Can somone explain WHY positive first when jumping a car battery?

[mike]

When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.

https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?

Then they said positive first.
Why?

Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?


Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/

And how often do you need to add water?
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?

And how do you know how much to add?
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?

They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn't it more than that?

They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

[Clifford Heath]

On 18/01/23 14:35, mike wrote:
> When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
> not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
> why.

> First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
> Why?
>
> Then they said positive first.
> Why?
>
> Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
> Why?

These three questions only need one answer.

In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery and
may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from completing the
circuit should be made at some distance from the battery. That is, but
connecting the earth to some metal part of the chassis, not to the
battery terminal itself.

The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
last contact point.

> And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

If there is any ionic content in your tap water, it is likely to
precipitate as conductive salts in the bottom of your battery,
increasing the self-discharge rate. Here in Sydney, our water is clean
enough not to need to bother - any effect on battery life is negligible.

CH

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 1/17/2023 10:35 PM, mike wrote:
> When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
> not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
> why.
>
> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
>
> First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
> Why?
>
> Then they said positive first.
> Why?
>
> Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
> Why?
>

Less potential for arcing. If the negative goes on first and you are
touching the car and positive cable you can be a conductor.

>
> Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
> https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
>
> And how often do you need to add water?
> This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
> Isn't that like every ten days?

Last time I had a battery that was not sealed was probably 30 years ago.
Tap water can have chemicals.

[mike]

On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <no....@please.net> wrote:

> In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery and
> may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from completing the
> circuit should be made at some distance from the battery. That is, but
> connecting the earth to some metal part of the chassis, not to the
> battery terminal itself.

Thank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

Isn't there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be connected?

> The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
> last contact point.

I'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but didn't
that article above say the opposite?

They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead car.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

mike wrote on 1/17/2023 10:35 PM:
> When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
> not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
> why.
>
> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
>
>
> First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
> Why?
>

The metal body of a car is connected to the negative terminal of the car
battery. In the old days the bumper was chrome-plated steel, but today
most bumper are covered with polymer so the metal part of the two cars
won't touch anyway.

> Then they said positive first.
> Why?
>

The metal frame of the car is permanently connected to the negative
terminal of the car battery. If you connect the black negative jump
cable first, then when you try to connected the red positive jump cable
you can accidentally drop the big clip into the engine compartment and
cause a fire or battery explosion.

> Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
> Why?
>
>
> Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
> https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
>
>

The electrolyte in a lead-acid car battery is sulfuric acid. Normally
the battery and the sulfuric acid are separate before the battery is
ready for installation. The technician dilutes the pure sulfuric acid
with de-ionized water to the proper strength to be used to fill the
lead-acid battery.

De-ionized water is purer than distilled water. If you use tap water,
then the minerals and ions in the tap water will be conductive and your
car battery will self-discharge internally rather than holding the
charge for a long time. You can easily prove that tap water is quite a
good conductor of electricity by dipping your multimeter test leads into
a cup of tap water.

You can normally get de-ionized water from some auto-parts or hardware
store.

If you cannot get de-ionized, then distilled water will suffice.

https://www.amazon.com/MAXTITE-Type-Deionized-Water-Laboratory/dp/B08RJVJSFB

> And how often do you need to add water?
> This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
> Isn't that like every ten days?
>

When you charge the car battery too fast or overcharge the battery, the
H2O in the electrolyte will separate into H and O2. That's why there is
an air vent to let the hydrogen and oxygen out so that it will not
explode. You can fill the depleted H2O with de-ionized water to the same
level when you got the battery. It is not exact science. A little more
or a little less won't make much difference in the concentration of the
sulfuric acid inside.

> And how do you know how much to add?
> They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
>
> They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
> Isn't it more than that?
>

When your car is running, the battery is being charged so the terminal
voltage is higher than the theoretical nominal voltage of a lead-acid
battery. If you really want to check the nominal voltage of your car
battery, then open the hood to check the terminal voltage with a
multimeter after the car has not been used for a day.

[T]

On 1/17/23 20:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
> The metal frame of the car is permanently connected to the negative
> terminal of the car battery. If you connect the black negative jump
> cable first, then when you try to connected the red positive jump cable
> you can accidentally drop the big clip into the engine compartment and
> cause a fire or battery explosion.

Excellent explanation!

I always did positive first. I will switch!

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 15:10:44 +1100, Clifford Heath <no....@please.net>
wrote:

> On 18/01/23 14:35, mike wrote:
>> When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do,
>> but
>> not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
>> why.
>> First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
>> Why?
>> Then they said positive first.
>> Why?
>> Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
>> Why?
>
> These three questions only need one answer.
>
> In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery and
> may be still concentrated enough to burn,

Don't buy that for two reasons. Firstly most cars and trucks
have the battery in the engine compartment and just opening
the hood/bonnet to get to the battery will ensure that any
hydrogen under the hood will be long gone by the time you
use the jumper leads. Secondly you will always get a spark
when connecting the last one anyway.

Presumably the 'logic' for connecting the negative lead to the
body of the car with the dead battery is that the spark will be
further away from the battery, but as I say, it is a pretty dubious
proposition that there will be any hydrogen still around.

A few cars do have the battery in the passenger comparment or
the trunk/boot, so many that instruction is to cover that situation.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:35:29, mike <th...@address.is.invalid> wrote: (my
responses usually follow points raised):

> And how do you know how much to add?
> They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?

I have no idea what a splash plate is, but most of the fill tubes are about
an inch long in each cell and they're slotted to make a meniscus for you.

Here's an explanation of that meniscus but I wish it had a photo of it.
https://www.wikihow.com/Check-Car-Battery-Water-Levels

Anyone here have a good photo of the slotted meniscus eye shape for him?

[rbowman]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 10:03:32 +0530, mike wrote:


> I'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but didn't
> that article above say the opposite?
> They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead
> car.

If you connect the negative first and inadvertently touch any grounded
surface you'll get a spark. That's also the reason for not having the cars
touching although that advice is seriously out of date. Plastic to plastic
contact isn't a problem. The majority of the vehicles any more don't have
steel bumpers.

[rbowman]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 23:25:15 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


> Last time I had a battery that was not sealed was probably 30 years ago.
> Tap water can have chemicals.

The pickup battery isn't sealed, but the bike batteries and the Toyota's
are.

[rbowman]

It's a little different situation but the battery on a Harley Sportster is
a pain in the butt. The easiest way to get the positive terminal screw
tightened is to come in across the engine with a long screwdriver, then
snug it down with a 10mm. If you do the negative first you're probably
going to have some fireworks.

[Peeler]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:00:39 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID: <f9056fe6-1479-40ff...@googlegroups.com>

[Peeler]

On 18 Jan 2023 06:23:44 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> The pickup battery isn't sealed

If there'd only be a way to seal your mouth for good, bigmouth!

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 18 Jan 2023 06:28:37 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> It's a little different situation but the battery on a Harley Sportster is
> a pain in the butt.

Somewhat like your big mouth? LOL

--
More of the senile gossip's absolutely idiotic senile blather:
"I stopped for breakfast at a diner in Virginia when the state didn't do
DST. I remarked on the time difference and the crusty old waitress said
'We keep God's time in Virginia.'

I also lived in Ft. Wayne for a while."

MID: <t0tjfa$6r5$1...@dont-email.me>

[Peeler]

On 18 Jan 2023 06:20:37 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> If you connect the negative first and inadvertently touch any grounded
> surface you'll get a spark.

I wonder what would happen, if one plugged a car battery to your lips. Would
that stop your mouth for a while, or wouldn't it?

--
Yet more of the so very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"My family loaded me into a '51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in '52. I'm alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going."
MID: <j2kuc1...@mid.individual.net>

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-01-18 04:35, mike wrote:
> When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
> not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
> why.
>
> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
>
> First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
> Why?
>
> Then they said positive first.
> Why?

Because of the danger of touching metal with the positive lead when the
two negatives are connected.

This assumes the car has negative ground, although a positive ground is
very rare in cars nowdays.

>
> Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
> Why?

Same reason.

>
>
> Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
> https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/

I don't know about damaging, but you dilute the existing liquid, will
not have the proper proportions when you start charging immediately.
Better wait.

However, if the plates are partially out of the liquid, don't attempt to
charge, fill first. The battery may be dead in any case, though.


Also, read about bubbles below.

>
> And how often do you need to add water?

You find that from observation of how fast the level goes down.

> This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
> Isn't that like every ten days?
>
> And how do you know how much to add?

There is typically "something" to show you the level.

> They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?

As you add water, the level touches the rim of a "tube" and the
reflection of the light in the water surface suddenly changes shape.
Stop there.

>
> They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
> Isn't it more than that?

Depends on charge level.

>
> They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
> Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

Gas bubbles form inside when charging. If you do fast charging, they can
be big. Those bubbles inside the liquid make its volume bigger, and it
may overflow. A car battery is designed considering that the vibrations
of the motor will release the bubbles fast, before they become big. A
battery designed to be on a room has more space between plates so that
the bubbles release easier without vibrations.

So, if the level is too low (close to the plates) add some water, but
not the maximum.

