Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?

[Bill Moinihan]

> What is an inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
> https://s13.postimg.org/7jivra81j/garage_lights.jpg
>
> There are four of these sets of lights, each of which holds 4 flourescent
> bulbs, which keep flickering, burning out, and making humming sounds.

What do you think, honestly, of this idea?

Costco has supposedly "universal" LED replacement tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/qei7hifs7/1_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg

The price is currently $7.70 per tube:
https://s21.postimg.org/8pqgpw413/2_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg

So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

At home I compared them by size to the original tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/khec0oynb/4_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Where I can't find any T2 or T4 or T8 or T12 designation at all:
https://s21.postimg.org/4x6ya5oiv/5_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

All four of the 4-tube boxes hum and flicker and have bad bulbs:
https://s21.postimg.org/ne1d0z4h3/6_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Opening them up, I find only about half still working:
https://s21.postimg.org/9lrjj333b/7_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

I can't find the ballast nor the T2,T4,T8 designation inside.
All it says on the metal is "USE RAPID START LAMPS":
https://s21.postimg.org/jlhul8oyv/8_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Where's the ballast?
Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)

[Bill Moinihan]

Bill Moinihan wrote:

> So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
> https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

> Where's the ballast?
> Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
> What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)

What are the pros and cons of just replacing the bulbs with LEDs?
(Instead of putting in four new LED fixture assemblys?)

The Costco item number for the 2-pack I bought is 1063293.

Here is a link to the Costco 4pack (but I got the 2 pack).
http://www.costco.com/Feit-4-FT-LED-Replacement-Tubes-4-pack--.product.100235288.html

Here is a web page about these bulbs:
http://www.costcoweekender.com/2016/09/feit-electric-4ft-led-linear-tubes-costco-1063293.html

Here is the Feit Electric web site, who is the manufacturer I think:
http://www.feit.com/led-lamps/led_linear_tubes/t48-841-led

That web site says they are a "Direct replacement for fluorescent 4ft T8 and
T12 lamps" and the specs they give at that web site are:
Feit Electric Company, Pico Rivera CA, www.feit.com in...@feit.com
Order number T48/41K/LED/2
Color Temperature: 4100K
Life Year: 45.7
Life: 45.7 years / 50,000 hours
MOL: 48" Long
Life Hours: 50,000
Base: G13
Energy Used: 17 Watts
Lumens: 1700
Rotating Endcap for Adjusting Light Direction
Use only in fluorescent fixtures with operable fluorescent ballast
Warranty is 5 years at 3 hours per day 866-326-2852

The box says, in multiple places.
1. "Convert your old fluorescent fixture to led by simply replacing the
tubes".
2. "No rewiring, use existing fixture".
3. Simply remove any 4 ft. fluorescent tube and replace with these new led
tubes!"

The package says "1700 lumens, 41000K Cool White, 17 Watts, 50,000 life
hours*, uses 47% less energy."

The asterisk on the "50,000 life hours" says "Rated life is based on using
in fixture with T8 electronic ballast. Life will vary depending on ballast
type".

What type of ballast do I have?

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/1/2016 7:07 PM, Bill Moinihan wrote:

>
> Costco has supposedly "universal" LED replacement tubes:
> https://s21.postimg.org/qei7hifs7/1_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg
>
> The price is currently $7.70 per tube:
> https://s21.postimg.org/8pqgpw413/2_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg
>
> So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
> https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

>

> Where's the ballast?
> Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
> What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)
>

R-12 is a fat tube that is now obsolete. T-8 is a newer version. Look at
the existing tubes to see what you have now. The ballast is under the
metal cover in the center.

Since you have the new tubes, put them in and see what happens. If it
works, great, if not, take them back. Let us know the result.

[Bill Moinihan]

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> R-12 is a fat tube that is now obsolete. T-8 is a newer version. Look at
> the existing tubes to see what you have now. The ballast is under the
> metal cover in the center.
>
> Since you have the new tubes, put them in and see what happens. If it
> works, great, if not, take them back. Let us know the result.

I called Feit Electric at their 800 number 866-326-2852 to ask what type o9f
ballast I have and the lady told me to read off what the old bulb said, and
the moment I said it was 40 watts, she told me I have a T12 ballast.

I'm not so sure what ballast I have because I put those replacement
fluorescent bulbs from Ace in myself, and there's no guarantee that I knew
what I was doing when I put them in, so, they could be a T8 ballast which
the lady told me was 15W to 18W.

I had brought an old bulb with me, as I recall, but there's no guarantee
that the previous owner didn't put in the wrong fluorescent bulbs either.

Anyway, she said the Feit bulbs I bought from Costco will work with either a
T8 ballast or a T12 ballast, but that they'll last less long with a T12
ballast.

I told her that some of my four 4-bulb fixtures are humming and she said
that means the ballast is bad, and not to put the LED bulbs in those
ballasts.

She also said that if the LED bulbs flicker or don't go on, to pull them out
as that means they're not compatible with the fixture.

If the bulbs don't work, she recommended the Feit Costco item #1057373 which
is a $60 shop light 2 pack "linkable" set:
http://www.costco.com/4%E2%80%99-Linkable-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain,-2-pack.product.100284402.html

I guess what "linkable" means is that I can put the two of them together,
somehow, to look like one unit? (Reading the reviews, it appears that they
have a receptacle on them, so that's what it probably means, but the
reviewer wasn't sure, and Feit doesn't say what 'linkable' means either).

This review says T12 lamps have been banned (I didn't know that):
http://www.designingwithleds.com/review-costcos-feit-led-shop-light-with-integral-lamps/

[Meanie]

On 11/1/2016 7:23 PM, Bill Moinihan wrote:
> Bill Moinihan wrote:
>
>> So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
>> https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>> Where's the ballast?
>> Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
>> What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)
>
> What are the pros and cons of just replacing the bulbs with LEDs?
> (Instead of putting in four new LED fixture assemblys?)
>

Cost, unless you find equivalent fixtures at the same price of the lamps.

The lamps you have look like T12. That means, according to the LED info,
your LEDs will not reach the 50,000 hours because you are using T12
ballasts.

[Bill Moinihan]

Meanie wrote:

> The lamps you have look like T12. That means, according to the LED info,
> your LEDs will not reach the 50,000 hours because you are using T12
> ballasts.

You are correct.

