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Inverter Generator
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J.B. Wood
Mar 20, 2019, 6:57:47 AM3/20/19
to
Hello, all. This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)? Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine. Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important. Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,
--
J. B. Wood e-mail: arl_1...@hotmail.com
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)? Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine. Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important. Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,
--
J. B. Wood e-mail: arl_1...@hotmail.com
Look165
Mar 20, 2019, 7:14:32 AM3/20/19
to
Might be a PLL locked by the mains.
An independent frequency generator is too much expensive.
Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.
An independent frequency generator is too much expensive.
Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.
Fox's Mercantile
Mar 20, 2019, 7:37:53 AM3/20/19
to
On 3/20/19 6:14 AM, Look165 wrote:
> Might be a PLL locked by the mains.
> An independent frequency generator is too much expensive.
> Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.
That's not how it works.
> Might be a PLL locked by the mains.
> An independent frequency generator is too much expensive.
> Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.
The generator supplies the raw energy to run an inverter.
Locking an inverter to a crystal is simple, and you get
and output frequency with 50 ppm accuracy.
Besides, what good does "phase locked to the mains" do when
it's obvious that you're running a generator because the
mains have gone down.
--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com
Fox's Mercantile
Mar 20, 2019, 7:38:43 AM3/20/19
to
On 3/20/19 6:14 AM, Look165 wrote:
> Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.
Typically, it's a governor, NOT a tachometer.
J.B. Wood
Mar 20, 2019, 10:56:16 AM3/20/19
to
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output voltage
and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the
engine-driven generator portion. The generator's function is to supply
DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC output.
I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter designed
for connection to a motor vehicle battery. So what component(s) control
the inverter generator's output frequency to the required degree of
accuracy? Sincerely,
Look165
Mar 20, 2019, 11:04:11 AM3/20/19
to
If mains are off, WTF wanting a 60Hz frequency ?
Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.
Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.
Pat
Mar 20, 2019, 11:20:49 AM3/20/19
to
On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 16:04:08 +0100, Look165 <loo...@numericable.fr>
wrote:
What's it to you? For many applications, frequency isn't important,
but for others, it can be. If frequency is determined by the the
crystal clock of a microprocessor (my guess, but I really don't know),
it should be easy to get pretty close to 60 Hz and clocks will keep
good time and motors will run at the right speed. Some devices will
run cooler at the right frequency, too.
wrote:
but for others, it can be. If frequency is determined by the the
crystal clock of a microprocessor (my guess, but I really don't know),
it should be easy to get pretty close to 60 Hz and clocks will keep
good time and motors will run at the right speed. Some devices will
run cooler at the right frequency, too.
Fox's Mercantile
Mar 20, 2019, 11:32:16 AM3/20/19
to
On 3/20/19 10:04 AM, Look165 wrote:
> If mains are off, WTF wanting a 60Hz frequency ?
> Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.
You've obviously never had a ferroresonant transformer set
> If mains are off, WTF wanting a 60Hz frequency ?
> Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.
fire to itself because it was dealing with a generator
that was NOT on frequency.
peterw...@gmail.com
Mar 20, 2019, 12:03:52 PM3/20/19
to
You need to see this as two entirely different systems, the output being dependent on the input for raw energy (watts), but not for frequency.
What comes off an automotive *alternator* is speed-to-voltage dependent AC, which goes through a diode-block and regulator and becomes chopped DC. Which, in turn is *smoothed* by the mother of all capacitors called a "Battery".
Which then goes into the Inverter - which does not really care whether it is alternator power, or battery power. It takes the DC at some voltage between ~11 VDC and ~15 VDC, and converts it to AC by its internal magic.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
What comes off an automotive *alternator* is speed-to-voltage dependent AC, which goes through a diode-block and regulator and becomes chopped DC. Which, in turn is *smoothed* by the mother of all capacitors called a "Battery".
Which then goes into the Inverter - which does not really care whether it is alternator power, or battery power. It takes the DC at some voltage between ~11 VDC and ~15 VDC, and converts it to AC by its internal magic.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
J.B. Wood
Mar 20, 2019, 12:11:39 PM3/20/19
to
said that I have no problem with what you stated. Sincerely,
Fox's Mercantile
Mar 20, 2019, 9:35:53 PM3/20/19
to
On 3/20/19 5:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
> I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the time base
> (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
> generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?
It would help if you gave us the model number.
> I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the time base
> (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
> generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?
<https://powerequipment.honda.com/support/shop-manuals>
tabb...@gmail.com
Mar 20, 2019, 9:49:45 PM3/20/19
to
NT
J.B. Wood
Mar 21, 2019, 6:35:28 AM3/21/19
to
probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc) Lacking
knowledge of the internals, you might ust as well have said "They use
whatever they need to use". Not exactly an erudite response. Sincerely,
J.B. Wood
Mar 21, 2019, 6:40:47 AM3/21/19
to
On 3/20/19 9:35 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
> On 3/20/19 5:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
>> I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the time base
>> (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
>> generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?
>
> It would help if you gave us the model number.
> <https://powerequipment.honda.com/support/shop-manuals>
>
>
>
Hello, and that's certainly reasonable but I was asking a specific
> On 3/20/19 5:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
>> I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the time base
>> (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
>> generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?
>
> It would help if you gave us the model number.
> <https://powerequipment.honda.com/support/shop-manuals>
>
>
>
question related to the technology and my guess is that the correct
answer doesn't very that much between manufacturers. I have seen block
wiring diagrams online but not detailed, circuit board schematics.
tabb...@gmail.com
Mar 21, 2019, 7:28:46 AM3/21/19
to
On Thursday, 21 March 2019 10:35:28 UTC, J.B. Wood wrote:
cost, as I said.
> Lacking
> knowledge of the internals, you might ust as well have said "They use
> whatever they need to use". Not exactly an erudite response. Sincerely,
sorry to hear the reality doesn't meet your approval.
> Lacking
> knowledge of the internals, you might ust as well have said "They use
> whatever they need to use". Not exactly an erudite response. Sincerely,
Ralph Mowery
Mar 21, 2019, 10:39:57 AM3/21/19
to
In article <431efc04-6387-45f7...@googlegroups.com>,
tabb...@gmail.com says...
at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
of the inverter.
tabb...@gmail.com says...
>
> > Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
> > probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
> > reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc)
>
> cost, as I said.
>
>
>
The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
> > Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
> > probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
> > reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc)
>
> cost, as I said.
>
>
>
at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
of the inverter.
Fox's Mercantile
Mar 21, 2019, 11:54:55 AM3/21/19
to
Tabby just wants to find fault with everything.
tabb...@gmail.com
Mar 21, 2019, 4:03:01 PM3/21/19
to
On Thursday, 21 March 2019 14:39:57 UTC, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <431efc04-6387-45f7...@googlegroups.com>,
> tabbypurr says...
> In article <431efc04-6387-45f7...@googlegroups.com>,
> tabbypurr says...
> >
> > > Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
> > > probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
> > > reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc)
> >
> > cost, as I said.
> >
> >
> >
>
> The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
> at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
> about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
> of the inverter.
No sensible manufacturer is going to use a crystal` where they can use a ceramic resonator or a silicon oscillator built into the chip. And no sensible mfr is going to pay for a crystal plus a divide by massive number circuit when they can use a low frequency oscillator. If you can't see why there's nothing further for us to discuss.
> > > Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
> > > probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
> > > reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc)
> >
> > cost, as I said.
> >
> >
> >
>
> The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
> at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
> about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
> of the inverter.
Ralph Mowery
Mar 22, 2019, 1:25:51 PM3/22/19
to
In article <efc72184-b65b-478f...@googlegroups.com>,
tabb...@gmail.com says...
clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.
Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.
tabb...@gmail.com says...
>
> >
> > The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
> > at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
> > about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
> > of the inverter.
>
> No sensible manufacturer is going to use a crystal` where they can use a ceramic resonator or a silicon oscillator built into the chip. And no sensible mfr is going to pay for a crystal plus a divide by massive number circuit when they can use a low frequency oscillator. If you can't see why there's nothing further for us to
discuss.
>
>
I guess that I used crystal too loose. Anyway the small processors and
> >
> > The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
> > at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
> > about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
> > of the inverter.
>
> No sensible manufacturer is going to use a crystal` where they can use a ceramic resonator or a silicon oscillator built into the chip. And no sensible mfr is going to pay for a crystal plus a divide by massive number circuit when they can use a low frequency oscillator. If you can't see why there's nothing further for us to
discuss.
>
>
clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.
Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.
Fox's Mercantile
Mar 22, 2019, 1:36:24 PM3/22/19
to
On 3/22/19 12:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> I guess that I used crystal too loose. Anyway the small processors and
> clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.
