solder won't come out of hole

[Tom Del Rosso]

For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get a
dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on both
leads.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:53:01 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
>hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
>obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get a
>dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on both
>leads.

Probably a multilayer board with a big ground plane acting as a heat
sink.

Find some compressed air and a cardboard box.
Get the solder melted with a soldering iron. Use flux.
Point the back side of the PCB towards the cardboard box.
Heat the back side of the PCB with the soldering iron.
Apply the compressed air nozzle to the circuit side.
Remove the soldering iron and very quickly blow some compressed air
through the hold. The dross should land inside the cardboard box.

Also, pointed dental picks don't work well because there's too much
room for the solder in the hole with the tapered tip. Use a paper
clip or stainless piece of wire instead.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Cydrome Leader]

Tom Del Rosso <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>

> For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
> hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
> obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get a
> dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on both
> leads.

add fress solder and try again.

burned up and oxidized tips and traces don't conduct heat well and won't
melt solder in a thick or multilayer board. get some solder wick, the
stuff is magic for things like this.

[Ian Field]

"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:ju4g3k$l19$1...@dont-email.me...

For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get a
dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on both
leads.

***Start by flowing in some 60/40 - at least if you can attack it at a lower
temperature, it'll take longer to cook the copper/pcb bond.

***If you're using a solder sucker, putting the nozzle off center on the
hole can sometimes draw molten solder out the top of a blocked hole - you
need to do both sides before attacking the blockage.

***Resist the temptation to force a pin through while heating the solder -
almost always takes the through plating with it.

[ne...@jecarter.us]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:53:01 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
>hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
>obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get a
>dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on both
>leads.

A Solder Sucker is much better than a dental pick (I've used both).
The solder sucker can be used on one side of the board while the iron
is still on the pad on the other side of the board, which is when the
solder is at its most liquid state.

[mike]

On 7/17/2012 1:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:53:01 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
> <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
>> hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
>> obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get a
>> dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on both
>> leads.
>
> Probably a multilayer board with a big ground plane acting as a heat
> sink.
>

You left out the MOST IMPORTANT first step!!!
Wear eye protection!!!
Compressed air and molten solder is a recipe for blindness!!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:37:31 -0700, mike <spa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>You left out the MOST IMPORTANT first step!!!
>Wear eye protection!!!
>Compressed air and molten solder is a recipe for blindness!!

Thanks. Y'er right. Goggles or a face mask are a must.

Back in the days when it was worth the effort, I used to remove
components from a PCB by clamping one end of the board in a bench vise
and heating the solder side with a propane torch. When the solder was
good and hot, I would pull the board back and let go. The components
and the solder would go flying in the opposite direction into a
cardboard box. I always wore a face mask, but still managed to burn
myself in obscure places.

[John Robertson]

Of course there is also the "Whack" method of solder removal. Heat the
item up, and whack it against the bench really quickly.

Alternatively find some very low temperature solder - like Chip-Quick
solder - and melt it into the existing solder. Then it is much easier to
remove.

http://store.curiousinventor.com/chip-quikr-surface-mount-desoldering-kit.html

(not my store!)

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[Jamie]

Tom Del Rosso wrote:

> For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
> hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
> obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get a
> dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on both
> leads.
>
>

If you have some indium base solder or old leaded solder, reflow it with
that, then suck it out..
Also, I've used my hot air wand to clear the holes.

Jamie

[Tom Del Rosso]

Thanks all.

I got it by applying an iron to one side and the vacuum to the other side.
The Pace desolder station doesn't get hot enough.

I was also using lead-free when I added solder to help it melt. 60/40
worked better.

What's the word on using 60/40 on the replacement?

[mike]

On 7/17/2012 9:52 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

> I was also using lead-free when I added solder to help it melt. 60/40
> worked better.
>
> What's the word on using 60/40 on the replacement?
>
>

Depending on where you live, it's probably illegal.
But you'd never be prosecuted, because nobody would know...
unless you blabbed it to a few hundred million people on the internet.
;-)

[Chas]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:7gnNr.4237$jA7....@newsfe15.iad...

