Re: Devices to fool the Power Meter

[jhewitt...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-5, VPR wrote:
> Ive seen somewhere before a simple device to plug into the outlets of
> your home that trick the Power Meter and make it look like youve used
> less power..
>
> anybody know where to get em or how to build it?
>
> --
> remove no_spam_ when replying

Yes, electronic hobbyists used to call these devices "boxes", there were bunches and depending on the function, the code name would have a "color" in front of it, A "Blue Box" would tell AT&T or Ma-Bell that you would hang up before the call is answered, a "Black Boxes", Red, blue, Green, just about any color of the rainbow.....and yes, they "DID" work, but in this day of digital perfection, all those "Boxes" are paperweights in the modern world, they just don't work anymore, the companies who were getting hacked figured out why these boxes worked and fixed the issues, the only place devices like these work now are backwards countries whose "modern" technology is 30+ years old. Sorry

[peterw...@gmail.com]

You responded to a 22 year old post.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Adrian Caspersz]

On 16/06/2020 16:24, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> You responded to a 22 year old post.
>

The OP's jail sentence has probably expired, he might be able to follow
up on the wisdom of his bill dodging investigation?

--
Adrian C

[Fox's Mercantile]

Facebook is flooded with ads for "The electric companies
hate these"
Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.

Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
+R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
(on the load side) is high enough.

But, capacitors big enough to accomplish that are the size
of a 5 gallon Jerry can.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

[Phil Allison]

Fox's Mercantile bullshitted:

========================

>
> Facebook is flooded with ads for "The electric companies
> hate these"
> Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
> supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
> Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.
>
> Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
> +R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
> down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
> (on the load side) is high enough.
>

** That is not true.

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

> But, capacitors big enough to accomplish that are the size
> of a 5 gallon Jerry can.
>

** Bollocks.

A 150uF cap draws 11 amps rms from a 240V 50Hz outlet.

A polypropylene, 250VAC rated cap of that value would be the size of a large coffee jar.

Problem with such cap on the AC supply is you cannot switch it on - the massive inrush surge will trip a 16 amp thermal magnetic breaker.


..... Phil

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 6/16/20 5:38 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

[Chris Jones]

On 17/06/2020 08:38, Phil Allison wrote:
> Fox's Mercantile bullshitted:
>
> ========================
>>
>> Facebook is flooded with ads for "The electric companies
>> hate these"
>> Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
>> supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
>> Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.
>>
>> Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
>> +R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
>> down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
>> (on the load side) is high enough.
>>
>
> ** That is not true.
>
> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
>

True, however some recent meters use Rogowski coils, where the analogue
to digital converter receives a signal that is proportional to the rate
of change of current, which is then integrated in digital computation to
get the current waveform. The thing the meter designers did not guard
against is very sharp steps or spikes in current, leading to a very high
output from the Rogowski coil, that can rail the ADC, which then gives a
wrong current waveform.

There was a paper a few years ago where some dutch researchers showed a
load consisting of some compact fluorescent lamps connected to a dimmer
could produce power readings many times higher than the true power
consumption, when measured with some meters based on Rogowski coils.

If I recall correctly, the electricity retailers dismissed it as an
unrepresentative situation unlikely to occur in real use and did not
want to do anything about it.

In my opinion the researchers made a simple error. They should have
found a different load that drew a spike of current at a different phase
relative to the mains voltage waveform, to rail the ADC at a different
time, such that the power reading would be artificially low, or even
negative. If they had demonstrated artificially low rather than
artificially high readings in their paper, then the meters would have
been redesigned and replaced as a matter of urgency.

Whilst a contrived load that causes the meter reading to be artificially
low (by drawing a spike of current and railing the current ADC at the
right time) may be illegal to sell, if nothing else due to it failing
conducted EMC regulations, I suspect that there may still be a
significant informal market for such a device.

[Phil Allison]

Fox's Mercantile is such a boring fuckwit wrote:

-----------------------------------------

Phil Allison wrote:
>>
> > Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
>
> Sigh...
>
> Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
> the voltage coil and the current coil.
>
> Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
> speed at which the dial rotates.
>

** It makes it less and less.

A purely capacitive (or inductive) load produces NO movement of the disk.

Please FOAD dickwad.

