Any washing machine experienced folks here?
Wife pressed the "Power" button on the Costco Whirlpool Duet Sport washing
machine and then, when she pressed the separate "Start" button, something
popped. She said it sounded like a sharp crack, like a "bottle breaking".
It has power (although I cycled the home circuit breakers anyway), but it
won't do anything now when the "Start" button is pressed (nor when the
"Cancel" button is pressed). All the lights on the front light up normally
(it seems).
So, it will power up, but it won't do anything (e.g., no water turns on
and no spinning occurs - in fact, there are no sounds whatsoever from
inside). It won't even turn off with the "Cancel" button (although it will
turn off when I unplug it and then plug it back in).
It was bought in 2008 and it gets used about once a week or so (a bit more
now that we have my sister and her kids living with us).
Any suggestions?
Rheilly Phoull
Apr 25, 2016, 4:30:44 AM4/25/16
to
http://applianceassistant.com/Washer-Repair/Duet/Duet-Washer-Error-Codes.php
Try that and google first before posting.
pf...@aol.com
Apr 25, 2016, 9:18:42 AM4/25/16
to
Start there, they may save you from all sorts of false starts and red herrings.
I expect that there is some sort of fuse or fusible link inside that popped causing the sound and lack of response. You may find that it devolves to the start capacitor on the motor, or some other similar part that failed causing a load on the link.
Generally, it has been my experience with moving parts that the more extreme the symptom, the simpler the cause. But, start with the toll-free number. They have seen (and heard) it all before.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 11:01:42 AM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 04:49:33 -0700, Uncle Monster wrote:
> Did your wife smell anything burning. All these newfangled
> electronically controlled appliances have components that contain "Magic
> Smoke" which is necessary for the electronics to operate. When the MS
> escapes, the appliance stops working. The age of your appliance could
> mean that an electronic component called an "electrolytic capacitor" has
> failed. Unfortunately, manufacturers often save a few cents on parts by
> purchasing components that just meet the requirements to make the unit
> work. The bane of modern electronic devices is the inexpensive
> electrolytics that manufacturers seem to be fond of using. Anyone who
> works with electronics can spot a failed electrolytic capacitor because
> it has swelled or is leaking. Here's a video of a fellow replacing some
> failed electrolytic capacitors in a TV set. This will give you some idea
> of what to look for on your washer's control board or power supply. ^_^
There was absolutely no smell, although we used to blow up electrolytic
caps (the blue unipolar water tank type) by sticking them in outlets in
physics class and then waiting for some unsuspecting student to turn
the lights on in the Physics lab - and I don't remember any smell at
that time.
Anyway, the wife screamed when it happened, so I was there within a
minute, and I didn't detect any smell myself.
I'm very familiar with the electrolytic caps, and I am hopeful that
I'll see something burnt or blown inside when I open it up.
> Did your wife smell anything burning. All these newfangled
> electronically controlled appliances have components that contain "Magic
> Smoke" which is necessary for the electronics to operate. When the MS
> escapes, the appliance stops working. The age of your appliance could
> mean that an electronic component called an "electrolytic capacitor" has
> failed. Unfortunately, manufacturers often save a few cents on parts by
> purchasing components that just meet the requirements to make the unit
> work. The bane of modern electronic devices is the inexpensive
> electrolytics that manufacturers seem to be fond of using. Anyone who
> works with electronics can spot a failed electrolytic capacitor because
> it has swelled or is leaking. Here's a video of a fellow replacing some
> failed electrolytic capacitors in a TV set. This will give you some idea
> of what to look for on your washer's control board or power supply. ^_^
There was absolutely no smell, although we used to blow up electrolytic
caps (the blue unipolar water tank type) by sticking them in outlets in
physics class and then waiting for some unsuspecting student to turn
the lights on in the Physics lab - and I don't remember any smell at
that time.
Anyway, the wife screamed when it happened, so I was there within a
minute, and I didn't detect any smell myself.
I'm very familiar with the electrolytic caps, and I am hopeful that
I'll see something burnt or blown inside when I open it up.
et...@whidbey.com
Apr 25, 2016, 1:24:53 PM4/25/16
to
interlock has failed. The sound could have been mechanical.
If the door interlock doesn't work properly then it is likely the
switch in the interlock is preventing the washer from working. I had a
similar experience when the door seal failed and squirted water into
the interlock switch.
Eric
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 2:35:16 PM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:33:18 +0800, Rheilly Phoull wrote:
> Google is your friend
>
> http://applianceassistant.com/Washer-Repair/Duet/Duet-Washer-Error-
Whirlpool duet Sport Washer WFW8410SW even though I have the following
manuals as described on this post from more than two years ago on the
same washer (but for a different problem).
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.home.repair/whirlpool$20duet$20danny/alt.home.repair/3Q0hbYtmEJI/tN1jjcJdeugJ
Troubleshooting manuals,
https://www.whirlpool.com/manuals/
(WFW8410SW) Use & Care Guide:
https://www.whirlpool.com/digitalassets/MLPDF/Use%20and%20Care%20Guide%20-%20W10235940.pdf
Parts list:
https://www.whirlpool.com/digitalassets/MLPDF/Repair%20Part%20List%20-%20W10238202.pdf
BTW, all the lights light, but nothing works; even the door is locked
shut (with the clothes still imprisoned inside).
> Google is your friend
>
> http://applianceassistant.com/Washer-Repair/Duet/Duet-Washer-Error-
Codes.php
>
> Try that and google first before posting.
Thanks for the pointer, but I can't get any codes out of the
>
> Try that and google first before posting.
Whirlpool duet Sport Washer WFW8410SW even though I have the following
manuals as described on this post from more than two years ago on the
same washer (but for a different problem).
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.home.repair/whirlpool$20duet$20danny/alt.home.repair/3Q0hbYtmEJI/tN1jjcJdeugJ
Troubleshooting manuals,
https://www.whirlpool.com/manuals/
(WFW8410SW) Use & Care Guide:
https://www.whirlpool.com/digitalassets/MLPDF/Use%20and%20Care%20Guide%20-%20W10235940.pdf
Parts list:
https://www.whirlpool.com/digitalassets/MLPDF/Repair%20Part%20List%20-%20W10238202.pdf
BTW, all the lights light, but nothing works; even the door is locked
shut (with the clothes still imprisoned inside).
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 2:54:01 PM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:28:12 -0700, etpm wrote:
> Can you open the door to the washer? If not it may be the door
> interlock has failed. The sound could have been mechanical.
> If the door interlock doesn't work properly then it is likely the
> switch in the interlock is preventing the washer from working. I had a
> similar experience when the door seal failed and squirted water into
> the interlock switch.
> Eric
You are correct in that the door is locked shut, under all conditions.
> Can you open the door to the washer? If not it may be the door
> interlock has failed. The sound could have been mechanical.
> If the door interlock doesn't work properly then it is likely the
> switch in the interlock is preventing the washer from working. I had a
> similar experience when the door seal failed and squirted water into
> the interlock switch.
> Eric
Whether the washer is plugged in or not, or if the start and cancel
are operated, the door won't open.
There is no water because the wash never started, so, it could
be the door interlock. Right now I'm searching for a model-specific
troubleshooting manual that can give me diagnostic codes.
The model number is WFW8410SW, Whirlpool duet Sport Washing Machine.
My last thread on this washing machine was more than two years ago,
which I found by going to http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair and
typing in the washer model number WFW8410SW.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.home.repair/WFW8410SW|sort:relevance/alt.home.repair/3Q0hbYtmEJI/FsLs2j_8N58J
et...@whidbey.com
Apr 25, 2016, 3:42:19 PM4/25/16
to
Once the interlock is manually disengaged the washer should try to
function normally. If the manual door unlock doesn't work even when
actuated then the mechanical linkage may be broken which is what the
noise may have been. Or it may be that the switch in the interlock has
corroded contacts like mine did from water squirting directly at the
switch from a leaky tub seal. On my washer I carefully took apart the
switch and cleaned the contacts inside. This fixed the washer
operation. I still had to replace the belt, tub pulley, and tub seal.
And my nice maple floor is warped under the washer from that damn seal
leak. GRRR. If it is the interlock and if your washer is anything
like my GE then you are in for some fun. If you enjoy fixing washers.
I was pissed off at GE for the lousy construction. Still am for that
matter.
Eric
Jon Elson
Apr 25, 2016, 3:46:09 PM4/25/16
to
Danny DiAmico wrote:
>
> There is no water because the wash never started, so, it could
> be the door interlock. Right now I'm searching for a model-specific
> troubleshooting manual that can give me diagnostic codes.
There is a place you can slied a screwdriver or table knife to unlock the
>
> There is no water because the wash never started, so, it could
> be the door interlock. Right now I'm searching for a model-specific
> troubleshooting manual that can give me diagnostic codes.
door, if you need to.
The smarts are usually just one small PC board in the "console" at the back
of the washer. Often there are a few angled screws and the while thing
lifts straight up. (OK, looks like yours is a front load, so the
construction is a bit different.)
Most of the newer machines, and I'll bet all of the recent front-loads, use
3-phase motors and VFDs integrated into the controller board. I suspect the
load pop was something in the VFD blowing. You ought to pull the board and
inspect for burst components or traces burned off the board. If you find
any of that, it may be best to just replace the whole board (although it
will be expensive.)
We have one of the super-efficient top loaders, and I've done quite a bit of
maintenance on it.
Jon
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 7:10:45 PM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:02:30 -0400, clare wrote:
> If the latch blew up holding the door closed but the switch was thrown
> to the other side of the washer and thinks the door is open, you would
> have that situation.
I finally got an error code, after fiddling with the buttons.
You press any button, rinse cycle is a good one, for 3 to 4 seconds on
and then off for the same amount of time, for 3 to as many as it takes
times. After a dozen times, I finally saw the error code F28.
F28 appears to be a communications error in the Whirlpool duet sport
WFW8410SW where the Main Control Board (CCU W10679602, $300) isn't
communicating with the Motor Control Board (MCU W10163007 $265) or if
the front or back panel "grounding switches" are open.
Apparently the motor control board (MCU) converts single-phase power
to 3 phases to run the motor; it also slows down the motor by braking
it electrically.
According to this article, the solution might be as simple as rebooting
the computer! http://www.ehow.com/how_8052747_fix-f28-code-whirlpool-duet.html
> If the latch blew up holding the door closed but the switch was thrown
> to the other side of the washer and thinks the door is open, you would
> have that situation.
I finally got an error code, after fiddling with the buttons.
You press any button, rinse cycle is a good one, for 3 to 4 seconds on
and then off for the same amount of time, for 3 to as many as it takes
times. After a dozen times, I finally saw the error code F28.
F28 appears to be a communications error in the Whirlpool duet sport
WFW8410SW where the Main Control Board (CCU W10679602, $300) isn't
communicating with the Motor Control Board (MCU W10163007 $265) or if
the front or back panel "grounding switches" are open.
Apparently the motor control board (MCU) converts single-phase power
to 3 phases to run the motor; it also slows down the motor by braking
it electrically.
According to this article, the solution might be as simple as rebooting
the computer! http://www.ehow.com/how_8052747_fix-f28-code-whirlpool-duet.html
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 10:16:10 PM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 14:15:03 -0700, Oren wrote:
> A one inch wide flexible putty knife might git under and it a git it
> done. Don't use Mon's butter knives for screwdrivers. You have been
> warned.
Hi Oren,
Opening the door turned out to be easy.
In the WFW8410SW, Whirlpool duet Sport Washing Machine, there is a
special pull tab for opening the door.
Here is a picture of it in my washing machine:
http://c74i.imgup.net/pulltab19b0a.gif
> A one inch wide flexible putty knife might git under and it a git it
> done. Don't use Mon's butter knives for screwdrivers. You have been
> warned.
Hi Oren,
Opening the door turned out to be easy.