>
> And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

Damage.

In chemistry, you only use distilled water, for every reaction. You do
not want extra chemicals.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
> On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>
> The reverse.
>

De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:

    Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

    Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

    Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:05:29 +0530, mike

<th...@address.is.invalid> wrote:

>When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
>not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
>why.
>
>https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
>
>First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
>Why?

IIRC when cars had metal bumpers and people didn't have such good jumper
cables, they would touch the bumpers together in place of the negative
cable. And then maybe it could leave damage on the chrome from
sparking. ??? Now all the bumpers are covered in plastic or rubber and
it makes no difference. But the warning is still there.

>
>Then they said positive first.
>Why?
>
>Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
>Why?

The second goes with the first, so that making/breaking is with the
negative cable, but that leaves the origial question. The correct
answer seems counter-intuitive. I used to know the answer and it's not
obvious. It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you've
hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
negative first. Then while you're trying to connect the positive (and
sometimes that's not easy. It has a cover or it's tucked away, or you
can see it but can't get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
are connected to a good battery. Big spark. Thing you are touching it
to gets damaged. If you manage to clamp or hold it on, cables get hot,
insulation melts.

If you connect the positive first, you know you have that cable in the
right place, and then the ground cable would have to accidentally touch
specifically the positive terminal to be a short circuit. Anything else
it touches would be okay. In fact they also urge people to connect not
the negative battery post but to some other body or frame part, so that
that spark is away from the battery where the hydrogen is generated.

I suppopse hydrogen must have been a problem at least one time in
history -- a spark will ignite the hydrogen, and the flame could spread,
I suppose, to the hydrogen still in the battery, which would cause the
battery to explode and burst which will ruin the battey and spray acid
all over the place. But as Rod said, hydrogen is light and disperses
quickly and iirc it's only made when the battery is charging (wrong. See
below) and is also (so this is wrong too:) discharged enough to take a
charge, and your dead battery lately, unless it has been and ylu got
interrupted and have to put the cables back on. And the good car
battery has enough alternator voltage to charge all the time, but it's
probably fully charged and not making any hydrogen anyhow.

So to correct myself, it makes hydrogen when the battery is discharging.
I suppose by the time you go find someone to jump the car, there has
been loads of time for the hydrogen to blow away. Maybe the explosion
happened in a testing lab where they were all set up and they discharged
the battery and then recharged it immediately. ?????

So this is less likely to be a problem and I still use my negative
battery post for a jump, but the first question, negative on last, makes
sense. Even though I know where to put the cable, eventually I will
touch something I shoudln't so it's better to go in that order.

>
>Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
>https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
>
>And how often do you need to add water?

Very rarely, unless the charging voltage of the alternator is too high,
because the regulator isn't working right. These things continue to get
more reliable.

>This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
>Isn't that like every ten days?

Or ten trips??

I don't know what they mean by charging cycle, but I check maybe once a
year. If I needed more than a little bit of water, I'd would plan to
check again in a month or two. Doesn't mean I would do so. I've been
sluggish and actually checked only once in the last 5 years. Two years
ago. I did need quite a bit of water.

>And how do you know how much to add?

When the water looks flat, it needs water. When the water reaches the
right level, it touches the bottom of the tube-like thing that is the
filler for the chamber and you can see the meniscu, where the water
curls up at the edges, so when you look, it's not flat everywhere. It's
curled at the edges like water in a glass is where it touches the glass.
That means you've put in enough water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meniscus_(liquid) Water forms a concave
meniscus. Maybe liquid mercury forms a convex one. Oh, yeah sure
enough, that's what it says. You can see it in any glass of water,
although I think soap keeps it from forming.

>They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?

Never heard that term but they must mean what I just said.

>
>They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
>Isn't it more than that?

No. Charging voltage is intended to be 13.4 or something like that
because if you only have 12.7 it will charge too slowly to recharge what
it lost during starting or running lights while the engine is off.

>
>They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
>Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

I'm sure they didbn't make this up, but I don't worry about timing like
that and I've never noticed it overflow. OTOH, I have had shmutz on the
top of the battery, white crud, and that is from the acid in the
battery. Plus even if you don't see white crud, if you pour some baking
powder on the battery and then add water (this is to the outside so it
doesn't have to be distilled) and you see bubbles, that means there is
acid on top of the battery. When the bubbling ends, all the acid has
been neutralized. There very often is some. (Even sealed batteries have
a vent iirc, but maybe not). does it get there because of evaporation
and then condensing, can acid do that? or did the battery overflow when
I was driving. I very rarely overfilled even one of the six chambers,
and even then there is room for expansion. You have to overfill a lot
before it's near the top. .

>And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

Tap water has minerals and they would combine with the sulfuric acid
without generating electricity, or maybe with the lead itself. Something
like that. They'd get involved in the chemical reactions and slightly
lessen the power of the battery. Pb + H2S04 -> PbS04 + H2, when
discharging**, and the reverse when charging, or something like that.
The reverse is tricky because the PbS04 should release the lead and it
should go back onto the plates. If you charge too fast it does but it
gets covered by some other compound, probably PbS04, and it makes
"spongy lead". then the surface of the plates isn't entirely lead and
the battery isn't as powerful as it originally was. Also some lead etc.
drops into the bottom, which is empty for a half inch or an inch, so
the junk in the bottom doesn't short out the plates. Not easy to
build a good car.

**Oops This would mean that hydrogen is made during discharging, not
charging like I said.

As to sealed batteries, even non-sealed batteries pretend to be sealed
now. They don't have 6 screw on caps. They have 2 wide flat plastic
plates you can pry off, that look similar to sealed batteries. IIRC
they hoped car charging systems would all work so well that sealed
batteries would be fine, but it didn't always work out that way and
people still had to add water and they were annoyed when they coudln't,
so non-sealed made a resurgence, but they try to look like sealed so the
police and border guards won't stop and interrogate them.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?

<@.> wrote:

>Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:

>> On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
>>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>
>> The reverse.
>>
>
>De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
>
>https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
>
>Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
>Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
>them:
>
>     Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
>
>     Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
>
>     Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.
>

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

You don't get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.

You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Read the product description of that deionized water for "topping up car
battery":

Turbo Power Deionized Water, 3.78-L

Turbo Power Deionized Water helps provide protection against the
damaging effects of scale build-up and corrosion often caused by the use
of regular water. Ideal for topping-up cooling systems, topping-up car
batteries when battery acid level is low and diluting concentrated
radiator antifreeze/coolants.

[rbowman]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:

> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

I'll see your URL and raise you two:

https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water

"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized water
– but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. There are pros and
cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency."

https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used-
for/

"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form of
purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available and, in some
cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water. However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer contaminants
than deionized water."

It's a toss.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

"However, distilled water does not contain any impurities" is definitely
a misconception. The writer of that article is definitely babbling
nonsense without any real knowledge.

I am a self-made expert in distillation. I own two expensive fractional
distillation columns, and I currently own about 5 counter-top water
distillers. If you know how to use the digital counter-top water
distiller in an inventive way, you can do fractional distillation
professionally in your kitchen.

Fractional distillation column:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column

When water boils, it is not just pure H2O that is coming out in the
steam. All other minor solutes in the water with boiling point lower
than water will also come out in the steam. Besides that, some of the
light weight microscopic impurities in the water will also "ride" the
steam and come out of the boiling water.

You can do very accurate fractional distillation using a digital
counter-top water distiller from Amazon. You can set the boiling
temperature digitally, and theoretically you can separately a mixture of
many solutes with differently boiling points by distilling at different
temperatures.

My own expertise is electrical engineering but I am, in a way, a crazy
scientist.

There are a few varieties of digital counter-top water distillers from
Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=digital+countertop+water+distiller

Most of them are 750W power. That will be too much power if you try to
distill a volatile liquid because the built-in fan and condenser coil at
the top of the distiller cannot condense the volatile vapour fast enough
(so some of them will escape to the air). You can effectively cut the
power in half by opening the bottom and solder a single rectifier diode
to the wire leading to the heating coil. You can further adjust the
power by connecting to unit to a variable auto-transformer which can
lower the power supply voltage to reduce power.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=variable+auto+transformer

I'll refuse any responsibility if you cause physical injury or property
damage by trying the fun things I have just described above.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:16 AM:
> MightyWannabe wrote:
>
>> There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
>> could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
>> jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric
>> current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
>> operation.
> In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
> was young that the best way to "absorb" some of the excess current in the
> first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.
>
> This seems counterintuitive from the recipient's standpoint in terms of
> "using" current but the theory is that the "B" sense circuit of the
> alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a "very low"
> battery so it tells the alternator to put out a "very high" current, whose
> initial burst could ("they say") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.
>
> Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment.
>
>> There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
>> that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to go
>> back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
>> system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
> But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?


I can think of a simple way. Connect jump cable clamps to the car
battery terminals and then carefully loosen and lift the terminals from
the old battery.

Another way is to connect a 12V cigarette lighter plug into the
cigarette lighter socket to temporarily maintain a 12V to the whole
system from another 12V power source before you disconnect your old
battery. You may have to power on the accessories in your car if you car
is designed to cut off the power to the cigarette lighter socket when
the ignition is off.