[Cydrome Leader]

Fox's Mercantile <jda...@att.net> wrote:
> On 6/16/20 5:38 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
>> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
>
> Sigh...
>
> Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
> the voltage coil and the current coil.
>
> Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
> speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption, but this is
not going to be a concern in a house, unless you leave terribly
inefficient things like 1/3rd horepower induction motors running all day
long.

[Phil Allison]

Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
> Fox's Mercantile

> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> >> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
> >
> > Sigh...
> >
> > Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
> > the voltage coil and the current coil.
> >
> > Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
> > speed at which the dial rotates.
>
> which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
>
> You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
> with it.

>

** Yep.

> Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,

** Oops, no it don't.

It simply lowers you RMS current draw.

VERY worthwhile in situations were you are running out of amp capacity for the installed circuits.


..... Phil

[Chris Jones]

On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>
>
>
> =====================
>> Fox's Mercantile
>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>>>> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
>>>
>>> Sigh...
>>>
>>> Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
>>> the voltage coil and the current coil.
>>>
>>> Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
>>> speed at which the dial rotates.
>>
>> which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
>>
>> You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
>> with it.
>
>>
> ** Yep.
>
>> Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
>
>
> ** Oops, no it don't.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don't pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)

[Tim R]

I checked some household appliances (lamps, tv, laptops) with one of those Kill-a-Watt meters some time back.

They register both watts and power factor. Power factor was often very low, in the .6 range. CFLs and LEDs were both very low.

Does that affect the accuracy of the watt reading?

If I understand correctly, I pay for actual watts, but wire capacity has to include the extra. Presumably code requires sufficient headroom.

Kill-a-Watt meters are designed badly, unless they've improved them recently. With bifocals you can only read them in one orientation and often that is not how you plug them in.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 6/17/20 9:45 AM, Tim R wrote:
> Kill-a-Watt meters are designed badly, unless they've
> improved them recently. With bifocals you can only read
> them in one orientation and often that is not how you
> plug them in.

I hate to be Captain Obvious here, but that's what short
extension cords are for.

[Cydrome Leader]

Phil Allison <palli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>
>
>
> =====================
>> Fox's Mercantile
>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>> >> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
>> >
>> > Sigh...
>> >
>> > Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
>> > the voltage coil and the current coil.
>> >
>> > Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
>> > speed at which the dial rotates.
>>
>> which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
>>
>> You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
>> with it.
>
>>
> ** Yep.
>
>> Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
>
>
> ** Oops, no it don't.
>
> It simply lowers you RMS current draw.

Can you explain I^2 R for me ?

[Phil Allison]

Tim R wrote:

=============

> I checked some household appliances (lamps, tv, laptops) with one of those Kill-a-Watt meters some time back.
>
> They register both watts and power factor. Power factor was often very low, in the .6 range. CFLs and LEDs were both very low.
>

** Most electroinc device have PFs in the 0.5 to 0.6 range - normal is not "very low". Very low is like 0.1.

> Does that affect the accuracy of the watt reading?

** Nope.

The PF of domestic electrical / electronics including lamps is irrelevant.

It may become relevant in commercial use, when large number of items are used at the same time - like hundreds of CFLs in an office building.

Then it limits just how many lamps can be on the same circuit.

.... Phil


..... Phil

[Phil Allison]

Cydrome Leader wrote:

-----------------------

>
> >
> > It simply lowers you RMS current draw.
>
> Can you explain I^2 R for me ?
>

** That must seem like a very clever Q to you.

But I am not biting.


..... Phil

[Cydrome Leader]

Tim R <timot...@aol.com> wrote:
> I checked some household appliances (lamps, tv, laptops) with one of those Kill-a-Watt meters some time back.
>
> They register both watts and power factor. Power factor was often very
> low, in the .6 range. CFLs and LEDs were both very low.
>
> Does that affect the accuracy of the watt reading?

possibly- I've not run noises tests on a kill-a-watt meter to see how
easily they are confused. I did just get a Vector Viz digital wattmeter,
circa 1986 and even a load like an electronic ballast shop light confuses
its voltage readings. It might need to be serviced though.

> If I understand correctly, I pay for actual watts, but wire capacity has
> to include the extra. Presumably code requires sufficient headroom.

