How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

[Frank Baron]

How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

[pf...@aol.com]

Horatio Alger/Norman Spruance/John Harmon/Frank Bacon is BAAAAAAAAACK.

Please do not dignify his drivel with a response.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Wade Garrett]

Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

--
Make America great again? Hell, I'd be happy if you just made it America
again.
- @KelsowFarlander

[pf...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 11:38:26 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:

> Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
> dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

There is mounting - and there is "mounting".

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H.L. Mencken

[Meanie]

Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.

If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
be a reason it will fail.

[pf...@aol.com]

Imagine this scenario:

Frank/Horatio/Norman/John, our idiot in search of his very own village, using his BMW with his front-end work, now driving on four bald tires that he has repaired and installed with his Harbor Freight tools out on the road right beside the rest of us.

Don't engage with this jackass. With apologies to the hooved variety for the base libel.

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:36 -0600, dpb advised:

>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
>> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>

> All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and
> how bad the damage is...

Thank you for the information as some were on the last tread groove (see
below how we patched it with a home-made plug patch.

> None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in
> tread area.

Thank you for that advice because I wasn't sure at all how close you can
get to the sidewall for it to fail the patch test.

We patched this alloy-wheel 55-series tire where a flat-on-both-sides tiny
bolt (with no sharp edges whatsoever) had wedged itself into the last
groove, and eventually punctured the tire.
http://i.cubeupload.com/09PwHs.jpg

Here you see the tiny (now headless) bolt next to the puncture hole:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6F0CnI.jpg

To properly patch that hole, we reamed the hole with this hand tool:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sZ6qxo.jpg

Using that hand tool, we probed the hole slant (it went in straight):
http://i.cubeupload.com/UxYLNx.jpg

Then we grabbed this second hand tool & slobbered glue on the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/EMU9zy.jpg

This is the plug sticking up on the outside of the 55-series tire:
http://i.cubeupload.com/V1dCGA.jpg

To cut off the protruding plug, we failed trying the diagonal cutter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ra3Prp.jpg

We also failed with the flush dikes because the plug was too rubbery:
http://i.cubeupload.com/M2BHaA.jpg

We ended up slicing it off with a utility knife but we learned how to slice
the plug off more neatly when we cut off the plug protruding on the inside:
http://i.cubeupload.com/r0n5WI.jpg

The dremel tool metal blade cut off the plug flush with the inside wall:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QSBXAK.jpg

Then we buffed with a wire wheel, where we learned that it would be much
nicer to have a "ball" shaped wire wheel because of the angles involved in
buffing away the outside rubber to expose the virgin rubber to the
vulcanizing glue:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QNrRco.jpg

Here is the buffed result before applying the patch over the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/otho8w.jpg

After applying vulcanizing glue, we stitched down the patch:
http://i.cubeupload.com/BrkYl3.jpg

Where this is what the final patch looked like:
http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg

Any advice you can provide will be helpful as the whole point was to learn
by doing, where already I'd do it differently the next time (e.g., I'd use
the dremel tool on both the inside and outside and I would get a roundish
wire brush that fit the inside of a tire better.

[Frank]

Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.

[Meanie]

I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
locations.

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:

> Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
> dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.

Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
something that I *should* be able to do at home.

We should all be able to:
a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
b. Patch a tire at home
c. Balance a wheel at home

I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be
better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have).

Here I found that breaking the bottom bead on an alloy wheel 55-series tire
was tremendously easier than it was on the 75-series SUV steel-wheel tires
(but you notice how I positioned the purpose-built HF bead-breaking tool
with a board on one end and the HF tire changer on the other end):
http://i.cubeupload.com/ngg3X3.jpg

Then I learned to mark the position of the valve since we'd normally be
re-using these tires and we would want the balance to be the same as it was
before (at least as a starting point):
http://i.cubeupload.com/5Kl0Dy.jpg

Breaking the top bead was so easy that it doesn't need explanation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PouqLx.jpg

Likewise, levering off the top bead from the alloy wheel was easy peasy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CIiEKR.jpg

Levering off the bottom bead from the alloy wheel was also very easy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/477H02.jpg

Then, it was time to plug and patch the hole, which, in this case, was made
by a bolt that was NOT sharp!
http://i.cubeupload.com/jxxp46.jpg

The bolt may have wedged into the groove and slowly punctured the tire:

Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome
because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is
not going to be helpful).

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:

> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>
> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
> be a reason it will fail.

Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
How close can you get to the edge, and, why.

I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.

Is that correct?

BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug?
http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg

I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy):
http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg

And a bigger patch which was flatter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg

Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush?
http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg

It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this:
http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg

Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:

> I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
> patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
> sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
> locations.

I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both
in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.

As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel
belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that
the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts.
http://www.tirefailures.com/images/tire-tread-diagram.jpg

The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie:
http://www.tirefailures.com/images_vf/img/TireCutaway.jpg

From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks:
https://www.lesschwab.com/images/backcountry_radialtire_layers.jpg

From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the
patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem?

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank advised:

> Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
> tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
> wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.

Thanks Frank for explaining as I didn't realize until I just looked it up
that there are circumferential steel "belts" and then there are these
"radial" body plies.
http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/suspension/wheels/tires/beadairleak/tirecutaway.gif

If I look at these cutaway diagrams, it seems we can patch to the edge of
the steel belts, but not after that edge (where there is only the "body
plies". Is that right?
https://www.treaddepot.com/assets/images/content/content-atv-construction-1.png

[Frank]

That was my point.

[Meanie]

On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:
>
>> I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
>> patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
>> sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
>> locations.
>
> I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both
> in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.
>

You're correct, my apologies.

[Meanie]

On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:
>
>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>>
>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>> be a reason it will fail.
>
> Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
> How close can you get to the edge, and, why.
>

Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a
repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area.
My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires
in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and
because service shops will not or just to save a few buck.

Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they
differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive
brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls
than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also,
low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
higher sidewall tires.

> I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
> I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.

Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.

>
> Is that correct?
>
> BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg
>
> I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy):
> http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg
>
> And a bigger patch which was flatter:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg
>
> Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg
>
> It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg
>
> Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg
>

A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also
recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is
important to ensure that proper prep is performed.

In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need
to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside.
There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas,
a patch/plug is better.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007
if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside
out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out
from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes.
http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/5727864-24.jpg
You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some
straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the
area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush
with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen.
I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid
up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause
problems with tread squirm and tire integrety.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is
manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge"
on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a
non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge
of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture
Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder
of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of
the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt
area.

A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go -
even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to
our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding
tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.
>>
snipped

>In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need
>to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside.
>There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas,
>a patch/plug is better.