Carefully drill the solder out with a PCB drill slightly smaller than the
hole.
--
Regards,

Chas.

(To email me, replace "xxx" with letters tango papa golf.)

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:qnrb08hodnmfu6v4v...@4ax.com...

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:37:31 -0700, mike <spa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>You left out the MOST IMPORTANT first step!!!
>Wear eye protection!!!
>Compressed air and molten solder is a recipe for blindness!!

Thanks. Y'er right. Goggles or a face mask are a must.

Back in the days when it was worth the effort, I used to remove
components from a PCB by clamping one end of the board in a bench vise
and heating the solder side with a propane torch. When the solder was
good and hot, I would pull the board back and let go. The components
and the solder would go flying in the opposite direction into a
cardboard box.

***Hot air (electric paint stripper) gun and a stiff paintbush - perfect for
harvesting SMD parts.

[Ian Field]

"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:ju5fp8$mfc$1...@dont-email.me...

***Original manufacturers have made remarkable progress in applying RoHS
solder so the components don't fall off after a year or so - unreliability
can rear its ugly head if you pb free solder with the kit on a typical
repair bench.

***If you do get called to book for using 60/40 - just claim that its old
equipment, and you believed that's what it was originally made with.

***If its for hobby purposes and not for resale, that's also exempt.

[Ian Field]

"Jamie" wrote in message news:7gnNr.4237$jA7....@newsfe15.iad...

Tom Del Rosso wrote:

> For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
> hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
> obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get
> a dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on
> both leads.
>
>
If you have some indium base solder or old leaded solder, reflow it with
that, then suck it out..

***Way back in the days of hybrid CTVs, I remember an old Tandberg telly
that had a "safety pin" style thermal fuse connecting the top cap of the
horizontal sweep tube, just inside the timebase cage was a clip holding a
small roll of low temperature cadmium solder (and a warning label not to use
60/40) for resetting the fuse.

***No doubt the Brussels suits reaction to lead solder would pale into
insignificance compared to cadmium solder!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:44:45 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>***Hot air (electric paint stripper) gun and a stiff paintbush - perfect for
>harvesting SMD parts.

Yep, but I don't do it that way. With SMD, the problem is identifying
the parts after they've been removed. I usually just want the active
components anyway. So, I have a hot air desoldering station to remove
the chips individually with the help of some liquid flux. The parts
are then bagged and labeled in paper coin bags. A mess of random SMT
components does me no good when I have to spend hours trying to
identify or find a specific component.

Overall, the small parts are so cheap, that I'm questioning whether
it's even worth salvaging the parts. Certainly for RAM, uP, and
possibly BGA chips. However, it's usually easier, cheaper, and takes
less time to just order the parts from a distributor. Also, I suspect
that I only use maybe 1 part for every 100 parts that I scrap.
Recently, I've gone back to just storing the PCB's, and pulling off
parts as needed.

[Jim Yanik]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:v3hb08d01depv0meu...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:53:01 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
><td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of
>>a hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's
>>like an obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then
>>I can't get a dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap
>>pulled out easily on both leads.
>
> Probably a multilayer board with a big ground plane acting as a heat
> sink.
>
> Find some compressed air and a cardboard box.
> Get the solder melted with a soldering iron. Use flux.
> Point the back side of the PCB towards the cardboard box.
> Heat the back side of the PCB with the soldering iron.
> Apply the compressed air nozzle to the circuit side.
> Remove the soldering iron and very quickly blow some compressed air
> through the hold. The dross should land inside the cardboard box.
>
> Also, pointed dental picks don't work well because there's too much
> room for the solder in the hole with the tapered tip. Use a paper
> clip or stainless piece of wire instead.
>

sounds like a job for Chip-Quik or other low-melting-point solder.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

[Jim Yanik]

Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in
news:ju4i0h$ocl$1...@reader1.panix.com:

solder wick on a multilayer board can cause internal expansion and
internal,unseen breaking of vias and plated-thru holes.

[Jim Yanik]

ne...@jecarter.us wrote in
news:bqlb08dmvtt2u5pmd...@4ax.com:

I concur.

