OT: Sewing machine repair question where

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Where could I ask for info on a misbehaving sewing machine? The sewing newsgroups are near dead and lacking this sort of info, and it's not an electronic problem

cheers
NT

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:52:34 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>Where could I ask for info on a misbehaving sewing machine?
>The sewing newsgroups are near dead and lacking this sort

>of info, and it's not an electronic problem.

The various sewing machine manuals often have timing adjustment
instructions which include troubleshooting. A maker and model number
would be helpful:

Sewing machine repair:
<http://www.sewusa.com/Sewing_Machine_Repair.htm>

Sears:
<http://www.searspartsdirect.com/sewing-machine-repair.html>

Brother:
<http://www.brothersewing.co.uk/en_GB/fixing-common-sewing-machine-problems>

Various video:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sewing+machine+repair>

If you're fixing an industrial sewing machine, the procedures and
tolerances are quite different. Whatever you do, get the manual on
the machine, even if you have to beat up on the manufactory. I ended
up with a Brother machine which was not on their support web pile. An
email got me a scanned manual.
<http://support.brother.com/g/b/productseries.aspx?c=us&lang=en&content=ml&pcatid=36>

Drivel: I fished this machine out of a dumpster:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Kenmore-sewing-machine.jpg>
This one came from a flea market for about $15:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/PCB-Layout/slides/White-1510-sewing-machine.html>
Both are my "practice" machines.

So, what are you working on and what is it doing wrong?

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 05:20:03 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I've got manuals for both, but they don't touch repairs at all. They're both domestic machines.

Bernina 121, 1944-54 and overly basic. Top tensioner refused to grip the thread at all. I got it to do so by removing a washer as a temporary measure - that's not how it should be, but there we go. Now when the thread lifting arm goes up it doesn't quite pull the thread up far enough to get it fully out of the bobbin area, and snarlup quickly follows. It's not a valuable machine, I won't be getting parts for it but it ought to be something fairly straightforward. I've set the bobbin & top tensions. I suspect the top tension release mechanism is stuck. I'll take another look but didn't say any ready access to that area of internals.

Bernina 530-2 circa 1960. A nice high quality machine with a range of decorative stitches & lots of accessories. 2 problems. Applying power & operating the control results in current flow but no movement. The machine turns but is rather stiff - I suspect the motor's just stalled. I'll oil the whole thing & see if that sorts it. The other problem is the decorative stitch selector won't move at all. Another lever also wouldn't move but a bit of persistence & persuasion got it to. I suspect all round oiling may be the solution, will know later.

I've gotten tired of googling only to find idiot advice like 'have you put the thread in the right end,' 'don't forget to set the bobbin tension' and 'ooh you need to take it to a dealer' type stuff.


NT

[Mike Coon]

In article <ce3e7991-3607-46aa...@googlegroups.com>,
tabb...@gmail.com says...

>
> Bernina 530-2 circa 1960. A nice high quality machine with a range of decorative stitches & lots of accessories. 2 problems. Applying power & operating the control results in current flow but no movement. The machine turns but is rather stiff - I suspect the motor's just stalled. I'll oil the whole thing & see if that sorts it. The other problem is the decorative stitch selector won't move at all. Another lever also wouldn't move but a bit of persistence & persuasion
got it to. I suspect all round oiling may be the solution, will know later.
>
> I've gotten tired of googling only to find idiot advice like 'have you put the thread in the right end,' 'don't forget to set the bobbin tension' and 'ooh you need to take it to a dealer' type stuff.
>
>
> NT

I inherited my mother's old machine that had not been used for years.
The zig-zag adjustment had stuck and I could not get at the bearing to
free it up. Success with sticking the whole machine in front of a
domestic fan heater until it was nicely warmed up!

Mike.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 10:27:25 UTC+1, Mike Coon wrote:
> In article <ce3e7991-3607-46aa...@googlegroups.com>,
> tabbypurr says...

I like that. Once I've got them oiled I can try the oven at 40C - I think it goes that low. Cheers. I do now suspect both of them are suffering the same seizure problem, just of different bits of the mechanism. I know almost nothing of their history post-purchase, but the 530-2 with the stuck selector does have a repair tag from 1977 saying stuck stitch selector.


NT

[pf...@aol.com]

Most common (as in many made) machines have service manuals on-line. But there are two (2) keys to sewing machines that 99-44/100% of their owners (especially guys) do not understand:

a) Lubrication: Sewing machines used to be sold with a can of oil for a reason. To prevent wear - especially on critical cams and cam-followers - they must be checked and lubricated about every 30-40 hours of use *at least*. Oils are better today and if one uses a high-tack PTFE-impregnated oil, that time may be extended to perhaps 60 hours. OR, every 60 days if not used often, or before each use if stored for long periods. WALK the machine through its movements by hand first before applying power.

b) Cleaning: Lots of flakes and fluff is generated by sewing - so a can of dust-off is your best friend - again, something not available back in the day.

If you have worn down a cam or cam-follower, short of replacement you will have problems. On thread-tensioners, there is often (or was at one point) a felt washer to maintain a gentle pressure on the thread that has some give to it. Look to see if that washer is missing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Bernina+121+exploded+diagram&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjksMLT7ZLVAhXBJiYKHULLABEQsAQIJw&biw=1366&bih=662

Is a source for an exploded diagram for your earlier machine. Do a search on the second - model number followed by "Exploded Diagram", and you will get the next one as well.

I do the maintenance for my wife's machine. It 'purrs like a kitten', despite its advanced age.

Best of luck with it!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[tabb...@gmail.com]

I've had the chance to clean & oil them. The 530-2 now sews, but 3 adjusters are still jammed, and the whole mechanism is much stiffer than it ought to be, though not as bad as it was.

The 121 I'll try a new needle with. I didn't think of that. A look at the mechanism reveals there is no upper thread tension release mechanism, it's just fixed tension. So I'm a bit puzzled why a washer needed removing to get that to work, or why the washer was there in the first place. I am only a bit wiser there.

I didn't think of exploding them. I googled but no such diagrams for either machine found.

I've been contemplating putting ammonia into the seized bits to cut through the oxidised/polymerised oil, not sure if that would be a good idea or not. The seized mechanicals are all steel.


NT

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:01:37 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>Bernina 121, 1944-54 and overly basic. Top tensioner refused to
>grip the thread at all. I got it to do so by removing a washer
>as a temporary measure - that's not how it should be, but there
>we go. Now when the thread lifting arm goes up it doesn't quite
>pull the thread up far enough to get it fully out of the bobbin
>area, and snarlup quickly follows. It's not a valuable machine,
>I won't be getting parts for it but it ought to be something
>fairly straightforward. I've set the bobbin & top tensions. I
>suspect the top tension release mechanism is stuck. I'll take
>another look but didn't say any ready access to that area of internals.

The Bernina 121 similar to the 125, which adds zig-zag but is the same
as far as thread tensioning. It was also sold as a Husqvarna Zig-Zag.
This should be useful:
<https://www.occaphot-ch.com/bernina-oldie-modelle/bernina-modelle-kl-125-121-1950er/>

I don't know exactly what's wrong, but you have the right idea. Take
it apart, clean everything, reassemble, lubricate, and adjust the
tension. I don't see how you can successfully adjust the top thread
tension, and then claim that it doesn't grip the thread at all. If
you've removed washers, you probably took it apart and cleaned it, so
I'll assume the center shaft was clean. I normally do not oil the
tension disks, so if they've been oiled, that might be the problem.

If the machine has been infrequently used, is dirty or dusty, or was
lubricated with 3-in-1 oil, you might consider cleaning with solvent
and some new oil.

Incidentally, that may not be a "valuable" machine, but it might be
quite useful. Such all-metal machines are prized for sewing leather
and heavy canvas.

>Bernina 530-2 circa 1960. A nice high quality machine with a range
>of decorative stitches & lots of accessories. 2 problems. Applying
>power & operating the control results in current flow but no movement.
>The machine turns but is rather stiff - I suspect the motor's just
>stalled. I'll oil the whole thing & see if that sorts it. The other
>problem is the decorative stitch selector won't move at all.
>Another lever also wouldn't move but a bit of persistence &
>persuasion got it to. I suspect all round oiling may be the solution,
>will know later.

The stuck stitch selector knob is an important clue that the machine
needs cleaning and lubrication. Take the belt off and try to turn it
by hand, but don't force it. If it's stiff, then you get to clean out
the gum with some solvent and lubricate from scratch. If it moves
freely, look at the motor. If you see blobs of oily lint, sticky goo,
or rust on the shafts around the moving parts, there's the problem.

Too much oil is just as bad as not enough. Same with using the wrong
type of oil. You want oil that doesn't evaporate and maintains a
fairly constant viscosity over temperature.
<http://www.makeit-loveit.com/2012/09/how-to-cleanoil-your-sewing-machine.html>
I would go easy on "oil the whole thing" and try to isolate the cause
of the drag. Adding more oil to a dirty or dusty machine just creates
more sticky goo.

>I've gotten tired of googling only to find idiot advice like 'have
>you put the thread in the right end,' 'don't forget to set the
>bobbin tension' and 'ooh you need to take it to a dealer' type stuff.

If you specific advice for your specific problem, it's really helpful
if you would supply specifics. A photo of the guts is very useful as
many problems can be visually seen. Some history of the machine is
always helpful.

I'll spare you the rest of the lecture.
I'm out of time. Good luck.

[et...@whidbey.com]

Years and years ago I used to maintain industrial sewing machines. By
far lubrication problems were the major cause of machine malfunctions.
Dried up lube, the wrong lube, lube that had started to polymerize,
contaminated lube, etc. Lube problems can cause adjustments to move
because of increased friction. After lube problems was debris. Dust
from thread and the fabrics being sewn gets everywhere and clogs stuff
up. So give the machines a good cleaning and lubing first and then see
if more work needs to be done.
Eric

[John Robertson]

Hi Jeff,

Hate to ask (I can see an oil thread looming (sorry)) but what do you
recommend for oil? I figure a non-detergent 20w oil is good for most
small mechanical machines lube points, and have tried synthetic oils on
tiny motors (CD spin motors) with good success. I have to assume there
is no ideal oil though.

