Foregoing warranty rights
N_Cook
music kit wanting me to repair intermittant faults after being used only a
few times from new. So loosing his warranty rights. 2 different companies ,
reason for first owner foregoing his rights, unknown. This second time
owner was quoted 2 months minimum turn around, sending back to the factory
(import/asembly plant) in another part of the country, but otherwise no
charge. Is there an excessive number of returns these days or what is the
reason?
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Anyone else coming across this ?
Yes. It's a major source of my business. Usually it's someone who
has purchased an extended warranty with onsite repair, that is on try
#3 to get it fixed right. Some things just can't be done at the
customers home or office. Similarly, with purchases of Apple Care,
who really don't want to wait up to 4 months to get their whatever
fixed. If they really need their computer to working now, they'll
forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
person like me.
It's the 2 month delay that is probably the primary incentive. A
friend, looking over my shoulder, casually mentioned that it took a
large telescope manufacturer about 7 months to return his telescope
for out of warranty repair. Delays are also not very consistent. I've
seen amazingly fast turn around by HP and Dell on warranty repairs
(usually exchange for another repaired unit), followed by atrocious
delays the next month, sometimes losing the item. My guess is that
all these vendors are using outsourced repair facilities, which are
having their own problems ranging from too much business (overload),
to variations on ineptitude.
Locally, the various authorized service centers, are constantly
complaining about delivery delays on replacement components. Their
contract with the manufacturer requires that they use only brand new
parts, obtained directly from the manufacturer. No eBay or
cannibalized parts. So, the customers waits, even though the missing
part is sitting only a few feet away.
Drivel: You have no idea how many laptop hinges I repair. Actually,
I have no idea either as I don't keep count, but it's plenty. Broken
hinges seem to be a problem. Some vendors cover them under warranty,
while others claim that since their hinges are perfect, it must be
customer abuse that caused them to break apart.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)
I forgot to include my warranty certificate:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html>
Phil Allison
"Jeff Liebermann"
>
> I forgot to include my warranty certificate:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html>
** ROTFL !!
You have inspired me to maybe create something similar.
The audio gear I see and repair is all used in live entertainment, both
portable and installed systems.
At least 90% of the failures are CAUSED by careless an continuous abuse of
the gear - I consider turning all the knobs on a Marshall up to 10 and
thrashing it to death to be in that category.
So, my repair guarantee goes like this:
" I guarantee that if you continue to abuse any item I have repaired for you
OR do again the same stupid thing that caused it to fail before - it is
GUARANTEED to fail again.
The usual service charges apply to all items covered under this guarantee. "
.... Phil
Jeff Urban
forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
person like me. "
I don't think that should be called disreputable. If you mean
disreputable with the manufacturer, just how reputable are they ? This
is not an automatic toenail polisher, some people actually use tools
to make money. If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
is disreputable about that ?
Know why I don't buy tools from Sears, a reputable compnay ? Well they
used to Xray their handtools and they never broke (almost). That was
fine with me. But they stopped. Now I have been under a car with a
transmission on my chest. What good is a warranty then ? I need the
tool NOW. What's more a coworker and I bought Craftsman drill/drivers.
The triggers would always fail. They weren't covered and we payed out
of pocket for them, AND had to change them ourselves. About the third
or fourth trip that guy asks " What are you doing to this thing ? ".
Smitty answered "Work". The guy says "If I knew you were going to use
it for work I would've sold you the Makita".
My car doesn't run. Now why the hell do you think I got in my car ? I
wanted to go somewhere. I don't care about the friggin million mile
warranty, I only want to go ten miles let's say. But I want to go
there now. If I wanted to get there WHENEVER I wouldn't need a car,
just call a cab, take a bus or a bicycle, maybe even walk. If I wanted
to walk I wouldn't have given you all that damn money.
Get the point ?
J
Phil Allison
"Jeff Urban"
>"Jeff Liebermann"
>
> "they'll
> forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
> person like me. "
>
> I don't think that should be called disreputable. If you mean
> disreputable with the manufacturer, just how reputable are they ?
** Think Jeff L had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he referred to
himself as "disreputable".
Because Jeff L has apparently not sought or been granted "Authorised
Repairer " status for any brands - he might be seen as disreputable by
some people. As with many things, the direct opposite is actually the case.
So called "Authorised Repairers" are under the most odious kinds of contract
which force them to become aligned with the maker's or importer's demands
and whims rather than their own or their customer's natural interests.
Few if any customers understand this difference and falsely imagine they are
still dealing with a normal repairer.
A normal repairer charges for every job, will tell customers what they found
wrong and how to avoid a repeat. They also do their best to avoid returns
under repair warranties - so shonky " patch up " repairs are just not on.
If the item is clearly a lemon, they will gently point that out too.
OTOH contract warranty repairers do not charge, tell the customer nothing
( or else a pack of bull ) and do work that need only last until the maker's
warranty period expires. They will not openly criticise anything sold under
the brand names they are contracted to work on - no matter how awful it is.
IOW, a contracted repairer is at permanently at war with his own customers.
I can hardly imagine any situation more *disreputable*.
.... Phil
Jeff Urban
contract "
You can say that again. But again the so called benefits being an
illusion will show sooner or later. The key is understanding the goal.
