Fire shutoff

[Aoli]

I have an whole house fan and I want to put a fire shutoff device above
it that would in-line wire power to the fan but I do not know what they
are called or where to find them.

I used to live in a house that had that setup.

[dickjones]

I believe your after a firestat.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Not enough info. Is the fan part of an HVAC system or a stand alone
fan? Can you point to an example of the "whole house fan"? I don't
know if you want a simple thermal fuse such as:
<https://www.homedepot.com/p/SolarAtticFan-Fire-Safety-Cut-Off-Switch-FSCS-SS/203807520>
a shutoff tied into a home automation system which includes fire
sensors, or a mechanical solenoid attached to the main breaker that
turns off the breaker if a fire is detected. This pneumatic system is
made for race cars:
<https://timmcamis.com/shop/fire-system-electric-disconnect-kit.html>
<https://youtu.be/69B1qsnh7Zk>
but I suspect there may be something similar for homes.

These might help:

606.4.2 Fan Shutdown
<https://up.codes/s/fan-shutdown>

Should the HVAC System be Shut Down on Alarm?
<https://www.douglaskrantz.com/QFHVACShutdown.html>

HVAC Shutdown by Fire Alarm System
<https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=119122>

My guess(tm) is that it's called an "HVAC fire shutdown".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=hvac+fire+shutdown>
and that it requires a fire alarm system to implement.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Aoli]

Thanks all you have given me some keywords to point me in a good direction.

[Peter W.]

https://www.amazon.com/FireAvert-110V-Appliance-Shut-off-Device-Shark/dp/B07SFBXV6H As a stand-alone device.

http://techresource.online/guides/127 if you have a central-station alarm.

And, there are hybrids if you have wired smoke/heat detectors that will trip a relay in the loop. Essentially, a 'duct-mounted' smoke-detector and relay is the system you want, but without the duct.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Charles Lucas]

Are you adding an Ansul system to a stove hood for fire protection on oven or stove top or
are you adding sprinklers, or a whole house system, or a thermal detection system. Incidentally,
are you searching for dual ionization alarms (that detect enough smoke for food burning versus
enough smoke to detect a building is burning) as opposed to single ionization alarms (which go
off every time you light a match)? I am just asking because there is a little strategy involved for
proper fire protection on a home or building. Additionally, proper means of escape (and egress)
is extremely vital.

From,

Charles Lucas

[Peter W.]

Charles Lucas


Clearly, you do not read for content, and are incredibly bored such that you would both involve yourself in random posts and give generally inept advice. And, at the same time inviting abuse.

Not good!

[Charles Lucas]

I see what you mean and how it came across. Sorry about that. Now, let me tell you why I did it.
Adding additional information on my part that had nothing to do with this post makes me look silly- I get that.
I did this because few people think about how to make their home, building, workspace, dwelling, etc... a safe
place to live and work in terms of fire protection (few individuals really think of it). I went all over the map with
some other unrelated things, with the intent to jog someone's mind that to make a place safe, you really need
to work at it, instead of using some generic method of doing so in a set it and forget it way.

I mean and meant no disrespect to you, even defending myself. On your comment that I am inviting abuse, I am
not even going to get into with you at this point. I did apologize for any prior mistake, and I thought I cleaned the
slate with you (or made amends or I am at least attempting to). I apologize if anything I said anytime, anywhere
on use net posts was offensive to you. Apparently, I got into your crawl somehow (even at my own expense).The
intent was to glean more information from the OP because the post was originally unclear to begin with. I was
throwing in some things to perhaps glean clarity or more specific info. from the
original poster. Thank you for the rest of your advice and valued input.

Incidentally, I was not randomly choosing this post due to boredom (or for something to do). I work, I have other things to do. I get on
here in my spare time to offer help. Here is why the post was interesting to me and I chose to respond to it (and throw in a lot of
other options, to the point of unintentionally offending you). Why I chose this post on fire protection is because I was in a house that
caught fire at age 9 due to an electrical short in the wiring (caused by no grounds in the wiring- and ground was required in the NEC
codes the very next year) and the fire protection was inadequate. Although the fire I witnessed occurred over 40 years ago, the event
is still fresh in my mind and makes me err towards safety and caution (and is probably one of the reasons I became a tech. or certainly
influenced me to head in that direction). If the OP truly did want something else, then I missed it altogether. I was merely doing
my best to contribute something from what was a bad experience for me that someone else might benefit from. I did learn some things
over the years, so I thought I would throw those things in to see if anyone was interested in learning more. Let's just agree that you
disagree with me and have made your judgements about me. I refrain from judging you. That is not my Job. It is God's. Again, I have
intent here to do good, keep folks safe, even if it is a lot of added information not pertaining to the original post. I would rather look
silly, quite honestly, than see someone else hurt, injured, or killed. God Bless You. Thank You and Have a Great Day, Sir.

