What to measure when adjusting clutch pedal bolt?

[Mad Roger]

Need help figuring out what to MEASURE when adjusting a self-adjusting
clutch pedal bolt.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3835507bolt.jpg

I've adjusted the bolt all the way in, half way, and all the way out:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8057083bolt2.jpg

No matter whether I adjust the bolt all the way inside the clutch pedal
(turning it CCW facing the pedal like a foot would).

Or if I turn the adjusting bolt all the way out of the clutch pedal
(turning it CW).
Or halfway between...

I don't feel any "slop" anywhere (e.g., between the rounded tip and the
master cylinder piston cup). The *feel* of the clutch pedal engagement
changes drastically between all the way in and all the way out though.

But clutch pedal feel is not the question (mainly because I don't know how
it "should" feel). So the question is only about what to measure, and how.

The question is only about WHAT to measure with a ruler and how to measure
it.

[Oren]

Why is it you think the clutch pedal "feel" is not an aspect of the
adjustment? The throw out bearing needs to release from the clutch
plate in the bell housing. You can't adjust it by a ruler. You need
a little slop in the pedal so the plate is not always engaged at the
risk of burning the plate.

...at least back in the day. Two cents.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

You want about an inch of play AT THE PEDAL regardless of anything else, unless it is a very weird design.

A self adjusting one should do it automatically when you put your foot under the clutch pedal and pull up instead of pushing down.You didn't mention make and model of the car so that is not for sure, but most of them are like that.

Such things can be found out online sometimes. There may be a youtube on how to do it, or you might get lucky and find a manual for it. Sometimes auto parts stores also put out the information.

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

The rod (bolt) needs to be adjusted so that there is about 0.1" clearance
between the end of the rod and the clutch master cylinder piston with the
pedal 'up' (not pressing it). You can't see the piston or where the rod
contacts it, so you have to do it by feel. Push the pedal gently by hand*
until the space is taken up. If you can't feel any space, you might have it
too tight. Back the rod out of the master cylinder until the clearance is
obvious and then gradually extend it. When it's correct, tighten the jamb
nut to keep it in place.

The idea is that the clutch master cylinder has to be able to 'relax' all
the way rearward when not pushing on the clutch. At the last point in it's
travel, the piston opens up the port to the fluid reservoir and lets fluid
in to make up for leakage.

*Feeling the rod clearance is easier by hand. Your foot isn't sensitive
enough to judge the small amount of play.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Never put off till run-time what you can do at compile-time. -- D. Gries

[Mad Roger]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 13:13:56 -0800,
Oren wrote:

> Why is it you think the clutch pedal "feel" is not an aspect of the
> adjustment? The throw out bearing needs to release from the clutch
> plate in the bell housing. You can't adjust it by a ruler. You need
> a little slop in the pedal so the plate is not always engaged at the
> risk of burning the plate.
>
> ...at least back in the day. Two cents.

It's not my vehicle, and the "feel" stinks no matter what position it's in.

What changes is that it engages early, or late, but not in a way that I
like either way.

So I can't adjust it by feel because there is no position that feels right
to me.

Therefore, I just want to adjust it by the book.

If only I knew what to measure as I think it's for a millimeter or two of
'slop' between the rounded end of the bolt and the master cylinder piston
cup.

But I don't feel that slop in any case.
And I don't know where to measure it either.

Hence the question.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"But I don't feel that slop in any case. "

You might have a sprung (defective) pressure plate. Been known to happen.

[Xeno]

On 27/01/2018 1:47 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 13:13:56 -0800,
> Oren wrote:
>
>> Why is it you think the clutch pedal "feel" is not an aspect of the
>> adjustment? The throw out bearing needs to release from the clutch
>> plate in the bell housing. You can't adjust it by a ruler. You need
>> a little slop in the pedal so the plate is not always engaged at the
>> risk of burning the plate.
>>
>> ...at least back in the day. Two cents.
>
> It's not my vehicle, and the "feel" stinks no matter what position it's in.

The feel doesn't stink just because *you* don't like it.

>
> What changes is that it engages early, or late, but not in a way that I
> like either way.

It will either take up early or it will take up late. It cannot do both,
either one or the other. Clutches simply cannot work the way you are
imagining they do.

>
> So I can't adjust it by feel because there is no position that feels right
> to me.

This is a situation where pedancy will stuff you up right royally.

>
> Therefore, I just want to adjust it by the book.

Do you have the *book* handy? If not, you are lost.

The method used to adjust a clutch will depend entirely on the mechanism
employed. There are 3 general possibilities in common use; hydraulic,
cable, mechanical linkage. Each of those will have variants and the
differences will make a difference to how and where it is adjusted.

Best you get to it and RTFM.

