does a fake LOPT even exist?

[frank]

Hi all,
I'm trying to keep an old TV alive, it's an old 14CT2306/20S from Philips
and it's the only think that fits into a furniture space in my parent's
house, so that will not be replaced. I'm keeping it alive for 30+ years now.
The LOPT developed some leaks in the past years but they where on the external
side so I was always able to scratch the hole zones and put some epoxy that
cured the leak. Lately it developed a nasty leak to the internal core, so
it's time to find a replacement for it.
I ordered an HR-6098 LOPT on ebay based on diemen HR equivalence and when
it arrived, I noticed that it lacks pin 1.
On the diemen site, the HR-6098 indeed has pin 1, schematics and actual
chassis both agree that pin 1 is needed as horizontal signal going into
an LM339 comparator, so I think I can't put this transformer in place
of the original one.
The ebay seller just said that since it's stamped with the correct name,
it must be it and I'm just not able to install it correctly :)
Is there any chance that the seller is right or my only option is asking
for a refund via PayPal?
What could be going on here? I wouldn't believe it's viable to make
fake LOPT anyway. Maybe a mis-labeled unit that was so similar to the
rigth one?

Thanks
Frank

[ohg...@gmail.com]

Could be a mistake, or it could be intentional. IIRC, Diemen uses only a few common case molds so a lot of their LOPTs (we call them flybacks) look alike. A few years ago I bought some a generic transformer for an RCA and what they sent was missing the G2 wire. I called the company and they had one left and this one had the G2 wire.

According to Diemen, the 6098 does have an active pin 1:

http://www.hrdiemen.com/reparation/flyback/scheme/6098

I would say the wrong trans was put in the box (it did come in an H.R. box, no?). Here's a pic of the actual transformer. Does yours look like this print and all?

http://www.electronic-spare-parts.com/descript/h/hr_6098.htm

H.V. transformers are not difficult to make but H.R. transformers are premium, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't try to stuff a cheap Asti Magnetics transformer into an H.R. box.

[olds...@tubes.com]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 18:29:37 -0000 (UTC), frank <fr...@invalid.net>
wrote:

What is a LOPT? I'm guessing it's a Picture Tube (CRT), but after
reading your post, I am not sure what you're talking about....
Please define.....

[Phil Allison]

olds...@tubes.com wrote:

>
>
>
> What is a LOPT? I'm guessing it's a Picture Tube (CRT), but after
> reading your post, I am not sure what you're talking about....
> Please define.....
>

** You could Google the term.

LOPT = HOT = horizontal output transformer.



.... Phil

[frank]

ohg...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Could be a mistake, or it could be intentional. IIRC, Diemen uses only a
> few common case molds so a lot of their LOPTs (we call them flybacks)
> look alike. A few years ago I bought some a generic transformer for an RCA
> and what they sent was missing the G2 wire. I called the company and they
> had one left and this one had the G2 wire.
>
> According to Diemen, the 6098 does have an active pin 1:
>
> http://www.hrdiemen.com/reparation/flyback/scheme/6098

That's where I checked too. The schematic of the TV clearly shows some
connections from the pin 1 to the rest of the circuit and the actual PCB
matches too.

>
> I would say the wrong trans was put in the box (it did come in an H.R. box,
> no?). Here's a pic of the actual transformer. Does yours look like this
> print and all?
>
> http://www.electronic-spare-parts.com/descript/h/hr_6098.htm

it looks very similar. The print is on another place, but it says HR 6098.

>
> H.V. transformers are not difficult to make but H.R. transformers are
> premium, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't try to stuff a cheap
> Asti Magnetics transformer into an H.R. box.

Whatever... I'll try to ask for a replacement or money back. It isn't clearly
what it is supposed to be.
Best regards

Frank

[frank]

Line OutPut Transformer. I should have called it flyback maybe

[jurb...@gmail.com]

I would see if the seller can find you one that has pin 1. He simply might not have one and if you want this thing to work you might have no other chopice but to do a bit of modification.

I used to be the King of modification, I mean I soldered a frigging ECG159 too a Syvania deflection IC (15-43301 I think) to cure a no synch problem. I have retuned horizontal deflection circuits. So I could do this pretty much.

there are a couple of things to keep n mind when you go down this path. For one, if all you need a a phase signal going back to a deflection IC somewhere, resistors are your friend. You can get that off of almost any winding.

And if not, if the core is not totally sealed and you can get a wire between it.

The problem with this plan is that if it really is a negative going 55 volt pulse I suspect they are using it for more than synch. You might have missed something on the print or who knows.

The other problem is distance. You get this thing down here with prints I am sure I can make that transformer work unless it is really off. That is what I did for a living for a while, and it was sort of lucrative.

But still, plane tickets are not in the budget. I completely understand that some people do not want to change their decor. I also understand that some people cannot stand watching an LCD screen. Many of them are the ones who bought plasma TVs because you are still watching a phosphor. I know LCDs have improved alot of the last decade or three, and really what makes some people want to krep their old TV is more like "I finally learned how to work the damn thing". I had that in the VCR business. Really, I would call the guy and say "Well unfortunately the repairs come to like a bit over the cost of a new one so it is probably better too just repplace it" and they would come back with "Fix it, I finally learned how to program the timer on thbis one and I am not about to start over". I shit you not.

Anyway, back to brass tacks here. IF you can get a wire through that core, you can have any winding you want. I had to make one with about 400 volts on it to match a yoke to the wrong set, and CRT. All you appear to need is 55 volts. Thatis not that many turns. Just use your scope. And don't worry about wire guage, most of it is really thin. Seriously. Only in big audio power amps do you really need heavy guage wire.