I am still a serviceman, but I am also a businessman now. I don't put
my name on things, but I am involved. Any ASC would cringe at some of
the things I've done. Though few or none were in the capacity of an
ASC, my loyaly always resided with the customer. That's MY customer,
untill I might need to correspond with a manufacturer, then they are
"our" customer. It can almost be said that to be honest one needs to
be dishonest.
I have realized that the goals of the manufacturer are daimetrically
opposed to those of the servicer. They have always acted in that
fashion because the goal has not changed. The methods now are
overcomplication and planned obsolescense. These are alot harder to
fight, but what else will we do ?
They are getting good, and some make it now by swapping boards. They
are so good that it is getting hard to tell which board to swap. In
the old days you could make money with a bag of 6GH8s, but now to get
the right board you might have to know if the set was built on a
Monday or a Thursday. Change is not for the sake of change, it is for
the sake of currency.
EVERY time their product is repaired, they lose out on a sale. They
have formed conglomerates and cooperations, but don't dare use the
word conspiracy unless you are among those priveledged to define it.
This country is a dumping ground. A DLP sold around Easter fails
around Thanksgiving the same year. Parts are no longer available. The
customer is told by the Attourney General's office that if he pursues
his own claim he is excluded from any possible class action lawsuit.
Who's side are they on ? They are effectively preventing lawsuits
which would be a matter of public record.
I have thought this out stem to stern in my 35 years in the business,
and I think my conclusions sound. Nothing will happen without
legislation. Some places in Europe have product support laws, and
lower prescription prices (let's just not go there right now). But
somehow these companiers can make money there. It's just that they can
make more money here.
Forcing the issue, well it makes no sense. It will happen anyway, TVs
costing two grand are junk in a year ? How long do you think people
are going to put up with that with no secure jobs, and therefore no
stable and sustainable credit ? And even with that, what happens when
they are paying off goods that have been in a dumpster for a year ?
I say let it happen by itself. And that is my considered conclusion. A
few will hang on, and we'll be well better off for it. Don't get mad,
get bad.
Call me irreptutable.
J
Jeff Liebermann
<jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"they'll
>forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
>person like me. "
>
>I don't think that should be called disreputable. If you mean
>disreputable with the manufacturer, just how reputable are they ?
From the manufacturers point of view, there are two types of repair
shops. Those that have elected to jump through the hoops and
obstacles of the authorized dealer network, and everyone else. Since
I'm not authorized by any company to do anything, I'm in the latter
category and considered to be de facto incompetent due to the lack of
training that usually comes with being authorized.
<http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>
>This
>is not an automatic toenail polisher, some people actually use tools
>to make money. If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
>is disreputable about that ?
The lack of a certificate from the manufacturer attesting to my
competence. I've never found it really necessary to be authorized,
blessed, or otherwise approved for any manner of repair. When I've
actually tried to become and authorized dealer or repair center, I
usually manage to make a muddle of it.
>Know why I don't buy tools from Sears, a reputable compnay ?
Times have changed. These days, everything is made in China. If you
want quality, look elsewhere but at perhaps 5-10 times the price. I
have my set of Craftsman hand tools from the 1970's, that have never
failed. I don't loan those to anyone. I have my assortment of Home
Depot junk tools, that I'm more than happy to loan to the neighborhood
kids, knowing that they'll get trashed. However, I can buy 5 of those
for the price of one real Proto hand tool.
Incidentally, I use quite a few Craftsman 8" #2 Philips (41296) screw
drivers. I recently bought two from the local Sears store, where I
had to regrind the tip so that it would properly fit a #2 screw head.
>Get the point ?
Nope. You're worrying about the wrong things. The real problem, in
my never humble opinion, is not product quality, but that we're
putting high tech devices in the hands of people with no clue how to
use them, much less how to take care of them. The only way to avoid
the necessary education, while still supplying the absolute cheapest
product, it with a warranty. In short, a warranty is being supplied
in place of a quality product and a consumer education system.
My favorite example is the cell phone. I have a small side business
repairing these and supplying spares and replacements. None of them
are built to be repaired, so that's a challenge. Yet, the condition
of most of the phones I see are so bad, that were it any other
product, I would claim that the owner was intentionally abusing the
device. With an average lifetime of about 18 months for a consumer
dumb phone, the level of quality need not be much above minimal.
Phil Allison
"Jeff Liebermann"
" Jeff Urban"
>
>>If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
>>is disreputable about that ?
>
> The lack of a certificate from the manufacturer attesting to my
> competence.
** ROTFL - I doubt there is even one importer or manufacturer in Australia
capable of making that determination with any accuracy. After all, how
would any of them know ?? They are NOT operating repair businesses, have
no understanding of them and generally take no interest in the topic.
Anecdote:
One time, back in the 80s, I worked for a repair business that had
"authorised" service arrangements for several brands of guitar amp -
including Marshall, Acoustic and ELFA.
The Greek lunatic who imported Acoustic into Australia decided that he could
" micro-manage " the servicing of his brand by making up " kits " of spare
parts that all service techs would have to buy to repair various classes of
fault. All one needed to do was tell HIM the fault scenario and he would
nominate the kit that you needed to purchase. Ordering individual parts as
required was simply no longer an option.
