Semi-OT: Rewiring Whole House

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Rewiring whole house, mostly existing and
not adding many new outlets, keeping
existing 20 year old panel. Will doing this
see any appreciable drop in electrical
consumption, bills?

Could not find Usenet group devoted to
electricity/Electrical work.

[John Robertson]

This will not save you any electricity unless the wires and walls are
warm to the touch (danger!). Unless the house is wired two wire or
aluminum wiring there is no real point to replacing the copper. If the
plugs are loose in the sockets, then new sockets are a good idea. You
won't save any money, but your lights, or whatever is plugged into that
outlet will run a bit better as it has a lower voltage drop between the
outlet and the plug.

But save on your electrical bill? Nope. Not going to happen. Updating
the wiring won't improve the efficiency of your appliances. You would be
better off replacing light bulbs with LEDs, and update your electric
stove/water heater/dryer/dishwasher with more energy efficient models -
then your electrical consumption can drop (if you use the equipment to
the same extent) and you will save some $$ in the long run.

Maybe.

Of course replacing perfectly good electrical appliances to save
electricity usually doesn't make economic sense as the cost of
replacement is greater than the savings in electricity. You need to do
the math. Also, newer appliances tend to be less reliable than older, so
you may have to replace them yet again.

The best way to reduce power consumption is to wrap your water heater
with an insulating blanket and insulate the hot water pipes. Other than
replacing light bulbs with LED (whole other discussion) there isn't much
you can do that is quick, easy, and relatively effective.

If you are still going to be rewiring your house yourself then either
get an inspector in to make sure you did the job properly or run the
risk of fire in outlets or electrical shock to your family, etc...

John :-#)#

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[Dave Platt]

>Rewiring whole house, mostly existing and
>not adding many new outlets, keeping
>existing 20 year old panel. Will doing this
>see any appreciable drop in electrical
>consumption, bills?

Assuming you're keeping the same lights and appliances, and using them
in the same way... no, almost certainly not.

If it _did_ mean that, it'd mean that there were huge and horrible
electrical losses in your existing wiring. Since such "lost"
electricity would necessarily turn into heat, you'd probably
have already lost your home to a fire of electrical origin, when some
bad contact in outlet overheated and something burst into flame.

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Dave, John,

Thanks for your replies.

I guess I just thought that swapping
out old copper wire that had grown
blacker than black with shiny new
copper would somehow increase
the efficiency of the electrical
system.

[Michael Black]

alt.home.repair would seem to be the place.

There used to be a faq about electrical wiring and finding that might find
the most proper newsgroup, though I suspect it was posted to
alt.home.repair

Whatever you do, don't pull out the old wiring as a first step. Use it to
pull the new wiring into place.

Michael

[John Robertson]

That oxide layer is actually protecting the copper from further
corrosion. Much like silver tarnishes. It won't affect the conductivity
of the wire unless it is aggressive (salt water can eat copper wires).

You might want to consider getting one of those wattmeter (Kill A Watt)
devices that you can plug into outlets and see how much load your
appliance is drawing and also if there is a voltage drop when it turns
on. A slight drop would be normal (a volt or two) but five or ten would
indicate problems with connections between the outlet and the breaker
box (or a bad breaker).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kill-a-Watt-Voltage-Test-Inspector-Outlet-Electricity-Energy-Usage-Meter-Monitor-/172580310454?

[Clifford Heath]

On 26/04/17 06:23, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> Rewiring whole house, mostly existing and
> not adding many new outlets, keeping
> existing 20 year old panel. Will doing this
> see any appreciable drop in electrical
> consumption, bills?

Probably not.

But why would you do all this and keep the old panel?
There is so much good new stuff for modern panels,
like breakers with builtin RCD cut-offs that can
radically increase safety, as well as leave you
with some lights on when a device starts to trip
other circuits.

[John Robertson]

For those of us on the west side of the Pond (Atlantic Ocean), RCD
(Residual Current Device) is the same GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) as
far as I can tell...

[Clifford Heath]

On 26/04/17 16:26, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2017/04/25 7:37 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> On 26/04/17 06:23, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Rewiring whole house, mostly existing and
>>> not adding many new outlets, keeping
>>> existing 20 year old panel. Will doing this
>>> see any appreciable drop in electrical
>>> consumption, bills?
>>
>> Probably not.
>>
>> But why would you do all this and keep the old panel?
>> There is so much good new stuff for modern panels,
>> like breakers with builtin RCD cut-offs that can
>> radically increase safety, as well as leave you
>> with some lights on when a device starts to trip
>> other circuits.
>
> For those of us on the west side of the Pond (Atlantic Ocean), RCD
> (Residual Current Device) is the same GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) as
> far as I can tell...

Much further west... across a bigger pond, the Pacific :)
There are multiple acronyms used here, as far as I can tell.
RCD/GFI is also more important at 240V.

Clifford Heath.

[pf...@aol.com]

I worked my way through school as an electrician. So, there is a short answers (no) and a much longer answer (it depends).