The general rule in the US is a circuuit cannot have a steady load of to
more than 80% of the rating. That is a 15 amp circuit off your breaker
should not run anything that needs more than 12 amps continious.

> Kill-a-Watt meters are designed badly, unless they've improved them
> recently. With bifocals you can only read them in one orientation and
> often that is not how you plug them in.

They're that terrible, contrast does drop if you use them somewhere hot
though.

[Nife Sima]

Not to mention the Rainbow Boxes had nothing to do with power meters.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

I remember that very strong magnets were once supposed to slow meters
down so I borrowed a very strong ceramic magnet from work to try. I
put it next to the meter and it didn't have any visible effect at all.
Steve

--
http://www.npsnn.com

[peterw...@gmail.com]

Power utilities are not unsophisticated, at least around here. We installed mini-splits in early January covering two floors of a 3-story, 5,000 s.f. center-hall colonial build in 1890, and substantially enlarged in 1928. In mid-May, the utility (PECO) sent a gentleman around to check both our electric and our gas meters. Our electric bills had dropped by a few percent, but still dropped, and our gas consumption had dropped by 2/3. The gentleman took one look at the outside compressors, and made an 'all-is-well' notation. It is now mid-June, has been quite hot, but our electric bill is now the one down by 2/3 from last year, with our gas being nearly the same as we still cook, use hot water and dry clothes.

Moral of the story - if your established (11 years for us) use pattern changes suddenly and significantly, the Utility *will* notice.

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Kill-A-Watt?

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 6/20/20 11:28 AM, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> Kill-A-Watt?
>

Try and keep up with the adults.
<http://www.p3international.com/products/p4400.html>

[Cydrome Leader]

Just sit back and take some notes then. It sounds like you're forgetting
some stuff.

[Phil Allison]

Cydrome Leader wrote:

------------------
> Phil Allison

> >> >
> >> > It simply lowers you RMS current draw.
> >>
> >> Can you explain I^2 R for me ?

> >
> > ** That must seem like a very clever Q to you.
> >
> > But I am not biting.
>
> Just sit back and take some notes then.

** LOL

> It sounds like you're forgetting
> some stuff.

** Wot a stupid fucking troll.

Piss off.

[Jeff Urban]

>** Wot a stupid fucking troll.

They are out there buddy. As much aas you may hate me I do not hatree you. In fact your harsh shit and all that reminds me of my family.

Speaking of which, my Uncle and cousin gave it a try. He was a tech specialist at Big Blue, my cousin was definitely into it, an fact built his own stereo. So they had no gas, all electric house.

They bought these huge ass rectifiers to put on the furnace to try to magnetise the poles in the meter.

Now that I think of it, there is no way to know if it worked. They would have to have two meters and see if they read different.

Now this Kill-a-watt thing, it goes against the laws of physics, I can see some things but not that. I even told you all about those generators, it took me a year to figure out how they work.

Now just a box ? Well in audiophile land there is a box that is supposed to make almost any stereo sound better. Testimonials are enough to be considerable. But I figured it out. They use coils. The first coil takes the load off the amp at high frequencies, that makes it perform better. There is probably a little but of attenuation but it is tolerable I guess.

It's not for me, blow your speakers with rock and roll. (that's a song, look it up) I want the most direct connection I can get. On my good speaker I got 12 gu. wire.

But the thing is that I understand what this thing does and it is quite novel, but I do not want one.

The best amp I got is totaled. I should send a picture, it had been in a fire and flood, the regulator board it broken in like four places. But I got it working and though it is not my most powerful amp it sounds the best. Rated 65 a channel it is built like amps with 200 a channel. Pioneer SX-850. The only things I heard better were Marantz and Kenwood, and very few Kenwoods. I want sound so sharp it cuts like a knife.

So anyway, this power meter thing. There is not much cheating them. in the US the way it is set up you can flip your meter upside down and it will run backwards. But if they catch you it is a felony.

Electricity is not the cheapest thing in the world, that is why we cook with gas. Electric cooking sucks anyway.

So people might think that for an electric stove maybe some inductance. Nope. Sure that will lower the power consumption but power is what make the heat. Less power less heat.

The point is nothing is free. Those generators, a million bucks, do you pay that much in electric bills in seven years ?