He claimed to me on the phone that all the auto importers and makers were
doing the same thing and it was more " efficient ". Soooo, I told him about
the fault in the unit I had on the bench - that it suffered from loud,
very intermittent crackling noises. After a long pause, he said to ship the
unit down to him, in Melbourne, 500 miles away.
The boss and I did no such stupid thing, of course.
Anecdote 2.
A Melbourne based maker of guitar amps ( ELFA) had issues with their latest
models:
1. The quad op-amps ( all RC4136s) in the pre-amp section were from a faulty
batch ( rejects?) with about a 50% failure rate in the first 3 months. The
maker had earmarked all their remaining stock for manufacture and REFUSED to
supply any spares to us for warranty repairs.
2. Some nut case, probably as an after thought, had fitted stereo headphone
sockets to the amps with no series limiting resistors. The left and right
earphone connections were simply linked to the internal amplifier module and
the speaker connected itself when there was no plug in place.
Soooo, soon as anyone plugged a mono jack into the headphone socket - bang
went the Sanken 60 watt amp module inside. Then, soon as the mono plug was
removed, a 40 volt DC rail was linked to the 12 inch speaker and burnt it
out.
The 12 inch speaker was made right here in Sydney and despite the scenario
being non warrantee, the people in Melbourne wanted US to send the 6 kg
wrecks down to them for appraisal before they would agree to supply a new
one.
The boss told them to shove it.
From then on, we sourced all needed parts ourselves ( including speakers)
got Marshall and Fender mains and output transformers re-wound as needed and
saved ourselves and our customers a lot of grief. We did no more warranty
work.
..... Phil
N_Cook
news:94t9p6hqfeehlogvs...@4ax.com...
Is this the scenario.
These companies import populated boards from China etc and asssemble in this
country ( England). Apart from a designer there may be no one technical
enough in the assembly plant to do repair. Which is fine when there are
plenty of new units around to send out as in-warranty replacements. But that
only works if the rate of returns is say 2 percent , the returns sold on in
that specialist auction house in Nottingham . But if the returns is more
like 10 percent then it will impact on the viability of the company
William Sommerwerck
> repairing these and supplying spares and replacements. None of them
> are built to be repaired, so that's a challenge. Yet, the condition
> of most of the phones I see are so bad, that were it any other
> product, I would claim that the owner was intentionally abusing the
> device. With an average lifetime of about 18 months for a consumer
> dumb phone, the level of quality need not be much above minimal.
I'm curious. My current cell phone -- a Korean Lucky Goldstar -- is almost
five years old. Never had problems with it, and it's in great shape. (I
rarely abuse my purchases.) What, exactly, are the things you see that
suggest products -- cell phones or otherwise -- are abused?
On a related note... I was talking with a friend who's my age, and owns a
company that makes consumer audio equipment. He agreed with me that pride of
ownership has largely disappeared. Nothing seems to be of lasting value.
Products become obsolete after only a few months.
Jeff Liebermann
<grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> My favorite example is the cell phone. I have a small side business
>> repairing these and supplying spares and replacements. None of them
>> are built to be repaired, so that's a challenge. Yet, the condition
>> of most of the phones I see are so bad, that were it any other
>> product, I would claim that the owner was intentionally abusing the
>> device. With an average lifetime of about 18 months for a consumer
>> dumb phone, the level of quality need not be much above minimal.
>
>I'm curious. My current cell phone -- a Korean Lucky Goldstar -- is almost
>five years old. Never had problems with it, and it's in great shape. (I
>rarely abuse my purchases.) What, exactly, are the things you see that
>suggest products -- cell phones or otherwise -- are abused?
Mechanical damage, broken hinges, scratched screens, fingernails
through the key tops, mangled connector covers, broken antennas,
cracked earphone connectors, cracked power/accessory connectors, water
damage, dirt, filth, crud, good, pogs, labels, cracked case, bulging
batteries, etc.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/cell-phones-02.jpg>
These are some of the recent arrivals, after some cleaning. The
really beat up phones, I don't bother trying to fix (unless I need the
parts). My guess is that I have about 150 phones in stock.
Other vendors:
<http://www.recellular.com>
<http://www.dotcells.com>
etc...
Incidentally, LG phones are generally good quality, fairly easy to
fix, and tend to survive. I've had problems with the ENV2 models
falling apart. I'm currently using an LG VX-8300.
>On a related note... I was talking with a friend who's my age, and owns a
>company that makes consumer audio equipment. He agreed with me that pride of
>ownership has largely disappeared. Nothing seems to be of lasting value.
>Products become obsolete after only a few months.
Products are obsolete on arrival. The next generation and possibly
one or two generations after that are in the design, manufacture, and
distribution chain when the current version hits the market. Because
the obvious answer to any problems with the current model is to just
wait for the "new and improved" model that follows, there's no
incentive to fix any of the first generation problems.
Smitty Two
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> Incidentally, LG phones are generally good quality, fairly easy to
> fix, and tend to survive.
As I was leaning over a railing, talking on it, my LG slipped from my
hand and fell 14 feet onto concrete. It landed flat. Back came off,
battery popped out. Nary a scratch and works perfectly since.