Back in the day, few houses had much more than a refrigerator, a few lights and perhaps a radio or two and a clothes iron. Maybe a 'rich' house had a curling iron. Those with electric stoves and/or water heaters wired those devices specifically and specially. A 60A (2 x 60A @ 120VAC, technically) service would be more than enough. Today, pretty much every house needs a 200A service for the myriad of devices taken for granted from multiple hair-dryers, central air-conditioning, convection ovens, on-and-on-and-on, too many to list.

Using our house as an example (built in 1890, substantially expanded in 1928), the distance from the electrical panel on the northwest corner of the basement to the light in the cedar closet on the southeast corner of the third floor is very nearly 150 feet. If that line were 14-gauge wire, there *would* be significant line-drop were I to attach say.... a 10A load (perfectly safe, theoretically). Meaning that there would be a small efficiency drop for *that* line with *that* load, perhaps as much as 5%.

Would I reduce my electric bill by replacing that line with heavier gauge wire? Sure. Would I be able to measure those savings in any linear way? Probably not as it may amount to a few bucks in any given year. Would I sleep better at night? Sure. Line-drop = heat.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[pf...@aol.com]

Don't forget that bane of the electrician's existence: The Arc-Fault Breaker.

But, replacing wiring without replacing the main panel (or the breakers within it if of the correct pattern) is rather silly.

As already noted, the black coating is protective. Some old wiring was silver-plated (very, very rare), some was nickle-plated (rare), and much more of it was tin-plated. So the black coatings could also be oxides of these plating materials. Remember that back in the day, all this was once "new" and all sorts of 'stuff' was tried - leading, eventually, to the NEC.

Note also the K&T (Knob & Tube) wiring, if not overloaded, is extremely safe. The conductors are sufficiently far apart that arcing is not possible, and as the conductors are individual, they dissipate heat well. Sure, some insurance companies charge extra if K&T wiring is present in an old house, most reasonable ones do not. And the amount of destruction necessary to replace K&T wiring entirely in an old house can be significant. Just know where it is, what it is, and treat it accordingly.

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 7:57:16 AM UTC-4, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> Don't forget that bane of the electrician's existence: The Arc-Fault Breaker.
>

> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

And the Edison circuit in an older house.

[thekma...@gmail.com]

pf...@aol.com wrote: "Note also the K&T (Knob & Tube) wiring, if not overloaded, is extremely safe."


Well, the last knob & tube left my house 30
years ago, when a 100ampere service
replaced our 60.

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Tim R wrote: "
And the Edison circuit in an older house. "

One wire inny-outy?

[pf...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 8:09:32 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:

>
> And the Edison circuit in an older house.

That would be an old house indeed to be wired for 240 VDC.

Otherwise, yes. The standard H-N-H configuration even today.

[Andy Burns]

pf...@aol.com wrote:

> Don't forget that bane of the electrician's existence: The Arc-Fault Breaker.

I gather they are being considered for inclusion in the 18th edition of
the (rightpond) IET wiring regulations ...

<http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/61/18th-edition-report/index.cfm>

[Ron D.]

Rewiring could possibly increase it, but probably not perceptible. The GFCI/AFCI outlets may draw a bit of current.

Is the OP/TS one of those people you believe that not having on of those child protection caps makes the electricity leak out?

If your going fuse to breaker you might get a break on your insurance.

[John Robertson]

If he has Knob & Tube wiring then he may have NO insurance. Of course
knob & tube is pre-war (II) and most has vanished, but it shows up in
older houses here in Vancouver (Canada).

http://www.carsondunlop.com/resources/articles/knob-and-tube-wiring-home-owners-insurance/

[thekma...@gmail.com]

John Robertson:

If you read back through this
thread you will see where I
mentioned that the last knob
& tube wiring was removed
from my house back in the
1980s.

[pf...@aol.com]

Any, repeat, any reasonable insurance company that has any, repeat, any experience with old houses will accept K&T wiring as a matter of course. Our house was built in 1890, and is by no means the oldest house in the neighborhood. Visible from our front door are houses from 1850 through 1963, with the preponderance built from about 1895 to about 1915. All but the 1960s house *will* have K&T wiring in them. The 1963 house will have ungrounded NM and thin-gauge grounded NM wire - no prize there either.

Our insurance company did send an inspector to check our wiring if only because we have 'full historical replacement' insurance. But we got a clean bill and no issues or additions to our premium caused by vintage wiring still in use (lighting circuits only). We do have a 200A service, and extensive new wiring, by the way. Not as if we are Luddites.

Any company with such an exclusion would eliminate 2/3 of Cheltenham Township from coverage. Our oldest occupied house is from 1689.

[John Robertson]

Thanks, missed that.

On the other hand folks reading this may be looking for solutions in
their situations so I try to frame my answers for a larger group than
just the OP's requirements.

John

[John Robertson]

Thanks for the info. Here in Canada it was getting harder to get
insurance for K&T back in the early 00s, but I sold my house before it
became a problem, and - as you say - there are probably enlightened
insurance companies who will cover you once the house has an electrical
inspection.

John

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

It would be nice if all properties installed electrical conduit. But nearly all residential wiring, BX, MC, Romex (copper 12-3 or including a super-neutral 10 wire instead) that's been installed is attached to the walls won't pull anymore. You'd first have to get behind the walls and un-attach at each and every attach point in order to re-pull. Even from branch to panel.