Enough, this tangent is too much...

[peterw...@gmail.com]

You two really deserve each other! But, please take it elsewhere. Otherwise, to paraphrase Beatrice Campbell, you *will* scare the horses.

[Jeff Urban]

>But, please take it elsewhere

When did you buy the place ?

[Cydrome Leader]

slow down there buddy, you might trip a circuit breaker there.

[Cydrome Leader]

Jeff Urban <jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>** Wot a stupid fucking troll.
>
> They are out there buddy. As much aas you may hate me I do not hatree you. In fact your harsh shit and all that reminds me of my family.
>
> Speaking of which, my Uncle and cousin gave it a try. He was a tech specialist at Big Blue, my cousin was definitely into it, an fact built his own stereo. So they had no gas, all electric house.
>
> They bought these huge ass rectifiers to put on the furnace to try to magnetise the poles in the meter.
>
> Now that I think of it, there is no way to know if it worked. They would have to have two meters and see if they read different.
>
> Now this Kill-a-watt thing, it goes against the laws of physics, I can
> see some things but not that. I even told you all about those
> generators, it took me a year to figure out how they work.

Why? It's like a $30 device and a pretty darn neat one for that price too.
They seem to have nailed it the first time too. I'm not seeing new
revisions of the device. There's somebody real clever over at P3.

> Now just a box ? Well in audiophile land there is a box that is supposed to make almost any stereo sound better. Testimonials are enough to be considerable. But I figured it out. They use coils. The first coil takes the load off the amp at high frequencies, that makes it perform better. There is probably a little but of attenuation but it is tolerable I guess.
>
> It's not for me, blow your speakers with rock and roll. (that's a song, look it up) I want the most direct connection I can get. On my good speaker I got 12 gu. wire.
>
> But the thing is that I understand what this thing does and it is quite novel, but I do not want one.
>
> The best amp I got is totaled. I should send a picture, it had been in a fire and flood, the regulator board it broken in like four places. But I got it working and though it is not my most powerful amp it sounds the best. Rated 65 a channel it is built like amps with 200 a channel. Pioneer SX-850. The only things I heard better were Marantz and Kenwood, and very few Kenwoods. I want sound so sharp it cuts like a knife.
>
> So anyway, this power meter thing. There is not much cheating them. in
> the US the way it is set up you can flip your meter upside down and it
> will run backwards. But if they catch you it is a felony.

I've seen plenty of meters installed backwards. It doesn't confused the
power company in Chicago at all. They can do the math, and will even leave
it and put the seal back on the collar of the glass too.

[bud--]

On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
> On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
>> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> =====================
>>> Fox's Mercantile
>>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
>>>>
>>>> Sigh...
>>>>
>>>> Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
>>>> the voltage coil and the current coil.
>>>>
>>>> Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
>>>> speed at which the dial rotates.
>>>
>>> which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
>>>
>>> You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
>>> with it.
>>
>>>
>>   **  Yep.
>>
>>> Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
>>
>>
>> ** Oops, no it don't.

Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.

>
> It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
> the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
> unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
> load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
> meter but since you don't pay for that, there is no financial incentive
> for the consumer to fix it.)
>

As far as have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line

1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.
3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.

---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR 'penalty'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.

[Cydrome Leader]

bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:
> On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
>> On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
>>> Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =====================
>>>> Fox's Mercantile
>>>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sigh...
>>>>>
>>>>> Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
>>>>> the voltage coil and the current coil.
>>>>>
>>>>> Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
>>>>> speed at which the dial rotates.
>>>>
>>>> which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
>>>>
>>>> You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
>>>> with it.
>>>
>>>>

>>> ?? **?? Yep.

>>>
>>>> Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Oops, no it don't.
>
> Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
> the Watts, which is a scam.

Didn't know ohm's law just doens't apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.

The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.

>> It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
>> the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
>> unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
>> load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
>> meter but since you don't pay for that, there is no financial incentive
>> for the consumer to fix it.)
>>
>
> As far as have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
> connected across the line
>
> 1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
> do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
> saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
> 2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
> and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
> the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
> negligible length = negligible saving.

The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don't hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.

> 3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
> motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
> produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.

Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - "which is a
scam", but now increased current somehow increases power. I'm so lost
here.

> ---------------------
> I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
> the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
> kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR 'penalty'
> charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
> real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
> scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
> residential.

I don't have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.

Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you'd benefit from properly correcting the
"empty" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn't
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.

I don't dispute gimmicky boxes will probably not save you any money, but
to pretend that resistive losses don't exist doesn't jive at all with
reality and why branch circuits in your home even have a current rating in
the first place. Think about it. I assure you it's not the stronger
magnetic fields from an overloaded circuit with a coin stuffed behind a
fuse or an overloaded skinny extension cord that that cause your house to
catch on fire.

[peterw...@gmail.com]

Has anyone here ever actually looked into what utility-grade "capacitor banks" do, why they are installed and where they are installed?

It is pretty simple, and pretty basic. No, they do not exist to 'cheat the meter'. Yes, they do save money, no, they do not save power. How those things happen together is where the 'magic' resides. But it ain't nohow magic.

[bud--]

>> As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently

>> connected across the line
>>
>> 1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
>> do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
>> saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
>> 2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
>> and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
>> the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
>> negligible length = negligible saving.
>
> The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don't hard wire into your
> sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
> inductive loads.
>
>
>
>> 3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
>> motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
>> produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.
>
> Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - "which is a
> scam", but now increased current somehow increases power. I'm so lost
> here.
>

I thought it was rather obvious.

You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.

There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).

I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.

Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.

>> ---------------------
>> I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
>> the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
>> kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR 'penalty'
>> charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
>> real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
>> scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
>> residential.
>
> I don't have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
> 24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
> every month.
>
> Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
> terribly inefficient, and you'd benefit from properly correcting the
> "empty" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn't
> unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
> 120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
> also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
> that branch.

The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
"ampacity".

And as someone wrote, for a "continuous" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.

And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws "too many"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.

[bud--]

On 6/26/2020 5:07 AM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> Has anyone here ever actually looked into what utility-grade "capacitor banks" do, why they are installed and where they are installed?
>
> It is pretty simple, and pretty basic. No, they do not exist to 'cheat the meter'. Yes, they do save money, no, they do not save power. How those things happen together is where the 'magic' resides. But it ain't nohow magic.
>

Assume this is about locations, primarily industrial, where the utility
meters kVARh. PF correction can save a lot of money (pay for itself)
because the utility has a $ignificant "penalty" for kVAR 'use'. If the
plant corrects power factor the utility doesn't have to (I see racks of
utility PF correction capacitors often). The penalty encourages "magic".
If utilities don't correct PF they have added losses from wire
resistance (#3 above) and generator capacity is reduced.

If a motor is switched off and on the capacitors can be on the motor
side of the motor control.
I have seen rather large banks of capacitors in large plants. That
works when the plant runs full time. I expect they would be
automatically or manually disconnected if the plant was to shut down.

The most interesting installation used large open frame motors running
compressors, which could be unloaded. The motors were synchronous. If
over-excited they act as capacitors. Control equipment matched the
correction with what was needed.

[Cydrome Leader]

If installed correctly it can help. You have to install it by the load.

Same concept as switchable power factgor correction banks installed at a
factory. It has to be near the load to reduce the distace you're pulling
empty current, lowering line voltage and regulation and wasting a bit of
power.

[Jeff Urban]

Alright fuck it. There is one way.

You "tap" the power for milliseconds but at a very high peak current which is maybe the same wattage but you have done it so fast the meter misses some of it.

That is the ONLY way to really beat it and I am not sure it works on non-mechanical meters.

You take your 300 amp pulse to feed your shit, but not every cycle. Maybe every tenth cycle. You have heard of capacitors. You cannot use 6Hz 300 amp pulses very well so you have to go to DC and let it just charge at that cycle. The more you use the more you save. However you have to generate your own sine wave. It depends on you doing that efficiently. The only way I see is with some serious class D amps, and even those are not going to be small ass Icepowers.

And then for all the money you spend doing that you save 10% tops. So if your bill is $200 a month you save twenty bucks. /so buy all this shit for a few hundred if you're lucky, I think you are lucky to get it all for a grand, and then your time.