Phil Allison
"Jeff Liebermann"
>
> Some wanker asked:
>
>> What, exactly, are the things you see that
>>suggest products -- cell phones or otherwise -- are abused?
>
> Mechanical damage, broken hinges, scratched screens, fingernails
> through the key tops, mangled connector covers, broken antennas,
> cracked earphone connectors, cracked power/accessory connectors, water
> damage, dirt, filth, crud, good, pogs, labels, cracked case, bulging
> batteries, etc.
** I was given a " Palm Pilot " to fix once.
About two weeks prior to my receiving it - a whole container of yoghurt
( flavour unknown) had leaked over it while in a woman's handbag. The woman
concerned had then only wiped it over with a cloth and noted it did not
work.
She left the battery inside - so of course it was ruined.
My own mobile has copped a spillage of bleach and also of liquid detergent
in a similar way - but by immediately removing the battery and rinsing it
with warm water, it lives to fight another day.
Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do if your pocket
digital wonder gets accidentally immersed or suffers a spillage ??
Get the damn battery OUT immediately - then rinse and dry it pronto.
.... Phil
Jeff Liebermann
Have you noticed that most cell phones have rounded corners and
bottoms? The rounded corner distributes the inpact load over a larger
area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped. However,
that doesn't seem to be a design feature in smartphones, which more
closely resemble a box due to the requirement of having a large
rectangular screen. Drop a smart phone, and they're history. The
number of cracked screens on the iPhone and Droid should offer a clue.
They do have somewhat rounded corners, but with a metal frame, any
edge impact transfers directly to the glass screen.
There are some better ideas, but these will need to wait for a change
in public acceptance of what a cell phone should look like:
<http://gadgetsin.com/bugatty-cell-phone-shaped-as-bugatti-veyron.htm>
<http://www.porhomme.com/2008/12/the-concept-handgun-with-built-in-cellphone/>
<http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/dya-cell-phone-slides-diagonally-to-make-or-receive-a-call/>
<http://www.cellfoam.com>
etc...
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do if your pocket
>digital wonder gets accidentally immersed or suffers a spillage ??
Because they want you to destroy their product so that you'll buy a
new one. Every product that is repaired is one less product that is
sold.
<http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>
If you're into ecology and conservation, repair is a good thing. If
you're into designed obsolescence, then it's a bad thing.
>Get the damn battery OUT immediately - then rinse and dry it pronto.
The common perception among cell phone vendors and manufacturers is
that the condition and disposition of the phone, AFTER IT'S SOLD, is
not their problem. If you trash the phone, unless you've purchased
the overpriced extended equipment warranty, it's your problem, not
theirs. In most cases, they don't even bother to repair the wet
phone, and simply issue a replacement (or try to sell you an upgrade).
I suppose safety might be a possible justification for removing the
battery, but selling the customer a new phone is far more profitable.
I suppose we could include some verbage in the voluminous book of
legal disclaimers and limitations of responsibility that seems to be
included with all consumer products these days. Removing the battery
would fit nicely between "Do not eat the phone" and "Do not go
swimming with your cell phone".
Michael A. Terrell
Or, "Do not swim while eating your cell phone..." ;-)
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
>
> Or, "Do not swim while eating your cell phone..." ;-)
Best one IMHO was the directions I got with a stainless steel coffee
percolator:
"Do Not Use In A Microwave Oven."
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do if your pocket
>digital wonder gets accidentally immersed or suffers a spillage ??
One vendor tries to be ummmm... helpful:
<http://www.printingchoice.com/8-examples-of-horrific-fine-print/>
Near the bottom of the page:
"Motorola Razr: Do not try to dry your phone in a microwave"
Well, it's a start.
Michael A. Terrell
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
> > Or, "Do not swim while eating your cell phone..." ;-)
>
> Best one IMHO was the directions I got with a stainless steel coffee
> percolator:
>
> "Do Not Use In A Microwave Oven."
Sure, but that because you would have to lay it on it's side. ;-)
Jeff Urban
area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped."
You are an engineer somewhere ? I am not being sarcastic, maybe you
should be if you aren't. That's the way to think. Look at how some
things, bigger things are built. You might scratch your head and say "
What, did they think it was going to fall up ? ". Well that is exactly
what they were thinking.
I can design simple stuff, test fixtures and all that, apply a signal
and watch the result through a current resistor, shit like that, but I
am not an employable engineer, except by myself and a few others. But
I can think of it from their viewpoint. All they care is get it on the
shelves intact working and sellable. After that the minimum warranty
possible, anything goes under US law. Got to watch it in Europe, their
governments seem to work for the people there. We're working on that.
But the US government works for us.
Think I'm fucking kidding ?
J
William Sommerwerck
> with a stainless steel coffee percolator:
> "Do Not Use In A Microwave Oven."
That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
> electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.
I can understand this, but anyone born after 1970 probably had their bottles
heated in a microwave and have grown up with one. That makes it likely
that they were taught as infants you never put metal into a microwave,
and although there are some exceptions (they probably don't know them)
In fact, anyone with a computer capable of playing youtube videos or a tv
with the discovery channel has seen the effect of a microwave on a CD.