[Jim Yanik]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in

news:f9nd0812gqb59gn75...@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:44:45 +0100, "Ian Field"
><gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>***Hot air (electric paint stripper) gun and a stiff paintbush -
>>perfect for harvesting SMD parts.
>
> Yep, but I don't do it that way. With SMD, the problem is identifying
> the parts after they've been removed. I usually just want the active
> components anyway. So, I have a hot air desoldering station to remove
> the chips individually with the help of some liquid flux. The parts
> are then bagged and labeled in paper coin bags. A mess of random SMT
> components does me no good when I have to spend hours trying to
> identify or find a specific component.
>
> Overall, the small parts are so cheap, that I'm questioning whether
> it's even worth salvaging the parts. Certainly for RAM, uP, and
> possibly BGA chips. However, it's usually easier, cheaper, and takes
> less time to just order the parts from a distributor. Also, I suspect
> that I only use maybe 1 part for every 100 parts that I scrap.
> Recently, I've gone back to just storing the PCB's, and pulling off
> parts as needed.
>

I would be VERY leery of a BGA "re-used";
I don't believe one can get the inner pads to solder reliably.

[Jim Yanik]

"Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:gdzNr.12270$GO2....@fx05.am4:

if you sucked out the applied solder,there's probably little leaded solder
left to "harm" anyone. maybe not even detectable with their usual tests.

And I'm not going to tell on you. :-)

[Jim Yanik]

"Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in

news:IjzNr.11534$N4....@fx07.am4:

ACH,the HORROR!!!!!

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message

news:f9nd0812gqb59gn75...@4ax.com...

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:44:45 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>***Hot air (electric paint stripper) gun and a stiff paintbush - perfect
>for
>harvesting SMD parts.

Yep, but I don't do it that way. With SMD, the problem is identifying
the parts after they've been removed. I usually just want the active
components anyway.

***One thing I particularly go after is the larger multilayer SMD chip
capacitors, surprisingly large values in surprisingly small package. Also
the larger discrete semiconductors, the TO251/252 fit less veroboard space
than a TO92.

[Ian Field]

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
news:XnsA0948371EC7D7...@216.168.3.44...

***WEEE wasn't even a glint in someone's eye back then - thousands of those
sets went to landfill with the roll of cadmium solder untouched.

***Round about WW2 time - ish; component leads weren't tinned - they were
cad plated.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> I would be VERY leery of a BGA "re-used";
> I don't believe one can get the inner pads to solder reliably.

It's done all the time, but you have to 'reball' the chip first.
Then it's exactly like using a new part. Military & medical have to
have the lead free crap repalced with real solder balls. You can buy
the balls and simple tooling on Ebay for very little money to reball
them yourself.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Chas wrote:
>
> "Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:7gnNr.4237$jA7....@newsfe15.iad...
> > Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> >
> >> For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
> >> hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like
> >> an obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't
> >> get a dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out
> >> easily on both leads.
> >>
> >>
> > If you have some indium base solder or old leaded solder, reflow it with
> > that, then suck it out..
> > Also, I've used my hot air wand to clear the holes.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> >
>
> Carefully drill the solder out with a PCB drill slightly smaller than the
> hole.

And take out part of the via (your 'hole') in the process? A board
with damaged vias would be scrapped at the factory.

[Jon Elson]

Tom Del Rosso wrote:

>
> For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
> hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like an
> obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't get
> a
> dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out easily on
> both leads.
>
>

It probably is lead-free solder. Dilute the solder with tin-lead solder,
which will lower the melting point. Then, use a solder sucker, solder
wick or what have you to clear the hole.

Jon

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 11:50:18 -0500, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
wrote:

>I would be VERY leery of a BGA "re-used";
>I don't believe one can get the inner pads to solder reliably.

True. It's NOT easily done. I've only tried one large BGA chip and
it didn't work. However, I've successfully replacing two smaller BGA
wireless chips. Instead of reballing, I used solder paste on both the
chip and the PCB. Then reflow with a hot air desoldering station.
Here's the general idea:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB1InDsWCjQ>
except that I used solder paste instead of trying to make solder balls
on the BGA chip. Note the copious use of (paste) flux. (Incidentally,
the cell phone is a Qualcomm QCP-6035).

