What is that whiteish stuff on bad batteries (ruins stuff)?

[MNMikeW]

What, chemically, is that whiteish crumbly powder on bad batteries?

We all have seen it, and most of the time you can just brush it off, but
I have it on a device deep inside that I can't get a brush on without
breaking stuff.

I'd like to use a solvent (I already tried water but I want to do a
better job) that dissolves the stuff so knowing the chemistry might help.

Do you have any idea what the chemical composition of that stuff is?

[Thane]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 19:42:16 +0000, MNMikeW wrote:


>
> Do you have any idea what the chemical composition of that stuff is?

It's a mixture of potassium hydroxide and potassium carbonate.

Check this article.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/questions/question/1000207/

Thane

[John Robertson]

Potassium Hydroxide - an alkaline (Alkaline batteries after all). Wash
off with a mild solution (50/50) of white vinegar and water, scrub, and
rinse with clean water carefully.

http://flippers.com/battery.html

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[Stormin Mormon]

What kind of device that won't let you
get near it?

Caig DeOxit might help. I got some for
a 1/8 phono jack, and surprise surprise!
Seems to help a lot. Might help with
battery corrosion, also.

Ebay for about $15 shipped. