RAC Portable Power Station, need DC adaptor spec
Adrian C
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/turnstyler/IMG_3573.jpg
A neighbour has dropped in with his discharged and dead "RAC Portable
Power Station and Engine Starter" which he obtained without the
necessary DC charger. The starter is a dayglo orange heavy thing with a
handle and says it can crank 400 Amps.
Anyway, written on the front of the DC input socket, it claims it needs
16V - so I've got it charging up of one of my laboratory supplies set at
that.
Initially connecting it up, it was was drawing about 100mA. After 5
hours it's now drawing 400mA. Must have some 'inteligence' in it.
So I'd guess a 16V 500mA adaptor (or thereabouts) would be a suitable
replacement. But to check if anyone has one of these, could ye check
what's written on the mains adaptor? And can find for reference the user
instructions?
Thanks.
--
Adrian C
Dave Plowman (News)
Adrian C <em...@here.invalid> wrote:
> Anyway, written on the front of the DC input socket, it claims it needs
> 16V - so I've got it charging up of one of my laboratory supplies set at
> that.
> Initially connecting it up, it was was drawing about 100mA. After 5
> hours it's now drawing 400mA. Must have some 'inteligence' in it.
If the internal lead acid battery was very flat, this is what happens. The
internal resistance goes high. As it charges, it comes down to where it
should be. FWIW the SLAs used on these won't supply starting current very
often. Perhaps a half dozen times or so before they no longer manage the
full amount. But can limp on as just a portable 12v DC supply for quite
some time.
> So I'd guess a 16V 500mA adaptor (or thereabouts) would be a suitable
> replacement. But to check if anyone has one of these, could ye check
> what's written on the mains adaptor? And can find for reference the user
> instructions?
My Lidl one has a 1000 mA wall wart. I can look at its spec if you want.
--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Harry Bloomfield
> Initially connecting it up, it was was drawing about 100mA. After 5 hours
> it's now drawing 400mA. Must have some 'inteligence' in it.
That is the usual behaviour of a completely flat lead acid battery,
rather than any built in intelligence. My (not RAC) unit has an
automatic charger built in, which cuts it off once the fully charged
voltage is reached, but yours might not do that (look for an LED marked
charged)- so it might need to be carefully matched in voltage output.
It lights up as soon as powered, then goes out once fully charged and
stays out until powed down and up again.
It's charger suggests it is 18v 0.75amp DC. If yours lacks the charge
control built in, you need a voltage controlled PSU of around 13.8 to
14.2v.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
Dave Plowman (News)
Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > So I'd guess a 16V 500mA adaptor (or thereabouts) would be a suitable
> > replacement. But to check if anyone has one of these, could ye check
> > what's written on the mains adaptor? And can find for reference the
> > user instructions?
> My Lidl one has a 1000 mA wall wart. I can look at its spec if you want.
It's actually marked 12 volt DC 1000mA. So must be a very nominal 12
volts. ;-)
--
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *
Adrian C
> In article<517f455...@davenoise.co.uk>,
> Dave Plowman (News)<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> So I'd guess a 16V 500mA adaptor (or thereabouts) would be a suitable
>>> replacement. But to check if anyone has one of these, could ye check
>>> what's written on the mains adaptor? And can find for reference the
>>> user instructions?
>
>> My Lidl one has a 1000 mA wall wart. I can look at its spec if you want.
>
> It's actually marked 12 volt DC 1000mA. So must be a very nominal 12
> volts. ;-)
>
Thanks for checking.
Something unregulated rated at anything past 12V rated at an amp or more
might just fit the task, and be easier to find in the junk pile than
something unregulated and small with specifically 16V stamped on it.
He'll go for that :-)
--
Adrian C
Harry Bloomfield
> Thanks for checking.
>
> Something unregulated rated at anything past 12V rated at an amp or more
> might just fit the task, and be easier to find in the junk pile than
> something unregulated and small with specifically 16V stamped on it.
12v or even 13.5v will not put a charge into a 12v lead acid battery,
it needs to be in the range 13.8 to 14.2v
Terry Fields
Adrian C wrote:
These days battery chargers are very sophisticated things in how they
treat batteries. If your friend has more than one battery to care for,
an Optimate or Accumate charger might be a good idea, but they aren't
cheap.
TF
Adrian C
> Adrian C has brought this to us :
>> Thanks for checking.
>>
>> Something unregulated rated at anything past 12V rated at an amp or
>> more might just fit the task, and be easier to find in the junk pile
>> than something unregulated and small with specifically 16V stamped on it.
>
> 12v or even 13.5v will not put a charge into a 12v lead acid battery, it
> needs to be in the range 13.8 to 14.2v
>
A biggish transformer marked 12v lightly loaded will be supplying that
and more easily. Got no worries about that (and as I said easier for me
to find).
Cheers
--
Adrian
Wild_Bill
inside until you open the case.
The Schumacher Instant Power 400 Peak Amps model IP-55 has a 12V 5Ah battery
and an internal charging circuit (AC transformer, circuit board, LEDs
red-yel-grn).
On the back of the unit, there is a flip-up set of (2) blades that fit a
standard NEMA 120VAC extension cord female connector. Any AC cord is just
connected to the 2 blades for charging.
The manual states that an optional 12V cord is available for charging from a
car lighter-socket "while driving" (inserted into the front DC power outlet
socket), which won't actually work well unless connected "while driving"
while the vehicle alternator is operating and the output voltage is about
13.8-14.2V.
Cable p/n 38-99-001564, which doesn't seem to exist.. not found on their
site or by Goog search.
A warning cautions that the unit's internal charge limiting circuit is not
applied when the adapter cord is in use, and the charge-level LEDs aren't
functional/reliable, so.. the user needs to disconnect the adapter cord and
check the level of charge frequently when using the charging cord, also
never used in excess of 4 hours, never unattended - risk of explosion or
fire, and disconnected when the engine is not running.
The unit's internal battery is connected directly to the big, external
battery terminal clamps, so one needs to avoid contacting the clamps to
anything conductive, or each other.
The front DC power outlet is connected directly to the internal battery,
with a 15A self-resetting circuit breaker in series.
Charging thru the front power outlet socket on these types of power-packs
should only be performed by use of an actual smart/automatic battery
charger.. one that will charge at a low rate (~1A maximum for a 5Ah battery
or C/0.2 rate) and capable of automatically stopping the charge cycle when a
fully charged state is attained.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"Adrian C" <em...@here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8lp941...@mid.individual.net...
Dave Plowman (News)
Terry Fields <no.spa...@thanks.invalid> wrote:
> These days battery chargers are very sophisticated things in how they
> treat batteries. If your friend has more than one battery to care for,
> an Optimate or Accumate charger might be a good idea, but they aren't
> cheap.
No need to pay silly prices for a sophisticated battery charger. Lidl and
Aldi in the UK both do similar ones for about 14 gbp. They pulse charge a
flat battery, change to a normal charge, then switch to a maintenance one.
Get the same thing with a 'name' on it and you'll pay four times as much.
--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.
The Natural Philosopher
> In article <nlqff6le70eicehuh...@4ax.com>,
> Terry Fields <no.spa...@thanks.invalid> wrote:
>> These days battery chargers are very sophisticated things in how they
>> treat batteries. If your friend has more than one battery to care for,
>> an Optimate or Accumate charger might be a good idea, but they aren't
>> cheap.
>
> No need to pay silly prices for a sophisticated battery charger. Lidl and
> Aldi in the UK both do similar ones for about 14 gbp. They pulse charge a
> flat battery, change to a normal charge, then switch to a maintenance one.
> Get the same thing with a 'name' on it and you'll pay four times as much.
>
Or get a decent RC charger for silly money
variable rate 4-8 cells and hardly bank breaking.
John MacLeod
My Silverline 38Ah Jump starter -- and yes, unlike an awful lot of
these things, it actually works and will start a 2.5 litre diesel with
a flat battery -- has a charger that's marked 15v 500mA.
Terry Fields
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>In article <nlqff6le70eicehuh...@4ax.com>,
> Terry Fields <no.spa...@thanks.invalid> wrote:
>
>> These days battery chargers are very sophisticated things in how they
>> treat batteries. If your friend has more than one battery to care for,
>> an Optimate or Accumate charger might be a good idea, but they aren't
>> cheap.