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 11:45:43 -0500, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in

(...)

>> Also, pointed dental picks don't work well because there's too much
>> room for the solder in the hole with the tapered tip. Use a paper
>> clip or stainless piece of wire instead.

>sounds like a job for Chip-Quik or other low-melting-point solder.

I've never tried the stuff. The problem is that dross (oxidized
solder) will not flow, wick, or can be easily blown through the hole.
All that's really needed is some 60-40 and a little flux. Once the
dross is gone or disolved, the solder should flow and the hole clear
easily. Chip-Quik sounds like an interesting way to do a whole IC at
once, but I have a hot air desoldering station that works.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:56:05 +1000, "Chas" <uml...@xxx.com.au> wrote:

>Carefully drill the solder out with a PCB drill slightly smaller than the
>hole.

Bad idea. That usually rips out the plating in the hole. The drill
collects a mix of solder and copper around the outside, which galls
together with the solder plating inside the hole, and eventually rips
out the plating. Even if you can find a workable drill, keeping the
drill exactly perpendicular to the PCB is quite difficult.

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message

news:ngae08p39a08lmafh...@4ax.com...

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:56:05 +1000, "Chas" <uml...@xxx.com.au> wrote:

>Carefully drill the solder out with a PCB drill slightly smaller than the
>hole.

Bad idea. That usually rips out the plating in the hole. The drill
collects a mix of solder and copper around the outside, which galls
together with the solder plating inside the hole, and eventually rips
out the plating. Even if you can find a workable drill, keeping the
drill exactly perpendicular to the PCB is quite difficult.

***I'm with those against drilling - maybe with a drill bit *MUCH* smaller
than the hole, but if the cutting tip hits a hard obstruction it'll take
chunks out of the through plate wall in preference.

[Jamie]

Chas wrote:

> "Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:7gnNr.4237$jA7....@newsfe15.iad...
>
>>Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out of a
>>>hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out. It's like
>>>an obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but even then I can't
>>>get a dental pick as deep as in the other hole. The cap pulled out
>>>easily on both leads.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>If you have some indium base solder or old leaded solder, reflow it with
>>that, then suck it out..
>> Also, I've used my hot air wand to clear the holes.
>>
>>Jamie
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Carefully drill the solder out with a PCB drill slightly smaller than the
> hole.

you must be careful to not remove the vias conductor when doing so.

Jamie

[Tom Del Rosso]

ne...@jecarter.us wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:53:01 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"

> <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> >
> > For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out
> > of a hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out.
> > It's like an obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but
> > even then I can't get a dental pick as deep as in the other hole.
> > The cap pulled out easily on both leads.
>

> A Solder Sucker is much better than a dental pick (I've used both).
> The solder sucker can be used on one side of the board while the iron
> is still on the pad on the other side of the board, which is when the
> solder is at its most liquid state.

That's exactly what I ended up doing. I was not using a pick to clear the
hole, but only to test it. I have a Pace vacuum station, but it doesn't get
hot enough for lead-free even when mixed with 60/40.

[N_Cook]

Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:XnsA094833E1873C...@216.168.3.44...

From someone in a high-reliability RoHS derogated industry, it is quite a
work-up to test for elemental lead on the "tinning" of component leads.
Their problem is false-manifest/specced components that are bought supposed
to be the now expensive leaded tining , actually being now-standard PbF
components and fraudulently traded.

[Ian Field]

"Jamie" wrote in message news:y%HNr.15630$Kb4....@newsfe20.iad...

***Easier said than done!

[Jamie]

I have a tip I made for my Hot air wand that has a hypodermic needle on
it. I heat it up and hit the air switch and push it through the hole.

Jamie..

[N_Cook]

Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message

news:y81Or.10676$jA7...@newsfe15.iad...

