weather instrument barograph ink resource and pen modification?

[J-J]

Picked up a 1972 Taylor barograph. This is a weather instrument with an
electronic rotating drum. On the drum is taped a chart and, in
combination with a "pen" (of sorts), barometric pressure is recorded.
After a week, the charts are removed and replaced with a fresh one.

I picked this up surplus with the hopes of reselling, but I am having
trouble with two things: 1) sourcing a *cheap* slow drying ink, and 2)
possible pen woes.

I'm posting here because the rotating drum is, after all, electronic.
In other words, it does not use a wind up key, but electronic mechanism
and initial tests show that at least it appears to be rotating correctly
and on time.

However, just for testing, I cannot seem to find a low cost slow drying
ink. There is "barograph ink", but it is quite expensive for a tiny
amount. I know there must be alternative slow drying inks out there
with different names at less cost that might be suitable. Any
suggestions would be welcome here.

Another thing I want to work on is the pen. The original is a tiny,
triangular shaped stainless steel reservoir. A drop of ink is placed in
the reservoir and this lasts until empty. There are alternative "pens"
that are felt tipped, require no ink, and last up to two years... but
again expensive. I'm wondering if I might be able to modify or use a
standard felt pen from the store somehow in this application. Further
suggestions appreciated.

Thank you,
JJ

[tabb...@gmail.com]

The first question is what inky materials do you have on hand? If you can dissolve one in oil, paraffin, diesel or any mixture of those, great. Last time I did this I was using printer's ink plus paraffin. Inks applied in small enough amounts don't need to dry at all, the liquid part just soaks into the paper.

I doubt an ordinary felt tip would work. You could sleeve the tip in plastic to try it, but I'm not optimistic. Most likely it'll run into the paper, and the paper will tear.

Oh, I remember an ink experiment ... vegetable oil & powder toner. Soot is also usable but not nearly as convenient, as there is the issue of particle size.

Anyway, why not use a biro?


NT

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:04:11 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:

>Picked up a 1972 Taylor barograph.

<https://www.google.com/search?q=Taylor+barograph&tbm=isch>

>However, just for testing, I cannot seem to find a low cost slow drying
>ink. There is "barograph ink", but it is quite expensive for a tiny
>amount. I know there must be alternative slow drying inks out there
>with different names at less cost that might be suitable. Any
>suggestions would be welcome here.

Rubber stamp pad refill ink should work. It would not do to have the
stamp pad dry out prematurely.
<https://www.staples.com/stamp+pad+ink/directory_stamp%2520pad%2520ink>
Basically, you need an ink that will not dry out in less time needed
for the drum to rotate one full revolution. Graphing barometers are
available at varying rotation speeds. The most common is
1 rev = 1 week, but is also available in 1 day and 1 month per
revolution.

More:
<https://www.metcheck.co.uk/collections/barograph-pens-and-ink>
<http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/47798-chart-recorder-ink-options/>
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barograph-Thermograph-Recording-Ink-Slow-Dry-Dark-Blue-5oz-15ml-/123902459872>
<https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/barograph-instrument-recording-pen-276775650>
etc...

>Another thing I want to work on is the pen. The original is a tiny,
>triangular shaped stainless steel reservoir. A drop of ink is placed in
>the reservoir and this lasts until empty.

Forget about changing the type of pen. The arm and pen are part of a
carefully balanced mechanism. If you add or reduce weight on the arm,
you will need to rebalance the mechanism. A drop of ink in the pen is
about as light a pen as could be easily contrived. I would continue
to use it.

>There are alternative "pens"
>that are felt tipped, require no ink, and last up to two years... but
>again expensive. I'm wondering if I might be able to modify or use a
>standard felt pen from the store somehow in this application. Further
>suggestions appreciated.

Sorry. I haven't tried replacing the stock ink well and have no plans
on trying to do so.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 10:52:14 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>More:
><https://www.metcheck.co.uk/collections/barograph-pens-and-ink>
><http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/47798-chart-recorder-ink-options/>
><https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barograph-Thermograph-Recording-Ink-Slow-Dry-Dark-Blue-5oz-15ml-/123902459872>
><https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/barograph-instrument-recording-pen-276775650>
>etc...