All 16 of the 4-foot fluorescent bulbs said they were 40 watts, rapid start,
average life 12,000 hours.
https://s18.postimg.org/llp51oemh/01_all_bulbs_appear_to_be_40w_t12_bulbs.jpg

Of the four ceiling mounted units, three worked fine either with four
T12/40W fluorescent bulbs or with four T8 LED bulbs.
https://s22.postimg.org/8hx6ech7l/03_4_t8_led_bulbs_work_just_fine.jpg

The one ceiling unit that was humming badly had two ballasts inside when I
removed the center covering steel plate:
https://s13.postimg.org/kekhhvot3/04_two_T40_ballasts.jpg

Both ballasts were of the same type, with a sticker on each saying
Universal Therm-o-matic rapid start ballast
For two F40W T12/RS lamps, high power factor
Cat No 446-LR-TC-P, 120V, 60Hertz, 0.8Amp line
Universal Mfg. Corp, Paterson NJ, Made in USA
Class P Automatic resetting thermal protected
https://s11.postimg.org/orqbysecj/02_the_ballast_is_40_W_T12.jpg

Even though only one ballast is humming badly, I found the oddest situation
when I put in either just one known-good fluorescent bulb or just 1 of the
new LED bulbs.

Only one lane worked with just one bulb, which was this lane, which I'll
call lane 2 since it's the second one from the outside:
https://s15.postimg.org/4gu6scm0r/a_lane2_is_working.jpg

But when I put the single bulb in any other lane (leaving the rest of the
lanes empty) the bulb didn't light up (whether it was fluorescent or LED).

Is there any way to tell which two of the four lanes *each* ballast
controls?

Does the one good ballast control the two inside lanes?
https://s17.postimg.org/tk1zfwckv/two_inside_lanes.jpg

Or does one ballast control the two lanes next to each other?
https://s16.postimg.org/uycmzw2wl/two_lanes_next_to_each_other.jpg

Or does the one ballast control every other lane?
https://s12.postimg.org/vqlyluwa5/every_other_lane.jpg

[Meanie]

A four lamp fixture with two ballasts will operate two lamps each. One
will control the outer lamps and the other will control the inner lamps.
To determine what ballast controls what lamps, you need to follow a wire
to the tombstone (pin) connection of the lamp. For example, follow the
yellow wire to one of the connectors. If it's the inner lamp, then that
ballast controls those two lamps and the other will control the outer two.

[Bill Moinihan]

Meanie wrote:

> A four lamp fixture with two ballasts will operate two lamps each.

I've looked this up last night, watching videos and googling how the things
work so I agree with you that it's 1 ballast for 2 lamps.

My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact). So
it's probably no longer sold since it's most likely "magnetorestrictive",
which means that it squeezes an iron core at 120 cycles per second (which is
causing the loud hum in one of the two ballasts).

Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to
be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.

> One will control the outer lamps and the other will control the inner lamps.

Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner.
Is that the standard setup?

> To determine what ballast controls what lamps, you need to follow a wire
> to the tombstone (pin) connection of the lamp.

Yes. I saw videos where people followed those wires.
I like the name "tombstone", as it fits the rounded-top rectangular shape.

I also found out that a T12 is 12/8ths of an inch in diameter, so, just
looking at the lamps, I should have known that the diameter indicated a T12
while the diameter of the LEDs indicated a T8 (8/8ths of an inch), although
neither seems to be that large in diameter in actuality.

> should indicate For example, follow the

> yellow wire to one of the connectors. If it's the inner lamp, then that
> ballast controls those two lamps and the other will control the outer two.

Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors:
The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps.
It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of
those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other
end of the second of those two lamps.

I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in
looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1
replacement.

I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the
entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement?

[Andy Burns]

Bill Moinihan wrote:

> My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact).

> Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
> found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to
> be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.

I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent
tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the
Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually
involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there?

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <nvcsif$aqf$4...@news.mixmin.net>, m...@example.com says...

>
>
> Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors:
> The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps.
> It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of
> those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other
> end of the second of those two lamps.
>
> I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in
> looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1
> replacement.
>
> I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the
> entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement?

For about $ 20 you can get a single electronic ballast that will run all
4 tubes. Then put in the newer T8 bulbs.

You will have to follow the wiring diagram that is on the ballast as it
will be different from the old one. The new ones are made to fit in the
same bracket/screw holes as one of the older ones.

[mhoo...@gmail.com]

i replaced all mine with led tubes that run directly off of 110v. ditch the ballasts, they draw a lot of current . i bought the tubes from earthled.com . have had them 18 months so far, and they are great. work well in 10 deg winter garage too, no flicker. make sure your tombstones arent shunted( both terminals connected together internally). some are , some arent, some just have a jumper wire you can cut.

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Bill Moinihan <m...@example.com> wrote:
>> What is an inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
>> https://s13.postimg.org/7jivra81j/garage_lights.jpg
>>
>> There are four of these sets of lights, each of which holds 4 flourescent
>> bulbs, which keep flickering, burning out, and making humming sounds.
>
> What do you think, honestly, of this idea?

It's bad, but not by intent.

> Costco has supposedly "universal" LED replacement tubes:
> https://s21.postimg.org/qei7hifs7/1_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg
>
> The price is currently $7.70 per tube:
> https://s21.postimg.org/8pqgpw413/2_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg
>
> So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
> https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>
> At home I compared them by size to the original tubes:
> https://s21.postimg.org/khec0oynb/4_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>
> Where I can't find any T2 or T4 or T8 or T12 designation at all:
> https://s21.postimg.org/4x6ya5oiv/5_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Looks like a standard T12 bulb. It's real easy to test though. Each "T" in
a bulb designator is 1/8th of an inch. T8s are 1 inch in diameter for
example. T5 is 5/8th inch etc.

> All four of the 4-tube boxes hum and flicker and have bad bulbs:
> https://s21.postimg.org/ne1d0z4h3/6_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>
> Opening them up, I find only about half still working:
> https://s21.postimg.org/9lrjj333b/7_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>
> I can't find the ballast nor the T2,T4,T8 designation inside.
> All it says on the metal is "USE RAPID START LAMPS":
> https://s21.postimg.org/jlhul8oyv/8_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>
> Where's the ballast?
> Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
> What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)

LED retrofits are usually real stupid in practice as there's no point of
installing "efficient" lighting in an old shitty fixture. Running LEDs off
an old magnetic ballast is is just way convoluted. Ballasts die all the
time anyways and if they go, they're likely to take anything connected to
them with it.

The best move is get a new fixture. It will have a new electronic ballast
and will take better skinnier flourescent bulbs. It will be the best of
all worlds- cheap bulbs, no flicker and good colored qualities. LEDs can't
touch that, especially cheapo stuff at the discount warehouse.