Have you a preferred link for an online page that gives a good
description of oils and what jobs they are best for?

WD-40 is, of course, of little use when something is seized and there
are far better and cheaper solutions than WD for that problem. The best
appearing to be old style ATF fluid and acetone.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/

http://www.greentractortalk.com/forums/off-topic/5498-using-50-50-mixture-atf-acetone-stuck-engines-has-worked-some.html


Thanks,
John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 17:49:08 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Thanks - I'm convinced that's the entire problem with the 530-2. It probably hasn't been lubed in decades. What do you reckon I should use to remove hardened oil from within parts? The only chemicals I'm thinking that could attack this effectively are ammonia & bleach, but am hesitant to use those without knowing if it's ok to.


NT

[pf...@aol.com]

GRUMP!!!!

OK, this is 2017. What this means is that there are lubricants and solvents out there that are beyond the wildest dreams of those machine designers.

First, invest in some KROIL - this to saturate everything in preparation for a massive cleaning. Kroil will loosen skunge and penetrate bearings so that you do not gall anything by moving it by force. Kroil is meant as a penetrating oil, NOT as a lubricant, restorative nor anything else than what it is designed to do.

Then, when clean and re-assembled:

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-evpnwp29/products/95/images/329/SuperLube_Oil__21128.1439340805.500.500.jpg?c=2

Where oil is required. Cams & cam-followers and such.

http://www.backflowpreventer.com/media/ecom/prodlg/SuperLube.jpg

Where grease is required - gears, open shaft bearings (on the shaft and in the bearing prior to reassembly) and such.

Ancient oil & grease formula polymerized with heat and pressure. Modern synthetics will not. That puts you way ahead of the game moving forward. And the specific materials cited have a very high film strength and do not attract dust as much as non-synthetics.

Sewing needles have a 'sense', Typically the haft is D shaped. Make sure that the flat side is in the correct orientation, or you will break/bend it every time.

Remember, you are undoing years and years of neglect. If you work on the theory that I use - every machine needs a certain amount of maintenance over its life. And the real time required increases in geometric but inversely related to the timeliness of that maintenance. So, you have a number of hours ahead of you before everything will be 'right'.

I expect that the persnickety level of maintenance required is why new machines get sold despite the vast number of vintage ones out there.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 10:28:21 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
wrote:

>Hi Jeff,

Not high enough.

>Hate to ask (I can see an oil thread looming (sorry)) but what do you
>recommend for oil? I figure a non-detergent 20w oil is good for most
>small mechanical machines lube points, and have tried synthetic oils on
>tiny motors (CD spin motors) with good success. I have to assume there
>is no ideal oil though.

First, a little background and drivel. My father owned a women's wear
(mostly lingerie) factory in Smog Angeles. I got plenty of experience
building, fixing, and adjusting industrial sewing machines and making
attachments. Then, I discovered electronics and largely abandoned
sewing machinery. Lately, I've become rather bored with electronics,
computing, and some of my other activities, and though it might be
interesting to do sewing machine repairs on the side. Big mistake,
but I won't bore you with the problems I created. Meanwhile, I've
collected a small collection of older machines, most of which are
being slowly repaired and sold. Not the best credentials but perhaps
good enough for the basics.

Oil for sewing machines, microscopes, guns, and clocks all have two
requirements that must be met. The oil should not evaporate and
should remain at a constant viscosity over the working temperature
range. That's because these devices rely on residual friction of the
lubricant to control the movement of mating parts. Changes in this
friction will result in undesirable changes in timing and adjustment.

Big industrial sewing machines solve the gum and evaporation problems
by using an oil sump and splash lubrication. It won't turn to gum
because additional oil just washes away the gum. It can evaporate,
but with so much oil in the sump, it's unlikely to ever be run without
oil. Too bad it makes such a big mess. I've also never seen an oil
sump on a home type sewing machine.

Another way is to do it like an automobile engine, and pump oil down
an oil gallery into mating surfaces via holes in the bushings. That
works, but is too complicated, expensive, and messy for a home
machine.

So, what's left? Felt oil pads is what most home machine use. That
works, but requires much better oil than the previous 2 methods of
lubrication. That is why you don't use engine oil, WD40, penetrating
oil, or home brew in a sewing machine. None of these oils are
constant viscosity or even close to the viscosity specified by the
sewing machine design. Even clock oil is marginal, because clocks are
not designed to handle the rotational speeds and reciprocating
pounding found in sewing machines.

So, what works? Ummm... sewing machine oil perhaps? They're largely
all the same stuff different in viscosity for different manufacturers.
<https://www.mobil.com/en/industrial/lubricants/product-series/mobil-velocite-sm-series>
Ok, so you're not going to buy it by the gallon, but the specs are the
same as what you get with retail overpriced sewing machine oil.