According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot
just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from
the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage. I'll
plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as
soon as possible.

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Frank Baron:

I don't trust those straight plugs. Only
the 'mushroom' plugs(flat on inside) for
me. Had too many 'cigarette butt'
plugs come out on me.

[Meanie]

I agree about the damage a tire can do

Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or
painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or
plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet
to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event. Not
saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I
won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in
place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and
warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk.

I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money
while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford
to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good
product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but
it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the
100% success rate thus far.

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:51:17 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen.
> I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid
> up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle.

That's good advice except it's not usable advice unless you actually think
the plug-and-then-patch repairs I made are "a disaster waiting to happen".

It's like saying "don't run with scissors", which is great advice, but
essentially not useful advice.

What I'm looking for is useful advice, particularly with respect to my
technique. I agree with you that a single-piece patch-plug is superior to
my two piece arrangement but other than that, what do you see "unsafe"
about my plug-and-then-patch method?

The whole point is to find out if this method is a safe patch.

To help you advise me, I provided plenty of pictures of the plug and then
patch which, I think, is a valid patch [except for the tread wear (which is
a separate issue unrelated to the patch itself)].

Here is what is underneath the patch:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg

Here is the final repair on the inside (using a big patch):
http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg

Here is the final repair on the inside (using a small patch):
http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg

Other than the treadwear, did you see anything unsafe in my patch
technique?

a. Location of patch
b. Patch materials
c. Patch technique

Or is it all safe?

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:18:30 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is
> manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge"
> on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a
> non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge
> of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture

Thanks for that detail that the edge of the steel belt is different than
the middle of the steel belt. That may be why I think I've heard tire
repair guys saying they can't patch within so many inches of the edge, even
if it's still in the "tread" area.

> Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder
> of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of
> the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt
> area.

Thank you for that detail because that's essentially why I asked the
question. So we're looking at an inch (to remember it easily) from the edge
of the tread on both sides.

> A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go -
> even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to
> our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding
> tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.

I have seen "alligators" on the road, mostly from truck tires, probably
from re-surfaced tires, probably on the inside tire of a dual-tire setup,
which must flap like a sonofabitch when they come off!

> According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot
> just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from
> the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage.

This industry (RMA?) recommendation makes sense, and I agree with your
statement that both a plug and a patch should be made and the inside of the
tire should be visibly inspected.

For one, someone could have driven on the tire such that the belts are
protruding from the inside. In this case, I didn't see such damage on the
five test tires, but it could have been there.

> I'll
> plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as
> soon as possible.

I agree with you that an external plug in an emergency is an expediency
that most of us would do. I'd even patch a sidewall, if that's what it took
to get off the road. (Dunno if that's even possible though.)

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie advised:

> Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
> left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4".

Thanks for the detail, as all the holes I patched were screws or bolts, so,
they're pretty small, and, as others said, all were within the "tread"
area.

> Also,
> low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
> higher sidewall tires.

That's interesting as I can infer from that the lower-profile tires have a
slightly greater area of patchability, all other things being equal.

> Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
> portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
> along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.

That's interesting that the patch can go to very edge of the tread.
I had previously thought it could only go in the "middle" of the tread.

> A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also
> recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is
> important to ensure that proper prep is performed.

I knew about patchplugs, but I didn't have any so I made my own patchplug
with a plug first, cut flush, and then a patch.

Seems to me, in the end, the kind of patch and then plug that I did should
work though, as they're essentially the same thing in the end, right?

> In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need
> to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside.

Thanks. I actually knew that (but you didn't know I knew that). I was
removing the tire anyway, so as to get experience with breaking the bead
and reseating the bead.

So I plugged it first from the outside, and then patched it from the
inside. Seems to me that should be good enough for government work, but I
don't know (which is why I ask).

> There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas,
> a patch/plug is better.

I agree a single-piece patch-plug is better than either a patch or a plug
alone. I suspect a two-piece patch-and-then-plug is still better than
either a patch or a plug alone.

Does that also make sense to you?

> http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007
> if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside
> out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out
> from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes.

That does seem like a far more elegant solution than the path-and-then-plug
that I came up with on my own.

> http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/5727864-24.jpg
> You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some
> straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the
> area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush
> with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem.

Thank you for that advice. I figured it had to be flush, but your argument
that it doesn't need to be flush as it may seal better not being flush and
that it will wear with the tire makes sense.

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:52:29 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause
> problems with tread squirm and tire integrety.

Hi Clare,

I patched five tires with the goopy string plugs, and then cut them flush
on both sides, and then put a patch on top of the plugs.

I know they sell a one-piece patch-plug, but that seemed like overkill for
my tests so I just wonder what you recommend for two-piece plugs if a
one-piece patch-plug isn't around.

Would you do it the way I did it, or differently?

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:25:31 -0500, Meanie advised:

> Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or
> painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or
> plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet
> to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event.

I realize you're talking to Clare, but I want to say I agree with you that
warnings such as "don't run with scissors" are great, but they're
essentially useless because nobody ever gets hurt while running with
scissors (so to speak).

Specifically, Clare told me that my patch is a "disaster waiting to
happen", which, other than the treadwear, I don't see where he gets that
from.

Sure, I didn't use a single-piece patchplug, but, my question is whether
anyone sees a *safety* issue with the way I did these tires?

a. Is the patch too large or too small?
b. Is the goopy plug a safety issue?
c. Is the location on the tire a safety issue.

Other than treadwear, I don't (yet) see any safety issues with my repairs.

> Not
> saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I
> won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in
> place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and
> warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk.

Again, I agree with you. It's like that warning on plastic bags not to
suffocate people with them. They're not useful for someone who is thinking
about what they're doing.

Which is what I'm trying to do here.

> I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money
> while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford
> to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good
> product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but
> it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the
> 100% success rate thus far.

In an emergency, you'll be glad you have those skills!
I'm trying to obtain those skills now, before the emergency too.

[Wade Garrett]

On 12/21/16 2:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:
>
>> Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
>> dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)
>
> That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.
>
> Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
> something that I *should* be able to do at home.
>
> We should all be able to:
> a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
> b. Patch a tire at home
> c. Balance a wheel at home
>
> I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be
> better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have).
>

>SNIP

>
> Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome
> because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is
> not going to be helpful).
>
>

Guess everyone needs a hobby ;-)

--
You can’t get rich in politics unless you’re a crook.
- President Harry Truman

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

a repaired Michelin X came apart on a friend's Rover 2000 sedan in
Zambia and it took the rear febser and wheelwell apart. The rear tire
in my brothers Dodge Aspenn (a Zeta 40M from UniRoyal - back in 1972)
lost it's belt at 70mph on the Burlington Ontario Skyway bridge and
did a lot of damage and almost killed him. I've seen tires with the
steel belt badly rusted and kicked over an inch to the side without
coming apart - but the tire wagged the car like a dog's tail..
When you do something dangerous it usually DOES work just fine - until
it doesn't.
That said, the warnings ARE there to protect the manufacturer - and
are followed by concientious businesses to keep their liability
insurance rates low enough to be able to stay in business.