The last ballast I replaced was in an 8 foot fixture that could not be
moved without messing up the ceiling. That was the only compelling reason
to just leave it alone, plus the owner still had supply of those bulbs.

[Meanie]

On 11/2/2016 10:17 AM, Bill Moinihan wrote:

>
> Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
> found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to
> be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.
>

Correct. T12 are obsolete.

>
> Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner.
> Is that the standard setup?
>

Yes. The other set up would be a single four lamp ballast.

>
> Yes. I saw videos where people followed those wires.
> I like the name "tombstone", as it fits the rounded-top rectangular shape.
>
> I also found out that a T12 is 12/8ths of an inch in diameter, so, just
> looking at the lamps, I should have known that the diameter indicated a T12
> while the diameter of the LEDs indicated a T8 (8/8ths of an inch), although
> neither seems to be that large in diameter in actuality.

Correct. A T8 is supposed to be 1 inch in diameter.

>
>
> Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors:
> The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps.
> It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of
> those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other
> end of the second of those two lamps.
>
> I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in
> looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1
> replacement.
>
> I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the
> entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement?
>

Ballasts are now becoming universal. In that, I mean, they can
accommodate voltage of 120 to 277 and they no longer have two wires of
each color. Instead, they offer one red and two blues. Each of those
wires connects with the two wires from each lamp. Thus, the single red
will connect to the two yellows, one blue will connect to two blues and
the other blue will connect to the two reds.

Unfortunately, inexpensive replacements usually mean cheap ballasts
which will not last long. Also keep in mind if you continue to use
fluorescent fixtures, when a lamp is burned out, it is best to replace
asap to ensure long life of the ballast. When a lamp isn't working, the
ballast continuously attempts igniting the non-working lamp and that
decreases the life of the ballast.

[Meanie]

When LEDs were first available as replacements for tubed fluorescent,
they had to be direct wired (removal of ballasts). Now they've made LEDs
to use the existing ballasts as it's driver. Though, that could still
differ based on geographic location.

[Meanie]

Not sure where you obtain your info but LED lamps offer a wide range of
lumen output and color output and they don't flicker unless they are
cheap LEDs. The price of fluorescent tubes are increasing, even T8s
while LEDs are still decreasing.

As I stated in another reply, fluorescent lamps can last a very long
time if they remain on all day or use a program start ballast. The
constant on/off is what kills them prematurely. LEDs can handle the
on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
manufactures lifetime claim.

[Bill Moinihan]

Cydrome Leader wrote:

>> What do you think, honestly, of this idea?
>
> It's bad, but not by intent.

Thanks, as I want brutal honesty in all the answers.

What's good is that the LEDs "supposedly" save about 50% in energy costs
(they say). What's bad is that I don't see how that can happen given we're
still using the old T12 ballasts, which controls the current, right?

What's really bad is that the T12 ballast will burn out the T8 LEDs quicker
(how quick? Dunno.) so maybe I don't get the long life either.

One really good thing is that overdriving these LED lights makes the garage
light up like daylight now. It's amazingly bright with 16 of these LEDs in
place (actually, only 12 because one fixture has one or maybe two bad
ballasts).

>> Where I can't find any T2 or T4 or T8 or T12 designation at all:
>> https://s21.postimg.org/4x6ya5oiv/5_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>
> Looks like a standard T12 bulb. It's real easy to test though. Each "T" in
> a bulb designator is 1/8th of an inch. T8s are 1 inch in diameter for
> example. T5 is 5/8th inch etc.

I measured with a ruler.
a. The T8 LED is actually 1 inch in diameter (8/8ths).
b. The T12 40W fluorescents are only 1-3/8ths (so it's actually a T11)

> LED retrofits are usually real stupid in practice as there's no point of
> installing "efficient" lighting in an old shitty fixture. Running LEDs off

> an old magnetic ballast is just way convoluted. Ballasts die all the

> time anyways and if they go, they're likely to take anything connected to
> them with it.

This is a good point in that the original T12 ballasts are due to die sooner
than the LED bulbs will die, especially since the original ballasts are so
old that they're made in the USA (which means they're really old).

And when the original ballasts die, the T8 LED bulbs will be useless.

> The best move is get a new fixture. It will have a new electronic ballast
> and will take better skinnier flourescent bulbs. It will be the best of
> all worlds- cheap bulbs, no flicker and good colored qualities. LEDs can't
> touch that, especially cheapo stuff at the discount warehouse.

I think I really have only two decent choices, given that cost is a factor
(although saving on electricity is also a factor).

1. Buy a whole new LED fixture (the color of the existing LEDs is fantastic)
2. Put a T8 electronic ballast into each

> The last ballast I replaced was in an 8 foot fixture that could not be
> moved without messing up the ceiling. That was the only compelling reason
> to just leave it alone, plus the owner still had supply of those bulbs.

I just want to get rid of the buzzing of the one bad fluorescent ballast,
and to rid myself of the bulb-changing hassle once and for all, but not at
too steep a price.

[Bill Moinihan]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

> For about $ 20 you can get a single electronic ballast that will run all
> 4 tubes. Then put in the newer T8 bulbs.
>
> You will have to follow the wiring diagram that is on the ballast as it
> will be different from the old one. The new ones are made to fit in the
> same bracket/screw holes as one of the older ones.

Thanks for that suggestion!

How does this one look from Home Depot?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/120-Volt-Electronic-Ballast-for-4-ft-4-Lamp-T8-Fixture-93885/205409893

One question is whether I need "instant start" or "programmed/rapid start":
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4-lamp-t8-fluorescent-ballasts/

I think I need "rapid" start because that's what is there now, I think.

Since cost is a major issue for me (I have little money but want to get rid
of the buzzing from the bad ballast and if I can get rid of fluorescent
tubes and save money on electricity, that would be a plus), here's the cost
breakdown:

$20 for the T8 electronic ballast
$28 for the four T8 LED bulbs
-----------------
%50 roughly, for the retrofit

Is that my best option?

[Bill Moinihan]

Andy Burns wrote:

> I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent
> tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the
> Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually
> involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there?

You've hit upon the major flaw of my "retrofit".

I wanted to get rid of the fluorescent, especially since one of them buzzes
loudly. But I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars just now.

People suggested LEDs for two reasons:
a. Energy cost
b. Convenience

I think the solution I came up with, which fits into a fixture with T8
ballast, is hitting me on both:

A. I don't see how it saves energy yet, since it's the same ballast
B. The T8 LEDs may burn out far more quickly since it's a T12 ballast

On the first point, I admit I'm confused.
How can it save *any* energy, if the ballast is the same?