>Have you a preferred link for an online page that gives a good
>description of oils and what jobs they are best for?

No, but I'll see if I can find something. I doubt if anyone can get
all the various types of lubricants on a single web page. In general,
the lube selection pages of the major oil companies do better than the
specialty oil formulation pages. For example start here:
<https://www.mobil.com/en/industrial>
I'll see if I can find some more links later.

>WD-40 is, of course, of little use when something is seized and there
>are far better and cheaper solutions than WD for that problem. The best
>appearing to be old style ATF fluid and acetone.
>http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/
>http://www.greentractortalk.com/forums/off-topic/5498-using-50-50-mixture-atf-acetone-stuck-engines-has-worked-some.html

We had this discussion in some newsgroup recently. The consensus
among those that tried acetone and ATF as a penetrating oil varied
radically from it works great, to it sucks. Several people discovered
that there are different types of ATF, one of which wouldn't even mix
properly with acetone. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Please note that penetrating oil is not a lubricant.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 17:35:26 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:01:37 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

> >Bernina 121, 1944-54 and overly basic. Top tensioner refused to
> >grip the thread at all. I got it to do so by removing a washer
> >as a temporary measure - that's not how it should be, but there
> >we go. Now when the thread lifting arm goes up it doesn't quite
> >pull the thread up far enough to get it fully out of the bobbin
> >area, and snarlup quickly follows. It's not a valuable machine,
> >I won't be getting parts for it but it ought to be something
> >fairly straightforward. I've set the bobbin & top tensions. I
> >suspect the top tension release mechanism is stuck. I'll take
> >another look but didn't say any ready access to that area of internals.
>
> The Bernina 121 similar to the 125, which adds zig-zag but is the same
> as far as thread tensioning. It was also sold as a Husqvarna Zig-Zag.

The 125 is worth something, the 121 I doubt it. I don't plan to keep it, I've got far more capable machines. If I can get it going without hassle it'll bring in double what I paid for the pair & be useful to someone. It's the 530-2 I'm willing to spend more time on.

> This should be useful:
> <https://www.occaphot-ch.com/bernina-oldie-modelle/bernina-modelle-kl-125-121-1950er/>

interesting, but that's all

> I don't know exactly what's wrong, but you have the right idea. Take
> it apart, clean everything, reassemble, lubricate, and adjust the
> tension. I don't see how you can successfully adjust the top thread
> tension, and then claim that it doesn't grip the thread at all. If
> you've removed washers, you probably took it apart and cleaned it, so
> I'll assume the center shaft was clean. I normally do not oil the
> tension disks, so if they've been oiled, that might be the problem.

the lack of thread tension puzzled me. It works just fine with one washer removed, so it's a low priority issue.

> If the machine has been infrequently used, is dirty or dusty, or was
> lubricated with 3-in-1 oil, you might consider cleaning with solvent
> and some new oil.

Yes... question is which solvent. White spirit? Paraffin/kerosene? I've got those. Also have ammonia & bleach if they'd attack the crud without causing damage.

> Incidentally, that may not be a "valuable" machine, but it might be
> quite useful. Such all-metal machines are prized for sewing leather
> and heavy canvas.

Ten a penny I think.

I've not psoted pics because I don't believe they'd be in any way helpful. The mechanism is quite dense. Looking at the thing IRL it's hard enough to see what's going on with moving one's vision at all sorts of angles, I can't see a photo being comprehensible. I'll see what I can get tomorrow but I doubt it'll give much away.

History is unknown, I got them at a clearance for peanuts. The lubrication disaster tells me they've either not been used in a long time, or had no care taken of them at all.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

I see you like to spend :) I use baby oil on sewing machines, it's a light petroleum derived clear oil with a trace of perfume. Whether babies were harmed in it's making remains to be seen.

These machines don't have any felt pads, oil just hangs around in the moving parts by surface tension. They're certainly not high speed mechanisms, they're overengineered to be just about bombproof.

The 530-2 runs stiffly but it runs & sews now. But frequently the mechanism stiffens a good bit & motor speed drops right down. Hopefully paraffin will help. There are also still key parts that remain stuck. 15 minutes in the oven at 50C freed up 3 controls, but 2 remain well stuck so far. Paraffin is next.


NT

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:48:05 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 17:35:26 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> This should be useful:
>> <https://www.occaphot-ch.com/bernina-oldie-modelle/bernina-modelle-kl-125-121-1950er/>

>interesting, but that's all

You're hard to please.

>the lack of thread tension puzzled me. It works just fine with
>one washer removed, so it's a low priority issue.

It may have been disassembled and then put back together incorrectly.

>Yes... question is which solvent. White spirit? Paraffin/kerosene?
>I've got those. Also have ammonia & bleach if they'd attack the
>crud without causing damage.

