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Poxy lead-free solder (again) ...
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Arfa Daily
Jul 16, 2012, 8:06:22 AM7/16/12
to
God, how I hate the rotten stuff. I've now been caught twice in two weeks
with Sony KSS xxx series lasers. For those who don't know, these lasers (in
common with lots of other makes) are shipped with the laser diode shorted by
a blob of solder across two closely spaced pads on the little pcb that
carries the connector and power pot. You remove this blob once the device is
installed, by just touching your iron tip against it. The solder has always
in the past, just 'flowed' onto the iron tip by surface tension, I guess.
However, all that has changed with lead-free. Because the bloody stuff
'strings', you have to be REALLY careful that a barely visible whisker
hasn't been left across the pads.
If this happens, you're left with a laser that doesn't burn, and hence won't
read discs. The first one last week, was in a Pioneer, and was reasonably
easy to get at, but this morning's one wasted a whole bunch more time,
because the laser was in the depths of a mechanism in a 300 disc 'jukebox'
type player. You can't test without mostly reassembling the mech.
So now, rather than relying on a removal method that just worked, and on
most units could be carried out with the laser in situ and connected, it is
necessary to remove the solder blob with the laser right out so that you can
hold it up to a light to make sure that the gap is completely clear. Which
rather defeats the purpose of having the laser shorted in the first place
...
Arfa
with Sony KSS xxx series lasers. For those who don't know, these lasers (in
common with lots of other makes) are shipped with the laser diode shorted by
a blob of solder across two closely spaced pads on the little pcb that
carries the connector and power pot. You remove this blob once the device is
installed, by just touching your iron tip against it. The solder has always
in the past, just 'flowed' onto the iron tip by surface tension, I guess.
However, all that has changed with lead-free. Because the bloody stuff
'strings', you have to be REALLY careful that a barely visible whisker
hasn't been left across the pads.
If this happens, you're left with a laser that doesn't burn, and hence won't
read discs. The first one last week, was in a Pioneer, and was reasonably
easy to get at, but this morning's one wasted a whole bunch more time,
because the laser was in the depths of a mechanism in a 300 disc 'jukebox'
type player. You can't test without mostly reassembling the mech.
So now, rather than relying on a removal method that just worked, and on
most units could be carried out with the laser in situ and connected, it is
necessary to remove the solder blob with the laser right out so that you can
hold it up to a light to make sure that the gap is completely clear. Which
rather defeats the purpose of having the laser shorted in the first place
...
Arfa
N_Cook
Jul 16, 2012, 9:21:05 AM7/16/12
to
Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:2tTMr.934634$ME5.3...@fx22.am4...
So I suppose the lesson is solder a loose wire link across and remove their
blob , all in good lighting/viewing. Assemble and cut or desolder your wire
fudge bridge after placement.
news:2tTMr.934634$ME5.3...@fx22.am4...
blob , all in good lighting/viewing. Assemble and cut or desolder your wire
fudge bridge after placement.
klem kedidelhopper
Jul 21, 2012, 4:27:50 PM7/21/12
to
On Jul 16, 9:21 am, "N_Cook" <dive...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> Arfa Daily <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
I was given a small battery powered soldering iron a few years ago as
a gift. It came with a small coil of solder. In the beginning I'd take
it on small jobs with me and I noticed that I could never do a good
soldering job with the thing. Now I've been soldering for over 50
years so I figured it couldn't have been me. The solder wouldn't flow,
it would blob etc. Finally one morning while on the throne having
nothing better to read, I read trough the instructions for the
miserable thing. It seems like the manufacturer had seen fit to
package these things with lead free solder. As soon as I got rid of
the worthless stuff the iron was fine. Thankfully we don't have to
deal with that bullshit here in the US yet but it is getting difficult
to find 60/40 in surplus. I'm certain that one day some misinformed
idiot over here is going to picture a baby chewing on a PC board and
get a whole shitload of money and influence together and lobby
Congress to enact similar laws as the EU has. Then we'll be shaving
the whiskers off our boards too. Lenny
> Arfa Daily <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
a gift. It came with a small coil of solder. In the beginning I'd take
it on small jobs with me and I noticed that I could never do a good
soldering job with the thing. Now I've been soldering for over 50
years so I figured it couldn't have been me. The solder wouldn't flow,
it would blob etc. Finally one morning while on the throne having
nothing better to read, I read trough the instructions for the
miserable thing. It seems like the manufacturer had seen fit to
package these things with lead free solder. As soon as I got rid of
the worthless stuff the iron was fine. Thankfully we don't have to
deal with that bullshit here in the US yet but it is getting difficult
to find 60/40 in surplus. I'm certain that one day some misinformed
idiot over here is going to picture a baby chewing on a PC board and
get a whole shitload of money and influence together and lobby
Congress to enact similar laws as the EU has. Then we'll be shaving
the whiskers off our boards too. Lenny
N_Cook
Jul 21, 2012, 4:45:48 PM7/21/12
to
klem kedidelhopper <captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5f23888-3873-4b9f...@t32g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
+++++
So how many genuine American manufactures are there ? That is use
leaded-solder tinned components as well as leaded solder for assembly?
There is only one production line type used in China , Taiwan etc these days
, they had to go with Europe , the biggest market, 6 years ago and is now
all PbF (outside of derogated industry enduse ).
I suspect any genuine USA manufacturing, outside of the derogated
aerospace/medical/defense/nuclear industries, using proper solder, is in the
range 0 to 5 percent
Just because "American" equipment is not marked with PbF or RoHS etc , does
not mean there is not PbF inside. Do some basic physical tests on the solder
, along with researching the UL E-number on the boards will likely show its
from the orient .
news:d5f23888-3873-4b9f...@t32g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
So how many genuine American manufactures are there ? That is use
leaded-solder tinned components as well as leaded solder for assembly?
There is only one production line type used in China , Taiwan etc these days
, they had to go with Europe , the biggest market, 6 years ago and is now
all PbF (outside of derogated industry enduse ).
I suspect any genuine USA manufacturing, outside of the derogated
aerospace/medical/defense/nuclear industries, using proper solder, is in the
range 0 to 5 percent
Just because "American" equipment is not marked with PbF or RoHS etc , does
not mean there is not PbF inside. Do some basic physical tests on the solder
, along with researching the UL E-number on the boards will likely show its
from the orient .
Ian Field
Jul 21, 2012, 5:18:51 PM7/21/12
to
"N_Cook" wrote in message news:ju14ph$an2$1...@dont-email.me...
"kludge" wire that you can wiggle off once the laser is safely in. Maybe a
strip of thick black anti-static bag & a paper clip on the end of the
flexiprint between the blob coming off & the link going on.
Arfa Daily
Jul 21, 2012, 9:33:21 PM7/21/12
to
"Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:N0FOr.22676$PE.2...@fx04.am4...
coming up with this crap in order to make what was a perfectly suitable
system work again, now that they've changed over to this useless,
not-fit-for-purpose electric glue ... >:-(
Arfa
Ian Field
Jul 22, 2012, 10:04:46 AM7/22/12
to
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message news:DLIOr.29112$ma6....@fx09.am4...
the 80's (might have been Sinclair?) quit doing home build kits after
someone returned a kit to their service dept, all the components very neatly
assembled into the PCB - and secured with polystyrene cement!
***I'd put money on it being one of the Brussels suits behind the RoHS
directive.
Arfa Daily
Jul 22, 2012, 7:30:14 PM7/22/12
to
news:3MTOr.58009$Hs2....@fx27.am4...
ROTFLMAO !!!!
Arfa
Arfa
klem kedidelhopper
Jul 23, 2012, 7:31:56 PM7/23/12
to
On Jul 22, 7:30 pm, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
Cement!!!
Some people should not be allowed to operate a door bell. Idiocy has
no bounds. Lenny
> "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3MTOr.58009$Hs2....@fx27.am4...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Arfa Daily" wrote in messagenews:DLIOr.29112$ma6....@fx09.am4...
>
> > "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:3MTOr.58009$Hs2....@fx27.am4...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Arfa Daily" wrote in messagenews:DLIOr.29112$ma6....@fx09.am4...
>
> >news:N0FOr.22676$PE.2...@fx04.am4...
>
> >> "N_Cook" wrote in messagenews:ju14ph$an2$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >> Arfa Daily <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>
> >> "N_Cook" wrote in messagenews:ju14ph$an2$1...@dont-email.me...
>
Some people should not be allowed to operate a door bell. Idiocy has
no bounds. Lenny
Ian Field
Jul 24, 2012, 12:12:05 PM7/24/12
to
news:94ec0fc1-00dc-4894...@u2g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Polystyrene cement - AKA; Airfix glue.
Terry Casey
Jul 28, 2012, 1:40:41 PM7/28/12
to
In article <3MTOr.58009$Hs2....@fx27.am4>,
gangprob...@ntlworld.com says...
personal computers - which had been put together with Solderlene* - sold
as liquid cold solder!