These are not on Amazon. Building your own, fine. But if you do that, to be able to design and build it twenty bucks an hour is the bare minimum.

So you want to put over a grand into saving twenty bucks a month. and then the gizmo might break and there is only one person who can fix it.

I am pretty sure I mentioned my Uncle and cousin experimenting with this. But then we have this other dude. All he did was lay a wire across his property and picked up the elecromagnetism from the high tension wires.

Now this of course became a transformer of sorts. But he got something out of it. In fact the more current he puled the more he helped the efficiency of the power company lines.

They busted him. Any time you gain any utility not paying the rate is a felony. It doesn't matter if you are helping them, it is the gain. The gain is what will cost you a few years and your gun and voting rights. By any method.

Now get this, if they can bust you for picking up a magnetic field they put up on your property then they can bust you for a crystal radio. Powered by radio waves, you got them for free, you going to the joint. Look it up - theft of utilities.

Like those things that give you even years of electricity (for an average house, not a foundry) for a million bucks. It simply is not worth it.

I can rewire a meter box so it only reads half what you use. It would take years for them to find out. I could make it read nothing, but that is stupid, they know better.

And that is reflected in watt-hour meter design. They thought of every possible way to cheat and addressed it. What would you do ?

There are a few things they did not think of but I am not going into that.

[peterw...@gmail.com]

Let me put it this way: It depends on the Utility. Here in PECO territory, they are commonly installed for about any commercial building (including residential buildings) over about 100,000 square feet that purchases "primary" power, and going back a far way in time.

[bud--]

The major reason PF correction capacitors are installed is to avoid the
large 'penalty' charged by utilities for VAR 'use' when the utility
meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction
caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.

It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels
or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.

And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors.
Considerations include
motor size
percent of time motor runs
circuit length
motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging

Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the
service.

It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors.
I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.

[Cydrome Leader]

Agreed. One larger switchable bank at a plant will be cheaper and cover
more possibilities than trying to connect capacitor banks at all motors.

> I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.

Yup. The largest motor I can think of in a house might be the compressor
in a split airconditioning system. Those always have dedicated runs of
power so they're more like an industrial schenario where wiring is run as
needed, dedicated and properly sized to the intended load in the first
place.

[Cydrome Leader]

We had a mini-mill in the north side of Chicago until recently. They'd do
the melts at night for 1) better electric prices and 2) it was the only
time of day their capacity needs could be met, even in an otherwise
industrial area. I never saw the electric meters, but the powerlines
feeding the complex had lots of instrument transfomers installed, way more
than you'd usually see. Even after the building were completely
demolished there was a mountain of power factor capacitor piled up in the
gated off, otherwise vacant lot.

> I can rewire a meter box so it only reads half what you use. It would
> take years for them to find out. I could make it read nothing, but that
> is stupid, they know better.
>
> And that is reflected in watt-hour meter design. They thought of every
> possible way to cheat and addressed it. What would you do ?
>
> There are a few things they did not think of but I am not going into
> that.

Let's hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity per
month with complex devices.

[Jeff Urban]

>Let's hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.

Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?

If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works. Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn't.

What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an audio amp.

Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a hell of alot more.

So my question just became - Why bother ?

[bud--]

On 7/5/2020 2:56 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
>> Let's hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.
>
>

> What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass.

Not obvious to me it would fool a mechanical meter. The current pulse
would put a mechanical impulse into the disc and it would likely move on
the impulse for longer than the pulse.

Back in the good old days the physics lab had a "ballistic
galvanometer". It had a mirror instead of a pointer, and reflected a
light beam on a scale. You could put a current pulse into the meter and
it would continue to swing for long after the pulse.

The utility would be very displeased by the pulse scheme because they
have to supply the pulse, which is much higher than the average power use.

[Cydrome Leader]

Jeff Urban <jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Let's hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.
>
> Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?
>
> If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month
> it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works.
> Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn't.
>
> What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old
> mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally
> electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an
> audio amp.

Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter. Magnemotive
forces don't go away just because you're quick.

Clipping a digital meter sounds more possibly, unless your spikes confused
them and they over charge you.

I had my electric bills go down after the old spinning meter was smashed
by a meteor, and the company installed a digital meter. I suspect the drag
magnets fade over time and the meters speed up.

> Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a
> Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a
> hell of alot more.
>
> So my question just became - Why bother ?

Was just asking for a friend. I don't actually care much about my electric
bill. If I want lights on, or to plug something in, I'm just going to do
it. I won't be falling down the stairs because the lights were on a motion
detector. I really hate stuff like that.

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

On June 16, 2020 4:24PM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> You responded to a 22 year old post.
>
> Solar panels can be your own home windows and you can dump the power back to the service. So the need to be sneaky may not be there, now.

-- https://goingsolar.com/windows-double-as-solar-panels/#:~:text=Solar%20windows%20convert%20sunlight%20that,spectrum%20coming%20through%20the%20glass.

[peterw...@gmail.com]

Solar windows - enough, per panel, to charge two (2) cell phones each day.

- If they face south.
- If the day is sunny.
- At a cost of +/- US$182 per square foot, US$2,000 per square meter.

Phone Charge: 6 watts (max) per hour.
Assume 4 hours to charge a phone.
24 watts per charge.
48 (use 50) for two phones.
In twenty (20) days, those windows will generate 1KWH of power, at the national average of US$0.13/KWH.

Really?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Making the payback: A very brief 843 years.

[Jeff Urban]

>Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter

Because of inertia. The current moves a wheel in there if you hit it fast enough it cannot accelerate fast enough. It is up to you to store the energy though, how you gonna do that ? I know of no battery that can take a 500 amp charge for a few milliseconds and then deliver it out as needed. Then depending on what kind of panel you got you might have to get ahead of the main breaker to even do that. Then you might blow their fuses outside.

It is not easy to steal power, in fact any effective means is usually more trouble than it's worth.

[Michael Terrell]

Ask Marge Schott. She was in trouble after CG&E discovered the current transformers had been shunted at Riverfront Stadium.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 7/13/20 6:58 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
> Ask Marge Schott. She was in trouble after CG&E discovered
> the current transformers had been shunted at Riverfront Stadium.

I'm sure it worked well.
Until she got caught.
I'm pretty sure that's when the "more trouble than it's worth"
kicked in.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

[Michael Terrell]

Apparently it was done just before the stadium was opened. She was fined for all the stolen power, plus interest by the utility.

[Clifford Heath]

On 14/7/20 9:38 am, Jeff Urban wrote:
>> Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter
>
>
> Because of inertia. The current moves a wheel in there if you hit it fast enough it cannot accelerate fast enough.

It can always accelerate fast enough. A localised short (microseconds or
so) sharp pulse just deforms the metal briefly, storing the energy in
spring action. As long as the metal is elastic, that energy will spread
to a uniform acceleration.

When you put a ceramic cup down on a stone benchtop, it comes to rest in
the distance and time for which the surfaces are *deformed*. Even when
they're heavy, dense and brittle. That's true of any impact. Same deal
with an inertial pulse delivered by electromagnetism.

CH

[bilou]

On 29/06/2020 07:19, Jeff Urban wrote:
> Alright fuck it. There is one way.
>
> You "tap" the power for milliseconds but at a very high peak current which is maybe the same wattage but you have done it so fast the meter misses some of it.
>
> That is the ONLY way to really beat it and I am not sure it works on non-mechanical meters.

That is false.
Short pulses are used to drive power tools at low speed.
Now if you use short pulses you need BIG currents and the losses
in wiring resistance increase a lot.
Inductance too start to be problematic.
Think of when you drive a nail in wood with a hammer.

[Cydrome Leader]

Jeff Urban <jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter
>
>
> Because of inertia. The current moves a wheel in there if you hit it
> fast enough it cannot accelerate fast enough. It is up to you to store
> the energy though, how you gonna do that ? I know of no battery that can
> take a 500 amp charge for a few milliseconds and then deliver it out as
> needed. Then depending on what kind of panel you got you might have to
> get ahead of the main breaker to even do that. Then you might blow their
> fuses outside.

power meters don't measure accelaration. They measure the number of times
the aluminum disc turns. Forces applied to the disc make it spin. If they
are enough to overcome the drag of turning, it will move.

> It is not easy to steal power, in fact any effective means is usually
> more trouble than it's worth.

agreed.