Oh, that's easy. Anything that will dissolve the original sewing
machine oil. Even if it's dried out or turned to goo, it's still the
same oil, which can be dissolved by anything from paint thinner to
kerosene. I wouldn't go any higher up the chlorinated hydrocarbon
tree because those tend to dull or eat plastic parts. I tend to favor
kerosene (lamp oil) for loosening up machine parts. If I'm lazy, I
just dump some more sewing machine oil on the part, which will
dissolve the gum, but not the stuff that has hardened. As little
scraping with a piece of wood or plastic (not metal) will expedite
things.

What's the story behind using ammonia and bleach? I've never heard of
that concoction.

The reason I want a photo is because I've seen a few Frankenstein
monsters assembled from parts from different machines. I've also
spent an inordinate amount of time digging out information on what
turned out to be the wrong model number. Trust, but verify.

>History is unknown, I got them at a clearance for peanuts. The
>lubrication disaster tells me they've either not been used in a
>long time, or had no care taken of them at all.

Thanks for the details. Some of mine were left outside in the rain.
Rust everywhere. I think you have the right approach. Clean, lube,
adjust, and try again.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 07:21:53 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:48:05 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
> >On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 17:35:26 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> >> This should be useful:
> >> <https://www.occaphot-ch.com/bernina-oldie-modelle/bernina-modelle-kl-125-121-1950er/>
>
> >interesting, but that's all
>
> You're hard to please.

:) If there's anything online about actual repairs to Berninas I've not found it.

> >the lack of thread tension puzzled me. It works just fine with
> >one washer removed, so it's a low priority issue.
>
> It may have been disassembled and then put back together incorrectly.

Probably so. I'll recheck the central split threaded rod for blockage. I reckon I know how to sort it now.

> >Yes... question is which solvent. White spirit? Paraffin/kerosene?
> >I've got those. Also have ammonia & bleach if they'd attack the
> >crud without causing damage.
>
> Oh, that's easy. Anything that will dissolve the original sewing
> machine oil. Even if it's dried out or turned to goo, it's still the
> same oil, which can be dissolved by anything from paint thinner to
> kerosene. I wouldn't go any higher up the chlorinated hydrocarbon
> tree because those tend to dull or eat plastic parts. I tend to favor
> kerosene (lamp oil) for loosening up machine parts. If I'm lazy, I
> just dump some more sewing machine oil on the part, which will
> dissolve the gum, but not the stuff that has hardened. As little
> scraping with a piece of wood or plastic (not metal) will expedite
> things.

Kerosene it is. Scraping is mostly not viable, taking the whole mechanism apart is not on the to do list, only 2 bits have scrape access.

> What's the story behind using ammonia and bleach? I've never heard of
> that concoction.

Either can tackle congealed oil. Ammonia is the more effective & antisocial. Don't mix them.

> The reason I want a photo is because I've seen a few Frankenstein
> monsters assembled from parts from different machines. I've also
> spent an inordinate amount of time digging out information on what
> turned out to be the wrong model number. Trust, but verify.
>
> >History is unknown, I got them at a clearance for peanuts. The
> >lubrication disaster tells me they've either not been used in a
> >long time, or had no care taken of them at all.
>
> Thanks for the details. Some of mine were left outside in the rain.
> Rust everywhere. I think you have the right approach. Clean, lube,
> adjust, and try again.

Yup. Will get some pics. Cheers.


NT

[et...@whidbey.com]

For jobs like yours I like to use kerosene. Actually, I use "Lamp
Oil". It's the stuff made for oil burning lamps and candles. I get the
unscented stuff. I like it better than kerosene mainly because it
doesn't smell bad. It doesn't dissolve hardened oil as fast as other
solvents but then it doesn't tend to harm things either. Sometimes all
you need is for the hardened oil to be flushed from the mechanism.
Then there is this soft goo that oozes from bearings and the like.
This goo can be removed by whatever is most convenient. After the lamp
oil has started to flush the old oil out just follow with new oil.
After you are sure the new oil has flushed out the lamp oil wipe up
any excess oil that has run out of the bearing surfaces.
Eric

[Dave Platt]

In article <isttmcdkrdk264ik2...@4ax.com>,

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

>What's the story behind using ammonia and bleach? I've never heard of
>that concoction.

Ammonia is alkaline enough to saponify oils, at least to some extent.
I doubt it would dissolve the gum as well as a light petroleum solvent
would, but one might use it as a final cleaner to remove all traces of
the old (dissolved) lubricant before re-lubricating.

I don't think that chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite) would be a
good choice. It also is alkaline and might saponify the oils but the
free chlorine could attack all sorts of things in the equipment,
including the service technician.

Ammonia and bleach as a "concoction" is one of those things that the
labels on both products warn you quite sternly NOT to do. When mixed,
these chemicals react to create chloramine gas (a mixture of NH2Cl and
NHCl2), which is a severe respiratory irritant.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199909093411115#t=article

Unless you're fond of recreational edema and emergency tracheostomy,
I'd avoid this "concoction" as if it were poison :-)

[pf...@aol.com]

All of the following done OUTDOORS:

1 cup of lye in 3 gallons of *cold* water will remove any kind of paint, grease, or applied coating from any otherwise inert metal or plastic. Even from the smallest nooks and crannies if left overnight. Do not do this, or choose the option below unless you have a safe method of disposal of the effluent. Much vintage paint and coatings, especially bright colors contained lead, chromium, cadmium and other pigments that are no fun in any concentration.