Basically, polystyrene cement with silver colouring added ...!
*It's still around!
http://www.alcolin.com/diy-products/solvent-based/solderlene
I don't think the tubes said anything about being non conductive in
those days, though!
--
Terry
gangprob...@ntlworld.com says...
>
> ***Just remembered an amusing anecdote: One of the home computer firms in
> the 80's (might have been Sinclair?) quit doing home build kits after
> someone returned a kit to their service dept, all the components very neatly
> assembled into the PCB - and secured with polystyrene cement!
>
I saw one once! It was a transistor radio kit - a bit before the days of
> ***Just remembered an amusing anecdote: One of the home computer firms in
> the 80's (might have been Sinclair?) quit doing home build kits after
> someone returned a kit to their service dept, all the components very neatly
> assembled into the PCB - and secured with polystyrene cement!
>
personal computers - which had been put together with Solderlene* - sold
as liquid cold solder!
Basically, polystyrene cement with silver colouring added ...!
*It's still around!
http://www.alcolin.com/diy-products/solvent-based/solderlene
I don't think the tubes said anything about being non conductive in
those days, though!
--
Terry
klem kedidelhopper
Jul 28, 2012, 3:17:41 PM7/28/12
to
On Jul 28, 1:40 pm, Terry Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:
> In article <3MTOr.58009$Hs2.47...@fx27.am4>,
> gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com says...
We have JB Weld in the US. I wonder if it's a similar product. I've
heard of people plugging holes in gas tanks with this stuff. Lenny
http://jbweld.net/index.php
> In article <3MTOr.58009$Hs2.47...@fx27.am4>,
> gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com says...
heard of people plugging holes in gas tanks with this stuff. Lenny
http://jbweld.net/index.php
Ian Field
Jul 28, 2012, 4:01:56 PM7/28/12
to
news:efd4d0d5-f652-467a...@u9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
contact with petrol, and as such makes a good repair putty for fuel tanks.
I've made no attempt to test this theory - any experiments along these lines
are entirely at your own risk!
> On Jul 28, 1:40 pm, Terry Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <3MTOr.58009$Hs2.47...@fx27.am4>,
>> gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com says...
>>
>>
>>
>> > ***Just remembered an amusing anecdote: One of the home computer firms
>> > in
>> > the 80's (might have been Sinclair?) quit doing home build kits after
>> > someone returned a kit to their service dept, all the components very
>> > neatly
>> > assembled into the PCB - and secured with polystyrene cement!
>>
>> I saw one once! It was a transistor radio kit - a bit before the days of
>> personal computers - which had been put together with Solderlene* - sold
>> as liquid cold solder!
>>
>> Basically, polystyrene cement with silver colouring added ...!
>>
>> *It's still around!
>>
>> http://www.alcolin.com/diy-products/solvent-based/solderlene
>>
>> I don't think the tubes said anything about being non conductive in
>> those days, though!
Someone on a motorcycle group has claimed that Blu-tack sets rock hard in
>> In article <3MTOr.58009$Hs2.47...@fx27.am4>,
>> gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com says...
>>
>>
>>
>> > ***Just remembered an amusing anecdote: One of the home computer firms
>> > in
>> > the 80's (might have been Sinclair?) quit doing home build kits after
>> > someone returned a kit to their service dept, all the components very
>> > neatly
>> > assembled into the PCB - and secured with polystyrene cement!
>>
>> I saw one once! It was a transistor radio kit - a bit before the days of
>> personal computers - which had been put together with Solderlene* - sold
>> as liquid cold solder!
>>
>> Basically, polystyrene cement with silver colouring added ...!
>>
>> *It's still around!
>>
>> http://www.alcolin.com/diy-products/solvent-based/solderlene
>>
>> I don't think the tubes said anything about being non conductive in
>> those days, though!
contact with petrol, and as such makes a good repair putty for fuel tanks.
I've made no attempt to test this theory - any experiments along these lines
are entirely at your own risk!
et...@whidbey.com
Jul 28, 2012, 10:38:09 PM7/28/12
to
electronic devices is compared to the lead that used to be in paint
and gasoline? In the July 28th issue of Science News there is an
article about California Condors ingesting lead from animals killed by
being shot with lead bullets or shot. According to the article the
condors are being poisoned by the lead and it has such a deleterious
effect on the condors that without human care the condors would die
out. Their population is not self sustaining without human
intervention because of the lead. And there is plenty of evidence that
lead in gasoline and lead bearing paint has caused neurogical damage,
among other health problems, in children. Banning leaded gasoline and
lead bearing paint has shown a marked decrease in neurological
deficits in children typically exposed to lead in the past. Even so,
how much of a problem is lead in electronic devices? Would we be
better off with some type of legislation that requires electronic
devices to be accepted by retailers for recycling? Maybe by putting a
deposit on electronic devices that is refunded when the device is
replaced?
Eric
N_Cook
Jul 29, 2012, 3:03:06 AM7/29/12
to
<et...@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:um79181a57a4aqblu...@4ax.com...
It hinges on what you mean by "recycling"
Fashions and technology-advance mean zero recycling of components.
Substantial single-type metalwork is separated and recycled , the rest is
sent exceedingly cheaply in otherwise empty conntainers to Asia where it is
burnt and residual metal extracted from the cremulators.
Gizard anatomy birds like swans , have much improved health since the
banning of lead fishing weights in the UK. Birds shot with lead or
lead-substitute are still dead , so no health improvement there.
news:um79181a57a4aqblu...@4ax.com...
Fashions and technology-advance mean zero recycling of components.
Substantial single-type metalwork is separated and recycled , the rest is
sent exceedingly cheaply in otherwise empty conntainers to Asia where it is
burnt and residual metal extracted from the cremulators.
Gizard anatomy birds like swans , have much improved health since the
banning of lead fishing weights in the UK. Birds shot with lead or
lead-substitute are still dead , so no health improvement there.
Arfa Daily
Jul 29, 2012, 6:30:06 AM7/29/12
to
<snip>
> I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
> electronic devices is compared to the lead that used to be in paint
> and gasoline? In the July 28th issue of Science News there is an
> article about California Condors ingesting lead from animals killed by
> being shot with lead bullets or shot. According to the article the
> condors are being poisoned by the lead and it has such a deleterious
> effect on the condors that without human care the condors would die
> out. Their population is not self sustaining without human
> intervention because of the lead. And there is plenty of evidence that
> lead in gasoline and lead bearing paint has caused neurogical damage,
> among other health problems, in children. Banning leaded gasoline and
> lead bearing paint has shown a marked decrease in neurological
> deficits in children typically exposed to lead in the past. Even so,
> how much of a problem is lead in electronic devices? Would we be
> better off with some type of legislation that requires electronic
> devices to be accepted by retailers for recycling? Maybe by putting a
> deposit on electronic devices that is refunded when the device is
> replaced?
> Eric
Removal of lead from gasoline and paint, were valid exercises, as the lead
from the gasoline fumes was easily ingested, and the lead from paint could
find its way into the environment in an ingestible form, reasonably easily.
However, solder appears to have gotten itself hitched to these campaigns,
merely by association. It was, as far as I can tell, another example of
hysteria that surrounds the eco-bollox movement, and any perceived
detrimental effects of lead being in solder, have been hugely exaggerated,
and are largely without foundation.
Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it in
water. Pure lead is not soluble in water. There was talk of it being a huge
problem with electronic items in landfill, having the lead 'leeched out' of
the solder by ground water, but there seems to be little evidence that this
ever did, or could occur, without the rain being extremely acidic, and that
situation hasn't existed for years since industrial airborne pollutants were
legislated against in most of the civilised world.
For some years now, EU countries have had the Waste Electrical and
Electronic Equipment (WEEE) directive in place, and this ensures that all
electronic equipment is 'recycled' in some form. As Nigel says in his posted
reply, this does not actually ensure that much in the way of 'true'
recycling is done, but as all of the equipment now *has* to find its way
back into the system, paid for by the manufacturer as a levy on his sales,
then it *could* be. It would not be that hard to re-extract the lead, if
possibly a little more costly.
Everyone at the sharp end knows, in truth, that lead-free solder is pretty
useless stuff. Like eco-bollox lightbulbs, it's not a replacement
technology, it's a substitute one. It has caused both the electronic
manufacturing and repair industries huge problems in the requirement to
change equipment and processes, and in increased energy useage, And for what
? To address a 'problem' that wasn't there in the first place. Aside from
the manufacturing and service problems it has caused, I would contend that
it has almost certainly resulted in a far larger quantity of consumer
electronic equipment being life-ended earlier than would have previously
been the case, due to bad joint-related failures that are not worth getting
repaired, because it's cheaper to just buy a replacement piece of Chinese
junk from the nearest shed or supermarket. This has the knock-on effect of
being hugely wasteful of resources and energy, which is a far greater
overall problem to the well-being of fauna on this planet, than lead in
solder ever was ...