The LED box says "Uses 47% less energy" where it clarifies that in the small
print saying "47% energy savings is based on the difference between using a
17W LED replacement lamp, compared to using a 32W fluorescent lamp with an
electronic ballast. Performance varies based on ballast type. Your savings
will depend on your rates, fluorescent lamp (sic) you are replacing and
actual hours of operation.

In my case, I have the non-electronic ballast, and it's 40Watts.
I'm confused.

Plus my energy costs are three times the 11 cents they seem to use in the
LED light numbers.

So, I'm confused.

Does any of this mean I'll get more or less than the roughly half savings of
energy costs?

How?

[danny burstein]

In <nve7bb$qm5$3...@news.mixmin.net> Bill Moinihan <m...@example.com> writes:

>I think the solution I came up with, which fits into a fixture with T8
>ballast, is hitting me on both:

>A. I don't see how it saves energy yet, since it's the same ballast
>B. The T8 LEDs may burn out far more quickly since it's a T12 ballast

>On the first point, I admit I'm confused.
>How can it save *any* energy, if the ballast is the same?

My head hurts on trying to figure out just how a legacy
ballast can worh with a retrofitted LED tube, but
they do. I've installed a few of them.

I measured the before and after using a Kil-a-watt brand meter.
Don't have the paper here, but the measurements were something
like the following.

twin "40" fluorescent fixture:

Ballast only w/no lamps: 12 watts
Ballast w/both lamps: 84

Retrofitted with a "drop in" LED:

Ballst w/LEDs: 60

Light output was higer with the LEDs.

Again, these are NOT the exact numbers,
but there definitely was a savings when
using the drop in replacements.




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_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 21:48:54 -0400, Meanie <mea...@gmail.com> wrote:

>LEDs can handle the
>on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
>manufactures lifetime claim.

Ahem... There are other LED failure modes:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LED_failure_modes>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Bill Moinihan]

Meanie wrote:

> Not sure where you obtain your info but LED lamps offer a wide range of
> lumen output and color output and they don't flicker unless they are
> cheap LEDs. The price of fluorescent tubes are increasing, even T8s
> while LEDs are still decreasing.

These Costco Feit LED tubes are VERY BRIGHT compared to the fluorescent
lights. Maybe that's because the T12 ballast is "overdriving" them? I don't
know, but it's like daylight in the garage now with 12 of them lighting up
the ceiling.

They cost $7 each, on sale, at Costco.

Googling for the price for fluorescents at Home Depot, for both T8 and T12,
a ten pack is 20 to 35 bucks, so, about 1/3 to 1/2 the price. Given the
fluorescents don't last as long (we hope anyway, that the LEDs last longer),
that's about the same if the LEDs last twice to three times longer.

So, I figure, roughly anyway, the price is (about) the same.

Energy, the box says, is about half, but let's assume that since I'm using
the T12 ballast on a T8 LED, that I only get about 1/4, but that's a bonus
anyway.

> As I stated in another reply, fluorescent lamps can last a very long
> time if they remain on all day or use a program start ballast.

This is a garage. They're on only when we use the garage which is a few
times a day for short periods of time (although the kids leave the lights on
all the time, so that's a factor).

I just learned what "program start" meant, and that's "rapid start", which
these fixtures seem to be. There is no "starter" in evidence anyway. Just
the ballast and the words "rapid start" on the assembly.

> The
> constant on/off is what kills them prematurely. LEDs can handle the
> on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
> manufactures lifetime claim.

This is good that the LEDs can better handle the on/off as these lights are
in a garage so they won't be left on (except by mistake).

My main objective now, is to replace the bad T12 ballast with a T8 from Home
Depot, which will allow me to put the LED T8 lamps in that one fixture.

It will be an experiment, since the other three fixtures are T12 ballasts,
so, and one of them has four new fluorescent bulbs, so, I'm running this
experiment unwittingly for the four sets of fixtures (with 4 bulbs each):

1. 4 Fluorescent T12 bulbs on a T12 ballast
2. 4 LED T8 bulbs on a T12 ballast
3. 4 LED T8 bulbs on a T12 ballast
4. 4 LED T8 bulbs on a T8 ballast <=== I need to buy this ballast

[Bill Moinihan]

Meanie wrote:

> Correct. T12 are obsolete.

Thanks for confirming. The funny thing is that the only difference is the
diameter (and the wattage), so, it's odd that they're "obsolete" just
because they're a bit fatter.

What's so bad about a 40W tube versus a 32W tube?
Is the 8 watts really a big deal?

Or is there some other reason to ban "fat" tubes?

>> Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner.
>> Is that the standard setup?
>>
> Yes. The other set up would be a single four lamp ballast.

Since I think I have two bad ballasts, the single four-lamp ballast for 20
bucks is what I'm gonna get tomorrow at Home Depot (if they have it).

> Correct. A T8 is supposed to be 1 inch in diameter.

I measured the T8 LED with a ruler and it was close to one inch, but the T12
was off by a lot. It was 1-3/8ths of an inch, or a T11 in diameter.

> Ballasts are now becoming universal. In that, I mean, they can
> accommodate voltage of 120 to 277 and they no longer have two wires of
> each color. Instead, they offer one red and two blues. Each of those
> wires connects with the two wires from each lamp. Thus, the single red
> will connect to the two yellows, one blue will connect to two blues and
> the other blue will connect to the two reds.

Hmmm... that sounds like exactly the same setup, only different colors. I
guess the colors actually "mean" something then... 'cuz color is the only
difference on the outside.

> Unfortunately, inexpensive replacements usually mean cheap ballasts
> which will not last long. Also keep in mind if you continue to use
> fluorescent fixtures, when a lamp is burned out, it is best to replace
> asap to ensure long life of the ballast. When a lamp isn't working, the
> ballast continuously attempts igniting the non-working lamp and that
> decreases the life of the ballast.

Thank you for that hint, as I did not know that.
They never taught me anything about this stuff in school.

Given out of 16 bulbs I took out, only about half were still working, so I'm
surprised only one ballast was outright dead (with another suspect).

[Bill Moinihan]

Meanie wrote:

> When LEDs were first available as replacements for tubed fluorescent,
> they had to be direct wired (removal of ballasts). Now they've made LEDs
> to use the existing ballasts as it's driver. Though, that could still
> differ based on geographic location.