Repairing your own tires is your own risk, primarily.

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:10:12 -0000, Frank Baron <frank...@example.com> wrote:

> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>
> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>
> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
> to the sidewall.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>
> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

They're TYRES. TIRES means run out of energy. Learn basic English.

--
The most effective way to remember your wife's birthday is to forget it once.

[rbowman]

On 12/21/2016 12:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:
>
>> > Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
>> > dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)
> That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.
>
> Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
> something that I *should* be able to do at home.
>
> We should all be able to:
> a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
> b. Patch a tire at home
> c. Balance a wheel at home

Next time the bike needs new shoes I'll give you a shout. Then there's
patching the tire in the woods or in some random parking lot. I don't
balance them. With knobbies, how would you ever know?

[rbowman]

On 12/21/2016 06:57 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
> They're TYRES. TIRES means run out of energy. Learn basic English.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/for-the-first-time-in-nearly-150-years-indias-economy-surpasses-that-of-united-kingdom/articleshow/56064690.cms

How does it feel to be trailing India? Stick a fork in the UK and its
quirky spellings; it's done.

[Steve W.]

Frank Baron wrote:
> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>
> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>
> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
> to the sidewall.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>
> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

None of those are sidewall related. I will plug/patch a tire with
usable tread right to the edge of the tread mold. You are still in
multiple ply area there.

I won't patch a sidewall on a passenger vehicle but on something like a
tractor, loader or skidder I don't have a problem using a chunk of live
rubber and vulcanizing it in, I've even stitched some together and
patched them. Toss a tube in to hold the air if needed.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

For practice on techniques the cheap string plugs are good. They will
even work on a good repair as long as you prep the hole correctly.

I have a variety of different repair materials depending on the tire and
it's intended use.

A mushroom plug gun that works great as a quick plug, and they get used
a lot on lawn, ATV and golf cart tires.
http://www.stopngo.com/

Good string plugs -
http://safetyseal.com/index.php

combo patch/plugs and boots, plus various other supplies.
http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/

--
Steve W.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 00:55:50 -0500, Steve W. advised:

> None of those are sidewall related. I will plug/patch a tire with
> usable tread right to the edge of the tread mold. You are still in
> multiple ply area there.

Thanks Steve.
I didn't know it at first but now I know that you want the patch/plug to be
in the area within the steel circumferential belts.

Apparently the edge of the belts is a DMZ of sorts though ...

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 20:36:19 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Repairing your own tires is your own risk, primarily.

And don't run with scissors in your hand!

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 01:11:13 -0500, Steve W. advised:

> For practice on techniques the cheap string plugs are good. They will
> even work on a good repair as long as you prep the hole correctly.

That's good advice.

As for "prepping" the hole, all I know is you're supposed to "ream" it with
the auger provided in the kit.

That auger worked for larger (bolt) holes but small nail holes were too
small. I needed *power*.

I'm wondering if I can slice off the auger and put it in a drill.
Anyone done that?

> I have a variety of different repair materials depending on the tire and
> it's intended use.

My home patch kit contains:
a. T-handled auger & insertion tools
b. Grease pen (white)
c. Pliers (needlenose)
d. Patches
e. Vulcanizing cement
f. scraper (wire brush works faster)

What else is needed? (ah, I see the answer below)

> A mushroom plug gun that works great as a quick plug, and they get used
> a lot on lawn, ATV and golf cart tires.
> http://www.stopngo.com/

Ah, that would be a nice tool to have!
It's fast - but for home use, we don't really need fast.

I wonder if it fits the RMA (rubber manufacturers association) guidelines
which seem to require a patch and a plug whereas this is mostly just a
plug.

> Good string plugs -
> http://safetyseal.com/index.php

Interesting that their string plugs are nylon yarn, with 250% rubber!

> combo patch/plugs and boots, plus various other supplies.
> http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/

That's a very nice site for tools and supplies!

I love the fact the standard (we can assume that's P type?) wheel weights
are inexpensive, at about $7 for a box of 25 which is about 30 cents each.
http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/coated-steel-fe-weights-1-1-1-1

A box of 50 1-1/2 inch 0.453-inch diameter rubber valve stems is $16 which
is about 30 to 35 cents each.
http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/vs-414

It's interesting they have "euro style" and "usa style" radial tubeless
tire patches (what's the difference? Is it just metric sizes?) at
http://www.blackjacktirerepair.com/patches-boots

I *love* that site as it seems to have all that we need (I am looking for a
better wire buffing brush, for example).

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 20:28:28 -0700, rbowman advised:

> Next time the bike needs new shoes I'll give you a shout. Then there's
> patching the tire in the woods or in some random parking lot. I don't
> balance them. With knobbies, how would you ever know?

If this group were named ladies.cookies_and_crochet, then the question
wouldn't be apropos of how to decide when a tire is repairable.

[pf...@aol.com]

If I were the only driver on the planet, and never drove closer than 500 meters from another living creature, this discussion might be relevant at the level of detail incurred so far.

But, I drive on crowded roads with other drivers who have lives of their own. And the occasional school bus with a few dozen children on board.
And the occasional fluids-tanker or propane tanker with flammable and explosive materials on board.

So, here we are on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Speed Limit: 70). And my left-front tire shatters on a curve. I start spinning into the other lane and waffle a school bus into a gasoline tanker. *POOF*.

Turns out that the tire-removal, patching, balancing and re-installation were all mine, using Harbor Freight tools based on advice received in this venue.

What is my ethical position? Pretty wretched in any case, and probably criminal.

It is very clear, at least to me, that this idiot in search of a village has the ethics of a politician, the morals of an evangelical preacher and the wisdom of a common housefly. And all this blather is about avoiding 'bad news' and having to take responsibility for his actions. Why would I go to a mechanic to align my vehicle, patch a tire or do any number of other fairly simple tasks? Because that mechanic is trained to see things that I do not. That mechanic (and ours are very, very good) will tell me what I need to know whether I like it or not. And my mechanic DOES use the right tool for the job, does not accept "good enough" and more.