In the WFW8410SW, Whirlpool duet Sport Washing Machine, there is a
special pull tab for opening the door.
Here is a picture of it in my washing machine:
http://c74i.imgup.net/pulltab19b0a.gif
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 11:26:22 PM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:28:49 -0700, Uncle Monster wrote:
> It appears that an engineer was thinking the day that was added.
> I wonder how hard he/she/it had to argue with the bean counters to
> justify the extra cost? ^_^
Yeah. It was nice the door opened so easily with that pull tab
made expressly for that purpose.
http://c74i.imgup.net/pulltab19b0a.gif
All I needed to do was remove the lower panel, which contained
this instruction manual, hidden inside:
http://v62i.imgup.net/instruccti9bd5.gif
Then, there was this drain plug:
http://t23i.imgup.net/drain27a1.gif
Which, when loosened, leaked very little water (1/4 inch or so):
http://t41i.imgup.net/leak5a84.gif
Unfortunately, the drain plug broke in half when I twisted it out:
http://b28i.imgup.net/broken_plu6163.gif
So I will have to deal with that problem later.
> It appears that an engineer was thinking the day that was added.
> I wonder how hard he/she/it had to argue with the bean counters to
> justify the extra cost? ^_^
Yeah. It was nice the door opened so easily with that pull tab
made expressly for that purpose.
http://c74i.imgup.net/pulltab19b0a.gif
All I needed to do was remove the lower panel, which contained
this instruction manual, hidden inside:
http://v62i.imgup.net/instruccti9bd5.gif
Then, there was this drain plug:
http://t23i.imgup.net/drain27a1.gif
Which, when loosened, leaked very little water (1/4 inch or so):
http://t41i.imgup.net/leak5a84.gif
Unfortunately, the drain plug broke in half when I twisted it out:
http://b28i.imgup.net/broken_plu6163.gif
So I will have to deal with that problem later.
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 11:40:36 PM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:04:50 -0400, clare wrote:
> Except when I posted the OP had not been able to find any error codes.
That was my mistake to not have the F28 error code earlier, and I'm sorry
I didn't have that information for you when I last posted. The instructions
given were for a *newer* model washer, so I had to wait until I found
the instructions hidden inside my washer to generate that F28 code.
http://v62i.imgup.net/instruccti9bd5.gif
That one error code for the Whirlpool duet sport WFW8410SW washer
was F28, which is a communication error between the computer board
(CCU) and the motor control board (MCU) and perhaps the lower and
back panel grounding switches.
http://g31i.imgup.net/f28d702.gif
The ground straps seem to have good contact, so, I think it's
the MMU or the CCU but I don't know yet what to do next.
http://u33i.imgup.net/groundstraebd1.gif
I wiggled all the wires of the CCU, to no avail:
http://h65i.imgup.net/ccub218.gif
And I wiggled all the wires around the surprisingly small motor
noting that the belt seemed to be intact and in good shape:
http://a26i.imgup.net/motor8386.gif
> Except when I posted the OP had not been able to find any error codes.
That was my mistake to not have the F28 error code earlier, and I'm sorry
I didn't have that information for you when I last posted. The instructions
given were for a *newer* model washer, so I had to wait until I found
the instructions hidden inside my washer to generate that F28 code.
http://v62i.imgup.net/instruccti9bd5.gif
That one error code for the Whirlpool duet sport WFW8410SW washer
was F28, which is a communication error between the computer board
(CCU) and the motor control board (MCU) and perhaps the lower and
back panel grounding switches.
http://g31i.imgup.net/f28d702.gif
The ground straps seem to have good contact, so, I think it's
the MMU or the CCU but I don't know yet what to do next.
http://u33i.imgup.net/groundstraebd1.gif
I wiggled all the wires of the CCU, to no avail:
http://h65i.imgup.net/ccub218.gif
And I wiggled all the wires around the surprisingly small motor
noting that the belt seemed to be intact and in good shape:
http://a26i.imgup.net/motor8386.gif
Danny DiAmico
Apr 25, 2016, 11:51:59 PM4/25/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:38:21 -0700, Don Y wrote:
> Note the POSSIBLE error codes (page 6-2 onward).
>
> "FAILURE/ERROR DISPLAY CODES Communication of failure codes will
> be displayed on the washer console by all cycle lights flashing
> and standing status lights."
I found the manual for the WFW8410SW hidden inside the lower panel:
http://v62i.imgup.net/instruccti9bd5.gif
You are indeed correct that the F28 error I have is a "communications
error", most likely between the main computer and the motor controller
(which converts single-phase AC voltage to three phase).
Right now I'm just trying to identify the parts I see so that I
can piece together how the darn thing works - so that I can then
piece together how to test what's not working.
For example, these are clearly the hot and cold water valves:
http://k55i.imgup.net/watervalve2761.gif
This round thing is in the back right top corner, near where the electrical
power comes into the washer, but I don't know what it is yet (maybe a vacuum
valve of some sort?):
http://w48i.imgup.net/roundthingd36d.gif
But this is a black object where the power comes into the washer
that I don't know what it does and where the wife said the sound
seemed to have come from.
http://y70i.imgup.net/black_powee64f.gif
It doesn't seem burnt though but what is it?
> Note the POSSIBLE error codes (page 6-2 onward).
>
> "FAILURE/ERROR DISPLAY CODES Communication of failure codes will
> be displayed on the washer console by all cycle lights flashing
> and standing status lights."
I found the manual for the WFW8410SW hidden inside the lower panel:
http://v62i.imgup.net/instruccti9bd5.gif
You are indeed correct that the F28 error I have is a "communications
error", most likely between the main computer and the motor controller
(which converts single-phase AC voltage to three phase).
Right now I'm just trying to identify the parts I see so that I
can piece together how the darn thing works - so that I can then
piece together how to test what's not working.
For example, these are clearly the hot and cold water valves:
http://k55i.imgup.net/watervalve2761.gif
This round thing is in the back right top corner, near where the electrical
power comes into the washer, but I don't know what it is yet (maybe a vacuum
valve of some sort?):
http://w48i.imgup.net/roundthingd36d.gif
But this is a black object where the power comes into the washer
that I don't know what it does and where the wife said the sound
seemed to have come from.
http://y70i.imgup.net/black_powee64f.gif
It doesn't seem burnt though but what is it?
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:06:10 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:07:35 -0400, clare wrote:
> I wouldn't buy the duet anyways - there were too many reported
> problems with the model when we bought our new washer/drier pair about
> 5 years ago.
Besides the drain cap breaking in half when I removed it today (leaving
the important half stuck solid inside the drain tube):
http://b28i.imgup.net/broken_plu6163.gif
I noticed why the detergent dispenser hasn't been working for the past
two years!
http://p82i.imgup.net/dispenser5571.gif
The dispenser arm had completely come off its pivot point!
http://u13i.imgup.net/diispenser3376.gif
That's not the problem, but, it does show a bad design for the
arm. I don't know how it goes back but it looks pretty easy to
put together (after I clean it up with some vinegar later).
Here's how I "think" it goes back together, but I'm not gonna
worry about it right now as that is not the problem I'm trying
to solve at the moment:
http://s48i.imgup.net/armputback931f.gif
BTW, does anyone know if there is anything holding the lever to
the pivot point? Is it just a press fit? No bolt?
> I wouldn't buy the duet anyways - there were too many reported
> problems with the model when we bought our new washer/drier pair about
> 5 years ago.
Besides the drain cap breaking in half when I removed it today (leaving
the important half stuck solid inside the drain tube):
http://b28i.imgup.net/broken_plu6163.gif
I noticed why the detergent dispenser hasn't been working for the past
two years!
http://p82i.imgup.net/dispenser5571.gif
The dispenser arm had completely come off its pivot point!
http://u13i.imgup.net/diispenser3376.gif
That's not the problem, but, it does show a bad design for the
arm. I don't know how it goes back but it looks pretty easy to
put together (after I clean it up with some vinegar later).
Here's how I "think" it goes back together, but I'm not gonna
worry about it right now as that is not the problem I'm trying
to solve at the moment:
http://s48i.imgup.net/armputback931f.gif
BTW, does anyone know if there is anything holding the lever to
the pivot point? Is it just a press fit? No bolt?
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:09:34 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 23:10:42 +0000, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> According to this article, the solution might be as simple as rebooting
> the computer! http://www.ehow.com/how_8052747_fix-f28-code-whirlpool-duet.html
That was just wishful thinking.
> According to this article, the solution might be as simple as rebooting
> the computer! http://www.ehow.com/how_8052747_fix-f28-code-whirlpool-duet.html
So was hoping there was something wrong with the power supply:
http://r65i.imgup.net/120vb16b.gif
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:23:02 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:52:14 -0700, Don Y wrote:
> Did you run all of the other "tests" to see which pass and
> which fail? And, what they have in common?
I have the diagnostic manual that was hidden under the bottom cover
but NONE of the subsequent tests do a thing after I get the F28
communications error.
http://d04i.imgup.net/diagnostic43d3.gif
> The motor control board no doubt has a high voltage rectifier (to convert
> the 120VAC from your mains to ~160VDC) and "switching logic" (FETs)
> to control the application of that power to the windings of the
> motor -- in a controlled fashion (a "variable frequency drive").
Maybe this black object where the power comes in is the rectifier?
http://y70i.imgup.net/black_powee64f.gif
The box doesn't look burnt, but the wife said the popping sound came from
that right top back corner - so it may have blown without showing
any ill effects on the outside.
> Gain access to the drive motor. Unplug the wiring harness from that
> motor. Check for continuity between each pair of pins. You're
> not just looking for "continuity" but are actually trying to quantify
> the resistance between each pair of pins AND THE MOTOR CASE.
> You'll expect to see a low reading (5-10 ohms). If you see anything
> higher, a winding is "open". Anything lower (esp '0'!) is a short.
I can see the motor, but I might need to remove the back in order to
better access the motor. The manual that I found inside does give me
ohms to look for in the wiring continuity:
http://a26i.imgup.net/motor8386.gif
> Point of this is to decide if you ALSO need a new motor (chances are,
> you DO need a new motor controller).
My task now is to identify all the objects I can see inside, and
then to figure out what they fundamentally do and then to figure out
how to test them.
> You can then remove the motor controller and give it a once-over
> for cosmetic damage. It may be sensational -- or, may be difficult
> to notice. Compare similar components to each other, carefully
> (there are probably 3 or 4 identical circuits driving the motor
> and a "chip"/computer driving those circuits.
The motor controller is hard to snap a photo of because it's down
low and deep in back so I may need to remove the back panel to
access its wires.
http://l00i.imgup.net/motorcontr3723.gif
> It's possible that you just have a bad connection in one of the
> cables (water can be very corrosive; things can vibrate loose, etc.)
> but SOMETHING gave up the ghost.
I wiggled all the connections, but nothing changed.
Here's the CCU controller near the top front right corner:
http://h65i.imgup.net/ccub218.gif
I think the most likely thing is that the "black box" in the top
left back right corner blew internally - but I need to figure out
what it is before I can even think of testing it.
http://y70i.imgup.net/black_powee64f.gif
> Did you run all of the other "tests" to see which pass and
> which fail? And, what they have in common?
I have the diagnostic manual that was hidden under the bottom cover
but NONE of the subsequent tests do a thing after I get the F28
communications error.
http://d04i.imgup.net/diagnostic43d3.gif
> The motor control board no doubt has a high voltage rectifier (to convert
> the 120VAC from your mains to ~160VDC) and "switching logic" (FETs)
> to control the application of that power to the windings of the
> motor -- in a controlled fashion (a "variable frequency drive").
Maybe this black object where the power comes in is the rectifier?
http://y70i.imgup.net/black_powee64f.gif
The box doesn't look burnt, but the wife said the popping sound came from
that right top back corner - so it may have blown without showing
any ill effects on the outside.