[Peter W.]

Following up on Wannabe....

I am indirectly responsible for the care-and-feeding of a lab-grade RO/DI water system serving a 600,000 research facility and vivarium. It occupies over 300 square feet of footprint, runs 24/7 and will produce hundreds of gallons per hour, if needed. Points:

Lab Grade RO/DI water is very nearly mineral and salt-free, free of dissolved gasses, metals and other trace elements or contaminants, and very nearly unreactive. Meaning that it is nearly impossible to hydrolyze (break down into H2 & O2 by running a current through it). There are five separate steps in making the stuff, from City Water to Product, including pre-and-post filtration, softening, and going through the De-Ionization and Osmosis processes. This is NOT distilled water, and it is created by a far more complex process than simply boiling water.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:37 AM:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
>>>>>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>>>> The reverse.
>>>>>
>>>> De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
>>>>
>>>> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
>>>>
>>>> Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
>>>> Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
>>>> them:
>>>>

>>>>     Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
>>>>
>>>>     Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>>>
>>>>     Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.

>>>>
>>> Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons.
>>> Pretty much proof by assertion.
>>>
>>> OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
>>>
>>> I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
>>> it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
>>>
>>> Here is my search
>>> https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
>>> and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
>>>
>>> Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
>>> process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
>>> maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
>>> from water than distillation or conventional filters.

>>> The Perfect “Solution†for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
>>> https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

>>>
>>> vs.
>>>
>>> Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?

>>> https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
>>> Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;

> Didn't the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that "acid
> rain" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as
> distilled water nowadays?
>
> Sure, it's slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it's not acid rain, that is, as
> acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a
> bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won't hurt
> the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it?
>
> I'm guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles
> of a volcano (and you don't) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don't),
> is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country.
>
> Sure rain water will have a bit of "something here" and "something there"
> based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of
> distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere.
>
> Someone said there are "particles" in the rain water, but I don't believe
> that as you can't see any when you collect it outside and even if there
> were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store
> bought distilled water doesn't have particles?).
>
> Sure, both might have particles, but I can't imagine they could matter
> given how few there would be if you can't even see them with your eyes.
>
> But I don't know. I'm just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of
> you. If there's someone who actually knows what he's talking about (not
> me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this line
> of reasoning.


You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
the battery fluid.

You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water.

A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to
dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:

> rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>> "Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
>> water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.

> Has anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the
> chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?
>
> Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
> dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.
>
> So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
> lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.
>
> Has anyone thought of that?


Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!

Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
but one gallon goes a long way.

Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.

[Frank]

Think those costs are off with two different sources and sizes.

Google sez this:

"However, in general, distilled water is more expensive than deionized
water. This is because it takes more time and energy to produce
distilled water, and it also requires special equipment that not all
companies have."

When I worked in the lab we had a distilled water line to every bench
but it was replaced by deionized water to save cost.

Been decades since I had a car battery that needed water but I am
hearing it is better to put distilled or demineralized water in your car
radiator if needed as minerals are bad there too.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:21:25 +0000, Peter
<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

>micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>> It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
>> accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you've
>> hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
>> negative first. Then while you're trying to connect the positive (and
>> sometimes that's not easy. It has a cover or it's tucked away, or you
>> can see it but can't get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
>> engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
>> while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
>> are connected to a good battery. Big spark.
>

>Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the
>last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the
>battery, so that would have to be the negative cable.
>
>However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all the
>hydrogen, so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on
>last (because that's where the spark will be and the donor battery is
>presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing).

Oh yeah, I think they say to do that too, but I've never worried about
that. And I've gotten tired of standing there holding my battery cables
waiting for someone to offer me a jump, so I bought what is no longer
sold, Battery Buddy. It was great. When the car voltage got low, it
disconnected the battery and all you had to do was open the hood, push a
big red button, and the car woulds start. The first one lasted iirc 12
years, but I had planned ahead and bought another, tthat came in an
unlabeled brown box. It lasted only a year or two. I think it came from
their stack of likely defective ones, that say in a corner until the
company folded. (a lot of assumptions here, but I coudlnt' find any
more for sale.)

Finally I found Priority Start, 4 or 5 times the price, but it has a
motor, so all I have to do is sit in the driver's seat and put my foot
on the brake and it reconnects the battery. I've had it 3 or 4 years
and I've used it twice and it's great. It seems to be made mostly for
commerical trucking fleets, so they would lose money if the truck
doesn't start, and they tolerate the higher price.
https://www.prioritystart.com/
http://www.mcssl.com/store/prioritystart/12vpromax
https://www.mcssl.com/store/prioritystart/models

I had a lot of trouble connecting the Toyota battery cable to this
thing. Toyota's seem pretty good but their battery connectors leave a
lot to be desired. Or some related problem.

The car radio forgets most of what it wants knew, and the engine timing
information is forgotten I guess, although I've never noticed a change
in how the car runs, at least not for more than 5 minutes. Newer cars
might forget even more, but at least I wasn't late to my doctor's
appointment.
>
>But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first, then
>anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched.
>
>So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and specifically
>the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by
>another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably
>also on the donor car because it's going to spark.
>
>Which is the correct line of reasoning?
>
>(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
> likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or
>(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
> of accidentally shorting the circuit & the donor has less outgassing
>
>Which is more logical?

I don't see any reason to doubt what the poobahs say.

[Charles Lucas]

One of the reasons why the specific order is indicated (that is "Positive First" is attached
and then "Negative Last" is attached when connecting a car battery- and the when
disconnecting a battery, the Negative is disconnected first, followed by the positive
last- vice versa when connecting and disconnecting as just explained in this order)
for a few reasons.

First of all, with DC, it is direct current. By doing as instructed with the negative terminal,
you minimize or eliminate electrostatic discharge (which can be harder on other components),
the memory circuits on either a car or other device are "cleared" or re-initialized in this way,
and it minimizes the risk of a short circuit (or the positive and negative "touching") when this
is done. So, it saves your components (and your battery too).

Good Luck.

Charles Lucas

[Slevin]

Peter wrote:

> Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades a
> car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years?
>
>

I've got a 6 year old U1 lawn tractor battery in the snow thrower and a
8 year old U1 in the zero turn. I use RO water to replenish both when
needed.

Off season, I throw a Battery Minder Plus 1510 on them so they don't
discharge/freeze/sulfate.

[John Robertson]

On 2023/01/17 8:33 p.m., mike wrote:
> On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <no....@please.net> wrote:
>
>> In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery
>> and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
>> completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
>> battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
>> chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
>
> Thank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first.
> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
>
> Isn't there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be connected?
>
>> The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
>> last contact point.

>
> I'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but didn't
> that article above say the opposite?
> They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead car.

The point is to first connect the positive lead to the battery positive,
and then the negative lead AWAY FROM THE BATTERY by connecting to the
engine metal. In that order for safety.

After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is AWAY
FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
Perhaps you left the jumpers connected for a few minutes while charging
the battery which leads to more hydrogen gas which makes a spark more
and more likely/dangerous as time goes on...

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
#7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Distilled water is good enough for being devoid of "almost" all
impurities except some ions. Distilled water is still quite conductive
if you test a glass of distilled water with a multimeter.

Deionized water for home use is done with a canister of resin beads
inline with your water pipe. The water is passed through the canister
that can capture most, but not all the ions. Since the resin beads has
charges that can capture only ionized particles in the water, other
impurities in the water that have no electrical charges will not be
captured.

Therefore, as I have explained before, the highest grade of pure water
is deionized water made from distilled water.

Theoretically pure H2O does not conduct electricity, but in reality only
deionized water made from distilled water can approached that
theoretical state of being purely dielectric.

https://puretecwater.com/deionized-water/what-is-deionized-water

[micky]

There is also C: Put the positive on the recipient car last because you
have less chance of accidentally shorting the circuit & there is no
hydrogen there.

Of A and B, they might both be logoical but B is more important.
Shorting the donor battery, even at the other car, is going to cause a
lot more trouble, cause a lot more damage, than hydrogen gases. That's
why B is recommended.

Usually the guy helping me is also putting the cables on his car, but I
still look at them before I finish my car. For various reason, I've
had many dead batteries. Once a pretty girl stopped to give my car
battery a jump.

[ehsjr]

On 1/18/2023 10:28 AM, Peter wrote:
> <hub...@ccanoemail.com> wrote:
>>> I always did positive first. I will switch!
>>
>> Think it out first - then decide.
>
> I'm thinking... I'm thinking... I'm trying to think this thing out.
> I don't think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last.

Yes it does. First, set any thoughts of sparks causing an explosion
aside. That's a *very* low probability occurrence as compared to the
real reason. Unfortunately, a lot of people focus on the sparks
issue and don't mention the real reason. And please note that the real
reason also involves sparks.