Glacial Ammonia - available as a diazo-print developer back in the day - will do the same.

Kerosene and other light hydrocarbons should also be used outdoors if used as solvents. Similarly, gasoline, Naptha, Coleman fuel and others of that nature. And certainly not indoors or near sources of ignition - even electric fans.

Acetone should be used in very small quantities as the vapor is heavier than air and quite volatile (explosive). Outdoors if in any sort of quantity.

Similarly, methanol (wood alcohol). Very explosive if the vapors are concentrated.

I keep a number of 1-ounce glass eyedropper bottles for various solvents and such, including my 20:1 naptha-oleic acid mix. And even then, I tend to be quite careful with them.

I am also a great believer in new-technology lubricants. Synthetics, engineered long-chain polymers and PTFE additives have made the options very nearly infinitely better than even 30 years ago. Nor are vast quantities needed for most of us. Running four clocks and any number of other clockwork/mechanical devices (and guns) and I am still on my first pints with most left over. So, at that level, cost is really not a factor.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Some of those solvents are certainly toxic and explosive, but kerosene? I'm perfectly happy to use that indoors.


NT

[pf...@aol.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 9:53:11 AM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> Some of those solvents are certainly toxic and explosive, but kerosene? I'm perfectly happy to use that indoors.

Kerosene has two not-so-nice properties that few understand:

a) When exposed in quantity - on a rag, or in a bowl - although it has relatively low volatility, it does not have ZERO volatility. And that volatility is highly dependent on temperature. Further, kerosene is not uniformly one fraction, but several. What happens is that if any surfaces near to the work area are cooler than the rest of the room, a thin film of the heavier fractions will build up.

b) And, that film will polymerize over time (faster with exposure to UV or ozone) into a varnish-like coating that will be very nearly impossible to remove without heroic efforts.

Acetone, Naptha, Methanol and other alcohols and similar volatile solvents consist of fractions that do not have a transition temperature anywhere near normal room temperature.

Better living through chemistry!

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 07:21:53 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Right the 121 now works perfectly. I reassembled the upper thread tensioner leaving out the tension release disc as I couldn't get it to work with it. I can only presume it was wrongly assembled or some part out of spec, and likely a bit not present that should be.


That leaves the [far better] 530-2, a 1960s all-mechanical machine with camwheel operated stitch patterns. Good progress - it now sews & keeps going at a good speed. Some jammed bits are unstuck, but some remain jammed.
https://ibb.co/kw9AS5
https://ibb.co/diHx75
https://ibb.co/gFh8Ek
https://ibb.co/kV6DfQ
https://ibb.co/eqi4n5
https://ibb.co/cvWDfQ
Still jammed are:

- the needle position knob. The mechanism has a sprung detent thing, and it is jammed absolutely rock solid. Soaking in oil, baking in oven & plenty of force has had no effect.

- the stitch length knob moves but still very stiffly.

- the biggest problem is the stitch pattern selector. Again it's rock solid jammed. Photos and video don't show the mechanism at all, it's buried under other bits and one has to bob about to spot bits of it and work out what it is. I hope to add paraffin/kerosene tonight and cross fingers.


NT

[pf...@aol.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 3:46:45 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

Much snippage.


> Still jammed:
>

Do you have access to Kroil? I used it recently (and successfully) to loosen a muffler-bearing (OK, an exhaust manifold bolt) on my wife's very vintage Volvo recently. It might be effective in your situation where the other stuff has no effect.

http://www.kanolabs.com/google/?gclid=CjwKCAjwqcHLBRAqEiwA-j4AyMZzSaKDxpEn_pSE2fN7OvcTUxZ_OCv1nMZr-YJ0O0YORY9t1JmSIhoCtIAQAvD_BwE

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:46:40 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>Right the 121 now works perfectly. I reassembled the upper
>thread tensioner leaving out the tension release disc as
>I couldn't get it to work with it. I can only presume it
>was wrongly assembled or some part out of spec, and likely
>a bit not present that should be.

Congrats. It's hard to argue with success, but save the extra washer
somewhere just in case you discover that it's needed. I'm still
looking for a 121 exploded view, which might have a detail of the
upper tension thing.

>That leaves the [far better] 530-2, a 1960s all-mechanical
>machine with camwheel operated stitch patterns. Good progress
> - it now sews & keeps going at a good speed. Some jammed
>bits are unstuck, but some remain jammed.
>https://ibb.co/kw9AS5
>https://ibb.co/diHx75
>https://ibb.co/gFh8Ek
>https://ibb.co/kV6DfQ
>https://ibb.co/eqi4n5
>https://ibb.co/cvWDfQ

Thanks for the photos. Looks fairly clean, but it's hard to tell from
photos. This might help with the cleaning ceremony:
<http://tumorfarmer.blogspot.com/2015/09/bernina-530-2-sewing-machine.html>
The author used alcohol and kerosene (separately). Also see the
reader comments from Becky which have more detail on the cleaning.