I don't know anything about LED tubes but if it was "direct wire" that might
be better because who needs the ballast anyway?

I don't even understand what the ballast even does, in the case of the LED
tubes.

Do you?

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <nve7ba$qm5$2...@news.mixmin.net>, m...@example.com says...

>
>
> Thanks for that suggestion!
>
> How does this one look from Home Depot?
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/120-Volt-Electronic-Ballast-for-4-ft-4-Lamp-T8-Fixture-93885/205409893
>
> One question is whether I need "instant start" or "programmed/rapid start":
> https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4-lamp-t8-fluorescent-ballasts/
>
> I think I need "rapid" start because that's what is there now, I think.
>
> Since cost is a major issue for me (I have little money but want to get rid
> of the buzzing from the bad ballast and if I can get rid of fluorescent
> tubes and save money on electricity, that would be a plus), here's the cost
> breakdown:
>
> $20 for the T8 electronic ballast
> $28 for the four T8 LED bulbs
> -----------------
> %50 roughly, for the retrofit
>
> Is that my best option?

You need to get the bulbs to match the ballast which in this case is
'instant start'. I have not bought any floursecent bulbs ina while, but
the last time I bought them seems that I could get a box of 12 for only
a little more than 4 bulbs.

If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
not comment on that.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <nve8lv$st4$2...@news.mixmin.net>, m...@example.com says...

>
> Meanie wrote:
>
> > Correct. T12 are obsolete.
>
> Thanks for confirming. The funny thing is that the only difference is the
> diameter (and the wattage), so, it's odd that they're "obsolete" just
> because they're a bit fatter.
>
> What's so bad about a 40W tube versus a 32W tube?
> Is the 8 watts really a big deal?
>
> Or is there some other reason to ban "fat" tubes?
>
>

It could be the 8 watts or more likely the makeup of the tube. Less
glass and material. The tubes do contain mercury so less of that to
deal with. They kept cutting down on the mercury in the t12 tubes and
someetimes they would not start up if it was much below 50 deg F. Not
sure of the makeup of the coating on the inside ot the tubes, but less
used there also.

I worked in a large company that had thousands of bulbs. Toward the
last of the t12 tubes we had many that would not start up and this was
in a room that was over 70 deg F.

[Bill Moinihan]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

> It could be the 8 watts or more likely the makeup of the tube. Less
> glass and material. The tubes do contain mercury so less of that to
> deal with.

It's not obvious why they banned 40 Watts but kept 32 Watts (which seems
miniscule of a difference).

Googling, I found this:
Why did US Department of Energy discontinued the T12 lights?
http://www.t5fixtures.com/why-did-us-department-of-energy-discontinued-the-t12-lights/

Here is a direct quote of the main reason:
"T12 light bulbs were becoming extremely inefficient"

Here is a second direct quote of the secondary reason:
"Polychlorinaed Biphenyls are used in T12 fixture ballast manufacturing"

Huh? Why would a T12 ballast use PCBs while a T8 ballast wouldn't?
Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

Googling some more, I find this:
The Case Against T12 Bulbs that Invited the Ban

https://www.shineretrofits.com/knowledge-base/lighting-learning-center/are-t12-lamps-really-banned.html

Which says (verbatim):
"the conventional four-foot T12 lamp still consumes a whopping 40 watts
every hour. On the other hand, the more modern T8 lamp consumes anything
between 25 and 32 watts of energy in an hour."

So I guess the 8 watts mattered to the DOE.

SImilarly, it says "The T12 lamps are not long-lasting", but, since when
does the DOE care about how long bulbs last (especially since incandescents
don't last all that long either).

Now we get to the hazardous waste where it says "T12 lamps release toxic
mercury and PCB waste products".

Huh? Why would T12s release more of these than T8s?

[Bill Moinihan]

danny burstein wrote:

> My head hurts on trying to figure out just how a legacy
> ballast can worh with a retrofitted LED tube, but
> they do. I've installed a few of them.

I only yesterday figured out how (by looking it up) a legacy ballast works
with LED tubes, but I couldn't find an article that explains how it works
with LEDs.

> I measured the before and after using a Kil-a-watt brand meter.
> Don't have the paper here, but the measurements were something
> like the following.
>
> twin "40" fluorescent fixture:
>
> Ballast only w/no lamps: 12 watts
> Ballast w/both lamps: 84
>
> Retrofitted with a "drop in" LED:
>
> Ballst w/LEDs: 60
>
> Light output was higer with the LEDs.
>
> Again, these are NOT the exact numbers,
> but there definitely was a savings when
> using the drop in replacements.

Thanks for providing that reference information.
I have to admit, the two 4-bulb lamps currently with the LEDs in them are
brighter than the sun it seems, at least in a garage they are.

Compared to the fluorescents, they rock with light output!

I just hope they last, given they are T8s on a T12 ballast.

[Bill Moinihan]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

> You need to get the bulbs to match the ballast which in this case is
> 'instant start'. I have not bought any floursecent bulbs ina while, but
> the last time I bought them seems that I could get a box of 12 for only
> a little more than 4 bulbs.
>
> If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
> have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
> not comment on that.

It would be nice if I can just cut out the ballast altogether.
Maybe the LED bulbs work with or without the ballast?
I'll call Feit tomorrow to ask if that's possible.

[Bill Moinihan]

Bill Moinihan wrote:

> Now we get to the hazardous waste where it says "T12 lamps release toxic
> mercury and PCB waste products".
>
> Huh? Why would T12s release more of these than T8s?

Reading more, I think they are just making most of this stuff up.

This article lists all the stuff that was retired:
http://www.ledsource.com/blog/light-bulb-ban-continues-t8-700-series-fluorescent-tube/


100 watt and 150 watt incandescent A-lamp – banned January 1, 2012
75 watt incandescent A-lamp – banned January 1, 2013
60 watt incandescent A-lamp – banned January 1, 2014
40 watt incandescent A-lamp – banned January 1, 2014

T8 single-pin fluorescent 8 foot slim and high-output – banned January
2009
Most reflector lamps over 50 watts (except some 65W) – July 1, 2010
Magnetic ballasts for many standard fluorescent lamps – July 1, 2010
T12 fluorescent tubes 4 foot – banned July 14, 2012
T12 fluorescent tubes 2 foot U-Bend – banned July 14, 2012
T12 fluorescent tubes 8 foot (slim and high output)– banned July 14,
2012
T8 with low CRI – banned July 14, 2012 (DOE changed CRI to 87 in April
2011)
PAR20, PAR30, PAR38 Halogen standard lamps (within 40W to 205W) –
banned July 14, 2012

So it just seems to be an "efficiency" thing since they all have different
secondary reasons.