>
>No need to pay silly prices for a sophisticated battery charger. Lidl and
>Aldi in the UK both do similar ones for about 14 gbp. They pulse charge a
>flat battery, change to a normal charge, then switch to a maintenance one.
>Get the same thing with a 'name' on it and you'll pay four times as much.
As the battery in the appliance seemed to be a SLA, getting maximum
life out of it demands using an appropriate charger rather than a
random wall-wart. I use an Accumate to keep both a SLA and a
motorcycle battery in good order - I don't have any experience of the
Lidl or Aldi chargers.
TF
Dave Plowman (News)
Terry Fields <no.spa...@thanks.invalid> wrote:
> >No need to pay silly prices for a sophisticated battery charger. Lidl
> >and Aldi in the UK both do similar ones for about 14 gbp. They pulse
> >charge a flat battery, change to a normal charge, then switch to a
> >maintenance one. Get the same thing with a 'name' on it and you'll pay
> >four times as much.
> As the battery in the appliance seemed to be a SLA, getting maximum life
> out of it demands using an appropriate charger rather than a random
> wall-wart.
Of course. True SLA (gel) should be charged at constant voltage. They're
not so tolerant as car batteries in this respect.
> I use an Accumate to keep both a SLA and a motorcycle battery
> in good order - I don't have any experience of the Lidl or Aldi chargers.
These things tend to have different brand names depending on who sells
them - but most are simply a wall wart with a few pennies of extra
components. Usually not worth the premium price.
--
*I have a degree in liberal arts -- do you want fries with that
robgraham
wrote:
> In article <nlqff6le70eicehuhjv66q20eo6vjng...@4ax.com>,
> Â Â Terry Fields <no.spam.h...@thanks.invalid> wrote:
>
> > These days battery chargers are very sophisticated things in how they
> > treat batteries. If your friend has more than one battery to care for,
> > an Optimate or Accumate charger might be a good idea, but they aren't
> > cheap.
>
> No need to pay silly prices for a sophisticated battery charger. Lidl and
> Aldi in the UK both do similar ones for about 14 gbp. They pulse charge a
> flat battery, change to a normal charge, then switch to a maintenance one.
> Get the same thing with a 'name' on it and you'll pay four times as much.
>
> --
> *They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken. Â
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Lidl /Aldi offerings are good there is no doubt, but they are
never there when you want them !! You have to be on their mailing
list and make a judgement to buy when they are available - and then
they sit around for ages ..... until that magic moment and hey presto
they do the job. Just been there this afternoon to top up a spare car
battery just in case, using one of these I bought probably a year
ago. Serious cold now in Edinburgh and I can see some sluggish
starting coming up.
Dave Plowman (News)
<9156b7f2-2970-4352...@a28g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
robgraham <robkg...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > No need to pay silly prices for a sophisticated battery charger. Lidl
> > and Aldi in the UK both do similar ones for about 14 gbp. They pulse
> > charge a flat battery, change to a normal charge, then switch to a
> > maintenance one. Get the same thing with a 'name' on it and you'll pay
> > four times as much.
> The Lidl /Aldi offerings are good there is no doubt, but they are
> never there when you want them !! You have to be on their mailing
> list and make a judgement to buy when they are available - and then
> they sit around for ages ..... until that magic moment and hey presto
> they do the job. Just been there this afternoon to top up a spare car
> battery just in case, using one of these I bought probably a year
> ago. Serious cold now in Edinburgh and I can see some sluggish
> starting coming up.
They're cheap enough to build into the car. I've done this on my
'classic'. With a waterproof mains connector under the rear bumper.
I get emails from both Aldi and Lidl showing their offers of the week.
With some of them you have to get there early.
--
*Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
m...@privacy.net
> In article <hgkhf6lkfti0ln719...@4ax.com>,
> Terry Fields <no.spa...@thanks.invalid> wrote:
> > >No need to pay silly prices for a sophisticated battery charger. Lidl
> > >and Aldi in the UK both do similar ones for about 14 gbp. They pulse
> > >charge a flat battery, change to a normal charge, then switch to a
> > >maintenance one. Get the same thing with a 'name' on it and you'll pay
> > >four times as much.
>
> > As the battery in the appliance seemed to be a SLA, getting maximum life
> > out of it demands using an appropriate charger rather than a random
> > wall-wart.
>
> Of course. True SLA (gel) should be charged at constant voltage. They're
> not so tolerant as car batteries in this respect.
>
> > I use an Accumate to keep both a SLA and a motorcycle battery
> > in good order - I don't have any experience of the Lidl or Aldi chargers.
>
> These things tend to have different brand names depending on who sells
> them - but most are simply a wall wart with a few pennies of extra
> components. Usually not worth the premium price.
>
My Aldi power station seems to use a basic unstabilised wall wart. However,
it seems to charge up to a reasonable voltage, then cease charging (or go to
a very low current) I've been using it to power some electronics, and I've
been monitoring its voltage. It seems to cut out somewhere between 13.5 and
14 volts.
--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply
Ron
> I get emails from both Aldi and Lidl showing their offers of the week.
> With some of them you have to get there early.
>
That's because bloody market traders are queuing at the door come
opening time to snag all the best stuff!
Ron
David Nebenzahl
> http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/turnstyler/IMG_3573.jpg
>
> A neighbour has dropped in with his discharged and dead "RAC Portable
> Power Station and Engine Starter" which he obtained without the
> necessary DC charger. The starter is a dayglo orange heavy thing with a
> handle and says it can crank 400 Amps.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread, but aren't
those claims for how much current these things will deliver a lot of BS?
I first saw one of these power units a couple weeks ago, when my
neighbor used his to get my van started after he borrowed it and the
battery started going dead. He used it twice, successfully, to
jump-start my half-dead battery. So they do work, apparently. But his
was similarly marked (I think 300 amps). Is there any way that such a
small lead-acid battery could deliver this much juice? I'm skeptical.
--
How To Access Wikileaks
These sites are still up as of 12/3/10:
http://wikileaks.de
http://wikileaks.fi
http://wikileaks.nl
http://wikileaks.eu
http://wikileaks.pl
And these IP addresses can be used:
Dave Plowman (News)
David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread, but aren't
> those claims for how much current these things will deliver a lot of BS?
> I first saw one of these power units a couple weeks ago, when my
> neighbor used his to get my van started after he borrowed it and the
> battery started going dead. He used it twice, successfully, to
> jump-start my half-dead battery. So they do work, apparently. But his
> was similarly marked (I think 300 amps). Is there any way that such a
> small lead-acid battery could deliver this much juice? I'm skeptical.
They vary quite a bit in price. At the cheaper end I've found they will
deliver enough current (when new) to start a car with a flat battery - but
no more than a handful of times. No lead acid battery likes having what is
efficitively (at that size) a dead short across it. And as is common with
so many of these things the battery costs more to replace than the entire
unit.
The one I have is many years old. It won't deliver enough current to start
a car, but still is ok as a self contained compressor for the tyres. And
as a convenient portable 12 volt source for testing things - it will still
supply much more current than my bench PS. And only cost 20 quid...
--
*He loves nature in spite of what it did to him.
David Nebenzahl
> In article <4cfb0d79$0$2411$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com>, David
> Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>
>> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread, but
>> aren't those claims for how much current these things will deliver
>> a lot of BS?
>
>> I first saw one of these power units a couple weeks ago, when my
>> neighbor used his to get my van started after he borrowed it and the
>> battery started going dead. He used it twice, successfully, to
>> jump-start my half-dead battery. So they do work, apparently. But his
>> was similarly marked (I think 300 amps). Is there any way that such a
>> small lead-acid battery could deliver this much juice? I'm skeptical.
>
> They vary quite a bit in price. At the cheaper end I've found they will
> deliver enough current (when new) to start a car with a flat battery - but
> no more than a handful of times.
So how much current do you think they're actually capable of
delivering--say with the little battery fairly fresh and fully charged?
Michael A. Terrell
David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
> On 12/5/2010 2:49 AM Dave Plowman (News) spake thus:
>
> > In article <4cfb0d79$0$2411$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com>, David
> > Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread, but
> >> aren't those claims for how much current these things will deliver
> >> a lot of BS?
