Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
mm
At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. When one of
them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.
I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
those units that might have them.
Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)
I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.
Items for sale, if interested:
I can install it myself. I'm considering, in ascending price order:
http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG1240RC3-Type-2-Protection-Device/dp/B003NVLWN2/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_01_t_lh
http://www.amazon.com/INTERMATIC-IG3240RC3-PANEL-SURGE-ARRESTOR/dp/B003A3MUJI/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_02_t_lh
http://www.smarthome.com/4860/Leviton-51120-1-Whole-House-Surge-Suppressor-Surge-Protector/p.aspx
and less likely (plus two are required, one for each leg)
http://www.amazon.com/Square-D-SDSA1175CP-ARRESTER-LIGHTNG/dp/B002GUZ1NI
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
Stop buying junk. MOV surge protectors are really worthless junk. Here in
230v land, when they go, they often do so with a bang and sometimes catch
fire.
Look at TransTector ones. They use silicon avalance diodes which when compared
to MOVs are indestructable. They are more expensive but in the long run cheaper
as they don't fail like MOV ones.
You might also want to learn about how lightening works and how to avoid it.
Contrary to what people believe (yes Franklin got it wrong) lightening flows
from the GROUND UP. Once a path is opened from the ground, the polarity
reverses and the usual flash you see flows downward.
If you place grounded sharp pointed objects on top of buildings, you will
CREATE lightening.
If you place large "fuzzy" grounded objects on top of buildings, you will
dissipate any charges that build up and reduce the chance of lightening
strikes.
I got rid of a lightening problem by placing a large 2m ham band (144mHz)
antenna on my roof. It was a 12 foot beam with 10 vertical elements and
10 horizontal elements. At 144mHz it was an antenna, at DC (lightening)
it was just a big blob of aluminum connected to ground. So as charges
started to build up, they were dissipated.
When I moved, I took down the antenna, I wonder what my neighbors thought
when the lightening returned. :-(
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
bud--
> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
It is an engineered device with internal protection matched to the MOVs.
I would never repair one.
>
>
> I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. When one of
> them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.
Surge hits to a MOV deteriorate it. With high ratings a suppressor will
last a very long time. The worst case surge on a service power line to
your house that has any reasonable chance of occurring is 10,000A.
Suppressors with much higher ratings are readily available.
For a house, the IEEE recommends ratings of 20,000 to 70,000A _per
wire_. For high lightning areas the recommendation is 40,000 to 120,000A
_per wire_.
>
> I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
> those units that might have them.
>
> Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
> first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)
>
>
> I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
> repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.
Make sure your fire insurance covers the suppressor you engineered.
>
>
> Items for sale, if interested:
> I can install it myself. I'm considering, in ascending price order:
> http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG1240RC3-Type-2-Protection-Device/dp/B003NVLWN2/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_01_t_lh
This has minimal information and no ratings. Didn't look at the two below.
> http://www.amazon.com/INTERMATIC-IG3240RC3-PANEL-SURGE-ARRESTOR/dp/B003A3MUJI/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_02_t_lh
> http://www.smarthome.com/4860/Leviton-51120-1-Whole-House-Surge-Suppressor-Surge-Protector/p.aspx
>
>
> and less likely (plus two are required, one for each leg)
> http://www.amazon.com/Square-D-SDSA1175CP-ARRESTER-LIGHTNG/dp/B002GUZ1NI
Also has minimal information and no ratings. If it only protects one
wire don't get it - get one made for a service protecting both wires. I
do like SquareD as a brand.
--
bud--
bud--
> mm wrote:
>> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>>
>> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>
> Stop buying junk. MOV surge protectors are really worthless junk. Here in
> 230v land, when they go, they often do so with a bang and sometimes catch
> fire.
The IEEE (largest association of electrical and electronic engineers in
the US) says that ">90% of both hard-wired and plug-in protectors use
MOVs to perform the voltage-limiting function. In most AC protectors,
they are the only significant voltage limiters.".
MOVs work fine.
In the US, since 1998, UL has required suppressors have a thermal
disconnect to disconnect failing MOVS. I have seen no reason to believe
fires are a problem on UL listed suppressors made since 1998. Would
think that "230v land" would have similar requirements.
>
> Look at TransTector ones. They use silicon avalance diodes which when compared
> to MOVs are indestructable. They are more expensive but in the long run cheaper
> as they don't fail like MOV ones.
If you get high ratings, MOV based suppressors are not likely to fail.
It is one reason why some suppressors can have warranties on connected
equipment.
You can, of course, buy what you want.
>
> You might also want to learn about how lightening works and how to avoid it.
>
> Contrary to what people believe (yes Franklin got it wrong) lightening flows
> from the GROUND UP. Once a path is opened from the ground, the polarity
> reverses and the usual flash you see flows downward.
Polarity reverses?
The usual process is for charge do descend in steps - a stepped leader.
When the charge gets close enough to the earth the final link is a
stroke from the earth to end of the stepped leader.
>
> If you place grounded sharp pointed objects on top of buildings, you will
> CREATE lightening.
There is not a lot of research on what end on a lightning rod (now
called air terminals) is most effective. The best information I have
seen is that a 5/8" diameter rounded point is more effective, and the
difference is minimal. Rods protect by being the highest point. They are
a safe "point of attachment" for the lightning that will occur anyway.