You might want to consider why in any areas where equipment is likely to be
used to preserve human life - e.g. avionics, medical, military - such
equipment is exempt from the lead-free solder manufacturing requirement,
that non-critical equipment has to abide by.
Arfa
> I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
> electronic devices is compared to the lead that used to be in paint
> and gasoline? In the July 28th issue of Science News there is an
> article about California Condors ingesting lead from animals killed by
> being shot with lead bullets or shot. According to the article the
> condors are being poisoned by the lead and it has such a deleterious
> effect on the condors that without human care the condors would die
> out. Their population is not self sustaining without human
> intervention because of the lead. And there is plenty of evidence that
> lead in gasoline and lead bearing paint has caused neurogical damage,
> among other health problems, in children. Banning leaded gasoline and
> lead bearing paint has shown a marked decrease in neurological
> deficits in children typically exposed to lead in the past. Even so,
> how much of a problem is lead in electronic devices? Would we be
> better off with some type of legislation that requires electronic
> devices to be accepted by retailers for recycling? Maybe by putting a
> deposit on electronic devices that is refunded when the device is
> replaced?
> Eric
from the gasoline fumes was easily ingested, and the lead from paint could
find its way into the environment in an ingestible form, reasonably easily.
However, solder appears to have gotten itself hitched to these campaigns,
merely by association. It was, as far as I can tell, another example of
hysteria that surrounds the eco-bollox movement, and any perceived
detrimental effects of lead being in solder, have been hugely exaggerated,
and are largely without foundation.
Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it in
water. Pure lead is not soluble in water. There was talk of it being a huge
problem with electronic items in landfill, having the lead 'leeched out' of
the solder by ground water, but there seems to be little evidence that this
ever did, or could occur, without the rain being extremely acidic, and that
situation hasn't existed for years since industrial airborne pollutants were
legislated against in most of the civilised world.
For some years now, EU countries have had the Waste Electrical and
Electronic Equipment (WEEE) directive in place, and this ensures that all
electronic equipment is 'recycled' in some form. As Nigel says in his posted
reply, this does not actually ensure that much in the way of 'true'
recycling is done, but as all of the equipment now *has* to find its way
back into the system, paid for by the manufacturer as a levy on his sales,
then it *could* be. It would not be that hard to re-extract the lead, if
possibly a little more costly.
Everyone at the sharp end knows, in truth, that lead-free solder is pretty
useless stuff. Like eco-bollox lightbulbs, it's not a replacement
technology, it's a substitute one. It has caused both the electronic
manufacturing and repair industries huge problems in the requirement to
change equipment and processes, and in increased energy useage, And for what
? To address a 'problem' that wasn't there in the first place. Aside from
the manufacturing and service problems it has caused, I would contend that
it has almost certainly resulted in a far larger quantity of consumer
electronic equipment being life-ended earlier than would have previously
been the case, due to bad joint-related failures that are not worth getting
repaired, because it's cheaper to just buy a replacement piece of Chinese
junk from the nearest shed or supermarket. This has the knock-on effect of
being hugely wasteful of resources and energy, which is a far greater
overall problem to the well-being of fauna on this planet, than lead in
solder ever was ...
You might want to consider why in any areas where equipment is likely to be
used to preserve human life - e.g. avionics, medical, military - such
equipment is exempt from the lead-free solder manufacturing requirement,
that non-critical equipment has to abide by.
Arfa
Ian Field
Jul 29, 2012, 11:56:20 AM7/29/12
to
procurement, but it was truly staggering!!!
Many thousands of tons of lead converted to tetra-ethyl-lead and added to
petrol and ultimately dispersed into the atmosphere as particulates.
Lead-solder is a relatively stable alloy (except at extremes of temperature)
that is ultimately safer than the raw lead & its ores/oxides mined out of
the ground in the first place.
The brussels suits truly are the ultimate in dumbass fuckwits!!!
Michael A. Terrell
Jul 29, 2012, 3:04:52 PM7/29/12
to
Ian Field wrote:
>
> The brussels suits truly are the ultimate in dumbass fuckwits!!!
Mark Zenier
Aug 1, 2012, 3:07:19 PM8/1/12
to
In article <um79181a57a4aqblu...@4ax.com>,
Business Week. There was a battle going on, at least in their pages,
between recycling and the garbage incinerators. (Incinerators are a
much bigger thing in Europe and Japan than in the US).
The companies that built the garbage burners, and the companies that use
these burners to generate electric power are some of the main movers for
"getting the lead out". Before the days of recycling industry and its
high tech garbage sorting, that was seen as the cheaper way to reduce
their air pollution problem. And they had the money to lobby (or buy off)
the bureaucrats.
So after a couple of decades, it's been institutionalized in the EU
bureaucracy, and picked up by the greens, too. So it will probably
live on, even if a better recycling scheme would make lead free
electronics unnecessary.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
<et...@whidbey.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:27:50 -0700 (PDT), klem kedidelhopper
><captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
>On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:27:50 -0700 (PDT), klem kedidelhopper
><captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Thankfully we don't have to
>>deal with that bullshit here in the US yet but it is getting difficult
>>to find 60/40 in surplus. I'm certain that one day some misinformed
>>idiot over here is going to picture a baby chewing on a PC board and
>>get a whole shitload of money and influence together and lobby
>>Congress to enact similar laws as the EU has. Then we'll be shaving
>>the whiskers off our boards too. Lenny
>I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
>electronic devices is compared to the lead that used to be in paint
>and gasoline?
...
>>deal with that bullshit here in the US yet but it is getting difficult
>>to find 60/40 in surplus. I'm certain that one day some misinformed
>>idiot over here is going to picture a baby chewing on a PC board and
>>get a whole shitload of money and influence together and lobby
>>Congress to enact similar laws as the EU has. Then we'll be shaving
>>the whiskers off our boards too. Lenny
>I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
>electronic devices is compared to the lead that used to be in paint
>and gasoline?
Banning leaded gasoline and
>lead bearing paint has shown a marked decrease in neurological
>deficits in children typically exposed to lead in the past. Even so,
>how much of a problem is lead in electronic devices? Would we be
>better off with some type of legislation that requires electronic
>devices to be accepted by retailers for recycling? Maybe by putting a
>deposit on electronic devices that is refunded when the device is
>replaced?
Back about 20 years ago, I was a regular reader of Forbes, Fortune,
>lead bearing paint has shown a marked decrease in neurological
>deficits in children typically exposed to lead in the past. Even so,
>how much of a problem is lead in electronic devices? Would we be
>better off with some type of legislation that requires electronic
>devices to be accepted by retailers for recycling? Maybe by putting a
>deposit on electronic devices that is refunded when the device is
>replaced?
Business Week. There was a battle going on, at least in their pages,
between recycling and the garbage incinerators. (Incinerators are a
much bigger thing in Europe and Japan than in the US).
The companies that built the garbage burners, and the companies that use
these burners to generate electric power are some of the main movers for
"getting the lead out". Before the days of recycling industry and its
high tech garbage sorting, that was seen as the cheaper way to reduce
their air pollution problem. And they had the money to lobby (or buy off)
the bureaucrats.
So after a couple of decades, it's been institutionalized in the EU
bureaucracy, and picked up by the greens, too. So it will probably
live on, even if a better recycling scheme would make lead free
electronics unnecessary.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
whit3rd
Aug 3, 2012, 4:24:47 AM8/3/12
to
On Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:30:06 AM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
>
> > electronic devices is ...
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
>
>
> Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it in
>
> water. Pure lead is not soluble in water.
Not in pure water, maybe, but organic acids (acetic acid) attack lead
> Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it in
>
> water. Pure lead is not soluble in water.
and you can't have decomposition of organics in contact with lead in a landfill,
without some leaching.
Phil Hobbs
Aug 3, 2012, 10:45:32 AM8/3/12
to
layers, and even if they weren't, heavy metals don't go anywhere in
ground water at earth-surface normal temperatures. See the Oklo natural
reactor in Gabon. It was sitting right there in an aquifer, and
operated on and off for half a million years. The fission products
went something like 1 mile in well over 1 billion years.
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling.
To save some gloves and respirators, they created a monster. Typical
Eurocrat BS.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
William Sommerwerck
Aug 3, 2012, 11:03:55 AM8/3/12
to
> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
> doing recycling.
That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other solvents)
> doing recycling.
leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking water.
tm
Aug 3, 2012, 11:36:35 AM8/3/12
to
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgp8h$7re$1...@dont-email.me...
William Sommerwerck
Aug 3, 2012, 12:44:54 PM8/3/12
to
>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
>>> doing recycling.
>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
>> other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
>> and it winds up in drinking water.
> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
It's not BS if it's true.
>>> doing recycling.
>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
>> other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
>> and it winds up in drinking water.
> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
I have never seen conclusive evidence one way or another. From my
perspective, the real issue is the huge piles of electronic trash generated
every year. If these were properly recycled and/or disposed of, there
probably wouldn't be an issue with lead.
Ian Field
Aug 3, 2012, 12:49:10 PM8/3/12
to
news:jvgv5t$csc$1...@dont-email.me...
Europe has the WEEE directive to deal with waste electronics equipment - but
the recycling facilities are being overstretched due to the increased volume
of scrap caused by low life expectancy lead free solder.
the recycling facilities are being overstretched due to the increased volume
of scrap caused by low life expectancy lead free solder.
Ian Field
Aug 3, 2012, 12:50:18 PM8/3/12
to
"tm" <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote in message
news:jvgqsp$hn8$1...@dont-email.me...
Arfa Daily
Aug 3, 2012, 8:31:06 PM8/3/12
to
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:IIqdnWc_CruQeYbN...@supernews.com...
> On 08/03/2012 04:24 AM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:30:06 AM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
>>>
>>>> electronic devices is ...
>>>
>>> Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it
>>> in
>>>
>>> water. Pure lead is not soluble in water.
>>
>> Not in pure water, maybe, but organic acids (acetic acid) attack lead
>> and you can't have decomposition of organics in contact with lead in a
>> landfill,
>> without some leaching.
>
> Which goes nowhere at all. Landfills are lined with very thick clay
> layers, and even if they weren't, heavy metals don't go anywhere in ground
> water at earth-surface normal temperatures. See the Oklo natural reactor
> in Gabon. It was sitting right there in an aquifer, and operated on and
> off for half a million years. The fission products went something like 1
> mile in well over 1 billion years.
>
> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling. To
> save some gloves and respirators, they created a monster. Typical
> Eurocrat BS.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
Succinct analysis ...
>> On Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:30:06 AM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in
>>>
>>>> electronic devices is ...
>>>
>>> Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it
>>> in
>>>
>>> water. Pure lead is not soluble in water.
>>
>> Not in pure water, maybe, but organic acids (acetic acid) attack lead
>> and you can't have decomposition of organics in contact with lead in a
>> landfill,
>> without some leaching.
>
> Which goes nowhere at all. Landfills are lined with very thick clay
> layers, and even if they weren't, heavy metals don't go anywhere in ground
> water at earth-surface normal temperatures. See the Oklo natural reactor
> in Gabon. It was sitting right there in an aquifer, and operated on and
> off for half a million years. The fission products went something like 1
> mile in well over 1 billion years.
>
> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling. To
> save some gloves and respirators, they created a monster. Typical
> Eurocrat BS.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
Arfa
Arfa Daily
Aug 3, 2012, 8:36:52 PM8/3/12
to
news:1iTSr.512650$1o5....@fx03.am4...
Yes, it's a truly elegant example of self-fulfilling nonsense legislation,
enacted by fools who have insufficient knowledge of the subject and the
wider implications of the changes they cause ...
Arfa
enacted by fools who have insufficient knowledge of the subject and the
wider implications of the changes they cause ...
Arfa
N_Cook
Aug 4, 2012, 3:37:57 AM8/4/12
to
economy (with E European or Mexican labour/labor rates) . If metals pricing
goes down then even that section , which as far as electronics scrap is
really only the metal casings of pcs , will go back in those thousands of
otherwise empty shipping containers back to the east. The dodgey sell-on of
containers of "nominally" working scrap electronics to Africa will continue
though.
Ian Field
Aug 4, 2012, 10:31:26 AM8/4/12
to
"N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jvijj9$qgj$1...@dont-email.me...
two of the "nominally working" items were TVs doctored by the investigating
team to not qualify for that classification, and fitted with tracking radios
to find out where they ended up - usualy W. Africa.
Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance with the WEEE
directive; end up in a big pile in India, which is set alight and street
urchins (usually barefoot) shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it
runs out the bottom of the pile.
Rod Speed
Aug 5, 2012, 1:47:42 AM8/5/12
to
Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling.
>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>> solvents)
>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking water.
>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling.
>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>> solvents)
>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking water.
>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
Arfa Daily
Aug 5, 2012, 8:25:24 AM8/5/12
to
news:RmaTr.663417$fu5.3...@fx17.am4...
Isn't it lovely how we continue to give useful and worthwhile work to the
ex-colonies ... :-)
Arfa
ex-colonies ... :-)
Arfa
Arfa Daily
Aug 5, 2012, 8:33:40 AM8/5/12
to
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a86foj...@mid.individual.net...
pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside of
those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
The whole 'lead in the environment' argument makes little sense, apart from
in a few special cases like lead in gasoline and paint. Certainly, lead in
solder posed no threat at all, and removing it has, in my opinion, been a
disastrous retrograde step for the 'green' movement in general, and the
electronics construction and servicing industries in particular. Using the
stuff leads to increased production costs and energy budgets, and often
shorter product lives than would otherwise have been the case when the
mature and reliable technology of leaded solder was used.
Arfa
William Sommerwerck
Aug 5, 2012, 8:48:06 AM8/5/12
to
> Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance
> with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
> which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
> shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
> the bottom of the pile.
I find this hard to believe.
> with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
> which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
> shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
> the bottom of the pile.
A charged lead-acid battery contains plates of both elemental lead and some
oxidized form of lead. Burning the battery would presumably release only the
former, a waste of the latter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery
A discharged battery contains less elemental lead and more oxidized lead.
Burning it will not reduce the oxidized lead to elemental lead.
Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades. The cell
construction of a car battery makes recycling relatively straightforward.
Burning the battery is just plain stupid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery_recycling
Note the remark about the sometimes-high value of lead-acid batteries.
In short, I think this story is phony-baloney.
Ian Field
Aug 5, 2012, 8:49:10 AM8/5/12
to
"Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:GKtTr.387411$GO2....@fx05.am4...
actually binding a hazardous substance and effectively isolating it from the
environment.
Ian Field
Aug 5, 2012, 11:39:24 AM8/5/12
to
news:jvlq1q$c3o$1...@dont-email.me...
state of the art metal reclamation plant.
>> Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance
>> with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
>> which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
>> shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
>> the bottom of the pile.
>
> I find this hard to believe.
>
> A charged lead-acid battery contains plates of both elemental lead and
> some
> oxidized form of lead. Burning the battery would presumably release only
> the
> former, a waste of the latter.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery
>
> A discharged battery contains less elemental lead and more oxidized lead.
> Burning it will not reduce the oxidized lead to elemental lead.
>
> Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades. The cell
> construction of a car battery makes recycling relatively straightforward.
> Burning the battery is just plain stupid.
Unfortunately the slum dwellers in India never got around to installing
>> with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
>> which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
>> shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
>> the bottom of the pile.
>
> I find this hard to believe.
>
> A charged lead-acid battery contains plates of both elemental lead and
> some
> oxidized form of lead. Burning the battery would presumably release only
> the
> former, a waste of the latter.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery
>
> A discharged battery contains less elemental lead and more oxidized lead.
> Burning it will not reduce the oxidized lead to elemental lead.
>
> Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades. The cell
> construction of a car battery makes recycling relatively straightforward.
> Burning the battery is just plain stupid.
state of the art metal reclamation plant.
William Sommerwerck
Aug 5, 2012, 12:17:26 PM8/5/12
to
>> Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades.
>> The cell construction of a car battery makes recycling
>> relatively straightforward. Burning the battery is just plain
>> stupid.
> Unfortunately the slum dwellers in India never got around
> to installing a state-of-the-art metal-reclamation plant.
>> The cell construction of a car battery makes recycling
>> relatively straightforward. Burning the battery is just plain
>> stupid.
> Unfortunately the slum dwellers in India never got around
True. But the point is that there seems to be no point in doing a botched,
inefficient job of reclaiming battery lead.
Jeff Liebermann
Aug 5, 2012, 12:20:34 PM8/5/12
to
On Sat, 4 Aug 2012 15:31:26 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>There was a documentary on TV about that something like a year ago - one or
>two of the "nominally working" items were TVs doctored by the investigating
>team to not qualify for that classification, and fitted with tracking radios
>to find out where they ended up - usualy W. Africa.
"Britain's e-waste illegally leaking into West Africa"
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>There was a documentary on TV about that something like a year ago - one or
>two of the "nominally working" items were TVs doctored by the investigating
>team to not qualify for that classification, and fitted with tracking radios
>to find out where they ended up - usualy W. Africa.
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9483000/9483148.stm>
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0116gw0>
"e-Waste in Ghana"
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr1zQrXM_7s>
However, the Ghana story migth be a hoax. I can't tell as I have no
way to check the facts:
<http://retroworks.blogspot.com/2012/02/science-daily-africa-e-waste-hoax.html>
<http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11000554-ewaste-recycling-hoax-ngo-basel-action-network-profits-from-racist-images>
"Most lead batteries do not end up with registered recyclers"
<http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/article855184.ece>
Where does e-waste end up? from Greenpeace.