> >
> >> I first saw one of these power units a couple weeks ago, when my
> >> neighbor used his to get my van started after he borrowed it and the
> >> battery started going dead. He used it twice, successfully, to
> >> jump-start my half-dead battery. So they do work, apparently. But his
> >> was similarly marked (I think 300 amps). Is there any way that such a
> >> small lead-acid battery could deliver this much juice? I'm skeptical.
> >
> > They vary quite a bit in price. At the cheaper end I've found they will
> > deliver enough current (when new) to start a car with a flat battery - but
> > no more than a handful of times.
>
> So how much current do you think they're actually capable of
> delivering--say with the little battery fairly fresh and fully charged?
Too many variables. What is the amp hour rating of the battery?
What is the internal resistance of the switch? The resistance of the
cables? The resistance of the starter motor? The temperature? How
clean are the battery clamps, and what is the resistance of the battery
cables? The resistance of the starter solenoid?
--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > So how much current do you think they're actually capable of
> > delivering--say with the little battery fairly fresh and fully charged?
> Too many variables. What is the amp hour rating of the battery?
Tiny in automotive terms.
> What is the internal resistance of the switch?
Dunno
> The resistance of the
> cables?
Mine has 16mm² cables. The resistance of the alligator clamps is more
likely the limiting factor.
> The resistance of the starter motor? The temperature? How
> clean are the battery clamps, and what is the resistance of the battery
> cables? The resistance of the starter solenoid?
Non of which matters since the power pack makers claim a maximum output.
--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <P8SdnUBQ2eqr92HR...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > So how much current do you think they're actually capable of
> > > delivering--say with the little battery fairly fresh and fully charged?
>
> > Too many variables. What is the amp hour rating of the battery?
>
> Tiny in automotive terms.
Really? My jump packs have 17 Ah batteries.
Product ID: BSL1117
Cold Cranking Amps: 240
Voltage: 12
Termination: NUT & BOLT
Chemistry: SLA OR VRLA VALVE REGULATED S
Weight: 13.3
Width: 2.99
Length: 7.13
Height: 6.57
My truck uses a size 27 battery with these specs:
Product ID: MTP-27
Amps: 1000
Cranking Amps: 1000
Cold Cranking Amps: 810
Voltage: 12
Termination: A
Pro-rata Warranty: 85
Weight: 47.4
Width: 6.81
Length: 12.06
Height: 8.88
So, it has 24% of the rating of the truck battery which isn't
'tiny'. It is intended to start a vehicle with a run down battery, not
one with mechanical problems. The portable pack is designed with a
different type of battery, as well. The available current is determined
by the plate area and thickness.
I've seen someone use 12V alarm batteries to jump start a service
truck. They were rated at 7 Ah.
> > What is the internal resistance of the switch?
>
> Dunno
>
> > The resistance of the
> > cables?
>
> Mine has 16mm² cables. The resistance of the alligator clamps is more
> likely the limiting factor.
No, all of it is important. If the resistance of the clamps is as
high as the leads, they will overheat since all the resistance is at the
same spot rather than distributed along the length of the cables.
> > The resistance of the starter motor? The temperature? How
> > clean are the battery clamps, and what is the resistance of the battery
> > cables? The resistance of the starter solenoid?
>
> Non of which matters since the power pack makers claim a maximum output.
BS. They all matter, if you aren't an ignorant troll.
What do you think the short circuit current of a fully charged 12V
car battery is?
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> >
> > In article <P8SdnUBQ2eqr92HR...@earthlink.com>,
> > Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > So how much current do you think they're actually capable of
> > > > delivering--say with the little battery fairly fresh and fully
> > > > charged?
> >
> > > Too many variables. What is the amp hour rating of the battery?
> >
> > Tiny in automotive terms.
> Really? My jump packs have 17 Ah batteries.
I suppose it depends on your definition of tiny, but 17 amp.hr is a lot
smaller than any battery in any car I've owned or seen. Both my current
ones have 70 Ah types.
> Product ID: BSL1117
> Cold Cranking Amps: 240
> Voltage: 12
> Termination: NUT & BOLT
> Chemistry: SLA OR VRLA VALVE REGULATED S
> Weight: 13.3
> Width: 2.99
> Length: 7.13
> Height: 6.57
> My truck uses a size 27 battery with these specs:
> Product ID: MTP-27
> Amps: 1000
> Cranking Amps: 1000
> Cold Cranking Amps: 810
> Voltage: 12
> Termination: A
> Pro-rata Warranty: 85
> Weight: 47.4
> Width: 6.81
> Length: 12.06
> Height: 8.88
> So, it has 24% of the rating of the truck battery which isn't
> 'tiny'.
Err, you don't appear to have given the amp.hr capacity - the very thing
you mentioned.
> It is intended to start a vehicle with a run down battery, not
> one with mechanical problems.
> The portable pack is designed with a
> different type of battery, as well. The available current is determined
> by the plate area and thickness.
> I've seen someone use 12V alarm batteries to jump start a service
> truck. They were rated at 7 Ah.
Batteries? Parallel them and they become like a larger one.
> > > What is the internal resistance of the switch?
> >
> > Dunno
> >
> > > The resistance of the
> > > cables?
> >
> > Mine has 16mm² cables. The resistance of the alligator clamps is more
> > likely the limiting factor.
> No, all of it is important. If the resistance of the clamps is as
> high as the leads, they will overheat since all the resistance is at the
> same spot rather than distributed along the length of the cables.
> > > The resistance of the starter motor? The temperature? How clean
> > > are the battery clamps, and what is the resistance of the battery
> > > cables? The resistance of the starter solenoid?
> >
> > Non of which matters since the power pack makers claim a maximum
> > output.
> BS. They all matter, if you aren't an ignorant troll.
> What do you think the short circuit current of a fully charged 12V
> car battery is?
Are you trolling? The maker of the jump start pack claims a maximum
current. Since they can't possibly know exactly what the starter motor etc
draw is, just how is it relevant?
My point is (with experience of several jump start packs including
expensive ones) is that they will not do lots of starts of a vehicle with
a flat battery without permanent damage to the SLA. Somewhere round a
dozen or so seems to be it.
--
*Corduroy pillows are making headlines.
Andy Burns
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I suppose it depends on your definition of tiny, but 17 amp.hr is a lot
> smaller than any battery in any car I've owned or seen. Both my current
> ones have 70 Ah types.
Yeah, but how many minutes would your 70Ah crank for, and how many
seconds does it need to crank for (assuming there's no other problem
with the engine)?
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <o9adnUNjide7i2DR...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <P8SdnUBQ2eqr92HR...@earthlink.com>,
> > > Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > > So how much current do you think they're actually capable of
> > > > > delivering--say with the little battery fairly fresh and fully
> > > > > charged?
> > >
> > > > Too many variables. What is the amp hour rating of the battery?
> > >
> > > Tiny in automotive terms.
>
> > Really? My jump packs have 17 Ah batteries.
>
> I suppose it depends on your definition of tiny, but 17 amp.hr is a lot
> smaller than any battery in any car I've owned or seen. Both my current
> ones have 70 Ah types.
Gee, that's damn close to the 24% figure isn't it? 17/.24 = 70.83
Very few car batteries are given an amp our rating in the US since
they are not used without a charging circuit. If you look at the given
spces you can get an idea though.
It is very relevant, if you stop and think about it.
> My point is (with experience of several jump start packs including
> expensive ones) is that they will not do lots of starts of a vehicle with
> a flat battery without permanent damage to the SLA. Somewhere round a
> dozen or so seems to be it.
You keep changing the subject.
David Nebenzahl
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
>> In article <P8SdnUBQ2eqr92HR...@earthlink.com>,
>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> [I wrote:]
OK, your impeccable documentation has won me over. I withdraw my
objection; the current claims on those jump-packs (300 amps, 400 amps)
must be believable after all. I'm a little surprised, though.
Wild_Bill
term that's not been mentioned so far, is 400A Peak, for this model.
Manufacturers know that Peak is a (multi)million dollar word, whether it's
used with watts, HP, or amps.. because Peak distorts actual specifications.