>
> If you place large "fuzzy" grounded objects on top of buildings, you will
> dissipate any charges that build up and reduce the chance of lightening
> strikes.
>
> I got rid of a lightening problem by placing a large 2m ham band (144mHz)
> antenna on my roof. It was a 12 foot beam with 10 vertical elements and
> 10 horizontal elements. At 144mHz it was an antenna, at DC (lightening)
> it was just a big blob of aluminum connected to ground. So as charges
> started to build up, they were dissipated.
There are commercial lightning protection systems that claim to work by
dissipating charge. Everything I have seen is that they don't work. I
believe they lost a court case in the US.
>
> When I moved, I took down the antenna, I wonder what my neighbors thought
> when the lightening returned. :-(
>
> Geoff.
>
--
bud--
hrho...@att.net
wrote:
Geoff:
Lightening is what Michael Jackson did to his face. Lightning is that
big electrical discharge from the sky <G>
Bob Hofmann
whit3rd
> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
Ask your home insurance agent. It's unlikely that the
prospect of homeowner repair of fire-safety items is
going to be highly regarded. Also ask if the damage
to your surge suppressor is covered by your insurance.
mm
wrote:
Yes, the Amazon ads seem to have less info than one would want on
something like this.
There are specs somewhere, adn I'll find them and compare with what
you've said.
I've been here 28 years and once I found smoke coming out of the
burglar alarm keypad/controller unit (yes, both) by the front door,
which might have been caused by lightning, although I didn't remember
any. Still the amount of vulerable equipment keeps growning and
growing.
Thanks, for this thread and the previous one, and thanks everybody.
Eike Lantzsch, ZP6CGE
> On Jan 30, 10:39 am, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com>
> wrote:
> > mm wrote:
> > > Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
> >
> > > At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
> >
> > When I moved, I took down the antenna, I wonder what my neighbors thought
> > when the lightening returned. :-(
> >
> > Geoff.
> >
> > --
> > Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
> > Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
>
> Geoff:
>
> Lightening is what Michael Jackson did to his face. Lightning is that
> big electrical discharge from the sky <G>
>
> Bob Hofmann
Well, it was en-lightening anyway ;-)
Kind regards, Eike
--
"The adventures may be mad, but the adventurer must be sane."
- G. K. Chesterton (1908)
Michael Kennedy
>>"whit3rd" <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:844078cf-ed6d->>493b-a693-2...@x17g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
If fixed properly, how would they know? As long as he isnt obviously
bodgeing something togeather it should be fine.
Boris Mohar
Leviton. Ground it well with as short ground wire as possible to good house
ground.
--
Boris
GS
> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>
> I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. When one of
> them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.
>
> I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
> those units that might have them.
>
> Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
> first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)
>
> I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
> repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.
>
> Items for sale, if interested:
>
> and less likely (plus two are required, one for each leg)http://www.amazon.com/Square-D-SDSA1175CP-ARRESTER-LIGHTNG/dp/B002GUZ1NI
Its easy to find expensive ones. I guess if you can figure out how to
take it apart
you can fix it. I bought one a few months ago for $35. Here is another
http://www.drillspot.com/products/122270/Square_D_SDSA1175_Surge_Arrestor_1_Phase_240VAC
Drillspot sells Grainger stuff.
greg
GS
> On Jan 30, 11:03 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> > At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>
> > I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. When one of
> > them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.
>
> > I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
> > those units that might have them.
>
> > Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
> > first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)
>
> > I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
> > repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.
>
> > Items for sale, if interested:
>
> > and less likely (plus two are required, one for each leg)http://www.amazon.com/Square-D-SDSA1175CP-ARRESTER-LIGHTNG/dp/B002GUZ1NI
>
> Its easy to find expensive ones. I guess if you can figure out how to
> take it apart
> Drillspot sells Grainger stuff.
>
> greg
So I showed you the same model you showed first. But, you do NOT need
TWO.
There seems like a lot of confusion on protectors and the
manufacturers seem
to have various schemes going on. Some of the very small portable
devices by
Tripplite have ratings that indicate higher amps than the regular
whole house protectors. I installed the 'secondary" protector in my
breaker box
and I probably have 10 other protectors all around the house.
You should not have to keep buying new ones. You got some kind of
problem that
requires attention.
greg
mm
<mike...@crap.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>"whit3rd" <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:844078cf-ed6d->>493b-a693-2...@x17g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>>>On Jan 30, 8:03 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>>>
>>> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>
>>Ask your home insurance agent. It's unlikely that the
>>prospect of homeowner repair of fire-safety items is
>>going to be highly regarded.
I didn't think of this until Michael posted but so what? Say I
repaired it and say I didn't do a good job: My insurance doesn't
require me to have a surge suprressor, so if I repair it and do a bad
job, and it doesn't cause damage nor does it prevent damage the next
time, they are no worse off than if I had never bought one. So they
should still pay.
I want the SurgeSupp is more so I don't have to go shopping again, and
read new instruction manuals.
>>Also ask if the damage
>>to your surge suppressor is covered by your insurance.
>
>If fixed properly, how would they know? As long as he isnt obviously
>bodgeing something togeather it should be fine.