[Bill Moinihan]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Ahem... There are other LED failure modes:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LED_failure_modes>

That article lists:
- The package components yellow
- Thermal expansion & contraction cause components to crack
- Phosphor degeneration
- Nucleation
- EM
- ionizing radiation
- Metal melting on the chip
- Whiskers shorting out traces
- thermal runaway
- current crowding
- electrostatic discharge
- reverse bias

[Bill Moinihan]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

> If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
> have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
> not comment on that.

This bulb seems to simply require me to "bypass the ballast":
http://www.ledsource.com/products/effinion-lt-series-led-tubes/

[HerHusband]

Bill,

> These Costco Feit LED tubes are VERY BRIGHT compared to the
> fluorescent lights. Maybe that's because the T12 ballast is
> "overdriving" them? I don't know, but it's like daylight in the garage
> now with 12 of them lighting up the ceiling.

Your package photo shows a lumen output of just 1700 lumens, compared to
around 2800 lumens for a fluorescent bulb. So technically it's putting out
LESS light.

Your old bulbs were probably dimming with age and giving off a bit more of
a "warm" glow. Your new LED's have a whiter light, which can make them
seem brighter when they really aren't.

In any case, as long as you're happy with the light output it doesn't
really matter.

Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

[pf...@aol.com]

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:29:15 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:

> Your package photo shows a lumen output of just 1700 lumens, compared to
> around 2800 lumens for a fluorescent bulb. So technically it's putting out
> LESS light.

OK - A few things on the nature of LEDs and the nature of Fluorescent lamps, and the nature of ballasts, magnetic or electronic:

a) LED lamp/tube/whatever emitters are flat devices mounted on some surface that distributes the light in a 'designed' manner. A fluorescent tube emits light in all directions, much of which is absorbed by the surrounding sheet metal (remember back in the day, reflective shields were added above the tubes to capture some of this light and in a 4-tube fixture, usually two were removed to 'save energy') LED tubes do not have this failing and direct most of their light were it is actually useful. So, lower lumens, more light.

b) Fluorescent lamps can lose more than 60% of their output and still function. Most, however, crap out at about 70% of original output. But one run continuously may go as low as 40% before actual failure - which is when the filament at either end or both ends fails.

c) 'Magnetic' ballasts are just like any other transformer-based device. They do not "PUSH" current, what is connected to then "PULLS" the current. So more efficient lamps will *pull* less current.

d) Electronic ballasts are switching devices, and also do not PUSH. Nor do 'bad lamps' affect them as badly as they do magnetic ballasts. Typically, they do not overheat or die from that process. They die, mostly, from the failure of some internal component such as a capacitor.

e) Putting a T8 lamp on a T12 ballast will vastly shorten the life of the lamp, UNLESS the ballasts is marked specifically as T8/T12 compliant. A T12 ballast runs at a higher voltage than a T8 ballast. Again, switching ballasts are often designed to 'sense' what is connected to them.

So, guys and gals, the choice as to whether to convert or purchase new is one that should purely be made on the basis of saving landfill and/or mine-to-landfill cost analysis - after which comes energy efficiency. Making a new fixture takes energy from some source, the processing of materials either 'new' or 'recycled' or some combination of both, and the shipping of that material to a user. Whereupon it is used-up or consumed and the detritus is either landfilled or recycled. There are costs associated with every step, in cash and in environmental impacts. The energy associated with a new fixture, disposing of the old and environmental considerations will offset a great deal of energy used by an old fixture, if it is otherwise operating efficiently. But, if it is not, then one owes the future the decision to go with the fixture that has the lowest overall impact on the environment - from when the raw materials are mined or refined to how much of it could be recycled in the future, to the actual cost of disposal, to the energy used during its life.

And why it is, thereby, that first-cost should almost NEVER be a deciding factor when making any purchase of any nature of any item/appliance that consumes energy as its primary function.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Klay Anderson]

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 5:07:03 PM UTC-6, Bill Moinihan wrote:
> > What is an inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
> > https://s13.postimg.org/7jivra81j/garage_lights.jpg
> >
> > There are four of these sets of lights, each of which holds 4 flourescent
> > bulbs, which keep flickering, burning out, and making humming sounds.
>

> What do you think, honestly, of this idea?
>

Buying the wrong thing at any price is still....buying the wrong thing. We have been importing LED T8 since 2010. The BEST method is to ignore the "works with ballast" claims (most do NOT) and get tubes that work directly. Remove the ballast, take LINE to one end of the tube, NEUTRAL to the other (there is usually enough wire internally to do this using cutters and a wire nut or two) and be done with it. These tubes are generally the same price. Also use a CORRECT color temperature. For most applications, we use 4000K. Warm offices, 3000K. You don't need no stinking ballast, folks.

Klay

[Jon Elson]

> Cydrome Leader wrote:

>> LED retrofits are usually real stupid in practice as there's no point of
>> installing "efficient" lighting in an old shitty fixture. Running LEDs
>> off an old magnetic ballast is just way convoluted. Ballasts die all the
>> time anyways and if they go, they're likely to take anything connected to
>> them with it.

Yes, definitely. I was horrified to discover how inefficient old T12
ballasts were. When I did my LED retrofit, I made before/after
measurements. I was using 32W-rated T12 lamps, and the old 2-lamp ballast
drew 103W!!! Yikes, I would have done this sooner if I had known!

Using a commercial 350 mA LED lighting power supply on a string of 20 "1 W"
LEDs to replace the two-lamp set, it drew 21 W. The light output is
probably less than two new T12 lamps, but plenty of light for a kitchen,
with 3 of these 2-lamp fixtures.

> This is a good point in that the original T12 ballasts are due to die
> sooner than the LED bulbs will die, especially since the original ballasts
> are so old that they're made in the USA (which means they're really old).
>
> And when the original ballasts die, the T8 LED bulbs will be useless.
>
>> The best move is get a new fixture. It will have a new electronic ballast
>> and will take better skinnier flourescent bulbs. It will be the best of
>> all worlds- cheap bulbs, no flicker and good colored qualities. LEDs
>> can't touch that, especially cheapo stuff at the discount warehouse.