One change I would recommend is to NOT use cotton Q-tips in areas
where there's a risk of stuffing some cotton into a bushing or
bearing. It's very difficult to remove the cotton later. I have some
really sharp and fine pointed stainless tweezers that work fairly
well, but it's best to avoid that problem. Use the foam (lint free)
type of Q-tips instead.

Incidentally, the yellow colored crud in the photos is not dried oil.
It's a mix of rust, dried oil, and water. I didn't see any in your
photos, so at least you don't have a rust problem.

>Still jammed are:
>- the needle position knob. The mechanism has a sprung detent
>thing, and it is jammed absolutely rock solid. Soaking in oil,
>baking in oven & plenty of force has had no effect.

I'm fairly sure the thread is NOT left handed but it wouldn't hurt to
check (somehow). There's probably a spring behind the detent, which
is glued in place by gum. I'm not familiar with the mechanism, so I
can't suggest where to apply brute force. Try penetrating oil.

>- the stitch length knob moves but still very stiffly.

I'm not sure, but the arm usually has a roller or bearing at the end.
Make sure that the bearing is actually turning, and not sliding.

>- the biggest problem is the stitch pattern selector. Again it's
>rock solid jammed. Photos and video don't show the mechanism at
>all, it's buried under other bits and one has to bob about to
>spot bits of it and work out what it is. I hope to add
>paraffin/kerosene tonight and cross fingers.

No clue there. Again, look for a roller, bearing, or follower that is
NOT turning. See if paraffin, kerosene, paint thinner, Kroil,
naphtha, or whatever helps. If it does, add more of the same.

Not much in the way of specific help, but better than nothing.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 20 July 2017 23:22:48 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:46:40 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

> >Right the 121 now works perfectly. I reassembled the upper
> >thread tensioner leaving out the tension release disc as
> >I couldn't get it to work with it. I can only presume it
> >was wrongly assembled or some part out of spec, and likely
> >a bit not present that should be.
>
> Congrats. It's hard to argue with success, but save the extra washer
> somewhere just in case you discover that it's needed. I'm still
> looking for a 121 exploded view, which might have a detail of the
> upper tension thing.

of course I'll keep the washer. It had 2 purposes, neither of which is needed to function fine. I don't know whether you're familiar with Berninas, they're the rolls royce of sewing machines, though the 121 being straight stitch is not of value. Before it was fixed I half wondered about selling it as parts for 125, the more able version.

The one bit of bad news re the 121 is that its mains lead is going to be needed for the 530-2, leaving it without one. A slight inconvenience perhaps for the end user. It does look a bit like IEC 9/10/11/12 mains lead connectors, but I doubt one would fit.

> >That leaves the [far better] 530-2, a 1960s all-mechanical
> >machine with camwheel operated stitch patterns. Good progress
> > - it now sews & keeps going at a good speed. Some jammed
> >bits are unstuck, but some remain jammed.
> >https://ibb.co/kw9AS5
> >https://ibb.co/diHx75
> >https://ibb.co/gFh8Ek
> >https://ibb.co/kV6DfQ
> >https://ibb.co/eqi4n5
> >https://ibb.co/cvWDfQ
>
> Thanks for the photos. Looks fairly clean, but it's hard to tell from
> photos. This might help with the cleaning ceremony:
> <http://tumorfarmer.blogspot.com/2015/09/bernina-530-2-sewing-machine.html>
> The author used alcohol and kerosene (separately). Also see the
> reader comments from Becky which have more detail on the cleaning.
>
> One change I would recommend is to NOT use cotton Q-tips in areas
> where there's a risk of stuffing some cotton into a bushing or
> bearing. It's very difficult to remove the cotton later. I have some
> really sharp and fine pointed stainless tweezers that work fairly
> well, but it's best to avoid that problem. Use the foam (lint free)
> type of Q-tips instead.

I plan to use plastic tube from q-tips to drip kero in. If still stuck I'll try alcohol too.

> Incidentally, the yellow colored crud in the photos is not dried oil.
> It's a mix of rust, dried oil, and water. I didn't see any in your
> photos, so at least you don't have a rust problem.

there is yellow/brown crud, no rust anywhere that I can see. I got bitten by that years ago, fixed a machine only to discover it wouldn't sew reliably because there was corrosion on the shuttle holder, so the thread sometimes caught on it.

> >Still jammed are:
> >- the needle position knob. The mechanism has a sprung detent
> >thing, and it is jammed absolutely rock solid. Soaking in oil,
> >baking in oven & plenty of force has had no effect.
>
> I'm fairly sure the thread is NOT left handed but it wouldn't hurt to
> check (somehow). There's probably a spring behind the detent, which
> is glued in place by gum. I'm not familiar with the mechanism, so I
> can't suggest where to apply brute force. Try penetrating oil.