Yes. Also, I hadn't even considered claiming damage to the surge
suppressor on my insureance.
So do they sell at retail the MOVs or other parts I would need rebuild
a surge suppressor.
GS
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:16:51 +0900, "Michael Kennedy"
>
>
> >>>"whit3rd" <whit...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:844078cf-ed6d->>493b-a693-227b095fc__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i?a63jfAD$z...@x17g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> >>>On Jan 30, 8:03 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >>> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> >>> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>
> >>Ask your home insurance agent. It's unlikely that the
> >>prospect of homeowner repair of fire-safety items is
> >>going to be highly regarded.
>
> I didn't think of this until Michael posted but so what? Say I
> repaired it and say I didn't do a good job: My insurance doesn't
> require me to have a surge suprressor, so if I repair it and do a bad
> job, and it doesn't cause damage nor does it prevent damage the next
> time, they are no worse off than if I had never bought one. So they
> should still pay.
>
> I want the SurgeSupp is more so I don't have to go shopping again, and
> read new instruction manuals.
>
> >>Also ask if the damage
> >>to your surge suppressor is covered by your insurance.
>
> >If fixed properly, how would they know? As long as he isnt obviously
> >bodgeing something togeather it should be fine.
>
> Yes. Also, I hadn't even considered claiming damage to the surge
> suppressor on my insureance.
>
> So do they sell at retail the MOVs or other parts I would need rebuild
> a surge suppressor.
Yes.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062574#
You can also rent a suppressor from the electric company which they
will
install in your meter. I have no idea how they would know if it goes
bad.
greg
GS
> On Jan 31, 11:57 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:16:51 +0900, "Michael Kennedy"
>
> > <mikek...@crap.comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > >>>"whit3rd" <whit...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Compare this to the Leviton Joule rating.
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=830&txtModelID=121
mm
wrote:
>On Jan 31, 9:45�am, GS <ze...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Jan 30, 11:03�am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>>
>> > At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>>
>> > I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. �When one of
>> > them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.
>>
>> > I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
>> > those units that might have them.
>>
>> > Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
>> > first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)
>>
>> > I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
>> > repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.
>>
>> > Items for sale, if interested:
>> > I can install it myself. �I'm considering, in ascending price order:http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG1240RC3-Type-2-Protection-Device/d......
>>
>> > and less likely (plus two are required, one for each leg)http://www.amazon.com/Square-D-SDSA1175CP-ARRESTER-LIGHTNG/dp/B002GUZ1NI
>>
>> Its easy to find expensive ones. I guess if you can figure out how to
>> take it apart
>> you can fix it. I bought one a few months ago for $35. Here is anotherhttp://www.drillspot.com/products/122270/Square_D_SDSA1175_Surge_Arre...
>> Drillspot sells Grainger stuff.
Thanks. Now it's 56 dollars. I see that Amazon has this 36 also
including shipping.
>>
>> greg
>
>So I showed you the same model you showed first. But, you do NOT need
>TWO.
Oh, thank you. I got confused by the drawing, at
http://surgelogic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/SDSA1175_IB_8291-0014F.pdf
which shows two for 3-phase (but only one for single-phase), and since
it has only 3 wires, one to the neutral, but none to the ground like
some others have.
Do you think I should to connect a surge suppressor to unused circuit
breakers? Some instructions say to do that for increased sensitivity
but others say nothing about it. Because the circuits I wanted to
use are often off or almost totally off, just the baseline portable tv
current or a cordless phone charger running.
It also says "Twist wires one half turn or more for
every 12 in. (305 mm) of length." That means when all three wires are
running together, right? In conduit or something? Once they
separate, even if the wires are stranded, there's no point to twisting
them, is there?
>There seems like a lot of confusion on protectors and the
>manufacturers seem
>to have various schemes going on. Some of the very small portable
>devices by
>Tripplite have ratings that indicate higher amps than the regular
>whole house protectors. I installed the 'secondary" protector in my
>breaker box
If thse are secondary, as they also call them, then where is the
primary? On the electric pole?
>and I probably have 10 other protectors all around the house.
>
>You should not have to keep buying new ones. You got some kind of
>problem that requires attention.
I've never even needed one. I was just planning ahead.
>
>greg
Thanks a lot, GB, and thanks everyone.
GS
> which shows two for 3-phase (but only one for single-phase), and since
> it has only 3 wires, one to the neutral, but none to the ground like
> some others have.
>
> Do you think I should to connect a surge suppressor to unused circuit
> breakers? Some instructions say to do that for increased sensitivity
> but others say nothing about it. Because the circuits I wanted to
> use are often off or almost totally off, just the baseline portable tv
> current or a cordless phone charger running.
Codes may be different. Some circuit breakers will work with two
wires, many
will NOT. Its specified in the breaker specs. It may be against code
in your area.
The picked up the cheapest Home Depot and it will work with two wires,
and
stranded wires.
> It also says "Twist wires one half turn or more for
> every 12 in. (305 mm) of length." That means when all three wires are
> running together, right? In conduit or something? Once they
> separate, even if the wires are stranded, there's no point to twisting
> them, is there?
Right.