Do not engage with this creature. It will ask and ask and ask the same question in many different ways and in many different venues until it gets the answer it wants. And then it will take action based on that answer and take those results out on the road with other innocents, hang the consequences. I hope, when Horatio/Norman/John/frank is finally awarded his richly deserved, far-to-long delayed Darwin Award, it is a solo action and does not involve group participation.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[FromTheRafters]

It happens that Wade Garrett formulated :

> On 12/21/16 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
>> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>>
>> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
>> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>>
>> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
>> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
>> to the sidewall.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>>
>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
>> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>>
>

> Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
> dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

Someone told him he would be re-tiring soon, so he wants to learn how
from the experts here. Someone should explain to him what was really
meant.

[AMuzi]

Oh, 63 million Brits equal the output of a billion-plus
Indians? Wake me if anything exciting turns up.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 06:41:59 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:

>> What else is needed? (ah, I see the answer below)
>

> A sign for the yard that says Frank's Tire Repairs?

Actually, I think I have all the necessary tools but this one:
http://www.wdshopsupply.com/tire_repair_tools.htm

Having used the hand scraper and the wire brush, I see that it would be a
*lot* easier to use these "buffing cones" because the shape of those cones
would better conform to the shape of the inside of the wheel.

So the advice I give to anyone reading this thread in the future to assist
them in doing the repair is to get one of those buffing cones.

You won't find them in a typical hardware store though, I don't think (at
least I didn't).

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 06:41:59 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:

>> I'm wondering if I can slice off the auger and put it in a drill.
>> Anyone done that?
>

> Coming from a guy that has no issues breaking the beads on tires
> and changing them at home, I find that rather odd. I've used
> the basic reamer that
> comes in the $6 plug kits to work on nail holes. It takes some
> force to work it in, but I didn't have any real trouble. And
> how many times do you even do this? I've done about three in
> the last 15 years.

I used to get about 1 flat a year, but now I'm getting about 3 flats a
year, but I live where there is a lot of construction activity so I think
nails are bouncing off of trucks.

It wasn't hard to round up friends with flats, so I'm not the only one
here. We canvassed the neighborhood (we're a tightly knit group) and found
one sedan with two nails embedded in the tires (that neighbor is ordering
tires as we speak and we'll do hers, if she wants us to).

As for the reamer, I know they sell a special carbide bit for that purpose.

Apparently the reason for the reaming is to "smooth" the sharp edges of the
steel treads.

Googling, the 3/16 & 7/32 carbide bits are pricey for what they are:
$42
http://www.bowessealfast.com/p-954-316-carbide-cutter-bowes-tt-37345.aspx
$40 http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/111595283123
$40 http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/161376268450
$23 https://www.jbtoolsales.com/shark-bt15-carbide-burr/

Regarding the force, I am surprised you have the strength to force a
relatively blunt almost 1/4-inch tool into a hole in thick rubber that is
the size of a thin nail.

I have tried so I know I don't have that strength.
Not without power tools anyway.

Having tried it, I doubt you have the strength either, but I'll let the
others chime in because maybe it's possible - but - certainly it takes
extreme strength to do it where a power tool would make it easier.

What do you have against using a power tool anyway?

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 08:32:45 -0500, FromTheRafters advised:

> Someone told him he would be re-tiring soon, so he wants to learn how
> from the experts here. Someone should explain to him what was really
> meant.

That's actually a good one.
I'm a court officer, so, I have two more years before I can 're tire'.

But I do appreciate the joke.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:47:29 -0800 (PST), pf...@aol.com advised:

> If I were the only driver on the planet, and never drove closer than
> 500 meters from another living creature, this discussion might be
> relevant at the level of detail incurred so far.

The reason men here can *fix* things, is the same reason that men can build
airplanes and rockets and fly around the earth and to the moon.

The simple reason is that men who can "do stuff" pay attention to *detail*.
Specifically, without paying attention to detail, nobody can build or fix
anything.

Specifically, detail is required to *understand* how things work, where
those who can't handle such detail are doomed in many endeavors in life.

Worse, men (like you appear to be) who can't handle detail, are doomed to
make completely incorrect conclusions, since all you see is the top layer
of everything which is complex.

Since you only see the top layer, you see nothing of the detail underneath,
dooming you to ascribe causes to things which are just not the case.

In fact, you're forever doomed to make incorrect conclusions, simply
because you (apparently) lack the ability to handle detail (which is
required for comprehensive thought processes).

> But, I drive on crowded roads with other drivers who have lives of
> their own. And the occasional school bus with a few dozen children on
> board. And the occasional fluids-tanker or propane tanker with flammable
> and explosive materials on board.

Um. OK. So do we all.

While you don't seem to be able to handle detail, you do seem to handle
fear very well.

The only reason you added that otherwise meaningless statement above was to
increase the fear, since *emotion* is what you feel given you are
apparently unable to comprehend detail.

What you're doing with that statement above is what all politicians do when
they want the masses to be mislead. You are working on pure emotion, hoping
your audience is, like you, unable to comprehend your lack of detail.

> So, here we are on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (Speed Limit: 70).
> And my left-front tire shatters on a curve. I start spinning into the
> other lane and waffle a school bus into a gasoline tanker. *POOF*.

There should be an analysis upcoming of what caused the tire to "shatter".
In that analysis, I would expect detail from most men, but not from you.
From you, all I expect is upcoming emotion.

> Turns out that the tire-removal, patching, balancing and re-installation
> were all mine, using Harbor Freight tools based on advice received in this
> venue.

Your complete and utter lack of detail makes your entire argument moot.
What exactly caused your left-front tire to "shatter"?

You don't have a clue.
Therefore, all you have is emotion.

> What is my ethical position?
> Pretty wretched in any case, and probably criminal.

Again, you'd make a great politician because you lack detail and yet, you
ply emotion instead.

>
> It is very clear, at least to me, that this idiot in search of a village
> has the ethics of a politician, the morals of an evangelical preacher
> and the wisdom of a common housefly.

What I find amazing is that I have been responding to you, in line, where I
have ascribed the ethics and tactics of a politician to YOU.

Me?
I provide far too much detail and truth to be a politician.

> And all this blather is about avoiding 'bad news' and having to take
> responsibility for his actions. Why would I go to a mechanic to align
> my vehicle, patch a tire or do any number of other fairly simple tasks?

That you use the word "blather" when detail was provided shows *exactly*
how your mind works.

Engineering detail is "blather" to you.
Hence, your only input is purely emotional.

> Because that mechanic is trained to see things that I do not.

Thank you for stating for yourself, exactly what I have surmised from your
very words, which is that you are incapable of handling detail.

You should recognize this inability to handle detail for what it is, which
is a disability I don't have. I have *plenty* of other disabilities mind
you (e.g., I go far too deeply into detail for my own good), so it is
cathartic for you to recognize that most of your technical conclusions will
be wrong, since you are operating on sheer emotion.