Consumers love big numbers, and manufacturers know it.
With a properly rated current shunt, and a peak-reading amp meter attached,
one could determine the peak current available from such a small battery.
As Dave P points out, the number of times that a small battery can deliver
the somewhat severe duty discharge rates, is going to be a very limited
number of times.
I didn't purchase this Schumacher power pack as an emergency car battery
jump pack, but instead, only as a portable power supply.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4cfd8cab$0$2403$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Very few car batteries are given an amp our rating in the US since
> they are not used without a charging circuit.
Great. So never used with the engine stopped? All car batteries in the UK
have the amp.hour marked on them. As well as max current, etc.
I have an electronic battery tester - an expensive device. This gives a
instantaneous readout of the capacity in amp.hours. If you don't know what
it should be it is fairly useless.
--
*I brake for no apparent reason.
Dave Plowman (News)
Think you should re-read my posts. Perhaps you addressed your questions to
the wrong person.
--
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *
Dave Plowman (News)
Wild_Bill <wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> As Dave P points out, the number of times that a small battery can
> deliver the somewhat severe duty discharge rates, is going to be a very
> limited number of times.
That was really the only point I was trying to make. The output from my
cheap one was enough to start a car on a few occasions - then not. What
the actual peak power is/was didn't much concern me.
> I didn't purchase this Schumacher power pack as an emergency car battery
> jump pack, but instead, only as a portable power supply.
Mine - despite being quite a few years old - is still fine for this, with
the battery holding its charge well. It also has a built in compressor, so
gets used for tyres. Slow, but does it.
It was remarkable value. Any cordless power tool of its age would have had
a dead battery long since.
--
* I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid
Dave Plowman (News)
David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
> OK, your impeccable documentation has won me over. I withdraw my
> objection; the current claims on those jump-packs (300 amps, 400 amps)
> must be believable after all. I'm a little surprised, though.
I used to work in a TV production facility where some of the prog was made
in the 'studio' - some on location. So there was a fleet of small trucks
used just for this location work. That location might only be a few
minutes drive away. And the trucks left unused at other times. So by
nature many suffered from flat batteries just when needed.
The availability of cheap jump start packs was very appealing. Easy to
store and carry. But in practice, even with the low cost, weren't reliable
enough. So units were made up using a sack trolley and car battery with a
charger attached. So the same sort of idea only larger.
--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <Cdidndz4V7nN6WDR...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Very few car batteries are given an amp our rating in the US since
> > they are not used without a charging circuit.
>
> Great. So never used with the engine stopped?
Sure, but vehicles that are used that way on a regular basis can have
a dual battery system so the starter is on a separate battery. I first
installed some on a pair of large paddle boats at an amusement park in
the early '70s so they could run cart machines for the music while the
283 CID V8 engines were shut down.
> All car batteries in the UK
> have the amp.hour marked on them. As well as max current, etc.
What good does that do the average owner? Do they stand around bars
playing 'My dick is bigger' over car batteries?
> I have an electronic battery tester - an expensive device. This gives a
> instantaneous readout of the capacity in amp.hours. If you don't know what
> it should be it is fairly useless.
Instantaneous? Right. It gives an WAG. Battery testers have been
around for generations. Just because they add a little electronics
doesn't make them magic. Does your car battery tell you the discharge
rate to achieve the marked Ah rating?
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <4cfd8cab$0$2403$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
> David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
> > OK, your impeccable documentation has won me over. I withdraw my
> > objection; the current claims on those jump-packs (300 amps, 400 amps)
> > must be believable after all. I'm a little surprised, though.
>
> I used to work in a TV production facility where some of the prog was made
> in the 'studio' - some on location. So there was a fleet of small trucks
> used just for this location work. That location might only be a few
> minutes drive away. And the trucks left unused at other times. So by
> nature many suffered from flat batteries just when needed.
>
> The availability of cheap jump start packs was very appealing. Easy to
> store and carry. But in practice, even with the low cost, weren't reliable
> enough. So units were made up using a sack trolley and car battery with a
> charger attached. So the same sort of idea only larger.
In the US you can find a combination battery charger & large lead
acid battery built to jump start vehicles. Garages use them, and I've
seen them at large malls. The charge can put out enough current to
start a typical vehicle but if no AC is available they use the battery.
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > I have an electronic battery tester - an expensive device. This gives
> > a instantaneous readout of the capacity in amp.hours. If you don't
> > know what it should be it is fairly useless.
> Instantaneous? Right. It gives an WAG. Battery testers have been
> around for generations. Just because they add a little electronics
> doesn't make them magic.
You don't half talk rubbish. Battery testers used to be large devices.
This is the size of a DVM. And gives an accurate readout of the overall
battery condition. Not just its voltage or how much current it can
deliver. It's invaluable for quick testing of a lead acid battery.
> Does your car battery tell you the discharge
> rate to achieve the marked Ah rating?
It's also a standard in the UK. 20 hour rate.
--
*Wedding dress for sale. Worn once by mistake.*
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <BsWdnYXxd-xFz2PR...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > I have an electronic battery tester - an expensive device. This gives
> > > a instantaneous readout of the capacity in amp.hours. If you don't
> > > know what it should be it is fairly useless.
>
> > Instantaneous? Right. It gives an WAG. Battery testers have been
> > around for generations. Just because they add a little electronics
> > doesn't make them magic.
>
> You don't half talk rubbish. Battery testers used to be large devices.
> This is the size of a DVM. And gives an accurate readout of the overall
> battery condition. Not just its voltage or how much current it can
> deliver. It's invaluable for quick testing of a lead acid battery.
Then explain how it can determine the Ah rating. it sounds like it
tests the battery's ESR and guesses the Ah rating.
> > Does your car battery tell you the discharge
> > rate to achieve the marked Ah rating?
>
> It's also a standard in the UK. 20 hour rate.
So you can leave your headlights on for 20 hours with no problems?
William Sommerwerck
> This gives a instantaneous readout of the capacity in Ah.
> If you don't know what it should be it is fairly useless.
You cannot take an "instantaneous" reading of a cell's Ah capacity. Such a
measurement requires actually draining the battery.
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > You don't half talk rubbish. Battery testers used to be large devices.
> > This is the size of a DVM. And gives an accurate readout of the overall
> > battery condition. Not just its voltage or how much current it can
> > deliver. It's invaluable for quick testing of a lead acid battery.
> Then explain how it can determine the Ah rating. it sounds like it
> tests the battery's ESR and guesses the Ah rating.
It doesn't 'guess' anything. It gives a pretty accurate reading. I'd
suggest you find out for yourself how they work.
>
> > > Does your car battery tell you the discharge
> > > rate to achieve the marked Ah rating?
> >
> > It's also a standard in the UK. 20 hour rate.
> So you can leave your headlights on for 20 hours with no problems?
So you've no clue *either* about how battery capacity is measured?
Hint. Headlights on dip (and the other lights which will be on with them)
amount to around a 12 amp load. That's with 55 watt tungsten headlights.
At a 20 hour rate that would suggest a 240 amp.hour battery just for them
still to be sort of working. But not without problems. Please try it on
your car.
--
*Succeed, in spite of management *
Dave Plowman (News)
I dunno how it actually achieves this, but in practice it's what it does.
And is pretty accurate if you check it against doing an actual discharge.
Nor does it need the battery to be fully charged to test it.
I've used it on many batteries of different capacities - and on known
good ones gives a readout within something like 5% of the stated capacity.
Unless the charge is too low for it to work.
For me, it's invaluable.
--
*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.
William Sommerwerck
Yesterday whiel doing a perfunctory cleanup I came across the Canon 580EX II
flash I'd packed in a carrying case (when visiting a friend) almost a year
ago. The 2700 mAh NiMH PowerEx (MAHA) cells had not been charged since then.
When I turned the flash on, it came to full charge in less than three
seconds.
The cells measured 1.274V, 1.283V, 1.285V, and 1.286V, all higher than the
nominal 1.25V of a NiMH cell. (NiMHs generally come out of a full charge at
around 1.4V.) That's pretty good performance for a cell that's supposed to
"drop dead" within a few weeks of its last charge.
So I ask... Where did this belief that NiMH cells rapidly self-discharge
come from? I never believed it, and here's strong evidence it just isn't
true.