> Gain access to the drive motor. Unplug the wiring harness from that
> motor. Check for continuity between each pair of pins. You're
> not just looking for "continuity" but are actually trying to quantify
> the resistance between each pair of pins AND THE MOTOR CASE.
> You'll expect to see a low reading (5-10 ohms). If you see anything
> higher, a winding is "open". Anything lower (esp '0'!) is a short.
I can see the motor, but I might need to remove the back in order to
better access the motor. The manual that I found inside does give me
ohms to look for in the wiring continuity:
http://a26i.imgup.net/motor8386.gif
> Point of this is to decide if you ALSO need a new motor (chances are,
> you DO need a new motor controller).
My task now is to identify all the objects I can see inside, and
then to figure out what they fundamentally do and then to figure out
how to test them.
> You can then remove the motor controller and give it a once-over
> for cosmetic damage. It may be sensational -- or, may be difficult
> to notice. Compare similar components to each other, carefully
> (there are probably 3 or 4 identical circuits driving the motor
> and a "chip"/computer driving those circuits.
The motor controller is hard to snap a photo of because it's down
low and deep in back so I may need to remove the back panel to
access its wires.
http://l00i.imgup.net/motorcontr3723.gif
> It's possible that you just have a bad connection in one of the
> cables (water can be very corrosive; things can vibrate loose, etc.)
> but SOMETHING gave up the ghost.
I wiggled all the connections, but nothing changed.
Here's the CCU controller near the top front right corner:
http://h65i.imgup.net/ccub218.gif
I think the most likely thing is that the "black box" in the top
left back right corner blew internally - but I need to figure out
what it is before I can even think of testing it.
http://y70i.imgup.net/black_powee64f.gif
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:26:10 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:14:52 -0700, Don Y wrote:
> - select a button
> - press (and hold) it for 4 seconds
> - release for 4 seconds
> - press (and hold) it for 4 seconds
> - release for 4 seconds
> - press (and hold) it for 4 seconds
That did the trick.
F28.
Communications Error.
No other errors.
http://g31i.imgup.net/f28d702.gif
> - select a button
> - press (and hold) it for 4 seconds
> - release for 4 seconds
> - press (and hold) it for 4 seconds
> - release for 4 seconds
> - press (and hold) it for 4 seconds
That did the trick.
F28.
Communications Error.
No other errors.
http://g31i.imgup.net/f28d702.gif
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:26:30 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:05:49 -0400, hubops wrote:
> From what I have read so far - this is where I'd start.
> Try pressing the door in and out ; maybe jiggle up & down slightly -
> to see if anything happens -
> .. with power on - to generate an error code ?
> Pop the lid & examine the door lock mechanism -
> carefully - in case the spring is waiting to bite you ..
Door lock appears to be working perfectly.
http://w25i.imgup.net/doorlockc3d4.gif
> From what I have read so far - this is where I'd start.
> Try pressing the door in and out ; maybe jiggle up & down slightly -
> to see if anything happens -
> .. with power on - to generate an error code ?
> Pop the lid & examine the door lock mechanism -
> carefully - in case the spring is waiting to bite you ..
Door lock appears to be working perfectly.
http://w25i.imgup.net/doorlockc3d4.gif
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:28:19 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:54:30 -0700, Oren wrote:
> Guest are like trash -- take it out every three (3) days ...
>
> Seriously. Have you mentioned to the kids about the rattlesnakes,
> yet?
Ah, you remember that rattler, you do.
I wish I had a picture of her.
I have found a half dozen since, but now I know EXACTLY what to
look for!
I almost got bit by the pool, bending over to clean out the pool
pumps, but I catch them now and throw them about a mile away
from a five gallon bucket so that they can live, but somewhere
else.
> Guest are like trash -- take it out every three (3) days ...
>
> Seriously. Have you mentioned to the kids about the rattlesnakes,
> yet?
Ah, you remember that rattler, you do.
I wish I had a picture of her.
I have found a half dozen since, but now I know EXACTLY what to
look for!
I almost got bit by the pool, bending over to clean out the pool
pumps, but I catch them now and throw them about a mile away
from a five gallon bucket so that they can live, but somewhere
else.
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:31:36 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:45:36 -0700, Oren wrote:
> I'm talking about the washer control panel. Look behind it for
> evidence of scorched areas. Directly behind the start / cancel button
> pads.
I tried removing that panel, but they must have put the NSA wire tap
there because I can't figure out how to remove that front panel yet.
http://v52i.imgup.net/frontpanel5fd7.gif
What I need to find are disassembly instructions for the Whirlpool
WFW8410SW.
> I'm talking about the washer control panel. Look behind it for
> evidence of scorched areas. Directly behind the start / cancel button
> pads.
I tried removing that panel, but they must have put the NSA wire tap
there because I can't figure out how to remove that front panel yet.
http://v52i.imgup.net/frontpanel5fd7.gif
What I need to find are disassembly instructions for the Whirlpool
WFW8410SW.
Charles Bishop
Apr 26, 2016, 12:53:52 AM4/26/16
to
In article <nflbgj$d2d$1...@news.mixmin.net>,
We had power strips on the work benches that were turned on when you
came in to work in the morning. It would have worked ther.
--
charles
Danny DiAmico <dannyd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 04:49:33 -0700, Uncle Monster wrote:
>
> > Did your wife smell anything burning. All these newfangled
> > electronically controlled appliances have components that contain "Magic
> > Smoke" which is necessary for the electronics to operate. When the MS
> > escapes, the appliance stops working. The age of your appliance could
> > mean that an electronic component called an "electrolytic capacitor" has
> > failed. Unfortunately, manufacturers often save a few cents on parts by
> > purchasing components that just meet the requirements to make the unit
> > work. The bane of modern electronic devices is the inexpensive
> > electrolytics that manufacturers seem to be fond of using. Anyone who
> > works with electronics can spot a failed electrolytic capacitor because
> > it has swelled or is leaking. Here's a video of a fellow replacing some
> > failed electrolytic capacitors in a TV set. This will give you some idea
> > of what to look for on your washer's control board or power supply. ^_^
>
>
> There was absolutely no smell, although we used to blow up electrolytic
> caps (the blue unipolar water tank type) by sticking them in outlets in
> physics class and then waiting for some unsuspecting student to turn
> the lights on in the Physics lab - and I don't remember any smell at
> that time.
Why were the outlets and the lights on the same circuit?
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 04:49:33 -0700, Uncle Monster wrote:
>
> > Did your wife smell anything burning. All these newfangled
> > electronically controlled appliances have components that contain "Magic
> > Smoke" which is necessary for the electronics to operate. When the MS
> > escapes, the appliance stops working. The age of your appliance could
> > mean that an electronic component called an "electrolytic capacitor" has
> > failed. Unfortunately, manufacturers often save a few cents on parts by
> > purchasing components that just meet the requirements to make the unit
> > work. The bane of modern electronic devices is the inexpensive
> > electrolytics that manufacturers seem to be fond of using. Anyone who
> > works with electronics can spot a failed electrolytic capacitor because
> > it has swelled or is leaking. Here's a video of a fellow replacing some
> > failed electrolytic capacitors in a TV set. This will give you some idea
> > of what to look for on your washer's control board or power supply. ^_^
>
>
> There was absolutely no smell, although we used to blow up electrolytic
> caps (the blue unipolar water tank type) by sticking them in outlets in
> physics class and then waiting for some unsuspecting student to turn
> the lights on in the Physics lab - and I don't remember any smell at
> that time.
We had power strips on the work benches that were turned on when you
came in to work in the morning. It would have worked ther.
--
charles
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 5:40:45 AM4/26/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:53:48 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote:
> Why were the outlets and the lights on the same circuit?
I don't remember if it was one switch or two.
> Why were the outlets and the lights on the same circuit?
I remember that the switch was just inside the doorway to the lab.
So, it was usually turned on by the first person who entered the lab.
The lab itself had these long countertops down the length of the lab.
At about eye level were the outlets.
The caps we stuck in the outlets and I "do" remember the labs being
dark when nobody was in there (even then, we were aware someone could
be hurt but we didn't worry about it because we associated the darkness
with nobody being in there). < yes, we were kids >
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 5:45:12 AM4/26/16
to
On Tue, 26 Apr 2016 09:40:42 +0000, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> The lab itself had these long countertops down the length of the lab.
> At about eye level were the outlets.
> The caps we stuck in the outlets and I "do" remember the labs being
> dark when nobody was in there (even then, we were aware someone could
> be hurt but we didn't worry about it because we associated the darkness
> with nobody being in there). < yes, we were kids >
PS: Don't remind me the time we took nitric acid, as I recall, and
> The lab itself had these long countertops down the length of the lab.
> At about eye level were the outlets.
> The caps we stuck in the outlets and I "do" remember the labs being
> dark when nobody was in there (even then, we were aware someone could
> be hurt but we didn't worry about it because we associated the darkness
> with nobody being in there). < yes, we were kids >
poured it into beakers containing iodine crystals and then dried it with
either ether or alcohol (as I recall) and then painted anything we wanted
e.g., the chemistry lab countertops, with the wet (stable) nitrogen
tri-iodide paste.
When that stuff dries, it's so unstable, even a fly landing on it
will cause it to explode (little purple cloud bursts sporadically
popping all over the place!).
< yes, we were kids once >
MJC
Apr 26, 2016, 9:57:00 AM4/26/16
to
In article <nfndb5$nut$2...@news.mixmin.net>, dannyd...@yahoo.com
says...
source of nitrogen, not acid.
Mike.
says...
>
> PS: Don't remind me the time we took nitric acid, as I recall, and
> poured it into beakers containing iodine crystals and then dried it with
> either ether or alcohol (as I recall) and then painted anything we wanted
> e.g., the chemistry lab countertops, with the wet (stable) nitrogen
> tri-iodide paste.
The recipe I used (and the only one I've heard of) uses ammonia as a
> PS: Don't remind me the time we took nitric acid, as I recall, and
> poured it into beakers containing iodine crystals and then dried it with
> either ether or alcohol (as I recall) and then painted anything we wanted
> e.g., the chemistry lab countertops, with the wet (stable) nitrogen
> tri-iodide paste.
source of nitrogen, not acid.
Mike.
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 12:03:54 PM4/26/16
to
On Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:56:42 +0100, MJC wrote:
> The recipe I used (and the only one I've heard of) uses ammonia as a
> source of nitrogen, not acid.
I could be remembering it wrong as it was a few decades ago.
> The recipe I used (and the only one I've heard of) uses ammonia as a
> source of nitrogen, not acid.
It was chem lab, so, there was everything available.
We may have used the nitric acid with the cotton balls ...
pf...@aol.com
Apr 26, 2016, 12:59:25 PM4/26/16
to
Jon Elson
Apr 26, 2016, 3:56:02 PM4/26/16
to
Danny DiAmico wrote:
>
> The ground straps seem to have good contact, so, I think it's
> the MMU or the CCU but I don't know yet what to do next.
> http://u33i.imgup.net/groundstraebd1.gif
Since the CCU is powered up and communicating with the buttons and
>
> The ground straps seem to have good contact, so, I think it's
> the MMU or the CCU but I don't know yet what to do next.
> http://u33i.imgup.net/groundstraebd1.gif
indicators, it is likely OK. Since there was a big POP, and the CCU can't
communicate with the MCU, which is where all the big power circuitry is, it
seems REALLY likely something in the MCU popped. When you get it out, I
think you are likely to find visible damage.
Jon
Danny DiAmico
Apr 26, 2016, 8:47:26 PM4/26/16
to
On Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:56:09 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
> Since the CCU is powered up and communicating with the buttons and
> indicators, it is likely OK. Since there was a big POP, and the CCU can't
> communicate with the MCU, which is where all the big power circuitry is, it
> seems REALLY likely something in the MCU popped. When you get it out, I
> think you are likely to find visible damage.
Thank you for that advice.