>
> If only I knew what to measure as I think it's for a millimeter or two of
> 'slop' between the rounded end of the bolt and the master cylinder piston
> cup.
>
> But I don't feel that slop in any case.

If you can't feel the play, it doesn't have any.

If it is meant to have play, then fix it so it does.

> And I don't know where to measure it either.

For master cylinder clearance - At the pedal pushrod in most cases.
For slave cylinder clearance - at the slave cylinder in most cases.
>
> Hence the question.
>


--

Xeno

[Mad Roger]

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 02:47:48 -0000 (UTC),
Mad Roger wrote:

> I agree that even my hand isn't sensitive enough, so a foot will never do
> it.

I think the problem is mostly that I don't feel any free play.

Here's a screenshot of the manual process.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2707505pedal1.png

And the spec.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4030196pedal2.png

But you have to *feel* that slop in order to measure it.
I don't know why I don't feel any slop.

[Look165]

Normally, there should be about 1/2 inch between the resting position of
the pedal annd its thrust position (completey up. This is for preventing
continuous fricton inside the clutch.

Mad Roger a écrit :

[pf...@aol.com]

The Troll is back. Please don't feed the troll.

Please advise the troll to do the following:

a) Purchase and read the owner's manual for the vehicle in question.
b) Re-read the relevant sections of the manual until well understood (unlikely, even if possible).
c) Then, find a competent mechanic to execute the proper procedure utilizing the correct means and methods, with the correct parts.

None of the above is likely to happen, so this waste of air and water would prefer to take its detritus into an electronics group so as to discuss clutch bolts. How apt!

There are no 'generic' clutches. What is correct for an old VW with a clutch cable will not be correct for a BMW with a hydraulic clutch, nor a DSG with dual electronic clutches.

As it has carefully concealed the age, make and model involved, it has decided to waste the time of actual people by providing deliberately misleading, limited and incomplete information as a means to start on a 200+ post thread by splitting more and more hairs.

If the rest of you feel that this is a productive use of your time, have at!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Xeno]

On 27/01/2018 10:52 PM, Look165 wrote:
> Normally, there should be about 1/2 inch between the resting position of
> the pedal annd its thrust position (completey up. This is for preventing
> continuous fricton inside the clutch.

It is actually there to guarantee that the piston can fully return to
its stop (circlip usually) and fully uncover the compensating port
allowing pressure in the slave cylinder and lines to release and fluid
to return to the master cylinder reservoir. If this does not happen, the
system may pump up and slave cylinder will not return thus not applying
or only partially applying the clutch. The most common symptom of this,
apart from a lack of pedal clearance, is a clutch that slips.

Also, it is wise not to dick with the pedal height adjustment as you may
end up with more MC travel than previously existed. That can result in a
torn or damaged primary seal if the piston is now traveling over an
unworn part of the cylinder or, worse, a part of the cylinder that has
corrosion buildup on the unworn part.

Frankly, if Roger needs to find out how to do the job from advice here,
he'd be well advised to hand the task over to someone with a clue. This
is basic stuff, hardly high tech, and he's *struggling*.

>
> Mad Roger a écrit :
>> Need help figuring out what to MEASURE when adjusting a self-adjusting
>> clutch pedal bolt.
>> http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3835507bolt.jpg
>>
>> I've adjusted the bolt all the way in, half way, and all the way out:
>> http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8057083bolt2.jpg
>>
>> No matter whether I adjust the bolt all the way inside the clutch pedal
>> (turning it CCW facing the pedal like a foot would).
>>
>> Or if I turn the adjusting bolt all the way out of the clutch pedal
>> (turning it CW).
>> Or halfway between...
>>
>> I don't feel any "slop" anywhere (e.g., between the rounded tip and the
>> master cylinder piston cup). The *feel* of the clutch pedal engagement
>> changes drastically between all the way in and all the way out though.
>>
>> But clutch pedal feel is not the question (mainly because I don't know
>> how
>> it "should" feel). So the question is only about what to measure, and
>> how.
>>
>> The question is only about WHAT to measure with a ruler and how to
>> measure
>> it.
>>
>

--

Xeno

[Mad Roger]

On Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:16:13 +1100,
Xeno wrote:

> Frankly, if Roger needs to find out how to do the job from advice here,
> he'd be well advised to hand the task over to someone with a clue. This
> is basic stuff, hardly high tech, and he's *struggling*.

Here's a screenshot of the manual process.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2707505pedal1.png

And the spec.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4030196pedal2.png

The measurement is about 160 mm in the resting position.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6041860bolt3.jpg

Pushing gently with my finger, I can measure the lower position.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8845966bolt4.jpg

This #2 measurement seemed to be about 5mm but my only confusion left is
that these two things seem to be the same thing:
A. Pedal freeplay
B. Pushrod play

The reason they seem to be the same thing is that, with one finger on the
pedal, you can push the pedal down about 5mm until you hear and feel the
pushrod hit the master cylinder piston cup.