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <dICdneSAm4Z_u2LR...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > You don't half talk rubbish. Battery testers used to be large devices.
> > > This is the size of a DVM. And gives an accurate readout of the overall
> > > battery condition. Not just its voltage or how much current it can
> > > deliver. It's invaluable for quick testing of a lead acid battery.
>
> > Then explain how it can determine the Ah rating. it sounds like it
> > tests the battery's ESR and guesses the Ah rating.
>
> It doesn't 'guess' anything. It gives a pretty accurate reading. I'd
> suggest you find out for yourself how they work.
> >
> > > > Does your car battery tell you the discharge
> > > > rate to achieve the marked Ah rating?
> > >
> > > It's also a standard in the UK. 20 hour rate.
>
> > So you can leave your headlights on for 20 hours with no problems?
>
> So you've no clue *either* about how battery capacity is measured?
No, I don't know anything according to you. I worked on the design
and manufacturing of test instruments that sold for up to $80,000. A
claim like yours needs to be backed up.
> Hint. Headlights on dip (and the other lights which will be on with them)
> amount to around a 12 amp load. That's with 55 watt tungsten headlights.
You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard in
the US. My truck uses 65 W:
Part Number: 9007SU
Weight: 0.157 lbs
Notes: Dual beam
Amperage Draw: 5.08
Bulb Diameter (In): 0.67
Bulb Technology: Halogen
Color Temperature: 4100
DOT / SAE Compliant: Yes
Filament Configuration: C-8
Headlamp Beam: Low & High Beams
Headlamp Bulb Base Design: PX29T
Headlamp Bulb Configuration: T-4 5/8
Headlamp Bulb Number: 9007
Headlamp Wattage: 65
High Beam Wattage: 55
Light Center Length (In): 1.75
Low Beam Wattage: 65
Lumens: 1345
Maximum Overall Length (In): 3.7
Operating Voltage: 12.8
Rated Life (Hours): 250
Vehicle System Voltage: 12V
> At a 20 hour rate that would suggest a 240 amp.hour battery just for them
> still to be sort of working. But not without problems. Please try it on
> your car.
Sigh. How long have you been brain dead?
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard in
> the US. My truck uses 65 W:
You certainly show your ignorance with every post. 'Halogen' is the inert
gas used in some types of filament lamps. The filament is still likely
tungsten.
However, none of that makes a difference in this context. A 55 watt (EU
spec) headlight is a 55 watt headlight.
BTW, my car has HID units. Far more efficient than those ancient 'halogen'
lights. 35 watts produces more light than your 65 watt whatever. They're
pretty well the norm in the UK on new cars above base spec.
--
*There's two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither one works *
William Sommerwerck
> "halogen" lights. 35 watts produces more light than your 65 watt
> whatever. They're pretty well the norm in the UK on new cars
> above base spec.
Are these those blinding-blue bulbs that rip retinas with flesh-frying
force? (Note quadruple use of alliteration.)
Dave Plowman (News)
Dunno. Mine have a colour temperature quite close to filament lamps and a
very sharp cut-off beam pattern. The car also has self levelling
suspension. The earliest versions of them did appear quite 'blue'. Rather
like most 'white' LEDs. ;-)
--
*Income tax service - We宋e got what it takes to take what you've got.
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
> > You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard in
> > the US. My truck uses 65 W:
>
> You certainly show your ignorance with every post. 'Halogen' is the inert
> gas used in some types of filament lamps. The filament is still likely
> tungsten.
>
> However, none of that makes a difference in this context. A 55 watt (EU
> spec) headlight is a 55 watt headlight.
So? Just because they use that spec in a backwards, anti-engineering
country is no reason for anyone else to.
> BTW, my car has HID units. Far more efficient than those ancient 'halogen'
> lights. 35 watts produces more light than your 65 watt whatever. They're
> pretty well the norm in the UK on new cars above base spec.
Sigh. Still can't stick to what you post, can you? First you claim
55 W tungsten, then it's 35 W HID. No wonder you believe the hype about
your magic toy battery tester. The actual Ah rating is determined by
it's use. That 20 Ah rating is only one curve, of many. If you stuck
to it, you couldn't start the vehicle's engine with it. you couldn't use
most car radios without exceeding the proper discharge rate. You
dismiss the total starting circuit resistance as nothing.
As far as HID lamps, they can be seen a lot further away, but most US
drivers don't like them. You get a brighter spot, but don't light the
sides of the road well enough to see animals or people along the side of
a road until it's too late. There are a lot of very long, and high
speed roads in the US where you need that extra illumination.
Dave Plowman (News)
> > inert gas used in some types of filament lamps. The filament is still
> > likely tungsten.
> >
> > However, none of that makes a difference in this context. A 55 watt (EU
> > spec) headlight is a 55 watt headlight.
> So? Just because they use that spec in a backwards, anti-engineering
> country is no reason for anyone else to.
Crikey. Where did that come from? Hate just admitting your mistake?
> > BTW, my car has HID units. Far more efficient than those ancient
> > 'halogen' lights. 35 watts produces more light than your 65 watt
> > whatever. They're pretty well the norm in the UK on new cars above
> > base spec.
> Sigh. Still can't stick to what you post, can you? First you claim
> 55 W tungsten, then it's 35 W HID.
Crikey again. Do you actually think before posting?
> No wonder you believe the hype about
> your magic toy battery tester. The actual Ah rating is determined by
> it's use. That 20 Ah rating is only one curve, of many. If you stuck
> to it, you couldn't start the vehicle's engine with it. you couldn't use
> most car radios without exceeding the proper discharge rate. You
> dismiss the total starting circuit resistance as nothing.
More bollocks. Amp hour and the discharge rate are simply a standard way
of *measuring* that parameter. Other battery parameters are given
separately. For one who claims to be an engineer, this shouldn't need
explaining.
> As far as HID lamps, they can be seen a lot further away, but most US
> drivers don't like them. You get a brighter spot, but don't light the
> sides of the road well enough to see animals or people along the side of
> a road until it's too late. There are a lot of very long, and high
> speed roads in the US where you need that extra illumination.
You've never experienced decent HID lamps. With proper reflector etc
design they can provide any beam pattern you want. Mine produce as even
illumination as you could possibly want - no high spots at all. They also
have a 'spike' at the nearside which illuminates the side of the road
rather further than the main part of the beam. They only provide the dip
beam - the high beam is by ordinary quartz halogen units, which are in
addition to the dips.
--
*He has Van Gogh's ear for music.
John
> measurement requires actually draining the battery.
I used to think that but Google gave many hits like this
http://www.actmeters.com/nsi/33-Battery-Capacity-Tester.php
John
John
> drivers don't like them. Â You get a brighter spot, but don't light the
> sides of the road well enough to see animals or people along the side of
> a road until it's too late. Â There are a lot of very long, and high
> speed roads in the US where you need that extra illumination.
Don't blame the light source for poor optical performance. A good
headlight will give a good beam pattern. A number of people have tried
retrofiting HID bulbs into halogen lamps. The light position and shape
can give a very poor beam pattern, sometimes worse than the original
it replaced.
As for long high speed straights, have a look at what they use in
sports car racing. Last time I checked, every car at Le-Mans was on
HID. 200mph on the Mulsanne straight needs good lights. Equally, rally
cars also use HID. they only do about 130mph but that's on a forrest
track between trees at night.
I thought the US had a 55mph speed limit. Have they changed that? It's
been some time since I was there.
John
William Sommerwerck
>> Such a measurement requires actually draining the battery.
> I used to think that, but Google gave many hits like this
> http://www.actmeters.com/nsi/33-Battery-Capacity-Tester.php
A fascinating product, but I still don't see how it works.
The only method "obvious" (to me) would be to short the cell for a fraction
of a second, and use the measured current to calculate the internal
resistance. * This, in turn, could be used to estimate the cell's Ah
capacity. But this assumes there's a direct correlation of the resistance
with the cell's capacity, regardless of its age or charge condition. Is
there?
* This is the way Microsoft Hardware tested mouse batteries -- but to see
whether they were primary or secondary, and whether the latter were
"defective". The capacity was of little concern.