The real reason has been mentioned earlier, but apparently
needs to be repeated, maybe with more detail, so here goes.
The real reason: there is a huge area of metal in the engine
compartment, the car bumpers and fenders (if metal) etc. It
is very easy to inadvertently touch the bare end of a jumper
cable to that bare metal. If the negative jumper cable is
connected first, and you're connecting the positive cable
to the bad battery, you'll get a short circuit with that
inadvertent touch, powerful sparks, a possible tack weld of
the jumper cable, and a very bad day. (Possible fire, burns,
dead battery, ruined cables, etc.)

If you connect the positive jumper first, the end of the cable
CANNOT cause a short when it touches ANY bare metal in the
car receiving the jump.

The proper procedure:
1 Put the cars close together but NOT touching.
2 Stretch the cable out so the bare positive end
is away from the car with the good battery.
3 Connect the positive cable to the positive of
the good battery
4 Connect the other end of the positive cable to
the positive of the bad battery.
5 Connect the negative cable to the good battery
6 Connect the other end to the other car battery
negative, or to the other car engine compartment
metal where you can get a good solid mechanical
clamping spot.
7 When finished do the above in reverse order

The above recognizes - and mitigates - the possibility
of sparks, but focuses on the real potential hazard:
short circuit. I wish all this talk of exploding
hydrogen gas had never appeared, because it hides
the extremely more probable event of a short circuit,
which, of itself, creates a more powerful spark than
connecting (or disconnecting) a jumper cable to a
battery.

Ed


>
> As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that sparks.
> And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks.
>
> Since you don't want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable
> hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I'll concoct is you want the negative
> cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible.
>
> That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect.
> And the first to disconnect.
>
> Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which
> battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas.
>
> The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose, which
> battery will have more hydrogen outgassing?
>
> (A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or
> (B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge)
>
> The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen
> gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the
> most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor.
>
> All this is just "thinking it out" so tell me if I'm wrong so I learn from
> your expertise (the royal your that is, as everyone has something to say).

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 3:46 PM:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
>
>>> Has anyone thought of that?
>> Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
>> cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!

> I haven't used toilet paper in years.
>
> There's no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home most of
> the time because they can just use this which works wonders for cleaning.
> https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/

It's a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.


> And no, you dirty minded pervert (I say that jokingly because I know what
> you're thinking when you saw it) it doesn't go inside of anything.
>
> It stays on the outside.
> And it's warm water.
>
> For that quick and easy fifty buck investment, you never need to buy toilet
> paper for the rest of your life, and, better yet, you're cleaner (by far)
> than you would have been had you used toilet paper in the first place.
>
> These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.


It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.


> And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
> Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the drain).


Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?


> Brown, then green, then wood chips, then brown, green, chips anew.
> Repeat until the closed bucket is full.
> Then fertilize outside as needed.
>
> And yes, the fruit trees are all fertilized by humanure/urine/scraps.
> And the process starts anew.

>
>> Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
>> but one gallon goes a long way.

> I'm not disagreeing but I am pointing out the fewer the ionic
> concentration, it seems logical the water will demineralize the battery
> just as it does with a pool.

A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.

Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the outside
world.

>> Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.

> The less saturated the water is, the more it demineralizes the battery. The
> CSI or LSI is a very common issue with pools demineralizing for example.
>
> For a pool, we are careful to manage the calcium saturation index (often
> specifically the Langelier Saturation Index) to as near to the zero
> crossing point as we can, keeping in mind it changes due to a half dozen
> key components such as the temperature, pH, total carbonate alkalinity,
> calcium hardness, cyanuric acid level (for outdoor pools), total dissolved
> solids (particularly high for salt water chlorine generator pools) & borate
> (if any).
>
> Why wouldn't demineralized water demineralize a battery?


Because a car battery doesn't work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?


> Bear in mind I don't;t know the answer - I'm just looking at the problem
> set logically.

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:39:09 +1100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid>
wrote:

Wrong. And my formal qualifications are in chemistry.

> You do not want extra chemicals.

Depends on what you are doing. Mostly it doesn't matter.

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:54:13 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:09:56 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

> Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
>> On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
>>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>
>> The reverse.
>>
>
> De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

Nope.

> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

That's the operation flogging de-ionizers

> Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
> Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
> them:
>
> Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
>
> Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

Wrong.

> Distilled water conducts electricity,

Wrong.

> while deionized water does not.

Separate matter entirely to which has other than H2O in it.

[Rod Speed]

Those arent ions, they are gasses.

> and/or hydroxide ions,

You don't get those in distilled water.

> I don't see how they would cause a probem
> in a battery.

They aren't.

> Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
> those very ions?

It decomposes into gasses when overcharged.

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:45:07 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote on 1/18/2023 7:09 AM:
>> Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
>>> On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
>>>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>>
>>> The reverse.
>>>
>>
>> De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
>>
>> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
>>
>> Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
>> Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
>> understanding them:
>>
>> Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
>>
>> Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>
>> Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does
>> not.
>>
>>
>
>
> People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
> form of water but that's not true.

Fraid so.

> Common distilled water is obtained by boiling water and collecting the
> condensed steam. The condensed steam is not 100% pure H2O because there
> are chemicals in the water with lower boiling point than H2O that will
> come over in the distillation process.

That,s not how distillation works. The lower boiling point liquids come
over first, before the water being distilled has reached boiling point.

> The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
> with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
> remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

Deionised water is even cheaper and easier to get.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:40:22 +1100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
>
>> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
>
> I'll see your URL and raise you two:
>
> https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water
>
> "Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
> water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
> on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized
> water
> – but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. There are pros and
> cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
> processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency."
>
> https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used-
> for/
>
> "The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form
> of
> purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available

No it is not,

> and, in some
> cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water.

Even sillier.

> However, distilled
> water does not contain any impurities

And that conflicts with its previous claim.

> and therefore has fewer contaminants
> than deionized water."

> It's a toss.

Nope, not in some situations like chemistry and medicine.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-01-18 13:36, micky wrote:
> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
> <@.> wrote:
>
>> Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
>>> On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
>>>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>>
>>> The reverse.
>>>
>>
>> De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
>>
>> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
>>
>> Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
>> Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
>> them:
>>
>>     Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

Bullshit, don't try that, you could die.

Why can't we drink distilled water?

Drinking distilled water creates health problems from the lack of
essential nutrients and causes dehydration. Drinking distilled water is
never a bad idea because the body cannot absorb dissolved minerals from
water into the tissue.Sep 29, 2022

What Is Distilled Water and Is It Safe to Drink?
https://www.freshwatersystems.com › blogs › blog › is-...

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/blogs/blog/is-distilled-water-safe-to-drink

<https://www.smacgigworld.com/blog/differences-between-deionized-water-and-distilled-water.php>


Distillation:

Advantages

Removes contaminants to a large extent
Reusable
Lower cost

Limitations

Some contaminants that have the same boiling point as water is
vaporized with water can be carried into the condensate
Careful maintenance is required to ensure purity
Requires more heat / electrical energy to boil the water.
Requires large space on the counter
Slower process



Deionization:

Advantages

Effectively remove dissolved ions in the water.
Able to regenerate resin beds
Low-cost investment

Limitation

Do not remove particles or bacteria.
Operating costs increase when used for the long term.




--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:16:22 +1100, Peter
<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> MightyWannabe wrote:
>
>> There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
>> could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
>> jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric
>> current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
>> operation.
>
> In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
> was young that the best way to "absorb" some of the excess current in the
> first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.
>
> This seems counterintuitive from the recipient's standpoint in terms of
> "using" current but the theory is that the "B" sense circuit of the
> alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a "very low"
> battery so it tells the alternator to put out a "very high" current,
> whose
> initial burst could ("they say") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.

That makes no sense because it would happen with any very
poor battery which does eventually manage to start the engine.

> Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks

Nope.

> who are asked to comment.

>> There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
>> that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to go
>> back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
>> system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
>
> But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?

The best way to change batterys is to keep supplying 12V with the original
battery removed until the new battery has been connected. Thats what the
pros do to avoid the antitheft system kicking in.

[Rod Speed]

But don't understand the basics.

> I own two expensive fractional distillation columns, and I currently own
> about 5 counter-top water distillers. If you know how to use the digital
> counter-top water distiller in an inventive way, you can do fractional
> distillation professionally in your kitchen.
>
> Fractional distillation column:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column
>
> When water boils, it is not just pure H2O that is coming out in the
> steam. All other minor solutes in the water with boiling point lower
> than water will also come out in the steam.

The reality is that there arent any significant amounts
of lower boiling point liquids in normal tap water and
certainly none that are a problem in a vehicle battery.

> Besides that, some of the light weight microscopic impurities in the
> water will also "ride" the steam and come out of the boiling water.

Ditto with those.

> You can do very accurate fractional distillation using a digital
> counter-top water distiller from Amazon. You can set the boiling
> temperature digitally, and theoretically you can separately a mixture of
> many solutes with differently boiling points by distilling at different
> temperatures.
>
> My own expertise is electrical engineering but I am, in a way, a crazy
> scientist.

But don't understand the basics.

<reams of stuff irrelevant to water for vehicle batterys flushed>

[Frank]

It appears wrong to me too. Do not know where these claims came from
except maybe somebody trying to tout their own system.