Sincerely,



Charles Lucas

[Peter W.]

Charles, you need to remember that this venue exists to provide overly complex solutions to simple problems after extensive discussions of picayune and irrelevant issues.

The OP wanted a device to shut off a whole-house exhaust fan if a fire (or smoke) is detected. Depending on what is already there, he has various options. They are not complicated, do not require specialized skills and are not overly costly.
The OP is not discussing an ANSUL system. And, given what I do for a living, I would _NEVER_ even suggest or refer to an ANSUL system in a normal family residence. I would suggest a good Class K fire extinguisher if one is that heavily into it that a standard ABC device would not be appropriate.

Sprinklers? That is an issue in itself. New-Code around here does require residential sprinkler systems under some circumstances. In new construction, they are merely costly. For existing construction, they can be extremely costly. Doing the math on our house as an example, it would take roughly forty (40) heads to include closets, turns, hallways and such. More if I could not use side-spray heads. Would "city pressure" be enough, or would I have to boost? 80 psi is required at full-flow, so no, city pressure (60 psi on the third floor - I know) would not be adequate. And, should there be an associated power-failure to the fire - Oops - now I need a fuel-fired pump. Note that we live in a center-hall colonial built in 1890. Not an easy finagle to get piping anywhere not already established. Even using a flex material (PEX or Vic-Flex).

So, the best advice under other-than-extreme conditions is to keep the smoke-detectors up-to-date, test them regularly, and RESPOND to them when they go off. Have the appropriate fire extinguishers in the appropriate locations, and even fire one off every so often to be familiar with their use. CO Detectors if one burns fuel in unvented or conventionally vented devices, and so forth. KISS

Common sense isn't.

Now, you want some irony? About 30 years ago, I was involved in a forensic investigation of a residential fire in a house built in 1795, but fully upgraded over the years. The owner had just upgraded his 100A service to a 200A service so as to install central AC, and also a brand new whole-house fire alarm, with all the bells, whistles, devices and so forth that were current in the 1990s. Local code then required that said fire alarm be powered directly from the mains, without a fuse or breaker. So, what did our clever electrician do? He connected the feed to the alarm (Copper) into the mains at the lugs (Aluminum). This being a fairly standard house in Chestnut Hill, PA, the basement was typically damp. Well, the aluminum started to talk hard to the copper, and between the two of them, sparks started to fly. *POOF*. Took a mere 45 days from installation. The 200A Panel was a puddle of steel on the floor. The fire got hot enough to ignite 200-year-old rough-sawn SLYP joists. Not easy. And, once they get started, they go.

[Charles Lucas]

Hi there, sir. Thank you for your more civil reply. I truly appreciate that. I want you to know I do care and I am trying to work on the areas where Imyself have flaws. I at least recognize I have them. I mean no harm and truly mean well. Also, the traumatic events of the fire I witnessed at myhouse is not one of those things that kept me down. The event motivated me to help other people to be safe and aware of things to keep themsafe. So, I am allowing (and I believe the good lord is allow it too) to take a really bad situation from my childhood to allow others to benefitfrom it, just by talking about it. I do this because no one thinks it can happen to them until it does. As an old saying goes, an ounce of preventionis worth a pound of cure.
I get your point on the first sentence, but you can please refrain from any further sarcasm now. I get you. Please bear in mind, I am doing this onmy own time too. I have no intention of wasting anyone's time. I stand corrected on any mistakes. Life is too short to go on with all of the thingsthat won't work all of the time, although it is okay to mention it once in a while. According to other sources, it had been said, Edison took 10,000 attempts to make the light bulb. We talk about what works to make it right. We do not talk about the other 9,999 items that failed. I touched on some points that were not germain to the conversation by merely adding those other things in (as suggestions), without mentioning fire extinguishers and classes (because usually people ask for more info. on that) as types of fire extinguishers are certainly fairly well publicized and people are educated about that. On the other hand, people are not as well educated about smoke alarms or fire alarms. Everyone seems to think they have tobuy a 10 buck fire alarm and a 5 dollar 9 volt battery and put up with the thing sounding off every single time you cook on a stovetop or bake fromthe oven as some smoke emits from those appliances (causing alarms to sound off with a 100 dB siren).
The rest of the material is very interesting and educational. Thank you. I learned a lot with it all. Very Good. Seems like you're a chief inspectorto know that much about fire protections, performance, etc... I mentioned the things I mentioned because I have never been there to thestate of Pennsylvania (know of friends who have). From what I know about the state, it was one of the original 13 colonies (in fact it was the2nd state- only behind the state of Delaware- to ratify the constitution), it has a lot of history. The history made me think of old buildings andtherefore, this jarred my mind to bring up a lot of other things about fire protection.
I truly appreciate your anecdote about the 200A panel and the lug nuts, each made from a different metal composition. Very interesting, aswere the effects. The outcome was very unfortunate. Things were made better 200 years ago when it came to fine carpentry. I appreciate that. I am sure finding things that are 200 years old these days is very difficult and much harder than it was in the past someyears ago earlier in our lifetime. Thank you very much for your really valuable information.