Andrew Gabriel
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>
> You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard in
> the US. My truck uses 65 W:
The US finally adopted EU vehicle lighting standards after US lighting
engineers spent some 20 years pressuring to be able to use the safer,
more effective, and more modern EU standards in the US, against the
US car manufacturers who didn't want the expense of redesigning their
ancient lighting systems and didn't want competition from foreign
lighting manufacturers.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Dave Plowman (News)
William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> You cannot take an "instantaneous" reading of a cell's Ah capacity.
> >> Such a measurement requires actually draining the battery.
> > I used to think that, but Google gave many hits like this
> > http://www.actmeters.com/nsi/33-Battery-Capacity-Tester.php
> A fascinating product, but I still don't see how it works.
> The only method "obvious" (to me) would be to short the cell for a
> fraction of a second, and use the measured current to calculate the
> internal resistance. * This, in turn, could be used to estimate the
> cell's Ah capacity. But this assumes there's a direct correlation of the
> resistance with the cell's capacity, regardless of its age or charge
> condition. Is there?
I *think* that's the way it works. The crock clips have very sharp 'pins'
to ensure a good contact with the battery terminals.
But having used mine on a variety of sized batteries it really does seem
to give a good indication as to the condition rather than just the charge
state of a battery. In other words if it says a fully charged battery has
the capacity (in amp.hrs) as stated on the battery it is good. Works on
batteries from 1.8 - 200 Ah. If it gives a reading of less than 65% of
that figure, the battery should be replaced. The claim is it simulates a
20 hour test in 6 seconds.
It's no cheap DVM, though. Cost almost 200 gbp - and came with a hand
written calibration certificate. Most decent battery sellers will have
something similar. Even Halfords. ;-)
> * This is the way Microsoft Hardware tested mouse batteries -- but to see
> whether they were primary or secondary, and whether the latter were
> "defective". The capacity was of little concern.
--
*All generalizations are false.
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <99GdnTnMNaKxj53Q...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > You certainly show your ignorance with every post. 'Halogen' is the
> > > inert gas used in some types of filament lamps. The filament is still
> > > likely tungsten.
> > >
> > > However, none of that makes a difference in this context. A 55 watt (EU
> > > spec) headlight is a 55 watt headlight.
>
> > So? Just because they use that spec in a backwards, anti-engineering
> > country is no reason for anyone else to.
>
> Crikey. Where did that come from? Hate just admitting your mistake?
From the current 'Brit Engineering kaput!' thread on
news:sci.electronics.design where they are discussing why all
engineering in England has gone to crap. From the public's attitude
towards engineering, stupid HR staff and brain drain where people with
talent leave England to work elsewhere.
> > > BTW, my car has HID units. Far more efficient than those ancient
> > > 'halogen' lights. 35 watts produces more light than your 65 watt
> > > whatever. They're pretty well the norm in the UK on new cars above
> > > base spec.
>
> > Sigh. Still can't stick to what you post, can you? First you claim
> > 55 W tungsten, then it's 35 W HID.
>
> Crikey again. Do you actually think before posting?
Yes, unlike you. You keep comparing apples to crabapples.
> > No wonder you believe the hype about
> > your magic toy battery tester. The actual Ah rating is determined by
> > it's use. That 20 Ah rating is only one curve, of many. If you stuck
> > to it, you couldn't start the vehicle's engine with it. you couldn't use
> > most car radios without exceeding the proper discharge rate. You
> > dismiss the total starting circuit resistance as nothing.
>
> More bollocks. Amp hour and the discharge rate are simply a standard way
> of *measuring* that parameter. Other battery parameters are given
> separately. For one who claims to be an engineer, this shouldn't need
> explaining.
I know how the damn 'standard' works. It works even better if it has
a relevant base measurement. Starting a vehicle is a completely
different function from a standby power application. Other than
starting the vehicle, little current is drawn from a car's battery if
the charging system works properly. Therfore a '20 Ah rating' is not
the proper standard. That is why the US rates a car battery by CCA. A
worst case condition for starting in cold weather when an engine is
tight and the lubricants are stiff. Your miracle tester won't find a
failing batery. I've had several show no signs of trouble that
developed an open internal connection when you hit the key. Your DMM
sized miracle box won't find that and give warning, but the old
controlled discharge testers will.
> > As far as HID lamps, they can be seen a lot further away, but most US
> > drivers don't like them. You get a brighter spot, but don't light the
> > sides of the road well enough to see animals or people along the side of
> > a road until it's too late. There are a lot of very long, and high
> > speed roads in the US where you need that extra illumination.
>
> You've never experienced decent HID lamps.
Most of what I've seen are on imported cars. They tend to blind
oncoming traffic.
> With proper reflector etc
> design they can provide any beam pattern you want. Mine produce as even
> illumination as you could possibly want - no high spots at all. They also
> have a 'spike' at the nearside which illuminates the side of the road
> rather further than the main part of the beam. They only provide the dip
> beam - the high beam is by ordinary quartz halogen units, which are in
> addition to the dips.
--
Michael A. Terrell
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>
> In article <BuWdnR_IyNUFF2LR...@earthlink.com>,
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> >
> > You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard in
> > the US. My truck uses 65 W:
>
> The US finally adopted EU vehicle lighting standards after US lighting
> engineers spent some 20 years pressuring to be able to use the safer,
> more effective, and more modern EU standards in the US, against the
> US car manufacturers who didn't want the expense of redesigning their
> ancient lighting systems and didn't want competition from foreign
> lighting manufacturers.
So, the Philips and Osram lamps are US made?
Michael A. Terrell
In circuit, without disconnecting from the vehicle? Doesn't that
tell you ANYTHING? It mesures ESR.
Have you read the manual?
The ACT 33 Battery Tester is designed for measuring the internal
resistance,
open-circuit voltage, and terminal temperature of secondary batteries,
including lead storage cells, nickel-cadmium batteries, lithium-ion
batteries
and nickel-metal hydride batteries
<http://www.actmeters.com/manuals/ACT33%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf>
Dave Plowman (News)
Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <BuWdnR_IyNUFF2LR...@earthlink.com>,
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> >
> > You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard
> > in the US. My truck uses 65 W:
> The US finally adopted EU vehicle lighting standards after US lighting
> engineers spent some 20 years pressuring to be able to use the safer,
> more effective, and more modern EU standards in the US, against the
> US car manufacturers who didn't want the expense of redesigning their
> ancient lighting systems and didn't want competition from foreign
> lighting manufacturers.
Older readers may remember Lucas spot light adverts from the '60s - 'are
too powerful for use in some US states'
By the prince of darkness. ;-)
--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.
Michael A. Terrell
John wrote:
>
> > As far as HID lamps, they can be seen a lot further away, but most US
> > drivers don't like them. You get a brighter spot, but don't light the
> > sides of the road well enough to see animals or people along the side of
> > a road until it's too late. There are a lot of very long, and high
> > speed roads in the US where you need that extra illumination.
>
> Don't blame the light source for poor optical performance. A good
> headlight will give a good beam pattern. A number of people have tried
> retrofiting HID bulbs into halogen lamps. The light position and shape
> can give a very poor beam pattern, sometimes worse than the original
> it replaced.
What else would you expect, with the built in reflectors for the
Hallogen bulbs?
> As for long high speed straights, have a look at what they use in
> sports car racing. Last time I checked, every car at Le-Mans was on
> HID. 200mph on the Mulsanne straight needs good lights. Equally, rally
> cars also use HID. they only do about 130mph but that's on a forrest
> track between trees at night.
With loud engines and all traffic in one direction. That is nothing
like driving a typical car at night on a country road. Have you ever
had a horse step out in front of your vehicle? How about a cow that got
out of the pasture's gate, or a large bear? Some areas have had to have
16' high fence built along the sides of roads and a tunnel under the
road to stop the accidents.
> I thought the US had a 55mph speed limit. Have they changed that? It's
> been some time since I was there.
No, 70 MPH has been restored in a lot of places.