On the other hand, a coffee percolator is not a young person's device,
only people who drank their coffee before Mr. Coffee, Melita filters,
and Starbucks would even think of using one. I'm sure there are a lot of
older people out there who would buy one but have never quite grasped
the concept of no metal in a micro. :-)
William Sommerwerck
> if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
> or suffers a spillage?
It's common knowledge in the electronics industry that if the "soiled" item
is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer could
find itself liable for a free replacement. * In many cases, a customer could
visit the nearest cell phone store and get a replacement in less time.
Nikon once ran an ad about a photographer in India who'd accidentally dunked
his F. He carried it some distance in a bucket of fresh water (which was
then standard for photo equipment -- you kept the camera wet until you got
it to a service tech), periodically removing it to snap a shot! (It's not
clear how the film survived this treatment.)
Almost 30 years ago, while on a canoe trip, my Olympus XA got completely
immersed. I immediately bought another one, but I discovered -- several
years later -- that it still worked! And it still is working! It didn't rust
or corrode. Amazing. Structural plastics -- ya gotta love 'em.
* About 15 years ago, I took my HP 4M into work, because we were doing so
much printing there weren't enough printers to go around. (The company later
bought me a replacement toner cartridge.) As I was carrying it out of my
apartment, the paper tray came loose and crashed on the concrete steps,
breaking. This was around the time of a major California earthquake, and HP
had run an ad telling how another model of laser printer had fallen to the
floor without damage. I pointed out that HP couldn't very well use this fact
as an inducement to buy their products, then object when I asked for a
replacement tray that had been subjected to similar abuse. After some
haggling, I was sent a slightly used tray at no charge.
William Sommerwerck
> only people who drank their coffee before Mr. Coffee, Melita filters,
> and Starbucks would even think of using one. I'm sure there are a lot of
> older people out there who would buy one but have never quite grasped
> the concept of no metal in a micro. :-)
Actually, modern microwaves are more tolerant. You can put a metal tray in a
microwave, and nothing bad will happen.
The issue isn't metal, per se -- a metal plate reflects microwaves as the
cavity walls do -- but sharp spots at which the field intensity is so high
that you get corona discharge or arcing.
I once put a jar of Adam's peanut butter in the microwave to warm it -- and
you should have seen the arcing at the tiny -- really tiny -- bits of
aluminum that were left on the lip from the seal.
Jeff Liebermann
<jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"The rounded corner distributes the inpact load over a larger
>area of the case than it would if it were more box shaped."
>
>You are an engineer somewhere ?
Yep. Wit out mah spellin chequer, I kin spel just like an engineer.
<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeff-liebermann/0/823/151>
>I am not being sarcastic, maybe you
>should be if you aren't. That's the way to think.
Thanks. The down side of being an engineer is the bad habit of
looking at any product and thinking that it could have been designed
better. For example, the doctor recommended I get some exercise. So,
I bought a bicycle, then another, etc, until I now have far too many
bicycles:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/index.html>
Instead of riding them, I've been looking at the way they work, and
the way the components are designed. I've read some books on design,
researched patents, performed my own repairs, rebuilt a few bikes, and
pondered the logic behind the designs. Of course, I think I can do
better and have designed and built a few experimental components that
I might eventually sell. The problem is, I'm so busy analyzing the
bicycles, I don't have much time left to actually ride them. According
to the bicycle computah, I've only ridden about 100 miles in the last
3 months.
>Look at how some
>things, bigger things are built. You might scratch your head and say "
>What, did they think it was going to fall up ? ". Well that is exactly
>what they were thinking.
Yep. However, that's not exactly the way I do it. I think "What
problem were they trying to solve"? If you understand the motivation,
you usually understand the rational. That's often difficult when
dealing with industrial design and artistic concerns. The problem may
have been nothing more than product differentiation, or trying to look
sufficiently different than the rest of the pack. For example, the
rounded corners have many potential benefits besides surviving a drop
test. Rounded corners appeal more to women, while men prefer more
angular products. It's easier to mold parts with rounded angles, than
with angular corners. It may have been simply functional, so that the
iPhone doesn't rip one's pocket or purse liner. It might have been
human factors, where talking on a phone with a sharp edge digging into
one's palm, is not exactly ergonomic.
>I can design simple stuff, test fixtures and all that, apply a signal
>and watch the result through a current resistor, shit like that, but I
>am not an employable engineer, except by myself and a few others.
Welcome to the age of specialization. It's a dangerous place to be as
when your specialty is suddenly exported overseas, you're potentially
unemployable. I saw the problem early. Officially, I was an RF
engineer. However, I made the effort to get experience in many
adjacent fields, and bounced around the company doing almost
everything. Hint: avoid specialization.
>But
>I can think of it from their viewpoint.
You need to attend a few product brainstorming and subsequent design
review meetings to really understand how things work. Reverse
engineering is possible only if the motivations that inspired the
designs are logical. I've seen designs that were based on faulty
marketing, bad guesses as to user needs, managerial egos, and simple
stupidity. The designs that worked and sold were deemed brilliant.
Those that failed were deemed, ummm.... something else. For example,
the first incantation of the iPod player, was the Diamond Rio:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300>
which pre-dated the iPod by about 3 years. It was very similar to the
iPod, but instead was a flop. There were many problems, but the big
one as that Apple solved the legal issues prior to release, while
Diamond did not. Diamond spent the initial years fighting lawsuits,
while Apple had already made a deal with the recording industry. You
could not have determined any of this just looking at the product and
trying to reverse engineer the logic behind the design.