[frank]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> I would see if the seller can find you one that has pin 1. He simply might
> not have one and if you want this thing to work you might have no other
> chopice but to do a bit of modification.

the world looks full of HR-6098 from various vendors.
I just opened a case on ebay, let's see what happens.

>
> I used to be the King of modification, I mean I soldered a frigging ECG159
> too a Syvania deflection IC (15-43301 I think) to cure a no synch problem.
> I have retuned horizontal deflection circuits. So I could do this pretty
> much.

I'm always open to modifications, but not when the right fix is so easy
like getting the right part (that's not even scarce) :)

>
> there are a couple of things to keep n mind when you go down this path.
> For one, if all you need a a phase signal going back to a deflection IC
> somewhere, resistors are your friend. You can get that off of almost any
> winding.

yes, I could get away easily with a resistive partition from another pin.
But what if the mislabeled(?) transformer isn't so close to what it should be?
The TV set is still working, so why should I try my luck?

>
> And if not, if the core is not totally sealed and you can get a wire
> between it.
>
> The problem with this plan is that if it really is a negative going 55 volt
> pulse I suspect they are using it for more than synch. You might have
> missed something on the print or who knows.

looks like it's a synchronization signal to display a vertical bar moving
with the electronic memory tuning. I didn't go into much details, but seems
it's not going anywhere else (and it can be removed for old sets without
digital memories).

>
> The other problem is distance. You get this thing down here with prints I
> am sure I can make that transformer work unless it is really off. That is
> what I did for a living for a while, and it was sort of lucrative.

I know it was. I'm a poor electronic engineer that lives in a no-fix world :)
I could fix most of the old stuff, but that's not something like a real
job nowadays.

>
> But still, plane tickets are not in the budget. I completely understand
> that some people do not want to change their decor. I also understand that
> some people cannot stand watching an LCD screen. Many of them are the ones
> who bought plasma TVs because you are still watching a phosphor. I know
> LCDs have improved alot of the last decade or three, and really what makes
> some people want to krep their old TV is more like "I finally learned how
> to work the damn thing". I had that in the VCR business. Really, I would
> call the guy and say "Well unfortunately the repairs come to like a bit
> over the cost of a new one so it is probably better too just repplace it"
> and they would come back with "Fix it, I finally learned how to program
> the timer on thbis one and I am not about to start over". I shit you not.

much simpler here: as I said, it's the only TV set that fits in the damn
box in the old piece of furniture in my parent's kitchen.
I could never find any LCD that would fit, nor any other CRT.
I would be more than happy if I could recycle this set.

>
> Anyway, back to brass tacks here. IF you can get a wire through that core,
> you can have any winding you want. I had to make one with about 400 volts
> on it to match a yoke to the wrong set, and CRT. All you appear to need is
> 55 volts. Thatis not that many turns. Just use your scope. And don't worry
> about wire guage, most of it is really thin. Seriously. Only in big audio
> power amps do you really need heavy guage wire.

The right replacement is available in tens of online stores. I first let
ebay deal with this mistake (as the seller just said I can't use it and
didn't even want to check another one).

Thanks
Frank

[olds...@tubes.com]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 12:40:57 -0000 (UTC), frank <fr...@invalid.net>

wrote:

>olds...@tubes.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 18:29:37 -0000 (UTC), frank <fr...@invalid.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> What is a LOPT? I'm guessing it's a Picture Tube (CRT), but after
>
>Line OutPut Transformer. I should have called it flyback maybe

If you had said "Flyback", I would have known what you meant. (common
term for old CRT type TVs).

I once had a flyback on an old CRT computer monitor develop an
electrical leak. The case of this transformer (some sort of plastic
coating), had a crack in it, and it was snapping and shooting an inch
long spark..... A nice thick blob of silicone caulk over that hole
solved the problem.... (Clean the thing first with alcohol, then let the
silicone harden, before using).

If my memory is right, the B&W Tvs had around 15,000 volts and the color
Tvs had around 25,000 volts on those flybacks. That's one thing I dont
miss.... those things were known to develop leaks over time, and were
dangerous to work on. HV problems seemed to be the #1 cause of tv
failures. Accumulated dust added to the problems, so always clean off
dust.

PS. If you want to save that console cabinet TV, but modernize it,
remove the chassis and picture tube. Then find a modern flat screen tv
that will fit in the cabinet. Better picture, and less problems....

I have to admit that I miss the nice looking wooden console cabinets
those old TVs had. But an old cabinet can be reused, with a new tv
inside.

When it comes to stereos and amplifiers, I prefer the old stuff (esp the
tube stuff), but when it comes to TV sets, I'll take a modern one any
day over those old CRT sets.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"looks like it's a synchronization signal to display a vertical bar moving
with the electronic memory tuning. I didn't go into much details, but seems
it's not going anywhere else (and it can be removed for old sets without
digital memories). "

If you can get a wire through that core you ggot it licked. I can't even count how many times I "fixed" an H-K short by just "wrapping the flytback" which gave the CRT a totally gloating heater and fixed the problem.

You need a scope to see how much voltage you get. For a CRT filament we needed 22 volt peak to peak to get the 6.3 volts RMS, but you do not have that problem.

The bottom line here is that you might have no other options. I dealt with that quite a bit, flybacks had all their pins but were tuned wrong or whatever, I had to pad quite a few with extra capacvirots on the HOT. (LOPT)

I would talk to the manufacturer, but unfortunately due to the nature of the business he miogh just say "We cannot do that, we will give you a refund". Well as we know, that does not work.