More of the same:
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=recording+instrument+ink>
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=barograph+recording+ink+slow+dry>
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/ink-Universal-Bristols-Recorder-Ink-Waterbury-CT-Recording-Instrument-Ink/392645088431>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 14:50:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 10:52:14 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>More:
>><https://www.metcheck.co.uk/collections/barograph-pens-and-ink>
>><http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/47798-chart-recorder-ink-options/>
>><https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barograph-Thermograph-Recording-Ink-Slow-Dry-Dark-Blue-5oz-15ml-/123902459872>
>><https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/barograph-instrument-recording-pen-276775650>
>>etc...
>
>More of the same:
><https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=recording+instrument+ink>
><https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=barograph+recording+ink+slow+dry>
><https://www.ebay.com/itm/ink-Universal-Bristols-Recorder-Ink-Waterbury-CT-Recording-Instrument-Ink/392645088431>

One more:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barograph-or-Instrument-recording-pen-for-use-with-ink/143313378165>
Note the comment on felt tip pens causing pen drag and slowing
response time.

To make a slow dry ink, I would guess that the ink should be high
viscosity so that it doesn't drip or run. It should also be high
surface tension to slow evaporation. The high surface tension is easy
enough by adding a few drops of a wetting agent such as Kodak Photo
Flo 200:
<https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html>
I don't know how to increase viscosity. Maybe add some more pigment
or solids.

[Dave Platt]

In article <c7ru2ftiva01tpjsc...@4ax.com>,

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

>To make a slow dry ink, I would guess that the ink should be high
>viscosity so that it doesn't drip or run. It should also be high
>surface tension to slow evaporation. The high surface tension is easy
>enough by adding a few drops of a wetting agent such as Kodak Photo
>Flo 200:
><https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html>

As I recall (and as that page states), Photo Flo is a surfactant,
which _reduces_ the surface tension of the water. This makes it
easier for the water to "wet" the surfaces to which it's applied. The
water spreads out more quickly and (as the page says) "promote[s]
faster, more uniform drying."

Probably not what you want, if you want ink to stay liquid.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Oops. Surfactants and wetting agents are used to reduce evaporation
is correct. However, mangled everything else. To reduce evaporation,
surface tension should be lowered, not raised. Surfactants and
wetting agents lower surface tension. Adding Photo Flo to the ink
will still reduce evaporation, but not in the manner that I originally
described.

Study of Surface Tension, Natural Evaporation, and Subcooled
Boiling Evaporation of Aqueous Surfactant Solutions
<https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1304&context=edt>

Of course, nothing is simple:

Surface Tension and Evaporation
<https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/61813/surface-tension-and-evaporation>

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:04:11 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:

>However, just for testing, I cannot seem to find a low cost slow drying
>ink. There is "barograph ink", but it is quite expensive for a tiny
>amount. I know there must be alternative slow drying inks out there
>with different names at less cost that might be suitable. Any
>suggestions would be welcome here.

I used a barograph when I was at school 60 years ago. The ink was
water based and fed to a metal stylus through a flexible plastic tube.
The tube occasionally got blocked. I just blew down the tube to clear
it out. It made a blob on the chart. The ink didn't dry. It just
soaked into the paper.

Steve

--
http://www.npsnn.com

[J-J]

On 1/27/20 1:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:04:11 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:
>
>> Picked up a 1972 Taylor barograph.
>
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=Taylor+barograph&tbm=isch>
>
>> However, just for testing, I cannot seem to find a low cost slow drying
>> ink. There is "barograph ink", but it is quite expensive for a tiny
>> amount. I know there must be alternative slow drying inks out there
>> with different names at less cost that might be suitable. Any
>> suggestions would be welcome here.
>
> Rubber stamp pad refill ink should work. It would not do to have the
> stamp pad dry out prematurely.
> <https://www.staples.com/stamp+pad+ink/directory_stamp%2520pad%2520ink>

Sorry to say that this ink isn't working. I filled the little
triangular reservoir to the brim and even after a full night, although
the drum and chart have rotated, nothing on the paper.

> Basically, you need an ink that will not dry out in less time needed
> for the drum to rotate one full revolution. Graphing barometers are
> available at varying rotation speeds. The most common is
> 1 rev = 1 week, but is also available in 1 day and 1 month per
> revolution.
>
> More:
> <https://www.metcheck.co.uk/collections/barograph-pens-and-ink>
> <http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/47798-chart-recorder-ink-options/>
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barograph-Thermograph-Recording-Ink-Slow-Dry-Dark-Blue-5oz-15ml-/123902459872>
> <https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/barograph-instrument-recording-pen-276775650>
> etc...

I appreciate these, but the problem is that they are expensive for just
tiny amounts. The hope was to try this unit out for a week to make sure
it works, then put it up for resale. I suppose if I have no choice,
I'll have to go this way though.

[Mike Coon]

In article <r0v34e$gab$1...@dont-email.me>, no...@none.non says...

> Sorry to say that this ink isn't working. I filled the little
> triangular reservoir to the brim and even after a full night, although
> the drum and chart have rotated, nothing on the paper.
>

I think you might have to wet the tip to get the flow started. Assuming
you can swing the pen away from the drum, just touch the tip with a
cotton bud or similar wetted with a drop of ink and swing it back
immediately. Assuming it is all clean...

Mike.

[J-J]

Interesting, I'll try that today and report back. Thanks.

>
> Mike.
>

[J-J]

Well, the good news is that the ink wasn't dry. I moistened the end of
a cotton swab, then touched it to the end of the reservoir and ink
immediately started flowing. Moved the reservoir tip back against the
drum. Now just waiting on time.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 12:18:05 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:

>On 1/27/20 1:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:04:11 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:
>>
>>> Picked up a 1972 Taylor barograph.
>>
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=Taylor+barograph&tbm=isch>
>>
>>> However, just for testing, I cannot seem to find a low cost slow drying
>>> ink. There is "barograph ink", but it is quite expensive for a tiny
>>> amount. I know there must be alternative slow drying inks out there
>>> with different names at less cost that might be suitable. Any
>>> suggestions would be welcome here.
>>
>> Rubber stamp pad refill ink should work. It would not do to have the
>> stamp pad dry out prematurely.
>> <https://www.staples.com/stamp+pad+ink/directory_stamp%2520pad%2520ink>

>Sorry to say that this ink isn't working. I filled the little
>triangular reservoir to the brim and even after a full night, although
>the drum and chart have rotated, nothing on the paper.

Does the instrument work with genuine barograph recording ink?

What are you using for paper? The real barograph paper is rather
absorbent. My closest approximation to a substitute was 20 lb inkjet
paper. The common universal variety, that does both inkjet and laser
printing is clay coated and will not absorb the ink. Inkjet paper
mostly worked, but my results were not very good.

I did some Googling and skimmed some old weather station manuals and
books to see if there were any clues as to how to make my own ink. I
did find some people online who have done it, but all of them are
selling the ink and probably will not divulge their formulation. I
haven't had time to search the patents pages. I suspect you might
find something there. I can help, but I won't have time for a week or
three.

>> Basically, you need an ink that will not dry out in less time needed
>> for the drum to rotate one full revolution. Graphing barometers are
>> available at varying rotation speeds. The most common is
>> 1 rev = 1 week, but is also available in 1 day and 1 month per
>> revolution.
>>
>> More:
>> <https://www.metcheck.co.uk/collections/barograph-pens-and-ink>
>> <http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/47798-chart-recorder-ink-options/>
>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barograph-Thermograph-Recording-Ink-Slow-Dry-Dark-Blue-5oz-15ml-/123902459872>
>> <https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/barograph-instrument-recording-pen-276775650>
>> etc...

>I appreciate these, but the problem is that they are expensive for just
>tiny amounts. The hope was to try this unit out for a week to make sure
>it works, then put it up for resale. I suppose if I have no choice,
>I'll have to go this way though.

You haven't provided a number which you consider expensive. $8 for a
10ml bottle of ink from Metcheck (plus shipping) is not a huge
investment. I think you'll find that the 10 ml bottle will last
several years. The recorder takes about 1 drop of ink from an eye
dropper to fill. That's about 20 drops per ml or 200 drops per
bottle. If your recorder runs for a week, and one drop lasts for a
conservative 2 weeks (based on my experience), that's:
2 * 200 / 52 = 7.8 years of operation
or about $1/year in ink.

[J-J]

On 1/30/20 12:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 12:18:05 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:
>
>> On 1/27/20 1:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:04:11 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Picked up a 1972 Taylor barograph.
>>>
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=Taylor+barograph&tbm=isch>
>>>
>>>> However, just for testing, I cannot seem to find a low cost slow drying
>>>> ink. There is "barograph ink", but it is quite expensive for a tiny
>>>> amount. I know there must be alternative slow drying inks out there
>>>> with different names at less cost that might be suitable. Any
>>>> suggestions would be welcome here.
>>>
>>> Rubber stamp pad refill ink should work. It would not do to have the
>>> stamp pad dry out prematurely.
>>> <https://www.staples.com/stamp+pad+ink/directory_stamp%2520pad%2520ink>
>
>> Sorry to say that this ink isn't working. I filled the little
>> triangular reservoir to the brim and even after a full night, although
>> the drum and chart have rotated, nothing on the paper.
>
> Does the instrument work with genuine barograph recording ink?

I have no idea. I picked it up at a local estate sale, so wasn't sure
it even worked. However, both the timing and barometric pressure are
correct, so the biggest hurdles out of the way. There was a red ink
track on the barographic chart that was taped on it, but that's all I
knew about the ink and not whether or not it worked. I did find out
that whoever had it was using the wrong chart with the wrong ranges,
however.

>
> What are you using for paper? The real barograph paper is rather
> absorbent. My closest approximation to a substitute was 20 lb inkjet
> paper. The common universal variety, that does both inkjet and laser
> printing is clay coated and will not absorb the ink. Inkjet paper
> mostly worked, but my results were not very good.

A gentleman told me that he uses 11x14 glossy photo paper for his
continuously, prints his own charts, and gets excellent results. I
don't have any charts other than the one that was already on the unit
that had the red trace. If nothing else, I could continue using that
for now.

>
> I did some Googling and skimmed some old weather station manuals and
> books to see if there were any clues as to how to make my own ink. I
> did find some people online who have done it, but all of them are
> selling the ink and probably will not divulge their formulation. I
> haven't had time to search the patents pages. I suspect you might
> find something there. I can help, but I won't have time for a week or
> three.

Well, I won't try selling the unit until I have verified that I can get
a couple week's worth of correct traces first, so it will just sit as I
try different things. The way I have verified it working so far is
taking a series of camera shots, one every 30 minutes, then verifying
the pressure and time each day after image review. In that way, so far,
so good.

[Michael Terrell]

Stamp pad ink has clay in it to help keep the face of the stamps fairly flat as they wear down.

I would look for ink made for reinking printer ribbons. It has no abrasives that thicken it, and it dries slowly. It was used on dot matrix & daisywheel printers along with typewriters. I used to reink black ribbons but that was 25 years ago. that ink is oil based, unlike the ink for modern printers with alcohol or other thinning agents.

[Lucifer]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:04:11 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:

>Picked up a 1972 Taylor barograph. This is a weather instrument with an
>electronic rotating drum. On the drum is taped a chart and, in
>combination with a "pen" (of sorts), barometric pressure is recorded.
>After a week, the charts are removed and replaced with a fresh one.

I have one that records barometric pressure, temperature, and
humidity, and the drum is clockwork.

[J-J]

Ok, an update. Unfortunately, here's what happened after trying an oil
based ink from Staples. It almost seems like there was a "hemorrhage"
of sorts, then almost nothing (in fact, I didn't even realize there was
any trace at all until uploading the photo... I did turn the drum a day
ahead to get past the huge ink spot):

https://imgur.com/a/GcYaO8c

So, I guess it boils down to the incorrect ink, incorrect paper, or
both. For the chart, I printed my own on standard 8.5x14 printer/
typing paper. I did back the paper with two pieces of packing tape just
in case a spot like the one shown appeared so at least it wouldn't stain
the drum.

I'm just not going to be able to get away with testing this thing for
under $10, am I?

[tabb...@gmail.com]

If you're willing to experiment. I gave you a clay-free rubber stamp ink formula that costs nothing to make. I've not tried it in your app.


NT

[J-J]

Yes, I guess you did. Unfortunately, I don't think I have any of that
stuff on hand. All I might be able to obtain is mineral oil later
today. Maybe I could try mixing a drop of that with the ink?

Well, the good news is that a VERY thin trace was made over a one day
period using nothing other than the Staples oil based ink and my packing
taped backed printer paper. Enough of a trace with falling barometric
pressure that I could see that the barograph at least works. I would
still like to get week's trace out of it though. I suspect the paper
I've devised isn't very absorbent, so any cheap modifications I could
try in a pinch would be welcome. Perhaps doubling (or tripling) up the
sheets next time around?

[J-J]

What's a biro?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:01:21 -0500, J-J <no...@none.non> wrote:

>Ok, an update. Unfortunately, here's what happened after trying an oil
>based ink from Staples. It almost seems like there was a "hemorrhage"
>of sorts, then almost nothing (in fact, I didn't even realize there was
>any trace at all until uploading the photo... I did turn the drum a day
>ahead to get past the huge ink spot):
>
>https://imgur.com/a/GcYaO8c

<https://www.metcheck.co.uk/blogs/barographs/156686919-how-to-get-a-good-barogram>
All the items mentioned apply.

I was using and recommending ink absorbent paper. According to the
above URL, that's wrong. It did work for me, but wasn't very good
looking. However, it didn't create a huge ink blob. At this point, I
don't know exactly what is wrong. It could be wrong ink, wrong type
of paper, bad nib spacing in the pen, bent nibs, etc. Dunno. I don't
have a barograph handy for testing.