>All they care is get it on the
>shelves intact working and sellable.
Nope. I could easily design almost anything that will appear on the
shelf and be sellable. The trick is to make it profitable for
everyone involved. There's also litigation avoidance, bad press,
timing, reviews, distribution, warehousing, shipping, promotion, ad
infinitum that has to be dealt with. Those are often more difficult
and time consuming than the product design. I recall several product
launches that had to be delayed because of some obscure problem, such
as wrong wording on the legal disclaimers page/book or failure to
display some certification agency's logo with the proper font size.
I've worked on several products where the initial product design took
about 2 weeks. Prototypes and troubleshooting added another 3 weeks.
However, getting it into production, out the door, and into the hands
of paying customers, took an additional 30 weeks, little of which had
much to do with the initial design. In effect, the design was
"frozen" after 2 weeks.
>After that the minimum warranty
>possible, anything goes under US law. Got to watch it in Europe, their
>governments seem to work for the people there. We're working on that.
>But the US government works for us.
Not really. If you were ever to do your own product, you'll soon find
that the legal system heavily favors the plaintiff. In Europe, court
costs are paid by the loser, so there's a tremendous counter incentive
to solving problems by litigation. In the US, it's paid by both
parties, meaning that even if you prevail in court, you can easily
lose your potential profits or the company to the legal costs. Product
liability, tort reform, and patent law all currently favor the
"injured" party in the US.
>Think I'm fucking kidding ?
Yes, because engineers don't talk or write like that.
Jeff Liebermann
<grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Actually, modern microwaves are more tolerant. You can put a metal tray in a
>microwave, and nothing bad will happen.
Yep. Some come with metal racks:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microwave_metal_shelf.JPG>
As long as there is something inside the oven cavity that will ABSORB
the RF power, it's safe. Take away the absorber, such as with an
empty microwave oven, and the resultant standing waves will build up a
sufficiently large field to initiate arcing.
Of course, put anything, except food, in a microwave oven, and your
warranty is torched.
William Sommerwerck
> the RF power, it's safe. Take away the absorber,
> such as with an empty microwave oven, and the
> resultant standing waves will build up a sufficiently
> large field to initiate arcing.
Even with something to absorb the energy, you can still get arcing from
sharp metal edges.
David Nebenzahl
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>> That isn't quite so stupid as it sounds. Even though I had a good grasp of
>> electronics as a teenager, I didn't understand this.
>
> I can understand this, but anyone born after 1970 probably had their bottles
> heated in a microwave and have grown up with one. That makes it likely
> that they were taught as infants you never put metal into a microwave,
> and although there are some exceptions (they probably don't know them)
So--and this is completely out of left field, I know--what would happen
if a guy put a vacuum tube--say a biggish octal one, like a 5Y3 or a
6V6--into a microwave and nuked it?
I've nuked CDs and derived many seconds of amusement from that ...
--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:
yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by
- from Usenet (what's *that*?)
William Sommerwerck
> octal one, like a 5Y3 or a 6V6 -- into a microwave and
> nuked it?
You'd certainly get arcing from the pins. It's not obvious (to me) how the
tube's elements would react.
David Nebenzahl
Ah, I forgot about the pins. OK, let's say we really have too much time
on our hands and want to continue the experiment, so we get something to
plug the tube into, say a pin straightener, with no exposed metal. What
then?
(What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like that purplish
glow you sometimes see emanating from the plates of overdriven tubes ...)
Phil Allison
"William Sommerwanker is a lying ASS"
>> Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
>> if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
>> or suffers a spillage?
>
> It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...
** How would a bullshitting puke like you know anything of the sort ?
> that if the "soiled" item
> is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
> forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
> consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer could
> find itself liable for a free replacement.
** Total BOLLOCKS.
..... Phil
William Sommerwerck
> that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
> the plates of overdriven tubes...
Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.
William Sommerwerck
news:8vsfiq...@mid.individual.net...
> ** Total BOLLOCKS.
Phil... SHUT UP.
Phil Allison
>
>>>> Why is it that no maker ever gives advice on what to do
>>>> if your pocket digital wonder gets accidentally immersed
>>>> or suffers a spillage?
>
>>> It's common knowledge in the electronics industry...
>
>> ** How would a bullshitting puke like you know anything of the sort ?
>
>>> that if the "soiled" item
>>> is thoroughly flushed in/with distilled water, then allowed to dry (or
>>> forcibly dried), it will often recover. If the manufacturer advises the
>>> consumer to do this, and the device remains dead, the manufacturer
>>> could find itself liable for a free replacement.
>
>> ** Total BOLLOCKS.
>
> Phil... SHUT UP.
** Fuck off and die you vile TROLLING pig.
.... Phil
>
>
David Nebenzahl
So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.
Phil Allison
"David Nebenzahl"
>
>>> What I'm hoping for, of course, is some kewl effect, like
>>> that purplish glow you sometimes see emanating from
>>> the plates of overdriven tubes...
>>
>> Unfortunately, there's no gas in a "vacuum" tube to glow.