Well, I'm totally happy with my 20-LED strings. Color temperature is much
better than I expected, nobody has complained at all. Light output is fine,
and you can't beat 21 W line draw for the equivalent of 2 T12 lamps.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Bill Moinihan wrote:


> Here is a second direct quote of the secondary reason:
> "Polychlorinaed Biphenyls are used in T12 fixture ballast manufacturing"
>
> Huh? Why would a T12 ballast use PCBs while a T8 ballast wouldn't?
> Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?
>

Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but
more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW
ballasts have had any PCB content for decades.

Jon

[Bill Moinihan]

HerHusband wrote:

> Your package photo shows a lumen output of just 1700 lumens, compared to
> around 2800 lumens for a fluorescent bulb. So technically it's putting out
> LESS light.

Thanks for noticing that detail.
The old bulbs must have been dimmed, as you noted, over time.
The new light is bright, by comparison.

[Bill Moinihan]

Jon Elson wrote:

> I was horrified to discover how inefficient old T12
> ballasts were.

Yikes! I guess I should replace the T12 ballasts with T8 electronic
ballasts.

If there's a sale on em... I will. :)

[Bill Moinihan]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 14:48:37 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

> Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but
> more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW
> ballasts have had any PCB content for decades.

Thanks for that update.

After reading a few of these articles, and after noting that the government
bans *plenty* of other bulbs (which don't have ballasts), the *real* reason
is just the energy efficiency, I'm sure.

I guess the write of that article I referenced needed more words, so they
went on about PCBs, but, that's not the real reason.

They even banned some T8 bulbs, for example. And Halogens. And incandescent.

So, it's all about energy.

[dpb]

On 11/03/2016 3:16 PM, Bill Moinihan wrote:
...

> So, it's all about energy.

No, it's "all for the children"...

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Meanie <mea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/2/2016 2:26 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:

>> In sci.electronics.repair Bill Moinihan <m...@example.com> wrote:
>>>> What is an inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
>>>> https://s13.postimg.org/7jivra81j/garage_lights.jpg
>>>>
>>>> There are four of these sets of lights, each of which holds 4 flourescent
>>>> bulbs, which keep flickering, burning out, and making humming sounds.
>>>
>>> What do you think, honestly, of this idea?
>>

>> It's bad, but not by intent.
>>

>>> Costco has supposedly "universal" LED replacement tubes:
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/qei7hifs7/1_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg
>>>
>>> The price is currently $7.70 per tube:
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/8pqgpw413/2_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg
>>>
>>> So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>>>
>>> At home I compared them by size to the original tubes:
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/khec0oynb/4_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

>>>
>>> Where I can't find any T2 or T4 or T8 or T12 designation at all:
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/4x6ya5oiv/5_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>>
>> Looks like a standard T12 bulb. It's real easy to test though. Each "T" in
>> a bulb designator is 1/8th of an inch. T8s are 1 inch in diameter for
>> example. T5 is 5/8th inch etc.
>>

>>> All four of the 4-tube boxes hum and flicker and have bad bulbs:
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/ne1d0z4h3/6_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>>>
>>> Opening them up, I find only about half still working:
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/9lrjj333b/7_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>>>
>>> I can't find the ballast nor the T2,T4,T8 designation inside.
>>> All it says on the metal is "USE RAPID START LAMPS":
>>> https://s21.postimg.org/jlhul8oyv/8_led_tubes_at_home.jpg
>>>
>>> Where's the ballast?
>>> Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
>>> What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)

>>
>> LED retrofits are usually real stupid in practice as there's no point of
>> installing "efficient" lighting in an old shitty fixture. Running LEDs off

>> an old magnetic ballast is is just way convoluted. Ballasts die all the

>> time anyways and if they go, they're likely to take anything connected to
>> them with it.
>>

>> The best move is get a new fixture. It will have a new electronic ballast
>> and will take better skinnier flourescent bulbs. It will be the best of
>> all worlds- cheap bulbs, no flicker and good colored qualities. LEDs can't
>> touch that, especially cheapo stuff at the discount warehouse.
>>
>

> Not sure where you obtain your info but LED lamps offer a wide range of
> lumen output and color output and they don't flicker unless they are
> cheap LEDs. The price of fluorescent tubes are increasing, even T8s
> while LEDs are still decreasing.

For starters, I have eyes. I can see color, flicker and easily note bad
quality lighting, which most LED units are.

> As I stated in another reply, fluorescent lamps can last a very long

> time if they remain on all day or use a program start ballast. The

> constant on/off is what kills them prematurely. LEDs can handle the
> on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
> manufactures lifetime claim.

Yeah, right, the brightness only drops after 50,000 hours.

get real.

[Bill Moinihan]

Cydrome Leader wrote:

> I have eyes. I can see color, flicker and easily note bad
> quality lighting, which most LED units are.

I probably am not as discerning as you are, and, we should remember, this is
a "garage" so, it's not a "reading light" or a "mood light" by any stretch
of the imagination.

So, for a garage, I can only safely say that the light output from four of
these LED T8 bulbs driven by magnetic T12 ballasts is far brighter and less
flickery than four T12 fluorescent bulbs which are a few years old.

Sure, I'm comparing old to new, but that's what I have to compare.

I don't notice ANY flicker, although I hear a faint hum, which is probably
from the T12 ballast being squeezed at 120 cycles per second.

It's certainly *white* light, far whiter than the (ols) fluorescents were.
The price was about 3 times what a replacement fluorescent would cost.

Over time, I'd be forced to replace the T12s anyway, so,

>> As I stated in another reply, fluorescent lamps can last a very long
>> time if they remain on all day or use a program start ballast. The
>> constant on/off is what kills them prematurely. LEDs can handle the
>> on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
>> manufactures lifetime claim.
>
> Yeah, right, the brightness only drops after 50,000 hours.

You are correct in that the brightness of LEDs diminishes from day 1, mostly
due to fundamental cracks growing between crystals, so the "lifetime" is
supposed to be to the L70, which is the point at which the LED is at 70% of
its original brightness.

[Meanie]

Stop purchasing your lamps from China and maybe your eyes will see
something better.

[Bill Moinihan]

Meanie wrote:

> Stop purchasing your lamps from China and maybe your eyes will see
> something better.

You (and I) both need a *better* way to tell the quality of the lamp.

Take the T12 ballasts I have, for example, which are made in New Jersey.
That doesn't mean they're high quality, just because they're made in the
USA, does it?

There must be a *better* indicator of quality for LED lamps than just where
it's made.

For example, is there *any* indication of the quality of the Costco Feit
lamps that I bought?

Here's the spec sheet, I think:
http://www.feit.com/documents/pdf/T4819_LEDIF_41K_SpecSheet.pdf

NOTE: Tomorrow I'll ask Feit for the LM-79 and LM-80 data.