>
> John
Meat Plow
> Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>>
>> In article <BuWdnR_IyNUFF2LR...@earthlink.com>,
>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >
>> >
>> > You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard
>> > in
>> > the US. My truck uses 65 W:
>>
>> The US finally adopted EU vehicle lighting standards after US lighting
>> engineers spent some 20 years pressuring to be able to use the safer,
>> more effective, and more modern EU standards in the US, against the US
>> car manufacturers who didn't want the expense of redesigning their
>> ancient lighting systems and didn't want competition from foreign
>> lighting manufacturers.
>
>
> So, the Philips and Osram lamps are US made?
Who wrote this?
"You still use tungsten headlights in Europe? Halogen are standard in
the US. My truck uses 65 W:"
--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
William Sommerwerck
>> fraction of a second, and use the measured current to calculate the
>> internal resistance. * This, in turn, could be used to estimate the
>> cell's Ah capacity. But this assumes there's a direct correlation of the
>> resistance with the cell's capacity, regardless of its age or charge
>> condition. Is there?
> I *think* that's the way it works. The crock clips have very sharp 'pins'
> to ensure a good contact with the battery terminals.
> But having used mine on a variety of sized batteries it really does seem
> to give a good indication as to the condition rather than just the charge
> state of a battery. In other words if it says a fully charged battery has
> the capacity (in amp.hrs) as stated on the battery it is good. Works
> on batteries from 1.8 - 200 Ah. If it gives a reading of less than 65% of
> that figure, the battery should be replaced. The claim is it simulates a
> 20 hour test in 6 seconds.
Have you checked the results against something like the MAHA C9000, which
actually drains the cell?
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> >
> > In article <99GdnTnMNaKxj53Q...@earthlink.com>,
> > Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > You certainly show your ignorance with every post. 'Halogen' is the
> > > > inert gas used in some types of filament lamps. The filament is still
> > > > likely tungsten.
> > > >
> > > > However, none of that makes a difference in this context. A 55
> > > > watt (EU spec) headlight is a 55 watt headlight.
> >
> > > So? Just because they use that spec in a backwards,
> > > anti-engineering country is no reason for anyone else to.
> >
> > Crikey. Where did that come from? Hate just admitting your mistake?
> From the current 'Brit Engineering kaput!' thread on
> news:sci.electronics.design where they are discussing why all
> engineering in England has gone to crap. From the public's attitude
> towards engineering, stupid HR staff and brain drain where people with
> talent leave England to work elsewhere.
You really need to see what UK groups say about the US. ;-)
Or perhaps you feel it's not in some similar form of 'decline'? If so, get
your head out of your arse and look around you. At all the Chinese etc
made consumer goods. Same as here. GM bankrupt yet again - despite having
one of the largest markets on its doorstep. Etc.
I'm no 'my country right or wrong' type. I'll leave that to you.
> > > > BTW, my car has HID units. Far more efficient than those ancient
> > > > 'halogen' lights. 35 watts produces more light than your 65 watt
> > > > whatever. They're pretty well the norm in the UK on new cars above
> > > > base spec.
> >
> > > Sigh. Still can't stick to what you post, can you? First you
> > > claim 55 W tungsten, then it's 35 W HID.
> >
> > Crikey again. Do you actually think before posting?
> Yes, unlike you. You keep comparing apples to crabapples.
Sigh. You're the one doing the comparing - and getting it wrong.
> > > No wonder you believe the hype about your magic toy battery tester.
> > > The actual Ah rating is determined by it's use. That 20 Ah rating
> > > is only one curve, of many. If you stuck to it, you couldn't start
> > > the vehicle's engine with it. you couldn't use most car radios
> > > without exceeding the proper discharge rate. You dismiss the total
> > > starting circuit resistance as nothing.
> >
> > More bollocks. Amp hour and the discharge rate are simply a standard
> > way of *measuring* that parameter. Other battery parameters are given
> > separately. For one who claims to be an engineer, this shouldn't need
> > explaining.
> I know how the damn 'standard' works. It works even better if it has
> a relevant base measurement. Starting a vehicle is a completely
> different function from a standby power application. Other than
> starting the vehicle, little current is drawn from a car's battery if
> the charging system works properly. Therfore a '20 Ah rating' is not
> the proper standard. That is why the US rates a car battery by CCA. A
> worst case condition for starting in cold weather when an engine is
> tight and the lubricants are stiff.
Who are you trying to educate? I'm well aware of the likely loading on a
car battery. UK batteries also give all that information - the Ah one is
in addition.
> Your miracle tester won't find a
> failing batery. I've had several show no signs of trouble that
> developed an open internal connection when you hit the key. Your DMM
> sized miracle box won't find that and give warning, but the old
> controlled discharge testers will.
You really need to do some research before being so certain. Because
you're wrong. My tester will show up a faulty cell - either high impedance
or shorted. Your prehistoric 'controlled discharge' (just an ammeter)
won't - unless you also do other measurements. It also needs skill and
care to use. But perhaps you've never seen a battery blow apart when
having a high discharge test done? I have. My tester doesn't apply the
load until after it is connected.
> > > As far as HID lamps, they can be seen a lot further away, but most
> > > US drivers don't like them. You get a brighter spot, but don't
> > > light the sides of the road well enough to see animals or people
> > > along the side of a road until it's too late. There are a lot of
> > > very long, and high speed roads in the US where you need that extra
> > > illumination.
> >
> > You've never experienced decent HID lamps.
> Most of what I've seen are on imported cars. They tend to blind
> oncoming traffic.
I have no idea of the construction and use regulations in the US. If they
are only fitted to imports, it shows just how far behind the times Detroit
is. FWIW badly set filament lights can dazzle too. Or ones with just plain
poor optical design. HID lamps are much more efficient. If they are
designed to the same light output as 'halogen' you benefit from less
energy use. If similar savings are made elsewhere in a car, you specify a
smaller alternator and cable sizes. Etc.
> > With proper reflector etc design they can provide any beam pattern you
> > want. Mine produce as even illumination as you could possibly want -
> > no high spots at all. They also have a 'spike' at the nearside which
> > illuminates the side of the road rather further than the main part of
> > the beam. They only provide the dip beam - the high beam is by
> > ordinary quartz halogen units, which are in addition to the dips.
--
*We waste time, so you don't have to *
Dave Plowman (News)
William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > But having used mine on a variety of sized batteries it really does
> > seem to give a good indication as to the condition rather than just
> > the charge state of a battery. In other words if it says a fully
> > charged battery has the capacity (in amp.hrs) as stated on the battery
> > it is good. Works on batteries from 1.8 - 200 Ah. If it gives a
> > reading of less than 65% of that figure, the battery should be
> > replaced. The claim is it simulates a 20 hour test in 6 seconds.
> Have you checked the results against something like the MAHA C9000, which
> actually drains the cell?
No. I'm only really concerned if a battery is fit for further service.
With a quick check. Which this device does pretty well.
--
*A person who smiles in the face of adversity probably has a scapegoat *
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> > From the current 'Brit Engineering kaput!' thread on
> > news:sci.electronics.design where they are discussing why all
> > engineering in England has gone to crap. From the public's attitude
> > towards engineering, stupid HR staff and brain drain where people with
> > talent leave England to work elsewhere.
>
> You really need to see what UK groups say about the US. ;-)
You should read that thread and see what other Brits are saying bad
about themselves. They are the ones complaining about what has happened
to the electronics industry in England.
> Or perhaps you feel it's not in some similar form of 'decline'? If so, get
> your head out of your arse and look around you. At all the Chinese etc
> made consumer goods. Same as here. GM bankrupt yet again - despite having
> one of the largest markets on its doorstep. Etc.
The US electronics industry isn't consumer grade crap. It is
Military, Aerospace, Instrumentation and Medical Equipment.
> I'm no 'my country right or wrong' type. I'll leave that to you.
I don't make that claim, but anytime someone outside the US disagrees,
they toss out that straw man.
> > > > Sigh. Still can't stick to what you post, can you? First you
> > > > claim 55 W tungsten, then it's 35 W HID.
> > >
> > > Crikey again. Do you actually think before posting?
>
> > Yes, unlike you. You keep comparing apples to crabapples.
>
> Sigh. You're the one doing the comparing - and getting it wrong.
Tell me, what have you designed? Have you ever worked in a metrology
lab repairing and calibrating test equipment? Have you built space
qualified electronics and seen them used from space?