Sincerely,

Charles Lucas

[Bennett]

I'm curious - in case of a house fire do you want the attic fan to pull
out the smoke or stop pulling in fresh air?

[Peter W.]

> I'm curious - in case of a house fire do you want the attic fan to pull
> out the smoke or stop pulling in fresh air?

The very last thing that wants to happen is to introduce additional oxygen to the fire. An operating exhaust fan does exactly that, as well as establishes a 'flue'. Neither a good thing.

[Peter W.]

Charles:

One more try. And I will try not to be snarky. This is a discussion group with a focus on problem-solving with an electronics emphasis. It is also, perforce, done at at distance. Often the initiator of a discussion is not only on another continent, but also subject to different codes, a different environment, and often very different basic systems. Given that this venue is also frequented by those passing as, or attempting to pass as human, with all the associated foibles, peculiarities, assumptions and backgrounds (good, bad and indifferent), there will be the occasional outlier when it comes to advice given.

Generally, >I< attempt to:
a) understand the question.
b) understand the asker's purpose for the question.
c) attempt to clarify my understanding if not immediately clear.

Note, I write ONLY for myself. I do not write HOLY WRIT, although I try to be reasonably apt in my advice. And in most aspects of things discussed here, there are many who are vastly more experienced than I.

With all that in mind, only then will I offer advice, and only then to the extent that it is (in my experience/opinion) useful. I was not being snarky at all when I wrote: "... that this venue exists to provide overly complex solutions to simple problems after extensive discussions of picayune and irrelevant issues." That is one of the side-effects of Usenet - that there are those who feel it necessary to not only address the nits, but pick at them as well.

>>So. Let's start with the OP: I have an whole house fan and I want to put a fire shutoff device above

>>it that would in-line wire power to the fan but I do not know what they
>>are called or where to find them.

At the present moment, I work in a 600,000 s.f. (557,740 s.m.) medical research facility that is 100% fresh air throughout. So, whereas there no true return-air fans, but exhaust fans. Each one of them (14 in total) has an in-duct smoke detector that will shut it off should it trip. It will _ALSO_ shut off the associated air-handler. The system as a whole moves 46,200,000 c.f. (1,308,238 c.m.) of air per hour (7 changes, on average). Altogether, even if a 50-year-old system, pretty sophisticated and within current codes. So, yes, I understand the wish behind the OP's request. And even though this is a BIG system, I have worked with smaller systems as well. And installed any number of related systems either as an owner, or holding the tools for another owner. So, I tried to give a relatable, simple, and directed answer.

I am as good as the next guy at vituperation. And at least as snarky. I admit, even, to enjoying the wordplay when the opportunity presents. In your case, however, you are putting yourself in harm's way - however sincerely - by flying off on tangents and not 'stopping' while on those flights. Nobody here minds extraneous discussions, but with the expectation that, somehow, they are a natural outflow of the thread, a thread of their own, or similar. But when one sees upwards of several dozens of posts comingling fly-poop with pepper and discussing the grain-size of same, hence the "... venue exists...." line.

Nor does anyone mind inquiring about old posts. On occasion, I have updated my own reporting long-term results of a procedure, as that may be relevant to some.

It is "Aim. Ready. FIRE!". Not "FIRE!, Ready, Aim.

[ohg...@gmail.com]

I have a whole house fan as well as central air and use the fan on any summer night when the humidity is low. We love it. But I'm ashamed to admit that it never occurred to me that a whole house fan and a fire are bad news when running together. Ever fan a flame to increase the heat? That's what moving air does, and our fan moves so much air it will slam doors to the point where we have to block bedroom doors open lest we awakened by a chorus of doors slamming (once one goes, the rest follow).

I am going to tie our central detectors to the fan to shut it down when a fire is detected. I'm glad the OP asked this question.

[Charles Lucas]

Thank you for everything, Peter, sir. I understand completely where you are coming from. I shall be more judicious in the future before I respond. I realize I was all over the place on this thread (along with noting and emphasizing particular things- just things to think about, as stated before). Thank you for everything. No harm or irritation intended. Thank you for teaching me a lot here. God Bless You. Have a wonderful day.

Sincerely,

Charles Lucas