Any experts on "Learning Remote Controls"?

[Bob F]

I have a JVC KT-HDPK1 add-on HD radio tuner I removed from my car. I Have hooked
it up indoors to my stereo received so I can get HD radio channels on my old
receiver.

I have a Radio Shack 15-100 8-in-one learning remote. I used the remote from the
JVC HD tuner to program the learning remote AUX device keys on the RS 15-100,
and it claimed to learn them all fine. However, it does not operate the JVC HD
tuner at all. None of the programmed buttons do anything.

The 15-100 remote showed the AUX device as SONY AUX, before and after the
programming. I didn't change this, assuming that it would not have codes built
in for this device. Does a JVC device have to be selected for the remote to
operate a JVC car tuner, or is this irrelevant? Does anyone have any ideas how I
can get this working?

If I get working codes into this remote, then I can use the JP1 interface to
store them on my PC for future remote control programming.

[N_Cook]

Try the learning at a different separation of original and learner ?

[Bob F]

It doesn't learn at anything over 2". One of the reasons I'd like to get this
working is that the "car" remote for this unit doesn't work more than 2 feet
from the unit.

[Bruce Esquibel]

Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It doesn't learn at anything over 2". One of the reasons I'd like to get this
> working is that the "car" remote for this unit doesn't work more than 2 feet
> from the unit.

This is just a stupid comment that crossed my mind, but are you sure the
remote for the radio is actually an infared and not rf or bluetooth or
something else?

Just seems to me if it's a car radio, the remote would be for like gluing
to the steering wheel or some place that if the radio was out of reach,
which infared wouldn't work well. Plus it seems like it would work piss
poor if the sun was beating down on the dashboard.

No explanation why the RS remote said it was learning the keys if this is
the case but to me, within a car interior, rf would be a better answer than
infared.

-bruce
b...@ripco.com

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"but are you sure the
>remote for the radio is actually an infared and not rf or bluetooth or
>something else? "

Good point. Very good point. wouild it seem logical that someone wants to control their car stereo from outside the car ? that would make infrared a bad choice. And you know they have those competitions. I mean they load the car up with 8 kW of power and more woofers than a Genesis concert, but might still hook to the factory head umit for the source.

You know, "BOOM MUFUKAS BOOM MUFUKAS BOOM MUFUKAS".

Anyway, I think it very possible it is RF for that reason. Like the alar thing or remote start. Infrared would not be the best choice for them either.

Which brings us to finding an RF universal remote. Good luck.

[Bob F]

The remote clearly has a LED on the end, and the LED does not show visable light
when operated. So I'm pretty sure it's IR

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 08:33:45 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>It doesn't learn at anything over 2". One of the reasons I'd like to get this
>working is that the "car" remote for this unit doesn't work more than 2 feet
>from the unit.

The data sheet at:
<http://support.jvc.com/consumer/product.jsp?modelId=MODL028210&pathId=149&page=2&archive=true>
says "Includes wireless Remote control..." which generally means RF
remote control. I don't think it's IR, but it's possible.

Find a digital camera and aim it at the remote. If you can see the IR
LED flash when a button is pushed, it's IR. If not, it's RF.
<http://www.instructables.com/id/A-FREE-way-to-check-infrared-remote-controls/>

According to the manual, the remote is an RM-RK71:
<http://resources.jvc.com/Resources/00/01/16/MA370ien.pdf>
but there's no info on whether it's IR or RF.

In my very limited experience, IR remotes are not common in vehicles
because of the problems aligning the remote emitter with the radio IR
sensor, problems with solar overload, and potential driver distraction
trying to orient the remote. RF remotes do not have this problem.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Bob F]

I did the digital camera test, and do see a white light through the camera when
the buttons are pushed. So, again, I think it is IR.

[mog...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 8:25:07 AM UTC-4, Bruce Esquibel wrote in sci.electronics.repair:
> Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It doesn't learn at anything over 2". One of the reasons I'd like to get this
> > working is that the "car" remote for this unit doesn't work more than 2 feet
> > from the unit.
>
>This is just a stupid comment that crossed my mind, but are you
> sure the remote for the radio is actually an infared and not
> rf or bluetooth or something else?