>
> Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
> any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
> already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
> thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.
I have ordered those for a project.
> I guess that I used crystal too loose. Anyway the small processors and
> clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.
>
> Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
> any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
> already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
> thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.
Certainly cheaper than having crystals made for $18-20 each.
Ralph Mowery
Mar 22, 2019, 5:02:51 PM3/22/19
to
In article <DaydndxaSbmMgAjB...@giganews.com>,
jda...@att.net says...
of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and
minimum of $ 100 for an order. Another in England that is I think about
$ 30 per crystal.
jda...@att.net says...
> Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
> > any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
> > already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
> > thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.
>
> I have ordered those for a project.
> Certainly cheaper than having crystals made for $18-20 each.
>
>
>
>
$ 10 to 20 is inexpensive for a special made crystal now. I only know
> > any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
> > already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
> > thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.
>
> I have ordered those for a project.
> Certainly cheaper than having crystals made for $18-20 each.
>
>
>
>
of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and
minimum of $ 100 for an order. Another in England that is I think about
$ 30 per crystal.
bitrex
Mar 22, 2019, 5:45:47 PM3/22/19
to
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
important for generators that connect to the grid because they have to
sync up to the grid. Most consumer grade generators are not designed to
connect to the grid so what's wrong with 60 hz plus or minus a hz or
two. An RC oscillator can do that. Nowadays most microprocessors have at
least one general-purpose integrated RC clock oscillator.
Appliances that use the 60Hz wall voltage for a timebase for anything
don't really exist anymore not even cheap digital alarm clocks.
bitrex
Mar 22, 2019, 5:50:11 PM3/22/19
to
of scaling down the system clock via a hardware divider to generate a
reference clock for whatever purpose u need
Dave Platt
Mar 22, 2019, 6:08:05 PM3/22/19
to
In article <MPG.36ff177e8...@news.east.earthlink.net>,
Those programmable-frequency oscillators may have distinctly worse
phase-noise characteristics than a real crystal in a good oscillator
circuit. They may not necessarily be suitable for communications
projects or others that are sensitive to phase noise / jitter.
phase-noise characteristics than a real crystal in a good oscillator
circuit. They may not necessarily be suitable for communications
projects or others that are sensitive to phase noise / jitter.
tabb...@gmail.com
Mar 22, 2019, 6:49:32 PM3/22/19
to
NT
Fox's Mercantile
Mar 22, 2019, 6:58:05 PM3/22/19
to
On 3/22/19 4:45 PM, bitrex wrote:
> Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator?
Obviously, you've never seen a ferro-resonant line conditioner set
> Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator?
fire to itself because it was running on 60 Hz.
This was a very real problem with remote radio sites, running on a
generator with Motorola Micro stations.
Ralph Mowery
Mar 22, 2019, 7:31:02 PM3/22/19
to
In article <cIclE.40169$cR2....@fx22.iad>, us...@example.net says...
The main thing is the simple generator must run close to 3600 rpm to
generate the desired voltage which is also generated at 60 hz.
A few cycles one way or the other does not mater, but the voltage might.
>
> Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator? It's
> important for generators that connect to the grid because they have to
> sync up to the grid. Most consumer grade generators are not designed to
> connect to the grid so what's wrong with 60 hz plus or minus a hz or
> two. An RC oscillator can do that. Nowadays most microprocessors have at
> least one general-purpose integrated RC clock oscillator.
>
> Appliances that use the 60Hz wall voltage for a timebase for anything
> don't really exist anymore not even cheap digital alarm clocks.
>
>
Most home devices not counting clocks are not that frequency sensitive.
> Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator? It's
> important for generators that connect to the grid because they have to
> sync up to the grid. Most consumer grade generators are not designed to
> connect to the grid so what's wrong with 60 hz plus or minus a hz or
> two. An RC oscillator can do that. Nowadays most microprocessors have at
> least one general-purpose integrated RC clock oscillator.
>
> Appliances that use the 60Hz wall voltage for a timebase for anything
> don't really exist anymore not even cheap digital alarm clocks.
>
>
The main thing is the simple generator must run close to 3600 rpm to
generate the desired voltage which is also generated at 60 hz.
A few cycles one way or the other does not mater, but the voltage might.
Ralph Mowery
Mar 22, 2019, 7:32:05 PM3/22/19
to
In article <502gmf-...@coop.radagast.org>, dpl...@coop.radagast.org
says...
a spectrum analizer just to see.