> Since the CCU is powered up and communicating with the buttons and
> indicators, it is likely OK. Since there was a big POP, and the CCU can't
> communicate with the MCU, which is where all the big power circuitry is, it
> seems REALLY likely something in the MCU popped. When you get it out, I
> think you are likely to find visible damage.
I'm kind of stuck like a deer in the headlights at this point because
I have to diagnose if it's the CCU or the MCU (or the power rectifier).
I'm kind of at a loss for diagnostic procedures because the diagnostic
test described in the manual didn't kick in.
Jon Elson
Apr 26, 2016, 11:42:07 PM4/26/16
to
burned, then it gets harder. But, if there was a loud POP, I think you WILL
find visible damage. It is possible that there is a fuse on that board, and
the failure of the fuse under hard short conditions made the noise. So, Ohm
out any fuses you find.
Jon
Zak W
Apr 27, 2016, 1:58:59 PM4/27/16
to
Danny DiAmico <dannyd...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:nfm85i$2lf$1...@news.mixmin.net:
> Subject: Re: Advice requested Whirlpool Duet Sport Washing Machine
> "popped" From: Danny DiAmico <dannyd...@yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
>
Well Danny D, there you be. Long time no see. You still living up in the
hills outside Sacramento or or San Jose or wherever? Did you ever get your
water storage problem worked out?
news:nfm85i$2lf$1...@news.mixmin.net:
> Subject: Re: Advice requested Whirlpool Duet Sport Washing Machine
> "popped" From: Danny DiAmico <dannyd...@yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
>
Well Danny D, there you be. Long time no see. You still living up in the
hills outside Sacramento or or San Jose or wherever? Did you ever get your
water storage problem worked out?
Danny DiAmico
Apr 27, 2016, 2:38:55 PM4/27/16
to
On Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:58:56 +0000, Zak W wrote:
> Well Danny D, there you be. Long time no see. You still living up in the
> hills outside Sacramento or or San Jose or wherever? Did you ever get your
> water storage problem worked out?
Yea, we formed a neighbourhood committee to inspect and periodically check on
> Well Danny D, there you be. Long time no see. You still living up in the
> hills outside Sacramento or or San Jose or wherever? Did you ever get your
> water storage problem worked out?
the water supply up here. After about six months of pumping, the one gray
well turned out to be crystalline clear (for now), so, that's been fixed.
Meanwhile, we formed a mesh Internet network, and we cleaned entire hillsides
of poison oak (see picture I just posted below from that last endeavor):
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11917454/img/11917454.jpg
We cleaned up the hillside of old washing machines and tires too!
And, you should see many thousands of Scotch Broom we pulled out after
the last good drenching (the tap roots only come out when the ground
is literally soaked).
So, um, yeah. We've been busy in the boonies of Silicon Valley.
Tekkie®
Apr 28, 2016, 2:39:58 PM4/28/16
to
Danny DiAmico posted for all of us...
>
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:58:56 +0000, Zak W wrote:
>
> > Well Danny D, there you be. Long time no see. You still living up in the
> > hills outside Sacramento or or San Jose or wherever? Did you ever get your
> > water storage problem worked out?
>
> Yea, we formed a neighbourhood committee to inspect and periodically check on
> the water supply up here. After about six months of pumping, the one gray
> well turned out to be crystalline clear (for now), so, that's been fixed.
>
determined?
--
Tekkie
>
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:58:56 +0000, Zak W wrote:
>
> > Well Danny D, there you be. Long time no see. You still living up in the
> > hills outside Sacramento or or San Jose or wherever? Did you ever get your
> > water storage problem worked out?
>
> Yea, we formed a neighbourhood committee to inspect and periodically check on
> the water supply up here. After about six months of pumping, the one gray
> well turned out to be crystalline clear (for now), so, that's been fixed.
>
> So, um, yeah. We've been busy in the boonies of Silicon Valley.
Glad to hear the gray well water cleaned up. Was the real problem ever
determined?
--
Tekkie
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
Apr 28, 2016, 3:02:42 PM4/28/16
to
On 4/24/2016 6:37 PM, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> Any washing machine experienced folks here?
>
> Wife pressed the "Power" button on the Costco Whirlpool Duet Sport washing
> machine and then, when she pressed the separate "Start" button, something
> popped. She said it sounded like a sharp crack, like a "bottle breaking".
>
> It has power (although I cycled the home circuit breakers anyway), but it
> won't do anything now when the "Start" button is pressed (nor when the
> "Cancel" button is pressed). All the lights on the front light up normally
> (it seems).
>
> So, it will power up, but it won't do anything (e.g., no water turns on
> and no spinning occurs - in fact, there are no sounds whatsoever from
> inside). It won't even turn off with the "Cancel" button (although it will
> turn off when I unplug it and then plug it back in).
>
> It was bought in 2008 and it gets used about once a week or so (a bit more
> now that we have my sister and her kids living with us).
>
> Any suggestions?
>
Get out and find some rocks by a stream.
> Hi Guys,
>
> Any washing machine experienced folks here?
>
> Wife pressed the "Power" button on the Costco Whirlpool Duet Sport washing
> machine and then, when she pressed the separate "Start" button, something
> popped. She said it sounded like a sharp crack, like a "bottle breaking".
>
> It has power (although I cycled the home circuit breakers anyway), but it
> won't do anything now when the "Start" button is pressed (nor when the
> "Cancel" button is pressed). All the lights on the front light up normally
> (it seems).
>
> So, it will power up, but it won't do anything (e.g., no water turns on
> and no spinning occurs - in fact, there are no sounds whatsoever from
> inside). It won't even turn off with the "Cancel" button (although it will
> turn off when I unplug it and then plug it back in).
>
> It was bought in 2008 and it gets used about once a week or so (a bit more
> now that we have my sister and her kids living with us).
>
> Any suggestions?
>
Get out and find some rocks by a stream.
Danny DiAmico
May 1, 2016, 7:40:26 PM5/1/16
to
Thanks for all your advice; I think it's the Motor Control Unit
(Whirlpool P/N 8540540).
If you skip to the bottom of this post, you'll see pictures of the
burned board. Do you concur based on the photos below that it's
the motor control board?
Why didn't the diagnostic test work then?
Anyway, after being totally unsuccessful at getting the Whirlpool duet
sport WFW8410SW washing machine to diagnose anything other than F28
(which is apparently the same "communications error" as the infamous F11
that youtubers all deplore), I finally just took the whole thing apart.
The en133200 F11.126/980-214 EMI Noise Filter near where the power
comes in seemed to be in good shape:
http://i.cubeupload.com/9NouUy.gif
The main computer control board (Whirlpool PN W10063510) also seemed
to be in good shape on the bottom:
http://i.cubeupload.com/3AJpZe.gif
And on the top:
http://i.cubeupload.com/vHyNQx.gif
And even looking to the sides:
http://i.cubeupload.com/s47l8r.gif
http://i.cubeupload.com/HXFRaC.gif
But, the motor control board had "something" wrong with it based
on what the plastic looked like:
http://i.cubeupload.com/0hFNfc.gif
I don't know what actually burned yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/NzBAH1.gif
As the two capacitors seem to be intact:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DLgrxP.gif
Here's one of the capacitors at a side view:
http://i.cubeupload.com/LHKttV.gif
And here's the other capacitor:
http://i.cubeupload.com/eySoyP.gif
This shows a burned trace on the MMU:
http://i.cubeupload.com/zTTwBd.gif
And this shows a closeup of that:
http://i.cubeupload.com/pg2KkN.gif
As does this show burnt components or traces:
http://i.cubeupload.com/hXFq4P.gif
I don't think I can figure out, on my own, whether
it's repairable (I suspect it's not - do you?).
So, at this point, if you have good pointers for where to buy a
new Whirlpool motor control board (PN 8540540), I'd appreciate
more advice now that it's pretty sure that it's the MCU and not
the CCU.
(Whirlpool P/N 8540540).
If you skip to the bottom of this post, you'll see pictures of the
burned board. Do you concur based on the photos below that it's
the motor control board?
Why didn't the diagnostic test work then?
Anyway, after being totally unsuccessful at getting the Whirlpool duet
sport WFW8410SW washing machine to diagnose anything other than F28
(which is apparently the same "communications error" as the infamous F11
that youtubers all deplore), I finally just took the whole thing apart.
The en133200 F11.126/980-214 EMI Noise Filter near where the power
comes in seemed to be in good shape:
http://i.cubeupload.com/9NouUy.gif
The main computer control board (Whirlpool PN W10063510) also seemed
to be in good shape on the bottom:
http://i.cubeupload.com/3AJpZe.gif
And on the top:
http://i.cubeupload.com/vHyNQx.gif
And even looking to the sides:
http://i.cubeupload.com/s47l8r.gif
http://i.cubeupload.com/HXFRaC.gif
But, the motor control board had "something" wrong with it based
on what the plastic looked like:
http://i.cubeupload.com/0hFNfc.gif
I don't know what actually burned yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/NzBAH1.gif
As the two capacitors seem to be intact:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DLgrxP.gif
Here's one of the capacitors at a side view:
http://i.cubeupload.com/LHKttV.gif
And here's the other capacitor:
http://i.cubeupload.com/eySoyP.gif
This shows a burned trace on the MMU:
http://i.cubeupload.com/zTTwBd.gif
And this shows a closeup of that:
http://i.cubeupload.com/pg2KkN.gif
As does this show burnt components or traces:
http://i.cubeupload.com/hXFq4P.gif
I don't think I can figure out, on my own, whether
it's repairable (I suspect it's not - do you?).
So, at this point, if you have good pointers for where to buy a
new Whirlpool motor control board (PN 8540540), I'd appreciate
more advice now that it's pretty sure that it's the MCU and not
the CCU.
Danny DiAmico
May 1, 2016, 8:17:56 PM5/1/16
to
On Sun, 01 May 2016 23:40:24 +0000, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> Thanks for all your advice; I think it's the Motor Control Unit
> (Whirlpool P/N 8540540).
The part number seems to be either 8540540 or AKO 706497-05
> Thanks for all your advice; I think it's the Motor Control Unit
> (Whirlpool P/N 8540540).
based on this sticker on the Whirlpool WFW8410SW motor control
board.
http://i.cubeupload.com/H3k19q.gif
I wonder what caused the board to blow up? Notice this capacitor
has a hole blown in it, for example:
http://i.cubeupload.com/UQQp1S.gif
Do you think if I put in a new board, that it will also blow?
pf...@aol.com
May 2, 2016, 11:03:27 AM5/2/16
to
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 8:17:56 PM UTC-4, Danny DiAmico wrote:
>
> Do you think if I put in a new board, that it will also blow?
First, the capacitor visible from the top is toast - the top has clearly swelled, a condition that is typical of a short.
>
> Do you think if I put in a new board, that it will also blow?
The one large trace looks like a fusible link designed to fail, which, of course, it did. But, that is also likely to be a coincidence rather than an actual design element.
And you also lost a disc cap - that is quite unusual and takes onehelluva spike to accomplish. Which would also explain the fried resistors. Replace it with a new cap of the same value, but with a rating of at least 400V, 600 being better.
There is lots-O-SMT stuff going on, a major PITA to repair unless you have steady hands and good eyesight. Not impossible, but not easy.
I would try to repair the board first - unless a replacement is cheap and time is of the essence. Replace BOTH large electrolytic capacitors, go up one rating (at least) in voltage, and also look for a higher temperature rating than OEM, if one will fit.
You will need to find out whether the resistor near the burn is still good, and its value (don't assume) before you replace it and rebuild the burnt trace. On the long trace, some copper foil will do, solder it to the burnt ends and then trace it over with solder. Once that is done, a bit of CA to hold it to the board will finish the job.
As to putting in a new board, unless you check the ingoing and outgoing voltages, there is no guarantee that there was not an outside cause. But given the appearance of the electrolytics, I suspect they are the first cause.