What do you think about the quality of these Feit lamps, made in China?

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Bill Moinihan <m...@example.com> wrote:

> Meanie wrote:
>
>> Stop purchasing your lamps from China and maybe your eyes will see
>> something better.
>
> You (and I) both need a *better* way to tell the quality of the lamp.
>
> Take the T12 ballasts I have, for example, which are made in New Jersey.
> That doesn't mean they're high quality, just because they're made in the
> USA, does it?

We can deduce they were made good enough to last a couple decades.

> There must be a *better* indicator of quality for LED lamps than just where
> it's made.
>
> For example, is there *any* indication of the quality of the Costco Feit
> lamps that I bought?

yes, what you paid for them, and the fact there's no real spec sheet on
them.

> Here's the spec sheet, I think:
> http://www.feit.com/documents/pdf/T4819_LEDIF_41K_SpecSheet.pdf

As far a lighting goes, that's a 100% meaningless spec sheet. It doesn't
even mention the CRI, which is guaranteed to be unspecified anywhere and
not controlled.

> NOTE: Tomorrow I'll ask Feit for the LM-79 and LM-80 data.
>
> What do you think about the quality of these Feit lamps, made in China?

cheapest imported lighting would be the best description.

[Bill Moinihan]

Cydrome Leader wrote:

> We can deduce they were made good enough to last a couple decades.

Good point, in that they were made well enough to last for probably 30
years.

> yes, what you paid for them, and the fact there's no real spec sheet on
> them.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
What you paid is NEVER an indication of quality.

I can give you hundreds of examples which nullify instantly that idiotic
argument. I've been having this argument for years, with many people, so,
please understand that it's not you that I'm upset with.

I'm upset with people who can't THINK about DETAILS, so they pick a SIMPLE
number as their indicator of quality.

Sure, price is a SIMPLE way to think about things.
So is warranty.

But neither is ANY indication whatsoever of quality.

Sure, some quality stuff costs more, but a LOT of things are overpriced
(e.g., lettuce at safeway, housing in California, HP ink cartridges, etc.).

None of those are high quality.

>> Here's the spec sheet, I think:
>> http://www.feit.com/documents/pdf/T4819_LEDIF_41K_SpecSheet.pdf
>
> As far a lighting goes, that's a 100% meaningless spec sheet. It doesn't
> even mention the CRI, which is guaranteed to be unspecified anywhere and
> not controlled.

I agree with you that this so-called "spec" sheet was just marketing fluff.
But I had nothing better on the net.
That's why I asked.

> cheapest imported lighting would be the best description.

On the one hand, you realized the "spec" sheet was BS, but on the other
hand, you make quality decisions based on a single nearly meaningless
number, simply because it's easy to do.

SO I'm confused by your advice.

[gregor...@gmail.com]

Phillips Advance : Ballasts
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/products/oem-components/fluorescent-ballasts.html

Their USA Corporate HQ are near O'Hare Airport (Chicago).
Almost all of the Ace Hardware stores (especially the Industrial ones) in Chicago area (Ace HQ also)
carry the Phillips ballasts or can order.

g. beat
chicago

[w9gb]

How to Buy: T8 and T12 LED Fluorescent Replacement Tubes
Posted by EarthLED News on Jun 03, 2015

Choosing the right LED fluorescent replacement tubes can be confusing due to the myriad of product types and installation options.
We at EarthLED.com have created this guide to assist in the process and help you make the right choice for your specific projects.
https://www.earthled.com/blogs/light-2-0-the-earthled-blog-led-lighting-news-tips-reviews/33135492-how-to-buy-t8-and-t12-led-fluorescent-replacement-tubes

Currently, there are four types of options available in the market:

1.) Ballast Bypass or Direct Wire LED Fluorescent Replacement Tubes

2.) T8 Electronic Ballast Compatible LED Fluorescent Replacement Tubes

3.) Hybrid (T8 Electronic Ballast Compatible / T8 or T12 Ballast Bypass LED) Fluorescent Replacement Tubes

4.) Universal (T8 Electronic or T12 Magnetic) Ballast Compatible LED Fluorescent Replacement Tubes

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Bill Moinihan <m...@example.com> wrote:

> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>
>> We can deduce they were made good enough to last a couple decades.
>
> Good point, in that they were made well enough to last for probably 30
> years.
>
>> yes, what you paid for them, and the fact there's no real spec sheet on
>> them.
>
> No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
> What you paid is NEVER an indication of quality.

Yeah, break that light open and find it packed with the finest components,
and the best of design coupled with the best of constuction and quality
control.

> I can give you hundreds of examples which nullify instantly that idiotic
> argument. I've been having this argument for years, with many people, so,
> please understand that it's not you that I'm upset with.

Like I said above. I can't wait to see the teardown of the first unit to
fail. This should only take a month.

> I'm upset with people who can't THINK about DETAILS, so they pick a SIMPLE
> number as their indicator of quality.
>
> Sure, price is a SIMPLE way to think about things.
> So is warranty.
>
> But neither is ANY indication whatsoever of quality.

Yup, no indication at all.

> Sure, some quality stuff costs more, but a LOT of things are overpriced
> (e.g., lettuce at safeway, housing in California, HP ink cartridges, etc.).
>
> None of those are high quality.
>
>>> Here's the spec sheet, I think:
>>> http://www.feit.com/documents/pdf/T4819_LEDIF_41K_SpecSheet.pdf
>>
>> As far a lighting goes, that's a 100% meaningless spec sheet. It doesn't
>> even mention the CRI, which is guaranteed to be unspecified anywhere and
>> not controlled.
>
> I agree with you that this so-called "spec" sheet was just marketing fluff.
> But I had nothing better on the net.
> That's why I asked.
>
>> cheapest imported lighting would be the best description.
>
> On the one hand, you realized the "spec" sheet was BS, but on the other
> hand, you make quality decisions based on a single nearly meaningless
> number, simply because it's easy to do.
>
> SO I'm confused by your advice.

My advice is simple.

If somebody has LED lighting efficiency boner, and wants to save money buy
a new light fixture. Don't retrofit stuff made during the Reagan
administration with the most bogus of retrofit kits ever imagined.

The fact that fiet eletric admits that the lights have no regulation and
just burn out faster in exactly the place people might install them speaks
for itself about the integrity of the product.

[Cydrome Leader]

They used to be made on Western ave by Belmont until 20 or so years ago
too. It's sort of amazing the plant never became a superfund site.