I can't yet distinguish between the two (freeplay & pushrod play) with my
finger or measurement at the top of the rubber part of the pedal position.

[Oren]

...oh Bubba. Bless your heart. See if I can figger a Redneck
Swampbilly method.

How are you tryin' to "feel" the adjustment of the clutch pedal?

Are you using your hand or using your foot?

Have you put the car in gear?

Rocked the car back and forth to see if the adjustment is to loose or
about just right?

Will the car jalopy down the road?

Does it sit there in gear and not move?

Maybe you are being sensitive. I got more ideas ;)
--
"Dodgeball in Burkas" -- Greg Gutfeld

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:37:44 +1100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:

Better than 90% of vehicles with standard transmissions today have
NO MANUAL ADJUSTMENT PROVISIONS.

Mad MaX is an IDIOT.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 28 Jan 2018 00:16:13 +1100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:

>On 27/01/2018 10:52 PM, Look165 wrote:
>> Normally, there should be about 1/2 inch between the resting position of
>> the pedal annd its thrust position (completey up. This is for preventing
>> continuous fricton inside the clutch.
>
>It is actually there to guarantee that the piston can fully return to
>its stop (circlip usually) and fully uncover the compensating port
>allowing pressure in the slave cylinder and lines to release and fluid
>to return to the master cylinder reservoir. If this does not happen, the
>system may pump up and slave cylinder will not return thus not applying
>or only partially applying the clutch. The most common symptom of this,
>apart from a lack of pedal clearance, is a clutch that slips.
>
>Also, it is wise not to dick with the pedal height adjustment as you may
>end up with more MC travel than previously existed. That can result in a
>torn or damaged primary seal if the piston is now traveling over an
>unworn part of the cylinder or, worse, a part of the cylinder that has
>corrosion buildup on the unworn part.
>
>Frankly, if Roger needs to find out how to do the job from advice here,
>he'd be well advised to hand the task over to someone with a clue. This
>is basic stuff, hardly high tech, and he's *struggling*.

The poor lad reminds me of the Irisnman I shared the house with in
Zambia. Anything more complex than a retractable ball-point pen had
him totally flummoxed. To keep his level of frustration below the
point of "blowing smoke" he was restricted to using Bic stick pens
(pencils were no good because a pencil sharpener was beyond his level
of comprehension)

[Xeno]

Yep, manufacturing tolerances have improved out of sight in recent years.

--

Xeno

[Xeno]

Yep, had the same experience in Indonesia - with a South African
co-worker what's more.

>
>>>
>>> Mad Roger a écrit :
>>>> Need help figuring out what to MEASURE when adjusting a self-adjusting
>>>> clutch pedal bolt.
>>>> http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3835507bolt.jpg
>>>>
>>>> I've adjusted the bolt all the way in, half way, and all the way out:
>>>> http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8057083bolt2.jpg
>>>>
>>>> No matter whether I adjust the bolt all the way inside the clutch pedal
>>>> (turning it CCW facing the pedal like a foot would).
>>>>
>>>> Or if I turn the adjusting bolt all the way out of the clutch pedal
>>>> (turning it CW).
>>>> Or halfway between...
>>>>
>>>> I don't feel any "slop" anywhere (e.g., between the rounded tip and the
>>>> master cylinder piston cup). The *feel* of the clutch pedal engagement
>>>> changes drastically between all the way in and all the way out though.
>>>>
>>>> But clutch pedal feel is not the question (mainly because I don't know
>>>> how
>>>> it "should" feel). So the question is only about what to measure, and
>>>> how.
>>>>
>>>> The question is only about WHAT to measure with a ruler and how to
>>>> measure
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>

--

Xeno

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 28 Jan 2018 11:19:41 +1100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au>

It's got very little to do with "manufacturer's tollerances" -
althought they ARE a lot better. The main thing is they are "self
adjusting"

[Tekkie®]

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

I wonder if this is the clutch he "replaced"?

He doesn't know the olde heat and bend the rod trick... maybe use some all
thread and burn an adjustment hole in the floorboard.

--
Tekkie

[Tekkie®]

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

> The poor lad reminds me of the Irisnman I shared the house with in
> Zambia. Anything more complex than a retractable ball-point pen had
> him totally flummoxed. To keep his level of frustration below the
> point of "blowing smoke" he was restricted to using Bic stick pens
> (pencils were no good because a pencil sharpener was beyond his level
> of comprehension)
>

Sharp as a marble aye?

--
Tekkie

[Ron D.]

Too much free play causes the clutch pedal to "bounce". e.g. The difference between the pedal at the up stop and start of engagement.

Push rod play is contact to resistance.

A bad throwout bearing will totally mess up the feel you expect. It will feel sloppy.