[Frank]

I am a retired chemist and we are in agreement.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:28:58 +1100, Peter
<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> <hub...@ccanoemail.com> wrote:
>>> I always did positive first. I will switch!
>>
>> Think it out first - then decide.
>
> I'm thinking... I'm thinking... I'm trying to think this thing out.
> I don't think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last.

You are wrong with the question of accidentally touching
the body etc with the positive lead when the negatives
have already been connected. Much safer to connect the
positive terminals first.

> As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that
> sparks.
> And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks.

Sparks aren't the problem. they happen regardless of which
of positive and negative you connect first.

> Since you don't want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable
> hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I'll concoct is you want the
> negative
> cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible.

The reality is that with the battery in the engine compartment
with the hood up, there will be on concentration of flammable
hydrogen gas.

Even with the few cars that have the battery in the passenger
compartment or the trunk, thats still very unlikely because
the battery only produces hydrogen gas when it continues
to be charged after it is fully charged.

> That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect.
> And the first to disconnect.
>
> Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which
> battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas.
>
> The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose,
> which
> battery will have more hydrogen outgassing?
>
> (A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or

But which won't be being charged unless the engine is still running.

> (B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge)

Only AFTER the connection has been made which allows that.

> The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen
> gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the
> most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor.

The reality is that it isnt about hydrogen gas, its about
accidentally touching the body of the recipient car with
the positive jumper lead before it is connected to the
positive post of the flat battery.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:37:33 +1100, Peter
<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
>>>>>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>>>> The reverse.
>>>>>
>>>> De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
>>>>

>>>> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

>>>>
>>>> Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
>>>> Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
>>>> understanding
>>>> them:
>>>>

>>>> Â Â Â Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
>>>>
>>>> Â Â Â Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>>>
>>>> Â Â Â Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water
>>>> does not.
>>>>

>>> Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of
>>> reasons.
>>> Pretty much proof by assertion.
>>>
>>> OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
>>>
>>> I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
>>> it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
>>>
>>> Here is my search
>>> https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
>>> and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
>>>
>>> Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
>>> process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
>>> maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more
>>> impurities
>>> from water than distillation or conventional filters.

>>> The Perfect “Solution†for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries

>>> https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

>>>
>>> vs.
>>>
>>> Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?

>>> https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...

>>> Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled

>>> water;
>>> it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
>>> method
>>>
>>>
>>> Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
>>> Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
>>> don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
>>>
>>>
>>> If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
>>> oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
>>> in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
>>> those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
>>> distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've
>>> already
>>> spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys
>>> resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
>>

>> People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest

>> form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by

>> boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
>> not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
>> boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.
>>

>> The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
>> with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
>> remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
>>

>> You don't get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
>> pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
>> through the resin beads.
>>
>> You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
>> gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
>> have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.
>>
>> https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html
>
> Didn't the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that "acid
> rain" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as
> distilled water nowadays?

No its not, because its impossible to collect rain water
that has come off the roof without some dirt and stuff
like bird shit and leaves from the roof, quite apart from
what happens to it sitting in your tank between when it
came off the roof and you get some to add to your battery.

> Sure, it's slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it's not acid rain, that is, as
> acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a
> bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won't hurt
> the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it?

The problem is the lead carbonate. Not enough to matter tho.

> I'm guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles
> of a volcano (and you don't) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don't),
> is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country.

Nope, because of whats on the roof and in the gutters dirt and bird shit
wise.

> Sure rain water will have a bit of "something here" and "something there"
> based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of
> distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere.

The difference is that the distilled water hasnt fallen thru thousands
of feet of air in small droplets.

> Someone said there are "particles" in the rain water, but I don't believe
> that as you can't see any when you collect it outside and even if there
> were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store
> bought distilled water doesn't have particles?).

Doesnt help with the solubles.

> Sure, both might have particles, but I can't imagine they could matter
> given how few there would be if you can't even see them with your eyes.

You can't see solubles.

> But I don't know.

That's obvious.

> I'm just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of
> you. If there's someone who actually knows what he's talking about (not
> me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this
> line
> of reasoning.

Wouldn't dream of doing that. You might burst into tears
and that would be rather embarrasijng and someone might
claim I have breached community standards.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:41:48 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

> Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:16 AM:
>> MightyWannabe wrote:
>>
>>> There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
>>> could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
>>> jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying
>>> electric
>>> current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
>>> operation.
>> In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
>> was young that the best way to "absorb" some of the excess current in
>> the
>> first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.
>>
>> This seems counterintuitive from the recipient's standpoint in terms of
>> "using" current but the theory is that the "B" sense circuit of the
>> alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a "very low"
>> battery so it tells the alternator to put out a "very high" current,
>> whose
>> initial burst could ("they say") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.
>>

>> Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment.

>>
>>> There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
>>> that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to
>>> go
>>> back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
>>> system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
>> But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?
>
>

> I can think of a simple way. Connect jump cable clamps to the car
> battery terminals and then carefully loosen and lift the terminals from
> the old battery.

Trouble with that approach is that you can't
usually connect the thick battery leads to the
new battery until the new batter is where the
old battery still is.

> Another way is to connect a 12V cigarette lighter plug into the
> cigarette lighter socket to temporarily maintain a 12V to the whole
> system from another 12V power source before you disconnect your old
> battery. You may have to power on the accessories in your car if you car
> is designed to cut off the power to the cigarette lighter socket when
> the ignition is off.
>
>
>

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:50:24 +1100, Peter

<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
>> People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
>> form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
>> boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
>> not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
>> boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.
>>
>> The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
>> with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
>> remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
>

> It's a car battery. It's not a silicon based integrated circuit.
> Water is water. To a certain degree it's all the same thing.

Fraid not.

> I don't know the answer for sure,

That's obvious.

> but I would reason out that almost all
> tap water will be just fine in a car battery

Some tap water is quite hard and produces
lots of scales in an electric jug over time.

> although I don't doubt
> chlorine (or chloramines?) that they put in them might affect the
> lead:acid
> chemistry.

That doesn't.

> They add fluorine too I think,

Fluoride, not flourine.

> and there might be a decent amount of
> calcium carbonates

Yes, with hard water.

> and metallic ions such as copper and phosphorous.

Not normally enough to matter.

But some still have water from wells for their tap water.

> I'm guessing that the minute amount of such things (having owned a pool,
> I'm aware they're in the PPM range, and PPB for phosphorous) in a car
> battery designed to last five years, won't make one bit of difference.

Particularly as most don't add water to their car battery anymore with
sealed batterys.

> An example of tap water total alkalinity is around 50 to 200 PPM and the
> calcium hardness due to calcium salts would range a bit higher, maybe
> double (depending, of course, on the amount of old shallow seas in your
> area fifty to two hundred million years ago).

And how much limestone there is. Lots in some places.

> But distilled water is cheap and rain water is even cheaper, and, in
> fact,
> so is tap water - so since they're all dirt cheap, may as well use the
> rain
> water.

Or distilled water given that its cheap and you dont use much.

> That's how I see it from a reasoned approach, where I'm very familiar
> with
> the scare tactics pool stores try to pull on people when they find
> something, anything, to say "oh that's going to damage your equipment."
>
> Same technique those Indian "Microsoft support tech" try to pull on you
> when _they_ call you and tell you to look in the Event Viewer and all
> those
> errors indicate your computer needs their expert help with ransomware
> addition.

>
> Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades
> a
> car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years?

The battery manufacturers do.

[Rod Speed]

Peter <occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote

> Has anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the
> chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?

It doesn't leach out of the plates, its boiled off when the battery
is still charged when it has been fully charged already.

> Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium,

That's wrong too.

> and
> dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.

There is no equilibrium involved. You presumably
mean that the dissolved stuff spread thruout the pool.

> So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
> lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.

Utterly mangled all over again. Lead doesnt dissolve in
water enough to matter.

> Has anyone thought of that?

Corse the designers of car batterys have.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 03:09:25 +1100, Peter

<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

>> You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
>> battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
>> the battery fluid.
>
> I say from the start that I'm only "reasoning" this out, purely
> theoretically, so while I'm sure adding tap water with high calcium
> carbonates will add "some" impurities.
>
> Your use of "too much" is what bothers me, only because I've never seen a
> single reliable source that tested this for the five year life of a
> battery.
>
> I'm sure someone tested it - but I've never seen those tests, where my
> assumption, without those tests, is sure, "something" will be added, but
> will it make any difference in a twenty-five pound battery designed to
> last
> only five years?
>
>> You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
>> deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled
>> water.
>
> Again I'm only reasoning this out, and I would back off on my rationale
> the
> instant someone shows me batteries being harmed by rain water, which is
> distilled water nowadays, despite the "acid rain" scare tactics of some.
>
> The Indian "Microsoft support techs" tried to pull the same scare tactics
> on me that the pool stores do, where they take a single tiny event and
> turn
> it into the explosion of the Maine in Havana's harbor.
>
>> A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to
>> dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.
>
> A commercial outfit will always follow industry standards if they're
> reputable (most are not, in my humble opinion - most are scammers).
>
> That's why you never believe anything coming out of the mouth of someone
> selling you a service without checking it (for example, they'll tell you
> that you "need" a fluid change when the owners manual will disagree).
>
> They're all scheisters in my book - and I've been sheisted by them so I
> know this for a fact that some are sheisters who can't be trusted.
>
> Back to this topic, how do you know that the "pure" water isn't leaching
> out all the good paste on the plates, now that it's devoid of ions?