Danny DiAmico
May 2, 2016, 11:45:40 AM5/2/16
to
On Sun, 01 May 2016 19:04:35 -0700, Oren wrote:
> Danny, your pics are to large. Thin the megs down. Your's choke my
> bandwidth. Not normally a concern for me.
I'm sorry.
From my experience with you guys, you *see things* I don't see when
I show you pictures (remember the garage door frame rebuild?).
So, I wanted you to have the *biggest* pictures I could supply, so
that you guys could zoom in.
As a courtesy to you all, who help me immensely, here are the shrunk
pictures, in the order of most important to least important.
This is the motor control board (PN 8540540, also PN W10163007) for
the Whirlpool Duet Sport WFW8410SW washing machine:
http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
Notice that traces are burnt:
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7Hwkl.jpg
And that multiple surface-mount components have exploded:
http://i.cubeupload.com/YGQ9cM.jpg
There is even a "bullet hole" in one of the flat devices, which,
might not be a capacitor because it's labelled "R16" whereas the
other capacitors have a "C" designation as per typical convention:
http://i.cubeupload.com/RfF0Bv.jpg
I'm not sure if one of the huge electrolytic capacitors has blown
or not, because the top isn't flat, but I don't know if it was
flat to begin with:
http://i.cubeupload.com/vdL6Ut.jpg
The other huge electrolytic capacitor seems OK though:
http://i.cubeupload.com/tb3cu4.jpg
The part number is clearly shown on this sticker (and a call to
the official Whirlpool parts center (866-698-2538) confirms that
the part number W10163007 and 8540540. (It's important to note
that the part number is not W10205342, which is sometimes listed
in the parts diagrams - that must be for a newer model?)
http://i.cubeupload.com/ErHVuc.jpg
I'll repost the shrunk pictures of the CPU board and the EMI
filter separately, but they seem pristine so I don't think the
problem is there (unless they caused the problem in the first
place).
Let me know if these pictures need to be shrunk further as I do
try to document everything not only so that you guys can help
me, but also so that others benefit from each action we take.
PS: Where is Jeff Liebermann when you need him!
> Danny, your pics are to large. Thin the megs down. Your's choke my
> bandwidth. Not normally a concern for me.
I'm sorry.
From my experience with you guys, you *see things* I don't see when
I show you pictures (remember the garage door frame rebuild?).
So, I wanted you to have the *biggest* pictures I could supply, so
that you guys could zoom in.
As a courtesy to you all, who help me immensely, here are the shrunk
pictures, in the order of most important to least important.
This is the motor control board (PN 8540540, also PN W10163007) for
the Whirlpool Duet Sport WFW8410SW washing machine:
http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
Notice that traces are burnt:
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7Hwkl.jpg
And that multiple surface-mount components have exploded:
http://i.cubeupload.com/YGQ9cM.jpg
There is even a "bullet hole" in one of the flat devices, which,
might not be a capacitor because it's labelled "R16" whereas the
other capacitors have a "C" designation as per typical convention:
http://i.cubeupload.com/RfF0Bv.jpg
I'm not sure if one of the huge electrolytic capacitors has blown
or not, because the top isn't flat, but I don't know if it was
flat to begin with:
http://i.cubeupload.com/vdL6Ut.jpg
The other huge electrolytic capacitor seems OK though:
http://i.cubeupload.com/tb3cu4.jpg
The part number is clearly shown on this sticker (and a call to
the official Whirlpool parts center (866-698-2538) confirms that
the part number W10163007 and 8540540. (It's important to note
that the part number is not W10205342, which is sometimes listed
in the parts diagrams - that must be for a newer model?)
http://i.cubeupload.com/ErHVuc.jpg
I'll repost the shrunk pictures of the CPU board and the EMI
filter separately, but they seem pristine so I don't think the
problem is there (unless they caused the problem in the first
place).
Let me know if these pictures need to be shrunk further as I do
try to document everything not only so that you guys can help
me, but also so that others benefit from each action we take.
PS: Where is Jeff Liebermann when you need him!
Danny DiAmico
May 2, 2016, 11:52:36 AM5/2/16
to
On Sun, 01 May 2016 21:33:07 -0700, Uncle Monster wrote:
> You'd be better off with a new board.
> What you think is a disk capacitor could be an MOV surge arrester.
> When those get blown to hell and traces burned off the circuit board,
> all other components are suspect.
> These newfangled electronically controlled appliances are a lot more
> vulnerable to power surges than the old school electromechanical
> appliances. I haven't checked recently but I once could buy
> rebuilt electromechanical timers for appliances.
> I hate wasting things but it's often cheaper to replace a control board.
We did have rains here in California, as Jeff Liebermann would know, where
the wind blew out the power in the mountains three time in one week.
So this was the *first* time the washer was started after the power
went out multiple times!
And you are correct that the part I thought was a capacitor is not
labelled with a C (as the rest of the caps are), but it's labelled
R16, so, it's not a cap.
http://i.cubeupload.com/RfF0Bv.jpg
The rest of the capacitors on the motor control board seem to be ok:
http://i.cubeupload.com/TWiBYR.jpg
But certainly some of the surface-mount components have fried:
http://i.cubeupload.com/xRnjw9.jpg
The good news is that the EMI suppression filter seems to be intact:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ONiqvC.jpg
And the main computer control board (CCU) seems to be in good shape:
http://i.cubeupload.com/qABhEj.jpg
Nothing seems burnt on the CCU:
http://i.cubeupload.com/zBAmq5.jpg
So, now my goal is to see where the best place to get a used or rebuilt
or new Motor Control Board (MCU) P/N W10163007 or PN 8540540 from:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ErHVuc.jpg
> You'd be better off with a new board.
> What you think is a disk capacitor could be an MOV surge arrester.
> When those get blown to hell and traces burned off the circuit board,
> all other components are suspect.
> These newfangled electronically controlled appliances are a lot more
> vulnerable to power surges than the old school electromechanical
> appliances. I haven't checked recently but I once could buy
> rebuilt electromechanical timers for appliances.
> I hate wasting things but it's often cheaper to replace a control board.
We did have rains here in California, as Jeff Liebermann would know, where
the wind blew out the power in the mountains three time in one week.
So this was the *first* time the washer was started after the power
went out multiple times!
And you are correct that the part I thought was a capacitor is not
labelled with a C (as the rest of the caps are), but it's labelled
R16, so, it's not a cap.
http://i.cubeupload.com/RfF0Bv.jpg
The rest of the capacitors on the motor control board seem to be ok:
http://i.cubeupload.com/TWiBYR.jpg
But certainly some of the surface-mount components have fried:
http://i.cubeupload.com/xRnjw9.jpg
The good news is that the EMI suppression filter seems to be intact:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ONiqvC.jpg
And the main computer control board (CCU) seems to be in good shape:
http://i.cubeupload.com/qABhEj.jpg
Nothing seems burnt on the CCU:
http://i.cubeupload.com/zBAmq5.jpg
So, now my goal is to see where the best place to get a used or rebuilt
or new Motor Control Board (MCU) P/N W10163007 or PN 8540540 from:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ErHVuc.jpg
Danny DiAmico
May 2, 2016, 12:55:35 PM5/2/16
to
On Mon, 02 May 2016 09:32:04 -0700, Uncle Monster wrote:
> Well Dan I hope you can get it repaired but the problem with a lot electronic
> controls is that when they're hit with a power surge that blows the hell out
> of the protectors and blasts runs off a circuit board, all the other parts
> are often damaged. MOV's will actually wear out after so many power surges.
> On phone lines, me and the guys always installed extra protection and the
> protectors would sacrifice themselves to protect the equipment.
> The protectors are easily replaced by plugging in a new one.
> At your home, you should look into a meter base surge arrester from your
> power company. I think it will add a few bucks to your power bill every
> month but your power company will guarantee it to protect your appliances.
> I don't know what the power company policy is where you reside but it
> wouldn't hurt to ask them about a whole house surge arrester. ^_^
>
> Meter base protection:
> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-50240-MSA-Secondary-Arrestor-Protective/dp/B0019F6X3I
>
> Whole house surge arrester:
> http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Awhole%20house%20surge%20arrestor&tag=duckduckgo-d-20
Thanks for the suggestion of a whole-house surge suppressor.
I do have a generator, which kicks in automatically as the power goes
out here in California at least a dozen times a year (it's like living
in a third world country).
I'm not even counting the times the power goes out for seconds, where
the generator doesn't even kick in, or only kicks in for a few seconds,
the power is that bad from PG&E.
So, the two-hundred dollar Amazon surge suppressor you listed looks
reasonable (considering it would cost more than that to put MOVs on
all the computers and electronic devices).
I wonder how it works if I buy that two-hundred dollar part:
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-50240-MSA-Secondary-Arrestor-Protective/dp/B0019F6X3I
Or, if I buy the eighty-dollar part:
http://www.amazon.com/WHOLE-LIGHTNING-PROTECTOR-Spike-Ender-Suppressor/dp/B003Z9S974/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1462207395&sr=8-4
Does the power company let me put it in myself?
> Well Dan I hope you can get it repaired but the problem with a lot electronic
> controls is that when they're hit with a power surge that blows the hell out
> of the protectors and blasts runs off a circuit board, all the other parts
> are often damaged. MOV's will actually wear out after so many power surges.
> On phone lines, me and the guys always installed extra protection and the
> protectors would sacrifice themselves to protect the equipment.
> The protectors are easily replaced by plugging in a new one.
> At your home, you should look into a meter base surge arrester from your
> power company. I think it will add a few bucks to your power bill every
> month but your power company will guarantee it to protect your appliances.
> I don't know what the power company policy is where you reside but it
> wouldn't hurt to ask them about a whole house surge arrester. ^_^
>
> Meter base protection:
> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-50240-MSA-Secondary-Arrestor-Protective/dp/B0019F6X3I
>
> Whole house surge arrester:
> http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Awhole%20house%20surge%20arrestor&tag=duckduckgo-d-20
Thanks for the suggestion of a whole-house surge suppressor.
I do have a generator, which kicks in automatically as the power goes
out here in California at least a dozen times a year (it's like living
in a third world country).
I'm not even counting the times the power goes out for seconds, where
the generator doesn't even kick in, or only kicks in for a few seconds,
the power is that bad from PG&E.
So, the two-hundred dollar Amazon surge suppressor you listed looks
reasonable (considering it would cost more than that to put MOVs on
all the computers and electronic devices).
I wonder how it works if I buy that two-hundred dollar part:
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-50240-MSA-Secondary-Arrestor-Protective/dp/B0019F6X3I
Or, if I buy the eighty-dollar part:
http://www.amazon.com/WHOLE-LIGHTNING-PROTECTOR-Spike-Ender-Suppressor/dp/B003Z9S974/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1462207395&sr=8-4
Does the power company let me put it in myself?
Danny DiAmico
May 2, 2016, 1:08:49 PM5/2/16
to
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 14:39:57 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:
> Glad to hear the gray well water cleaned up.
> Was the real problem ever determined?
We can never be sure, but what we did was hike downhill from the
> Glad to hear the gray well water cleaned up.
> Was the real problem ever determined?
spot the 500 foot well was dug. We hiked about 500 feet below
that house and then we dug into the hillside (it's public open
space, so, we just dug without permission with our hands).
Since the hill is steep, there was only about six inches of
top soil, which we kicked away with our boots, and we noticed
that there was a wide expance of gray "mud" at that level.
When we stopped for a moment to survey the area, we belatedly
noticed a "band" of no vegetation at about the same level,
crossing the mountainside along the isocline.
Given that we kicked away the topsoil in a half dozen spots,
where this band seems very localized (about 100 feet long and
only about 6 feet to 15 feet in height), our *assumption* is
that there is a band of mud that was mixed up with the
Franciscan sediments 30 million (or so) years ago when
the Pacific plate rammed into the edge of California.