> >There seems like a lot of confusion on protectors and the
> >manufacturers seem
> >to have various schemes going on. Some of the very small portable
> >devices by
> >Tripplite have ratings that indicate higher amps than the regular
> >whole house protectors. I installed the 'secondary" protector in my
> >breaker box
>
> If thse are secondary, as they also call them, then where is the
> primary? On the electric pole?
Secondary seems to mostly refer to devices near or attached to the
equipment.
Like, your whole house air conditioner might use a secondary
suppressor
near the unit, which is fed from the breaker box wiring.
Secondary devices will be attached via a breaker in any case.
Primary?? Maybe the one in the meter.
> >and I probably have 10 other protectors all around the house.
>
> >You should not have to keep buying new ones. You got some kind of
> >problem that requires attention.
>
> I've never even needed one. I was just planning ahead.
>
>
>
> >greg
Good going.
Bob Villa
William Sommerwerck
some effect on every other parallel line (lines connected to the same
phase). It doesn't matter whether any device is attached to the suppressor,
or is turned on.
whit3rd
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:16:51 +0900, "Michael Kennedy"
>
>
> >>>"whit3rd" <whit...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:844078cf-ed6d->>493b-a693-227b095fc__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i?a63jfAD$z...@x17g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> >>>On Jan 30, 8:03 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >>> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
> >>Ask your home insurance agent. It's unlikely that the
> >>prospect of homeowner repair of fire-safety items is
> >>going to be highly regarded.
>
> I didn't think of this until Michael posted but so what? Say I
> repaired it and say I didn't do a good job: My insurance doesn't
> require me to have a surge suprressor, so if I repair it and do a bad
> job, and it doesn't cause damage nor does it prevent damage the next
> time, they are no worse off than if I had never bought one. So they
> should still pay.
A whole-house suppressor is wired without any circuit breaker
protection, usually inside the circuit breaker box. Every item in
that box has a "UL" or other safety certification, and NONE are
intended for disassembly or repair. Your insurer may well claim
contributory negligence if the item has been modified or altered.
If something inside a 2 foot breaker box shoots 3 foot flames,
the house is at hazard.
Faulty fuses, breakers, or whole-house suppressors are intended
to remain safe (they're fail-safe devices); it's normal to replace
them when they fail.
bud--
It is intended for installation in a service panel. In the US, the
service panel (containing the service disconnect) has the neutral and
ground bonded together
In a subpanel (with separate neutral and ground bars) there would be
separate wires for the neutral and ground.
>
> Do you think I should to connect a surge suppressor to unused circuit
> breakers? Some instructions say to do that for increased sensitivity
> but others say nothing about it. Because the circuits I wanted to
> use are often off or almost totally off, just the baseline portable tv
> current or a cordless phone charger running.
It shouldn't matter.
(You are suppressing surges on the service busbars, not branch circuit.
Not obvious if you were saying something different.)
>
> It also says "Twist wires one half turn or more for
> every 12 in. (305 mm) of length." That means when all three wires are
> running together, right? In conduit or something? Once they
> separate, even if the wires are stranded, there's no point to twisting
> them, is there?
A surge is a very short-time event. Therefore it has relatively high
frequency components. The inductance of the wire is more important than
the resistance. Wire length is more important than it would seem. You
want a short connecting wires from the suppressor to the panel
connections. That is why the instructions say "keep the wire length as
short as possible. If the wires are in close proximity the wire
inductance is reduced. That is why the wires are slightly twisted.
>
>> There seems like a lot of confusion on protectors and the
>> manufacturers seem
>> to have various schemes going on. Some of the very small portable
>> devices by
>> Tripplite have ratings that indicate higher amps than the regular
>> whole house protectors. I installed the 'secondary" protector in my
>> breaker box
A useful rating for a MOV is its joule rating. UL does not have a
defined way of specifying joules. As a result some manufacturers are
using misleading or deceptive joule ratings on their products, which
puts honest manufacturers at a disadvantage. As a result, some
manufacturers no longer provide a joule rating. The amp rating is
equivalent, but defined. A high amp rating (like a high joule rating)
indicates a suppressor will have a long life. A plug-in suppressor with
high ratings could have an amp rating higher than a service panel
suppressor. (There is no possibility of a very high current on a branch
circuit; high current ratings just reflects a high joule rating.)
MOVs intrinsically try to limit the voltage across their terminals. In a
service panel the H-N voltages are limited (also H-H). That can result
in a high current to earth. Most of the energy in the incoming surge is
dumped to the earth. A small part of the energy is dissipated in the MOVs.
At a plug-in suppressor, the MOVs also limits the voltage H-G, N-G and
H-N. Because of the impedance of the ground wire, not much energy gets
dumped to the earth. But because of the impedance of the H and N, there
is similarly a very limited current that can flow. Energy dissipated in
the MOVs is surprisingly small (and there is another reason for this).
But the "ground potential" at the suppressor can be far different from
the service panel. All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to
the same suppressor and all external wires (power, phone, cable, ...)
need to go through the suppressor. The voltage on all wires is clamped
to the ground at the suppressor.
--
bud--
GS
> > which shows two for 3-phase (but only one for single-phase), and since
> > it has only 3 wires, one to the neutral, but none to the ground like
> > some others have.
>
> It is intended for installation in a service panel. In the US, the
> service panel (containing the service disconnect) has the neutral and
> ground bonded together
I have yet to see suppressor not intended to be connected to breakers
in a service
panel.