Trivial to test that by weighing the battery before and after.

> I'm not asking this as a challenge - as the basic logic is sound.
>
> What I'm looking for is a real answer to the practical question of how
> much
> could it possibly matter in a twenty-five pound battery designed for a
> short life in what turns out to be miserably inhospitable temperature &
> vibration conditions, not to mention discharge recharge redox cycles.

The reality is that modern cars use sealed batterys and no one
adds any water to them anymore.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 03:21:25 +1100, Peter
<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>> It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
>> accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you've
>> hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
>> negative first. Then while you're trying to connect the positive (and
>> sometimes that's not easy. It has a cover or it's tucked away, or you
>> can see it but can't get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
>> engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
>> while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
>> are connected to a good battery. Big spark.
>
> Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the
> last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the
> battery, so that would have to be the negative cable.
>
> However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all
> the
> hydrogen,

That's wrong. You don't get hydrogen when attempting
to start the car with a battery that is flat or can't deliver
the current the starter motor requires to turn the engine
over fast enough.

> so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on
> last (because that's where the spark will be and the donor battery is
> presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing).

> But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first,
> then
> anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched.
>
> So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and
> specifically
> the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by
> another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably
> also on the donor car because it's going to spark.
>

> Which is the correct line of reasoning?
>
> (A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
> likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or

Yes, but thats not because of the hydrogen.

> (B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
> of accidentally shorting the circuit

More chance of accidentally touching part of the body of the donor car
with the positive lead clamp.

& the donor has less outgassing

> Which is more logical?

A, but for a different reason.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 10:20:29 +1100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid>
wrote:

> On 2023-01-18 13:36, micky wrote:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
>> <@.> wrote:
>>
>>> Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
>>>> On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
>>>>> De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
>>>>
>>>> The reverse.
>>>>
>>>
>>> De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
>>>
>>> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
>>>
>>> Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
>>> Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
>>> understanding
>>> them:
>>>
>>> Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
>
> Bullshit, don't try that, you could die.

Nope.

> Why can't we drink distilled water?

> Drinking distilled water creates health problems from the lack of
> essential nutrients

We aren't discussing JUST drinking distilled water,
we are discussing whether it is dangerous to drink it.

> and causes dehydration.

Bullshit. At most it might mean you don't get
enough salt if you drink lots of it and dont eat
anything.

> Drinking distilled water is never a bad idea

That's the opposite of what you just claimed.

> because the body cannot absorb dissolved minerals from water into the
> tissue.Sep 29, 2022

Doesn't need to if you get the salt from fool or salt tablets.

> What Is Distilled Water and Is It Safe to Drink?
> https://www.freshwatersystems.com › blogs › blog › is-...
>
> https://www.freshwatersystems.com/blogs/blog/is-distilled-water-safe-to-drink

Just because some fool claims something...

The reality is that there are no contaminants like that in the
water used to make distilled water for car batterys.

> Careful maintenance is required to ensure purity
> Requires more heat / electrical energy to boil the water.
> Requires large space on the counter

So do deionizers.

> Slower process
>
>
>
> Deionization:
>
> Advantages
>
> Effectively remove dissolved ions in the water.
> Able to regenerate resin beds
> Low-cost investment
>
> Limitation
>
> Do not remove particles or bacteria.

Or contaminants that have the same boiling point as water.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:39:01 +1100, Peter

<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

>>> There's no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home
>>> most of
>>> the time because they can just use this which works wonders for
>>> cleaning.
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/
>>
>> It's a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.
>

> I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago.
> https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/
>
> They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one.
> https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/
>
> I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve attached.
> https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX
>
> It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I
> switched
> to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main valve.
> https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/
>
> I know what you're thinking and I'm sure it's used for that, but for me,
> it's all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are
> clean.
>
> You'll never need toilet paper ever again and you'll be cleaner as a
> result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the first
> place.
>
> How does Covid make you need more TP?

It doesn't but when some fools started buying it up so
they wouldn't be without it, other fools followed suit.

>>> These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.
>>
>> It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
>> has a personal nozzle.
>

> Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn't touch the body.

>
>>
>>> And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
>>> Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the
>>> drain).
>>
>> Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?
>

> How did you know?
>
> I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean.
> https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/
>
> Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
> wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.
>
> Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
> while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it's
> emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a
> re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is).
> https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/
>
> It's really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer at a
> factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
> heat.
>
> For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these.
> https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/
>
> The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but consider
> it
> a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever again.
>
> It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
> wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket
> with
> the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I've kept
> it, I
> guess they're thinking a dead animal lives there or something. :)
>
> I don't think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace along
> with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it's only plastic that I have
> to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.

>
>> A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
>> should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
>> generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
>> Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
>> a battery can hold the charge.
>

> I'm not disagreeing with you as I said I didn't know from the start.
> I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
> At least not yet.
> But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.

>
>> Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
>> positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
>> hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
>> the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the outside
>> world.
>

> I don't think I've had to add water to a car battery in years. I guess
> it's
> done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).

>
>>> Why wouldn't demineralized water demineralize a battery?
>>
>> Because a car battery doesn't work like a pool. Can your pool generate
>> electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?
>

> You got me there.
>
> The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn't matter for sanitation
> where
> I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine level
> at
> least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That's it for sanitation.
>
> For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do you
> have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature) are
> out
> of your hands so it's a game of matching the saturation index with the
> expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the
> concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.
>
> I would think battery chemistry has the same "type" of equilibrium
> constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.
>
> Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:01:45 +1100, Frank <Frank@frank..net> wrote:

> On 1/18/2023 11:18 AM, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
>> Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:
>>> rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

>>>> "Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
>>>> water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.

>>> Has anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the
>>> chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?
>>>

>>> Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and

>>> dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.
>>>

>>> So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
>>> lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber
>>> sheets.
>>>

>>> Has anyone thought of that?

>> Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
>> cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!

>> Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled
>> water, but one gallon goes a long way.

>> Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.
>>
>

> Think those costs are off with two different sources and sizes.
>
> Google sez this:
>
> "However, in general, distilled water is more expensive than deionized
> water. This is because it takes more time and energy to produce
> distilled water, and it also requires special equipment that not all
> companies have."
>
> When I worked in the lab we had a distilled water line to every bench
> but it was replaced by deionized water to save cost.
>
> Been decades since I had a car battery that needed water but I am
> hearing it is better to put distilled or demineralized water in your car
> radiator if needed as minerals are bad there too.

Only if you are in a hard water area or use your own well water.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:54:10 +1100, John Robertson <j...@flippers.com>
wrote:

> On 2023/01/17 8:33 p.m., mike wrote:
>> On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <no....@please.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery
>>> and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
>>> completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
>>> battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
>>> chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
>> Thank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first.
>> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
>> Isn't there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be
>> connected?
>>
>>> The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
>>> last contact point.
>> I'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but
>> didn't
>> that article above say the opposite?
>> They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead
>> car.
>
> The point is to first connect the positive lead to the battery positive,
> and then the negative lead AWAY FROM THE BATTERY by connecting to the
> engine metal. In that order for safety.
>
> After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is AWAY
> FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
> unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
> Perhaps you left the jumpers connected for a few minutes while charging
> the battery which leads to more hydrogen gas

No, because the battery doesn't gas unless it is being charged when
fully charged already and that won't be happening with either battery.

> which makes a spark more and more likely/dangerous as time goes on...

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:53:57 +1100, Peter

<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

> Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
>

>> Therefore, as I have explained before, the highest grade of pure water
>> is deionized water made from distilled water.
>
> What happens to the dissolved carbon dioxide concentration of that
> "highest
> grade of pure water" once you open the jug & leave it for a while at STP?
>
> Henrys Law says it will reach equilibrium based on the partial pressure
> of
> the carbon dioxide in the air.

Its more complicated than that in reality because you wouldnt
leave the top off after you have used some to top up the battery.

> That ionic carbon dioxide dissolves and turns into carbonic acid.
>
> pH about 5.6
>
> It's only "pure water" for an instant.

But isn't impure enough to matter in reality.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

For them, it is a logical consequence of hoarding food in a survival
mode. What goes in, must come out.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 5:39 PM:
> Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
> wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.
>

Medical research says that enlarged prostate is a direct consequence of
male hormone, much like male pattern baldness.

I haven't reached a state that I have problem passing urine but I can
sense that the passage is narrowing because it takes longer to empty the
bladder.

I have been experimenting with all sorts of herbal hair tonics for more
than ten years now. I am not bald yet, but like every man I am thinning
at the crown.