> > I know how the damn 'standard' works. It works even better if it has
> > a relevant base measurement. Starting a vehicle is a completely
> > different function from a standby power application. Other than
> > starting the vehicle, little current is drawn from a car's battery if
> > the charging system works properly. Therfore a '20 Ah rating' is not
> > the proper standard. That is why the US rates a car battery by CCA. A
> > worst case condition for starting in cold weather when an engine is
> > tight and the lubricants are stiff.
>
> Who are you trying to educate? I'm well aware of the likely loading on a
> car battery. UK batteries also give all that information - the Ah one is
> in addition.
It was dropped long ago in the US, because it has no meaning for a
car battery.
> > Your miracle tester won't find a
> > failing batery. I've had several show no signs of trouble that
> > developed an open internal connection when you hit the key. Your DMM
> > sized miracle box won't find that and give warning, but the old
> > controlled discharge testers will.
>
> You really need to do some research before being so certain. Because
> you're wrong. My tester will show up a faulty cell - either high impedance
> or shorted.
It won't detect a failing internal connection.
> Your prehistoric 'controlled discharge' (just an ammeter)
> won't - unless you also do other measurements. It also needs skill and
> care to use.
Skill? They were automated battery testers. Even a fast food drone
could use one.
> But perhaps you've never seen a battery blow apart when
> having a high discharge test done? I have.
I've had two vehicles that had a battery explode while someone was
driving them.
> My tester doesn't apply the load until after it is connected.
Duh! How could it, if it isn't connected? ;-)
> > > You've never experienced decent HID lamps.
>
> > Most of what I've seen are on imported cars. They tend to blind
> > oncoming traffic.
>
> I have no idea of the construction and use regulations in the US. If they
> are only fitted to imports, it shows just how far behind the times Detroit
> is.
In what universe does MOST mean 'only fitted to imports'?
> FWIW badly set filament lights can dazzle too. Or ones with just plain
> poor optical design.
They have to meet the current standards in the US before the vehicle
can be offer for sale.
> HID lamps are much more efficient. If they are
> designed to the same light output as 'halogen' you benefit from less
> energy use. If similar savings are made elsewhere in a car, you specify a
> smaller alternator and cable sizes. Etc.
The original lumen limit was set when highways were two lane, with no
space in between the lanes of opposing traffic. It was good engineering,
for its time. Now, most highways have more than two lanes, and a 50' or
wider strip between the two sets of roads so other types of lighting can
be used.
A smaller alternator? I prefer the largest I can get. I have been
in situations were a vehicle required frequent starts, and a smaller
alternator just couldn't keep up with the demand. Smaller wire? I make
battery cables from #1 AWG welding cable, instead of the standard #6
AWG. The reduced voltage drop in the starter circuit makes the engine
start faster, reduces wear on the start motor and increases battery
life. A 25% drop across the battery cables during starting wastes a lot
of energy as heat. On a high compression V8 engine that was already at
operating temperature I have seen a 6 volt drop, and the stock cables
get to warm to touch. That was in my 1966 Pontiac GTO. After I put the
custom battery cables on, the loss was about .75 volts. It would start
just as fast when it was hot as when it was cold. That engine had over
220 pounds compression right after the engine was rebuilt, and before
the new rings had seated.
What else are you going to make more efficient? Take out the radio
and get rid of the vehicle's ECU?
Use crap if you want to, but don't tell me what to do.
I've spent time where the daytime high stayed below -20F for months
at a time, with a record low of -69F.
Dave Plowman (News)
> Tell me, what have you designed? Have you ever worked in a metrology
> lab repairing and calibrating test equipment? Have you built space
> qualified electronics and seen them used from space?
If you're claiming to have done all this, how can you get it wrong about
something so simple as a modern battery tester?
Perhaps you're just living in the past.
--
*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls?
Steve Firth
> I've spent time where the daytime high stayed below -20F for months
> at a time, with a record low of -69F.
This is the 21st century, use SI units.
David Nebenzahl
What's the 21st century got to do with anything?
We (US) don't use those units (at least not in ordinary,
non-engineering, non-technical usage), thank you very much. (And yes,
lots of folks, myself included, like it that way.)
--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:
To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
Michael A. Terrell
The record was set last millenium, and that was when I was there. I
appologize that you aren't smart enough to do the conversions.
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <euednQmDP4tw6Z_Q...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > Tell me, what have you designed? Have you ever worked in a metrology
> > lab repairing and calibrating test equipment? Have you built space
> > qualified electronics and seen them used from space?
>
> If you're claiming to have done all this, how can you get it wrong about
> something so simple as a modern battery tester?
>
> Perhaps you're just living in the past.
Perhaps you live on a fantasy world.
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> >
> > In article <euednQmDP4tw6Z_Q...@earthlink.com>,
> > Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Tell me, what have you designed? Have you ever worked in a
> > > metrology lab repairing and calibrating test equipment? Have you
> > > built space qualified electronics and seen them used from space?
> >
> > If you're claiming to have done all this, how can you get it wrong
> > about something so simple as a modern battery tester?
> >
> > Perhaps you're just living in the past.
> Perhaps you live on a fantasy world.
Tell you what, Michael, buy one of these ACT units and give it a proper
work out.
I have one and say it does what it claims to do.
You don't, and appear to be basing your views on 'experience' which is
years out of date.
Or you could just visit a decent battery shop and see what they use these
days.
--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*
Dave Plowman (News)
> You should read that thread and see what other Brits are saying bad
> about themselves. They are the ones complaining about what has happened
> to the electronics industry in England.
And you think there are no US citizens who say bad things about your
country? But perhaps you'd wish them silenced. You certainly give the
impression of not wanting to allow others to have their own opinion.
--
*Young at heart -- slightly older in other places
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <tJOdnVZd_LO5ZJ_Q...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <euednQmDP4tw6Z_Q...@earthlink.com>,
> > > Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > Tell me, what have you designed? Have you ever worked in a
> > > > metrology lab repairing and calibrating test equipment? Have you
> > > > built space qualified electronics and seen them used from space?
> > >
> > > If you're claiming to have done all this, how can you get it wrong
> > > about something so simple as a modern battery tester?
> > >
> > > Perhaps you're just living in the past.
>
> > Perhaps you live on a fantasy world.
>
> Tell you what, Michael, buy one of these ACT units and give it a proper
> work out.
The one that was mentioned by model number was quoted at 399 British
pounds. I have better things to spend money on that overpriced toys.
> I have one and say it does what it claims to do.
>
> You don't, and appear to be basing your views on 'experience' which is
> years out of date.
>
> Or you could just visit a decent battery shop and see what they use these
> days.
Modern? Or set up for complete idiot employees?
Michael A. Terrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <euednQmDP4tw6Z_Q...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > You really need to see what UK groups say about the US. ;-)
>
> > You should read that thread and see what other Brits are saying bad
> > about themselves. They are the ones complaining about what has happened
> > to the electronics industry in England.
>
> And you think there are no US citizens who say bad things about your
> country? But perhaps you'd wish them silenced. You certainly give the
> impression of not wanting to allow others to have their own opinion.
Yawn. You don't know me at all. It doesn't matter, though. I'm
sure you wouldn't beleive what anyone told you about me.
Dave Plowman (News)
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Tell you what, Michael, buy one of these ACT units and give it a proper
> > work out.
> The one that was mentioned by model number was quoted at 399 British
> pounds. I have better things to spend money on that overpriced toys.
Mine was used for pro purposes and in no way a toy. And was worth its
cost for convenience alone - your dinosaur type wouldn't fit in a pocket.
However, the one I have cost nothing like that much. I've had it for
several years. This appears to be the latest model - and seems to be well
regarded in your country.
<http://www.actmeters.com/Copy of
GOLD-IBT-Intelligent-Battery-Tester-1.php>
--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.
Meat Plow
> Steve Firth wrote:
>>
>> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I've spent time where the daytime high stayed below -20F for
>> > months
>> > at a time, with a record low of -69F.
>>
>> This is the 21st century, use SI units.
>
>
> The record was set last millenium, and that was when I was there. I
> appologize that you aren't smart enough to do the conversions.
Looks like you've got yourself into quite the pissing match with a couple
of these do it yourself retards.