And more importantly, would he even be able to tell without using a microscope?

[Bob F]

Would an LED on the end of the remote that shows light only through a digital
camera when the unit is operated be a clue? No visable light using only my eyes.
That plus the fact that the learning remote said "success" with each key I asked
it to learn.

The problem is that the learning remote does not seem to operate the device at
all.

A new data item. The JVC remote causes my computer IR receivers to flash with
each keypress, again indicating IR transmission. Interestingly, it works across
the room just fine, which suggests that it has a strong signal, and the JVC
receiver must be desensitized. Trying my learning remote very close to the JVC
receiver does not help. Perhaps the JVC remote is particularly strong, even
though tiny with a small button cell battery.

Do learning remotes transmit exactly the same signal it "learned" no matter
which device it is selected for? I programmed buttons associated with the "AUX"
button, which by default is a Sony unknown something.

[mrob...@att.net]

Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a Radio Shack 15-100 8-in-one learning remote. I used the
> remote from the JVC HD tuner to program the learning remote AUX
> device keys on the RS 15-100, and it claimed to learn them all fine.
> However, it does not operate the JVC HD tuner at all. None of the
> programmed buttons do anything.

Did you program the learning remote indoors? Was there a CFL or LED
lamp in the vicinity?

The reason I ask is that CFLs and LED lamps tend to have switching
power supplies, which sometimes run at frequencies close to the remote
control's modulation frequency; the light output will change very
slightly at a few dozen kHz. I have seen reports of certain CFLs
interfering with remote controls; I haven't seen reports on LEDs doing
the same, but LED lamps are not exactly common yet.

It could be that the learning remote "saw" some junk from a CFL or LED
lamp, which it took to be the desired signal, and so it indicated
"learned OK".

You might retry programming a few buttons either in the daytime - maybe
with a piece of paper, rag, etc over the "business end" of both remotes
to cut the ambient light - or at night, with only incandescent lamps (or
a candle!) to light the room. If those buttons work, then reprogram the
rest of them.

Matt Roberds

[Bruce Esquibel]

Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The problem is that the learning remote does not seem to operate the device at
> all.

Ok, let's say it's 100% an infared remote.

The problem here is, except for getting another learning remote and trying
that, I can't see where else you can go with this problem. It's not like you
can "fix" the RS remote to do anything differently.

Unrelated to this, back in the late 90's I bought a Yamaha surround sound
receiver, high end (something 3090) and also had a Phillips touch screen
remote (pronto) and that receiver was a bitch to program into the remote.

It said it learned all the key presses I wanted it to learn but fuck-all
when you tried to use it. Besides some keys not working at all (similar to
your problem), others did not do what they were supposed to do. Even like
volume up, if you tapped the button it was fine, press and hold would raise
it to a certain point, then it would decide to switch the input selected.

The on/off had a direct on, a direct off and "toggle". That too, the toggle
was fine to use but the directs for on and off was a crap shoot.

What I'm getting at, being the remote was 100% with various tv's, dvd
players, vhs machine, laserdisc players and just had a headache with the
Yamaha, there really is no other fault besides it.

The OEM remote for the Yamaha had like 105 different functions, I'm guess
they used some creative coding for all that to fit.

Similar to your HD tuner, maybe the idea of IR having a problem in such a
place as a car, the company used some creative coding for it to work where
it doesn't follow the norm for remotes. I know that back in the 80's there
was supposed to be some standardization, preamble with a max of 16 bits,
padded zeroes at the end or beginning that all companies were supposed to
follow.

Was just to sort things out so the vcr remote didn't do anything to the tv
or the dvd remote turn on your microwave or something.

My point is, maybe since it was for automotive use, they didn't have to
follow the consumer guidelines for household products, figuring it would be
unlikely to have two IR devices in a car and just came up with a IR pattern
that worked in such a harsh environment.

Like I said at the beginning, the tie breaker is just get your hands on
another learning remote and see if it can learn anything. If not, what you
want to do is just not going to be done. If it does work, it's the RS remote
but then you are where you are now, it's just not going to work and there
isn't anything to do about it except replace it.