Finally I come back to think about dealing with the male hormone, the
alleged culprit of male pattern baldness and enlarged prostate. I found
out on the internet that soybean and the artificial sweetener "Stevia"
have female hormone effect. So I started using Stevia instead of
Sucralose, and eating a lot of tofu.

https://www.amazon.com/Now-Better-Stevia-Organic-Sweetener/dp/B005F9XFN0

I also make 1% Stevia water mixture as hair tonic to apply in my crown
area. I add 10% in volume isopropyl alcohol mainly as preservative. I
don't know if Stevia can rot in water but I imagine no bacteria can grow
in 10% IPA solution.

For tofu, I buy from Chinese supermarkets soft tofu in plastic buckets
that look like this photo:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0360/7035/9178/products/WeChatImage_20200414153015_500x_a8743a02-1633-437e-ab22-79f27427aa69.jpg

I empty all the water and refill with cold tap water everyday and keep
in the refrigerator.

You might be able to find soft tofu in small plastic flats of 4, or 6
cubes in normal supermarket but Chinese supermarkets also sell tofu in
bucket size plastic containers as shown in the above photo.

My way of eating this tofu is:

Put one cube in a 2 qt batter bowl like this

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Anchor-Hocking-Glass-Mixing-Batter-Bowl-with-Lid-2-Quart/163913120

Cut the tofu in the batter bowl with scissors vertically many times
without holding the tofu by hand. Then add some cooking oil and close
the lid. Put into microwave and nuke it.

The steam can escape from the lid so there is no danger of the steam and
pressure blowing the lid off in the microwave.

Season with anything you like, but I usually eat it with other food in
my meal.

It will take a long time to see results in countering the deleterious
effect of male hormone in man's hair and prostate, but I can tell than I
have less sex drive after two months of using Stevia as sweetener and
adding tofu to my diet. Maybe it is working.

[Rod Speed]

They weren't hoarding food in survival mode.

> What goes in, must come out.

No evidence that more would go in with covid around,
so no need for more toilet paper than usual.

[Rod Speed]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote
> Peter wrote

>> Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
>> wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.

> Medical research says that enlarged prostate is a direct consequence of
> male hormone, much like male pattern baldness.

Doesnt explain why an enlarged prostate shows up in old age
when the male hormone levels have clearly dropped significantly.

> I haven't reached a state that I have problem passing urine

I dont either and am almost into my 80s. Never need to piss at night
either.

> but I can sense that the passage is narrowing because it takes longer to
> empty the bladder.

Don't get any effect like that either.

And my PSA tests are fine.

> I have been experimenting with all sorts of herbal hair tonics for more
> than ten years now.

I haven't bothered and have been visibly balding for more than 50 years

now.

> I am not bald yet, but like every man I am thinning at the crown.

I am much balder than that and it is genetic, my dad started
to thin in his 30 and ended up quite a bit balder than me.

> Finally I come back to think about dealing with the male hormone, the
> alleged culprit of male pattern baldness and enlarged prostate.

Don't buy that claim with enlarged prostate for the reason I listed.

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:01:08 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:04:26 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Peeler]

"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

--
MrTu...@down.the.farm about senile Rodent Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:21:14 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

R Souls addressing the trolling senile Australian cretin:
"Your opinions are unwelcome and worthless. Now fuck off."
MID: <urs8jh59laqeeb0se...@4ax.com>

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:46:51 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <XnsA97071CF43...@85.214.115.223>

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 10:43:04 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

williamwright addressing Rodent Speed:
"This is getting beyond ridiculous now. You're trying to prove black's
white. You're arguing with someone who has been involved with the issues all
his working life when you clearly have no knowledge at all. I think you're
just being a pillock for the sake of it. You clearly don't actually believe
your own words. You must have a very empty life, and a sad embittered soul.
MID: <j08o6b...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:59:03 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Xeno to senile Rodent:
"You're a sad old man Rod, truly sad."
MID: <id04c3...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:29:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

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Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rodent Speed:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID: <g4ihla...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:17:27 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:36:05 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

[Peter W.]

76 (including this one) posts for what is a (or should be) an uncomplicated subject on a pretty basic automotive process. Really?

[David Lesher]

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Rod Speed]

David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote

> You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
> rapidly charging battery.

There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

[Peeler]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 07:41:53 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.

[Scott Lurndal]

Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?

Far more "airy" environment than any automobile engine compartment.

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Have you actually seen a rocket launch? The launch rocket itself is a
gigantic blowtorch which would have blown away or ignited "any H2 that
pools around the launch site". Besides, H2 doesn't "poll around the
launch site" because hydrogen is much lighter than air. Any leaked H2
would have risen up into the heavens.

[Scott Lurndal]

=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
>Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:
>> =?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
>>> Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
>>>> David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
>>>>> rapidly charging battery.
>>>> There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
>>>> is being charged once the engine has started.
>>>>
>>>>> So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
>>>>> and disconnect at the rescue car first.
>>>
>>> I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
>>> the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
>>>
>>> There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
>>> is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
>> Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
>> that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?
>
>
>Have you actually seen a rocket launch?

Yes, and a shuttle landing as a guest at Edwards. Note that the SLS uses
shuttle main engines.


https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35983/what-are-the-sparks-flying-at-the-bottom-of-ssmes-at-the-time-of-launch

"At T minus 10 seconds, the "go for main engine start" command
is issued by the GLS. (The GLS retains the capability to command
main engine stop until just before the SRBs are ignited.) At this
time flares are ignited under the main engines to burn away any
residual gaseous hydrogen that may have collected in the vicinity
of the main engine nozzles. A half second later, the flight
computers order the opening of valves which allow the liquid
hydrogen and oxygen to flow into the engine's turbopumps."

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

The person who wrote that is definitely not educated enough to know that
hydrogen rises and won't stick around at the base of the rocket. That is
the most laughable thing a person can say.

The real reason for the flares shooting at the rocket nozzle is an
insurance policy that in case the internal ignition mechanism failed to
ignite the hydrogen fuel mixture, the flares will guarantee the hydrogen
fuel will be ignited.

Image if the hydrogen fuel mixture failed to ignite internally and there
is no flare at the nozzle, the rocket will expel all the hydrogen fuel
mixture while sitting on the launch pad. Image how big the fireball that
will ensue when it does ignite by static charge or random spark one
minute later.

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 08:28:30 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

> Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
>> David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote
>>
>>> You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
>>> rapidly charging battery.
>>
>> There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
>> is being charged once the engine has started.
>>
>>> So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
>>> and disconnect at the rescue car first.
>
>
> I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
> the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

In spades when the hood is opened to allow the positive jumper lead
to be connected to the battery post.

> There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
> is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.

Not with modern sealed batterys which have a catalyst that recombines
the gases back to water and which have the metal used in the plates
which ensure that no hydrogen is produced when they are charged.

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 09:04:09 +1100, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home>
wrote:

Because you get FAR more gaseous hydrogen in that situation.

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:32:26 +1100, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home>
wrote:

And the important bit is the fact that the fuel is LIQUID HYDROGEN
which can see lots of gaseous hydrogen around the area where the
fuel will be ignited if there is any leak at all.

[Peeler]

"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Xeno]

On 18/1/2023 2:35 pm, mike wrote:
> When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
> not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
> why.
>
> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

Batteries should never be *quickly* recharged. If you flatten your
battery, it is far better to slow charge the battery until it is fully
charged at a rate of 4 - 6 amps - depending on battery size. Using the
alternator to charge a dead flat battery will result in 35-80 amps being
pumped into the battery which will cause overheating and maybe plate
buckling - as well as gassing the battery of course. All this tends to
shorten the battery life.
>
> First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
> Why?

Starters can draw 150 - 500 amps of 12 volt DC current. If the negative
leads aren't making a good connection, the car bumpers might make the
perfect substitute. In the days of metal bumpers, having them weld
themselves together is probably not the best outcome. With plastic
bumpers, not so much of an *electrical* issue but you'll be scuffing the
paint on them.
>
> Then they said positive first.
> Why?
>
> Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
> Why?
>
The negative cable - the last connection to be made - to the dead car
should not be made to the battery terminal. Instead, it should be
connected to a metal part far removed from the battery. Batteries give
off hydrogen gas, especially when they are flat and have been fast
charged by the jump cars alternator. The last cable to be connected is
the one most likely to create sparks. Best not to be near the
potentially gassing battery. Ditto when disconnecting that earth, might
spark, again best not near that potentially gassing battery.
>
> Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
> https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
>
> And how often do you need to add water?
> This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
> Isn't that like every ten days?

If you need to constantly add water, I suggest you check your charge
output. Your battery is being overcharged and is gassing the battery.
Doesn't do a lot for the longevity of the battery either.
>
> And how do you know how much to add?
> They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?

As long as the electrolyte covers the top of the cell plates, all will
be well.
>
> They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
> Isn't it more than that?

Nope. The electrical system of a car is *14 Volts*, not 12V as is
commonly believed. You need that voltage to charge a 12 Volt battery at
its nominal 12.6 Volts. After charging, the battery will show more than
that but it is only a *surface charge* and will quickly dissipate back
to 12.6. What people don't realise is that the battery is *only* for
starting the engine. Whilst ever the engine is running, the car
electrical system is running off the alternator - hence a 14 Volt
system. NB, alternators typically output between 13.8 and 14.2 Volts.
Any less and the battery may not fully charge, any more and you will get
gassing.
>
> They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
> Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

Ask yourself what heating water does to its volume and you'll have
answered that question.
>
> And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

You shorten the life of your battery.