<http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/toxics/electronics/the-e-waste-problem/where-does-e-waste-end-up/>
>Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance with the WEEE
>directive; end up in a big pile in India, which is set alight and street
>urchins (usually barefoot) shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it
>runs out the bottom of the pile.
<http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.
I have several lead bricks in my palatial office. They are VERY
heavy. Filling a wheelbarrow with molten lead would weigh so much
that it would collapse the tire and tip over (because a wheel barrow
is by definition top heavy). At 690 lbs per cubic foot, even filling
a small 4 cubic foot wheelbarrow 1/4th full is too much.
"New method for recycling lead acid batteries"
<http://36ci.com/news/new-method-recycling-lead-acid-batteries>
I couldn't find any details.
Greenpeace video on "Where does e-waste end up?"
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JZey9GJQP0>
Punch "e-Waste" into YouTube search for more horror stories.
Note what is considered valuable in recycled computahs and
electronics. Here's one recycler who posts his prices (1 week old).
<http://www.scrapmonster.com/scrap-prices/Electronics-Scrap/Motherboards-scraps/46/1/1>
Note that whole computahs only get $0.30/lb, while motherboards get
$4.25/lb. Obviously, it's not the solder that they want.
I've commented on lead recycling politics in this newsgroup several
times in the distant past. I don't want to recycle my comments again.
If anyone wants links, I can Google for them and post them.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ian Field
Aug 5, 2012, 2:27:39 PM8/5/12
to
news:jvm6a9$k2s$1...@dont-email.me...
Nonetheless its a shitty job that the countries of origin don't want to
dirty their hands with - so they dump them in a heap in an Indian slum
district and let the street urchins get on with it.
dirty their hands with - so they dump them in a heap in an Indian slum
district and let the street urchins get on with it.
Ian Field
Aug 5, 2012, 2:33:19 PM8/5/12
to
"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:hr4t18t30bi35kodb...@4ax.com...
costs & environmental precaution, its just cheaper to export the old
batteries to a developing country with slums & street urchins to reclaim the
metal for a days food.
Jeff Liebermann
Aug 5, 2012, 4:22:01 PM8/5/12
to
income by blocking or taxing such exports? It can be done, but it
would create an "unemployment" problem at the bottom end.
Incidentally, India isn't exactly a "developing country":
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/poll/2011/aug/16/india-us-aid-poll>
I'm gratified to see that there are now 14 lead recycling plants in
the USA.
<http://www.americasbatteryrecyclers.com/association.html>
That's up from about 5 plants about 10 years ago. However, digging
through their various web piles, I find that some are either battery
manufacturers, that can profit directly from the reclaimed lead, or
collection points for smelters in Puerto Rico and Mexico.
Arfa Daily
Aug 5, 2012, 4:43:40 PM8/5/12
to
news:XYtTr.508172$v24.2...@fx11.am4...
Yes, quite. I think I made the point earlier that, as you say, tin and lead
is a stable compound
Arfa
is a stable compound
Arfa
Ian Field
Aug 5, 2012, 4:47:22 PM8/5/12
to
news:hijt18pb6mmo8s2ei...@4ax.com...
their bare feet, and it pollutes large areas of ground & possibly
groundwater.
They also had a "nice little earner" decommissioning scrap warships - which
involved shoveling out literally tons of asbestos lagging.
Unless you think the slum dwellers should be euthanized because they're
poor, they'd probably be better off without this hazard dumped on their
doorstep.
Thick as they are, I doubt this is what the Brussells suits had in mind when
they passed the WEEE directive.
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 19:33:19 +0100, "Ian Field"
> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>> I doubt it. This is how it's done:
>>> <http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
>>> It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.
>
>>Problem is; some dodgy characters have found after employee health &
>>welfare
>>costs & environmental precaution, its just cheaper to export the old
>>batteries to a developing country with slums & street urchins to reclaim
>>the
>>metal for a days food.
>
> Would you deny the slum dwellers and street urchins their miserable
> income by blocking or taxing such exports? It can be done, but it
> would create an "unemployment" problem at the bottom end.
It poisons and sometimes maims the kids that are shoveling molten lead in
> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>> I doubt it. This is how it's done:
>>> <http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
>>> It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.
>
>>Problem is; some dodgy characters have found after employee health &
>>welfare
>>costs & environmental precaution, its just cheaper to export the old
>>batteries to a developing country with slums & street urchins to reclaim
>>the
>>metal for a days food.
>
> Would you deny the slum dwellers and street urchins their miserable
> income by blocking or taxing such exports? It can be done, but it
> would create an "unemployment" problem at the bottom end.
their bare feet, and it pollutes large areas of ground & possibly
groundwater.
They also had a "nice little earner" decommissioning scrap warships - which
involved shoveling out literally tons of asbestos lagging.
Unless you think the slum dwellers should be euthanized because they're
poor, they'd probably be better off without this hazard dumped on their
doorstep.
Thick as they are, I doubt this is what the Brussells suits had in mind when
they passed the WEEE directive.
Ian Field
Aug 5, 2012, 4:59:25 PM8/5/12
to
news:2WATr.558117$v24.3...@fx11.am4...
There's still a few slightly slow people that need it drumming in!
William Sommerwerck
Aug 5, 2012, 6:46:39 PM8/5/12
to
> I think I made the point earlier that, as you say,
> tin and lead is a stable compound.
I'm not sure that's correct. Tin and lead can form an alloy in any
proportion. A compound has a specific ratio of elements. An alloy does not.
Rod Speed
Aug 5, 2012, 7:27:55 PM8/5/12
to
Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
Maybe that's what happened to the british empire too ?
There has certainly been a move to lead free pewter for a reason.
> The whole 'lead in the environment' argument makes little sense, apart
> from in a few special cases like lead in gasoline and paint.
No argument there.
> Certainly, lead in solder posed no threat at all,
Particularly when it makes more sense to just not dump
it in normal rubbish dumps than it ever does to ban it.
> and removing it has, in my opinion, been a disastrous retrograde step for
> the 'green' movement in general, and the electronics construction and
> servicing industries in particular.
Yeah, particularly when it produces a lower lifed electronic device.
> Using the stuff leads to increased production costs and energy budgets,
> and often shorter product lives than would otherwise have been the case
> when the mature and reliable technology of leaded solder was used.
Yeah, completely and utterly barking mad.
The most that might make some sense is to keep
dead electronics out of normal rubbish dumps instead.
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>> recycling.
>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>> solvents)
>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>> water.
>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
> pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside
> of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>> recycling.
>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>> solvents)
>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>> water.
>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
> pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside
> of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
Maybe that's what happened to the british empire too ?
There has certainly been a move to lead free pewter for a reason.
> The whole 'lead in the environment' argument makes little sense, apart
> from in a few special cases like lead in gasoline and paint.
> Certainly, lead in solder posed no threat at all,
it in normal rubbish dumps than it ever does to ban it.
> and removing it has, in my opinion, been a disastrous retrograde step for
> the 'green' movement in general, and the electronics construction and
> servicing industries in particular.
> Using the stuff leads to increased production costs and energy budgets,
> and often shorter product lives than would otherwise have been the case
> when the mature and reliable technology of leaded solder was used.
The most that might make some sense is to keep
dead electronics out of normal rubbish dumps instead.
Rod Speed
Aug 5, 2012, 7:31:48 PM8/5/12
to
William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>> Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance
>> with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
>> which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
>> shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
>> the bottom of the pile.
> I find this hard to believe.
I don�t having seen how they dispose of full dead ships.
Absolutely fucking bizarre, like something out of hell.
> A charged lead-acid battery contains plates of both elemental
> lead and some oxidized form of lead. Burning the battery
> would presumably release only the former, a waste of the latter.
Presumably they do something more once the fire has gone out.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery
> A discharged battery contains less elemental lead and more oxidized lead.
> Burning it will not reduce the oxidized lead to elemental lead.
> Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades.
> The cell construction of a car battery makes recycling relatively
> straightforward. Burning the battery is just plain stupid.
But very cheap and easy to do.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery_recycling
> Note the remark about the sometimes-high value of lead-acid batteries.
> In short, I think this story is phony-baloney.
I don�t after having seen the doco on how they deal with dead ships.
Nothing like how its done in the west.
>> Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance
>> with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
>> which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
>> shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
>> the bottom of the pile.
> I find this hard to believe.
Absolutely fucking bizarre, like something out of hell.
> A charged lead-acid battery contains plates of both elemental
> lead and some oxidized form of lead. Burning the battery
> would presumably release only the former, a waste of the latter.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery
> A discharged battery contains less elemental lead and more oxidized lead.
> Burning it will not reduce the oxidized lead to elemental lead.
> Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades.
> The cell construction of a car battery makes recycling relatively
> straightforward. Burning the battery is just plain stupid.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery_recycling
> Note the remark about the sometimes-high value of lead-acid batteries.