As long as you know your limitations, you won't be a danger to society.

I know mine - which is that I spend far too much time and energy on things
that are merely interesting in their myriad details.

This newsgroup seems to have *plenty* of political posts (for some odd
reason), so you should be happy here, as am I as there are few, but
existent engineering style posts also.

> That mechanic (and ours are very, very good) will tell me what I need
> to know whether I like it or not.

You are incapable of making that assessment because you lack the details
that I have which is critical in assessing whether a mechanic actually
performs the job correctly.

All you're operating on is intuitive emotion.
I'm pretty sure you're a Myers-Briggs highly intuitive person.

That's fine - but you're also a highly Judgmental person, which, put
together, makes all your *decisions* dangerous (but that's a topic for
alt.psychology newsgroups).

> And my mechanic DOES use the right tool for the job, does not accept
> "good enough" and more.

Again, you operate on pure intuitive emotion, sans any valid facts.
That means your opinions are based on absolutely nothing concrete.
At best, you'll be 50% correct, although you'll be convinced that you are
100% correct since you are the one assessing yourself.

> Do not engage with this creature.

You do realize that you're operating, like a girl, on pure emotion, right?
This is a thread about how to properly repair a tire.
This newsgroup is apropos for such a discussion.

Your discussion is really apropos for a newsgroup titled more akin to
men.who.wear.ladies.pink.panties or some such rot. :)

> [real men] will ask and ask [for detail] in many different ways

Exactly. Detail scares you.

You really may be one who is better off in the psychology groups since you
seem to be *afraid* of detail, such that anyone who delves into detail
scares you so much that you actually fall to the depths of depravity to
stoop so low as to warn others that people may ask for detail on the
automobile and home and science repair newsgroups.

Your use of "it" shows your depravity indeed.
Therefore I discount you out of hand, for utter lack of detail.

You're the same kind of Myers-Briggs person who is highly intuitive and
highly judgemental, who actually thinks cell phones cause accidents
(without a shred of detailed reliable proof backing up your claims).

[pf...@aol.com]

On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 1:47:42 PM UTC-5, Frank Baron wrote:

> You're the same kind of Myers-Briggs person who is highly intuitive and
> highly judgemental, who actually thinks cell phones cause accidents
> (without a shred of detailed reliable proof backing up your claims).

Cell phones do not cause accidents. Fully agreed.
Guns do not kill people. Absolutely.

Idiot operators of both are the problem. Not the objects themselves.

Real Men are 100% responsible for their actions, and do not create risks for others on a whim or out of stubborn self-righteousness.

Real Men understand that there are things that require a level of care and expertise that a tool from Harbor Freight and advice from the internet (on an electronics group, no less) do not convey.

http://stoptextsstopwrecks.org/tagged/facts?gclid=Cj0KEQiAkO7CBRDeqJ_ahuiPrtEBEiQAbYupJRhCIloLHDsunoNXS2iCqh6_GpuOBq98Wcgt1bm8ecMaAieL8P8HAQ

And as to distracted driving, you are flat out wrong.

I post over my real name and location. You do not. What are you (presumably a Real Man) afraid of?

[pf...@aol.com]

>>You're the same kind of Myers-Briggs person who is highly intuitive and
highly judgemental, who actually thinks cell phones cause accidents
(without a shred of detailed reliable proof backing up your claims). <<

https://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/cause-of-accident/cell-phone/cell-phone-statistics.html

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/distracted_driving/

http://safety.trw.com/texting-while-driving-now-leading-cause-of-us-teen-deaths/0710/

I expect you are one of those Real Men who believes that there is no such thing as global warming as there is no absolute scientific proof - that satisfies your Manliness.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H.l. Mencken

[et...@whidbey.com]

That quote from Menken is certainly apt. Years ago I read what he had
to say about Chiropractic. Hilarious. Gotta find that book again.
Eric

[Ed Pawlowski]

> On 12/21/2016 12:15 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:
>>
>>> > Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
>>> > dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)
>> That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.
>>
>> Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
>> something that I *should* be able to do at home.
>>
>> We should all be able to:
>> a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
>> b. Patch a tire at home
>> c. Balance a wheel at home

I can't do that and have no desire to do so. In the past 20 years I can
think of three tires needing repair. My car came with roadside service
so I called the number and a guy comes and changes the tire for me. In
two cases, the tire was not repairable in the third, i drove it to a shop.

Economics is also a factor. The cost of the seup is much more than I
spent in tire repairs and that even included what I pay when buying new
tires.

If cars are your hobby, it may be OK. For the average driver, it is
silly.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:37:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:

> I don't think the issue ever was that cell phones cause accidents.
> The issue was that people *using* handheld cell phones while driving have
> accidents at a rate far higher than other drivers because they
> are distracted.

I understand you completely.
You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

I think I'm telling you something you don't already seem to know though.

Everyone, including me, would *intuitively* say the same thing.
I can't disagree with the intuition.

I have intuition myself.

The difference between me and you is that I don't *trust* my intuition as
much as you seem to trust your intuition (and certainly, neither of us
trusts our intuition as much as pfjw trusts his intuition).

So what do I do that is different from you?
Simple.

I check my facts.

That's it.
I simply intuit (like you do); but I double check the facts.

Most people don't.
They can't handle the detail involved.

My intuition says that a cat stuck in a tree won't come down without the
fire department or some other rescue effort. But it's just not true when
you look at the facts.

My intuition says that a mountain lion in the woods would attack a human it
sees, but the facts show extremely few attacks. So intuition is trumped by
facts (for the most part, since some attacks do occur but not as many as
you would intuit).

My intuition says that the sun revolves around the earth, and if someone
didn't tell me otherwise, I'd still believe my intuition. But facts always
trump intuition.

My intuition says that appeasement in politics should work, but facts show
that appeasement doesn't seem to work on most dictators; it just encourages
them.

Intuition that is not supported by facts is just pure speculation.

For example, pfjw, who clearly is a highly-intuitive highly-judgmental
person (in Myers-Brigg's terms), feels, intuitively, that my repairs are
unsafe.

Does he supply a single fact to support his safety claims?
Not one.

Can anything he says be believed?
Probably not.

Does *he* firmly believe everything he says?
Almost certainly he does.

Highly intuitive highly judgmental people are dangerous that way, if they
ever have power. They make decisions that they think are correct but which
are not supported by any facts.

> And I think that is a valid issue. I believe there
> are other studies that even using a hands-free cell phone leads to
> significantly higher accident rates.