What is that like with PbF ?. Hypos use stainless steel and I find stainless
steel is a reasonable identifier of PbF as it determinedly sticks to
stainless steel, does the capilliary bore of the needle then totally block
with solder?

[Ian Field]

"Jamie" wrote in message news:y81Or.10676$jA7...@newsfe15.iad...

***Many years ago I made an SMD harvesting machine out of a portable LPG
heater and an old fridge compressor.

***The copper pipe was coiled and stuffed behind the guard on the heater,
right in front of the burners. A carburetor jet was peened into the end of
the copper pipe to produce a fierce jet of very hot air.

***A cardboard box on its side opposite the nozzle caught most of the low
flying SMDs, but I had to abandon it because it was just too hot sitting so
close to the heater.

[Michael A. Terrell]

N_Cook wrote:

>
> Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > I have a tip I made for my Hot air wand that has a hypodermic needle on
> > it. I heat it up and hit the air switch and push it through the hole.
> >
> > Jamie..
> >
>
> What is that like with PbF ?. Hypos use stainless steel and I find stainless
> steel is a reasonable identifier of PbF as it determinedly sticks to
> stainless steel, does the capilliary bore of the needle then totally block
> with solder?

According to what he wrote he is forcing hot air through the needele, so
solder can't get inside it.

[Jamie]

you have your air pump when when doing so. No, it does not stick to the
needles I use. In fact, I can just shake it and the solder will fall off.

Jamie

[Jamie]

When smt first started coming out, many of them were reusable and I had
and old converted reflow toaster oven. Any boards I was trying to
salvage smt parts on, I would switch on only the bottom heater to high
and stick the board in there with a catch tray. Just keep tapping on
the board top side with a metal wand so not to burn my fingers. This
would knock off the components into the tray below and I could sort out
the ones I wanted to keep.

I harvest lots of smt parts doing that but after some time when money
wasn't so tight, I then started to buy more new parts and found that
easier. I still have a converted reflow oven I use when I do hand
batches of small items.

Jamie

[Wild_Bill]

I fully agree that adding leaded solder (and using a touch of liquid flux)
will make removal much easier.

I often carefully use a round toothpick during the heat application to clear
a blocked hole when I don't feel like setting up the desoldering station.

I consider the RoHS regulations pointless for repairs, as repairs aren't
manufacturing. If a tiny amount of lead would ever end up being an issue
during recycling, then it's the recycler's problem (to me, same as some food
left in a jar or the label on a recycled container).

If the disposal of the same tiny amount of lead would be an environmental
problem, then the waste company should be sending the item to a recycler
instead of dumping it in a pit.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............


"Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:ju4g3k$l19$1...@dont-email.me...

[Ian Field]

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
news:lMSOr.435914$%Q3.4...@en-nntp-15.dc1.easynews.com...

I fully agree that adding leaded solder (and using a touch of liquid flux)
will make removal much easier.

I often carefully use a round toothpick during the heat application to clear
a blocked hole when I don't feel like setting up the desoldering station.

I consider the RoHS regulations pointless for repairs, as repairs aren't
manufacturing. If a tiny amount of lead would ever end up being an issue
during recycling,

***In the UK we still have miles of Roman lead water pipes buried in the
ground, and many more miles of the stuff that wasn't dug up in the 60's due
to misplaced planning documents. We also have plenty of roofs made of lead
sheet that are lashed by rain and hail that runs down into the groundwater -
although metal thieves nicking the lead off roofs are taking care of that.

***Lead was mined out of the ground in the first place - whoever thought up
that paragraph in the directive was clearly dropped on their head many times
when they were little!

[josephkk]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:11:52 +0100, "Ian Field"

<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
>news:f9nd0812gqb59gn75...@4ax.com...
>
>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:44:45 +0100, "Ian Field"
><gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>***Hot air (electric paint stripper) gun and a stiff paintbush - perfect
>>for
>>harvesting SMD parts.
>
>Yep, but I don't do it that way. With SMD, the problem is identifying
>the parts after they've been removed. I usually just want the active
>components anyway.
>
>***One thing I particularly go after is the larger multilayer SMD chip
>capacitors, surprisingly large values in surprisingly small package. Also
>the larger discrete semiconductors, the TO251/252 fit less veroboard space
>than a TO92.