I don't know which thread you mean. The pressy-round-thing will get a solvent soaking, and if necessary more baking.

> >- the stitch length knob moves but still very stiffly.
>
> I'm not sure, but the arm usually has a roller or bearing at the end.
> Make sure that the bearing is actually turning, and not sliding.

I'll look, though ISTR that being fairly inaccessible.

> >- the biggest problem is the stitch pattern selector. Again it's
> >rock solid jammed. Photos and video don't show the mechanism at
> >all, it's buried under other bits and one has to bob about to
> >spot bits of it and work out what it is. I hope to add
> >paraffin/kerosene tonight and cross fingers.
>
> No clue there. Again, look for a roller, bearing, or follower that is
> NOT turning. See if paraffin, kerosene, paint thinner, Kroil,
> naphtha, or whatever helps. If it does, add more of the same.
>
> Not much in the way of specific help, but better than nothing.

I think the part that's jammed consists of:
rod in bearing into case
then universal joint at other end
so will just soak it in solvents & bake & see what happens. Access is a mare but should be able to drip onto it, probably with a fair bit missing the thing, but kero & alcohol are harmless enough.

thank you
NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 20 July 2017 21:25:04 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 3:46:45 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
>
> Much snippage.
>
>
> > Still jammed:
> >
>
> Do you have access to Kroil? I used it recently (and successfully) to loosen a muffler-bearing (OK, an exhaust manifold bolt) on my wife's very vintage Volvo recently. It might be effective in your situation where the other stuff has no effect.
>
> http://www.kanolabs.com/google/?gclid=CjwKCAjwqcHLBRAqEiwA-j4AyMZzSaKDxpEn_pSE2fN7OvcTUxZ_OCv1nMZr-YJ0O0YORY9t1JmSIhoCtIAQAvD_BwE
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

No, I checked, I'll try other solvents first, and think again if necessary.


NT

[Mike Coon]

In article <ad46e2bf-b20d-42bd...@googlegroups.com>,
tabb...@gmail.com says...

>
> I don't know which thread you mean. The pressy-round-thing will get a
> solvent soaking, and if necessary more baking.

"Thread" does have a nice ambiguity in the context of sewing machines!

Mike.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Well, the 530-2 is no better despite soak time with paraffin. The 1960s instruction manual recommends petrol for this situation.


NT

[Mike Coon]

In article <05717ef7-b17a-41c4...@googlegroups.com>,
tabb...@gmail.com says...

>
> Well, the 530-2 is no better despite soak time with paraffin. The
> 1960s instruction manual recommends petrol for this situation.

And full immolation?

Mike.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 25 July 2017 23:33:38 UTC+1, Mike Coon wrote:
> In article <05717ef7-b17a-41c4...@googlegroups.com>,
> tabbypurr says...

> >
> > Well, the 530-2 is no better despite soak time with paraffin. The
> > 1960s instruction manual recommends petrol for this situation.
>
> And full immolation?
>
> Mike.

lol. It doesn't mention any possible risk so yay let's go for it.


NT

[pf...@aol.com]

Whyizzzit that one feels limited to using 1960s methods on 1960s machines?

It is 2017. We have means and methods that were not even dreams back in the day. Use them!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:20:44 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>Well, the 530-2 is no better despite soak time with paraffin.
>The 1960s instruction manual recommends petrol for this situation.
>NT

I'm not sure which of the noxious, explosive, corrosive, and cancerous
additives found in modern gasoline is considered most hazardous, but I
suggest you find something a little less dangerous. Please remember
that you have only one life to give for this repair project.

Have you tried penetrating oil (Kroil) to break things loose? My
guess(tm) is you're dealing with well hidden rust.

[pf...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 12:11:48 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Have you tried penetrating oil (Kroil) to break things loose? My
> guess(tm) is you're dealing with well hidden rust.
>

Yeah. Kroil. P-L-E-A-S-E.

Gasoline, diesel, kerosene - all of which are very nasty - are not good options for anything other than internal combustion engines, turbines and lamps. The latter in small quantities, and generally for emergency purposes.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 17:11:48 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:20:44 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
>
> >Well, the 530-2 is no better despite soak time with paraffin.
> >The 1960s instruction manual recommends petrol for this situation.
> >NT
>
> I'm not sure which of the noxious, explosive, corrosive, and cancerous
> additives found in modern gasoline is considered most hazardous, but I
> suggest you find something a little less dangerous. Please remember
> that you have only one life to give for this repair project.

If I knew where I had some in the shed I'd use it, but certainly not in the house.

> Have you tried penetrating oil (Kroil) to break things loose? My
> guess(tm) is you're dealing with well hidden rust.

Kroil doesn't seem to be sold here. Other penetrating oils are of course, though I've often used kero for this. WD40 aka white spirit is popular here.
I've no clue where my plusgas cans are, not seen them in a long time. So yes I probably need to buy some. I normally try what I've got first.

Right now I'm in downtime, and it may take a while to heal up, so the Berninas will probably have to wait.


NT