So, what we *think* happened is that the well drillers simply
hit that "puddle" of gray mud at about 500 feet and that it took
months to pump all that mud out from the pocket that the drillers
were obtaining the water from.
The funny thing is that just those two houses experienced that
gray mud, which even the well drillers said was odd in our area,
so, take everything we say with a grain of salt, but do realize
there are a lot of engineers on this hell who have pondered this
situation, so, that's the best we could have come up with.
BTW, the 100-foot long 15-feet wide bridge and treehouse was put
on hold because the storms blew it down. But we rebuilt it, and
we're starting to build the 16-foot-by-16-foot treehouse itself,
but this time, we anchored 1/2 inch steel cables to hold the
treehouse *above* the 100-foot long bridge (Jeff Liebermann is
always welcome to visit and I'll show it to him since he lives
near by).
If you want, I'll snap some pictures of the new setup, but, it
will look really nice since it's 80 feet above the ground when
it's all done. Right now, we have the 100-foot suspension bridge
done, and we're starting on the treehouse itself, which is going
to be floating above the suspension bridge about 75 feet from
the hillside and about 25 feet from the anchor redwood and about
80 or so feet above the ground.
Danny DiAmico
May 2, 2016, 1:23:44 PM5/2/16
to
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:54:05 -0500, CRNG wrote:
> Well done. It's good to see that kind of community-based planning,
> cooperation and action.
Thanks for noticing that we all work together (as Jeff Liebermann would
know, we stick together in the mountains).
I called the "circuit board medics" at 800-547-2049 last week who
said that an F28 on the Whirlpool duet sport washer is almost always
a bad motor control board.
This was before I had taken out the MCU and found it burnt, so, they're
right. In hindsight, if I had only known that, I wouldn't have removed
both the CCU and the EMI filter (I broke a wire on the CCU trying to get
it out, for example).
http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
So, to help others.
1. If you get an F28 on the Whirlpool duet sport WFW8410SW, it's almost
always the motor control board.
2. Wiggle the blue wires on both the motor control board and the CCU,
but if that doesn't solve the problem, then you have to remove the
motor control board.
3. To remove the MCU, you have to remove the 16 quarter-inch hexhead
screws holding the back plate in place.
4. It's advised to also remove the lower cross brace (two more screws).
5. Some people remove the top of the shock absorber but I left it in place.
6. Then you have to cut or dig out the 4 tie wraps holding the harnesses
to the MCU plastic covering.
7. Then you have to be a genius or a magician to put a screwdriver under
the MCU white box and pry it up and then slide the MCU toward the
front of the washer, to get it to release its grip.
8. Then you remove all the wire connections & pull it out from the
bottom of the Whirlpool duet sport washer.
9. Once you pry open (and probably break) the crappy plastic (they
really use really really really brittle plastic), you will see
the scorch marks as shown below.
http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
At this point, you put the MMU back in its plastic case, and you remove
the CCU (if desired) and you ship both of those boards to the rebuilders
at "Circuit Board Medics" 800-547-2049x3) at your cost. They told me
that USPS is the least responsible, so use UPS or Fedex.
Exclusive of your costs to ship to them, the charges are:
A. Exchange rebuilt MCU = $175 ($160 + $15 shipping + $100 core charge)
B. Rebuild your MCU = $145 ($130 + $15 return shipping)
They give you a 1-year warranty and they will test both boards for
free, just in case my totally burned out MCU isn't the real problem.
http://i.cubeupload.com/xRnjw9.jpg
Here's a picture of my CCU, which seems to be in OK shape:
http://i.cubeupload.com/zBAmq5.jpg
Unless I find a better deal than ~$150, I think I'll have them rebuild
my board. A brand-new washer is only four or five times that at about
$600 to $800, so, it's an expensive enough repair to wonder if I should
just buy a new washer instead.
Nonetheless, I don't have much money lately (being retired is costing
me more than I thought, especially with two families living under the
same household now, with my sister and her kids living with me), so,
I will just look to see if I can find a new board for around that same
price.
Otherwise, I'd suggest the rebuilders as they seem competent.
> Well done. It's good to see that kind of community-based planning,
> cooperation and action.
Thanks for noticing that we all work together (as Jeff Liebermann would
know, we stick together in the mountains).
I called the "circuit board medics" at 800-547-2049 last week who
said that an F28 on the Whirlpool duet sport washer is almost always
a bad motor control board.
This was before I had taken out the MCU and found it burnt, so, they're
right. In hindsight, if I had only known that, I wouldn't have removed
both the CCU and the EMI filter (I broke a wire on the CCU trying to get
it out, for example).
http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
So, to help others.
1. If you get an F28 on the Whirlpool duet sport WFW8410SW, it's almost
always the motor control board.
2. Wiggle the blue wires on both the motor control board and the CCU,
but if that doesn't solve the problem, then you have to remove the
motor control board.
3. To remove the MCU, you have to remove the 16 quarter-inch hexhead
screws holding the back plate in place.
4. It's advised to also remove the lower cross brace (two more screws).
5. Some people remove the top of the shock absorber but I left it in place.
6. Then you have to cut or dig out the 4 tie wraps holding the harnesses
to the MCU plastic covering.
7. Then you have to be a genius or a magician to put a screwdriver under
the MCU white box and pry it up and then slide the MCU toward the
front of the washer, to get it to release its grip.
8. Then you remove all the wire connections & pull it out from the
bottom of the Whirlpool duet sport washer.
9. Once you pry open (and probably break) the crappy plastic (they
really use really really really brittle plastic), you will see
the scorch marks as shown below.
http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
At this point, you put the MMU back in its plastic case, and you remove
the CCU (if desired) and you ship both of those boards to the rebuilders
at "Circuit Board Medics" 800-547-2049x3) at your cost. They told me
that USPS is the least responsible, so use UPS or Fedex.
Exclusive of your costs to ship to them, the charges are:
A. Exchange rebuilt MCU = $175 ($160 + $15 shipping + $100 core charge)
B. Rebuild your MCU = $145 ($130 + $15 return shipping)
They give you a 1-year warranty and they will test both boards for
free, just in case my totally burned out MCU isn't the real problem.
http://i.cubeupload.com/xRnjw9.jpg
Here's a picture of my CCU, which seems to be in OK shape:
http://i.cubeupload.com/zBAmq5.jpg
Unless I find a better deal than ~$150, I think I'll have them rebuild
my board. A brand-new washer is only four or five times that at about
$600 to $800, so, it's an expensive enough repair to wonder if I should
just buy a new washer instead.
Nonetheless, I don't have much money lately (being retired is costing
me more than I thought, especially with two families living under the
same household now, with my sister and her kids living with me), so,
I will just look to see if I can find a new board for around that same
price.
Otherwise, I'd suggest the rebuilders as they seem competent.
Danny DiAmico
May 2, 2016, 1:36:56 PM5/2/16
to
On Mon, 02 May 2016 10:19:21 -0700, Uncle Monster wrote:
> You should really call your power company first to see if they'll supply
> it and guarantee it. If you get your own, you'll need a licensed
electrician to install it because he'll notify the power company that
the seal has been cut off the meter mount. If you have an old style
meter which requires a human meter reader to look at it, he/she/it
will report the removal of the seal and this upsets power companies.
If you have a smart meter, it will rat on you to the power company
that it has been removed without permission. Now you can install your
own whole house arrester on your main power panel without having to
notify the power company but you should find out about the requirements
for permits. If you're in a rural area, there are usually no permit
Nazis around and nosy neighbors to turn you in. ^_^
It's a smart meter.
Yes. It's rural. And I have a good rapport with my neighbors, where
we have a rule, simply stated as "you can do anything you want on
your property and I won't say 'nuthin" ... just stay off "my" property!
Heh heh ... (everyone out here has guns except me, and the only reason
I don't have 'em is because I'm worried about the kids getting a hold
of 'em accidentally, since I know of a family that was affected by that
happening).
I like the idea of putting something on the circuit breaker itself.
Here's what I have, as far as I know, given that all houses out here
must have no wires attached to them within 25 feet of the house except
underground:
1. I have my own dedicated power pole with a transformer on it about
fifty feet from the house.
2. The underground feed pops up at the outside panel and I can see
three inch-thick aluminium feeds (which I presume is 200 amp service
at two phases)
3. The meter is a smart meter attached at the feed, outside the house.
4. The Generac inverter box is on the inside of the wall where the
meter is.
5. There is a main circuit breaker panel outside at the meter which
basically has only a few circuits on it as I recall (the pool,
the well, and the big stuff like the garage 220 volts).
6. Inside there are two circuit breaker panels, one for the old part
of the house and one for the newer part of the house).
So, I would guess that I put the device in the circuit breaker panel
outside. Is that correct?
> You should really call your power company first to see if they'll supply
> it and guarantee it. If you get your own, you'll need a licensed
electrician to install it because he'll notify the power company that
the seal has been cut off the meter mount. If you have an old style
meter which requires a human meter reader to look at it, he/she/it
will report the removal of the seal and this upsets power companies.
If you have a smart meter, it will rat on you to the power company
that it has been removed without permission. Now you can install your
own whole house arrester on your main power panel without having to
notify the power company but you should find out about the requirements
for permits. If you're in a rural area, there are usually no permit
Nazis around and nosy neighbors to turn you in. ^_^
It's a smart meter.
Yes. It's rural. And I have a good rapport with my neighbors, where
we have a rule, simply stated as "you can do anything you want on
your property and I won't say 'nuthin" ... just stay off "my" property!
Heh heh ... (everyone out here has guns except me, and the only reason
I don't have 'em is because I'm worried about the kids getting a hold
of 'em accidentally, since I know of a family that was affected by that
happening).
I like the idea of putting something on the circuit breaker itself.
Here's what I have, as far as I know, given that all houses out here
must have no wires attached to them within 25 feet of the house except
underground:
1. I have my own dedicated power pole with a transformer on it about
fifty feet from the house.
2. The underground feed pops up at the outside panel and I can see
three inch-thick aluminium feeds (which I presume is 200 amp service
at two phases)
3. The meter is a smart meter attached at the feed, outside the house.
4. The Generac inverter box is on the inside of the wall where the
meter is.
5. There is a main circuit breaker panel outside at the meter which
basically has only a few circuits on it as I recall (the pool,
the well, and the big stuff like the garage 220 volts).
6. Inside there are two circuit breaker panels, one for the old part
of the house and one for the newer part of the house).
So, I would guess that I put the device in the circuit breaker panel
outside. Is that correct?
Tekkie®
May 3, 2016, 4:17:46 PM5/3/16
to
Danny DiAmico posted for all of us...
>
>
--
Tekkie
Danny DiAmico
May 4, 2016, 9:14:27 PM5/4/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:37:59 +0000, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> Wife pressed the "Power" button on the Costco Whirlpool Duet Sport washing
> machine and then, when she pressed the separate "Start" button, something
> popped. She said it sounded like a sharp crack, like a "bottle breaking".
Just to give back to the team with a current update ........
> Wife pressed the "Power" button on the Costco Whirlpool Duet Sport washing
> machine and then, when she pressed the separate "Start" button, something
> popped. She said it sounded like a sharp crack, like a "bottle breaking".
http://i.cubeupload.com/YGQ9cM.jpg
1. I shipped the boards off to "Circuit Board Medics" at 800-547-2049
2. They told me over the phone my F28 (aka F11) is almost certainly a blown MMU.
3. They didn't know it at the time, but my MMU has multiple charcoal spots!
4. So, they're right.
http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
5. Nonetheless, I sent them *both* the MMU and the CCU.
6. This is so that they can test them both (just in case).
http://i.cubeupload.com/RfF0Bv.jpg
7. Current charges are $130 + $15 Fed Ex out + $15 shipping & handling back.
8. That's $160 for them to rebuild the MMU, with a 1-year warranty.
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7Hwkl.jpg
9. Other options were to buy a new ($200 to $300) or used ($100 to $200) MMU.
10. Or a new washing machine ($600 to $800).
http://i.cubeupload.com/ErHVuc.jpg
Oren
May 5, 2016, 1:57:46 PM5/5/16
to
Have you read the warranty for what is actually covered? (Power surges
or installed by a homeowner, acts of God) :-\
ohg...@gmail.com
May 5, 2016, 2:24:39 PM5/5/16
to
John
Danny DiAmico
May 5, 2016, 4:25:29 PM5/5/16
to
On Thu, 05 May 2016 10:57:38 -0700, Oren wrote:
> Danny,
>
> Have you read the warranty for what is actually covered? (Power surges
> or installed by a homeowner, acts of God) :-\
Naah. I'm not a believer in warrantees.