-bruce
b...@ripco.com

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 07:54:48 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I did the digital camera test, and do see a white light through the camera when
>the buttons are pushed. So, again, I think it is IR.

OK, it's IR.

Do you have an oscilloscope? Connect an IR photodiode or red LED to
the scope, point the remote at the diode, and watch the waveform
produced by the remote control. Then, compare the waveforms and
timing between the original remote, and the Radio Shack learning
remote.

Also check that the carrier frequencies are the same. I think the
usual is 38 KHz, but there are other frequencies in use:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_IR#Technical_information>
If the two remotes are on different carrier frequencies, there's your
problem.

Note: I would normally suggest you use a PC based oscilloscope, but
unless you have a quality 96KHz or 192KHz sound card, you're not going
to see anything with the typical 44KHz card. For software, I suggest:
<http://www.sillanumsoft.org/prod01.htm>

[Bob F]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 07:54:48 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I did the digital camera test, and do see a white light through the
>> camera when the buttons are pushed. So, again, I think it is IR.
>
> OK, it's IR.
>
> Do you have an oscilloscope? Connect an IR photodiode or red LED to
> the scope, point the remote at the diode, and watch the waveform
> produced by the remote control. Then, compare the waveforms and
> timing between the original remote, and the Radio Shack learning
> remote.
>
> Also check that the carrier frequencies are the same. I think the
> usual is 38 KHz, but there are other frequencies in use:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_IR#Technical_information>
> If the two remotes are on different carrier frequencies, there's your
> problem.
>
> Note: I would normally suggest you use a PC based oscilloscope, but
> unless you have a quality 96KHz or 192KHz sound card, you're not going
> to see anything with the typical 44KHz card. For software, I suggest:
> <http://www.sillanumsoft.org/prod01.htm>

Great Idea! I do have an oscilloscope. I should have a photodiode too among my
collection. I just have to track one down. It might take a few days, but I
definately will have to check this out.

Part of my media system includes a USB-UIRT. I wonder if that could be useful in
this research. It's been so long since I set it up, I just can't remember what
capabilities/utilities it has.

[Bob F]

Very good commentary. I should have other learning remotes, and will have to try
another. Thanks.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 10:11:01 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Great Idea! I do have an oscilloscope.

More details:
<http://pscmpf.blogspot.com/2009/12/decoding-ir-remote-control.html>
<http://www.analysir.com/blog/2014/05/04/silver-bullet-oscilloscope-infrared-receiver/>
<http://www.analysir.com/blog/2014/03/27/infrared-receivers-signal-lag/>
<http://www.sbprojects.com/knowledge/ir/index.php>

>I should have a photodiode too among my
>collection. I just have to track one down. It might take a few days, but I
>definately will have to check this out.

I was going to try it myself first, but ran into the same problem. I
know that I have some LED's in my mess, but I can't find any. If
desperate, you can probably find an IR LED and photo xsistor inside an
optical interrupter.

>Part of my media system includes a USB-UIRT. I wonder if that could be useful in
>this research. It's been so long since I set it up, I just can't remember what
>capabilities/utilities it has.

Yep, that should work if the decoding hardware doesn't get in the way.
However, the LED trick is faster, easier, cheaper, better, etc.

[Tim R]

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 5:55:03 PM UTC-4, mrob...@att.net wrote:
>
> Did you program the learning remote indoors? Was there a CFL or LED
> lamp in the vicinity?
>
> The reason I ask is that CFLs and LED lamps tend to have switching
> power supplies, which sometimes run at frequencies close to the remote
> control's modulation frequency; the light output will change very
> slightly at a few dozen kHz. I have seen reports of certain CFLs
> interfering with remote controls; I haven't seen reports on LEDs doing
> the same, but LED lamps are not exactly common yet.

CFLs did do this.

I stayed at a hotel that had just replaced all the lamp incandescents with CFLs, and none of the remote controls worked.

I complained, and they explained that it was a problem with harmonics, and they were going to have to spend hundreds of thousands on new transformers.

That didn't make any sense to me. I hung a towel in front of the light so it didn't shine on the sensor, and I had no trouble getting my remote to work.