>
> So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.
>
** The blue/ purple glow is emanating from " impurities" in the glass - it
is generated by electrons hitting the glass at high speed.
Most audio power tubes (ie 6L6GCs, EL34s, EL84s and 6550s ) have cut outs
in the plate structures that allow this to happen.
The blue glow will be there when the tube is new ( if it's there at all )
and is not a sign of a problem.
It may be fairly steady or respond to high drive levels - ie when the
plate voltage nearly doubles in magnitude with signal peaks.
.... Phil
Jeff Liebermann
<nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.
Impurities in the glass envelope or gas in the tube.
If gas, take an anti-acid tablet and you should be fine in a few
minutes.
<http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm>
Scroll down to:
C. Blue Glow -- what causes it?
for more details.
Smitty Two
David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
> So--and this is completely out of left field, I know--what would happen
> if a guy put a vacuum tube--say a biggish octal one, like a 5Y3 or a
> 6V6--into a microwave and nuked it?
Everything on planet Earth has been put into a microwave. Search YouTube
for "vacuum tube microwave" and you'll get several relevant hits.
Meat Plow
> On Sun, 03 Apr 2011 20:09:10 -0700, David Nebenzahl
> <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>
>>So where does that purplish glow come from? I've seen it.
>
> Impurities in the glass envelope or gas in the tube.
>
> If gas, take an anti-acid tablet and you should be fine in a few
> minutes.
>
> <http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm> Scroll down to:
> C. Blue Glow -- what causes it?
> for more details.
So even after a getter flash there is still a certain amount of
impurities? I've never seen a 6L6 that didn't have some blue inside
when in operation. It looks as though the blue only occurs where the
electron beams hit the inside of the glass. At least in new tubes.
--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse
whit3rd
> On 4/3/2011 5:29 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:
> So--and this is completely out of left field, I know--what would happen
> if a guy put a vacuum tube--say a biggish octal one, like a 5Y3 or a
> 6V6--into a microwave and nuked it?
You mean, 'nuked it AGAIN', don't you? The usual manufacturing
of vacuum tubes is finished off with pumpdown, sealing, and then
running an induction coil to heat the little loop-thing
that evaporates a bit of metal (like sodium). It's called 'flashing',
and the silvery deposit ('getter') on the inside of the tube is intended to
be an oxygen scavenger for the long lifetime of the device.
In the case of photomultipliers, it is also done to create the photocathode
layer, often of some alloy that cannot be usefully blended until there's
a vacuum.
Meat Plow
They use getters in metallurgy to absorb impurities. The getter is
actually the "little loop-thing" and not the deposit that is a byproduct
of the flashing. Some getters are made of a special material and don't
need flashing. Don't ask me for a tube number. Tubes with graphite plates
don't need a getter as the graphite absorbs impurities.
Jeff Liebermann
Yep. As I vaguely recall (which means I didn't Google for a
reference) glass has the irritating habit of collecting impurities and
volatiles during manufacture. Irving Langmuir figured this out in the
1920's working on light bulbs. He would draw the best vacuum possible
and in a few days, find the bulb full of water vapor and other gasses.
The hot filament would break down the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
The oxygen would then oxidize the electrodes, and blacken the inside
of the bulb.
So, he invented a method of baking the glass to remove the volatiles
prior to evacuation and an acid bath to remove some of the impurities.
It also works nicely for vacuum tubes, but like all such processes, is
far from perfect. There's always some impurities left behind.
When we talk about a "gassy" vacuum tube, it's not a leaky glass
envelope or seal. The getter does best with reactive gases and does
nothing for eliminating noble gases, which will not react with metals
(or most anything else). It's those noble gases that remain (helium,
neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon) that you're seeing glow. Most
likely helium and argon mix. The small helium molecule will also
diffuse through the glass from the outside air. See photos at:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas#Discharge_color>
Phil Allison
"Jeff Liebermann"
>
> When we talk about a "gassy" vacuum tube, it's not a leaky glass
> envelope or seal.
** The term covers that eventuality too.
Any tube that has even a tiny air leak will glow a pinkish purple inside
like a bastard.
> The getter does best with reactive gases and does
> nothing for eliminating noble gases, which will not react with metals
> (or most anything else). It's those noble gases that remain (helium,
> neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon) that you're seeing glow.
** Maybe - but how would any significant amount of Argon get inside the
tube UNLESS there was air leaking in ?
Remember, Argon makes up less than 1% of air and does not react with metal
parts.
The vacuum inside a tube is less than one millionth of atmospheric pressure.
BTW:
Nitrogen mixed with a little CO2 makes a nice, white glow under low
pressure - its called a "Moore Tube"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_McFarlan_Moore
His untimely death was a bit shocking.
.... Phil
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>
>"Jeff Liebermann"
>>
>> When we talk about a "gassy" vacuum tube, it's not a leaky glass
>> envelope or seal.
>
>** The term covers that eventuality too.
Ok. My bad grammar. I meant that if the tube is deemed "gassy", it's
probably not an air leak in the envelope or seal. It's more likely
gaseous diffusion of helium or neon through the envelope.
>Any tube that has even a tiny air leak will glow a pinkish purple inside
>like a bastard.