I also don't like to call these surge, but SPIKE yes.
Surges to me a re very slow increases in voltage over the
safe limit.
You can usually make local neutrals by connecting ground
to a neutral, or make it using an isolation transformer, which
makes ground to neutral noise non existent at that point.
greg
Fred
news:162bk6l0qi1ch7st6...@4ax.com:
> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>
Totally unnecessary. Call your power company about every other year and
file a report that your lights are blinking when the wind blows. They'll
send out a service truck to investigate with a guy we don't pay anywhere
near enough to risk his life working around the 23KV primary on the pole.
Ask him to check your house's connections at the pole for tightness,
paying special attention to the NEUTRAL connections, which are the ONLY
way your 120VAC can surge up to 240VAC if neutral comes loose and there's
a big load on the OTHER phase from the one your computer is on. While
he's there, ask him to inspect the grounding on your meter base and
verify its lightning gap hasn't been damaged by any hits. It's inside
the meter base and he's the only one with a replacement seal to install.
Please consider offering these great lineman a refreshing beverage to say
thank you for the free service they provide you. I usually show up with
a cold Coke for each of them as they are nesting the bucket and stowing
their HV gloves. I'm more of a shock to them than anything the
generators can produce....(c;] If it's quitting time when they finish, I
move from Coke to a quality beer as they've had a hard shift in the hot
sun. Guess who's power gets restored FIRST after the next storm!....(c;]
If your house if FIRMLY attached to the pole transformer, "surges" are
virtually impossible UNLESS you get hit by lightning. NO surge
protector, no matter how expensive, says anything about LIGHTNING
PROTECTOR, ever. That would be a lie. The 23KV primary phase of
America's 3 phase Tesla multiphase AC power system is quite stable. The
natural magnetic hysteresis of the 60 hz core in your distribution
transformer prevents any pulses from being sent to your house until the
lightning protector in its primary fuse holder explodes in defeat.
"Surge Protector" is a great sales gimmick. If you want to save your
computer, buy it a nice UPS to protect it from LOSING power, especially
during disk write operations where you can lose EVERYTHING on that drive.
If you're intent on spending money, please consider replacing your
breaker panel breakers on all electrical outlets and appliances with GFI
breakers, making it much less possible to kill a child sticking a metal
object into America's absurdly designed bladed receptacles designed in
1900. The only way to get shocked after their installation is to get
right across the powerline from hot to neutral, which rarely happens to
kill anyone. I support GFI installation 100%!
tm
"Fred" <nob...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9E7E9CF2166...@74.209.131.13...
I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
As to the "free" service, that is not true. We pay for the service in the
distribution fees on
the electric bill. So it's the same as "free health care".
As to the service guys getting paid what they deserve, that's between them
and the
utility. I would offer them a well deserved chilly also.
tm
Jeffrey Angus
Sigh.... NO.
Parallel though they may be, they really only protect things
that are "beyond" (or very close) to them. Other branches
have enough series impedance as far as transients are concerned
to deliver on hell of a spike regardless of what a MOV is doing
50-100' of wiring away
Jeff
Michael A. Terrell
tm wrote:
>
> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
the US to use a GFCI to power either.
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
tm
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQ...@earthlink.com...
>
> tm wrote:
>>
>> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
>
>
> No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
> seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>
>
> --
So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
anyway.
tm
Michael A. Terrell
tm wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQ...@earthlink.com...
> >
> > tm wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
> >
> >
> > No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> > freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
> > seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> > the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>
> anyway.
A GFCI won't protect a kid from sticking something into an outlet and
killing themselves if they are across line & neutral.
tm
>
> tm wrote:
>>
>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQ...@earthlink.com...
>> >
>> > tm wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
>> >
>> >
>> > No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
>> > freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I
>> > haven't
>> > seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
>> > the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>>
>> So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
>> anyway.
>
>
> A GFCI won't protect a kid from sticking something into an outlet and
> killing themselves if they are across line & neutral.
>
>
A young child will usually not be dexterous enough to simultaneously stick a
bare metal object into both line and neutral. Even if they do, the main
current
path will not be through the chest. They most likely stick a metal object
into
the line terminal while sitting on the floor and get the current through the
body.
The GFI device will trip under those conditions doing exactly what they were
designed for.
But it's really your choice how safe you want the environment for your young
kids.
But you know this and are only looking for a pissing contest.
tm
Michael A. Terrell
tm wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:HZydnd9wZo9aCNrQ...@earthlink.com...
> >
> > tm wrote:
> >>
> >> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >> news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQ...@earthlink.com...
> >> >
> >> > tm wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> >> > freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I
> >> > haven't
> >> > seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> >> > the US to use a GFCI to power either.
> >>
> >> So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
> >> anyway.
> >
> >
> > A GFCI won't protect a kid from sticking something into an outlet and
> > killing themselves if they are across line & neutral.
> >
> >
>
> A young child will usually not be dexterous enough to simultaneously stick a
> bare metal object into both line and neutral. Even if they do, the main
> current path will not be through the chest. They most likely stick a metal
> object into the line terminal while sitting on the floor and get the current
> through the body.
That doesn't stop them from chewing on a cord, or getting hold of a
lamp they knocked off a table.