Ian, lose the microshit live garbage and use a real news reader. It is
similar to wearing appropriate clothes.

?-)

[Ian Field]

"josephkk" wrote in message
news:sfoo08dtq0d58rga7...@4ax.com...

***I've just installed Xananews which has halted with "pipeline out of
sequence" error and refuses to load any messages in the group I've
subscribed so far.

***Also installed Gravity - loads messages and indents correctly but the UI
is an utter shambles!!!

[Phil Hobbs]

Hey, Ian, what's with the three asterisks? It makes you look like an
Allison and a half. (*)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) Phil A. uses two asterisks.
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Ian Field]

"Phil Hobbs" wrote in message news:500C6B99...@electrooptical.net...

### You have trouble reading!!!?

[Jim Yanik]

"Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in

news:ACZOr.277712$Jh3.1...@fx28.am4:

XNews works well,and it's free. it's also simple,ideal for me!

[Ian Field]

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message

news:XnsA098B362A9F6j...@216.168.3.44...

### that's what I always use for multipart binaries, but I can't get along
with the UI for posting on text only groups.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:40:01 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:


>> Ian, lose the microshit live garbage and use a real news reader. It
>> is similar to wearing appropriate clothes.
>>
>> ***I've just installed Xananews which has halted with "pipeline out of
>> sequence" error and refuses to load any messages in the group I've
>> subscribed so far.
>>
>> ***Also installed Gravity - loads messages and indents correctly but
>> the UI is an utter shambles!!!

>XNews works well,and it's free. it's also simple,ideal for me!
>
>### that's what I always use for multipart binaries, but I can't get along
>with the UI for posting on text only groups.

Microsloth removed prefixing quoted messages with "> " in Windoze Live
Mail 15 last year. You can install earlier versions (WLM 2009, or WLM
2011) and you'll have proper quoting. This explains the situation:
<http://www.w7forums.com/windows-live-mail-11-reply-t10514.html>
with some additional notes on quoting in Outlook Express.

I would strongly recommend finding an alternative newsreader as your
creative formatting is difficult to read, and makes little sense as
you should be marking the quotes, not your added comments. I
recommend Forte Agent 7 which does cost $29, but in my never humble
opinion is worth it. 30 day demo to try it.
<http://www.forteinc.com>

[Doug White]

<snip>

>
> XNews works well,and it's free. it's also simple,ideal for me!
>
> ### that's what I always use for multipart binaries, but I can't get
> along with the UI for posting on text only groups.
>

Anothe vote for Xnews. It has a few minor quirks, but it's small & very
fast.

Doug White

[Wild_Bill]

A cousin of mine lost her first child to lead *paint* poisoning in the 1960s
(partly due to improper medical attention), but that infant would not have
been injesting circuit board or plumbing parts.

Anti-lead regulations are just one more BOHICA, by my estimation.

The paint manufacturers came to the rescue with latex paint, which contained
mercury in the early years.. maybe some of it still does.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............


"Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:PCTOr.125875$hg.1...@fx21.am4...

[Ian Field]

"Doug White" wrote in message
news:XnsA098C581E3D75...@69.16.186.7...

### Another one with basic reading problems - what part of "I can't get
along with the UI for posting on text only groups" do you not understand?!

[Ian Field]

This is with Mozilla Thunderbird - any better?

[Ian Field]

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
news:E_0Pr.436362$%Q3.9...@en-nntp-15.dc1.easynews.com...

###While I remain against RoHS-Pb-free, I agree with the ban on lead in
paint. The removal of lead from petrol was also a pretty good idea - annual
petrochem procurement of lead for TEL anti-detonation additive was in the
hundreds of thousands of tons! - This ended up floating about in the
atmosphere for us to breath along with all the other exhaust particulates.
It also precipitated with rain onto agriculture and contaminated livestock.

The Brussels (braindead) suits just didn't understand the information put in
front of them.

[Tom Del Rosso]

Doesn't it look better to you?