I can show you an arbitrary non-real-world study that proves almost
anything that I want to prove, simply by limiting the variables in the
study, so, as you already know, we'd have to look at each study you claim
to prove your point to see what its limitations are.

If I set my mind to it, I can probably prove, for example, that cancer is
caused by almost anything I want to prove is carcinogenic.

However, the double check of the study is the real world.

In the real world, nobody on this planet has ever been able to prove any
correlation in the accident statistics overall that can be atributd to
cellphone use while driving.

In fact, since the accident rate is steadily decreasing in all states, with
or without enforcement of cellphone laws, the opposite may actually be true
(but I won't go that far).

In summary, you and I (and everyone else) would *intuitively* feel that
cellphones are an added distraction which should cause added accidents; but
the facts show otherwise.

Why is that?
Most morons posit a mysterious counteracting force, which is possible, but
they never provide any proof of this mysterious force, so, it's not
probable.

What's most likely, IMHO, is the simple model that says distractions while
driving abound. There are literally thousands of distractions in any daily
drive. Thousands upon thousands.

So, my hypothesis, which fits the model that accidents are just not
occurring due to cellphone use, is that adding one more distraction to an
already long list of distractions only adversely affects the bottom
percentiles of drivers - who - the fact seem to show - would have
distracted driving accidents no matter what.

While that model isn't proven by me, it fits the facts.
Your model doesn't fit the facts.

How do you reconcile that your model does not fit the facts?
(Hint: That will take intelligence & attention to detail, but not pure
intuitive judgemental emotion.)

[pf...@aol.com]

Never let facts get in the way of closely held beliefs. Hence the reference to "the morals of an evangelical preacher".

The facts are that cell phones contribute to distracted driving. Even one (1) incident is enough. That my links - irrefutable proof - do not fit your closely held beliefs is not my problem. It is certainly yours, and threatens to be that of others as well as you wreak your havoc on innocents.

I post over my real name and location. You do not. What are you afraid of? Clearly something, as REAL MEN have nothing to hide and are right up front.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 17:27:44 -0500, Ed Pawlowski advised:

> I can't do that and have no desire to do so.

I completely understand your sentiment.
I had the same sentiment earlier in my life.

Over time, it frustrated me to watch others perform tire changes
incorrectly.

Those repeatedly incorrect tire changes were what prompted me to do it
myself.

Plus I like learning.

> In the past 20 years I can
> think of three tires needing repair.

Wow. I seem to have at least one a year, and sometimes more (lately).

I canvassed the neighborhood, and we found one sedan with two punctures on
the same side of the vehicle (she's buying new tires as we speak so we may
repair hers for practice when they're dismounted at the shop and brought
home).

If flats were as uncommon as you seem to feel they may be, then why hasn't
the spare tire gone the way of the dashboard oil pressure gage?

> My car came with roadside service
> so I called the number and a guy comes and changes the tire for me.

My wife has AAA. It makes her feel safe.
Truth is, if she has a problem, she calls me.
If I need the car towed home, where I have better tools, I call AAA.

So, we're in agreement. AAA is wonderful for towing.
I'm sure they're great for running out of gas.
And, perhaps for opening locked car doors (if possible nowadays).

I don't know any guy who would call someone else for something as simple as
changing a tire though. It almost takes longer to make the call to AAA than
it does to change the tire yourself. Even if it didn't, you'll be waiting
for the truck to arrive far longer than it takes to change the tire.

How long does it take you to change a tire anyway?

> In
> two cases, the tire was not repairable in the third, i drove it to a shop.

Yup. All the tires I fixed were not repairable due to the lack of tread.
Had the owners driven on the tires, the belts would be showing on the
inside, and hence they would not have been repairable.
Had the holes been at the edge of the steel belts, again, they would not
have been repairable.
Had the holes been larger than a quarter inch, they would not have been
repairable.

However, except for treadwear, the tires I worked on were repairable, which
was the main question after all.

> Economics is also a factor. The cost of the seup is much more than I
> spent in tire repairs and that even included what I pay when buying new
> tires.

We already showed that out here, the cheapest shop is about $20 to $25 per
tire, so, that's $80 to $100 for a mount and balance. I'm sure a tire
repair is along the same lines of cost.

I've raised my tool estimate from $200 to $250 because I'm adding the cost
of the carbide reamer, the cone buffer, and an assortment of weights, in
addition to the separate stand-alone bead breaker.

So, using round easy numbers, at $25 per tire, it will take 10 tires to
recoup the investment, which we can double to 20 tires for a safe margin on
the math.

At an average of 4 tires every two years plus one flat every two years, for
a two-car family, that's a replacement or repair of 5 tires a year (which
is pretty much fitting my use model).

So it will take two to four years to recoup the investment in tools.

I have lots of tools that recouped their cost in the first use, and others
which took five or more years, so, that's just about in the range of
expected return on investment.

> If cars are your hobby, it may be OK.
> For the average driver, it is silly.

Is the average homeowner on alt.home.repair, or the average car driver on
rec.autos.tech?

I would hope all of you are a cut above average.
I know I am.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 00:55:50 -0500, Steve W. advised:

> I won't patch a sidewall on a passenger vehicle but on something like a
> tractor, loader or skidder I don't have a problem using a chunk of live
> rubber and vulcanizing it in, I've even stitched some together and
> patched them. Toss a tube in to hold the air if needed.

I thought nobody patched sidewalls, but this article says it's pretty
common to cut out a section of sidewall and to vulcanize rubber to patch
them in truck tire carcasses.

Knowing what not to repair
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/article/311921/knowing-what-not-to-repair
"injuries in the crown area that are larger than 3/8 of an inch as well as
those located in the shoulder and sidewall must receive a section repair
that requires additional time, tools and equipment not typically found in
the average commercial tire dealership. Section repairs are most commonly
associated with retread plants where the technicians are trained to use
special tools to remove the damage and fill the void with raw rubber so it
can be cured in a press or chamber. A large reinforced repair unit is also
installed on the innerliner of the tire and the tread design is regrooved
after the raw rubber has cured."

An interesting sidelight in that article is this quote about carbide bits:
"You?ll never find the words ?hand-reamer? or ?drill bit? in any credible
tire repair resource. A carbide cutter is specially designed to cut the
damaged steel belt and body cables flush with the surrounding rubber. This
stabilizes the area so the void can be filled with a cured rubber insert"

So the three tools I will get are the following:
1. Carbide bit (which cuts the steel belt and body cables flush)
2. Cone grinder bit (which has a better shape than a wire brush)
3. Flexible knife (which is better than the dremel disc cutter)

I'm learning as I analyze all the steps.
Some day I will teach others, perhaps at the adult schools nearby.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/22/2016 8:29 PM, Frank Baron wrote:

>> In the past 20 years I can
>> think of three tires needing repair.
>
> Wow. I seem to have at least one a year, and sometimes more (lately).