> The GFI device will trip under those conditions doing exactly what they were
> designed for.
Um, no.
> But it's really your choice how safe you want the environment for your young
> kids.
>
> But you know this and are only looking for a pissing contest.
If anyone is pissing, it's you. Most outlets are no where near a
ground path other than the ground terminal in that outlet. Ones in a
kitchen, bathroom or outdoors should have GFCI protection. That's what
the US electrical code calls for. It can either be built into an outlet
for around $10, or into a circut braker for $25 or more. A GFCI outlet
can protect regualr outlets that are down stream from it. There is no
reason for whole house GFCI. In the US, with split phase 120/240, it
would require a pair of sensors, and trip up to 200 amps. Only a madman
would require that when a single circuit can be protected for lower cost
and with a higher level of safety. In fact, lights and outlets in a
room should be on seperate circuits so you aren't left in the dark if
something takes out the outlet circuit.
Keep pissing if you want to. I deal in facts, not fantasy.
Fred
> No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I
haven't
> seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>
>
So, you're saying it's ok if the motor windings are leaking to, or worse,
connected to the chassis of the fridge as long as it's grounded? That's
the only thing that makes the GFCI trip....about 10ma of something's
wrong.
Back in the 1980's, I submitted a Navy Beneficial Suggestion that GFCIs
be installed at all electronic benches in our calibration and test
equipment repair facilities after an apprentice technician nearly killed
herself pulling a TV-7 tube tester out of its case, inadvertently not
unplugging it. The TV-7 has a big rheostat right close to the case on
the bottom (sitting up) with exposed windings where the slidewire contact
is. She really got burned as she was also touching exposed, highly
grounded metal parts of her workbench (another benny sugg submission).
Months went by and Navy accepted my suggestion system wide, not just in
our shop, handing me a very nice check for both suggestions.
We had some equipment that tripped the GFCI every time, frustrating the
hell out of the bench techs who blamed me. 3 benches, themselves,
tripped out every time it was reset.
Leaking line filters in every case, and the Navy loves line filters, were
the problem. Once the leaking line filters were replaced, making the
equipment SAFE should the ground connection become open, the problem
disappeared. Equipment in the shipyard became safer to operate because
of it. Some metal cased test equipment no longer "bit" its user with low
AC voltages on its grounded case, something we never figured out. It
must have been miswired grounds in the ships crazy balanced 115VAC line
systems. GFCIs fixed it because they instantly detected faulty line
filters, transformers with windings touching the frames or miswired
equipment that had been used for years.
None of my GFCIs on any appliances trips, except during major
thunderstorms. If they do trip, there's a reason....leaky appliances.
One hot water tank ago, there was a heater coil shorted to its metal
calrod sleeve quite near the balance point of the 240VAC line. This
ground fault only shorted out around 12% of the element's resistor so the
element just ran hot in one place, but cold in another from the
imbalanced load shooting high current through the little ground wire.
The GFCI found this short as soon as it happened, eliminating a potential
electrical fire hazard if the current had overrun the flimsy ground wire.
I think many electrical fires could be stopped if GFCI were required on
all circuits....including faulty appliances that trip them.
Fred
@speranza.aioe.org:
> But you know this and are only looking for a pissing contest.
>
>
...rationalizing NOT spending the money for GFCIs.....
Fred
> That doesn't stop them from chewing on a cord, or getting hold of a
> lamp they knocked off a table.
>
>
The 7ma current-to-ground trips the GFCI every time under your stretching
scenario for the pissing contest. Yes, the kid would get an
instantaneous shock in the millisecond range, to no harm, but there's
plenty of leakage from hot to ground to trip the GFCI if he bites into a
wire, even if he's across the neutral. I've heard this BS
rationalization before trying to save money because they are expensive.
But, we tested it. We took an old metal 2-wire Porter-Cable electric
drill and ran a bright yellow wire from hot to the case of it....creating
the electrical fault. If you stayed totally insulated from ground, the
drill would run, but that damned GFCI was uncanny finding you out. Body
leakage to the air Xc would even trip it. If you stood in your sneakers
(insulated!) and touched the hot drill case, the GFCI tripped from the
capacitor your foot made with the concrete under the insulated sole. If
you started by touching NEUTRAL, THEN touching the hot drill motor, the
trip was instantaneous, and you barely could feel the shock DIRECTLY
ACROSS THE AC LINE before the GFCI tripped. Your idiot rationalization
with the little kid across the line wouldn't wash....especially if he was
sitting on a floor, even a wooden one with a vinyl top. (Click), dead
circuit, live kid.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> I think many electrical fires could be stopped if GFCI were required on
> all circuits....including faulty appliances that trip them.
Here in Israel they are required by the electric company BEFORE main breakers.
You can't get a new connection without one, and every few years there is
an advertising campaign to get people to install them in old homes.
We have 230 volt single phase service, and 230 volt 3 phase split into three
separate circuits, so we don't have the 120/240 problem in the US that
was previously discussed.
tm
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com> wrote in message
news:slrnikg43...@cable.mendelson.com...
I did a brief web search and was surprised that as many as 500 children (?)
a year in the US
are electrocuted. Before the GFIs were required in wet areas by code, it was
over 800 per year.
tm
Fred
> Here in Israel
Sorry, Geoff. It's not your fault, but I cannot forget my 3 friends who
died....ever.