> In short, I think this story is phony-baloney.
Nothing like how its done in the west.
Rod Speed
Aug 5, 2012, 7:35:11 PM8/5/12
to
news:jvm6a9$k2s$1...@dont-email.me...
There is when there is no possibility of having the metal reclamation plant.
Michael A. Terrell
Aug 5, 2012, 8:47:04 PM8/5/12
to
Rod Speed wrote:
>
> Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
> roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%28II%29_acetate
Arfa Daily
Aug 5, 2012, 8:57:41 PM8/5/12
to
news:a88dsj...@mid.individual.net...
lead) to sweeten their wine than of lead pipes to deliver water. It's a nice
theory, but that's all it is. Empires decline for many reasons. I think
about the only certainty is that they always do. Lead acetate may have
played some small contributory part in the process, but the decline of the
Roman Empire is pretty well documented, and there were far more significant
reasons for it.
>
> Maybe that's what happened to the british empire too ?
The British Empire declined for various 'modern' reasons, not the least of
which were countries figuring that they could manage their affairs and
positions on the world stage, better than was being done for them by us.
This made them lobby for regaining their independence, and for the most
part, we willingly gave them it back. As I'm sure that anyone with an
interest in world affairs will attest to, the results for some of those
countries, have been less than inspiring.
As to whether lead water pipes caused a problem here, I come from a
generation that grew up in post-war council houses fed with lead pipes, and
I can assure you that the overall intelligence level in kids back then, was
a great deal higher than it is now ...
pewter tankards tend to be used for drinking beer, which is quite acidic at
a pH of around 4.5. The story is that over time, this will react with the
lead in the pewter, causing it to be ingested. This is altogether different
from running pH neutral water through pure lead pipes.
>
>> The whole 'lead in the environment' argument makes little sense, apart
>> from in a few special cases like lead in gasoline and paint.
>
> No argument there.
>
>> Certainly, lead in solder posed no threat at all,
>
> Particularly when it makes more sense to just not dump
> it in normal rubbish dumps than it ever does to ban it.
>
>> and removing it has, in my opinion, been a disastrous retrograde step for
>> the 'green' movement in general, and the electronics construction and
>> servicing industries in particular.
>
> Yeah, particularly when it produces a lower lifed electronic device.
>
>> Using the stuff leads to increased production costs and energy budgets,
>> and often shorter product lives than would otherwise have been the case
>> when the mature and reliable technology of leaded solder was used.
>
> Yeah, completely and utterly barking mad.
>
> The most that might make some sense is to keep
> dead electronics out of normal rubbish dumps instead.
>
And so they are now, and have been for some time under the EU WEEE
directive, paid for by the equipment manufacturers. Which, as you say, makes
the whole thing barking mad ...
Arfa
> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>
>>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>>> recycling.
>
>>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>>> solvents)
>>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>>> water.
>
>>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>
>>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>
>>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>
>>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
>
>> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
>> pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside
>> of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
>
> Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
> roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
I think the theory was more to do with them using lead acetate (sugar of
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>
>>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>>> recycling.
>
>>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>>> solvents)
>>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>>> water.
>
>>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>
>>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>
>>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>
>>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
>
>> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
>> pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside
>> of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
>
> Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
> roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
lead) to sweeten their wine than of lead pipes to deliver water. It's a nice
theory, but that's all it is. Empires decline for many reasons. I think
about the only certainty is that they always do. Lead acetate may have
played some small contributory part in the process, but the decline of the
Roman Empire is pretty well documented, and there were far more significant
reasons for it.
>
> Maybe that's what happened to the british empire too ?
which were countries figuring that they could manage their affairs and
positions on the world stage, better than was being done for them by us.
This made them lobby for regaining their independence, and for the most
part, we willingly gave them it back. As I'm sure that anyone with an
interest in world affairs will attest to, the results for some of those
countries, have been less than inspiring.
As to whether lead water pipes caused a problem here, I come from a
generation that grew up in post-war council houses fed with lead pipes, and
I can assure you that the overall intelligence level in kids back then, was
a great deal higher than it is now ...
>
> There has certainly been a move to lead free pewter for a reason.
This is true, but the reason generally cited for this is that 'traditional'
> There has certainly been a move to lead free pewter for a reason.
pewter tankards tend to be used for drinking beer, which is quite acidic at
a pH of around 4.5. The story is that over time, this will react with the
lead in the pewter, causing it to be ingested. This is altogether different
from running pH neutral water through pure lead pipes.
>
>> The whole 'lead in the environment' argument makes little sense, apart
>> from in a few special cases like lead in gasoline and paint.
>
> No argument there.
>
>> Certainly, lead in solder posed no threat at all,
>
> Particularly when it makes more sense to just not dump
> it in normal rubbish dumps than it ever does to ban it.
>
>> and removing it has, in my opinion, been a disastrous retrograde step for
>> the 'green' movement in general, and the electronics construction and
>> servicing industries in particular.
>
> Yeah, particularly when it produces a lower lifed electronic device.
>
>> Using the stuff leads to increased production costs and energy budgets,
>> and often shorter product lives than would otherwise have been the case
>> when the mature and reliable technology of leaded solder was used.
>
> Yeah, completely and utterly barking mad.
>
> The most that might make some sense is to keep
> dead electronics out of normal rubbish dumps instead.
>
directive, paid for by the equipment manufacturers. Which, as you say, makes
the whole thing barking mad ...
Arfa
Rod Speed
Aug 5, 2012, 8:58:02 PM8/5/12
to
Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote
Nope, its been blamed on both.
The evidence isnt that convincing tho.
The main argument against the lead acetate line is that
the kids didn't drink much wine and would have been
a lot more affected by the lead plumbing and the effect of
lead is much more pronounced in kids for various reasons.
The evidence isnt that convincing tho.
The main argument against the lead acetate line is that
the kids didn't drink much wine and would have been
a lot more affected by the lead plumbing and the effect of
lead is much more pronounced in kids for various reasons.
William Sommerwerck
Aug 5, 2012, 9:13:44 PM8/5/12
to
I've seen a magazine ad from the 1920s praising lead for its use in
water-distribution plumbing.
water-distribution plumbing.
Jeff Liebermann
Aug 5, 2012, 10:47:58 PM8/5/12
to
On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 21:47:22 +0100, "Ian Field"
will be safe and someone else can trash their back yard. Given the
choice between the two options, I don't suppose it would be of any
interest to ask the street urchins if they prefer to be poisoned or
starved to death?
>They also had a "nice little earner" decommissioning scrap warships - which
>involved shoveling out literally tons of asbestos lagging.
Yeah, I saw the horror videos and news reports. Same issue as before.
Lacking any other means of support, if you kill the unsafe scrap
business, the workers starve. I wish I had a solution, but I don't
(and government aid is not a long term solution).
>Unless you think the slum dwellers should be euthanized because they're
>poor, they'd probably be better off without this hazard dumped on their
>doorstep.
Has anyone bothered to ask them?
>Thick as they are, I doubt this is what the Brussells suits had in mind when
>they passed the WEEE directive.
Brussels methods are a bit excessive. They pick an area of interest,
build a crisis, mount a PR campaign, and before anyone has a chance to
do any research, imposes draconian regulations to solve the problem.
Of course, that creates additional problems for Brussels to solve at a
later date. I have yet to see an environmental regulation that does
not involve some level of collateral damage. However, the consensus
seems to be that this is the price of ecological progress. I
generally agree, but often wonder if there's a better way.
<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
>news:hijt18pb6mmo8s2ei...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 19:33:19 +0100, "Ian Field"
>> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I doubt it. This is how it's done:
>>>> <http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
>>>> It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.
>>
>>>Problem is; some dodgy characters have found after employee health &
>>>welfare
>>>costs & environmental precaution, its just cheaper to export the old
>>>batteries to a developing country with slums & street urchins to reclaim
>>>the
>>>metal for a days food.
>>
>> Would you deny the slum dwellers and street urchins their miserable
>> income by blocking or taxing such exports? It can be done, but it
>> would create an "unemployment" problem at the bottom end.
>It poisons and sometimes maims the kids that are shoveling molten lead in
>their bare feet, and it pollutes large areas of ground & possibly
>groundwater.
Ok, so you would let them starve instead. At least the environment
>
>
>"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
>news:hijt18pb6mmo8s2ei...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 19:33:19 +0100, "Ian Field"
>> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I doubt it. This is how it's done:
>>>> <http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
>>>> It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.
>>
>>>Problem is; some dodgy characters have found after employee health &
>>>welfare
>>>costs & environmental precaution, its just cheaper to export the old
>>>batteries to a developing country with slums & street urchins to reclaim
>>>the
>>>metal for a days food.
>>
>> Would you deny the slum dwellers and street urchins their miserable
>> income by blocking or taxing such exports? It can be done, but it
>> would create an "unemployment" problem at the bottom end.