I drive about 22,000 miles a year and the worst case is to add some air
a couple of times. Present car has 25,000 miles and for the first time
I had to put air in one when the TPM went of when it was 7 degrees one
morning.

>
> If flats were as uncommon as you seem to feel they may be, then why hasn't
> the spare tire gone the way of the dashboard oil pressure gage?

Ah, it pretty much has. Many cars have a can of air now.

> I don't know any guy who would call someone else for something as simple as
> changing a tire though. It almost takes longer to make the call to AAA than
> it does to change the tire yourself. Even if it didn't, you'll be waiting
> for the truck to arrive far longer than it takes to change the tire.

It was dark, about 35 degrees and raining. Took the guy about a half
hout to show up and do the change. Meantime I shopped in Home Depot.

The first time was a dozen years ago. I ran over a body bolt and it
made a big hole in the sidewall. Car was about two months old. I took
the other car to work. Dealer came over, took the tire off and mounted
a new one, put it back. No idea how long it took them but I lost no
time. Had to pay for the tire, of course.

When I was a teenager driving a '53 Merc with either used tire or
recaps, I changed many tires. Found a better way.
>

[Vic Smith]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 01:29:43 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 17:27:44 -0500, Ed Pawlowski advised:
>

snip

>
>> In the past 20 years I can
>> think of three tires needing repair.
>
>Wow. I seem to have at least one a year, and sometimes more (lately).
>
>I canvassed the neighborhood, and we found one sedan with two punctures on
>the same side of the vehicle (she's buying new tires as we speak so we may
>repair hers for practice when they're dismounted at the shop and brought
>home).
>
>If flats were as uncommon as you seem to feel they may be, then why hasn't
>the spare tire gone the way of the dashboard oil pressure gage?
>

Well, since they've gone to gone to those mini-spares, I've never had
to use one. I have seen them used, but that's pretty rare.
It depends on where you live somewhat, and luck. I used to pick up
more nail/screw punctures when I lived in Chicago 20 years ago.
I plugged my last tire about 10-12 years ago. Drove into Just Tires
with a slow leaker about 8 years ago and they fixed a nailed tire.
Think it was 15 bucks then.
Over the years I've plugged about 8 tires on the rim. A few times on
the road. Every time it was a permanent fix.
But I used quality plug kits.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

In 44 years I've had 5 tires go flat "on the road" 3 of those on one
trip due to faulty valve stems (on the PT Cruiser on PEI), 1 due to a
cinder in the black hills of the Dakotas at -40 on the '69 dart, and
one on a sunday afternoon on the '63 Valiant (with no bumpers so I had
to jack it by the trunk lid.) I've had a few go flat on the driveway
that could be aired up and driven to the shop.
I've never had one damaged to the point it was not repairable due to
running flat. Both of the ones that failed flat on the road were down
low enough on tread that I ended up replacing the full set shortly
later.
I'm a former auto mechanic and I won't "patch" a tire in the field
unless I have to.
I patched a lot as a kid on the farm (tube type on wagons) and bikes,
lawn tractors etc., and a LOT in the shop as a mechanic.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:00:44 -0600, Vic Smith advised:

> Well, since they've gone to gone to those mini-spares, I've never had
> to use one. I have seen them used, but that's pretty rare.

As I recall, I drove a rental with the mini spare all across Arizona. I
must have put 1,000 miles on the thing, as it was bald by the time I
returned it to Hertz.

> It depends on where you live somewhat, and luck. I used to pick up
> more nail/screw punctures when I lived in Chicago 20 years ago.

I get a nail once a year. I have 5 tires in my possession right now, with
nails or screws in them. It's pretty common out here.

The one bolt that was flat should have been caught early as it seems to
have wedged in the tread and slowly worked its way through. An inspection
might have caught that ahead of time.

> I plugged my last tire about 10-12 years ago. Drove into Just Tires
> with a slow leaker about 8 years ago and they fixed a nailed tire.
> Think it was 15 bucks then.

As I recall, plugging a tire costs about as much as mounting and balancing,
so, out here, that's $20 to $25 at the least. For the price of the plug
tools, I can do it myself, since it doesn't take a brain surgeon to learn
how to plug a tire.

You don't even have to balance afterward, if you mark where it came off and
put it back the same way.

> Over the years I've plugged about 8 tires on the rim. A few times on
> the road. Every time it was a permanent fix.
> But I used quality plug kits.

I bought two new external plug kits but I didn't want to open them since
one is in the trunk of my car and the other in the wife's car. Once you
open the glue, it's gone for example.

So I used an old plug kit for the 5 practice tires, Worked well enough to
get the idea. Now that I've done it, I realize what tools would have made
it easier and/or better.

The three tools I really want to get that will make the job better are:
a. 3/16ths inch carbide bit
b. Cone buffing wheel
c. Flexible knife
http://i.cubeupload.com/3G9xsg.jpg

So I've upped the tool-cost from $200 to $250 (give or take) for:
1. Breaking the bead
2. Mounting and dismounting the tire
3. Repairing the tire with a plug and patch
4. Balancing the wheel and tire assembly

I feel everyone who wants to should be able to do this at home, and the
tools will take from two to four years to pay for themselves.

The knowledge learned lasts forever (or until Altzheimers kicks in).

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 23:14:20 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> In 44 years I've had 5 tires go flat "on the road" 3 of those on one
> trip due to faulty valve stems (on the PT Cruiser on PEI), 1 due to a
> cinder in the black hills of the Dakotas at -40 on the '69 dart, and
> one on a sunday afternoon on the '63 Valiant (with no bumpers so I had
> to jack it by the trunk lid.) I've had a few go flat on the driveway
> that could be aired up and driven to the shop.

Most of my flats have been slow leaks which gave me time to air them up and
get home, once they were noticed.

I almost never drive highway nowadays, so, my 15K miles is on side roads,
where there is some construction. I average something like 1 flat a year,
sometimes more, sometimes less.

Anyway, they wouldn't put spares in cars if flats didn't happen.

> I've never had one damaged to the point it was not repairable due to
> running flat. Both of the ones that failed flat on the road were down
> low enough on tread that I ended up replacing the full set shortly
> later.

I did drive with a very low tire for about a mile. The tire was filled with
fluffy rubber shavings, and the belts inside were showing. So it was
stupid, in hindsight, to run them when they were flat.

> I'm a former auto mechanic and I won't "patch" a tire in the field
> unless I have to.