[Phil Hobbs]

Both quite readable, thanks. Just tweaking you a bit for the rather
self-dramatizing look of setting off your pearls of wisdom with three
splats. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

[Ian Field]

"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:jujkr5$3on$1...@dont-email.me...

Ian Field wrote:
> On 22/07/2012 22:07, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >
> > Hey, Ian, what's with the three asterisks? It makes you look like
> > an Allison and a half. (*)
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Phil Hobbs
> >
> > (*) Phil A. uses two asterisks.
> >
>
>
> This is with Mozilla Thunderbird - any better?

Doesn't it look better to you?

### Pity the UI is F**king horrible!

[William Sommerwerck]

> The paint manufacturers came to the rescue with latex

> paint, which contained mercury in the early years...
> Maybe some of it still does.

Mercury compounds, actually, which were present to suppress mildew and other
forms of attack by micro-organisms.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:19:15 +0100, Ian Field
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>This is with Mozilla Thunderbird - any better?

Yes, much better.

[Jim Yanik]

"Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in

news:zSbPr.67734$v24....@fx11.am4:

I don't understand HOW you "don't get along with the UI".
I don't like complex SW that takes a long time to learn,and Xnews is SO
easy to use. If -I- can do it.... :-)

[Tom Del Rosso]

Well you can get the source code and change it. I never looked at MS
Liveshit, but I doubt it has a good UI especially for usenet.

[Ian Field]

"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:jujrkn$f3h$1...@dont-email.me...

Ian Field wrote:
> "Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:jujkr5$3on$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> Ian Field wrote:
> >
> > This is with Mozilla Thunderbird - any better?
>
> Doesn't it look better to you?
>
> ### Pity the UI is F**king horrible!

Well you can get the source code and change it. I never looked at MS
Liveshit, but I doubt it has a good UI especially for usenet.

### WLM has a similar UI to OE - which is what I'm used to.

###I've also tried installing Xananews - the UI looks like it might be
tolerable but I get "pipeline out of sequence" error when I try to get
message body.

### Apparently "upgrading" to an older version of WLM can fix quoted text
indentation - but I've yet to find a copy.

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message

news:02rq08hql2v093009...@4ax.com...

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:19:15 +0100, Ian Field
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>This is with Mozilla Thunderbird - any better?

Yes, much better.

### Pity about the mangles UI though!

[Ian Field]

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message

news:XnsA09977ADAF9E4...@216.168.3.44...

### It might actually not seem so bad after the succession of mangled
trainwrecks I've seen since trying to find an alternative to WLM.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:06:53 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>### Pity about the mangles UI though!

What type or style of user interface do you prefer?
An example of a program that does it correctly will suffice.
My theory is that users tends to favor whatever they
learned first. Hopefully, you don't want something
that looks like a teletype machine output.

Did you at least look at Forte Agent?

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:7uir081ubi2o95fn9...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:06:53 +0100, "Ian Field"
> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>### Pity about the mangles UI though!
>
> What type or style of user interface do you prefer?
> An example of a program that does it correctly will suffice.
> My theory is that users tends to favor whatever they
> learned first. Hopefully, you don't want something
> that looks like a teletype machine output.
>
> Did you at least look at Forte Agent?

Found a standalone install of WLM2009.

There's top menus missing compared to the latest version, but last time I
posted with it the indenting was OK.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:50:08 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>Found a standalone install of WLM2009.

Before:
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308
After:
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416
Yeah, that looks like the right version.

>There's top menus missing compared to the latest version, but last time I
>posted with it the indenting was OK.

Indents and quotes are now fine and your messages are readable.
Congrats.

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message

news:veht081qur2hf0sn2...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:50:08 +0100, "Ian Field"
> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>Found a standalone install of WLM2009.
>
> Before:
>> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308
> After:
>> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416
> Yeah, that looks like the right version.
>
>>There's top menus missing compared to the latest version, but last time I
>>posted with it the indenting was OK.
>
> Indents and quotes are now fine and your messages are readable.
> Congrats.