>It poisons and sometimes maims the kids that are shoveling molten lead in
>their bare feet, and it pollutes large areas of ground & possibly
>groundwater.
will be safe and someone else can trash their back yard. Given the
choice between the two options, I don't suppose it would be of any
interest to ask the street urchins if they prefer to be poisoned or
starved to death?
>They also had a "nice little earner" decommissioning scrap warships - which
>involved shoveling out literally tons of asbestos lagging.
Lacking any other means of support, if you kill the unsafe scrap
business, the workers starve. I wish I had a solution, but I don't
(and government aid is not a long term solution).
>Unless you think the slum dwellers should be euthanized because they're
>poor, they'd probably be better off without this hazard dumped on their
>doorstep.
>Thick as they are, I doubt this is what the Brussells suits had in mind when
>they passed the WEEE directive.
build a crisis, mount a PR campaign, and before anyone has a chance to
do any research, imposes draconian regulations to solve the problem.
Of course, that creates additional problems for Brussels to solve at a
later date. I have yet to see an environmental regulation that does
not involve some level of collateral damage. However, the consensus
seems to be that this is the price of ecological progress. I
generally agree, but often wonder if there's a better way.
Rod Speed
Aug 6, 2012, 12:12:30 AM8/6/12
to
Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>>>> recycling.
>>>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>>>> solvents)
>>>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>>>> water.
>>>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>>>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>>>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>>>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
>>> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via
>>> lead pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the
>>> inside of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
>> Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
>> roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
> I think the theory was more to do with them using lead acetate (sugar of
> lead) to sweeten their wine than of lead pipes to deliver water.
It was both. And like I said, the pipes claim is more plausible with kids.
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>>>> recycling.
>>>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>>>> solvents)
>>>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>>>> water.
>>>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>>>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>>>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>>>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
>>> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via
>>> lead pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the
>>> inside of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
>> Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
>> roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
> I think the theory was more to do with them using lead acetate (sugar of
> lead) to sweeten their wine than of lead pipes to deliver water.
> It's a nice theory, but that's all it is.
> Empires decline for many reasons.
are other much more plausible reasons for the empire's decline.
> I think about the only certainty is that they always do.
Tho china did manage much longer than most.
> Lead acetate may have played some small contributory part in the process,
> but the decline of the Roman Empire is pretty well documented, and there
> were far more significant reasons for it.
to a combination of all of the more plausible possibilitys too.
>> Maybe that's what happened to the british empire too ?
> The British Empire declined for various 'modern' reasons,
roman empire declined too, tho there was much less of the
move away to a different physical location of the center of
power seen with the decline of the roman empire.
No real equivalent of the barbarians seen in roman
times, tho some might claim that moslems are just
that. Pretty hard to sustain that claim tho.
> not the least of which were countries figuring that they could manage
> their affairs and positions on the world stage, better than was being done
> for them by us.
They romans werent bankrupted by two world
wars with a great depression between them tho.
> This made them lobby for regaining their independence, and for the most
> part, we willingly gave them it back.
them leaving was never going to work, with both empires.
We never did see the british empire just give up on the worst
of the barbarians and just wall them off and make an obscene
gesture in their general direction like the romans did with
those hairy legged barbarians in dresses to your north tho.
> As I'm sure that anyone with an interest in world affairs will attest to,
> the results for some of those countries, have been less than inspiring.
particularly would claim that they left the old dart for dead tho.
> As to whether lead water pipes caused a problem here, I come from a
> generation that grew up in post-war council houses fed with lead pipes,
> and I can assure you that the overall intelligence level in kids back
> then, was a great deal higher than it is now ...
>> There has certainly been a move to lead free pewter for a reason.
> This is true, but the reason generally cited for this is that
> 'traditional' pewter tankards tend to be used for drinking beer, which is
> quite acidic at a pH of around 4.5. The story is that over time, this will
> react with the lead in the pewter, causing it to be ingested. This is
> altogether different from running pH neutral water through pure lead
> pipes.
Tends to be more alkaline than beer tho, particularly in britain.
And we have also seen a move away from the
use of lead in coloring used in cooking vessels
and other stuff like drinking mugs too.
Very sensibly given the perfectly viable alternatives.
Rod Speed
Aug 6, 2012, 12:13:43 AM8/6/12
to
William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
> I've seen a magazine ad from the 1920s praising
> lead for its use in water-distribution plumbing.
Yeah, it certainly had some real advantages
over the main alternative at that time, iron.
> I've seen a magazine ad from the 1920s praising
> lead for its use in water-distribution plumbing.
over the main alternative at that time, iron.
Rod Speed
Aug 6, 2012, 12:22:12 AM8/6/12
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
> At least the environment will be safe and someone else can
> trash their back yard. Given the choice between the two options,
> I don't suppose it would be of any interest to ask the street
> urchins if they prefer to be poisoned or starved to death?
They haven't starved to death in India for almost half a century now.
>> They also had a "nice little earner" decommissioning scrap warships
>> - which involved shoveling out literally tons of asbestos lagging.
> Yeah, I saw the horror videos and news reports. Same
> issue as before. Lacking any other means of support, if
> you kill the unsafe scrap business, the workers starve.
They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.
We fixed that problem in a different way.
> I wish I had a solution, but I don't
The solution happened quite a long time ago now.
> (and government aid is not a long term solution).
Yes, but the green revolution was.
>> Unless you think the slum dwellers should be euthanized
>> because they're poor, they'd probably be better off
>> without this hazard dumped on their doorstep.
> Has anyone bothered to ask them?
No one ever does, even in the first world.
>> Thick as they are, I doubt this is what the Brussells
>> suits had in mind when they passed the WEEE directive.
> Brussels methods are a bit excessive. They pick an area of interest,
> build a crisis, mount a PR campaign, and before anyone has a chance to
> do any research, imposes draconian regulations to solve the problem.
That's just plain wrong on the research.
> Of course, that creates additional problems for Brussels to solve
> at a later date. I have yet to see an environmental regulation
> that does not involve some level of collateral damage.
Because that isn't even possible.
> However, the consensus seems to be that this is the price of ecological
> progress. I generally agree, but often wonder if there's a better way.
There is certainly a better way than letting some suits decide what needs to
be done.
>>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>>>> I doubt it. This is how it's done:
>>>>> <http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
>>>>> It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.
>>>> Problem is; some dodgy characters have found after employee
>>>> health & welfare costs & environmental precaution, its just
>>>> cheaper to export the old batteries to a developing country
>>>> with slums & street urchins to reclaim the metal for a days food.
>>> Would you deny the slum dwellers and street urchins their miserable
>>> income by blocking or taxing such exports? It can be done, but it
>>> would create an "unemployment" problem at the bottom end.
>> It poisons and sometimes maims the kids that are shoveling molten lead in
>> their bare feet, and it pollutes large areas of ground & possibly
>> groundwater.
> Ok, so you would let them starve instead.
They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.
>>>>> I doubt it. This is how it's done:
>>>>> <http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
>>>>> It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.
>>>> Problem is; some dodgy characters have found after employee
>>>> health & welfare costs & environmental precaution, its just
>>>> cheaper to export the old batteries to a developing country
>>>> with slums & street urchins to reclaim the metal for a days food.
>>> Would you deny the slum dwellers and street urchins their miserable
>>> income by blocking or taxing such exports? It can be done, but it
>>> would create an "unemployment" problem at the bottom end.
>> It poisons and sometimes maims the kids that are shoveling molten lead in
>> their bare feet, and it pollutes large areas of ground & possibly
>> groundwater.
> Ok, so you would let them starve instead.
> At least the environment will be safe and someone else can
> trash their back yard. Given the choice between the two options,
> I don't suppose it would be of any interest to ask the street
> urchins if they prefer to be poisoned or starved to death?
>> They also had a "nice little earner" decommissioning scrap warships
>> - which involved shoveling out literally tons of asbestos lagging.
> Yeah, I saw the horror videos and news reports. Same
> issue as before. Lacking any other means of support, if
> you kill the unsafe scrap business, the workers starve.
We fixed that problem in a different way.
> I wish I had a solution, but I don't
> (and government aid is not a long term solution).
>> Unless you think the slum dwellers should be euthanized
>> because they're poor, they'd probably be better off
>> without this hazard dumped on their doorstep.
> Has anyone bothered to ask them?
>> Thick as they are, I doubt this is what the Brussells
>> suits had in mind when they passed the WEEE directive.
> Brussels methods are a bit excessive. They pick an area of interest,
> build a crisis, mount a PR campaign, and before anyone has a chance to
> do any research, imposes draconian regulations to solve the problem.
> Of course, that creates additional problems for Brussels to solve
> at a later date. I have yet to see an environmental regulation
> that does not involve some level of collateral damage.
> However, the consensus seems to be that this is the price of ecological
> progress. I generally agree, but often wonder if there's a better way.
be done.