--
Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

[Charles Lucas]

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 9:33:43 PM UTC-6, Xeno wrote:
> On 18/1/2023 2:35 pm, mike wrote:


>
> Starters can draw 150 - 500 amps of 12 volt DC current. If the negative
> leads aren't making a good connection, the car bumpers might make the
> perfect substitute. In the days of metal bumpers, having them weld
> themselves together is probably not the best outcome. With plastic
> bumpers, not so much of an *electrical* issue but you'll be scuffing the
> paint on them.
> >
> > Then they said positive first.
> > Why?
> >

Although the thread is rather lengthy and has been virtually exhausted,
I am going to venture out an explanation here.

Prevents Sparking or Arcing if in the event wires did touch. More energy
passes from the negative (anode) to the positive (cathode) side, due to
the way electrons flow, which create a potential for arcing on the positive
side. So, you go to the "stronger" or more energetic side first, then you
apply either the chassis or earth ground. It also puts less strain on the
stator and rotor on the electric motor in your alternator.

Follow or look up this enclosed link below. It gives details on arcing here.

https://getjerry.com/questions/what-are-some-reasons-why-my-car-battery-sparks-when-connecting-the-charger

> If you need to constantly add water, I suggest you check your charge
> output. Your battery is being overcharged and is gassing the battery.
> Doesn't do a lot for the longevity of the battery either.
> >
> > And how do you know how much to add?
> > They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
>
> As long as the electrolyte covers the top of the cell plates, all will
> be well.
> >

Accordingly, the batteries (depending upon their chemical composition
and make up) have to maintain the correct specific gravity. Most people
do not know about this, but it ties in when a chemical reaction is actually
created through the EMF of the battery during operation drawing from
each of those cells.

> > They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
> > Isn't it more than that?
>
> Nope. The electrical system of a car is *14 Volts*, not 12V as is
> commonly believed. You need that voltage to charge a 12 Volt battery at
> its nominal 12.6 Volts. After charging, the battery will show more than
> that but it is only a *surface charge* and will quickly dissipate back
> to 12.6. What people don't realise is that the battery is *only* for
> starting the engine. Whilst ever the engine is running, the car
> electrical system is running off the alternator - hence a 14 Volt
> system. NB, alternators typically output between 13.8 and 14.2 Volts.

Actually, I heard about 13.5 to 13.8 Volts is common for vehicles
and traditional automobiles with regular gasoline engines. Diesel
uses up to 14.2 volts because
more power is generated through the glow plugs (and with diesel,
the pre-firing). I am not a diesel expert, but that is what I have heard.

> Any less and the battery may not fully charge, any more and you will get
> gassing.
> >
> > They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
> > Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?
>
> Ask yourself what heating water does to its volume and you'll have
> answered that question.
> >
> > And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

The reaction will be slightly different chemically, but not by much, if the
specific gravity remains intact. I try to get distilled because there is by
nature less sediment in the water which reduces wear on the internal
chambers or cells in the battery and less likelihood of calcification.

Good Luck. Hope this helps.

Charles Lucas

[Bob F]

On 1/28/2023 9:19 AM, Charles Lucas wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 9:33:43 PM UTC-6, Xeno wrote:
>> On 18/1/2023 2:35 pm, mike wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Starters can draw 150 - 500 amps of 12 volt DC current. If the negative
>> leads aren't making a good connection, the car bumpers might make the
>> perfect substitute. In the days of metal bumpers, having them weld
>> themselves together is probably not the best outcome. With plastic
>> bumpers, not so much of an *electrical* issue but you'll be scuffing the
>> paint on them.
>>>
>>> Then they said positive first.
>>> Why?
>>>
>
> Although the thread is rather lengthy and has been virtually exhausted,
> I am going to venture out an explanation here.
>
> Prevents Sparking or Arcing if in the event wires did touch. More energy
> passes from the negative (anode) to the positive (cathode) side, due to
> the way electrons flow, which create a potential for arcing on the positive
> side. So, you go to the "stronger" or more energetic side first, then you
> apply either the chassis or earth ground. It also puts less strain on the
> stator and rotor on the electric motor in your alternator.
>
> Follow or look up this enclosed link below. It gives details on arcing here.
>
> https://getjerry.com/questions/what-are-some-reasons-why-my-car-battery-sparks-when-connecting-the-charger

Which says NOTHING to support your silly claim above.

Obviously, every time you connect anything to a car battery, there is a
positive and a negative side to that connection as you do.

Your silly reference claims there is a spark because you left something
on (which on modern cars is always true) but ignores that you are
connecting a charge battery with an uncharged one.

[Charles Lucas]

>
> Your silly reference claims there is a spark because you left something
> on (which on modern cars is always true) but ignores that you are
> connecting a charge battery with an uncharged one.

OK, so I missed that. Here's one that does address the dead battery you
would be connecting the vehicle to. My apologies for missing the dead
one that is not charged. Link is below:

https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

There are similar articles to connecting batteries to capacitors (which is basically what a
battery essentially is), although we're dealing with DC circuits.

Good Luck.

Charles Lucas

[Bob F]

That article tells you to jump start a car, then

"If the battery reads below 12 volts, it’s considered “discharged.”
Driving around can’t revive a battery below 12 volts, and attempting to
do so might damage the alternator."

If that is true, what has worked for practically everyone that has ever
jumped a significantly discharged battery has risked damaging the
alternator of the car used to jump it. Ever hear of that happening
without reversing the cables?

And driving around has worked fine for millions of people with battery
drained before jumping after they left the lights on.

Parts dealers web pages are highly "sales biased", like the one I saw
that claimed that wiper blades should be replaced every 6 months.

[Peter W.]

This is the 94th post on the basics of separating fly-shit from pepper - oops, how to jump-start a vehicle. What we have learned:
a) this venue is proof-positive that common sense is rarer than an ethical politician or a moral evangelical preacher.
b) that this venue exists to give the most impractical, obscure, possibly dangerous advice to the mostly lazy, ignorant or otherwise challenged individuals who appear to look for and cherish such device rather than seeking it for themselves, or reaching out to organizations that actually might know.
c) that if there is an opinion - fact-based or not - there will be an equal-and-opposite opinion - fact-based or not.
d) that the posters in this venue as exemplified by the above should not be exposed to anything sharper than a rubber spoon, more powerful than a D-size battery (large enough to make swallowing it difficult), or requiring reading or understanding directions, written or otherwise.

https://magazine.northeast.aaa.com/daily/life/cars-trucks/jumping-a-car-battery/

Now, how hard was that?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-01-19 02:01, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:54:10 +1100, John Robertson <j...@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2023/01/17 8:33 p.m., mike wrote:
>>> On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <no....@please.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery
>>>> and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
>>>> completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
>>>> battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
>>>> chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
>>>  Thank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first.
>>> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
>>>  Isn't there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be
>>> connected?
>>>
>>>> The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first
>>>> and last contact point.
>>>  I'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but
>>> didn't
>>> that article above say the opposite?
>>> They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead
>>> car.
>>
>> The point is to first connect the positive lead to the battery
>> positive, and then the negative lead AWAY FROM THE BATTERY by
>> connecting to the engine metal. In that order for safety.
>>
>> After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is
>> AWAY FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
>> unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
>> Perhaps you left the jumpers connected for a few minutes while
>> charging the battery which leads to more hydrogen gas
>
> No, because the battery doesn't gas unless it is being charged when
> fully charged already and that won't be happening with either battery.

The "bad" battery will start charging when connected, and there will be
no current limiting.

>
>> which makes a spark more and more likely/dangerous as time goes on...

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Michael Trew]

On 1/30/2023 16:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-01-19 02:01, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:54:10 +1100, John Robertson <j...@flippers.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is
>>> AWAY FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
>>> unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
>>

>> No, because the battery doesn't gas unless it is being charged when
>> fully charged already and that won't be happening with either battery.
>
> The "bad" battery will start charging when connected, and there will be
> no current limiting.

The last time I had a really flat battery, and jumping it didn't work
(perhaps the cables weren't heavy enough gauge), I started it with
another battery installed (cables semi-tight pushed-on)... then with the
alternator keeping it going, I disconnected that battery, and hooked up
the flat battery. You could instantly hear the engine bog down from the
alternator kicking into high-gear. This was a 1960's car, BTW, with a
modern 12v battery. Perhaps this isn't the hottest idea with a new car
using expensive electronics, but it works fine on older rigs with a good
alternator.

[Charles Lucas]

Remember, this can be done only if what this man said is true and/or the
voltage regulation circuitry can handle it. I would try using a load resistor
Run to ground at the base of the circuit to handle the load and to prevent
overload. The resistor should be of adequate size (1/4 watt at so many
mega ohms) to absorb the energy.

Good Luck,

Charles Lucas