It was no accident.
By the luck of the draw, I wasn't one of the dead.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com> wrote in
> news:slrnikg43...@cable.mendelson.com:
>
>> Here in Israel
>
> Sorry, Geoff. It's not your fault, but I cannot forget my 3 friends who
> died....ever.
>
> http://gtr5.com/
To quote the website:
"the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty
parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They
concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack.
Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was
an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They
simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder."
Israel is a democracy, and has a very active High Court of Justice. The concept
of people suing the state for compensation is very much alive here.
Although it is over fourty years, and it might be impossible to find
anyone who was in charge that can testify, you might want to consider,
as a group, filing a law suit against the IDF for compensation and
information.
Geoff.
bud--
A surge is defined (IEEE) as a "subcycle disturbance"
A "swell" is a disturbance that lasts from 1/2 cycle to a few seconds.
Longer is "temporary overvoltage".
A "spike" is essentially the same as "surge".
>
> You can usually make local neutrals by connecting ground
> to a neutral,
Not obvious to me what you are saying, but in the US connections
between ground and neutral downstream from the service not allowed (some
specific exceptions).
bud--
>
> <...>
> If your house if FIRMLY attached to the pole transformer, "surges" are
> virtually impossible UNLESS you get hit by lightning.
"You" don't have to get hit. Strikes to power lines can cause damaging
surges into a building. So can close strikes. Surges can also enter on
cable and phone wires. And there are other sources of damaging surges.
> NO surge
> protector, no matter how expensive, says anything about LIGHTNING
> PROTECTOR, ever. That would be a lie.
The surge guru at the NIST looked at essentially a worst case event - a
100,000A lightning strike to the high voltage wire on a utility pole
(with transformer) behind a house with typical urban overhead
distribution. There are multiple paths to earth. The surge to the house
was 10,000A max for each service wire to the house. Service panel
suppressors are readily available with higher ratings. The probability
of a worse strike is close to zero.
You can protect from very close lightning strikes.
Lightning strikes to a building, of course, require lightning rods.
> The 23KV primary phase of
> America's 3 phase Tesla multiphase AC power system is quite stable. The
> natural magnetic hysteresis of the 60 hz core in your distribution
> transformer prevents any pulses from being sent to your house until the
> lightning protector in its primary fuse holder explodes in defeat.
Doesn't need the transformer. In the example above, a utility lightning
arrestor (installed on all the distribution transformers around here)
dumps the strike to earth via the grounding electrode on the pole. Since
the resistance to earth of that electrode is a few ohms at best, the
"ground potential" at the pole rises thousands of volts above "absolute
earth potential", and more particularly, above the earth potential at
the house. Since the secondary neutrals are connected to the "ground" at
the pole, this causes a large surge on the neutral to the house. A
significant portion of that surge is transferred to the hot wires by
inductive and capacitive coupling.
Usually the next worst to lightning for surges are normal and abnormal
utility operations. Potentially one of the worst of these is switching
of power factor correction capacitors. Utility produced surges can also
get into a building and cause damage to equipment.
>
> "Surge Protector" is a great sales gimmick.
It is a "gimmick" use by the IEEE in an excellent guide on surges and
surge protection at:
<http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf>
And by the US-NIST in a surge guide at.
<http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf>
This one is less technical and aimed at the unwashed masses.
Both say surges from lightning and other sources are a problem and you
can protect against them.
===============
In something that hasn't come up in this thread - the NIST guide, using
US insurance information as one source, suggests that high voltage
between power and cable/telephone/.... wires causes much of the damage,
not just a surge reaching equipment through the power wires. The IEEE
surge guide has an example of such damage starting pdf page 40.
To protect from high voltage between power and phone/cable wires, the
ground wire from the entrance protector for both phone and cable has to
be short and connect to the power earthing system near the power
service. If wires are too long, surges coming in on phone or cable
wiring can produce high voltage between those wires and power wires.
That is what is shown in the IEEE guide example starting pdf page 40.
With a large surge, the building ground can rise thousands of volts
above "absolute earth potential". Much of the protection is that power
and phone and cable wires rise together.
Particularly for expensive equipment with power and phone/cable
connection a plug-in suppressor may be useful. All interconnected
equipment needs to be connected to the same suppressor, and all external
wires - phone/cable/... - need to go through the suppressor. The voltage
on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor. (This is also
in the example in the IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.)
--
bud--
bud--
> tm wrote:
>> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
>
>
> No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
> seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>
It was never against the code to use GFCIs on refrigeration.
But the NEC used to have exceptions for GFCI requirements in garages and
basements where a refrigerator/freezer would be plugged in. Those
exceptions are gone.
Plug-in refrigerators/freezers using 15/20A 120V receptacles in
commercial kitchens are required to be on GFCI protected receptacles.
The UL allowed leakage for refrigerators/freezers is about 0.5mA.
Tripping a GFCI means the appliance has a problem.
--
bud--
bud--
> Fred wrote:
>> I think many electrical fires could be stopped if GFCI were required on
>> all circuits....including faulty appliances that trip them.