Jainee Singh
Aug 6, 2012, 7:58:57 AM8/6/12
to
ungli jigal talks about the story of four years life "Engineering Student"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-MweIUKAig
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Ian Field
Aug 6, 2012, 8:41:39 AM8/6/12
to
news:ncbu189valr29ai1d...@4ax.com...
I'm sure its a very easy decision for them - so long as you don't let them
in on what horrors they're storing up for the future.
in on what horrors they're storing up for the future.
Ian Field
Aug 6, 2012, 8:48:39 AM8/6/12
to
> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>
>>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>>> recycling.
>
>>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>>> solvents)
>>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>>> water.
>
>>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>
>>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>
>>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>
>>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
>
>> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
>> pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside
>> of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
>
> Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
> roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
Making their dinner plates out of pewter probably didn't help - usually at
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>>> tm <No_on...@white-house.gov> wrote
>>>>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote
>
>>>>>>> The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
>>>>>>> recycling.
>
>>>>>> That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
>>>>>> solvents)
>>>>>> leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
>>>>>> water.
>
>>>>> Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
>
>>>> But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
>
>>> But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.
>
>>> Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
>
>> Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
>> pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside
>> of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.
>
> Yebbut, some have blamed the decline of the
> roman empire on their use of lead plumbing pipes.
least 80% tin it contained lead & antimony amongst other things.
Ian Field
Aug 6, 2012, 8:56:27 AM8/6/12
to
news:bEETr.524987$IP4.5...@fx26.am4...
It wasn't just Britain lost its empire, at the end of WW2 the Japs actually
had to protect their former Dutch POWs from their former servants.
had to protect their former Dutch POWs from their former servants.
Ian Field
Aug 6, 2012, 8:58:46 AM8/6/12
to
news:a88ui8...@mid.individual.net...
I seriously doubt the Romans had a minimum age limit for drinking, the
froggies are fairly lax on that even in the present day.
froggies are fairly lax on that even in the present day.
William Sommerwerck
Aug 6, 2012, 10:02:09 AM8/6/12
to
> I seriously doubt the Romans had a minimum age limit
> for drinking, the froggies are fairly lax on that even in the
> present day.
In Francophone countries, children generally drink wine at an early age --
> for drinking, the froggies are fairly lax on that even in the
> present day.
diluted with water. See, for example, the dinner scene at the end of the
original "The Fly". Adult Greeks commonly cut wine with water, apparently to
reduce the chance of intoxication.
Ramsman
Aug 6, 2012, 10:35:32 AM8/6/12
to
consume alcohol is 5. The 18-year-old restriction is for purchasing and
consumption in pubs, off licences, etc. ISTR that 14-year-olds can
consume alcohol with food in restaurants.
--
Peter
Jeff Liebermann
Aug 6, 2012, 10:57:06 AM8/6/12
to
On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 14:22:12 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.
Then why do they continue to work with obviously unsafe materials,
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.
under unsafe conditions, for about $2.40 or $5.80 per day (depending
on which article below you trust)? If there were alternatives to this
kind of work, why is the work still being done?
India and most of the 3rd world countries have come a long way in
education and information distribution in the last 20 years. It's
highly likely they would have seen the news reports on the internet,
read them in the papers, or heard rumors of their inevitable demise
from lead poisoning. Yet, they continue to work with the stuff. While
there might be other reasons, I suspect that lack of alternative work
might be the major reason.
"Ship breaking business a big hit this year" $5.80/day
http://www.instantnews.net/ship-breaking-business-a-big-hit-this-year.aspx
Incidentally, the article has an error. India does not have a minimum
wage.
"India's Shipbreakers Risk Death at $2.40 a Day as Economy Booms"
<http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ao0a9tcrA_0A>
Charles
Aug 6, 2012, 4:03:49 PM8/6/12
to
"Jainee Singh" wrote in message
news:2f90e244-fd02-4845...@googlegroups.com...
Your post might not appear immediately on the server.
Rod Speed
Aug 6, 2012, 11:02:47 PM8/6/12
to
Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote
Me too, but I doubt too many of the kids drank anything
like as much of it as the adults did for various reasons.
> the froggies are fairly lax on that even in the present day.
Yes, but again, they don't drink anything like as much of it as the adults
do.
like as much of it as the adults did for various reasons.
> the froggies are fairly lax on that even in the present day.
do.
Rod Speed
Aug 6, 2012, 11:07:02 PM8/6/12
to
Ramsman <nos...@nowhere.com> wrote
And still happens with beer, shandys etc.
>> See, for example, the dinner scene at the end of the
>> original "The Fly". Adult Greeks commonly cut wine with
>> water, apparently to reduce the chance of intoxication.
> The minimum legal age in the UK (including Scotland?) for children
> to consume alcohol is 5. The 18-year-old restriction is for purchasing
> and consumption in pubs, off licences, etc. ISTR that 14-year-olds
> can consume alcohol with food in restaurants.
There is no minimum legal age in australia. Again,
the legal restriction is on purchase, not consumption.
> William Sommerwerck wrote
>>> I seriously doubt the Romans had a minimum age limit
>>> for drinking, the froggies are fairly lax on that even in the
>>> present day.
>> In Francophone countries, children generally
>> drink wine at an early age -- diluted with water.
That was pretty common in Britain at one time too.
>>> I seriously doubt the Romans had a minimum age limit
>>> for drinking, the froggies are fairly lax on that even in the
>>> present day.
>> In Francophone countries, children generally
>> drink wine at an early age -- diluted with water.
And still happens with beer, shandys etc.
>> See, for example, the dinner scene at the end of the
>> original "The Fly". Adult Greeks commonly cut wine with
>> water, apparently to reduce the chance of intoxication.
> The minimum legal age in the UK (including Scotland?) for children
> to consume alcohol is 5. The 18-year-old restriction is for purchasing
> and consumption in pubs, off licences, etc. ISTR that 14-year-olds
> can consume alcohol with food in restaurants.
the legal restriction is on purchase, not consumption.
Rod Speed
Aug 6, 2012, 11:15:41 PM8/6/12
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
And there is no nice tidy $/day either, the income at
that level depends a hell of a lot on luck on the day etc.
> If there were alternatives to this kind of
> work, why is the work still being done?
Because there are no alternatives for many of them.
That's an entirely separate matter to whether they would
actually starve to death if they werent allowed to collect
the lead from batterys burnt on piles of batterys.
> India and most of the 3rd world countries have come a long way
> in education and information distribution in the last 20 years.
Irrelevant to that particular question of
how many of them starve to death today.
> It's highly likely they would have seen the news reports
> on the internet, read them in the papers, or heard rumors
> of their inevitable demise from lead poisoning.
Those street urchins arent even literate.
> Yet, they continue to work with the stuff.
They continue to run around in the traffic begging
from the cars that have to stop temporarily too.
> While there might be other reasons, I suspect that
> lack of alternative work might be the major reason.
Separate matter entirely to how many
of them actually starve to death today.
> "Ship breaking business a big hit this year" $5.80/day
That number is straight from someone's arse, we can tell from the smell.
> http://www.instantnews.net/ship-breaking-business-a-big-hit-this-year.aspx
> Incidentally, the article has an error. India does not have a minimum
> wage.
Its also no news that shipbreaking has been big business in India for
decades now.
> "India's Shipbreakers Risk Death at $2.40 a Day as Economy Booms"
> <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ao0a9tcrA_0A>
That number is straight from someone's arse, we can tell from the smell.
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.
> Then why do they continue to work with obviously unsafe
> materials, under unsafe conditions, for about $2.40 or $5.80
> per day (depending on which article below you trust)?
Because the living standards are MUCH lower than in the west.
>> They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.
> Then why do they continue to work with obviously unsafe
> materials, under unsafe conditions, for about $2.40 or $5.80
> per day (depending on which article below you trust)?
And there is no nice tidy $/day either, the income at
that level depends a hell of a lot on luck on the day etc.
> If there were alternatives to this kind of
> work, why is the work still being done?
That's an entirely separate matter to whether they would
actually starve to death if they werent allowed to collect
the lead from batterys burnt on piles of batterys.
> India and most of the 3rd world countries have come a long way
> in education and information distribution in the last 20 years.
how many of them starve to death today.
> It's highly likely they would have seen the news reports
> on the internet, read them in the papers, or heard rumors
> of their inevitable demise from lead poisoning.
> Yet, they continue to work with the stuff.
from the cars that have to stop temporarily too.
> While there might be other reasons, I suspect that
> lack of alternative work might be the major reason.
of them actually starve to death today.
> "Ship breaking business a big hit this year" $5.80/day
> http://www.instantnews.net/ship-breaking-business-a-big-hit-this-year.aspx
> Incidentally, the article has an error. India does not have a minimum
> wage.
decades now.
> "India's Shipbreakers Risk Death at $2.40 a Day as Economy Booms"
> <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ao0a9tcrA_0A>
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