Yep. I've seen the pink glow. The only way I could tell the
difference between the nitrogen glow of an air leak:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionized_air_glow>
and that of a helium diffusion through the glass leak:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas#Discharge_color>
was that the nitrogen glow would not last very long as the filament
would burn out due to oxidation.
>> The getter does best with reactive gases and does
>> nothing for eliminating noble gases, which will not react with metals
>> (or most anything else). It's those noble gases that remain (helium,
>> neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon) that you're seeing glow.
>
>** Maybe - but how would any significant amount of Argon get inside the
>tube UNLESS there was air leaking in ?
>
>Remember, Argon makes up less than 1% of air and does not react with metal
>parts.
Oops. Y'er correct. Only helium and neon will diffuse through glass.
Argon and larger gas molecules won't diffuse through glass.
>The vacuum inside a tube is less than one millionth of atmospheric pressure.
Yeah, but the pressure differential is 14.7 lbs/sq-in. Over the
surface of the 6L6, that's about (assuming a cylinder):
Surface Area = 2 Pi r^2 + 2 pi r h
= (2 * 3.14 * 0.7^2) + (2 * 3.14 * 0.7 * 3.0)
= 16 sq-in
Surface pressure = 16 * 14.7 lbs/sq-in = 235 lbs.
(Yes, I'm guessing at the dimension for a 6L6 as I don't have one
handy). That's quite a bit of pressure pushing the helium and neon
atoms through the glass. Still, for helium, the diffusion rate is
slow (helium through pyrex at STP):
<http://teaching.matdl.org/teachingarchives/browser/trunk/matml/transport/problems/hepyrex-solution.pdf?format=raw>
8.0 x 10^-8 m^3/hr
>Nitrogen mixed with a little CO2 makes a nice, white glow under low
>pressure - its called a "Moore Tube"
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_McFarlan_Moore
>His untimely death was a bit shocking.
I guess his murderer didn't do a proper patent search before starting
work on his invention. We're more civilized these daze. Instead of
murder, we have litigation. It's much like murder in slow motion.
Phil Allison
"Jeff Liebermann"
"Phil Allison"
>>
>>> When we talk about a "gassy" vacuum tube, it's not a leaky glass
>>> envelope or seal.
>>
>>** The term covers that eventuality too.
>
> Ok. My bad grammar. I meant that if the tube is deemed "gassy", it's
> probably not an air leak in the envelope or seal. It's more likely
> gaseous diffusion of helium or neon through the envelope.
** Unfortunately, that idea is at odds with observations of tubes that show
internal glowing.
Egs: It happens to tubes that are used or not and are old or not PLUS most
even very old tubes show no sign of gas.
The only correlations I have seen are:
1. Certain batches all have the issue.
2. Tubes that have suffered long term overheating.
3. Tubes with visible corrosion on the pins and / or cracks in the glass
near the pins.
..... Phil
William Sommerwerck
This is way OT, but Chicago Miniature Lamp claimed that helium diffusion
shortened the life of incandescent lamps.
Cydrome Leader
>>
>>>If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
>>>is disreputable about that ?
>>
>> The lack of a certificate from the manufacturer attesting to my
>> competence.
>
> ** ROTFL - I doubt there is even one importer or manufacturer in Australia
> capable of making that determination with any accuracy. After all, how
> would any of them know ?? They are NOT operating repair businesses, have
> no understanding of them and generally take no interest in the topic.
>
> Anecdote:
>
> One time, back in the 80s, I worked for a repair business that had
> "authorised" service arrangements for several brands of guitar amp -
> including Marshall, Acoustic and ELFA.
>
> The Greek lunatic who imported Acoustic into Australia decided that he could
> " micro-manage " the servicing of his brand by making up " kits " of spare
> parts that all service techs would have to buy to repair various classes of
> fault. All one needed to do was tell HIM the fault scenario and he would
> nominate the kit that you needed to purchase. Ordering individual parts as
> required was simply no longer an option.
>
> He claimed to me on the phone that all the auto importers and makers were
> doing the same thing and it was more " efficient ". Soooo, I told him about
> the fault in the unit I had on the bench - that it suffered from loud,
> very intermittent crackling noises. After a long pause, he said to ship the
> unit down to him, in Melbourne, 500 miles away.
>
> The boss and I did no such stupid thing, of course.
>
> Anecdote 2.
>
> A Melbourne based maker of guitar amps ( ELFA) had issues with their latest
> models:
>
> 1. The quad op-amps ( all RC4136s) in the pre-amp section were from a faulty
> batch ( rejects?) with about a 50% failure rate in the first 3 months. The
> maker had earmarked all their remaining stock for manufacture and REFUSED to
> supply any spares to us for warranty repairs.
>
> 2. Some nut case, probably as an after thought, had fitted stereo headphone
> sockets to the amps with no series limiting resistors. The left and right
> earphone connections were simply linked to the internal amplifier module and
> the speaker connected itself when there was no plug in place.
>
> Soooo, soon as anyone plugged a mono jack into the headphone socket - bang
> went the Sanken 60 watt amp module inside. Then, soon as the mono plug was
> removed, a 40 volt DC rail was linked to the 12 inch speaker and burnt it
> out.
This is great, I laughed out loud over this one!