Probably not very useful if a clean signal is desired, but fine if just
a close frequency is needed for things like a microprocessor clock.
says...
>
> >$ 10 to 20 is inexpensive for a special made crystal now. I only know
> >of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and
> >minimum of $ 100 for an order. Another in England that is I think about
> >$ 30 per crystal.
>
> Those programmable-frequency oscillators may have distinctly worse
> phase-noise characteristics than a real crystal in a good oscillator
> circuit. They may not necessarily be suitable for communications
> projects or others that are sensitive to phase noise / jitter.
>
>
>
>
They are 'dirty' compaired to a crystal. I have played with a couple on
> >$ 10 to 20 is inexpensive for a special made crystal now. I only know
> >of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and
> >minimum of $ 100 for an order. Another in England that is I think about
> >$ 30 per crystal.
>
> Those programmable-frequency oscillators may have distinctly worse
> phase-noise characteristics than a real crystal in a good oscillator
> circuit. They may not necessarily be suitable for communications
> projects or others that are sensitive to phase noise / jitter.
>
>
>
>
a spectrum analizer just to see.
Probably not very useful if a clean signal is desired, but fine if just
a close frequency is needed for things like a microprocessor clock.
bitrex
Mar 22, 2019, 10:25:15 PM3/22/19
to
the engine and drivetrain spin at whatever rpm is convenient for the
form-factor vs. output power vs. noise level requirements etc. and it's
converted to DC then chopped and converted to line frequency AC again as
in a car battery inverter-type dealie.
Ralph Mowery
Mar 22, 2019, 11:15:47 PM3/22/19
to
In article <cOglE.149856$j75....@fx36.iad>, us...@example.net says...
are less expensive than the inverter type. The inverter type engines
run at whatever rpm it takes to produce the power for the inverter part.
The speed control for them is a simple goveror set for 3600 rpm. I have
two of them rated around 5 kw and one of the $89 Harbor Freight ones
that operate that way.
>
> >
> > Most home devices not counting clocks are not that frequency sensitive.
> > The main thing is the simple generator must run close to 3600 rpm to
> > generate the desired voltage which is also generated at 60 hz.
> > A few cycles one way or the other does not mater, but the voltage might.
> >
>
> I don't think most modern consumer portable generators operate that way,
> the engine and drivetrain spin at whatever rpm is convenient for the
> form-factor vs. output power vs. noise level requirements etc. and it's
> converted to DC then chopped and converted to line frequency AC again as
> in a car battery inverter-type dealie.
>
>
Most home portable generators are direct drive from the engine. They
> >
> > Most home devices not counting clocks are not that frequency sensitive.
> > The main thing is the simple generator must run close to 3600 rpm to
> > generate the desired voltage which is also generated at 60 hz.
> > A few cycles one way or the other does not mater, but the voltage might.
> >
>
> I don't think most modern consumer portable generators operate that way,
> the engine and drivetrain spin at whatever rpm is convenient for the
> form-factor vs. output power vs. noise level requirements etc. and it's
> converted to DC then chopped and converted to line frequency AC again as
> in a car battery inverter-type dealie.
>
>
are less expensive than the inverter type. The inverter type engines
run at whatever rpm it takes to produce the power for the inverter part.
The speed control for them is a simple goveror set for 3600 rpm. I have
two of them rated around 5 kw and one of the $89 Harbor Freight ones
that operate that way.
tabb...@gmail.com
Mar 23, 2019, 10:10:05 AM3/23/19
to
On Friday, 22 March 2019 22:58:05 UTC, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
> On 3/22/19 4:45 PM, bitrex wrote:
> > Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator?
>
>
> Obviously, you've never seen a ferro-resonant line conditioner set
> fire to itself because it was running on 60 Hz.
>
> This was a very real problem with remote radio sites, running on a
> generator with Motorola Micro stations.
CVTs are obsolete and not used in homes anyway. That some things don't always survive portable gen power is not news. Portable gens have never had accurate frequency control, or accurate anything control.
> On 3/22/19 4:45 PM, bitrex wrote:
> > Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator?
>
>
> Obviously, you've never seen a ferro-resonant line conditioner set
> fire to itself because it was running on 60 Hz.
>
> This was a very real problem with remote radio sites, running on a
> generator with Motorola Micro stations.
NT
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