AFCIs are the device intended to save the world. They trip on an arc of
about 5A (the old ones needed an arc more like 60A). For new wiring they
are generally required in a home when a GFCI is not required. The 2011
NEC may required AFCI protection when receptacles are replaced. They
also trip on a ground fault of about 30mA - not for protection of people.
>
> Here in Israel they are required by the electric company BEFORE main breakers.
>
> You can't get a new connection without one, and every few years there is
> an advertising campaign to get people to install them in old homes.
>
> We have 230 volt single phase service, and 230 volt 3 phase split into three
> separate circuits, so we don't have the 120/240 problem in the US that
> was previously discussed.
>
There are several systems for handling "ground" wires. The basic
interest is that "ground" wires essentially be at earth potential, and
that contact between a hot wire and ground trips a breaker.
In the US, the ground wire system is connected to earthing electrode(s)
at the building. This is likely the case in other countries as well.
The US also requires the neutral and ground be bonded at the service
disconnect. If there is a hot-to-ground short the path is ground wire to
service panel, G-N bond to neutral, service neutral back to the utility
transformer. This metal path produces a high current to trip the
breaker. The earth essentially plays no part because the resistance of
the earth path is far to high to trip a breaker.
The UK, from what I have read, has several ways to handle the "ground
system". One is to earth the neutral at the utility transformer, not
have a N-G bond at the building, and not run a ground wire with the hot
and neutral service wires. Ground faults would return through the earth
and not produce enough current to trip a breaker. I believe that these
systems require an RCD (trips on H-N current imbalance like a GFCI) as
the service breaker. The fault current through the earth does trip the
RCD. (The trip level is far higher than the 4-6mA for a GFCI.)
Could be what you have in Israel.
--
bud--
Michael A. Terrell
Read furter upstream where they are a=talking about whole hhouse
GFI. That is the Eurropean name, used on 240 volt service. It doesn't
trip at 7 mA.
Michael A. Terrell
Try to get someone to replace a refrigerator that trips a GFCI once
every six months.
lsmartino
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, I guess that I´m fortunate then. I live in a small appartment
and I have 4 outlets in my kitchen which are feed by two separate
circuits, with a dedicated circuit breaker for each one. Each circuit
is also protected by a GFCI. Each GFCI controls two outlets, including
the GFCI itself. In one of the circuits I have a refrigerator and a
microwave oven plugged in, and the GFCI has never tripped. I´m sure
the GFCI works because it trips when the test button is pressed
turning off everything plugged to it including the refrigerator outlet
which is wired to the output of the GFCI.
The refrigerator is an LG, less than six years old. I guess it is
pretty well insulated, both electrically and thermally.
Of course, I agree that an old fridge probably has enough leakage to
trip a GFCI given certain conditions, but I think that with newer
refrigerators that shouldn´t be an issue.
lsmartino
> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>
> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>
> I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. When one of
> them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.
>
> I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
> those units that might have them.
>
> Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
> first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)
>
> I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
> repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.
>
> Items for sale, if interested:
>
> and less likely (plus two are required, one for each leg)http://www.amazon.com/Square-D-SDSA1175CP-ARRESTER-LIGHTNG/dp/B002GUZ1NI
I think that repairing a whole house surge protector is like trying to
repair a circuit breaker. OK, technically it can be done, but there is
no way to reliabily test them for performance after the repair. For
instance, after opening a 20A circuit breaker to "fix it", there is no
way to be sure that the breaker will trip at their designated
ampacity. The same applies to a whole house surge protector... there
is no way to test it for reliability after the repair. Also, there is
the risk that the repaired protector catches fire when the time to
clamp a surge comes if it wasn´t properly repaired. To me trying to
save 100 or 200 US$ is no excuse for taking the risk of burning down a
whole house.
Michael A. Terrell
> and I have 4 outlets in my kitchen which are feed by two separate
> circuits, with a dedicated circuit breaker for each one. Each circuit
> is also protected by a GFCI. Each GFCI controls two outlets, including
> the GFCI itself. In one of the circuits I have a refrigerator and a
> the GFCI works because it trips when the test button is pressed
> turning off everything plugged to it including the refrigerator outlet
> which is wired to the output of the GFCI.
>
> The refrigerator is an LG, less than six years old. I guess it is
> pretty well insulated, both electrically and thermally.
>
> Of course, I agree that an old fridge probably has enough leakage to
> trip a GFCI given certain conditions, but I think that with newer
Refigerators or freezers are reqired to be on a circuit by
themselves. A lot of older homes, or places that were enver inspected
didn't do this. I generally had three dedicated circuits to a kitchen,
and had the ceiling lights on a fourth, shared lighting only circuit.
If a refrigerator or similar appliance with a three wire cord is bad
enough to trip a GFCI, either it will stay at a low leakage, or quickly
reach a point to trip the breaker.
A lot of the leakage current comes from capacitance between the motor
windings, and the motor's core. New or old, this will always exist.
There is a lot higher risk of food posioning that electrocution from a
faulty refigerator or freezer.
bud--
>
> Refigerators or freezers are reqired to be on a circuit by
> themselves.
Not in the NEC.
William Sommerwerck
> on a circuit by themselves.
They aren't in my condo. And even a separate circuit doesn't keep the
transients from propagating to lines on the same phase.
Michael A. Terrell
The NEC is the minimum code requirements. Every place I've lived
required it.