> Danny,
>
> Have you read the warranty for what is actually covered? (Power surges
> or installed by a homeowner, acts of God) :-\
A lot of people buy batteries, for example, based on the warranty, which
is ridiculous for something so easily characterized by its physical
attributes. Same with tires which have standardized tests run on them
(yes, I know the tests are flawed, but relying on the standard government
tests is better than relying upon marketing warrantees).
In fact, I can't think of more than one or two instances in my entire
life that I've actually made good on a parts warranty anyway.
So, I'm not really worried about the warranty. I'm more worried that
I just paid almost $200 to repair something that is only worth about
3 to 4 times that, which is an almost unacceptable level of repair.
In fact, parting out washing machines must be a lucrative business
because the darn thing only has about a dozen major parts, so, if each
major part is $200, then I should *buy* new washing machines and part
them out as a business to supplement my retirement.
Danny DiAmico
May 5, 2016, 4:34:28 PM5/5/16
to
On Thu, 05 May 2016 20:25:26 +0000, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> In fact, I can't think of more than one or two instances in my entire
> life that I've actually made good on a parts warranty anyway.
By the way, since I wonder what you guys think of the three shipping
> In fact, I can't think of more than one or two instances in my entire
> life that I've actually made good on a parts warranty anyway.
services, as I ran into the following "issue" trying to ship a 2 pound
box from California to South Carolina.
1. USPS
2. UPS
3. Fedex
USPS
Since I needed to trust that the parts got there and that they weren't
lost, and since I didn't pay for insurance (I never do), I didn't use
the USPS because, in my experience, USPS may be inexpensive, but they're
quite unreliable (highly unreliable in fact).
UPS
Normally, I have no problem with UPS being the cheapest shipper and the
second most reliable shipper. But in this case, UPS was $18 so I walked
out the door and headed over to FedEx to check their prices.
FedEx
Normally I find FedEx the most reliable but often the most expensive,
but in this case, they were 3 dollars cheaper (on a $15 price, which
is a whopping 20%) so, I went with FedEx five day.
Do you normally find FedEx to be cheaper than UPS?
I thought it was normally the other way around?
JC
May 5, 2016, 4:49:32 PM5/5/16
to
Have you not heard of Ebay?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Whirlpool-Kenmore-FL-Washer-MOTOR-CONTROL-BOARD-8540540-W10163007-WFW8500SR00-/141974974420?hash=item210e5e2fd4:g:zo4AAOSwjMJXC~dR
If the link is not working its Ebay item 141974974420
There's probably other listings
Chuck
May 5, 2016, 5:33:59 PM5/5/16
to
the wrong address, claim they have come to your house when they have
not and have claimed they can't find a normal street address. USPS and
UPS are both very reliable.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Danny DiAmico
May 5, 2016, 6:30:51 PM5/5/16
to
On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:49:28 -0400, JC wrote:
> Fedex, always cheaper.
I'm actually surprised that FedEx is "always cheaper" than UPS.
If that's true, I wonder why?
Of course, it could be simply a business decision, or, maybe they
have inherent efficiencies over UPS?
Why would Fedex be "always cheaper" than UPS (for typical packages)?
> Have you not heard of Ebay?
Of course.
When I googled for the part, I saw $25 boards on Ebay.
While I love a good price as much as anyone does, the range for the boards was
from $25 to $250 aftermarket, and $300 OEM from Whirlpool.
The problem with that is I don't have the EXPERIENCE to know which Ebay
supplier is reliably providing a good board or not.
While I'm all for taking risks, you usually have to offset a risk
with some knowledge. For example, I don't buy tire warrantees because
I can fix my own flats, so, I ameliorate the risk.
I didn't have the knowledge to buy a $25 board on Ebay and get
away with it on the first shot by getting a good part.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Whirlpool-Kenmore-FL-Washer-MOTOR-CONTROL-BOARD-8540540-W10163007-WFW8500SR00-/141974974420?hash=item210e5e2fd4:g:zo4AAOSwjMJXC~dR
> If the link is not working its Ebay item 141974974420
> There's probably other listings
I saw that EXACT board when I first googled, as I remember the
writing on the metal heat sink. The problem is that I don't
have enough information to TRUST that $60 price. Yeah, I see
the 98% feedback but I don't know how much I can trust that.
Like anyone, I'd rather pay $60 + $15 +$15 = $90 over
$145 + $15 = $160 but I feel I can trust the circuit board medics,
while I'm not sure what to trust in that board.
So, I *would* have gone for the $25 board if I had more information,
but I didn't have enough to trust Ebay.
> Fedex, always cheaper.
I'm actually surprised that FedEx is "always cheaper" than UPS.
If that's true, I wonder why?
Of course, it could be simply a business decision, or, maybe they
have inherent efficiencies over UPS?
Why would Fedex be "always cheaper" than UPS (for typical packages)?
> Have you not heard of Ebay?
When I googled for the part, I saw $25 boards on Ebay.
While I love a good price as much as anyone does, the range for the boards was
from $25 to $250 aftermarket, and $300 OEM from Whirlpool.
The problem with that is I don't have the EXPERIENCE to know which Ebay
supplier is reliably providing a good board or not.
While I'm all for taking risks, you usually have to offset a risk
with some knowledge. For example, I don't buy tire warrantees because
I can fix my own flats, so, I ameliorate the risk.
I didn't have the knowledge to buy a $25 board on Ebay and get
away with it on the first shot by getting a good part.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Whirlpool-Kenmore-FL-Washer-MOTOR-CONTROL-BOARD-8540540-W10163007-WFW8500SR00-/141974974420?hash=item210e5e2fd4:g:zo4AAOSwjMJXC~dR
> If the link is not working its Ebay item 141974974420
> There's probably other listings
writing on the metal heat sink. The problem is that I don't
have enough information to TRUST that $60 price. Yeah, I see
the 98% feedback but I don't know how much I can trust that.
Like anyone, I'd rather pay $60 + $15 +$15 = $90 over
$145 + $15 = $160 but I feel I can trust the circuit board medics,
while I'm not sure what to trust in that board.
So, I *would* have gone for the $25 board if I had more information,
but I didn't have enough to trust Ebay.
JC
May 5, 2016, 7:22:51 PM5/5/16
to
On 5/5/2016 6:30 PM, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:49:28 -0400, JC wrote:
>
>> Fedex, always cheaper.
>
>
> I'm actually surprised that FedEx is "always cheaper" than UPS.
> If that's true, I wonder why?
>
> Of course, it could be simply a business decision, or, maybe they
> have inherent efficiencies over UPS?
>
> Why would Fedex be "always cheaper" than UPS (for typical packages)?
>
>
UPS is union labor, Fedex are not, which is why they are sometimes
> On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:49:28 -0400, JC wrote:
>
>> Fedex, always cheaper.
>
>
> I'm actually surprised that FedEx is "always cheaper" than UPS.
> If that's true, I wonder why?
>
> Of course, it could be simply a business decision, or, maybe they
> have inherent efficiencies over UPS?
>
> Why would Fedex be "always cheaper" than UPS (for typical packages)?
>
>
really crap at deliveries using contracted white van guys. I've had
plenty of problems with fedex but they usually sort it in my favor. Not
knocking UPS, they are good but also have a few bad guys. For a washing
machine board I'd use USPS priority. (Use the free boxes). Never lost
one package in 16 years.
You seem to be overworking the washing machine thing, for $60 I'd go for
the "tested working" board, if it don't work or blows up when installed
you get your money back through Ebay (no contest there) and you probably
know there is something else wrong that's blowing up the board. Same
thing will happen with your $200 rebuild. Scary stuff.
Danny DiAmico
May 5, 2016, 10:16:37 PM5/5/16
to
On Thu, 05 May 2016 19:22:48 -0400, JC wrote:
> You seem to be overworking the washing machine thing, for $60 I'd go for
> the "tested working" board, if it don't work or blows up when installed
> you get your money back through Ebay (no contest there) and you probably
> know there is something else wrong that's blowing up the board. Same
> thing will happen with your $200 rebuild. Scary stuff.
This may very well be the case.
> You seem to be overworking the washing machine thing, for $60 I'd go for
> the "tested working" board, if it don't work or blows up when installed
> you get your money back through Ebay (no contest there) and you probably
> know there is something else wrong that's blowing up the board. Same
> thing will happen with your $200 rebuild. Scary stuff.
It's too late now, but, you must agree that I did *ask* first!
Your suggestion didn't come up until *after* I made the decision.
However, its' still a good one, as maybe I erred on the wrong side.
I won't know if it works if I made the right decision.
But if it doesn't work - that's where we'll see if it matters.
I do *understand* your point that I wasted my money out of sheer fear.
But, to my credit, I *did* ask first.
Tekkie®
May 7, 2016, 3:14:45 PM5/7/16
to
Danny DiAmico posted for all of us...
>
>
Isn't it time to collect money off your sister? Is she the one that broke
it? <g> Map the laundromats?
--
Tekkie
Danny DiAmico
May 7, 2016, 8:10:59 PM5/7/16
to
On Sat, 07 May 2016 15:14:48 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:
> Everybody has their comfort level. It's the crap shoot of life.
>
> Isn't it time to collect money off your sister? Is she the one that
> broke it? <g> Map the laundromats?
I think the multiple power surges during the recent rain is what
> Everybody has their comfort level. It's the crap shoot of life.
>
> Isn't it time to collect money off your sister? Is she the one that
> broke it? <g> Map the laundromats?
fried the MMU board.
I haven't heard anything from the rebuilders yet, but I'll let
you know what happens when I know.
avag...@gmail.com
May 8, 2016, 9:43:57 PM5/8/16
to
Any suggestions?
PMD 620 stayed black when slid on power
BLACK SCREEN
I said
YOU MOTHERFUCKER
3 times n put it back on the dash top.
45 minute later picked it up slid power on n there we were recording
EYEEYAHHAHAHHA YOU MOTHERFUCKER $300
PMD 620 stayed black when slid on power
BLACK SCREEN
I said
YOU MOTHERFUCKER
3 times n put it back on the dash top.
45 minute later picked it up slid power on n there we were recording
EYEEYAHHAHAHHA YOU MOTHERFUCKER $300
Tekkie®
May 9, 2016, 2:47:50 PM5/9/16
to
Danny DiAmico posted for all of us...
>
>
> On Sat, 07 May 2016 15:14:48 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:
>
> > Everybody has their comfort level. It's the crap shoot of life.
> >
> > Isn't it time to collect money off your sister? Is she the one that
> > broke it? <g> Map the laundromats?
>
> I think the multiple power surges during the recent rain is what
> fried the MMU board.
You don't have to tell her that. She creates a power surge every time she
>
> > Everybody has their comfort level. It's the crap shoot of life.
> >
> > Isn't it time to collect money off your sister? Is she the one that
> > broke it? <g> Map the laundromats?
>
> I think the multiple power surges during the recent rain is what
> fried the MMU board.
uses it. It was fine to she touched it...<G>
>
> I haven't heard anything from the rebuilders yet, but I'll let
> you know what happens when I know.