Just in case it helps anyone else, this is where I found the standalone
WLM2009 installer:


http://www.geekonthepc.com/2010/10/10/get-the-old-windows-live-essentials-2009-back/

There is a WLM2009 online installer on Filehippo, and the install files are
still accessible on the M$ server (for now!).

Live Essentials 2011 must be completely uninstalled first or it will report
there's a newer version installed and refuse to proceed.

[josephkk]

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 21:44:15 +0100, "Ian Field"

Well at least you are trying. Personally i use agent and it is about the
best i have tried. And i have tried a lot, that was some time ago now.

?-)

[Ian Field]

"josephkk" <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:72ou08p6cpr0tb2pd...@4ax.com...

Found a standalone installer for Live Essentials 2009 in which live mail
indents correctly.

Here's the link in case it helps anyone else:

http://www.geekonthepc.com/2010/10/10/get-the-old-windows-live-essentials-2009-back/

[josephkk]

Not sure about your idea of UI usability but thunderbird sure beats the
pants off of the google web interfarce (not difficult to do).

?-)

[josephkk]

Plus you will be doomed to fighting the updater forever. Get a real news
reader. It is a different interface, M$ f***d that up.

?-)

[josephkk]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:10:31 +0100, "Ian Field"

Megasnot didn't invent usenet, they think they have a vested interest in
destroying it. A proper news reader does have a different kind of
interface, it must as the demesnes predates M$.

?-)

[N_Cook]

Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:71oOr.22891$lt3....@newsfe18.iad...
> N_Cook wrote:
>
> > Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in
message
> > news:y81Or.10676$jA7...@newsfe15.iad...
> >
> >>Ian Field wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>"Jamie" wrote in message news:y%HNr.15630$Kb4....@newsfe20.iad...
> >>>
> >>>Chas wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in
> >>>>message news:7gnNr.4237$jA7....@newsfe15.iad...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>For the past couple of hours I've been trying to get the solder out
> >>>>>>of a hole. It's a mobo cap, and the other hole sucked right out.
> >>>>>>It's like an obstruction. The solder melts with difficulty, but
> >>>>>>even then I can't get a dental pick as deep as in the other hole.
> >>>>>>The cap pulled out easily on both leads.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>If you have some indium base solder or old leaded solder, reflow it
> >>>>>with that, then suck it out..
> >>>>> Also, I've used my hot air wand to clear the holes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Jamie
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Carefully drill the solder out with a PCB drill slightly smaller than
> >>>>the hole.
> >>>
> >>>you must be careful to not remove the vias conductor when doing so.
> >>>
> >>>Jamie
> >>>
> >>>***Easier said than done!
> >>
> >>I have a tip I made for my Hot air wand that has a hypodermic needle on
> >>it. I heat it up and hit the air switch and push it through the hole.
> >>
> >>Jamie..
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > What is that like with PbF ?. Hypos use stainless steel and I find
stainless
> > steel is a reasonable identifier of PbF as it determinedly sticks to
> > stainless steel, does the capilliary bore of the needle then totally
block
> > with solder?
> >
> >
> you have your air pump when when doing so. No, it does not stick to the
> needles I use. In fact, I can just shake it and the solder will fall off.
>
> Jamie
>

I thought the capilliary force might take the molten solder up the tube ,
even just a surface coating inside would mount up each time , until full
clog. So I take it that is not the case.

[Ian Field]

"josephkk" <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:t6f4189scjaigijev...@4ax.com...

Unless (and probably if) I want to pay for a "real" news reader - all the
one's I've found the UI was a mangled train wreck!!!!!

In WLM2009, the news UI is actually faulty - but compared to the 4 or 5
readers I tried, its just about tolerable.

Had I not found WLM2009 - I would have carried on using WLM2011 and just
ignored the howls of protest.

[Michael A. Terrell]

So does Netscape 4.8

[Michael A. Terrell]

josephkk wrote:
>
> Megasnot didn't invent usenet, they think they have a vested interest in
> destroying it. A proper news reader does have a different kind of
> interface, it must as the demesnes predates M$.

It's another case of coders writing for something they don't use.
They are all hat & no horse. ;-)