Depends on what you call the field.
If I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere, it's getting an external plug if,
for whatever reason, the spare doesn't cut the mustard.

> I patched a lot as a kid on the farm (tube type on wagons) and bikes,
> lawn tractors etc., and a LOT in the shop as a mechanic.

Yeah. I replaced my first bicycle tire using a screwdriver, and holed the
tube so many times I had to buy a new one. Kids learn by doing. So do
adults.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:13:52 -0500, Ed Pawlowski advised:

>> Wow. I seem to have at least one a year, and sometimes more (lately).
>
> I drive about 22,000 miles a year and the worst case is to add some air
> a couple of times. Present car has 25,000 miles and for the first time
> I had to put air in one when the TPM went of when it was 7 degrees one
> morning.

I don't have TPMS and I only drive around 12 to 15k per year, but I get
about 1 flat a year, on average and my tires last about two years on
average.

> Ah, it pretty much has. Many cars have a can of air now.

Is that right?
I have never seen a car that didn't come with a spare tire, although some
come with cheap donuts instead of a real spare. Mine are 15 years old at
the very least, so all mine have real spares.

> It was dark, about 35 degrees and raining. Took the guy about a half
> hout to show up and do the change. Meantime I shopped in Home Depot.

Well, if you're off the highway, that's a different story 'cuz you can rest
at a Starbucks; but if you're on the highway, then it's quicker to change
the tire than it is to wait for AAA to change the tire.

Safety is a factor though, so, being towed off the highway to change the
tire could be a factor though. I think, in California, towing off the
highway is free, paid for by your taxes (I have to check that to be sure).

> The first time was a dozen years ago. I ran over a body bolt and it
> made a big hole in the sidewall. Car was about two months old. I took
> the other car to work. Dealer came over, took the tire off and mounted
> a new one, put it back. No idea how long it took them but I lost no
> time. Had to pay for the tire, of course.

Sidewall holes are bad news.

> When I was a teenager driving a '53 Merc with either used tire or
> recaps, I changed many tires. Found a better way.

I used to change my motorcycle tires myself. I don't know anyone who
doesn't, but I guess some tire shops do bike tires.

[FromTheRafters]

cl...@snyder.on.ca explained :

One time as I was crossing some railroad tracks, I heard my tire going
phtt phtt phtt phtt with every rotation. I pulled over and put on my
spare. Took the tire to a shop to see what happened and to get it
repaired if possible. The object which punctured the tire was found
inside, it was a spark plug.

[Frank Baron]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 01:13:08 -0500, FromTheRafters advised:

> One time as I was crossing some railroad tracks, I heard my tire going
> phtt phtt phtt phtt with every rotation. I pulled over and put on my
> spare. Took the tire to a shop to see what happened and to get it
> repaired if possible. The object which punctured the tire was found
> inside, it was a spark plug.

Wow. A apark plug. I wonder if that's what I ran over?

One day, decades ago, when I was just an obnoxious kid, I was following a
truck at night on a crowded New York highway and I made the mistake of
pissing him off (I was young and stupid). I probably beeped him or flipped
him the bird but I don't remember what I did nor what he did to cause the
altercation. He may have been innocent and he is just circumstantial, but
while I was following him, my tire suddenly blew.

All I remember was hearing a loud POW and my tire was flat instantly.

There was a gash in the tire tread, as I recall, and nothing else visible.
As if a knife had been stuck in the tire. I changed to the spare, and
remember thinking, "never piss off truckers" (and I never did again, since
truckers are not your friend).

A day or two later, when the tire is replaced, there is an actual deep mark
in the alloy wheels on the *inside* of the rim directly across from where
that gash was, but no object. To this day, I don't know what suddenly
flattened that tire; but whatever it was, it was big.

Whatever flattened that tire was long enough to go inside the tire and
touch the inside of the rim which is a few inches, but it then came out. It
was like as if a railroad spike had been run over.

[avag...@gmail.com]

squirm off the contact surface gets belted toward the center, stabilized.

every revo the contact surface/sidewall/ squirms.

I doahno whether more belts or less belting reduces squirm travel.

2" from the tread edge toward center. ?

at that area the patch should be done as a patch/plug from the inside not outside.

ask: ' Ford truck enthusiast forums'

not electronics

[Ron D.]

I hope those tyres were for practice and not used on a car. I don't even think they are fit for a swimming hole swing. Do something useful. Cut the tires artistically and then turn them inside out They make a nice raised bed "flower pot". Have two in the yard.

You know about the "Lincoln's head" test with a penny for those that can't read a ruler?

My father used to do that sort of junk back in the 60's. In fact, he used a bumper jack to break the bead. I doubt I'd even try with an alloy rim.

I patched a few tires when I was unable to drive even. Dad liked lighting the "glue" in the kit for doing inner tubes or the larger inside patches.

The holes I got were from things like a 1/2" diameter bolt. A broken bottle in a parking lot slashed the sidewall too. An icepick poke in the sidewall. One tire got flat when the road disapeared. The trim rings went flying on 3 wheels and the rim got bent. Then there was the time I took a tire off on two pieces slit down the center. I won;t explain that one.

When I hydroplaned for about 40 feet, I learned the importance of picking the right tire. Those were a Dunlap tire - never again.

So, when it was time to buy tires I did a LOT of research and bought the Pirelli P4000, then P4 and the P400 which are all excellent tires with good value and performance, No one stocks them, but my car dealership can have them within a day.

Gone are the simple nails and don't do stupid things. Keep an eye on the tire wear. On one vehicle I had the original front brake calipers for 17 years, $140K miles.

A co-worker said he was afraid to drive with me and he had the habit of driving in excess of 90 mph on a freeway. He claimed I went around corners too fast. the Pirelli's have tread on that sidewall. At one point in my life I took a corner who's max safe speed was 15 mph at 50 mph. That's a big test for the tires, the vehicle and the driver.

LE pulled me over and said to be careful in the snow. I was. I later found him in a snow bank.

Buy a decent set of tires and monitor the tire wear AND at least check and modify the air pressure 2x/year when the temperatures change.

Never had AAA and personally I was towed really once and that should never have happened. I asked the dealership to check the battery in May and the dealership said it was good and I used a Hygrometer in the previous Jan and said i need to think about replacing the battery. I got to a destination about 40 miles away from home and the car did not start. I did my thing for an hour and it started again. Same thing. About an hour and it would start again. I called the Ins company, They said a belt snapped and the battery was good. In two days, i was replacing the battery,

I do remember doing a fuel pump change in a development miles from home when I was 20 or so. Now that job is like $1000 and it;s in the tank.

One time the ignition module died and I was convenient near a junk yard. A bought a module close enough and drove home 40 miles.