That reminds me of something. Actually two...
> I haven't heard anything from the rebuilders yet, but I'll let
> you know what happens when I know.
--
Tekkie
Danny DiAmico
May 23, 2016, 1:19:32 PM5/23/16
to
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:37:59 +0000, Danny DiAmico wrote:
> Any washing machine experienced folks here?
Bad news.
The Circuit Board Medics said the motor control board (PN 8540540, also
PN W10163007) for the Whirlpool Duet Sport WFW8410SW washing machine
was not repairable. http://i.cubeupload.com/k1m0mV.jpg
They said it's not even useful for the $100 core charge for the
$165 so the price, they say, is $230 for a rebuilt board.
Sigh.
Oren
May 23, 2016, 1:53:03 PM5/23/16
to
new unit that meets her fancy.
Huckleberry
Tekkie®
May 23, 2016, 4:28:08 PM5/23/16
to
Oren posted for all of us...
I think the daughter should go too because she broke it and the $$$$
--
Tekkie
--
Tekkie
pf...@aol.com
May 24, 2016, 8:27:13 AM5/24/16
to
On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 4:28:08 PM UTC-4, Tekkie® wrote:
> >
> > Send the wife on a shopping spree to the local appliance store for a
> > new unit that meets her fancy.
> >
> > Huckleberry
>
> I think the daughter should go too because she broke it and the $$$$
>
Mpfffff.... Whirlpool is BOL stuff, the machine is 8 years old and even though it got light use, for such a thing to fail suggests that it was minimally designed in the first place. Replacing the board will cost more than the machine is worth, and go a substantial way towards a new machine.
> >
> > Send the wife on a shopping spree to the local appliance store for a
> > new unit that meets her fancy.
> >
> > Huckleberry
>
> I think the daughter should go too because she broke it and the $$$$
>
If there is a Sears Scratch-Dent outlet nearby, go there. Our 8 year old LG front-loader came from that source, cost was new-with-full-warranty just over $400 from the Delaware outlet (no sales tax), and does a minimum of 6 loads per week. Of course the rather large dent and a few smaller dings it has have NOTHING whatsoever to do with function and it lives in the basement anyway.
Danny DiAmico
May 26, 2016, 12:37:48 PM5/26/16
to
On Mon, 23 May 2016 10:52:56 -0700, Oren wrote:
> Send the wife on a shopping spree to the local appliance store for a
> new unit that meets her fancy.
The latest update is that the Circuit Board Medics tried to screw me
> Send the wife on a shopping spree to the local appliance store for a
> new unit that meets her fancy.
(IMHO) so I told them to send me back everything.
Two days later they call me up (to their credit, they called both
days but I didn't bother to pick up the phone), and changed their tune.
9
So, at the moment, they're gonna send me back my original CCU and a
rebuilt MCU for $165 (plus my original $$20 or so to ship it to them).
In the end, it was a waste of time and money to go to the Circuit Board
Medics because for $191 + about 10% tax I could have gotten a brand
new MCU board locally in 1 day.
Lesson learned.
But anyway, I'll let you know what happens when the board arrives and
I put it in the washing machine. (The women folk are on my case.)
Danny DiAmico
May 26, 2016, 12:42:12 PM5/26/16
to
On Mon, 23 May 2016 16:28:06 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:
> I think the daughter should go too because she broke it and the $$$$
Sister.
> I think the daughter should go too because she broke it and the $$$$
Anyway, after telling the Circuit Board Medics to just send me
everything back, they decided to change their pricing back to what
they had originally told me.
They tried to talk me into a 40 dollar shipping but I refused,
since I was not happy with them changing their prices on me.
To be fair, they think they didn't change their price. I did.
They originally told me that it's OK if the board is burnt, as
long as it didn't have 'water damage'. I offered to send them
a picture beforehand, but they said they didn't need that.
Then, when they got the board, they tried to tell me they
couldn't use the core board, and at that point, they wanted
to charge me an additional hundred dollars. That would have
made the rebuilt replacement MORE expensive than a new board
(which is $191 at the local appliance shop).
I told them to send me everything back, and then they called
me up and changed their story back to what it originally was.
We'll see how this turns out, but, I can't really recommend
them at this point. In hindsight, the right answer would have
been to just pick up a NEW board for about $200 locally instead
of their rebuild for $165 + $20 shipping.
Oren
May 26, 2016, 1:15:40 PM5/26/16
to
On Thu, 26 May 2016 16:37:45 -0000 (UTC), Danny DiAmico
<dannyd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>But anyway, I'll let you know what happens when the board arrives and
>I put it in the washing machine. (The women folk are on my case.)
Maybe I could give a lesson on 'women folk on my case'. No Honey Do
<dannyd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>But anyway, I'll let you know what happens when the board arrives and
>I put it in the washing machine. (The women folk are on my case.)
List, it's a "dead line list". I made it through Tuesday (LMAO).
Tekkie®
May 26, 2016, 4:02:12 PM5/26/16
to
Danny DiAmico posted for all of us...
I would not wash the new board. Place it where the old board was. I would
collect $5 for every complaint. If they don't like that then tell them to go
to the stream with their rocks.
--
Tekkie
collect $5 for every complaint. If they don't like that then tell them to go
to the stream with their rocks.
--
Tekkie
Danny DiAmico
May 28, 2016, 10:10:18 PM5/28/16
to
On Thu, 26 May 2016 10:15:34 -0700, Oren wrote:
> Maybe I could give a lesson on 'women folk on my case'. No Honey Do
> List, it's a "dead line list". I made it through Tuesday (LMAO).
Hi Oren,
> Maybe I could give a lesson on 'women folk on my case'. No Honey Do
> List, it's a "dead line list". I made it through Tuesday (LMAO).
The good news is that the rebuilt Whirlpool motor control board from
circuit board medics worked fine.
So all that matters now is the lesson learned for others.
Total cost was $165 + about $20 (I forget exactly how much shipping was)
and the turnaround time was atrocious but that's partly my fault since I
was unsure of how to proceed. Normal turnaround time should be four to
five days to get there, a day or two to test & rebuild, and then four or
five days to get back (it was from California to North Carolina and I
didn't pay the $40 for two-day shipping by Fedex).
A brand new board at a local appliance store would be $191 + about 10% tax
with a turnaround time of 1 day (let's double that, to two days or three
days to be safe).
Seems like a no brainer, in hindsight. The one thing is that the circuit
board medics did test the computer control board in addition to the motor
control board, so, in essence, we have to factor in that costs somewhere.
The DIAGNOSTIC lesson learned is pretty simple, but it's only something
that is learned from experience (which the circuit board medics did have).
If a Whirlpool duet Sport has an F28 (or F11 on Kenmore models), then
almost certainly it's the Motor Control Board, so, the FIRST THING you
should do for diagnostics is simply remove the back washer plate, remove
the lower brace, and remove the motor control board.
You *will* break every one of the four of five cheap plastic tie-wrap
butterfly anchors. I simply duct taped the new wires back in place but a
more elegant solution would have been to purchase a few of those anchor
clips.
Once you remove the motor control board, you will see black spots, which
is your confirmation of failure.
In the end, that is the simplest advice for an F28 (or F11) communications
error. The advice only works because the circuit board medics said an F28
communications error is 99% of the time the motor control board (or the
blue wires going to it fell off).
Danny DiAmico
May 28, 2016, 10:20:30 PM5/28/16
to
On Thu, 26 May 2016 16:02:12 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:
>> But anyway, I'll let you know what happens when the board arrives and I
>> put it in the washing machine. (The women folk are on my case.)
>
> I would not wash the new board. Place it where the old board was. I
> would collect $5 for every complaint. If they don't like that then tell
> them to go to the stream with their rocks.
I put the board in the washing machine, and it worked.
>> But anyway, I'll let you know what happens when the board arrives and I
>> put it in the washing machine. (The women folk are on my case.)
>
> I would not wash the new board. Place it where the old board was. I
> would collect $5 for every complaint. If they don't like that then tell
> them to go to the stream with their rocks.
Here is the summary for the next person.
1. A power outage can fry your washing machine.
2. If you get a Whirlpool F28 communications error (same as Kenmore F11
I'm told), then 99% of the time is is a fried Motor Control Board (I'm
told).
3. Remove the back plate of the washing machine & the lower brace to
expose the motor control board
4. Remove the upper cover of the washing machine to expose the main
computer board.
5. Look around. Blue wires are critical. So check the blue wires from the
CCU to the MCU. Otherwise, remove the motor control board and check for
burn marks.
If you see evidence of damage on the motor control board, just go buy a
new one for around $200 at a local appliance store. (Whirlpool factory
prices area about $320 and Ebay is as low as $50 but you have to be
confident of the supplier).
Tekkie®
May 30, 2016, 3:51:46 PM5/30/16
to
Danny DiAmico posted for all of us...
> I put the board in the washing machine, and it worked.
>
What kind of detergent did you use?
>
--
Tekkie
Danny DiAmico
Jun 1, 2016, 6:35:59 PM6/1/16
to
The rebuilt motor control board is still working great.
So, the solution when you have the F28 communications error is to check
the blue wires between the computer control unit and the motor control
unit and to check the motor control unit for black burnt spots.
So, the solution when you have the F28 communications error is to check
the blue wires between the computer control unit and the motor control
unit and to check the motor control unit for black burnt spots.
Diesel
Jun 22, 2016, 4:41:13 PM6/22/16
to
Danny DiAmico <dannyd...@yahoo.com> news:ngm06g$6r0$1
@news.mixmin.net Sun, 08 May 2016 00:10:57 GMT in alt.home.repair,
wrote:
> On Sat, 07 May 2016 15:14:48 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:
>
>> Everybody has their comfort level. It's the crap shoot of life.
>>
>> Isn't it time to collect money off your sister? Is she the one that
>> broke it? <g> Map the laundromats?
>
> I think the multiple power surges during the recent rain is what
> fried the MMU board.
Multiple surges, depending on duration and surge strength can take
their toll on any surge surpressor too. Including the panel install
style. The panel surge surpressor does offer some protection, but,
don't put all your eggs in one basket.
--
MID: <nb7u27$crn$1...@boaterdave.dont-email.me>
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400
@news.mixmin.net Sun, 08 May 2016 00:10:57 GMT in alt.home.repair,
wrote:
> On Sat, 07 May 2016 15:14:48 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:
>
>> Everybody has their comfort level. It's the crap shoot of life.
>>
>> Isn't it time to collect money off your sister? Is she the one that
>> broke it? <g> Map the laundromats?
>
> I think the multiple power surges during the recent rain is what
> fried the MMU board.
their toll on any surge surpressor too. Including the panel install
style. The panel surge surpressor does offer some protection, but,
don't put all your eggs in one basket.
--
MID: <nb7u27$crn$1...@boaterdave.dont-email.me>
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400
Kings
Jul 11, 2018, 12:44:05 PM7/11/18
to
replying to Danny DiAmico, Kings wrote:
Mine has the same problem. Whirlpool needs to do something about this mess.
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/fe
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/ff
Mine has the same problem. Whirlpool needs to do something about this mess.
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/fe
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/ff
John-Del
Jul 11, 2018, 1:22:50 PM7/11/18
to
Yeah, a ten year old washer breaks. Call the press.
What percentage of these fail? Even if 100% of them fail at the ten year mark, what's the problem? These days, 10 years of life from a major appliance is something to be lauded.
I have the same Duet Sport washer and it does a shit load of laundry, and other than an occasional need to remove coins, socks, or panties from the pump (accessible from the front), it's been no trouble.
What percentage of these fail? Even if 100% of them fail at the ten year mark, what's the problem? These days, 10 years of life from a major appliance is something to be lauded.
I have the same Duet Sport washer and it does a shit load of laundry, and other than an occasional need to remove coins, socks, or panties from the pump (accessible from the front), it's been no trouble.
0 new messages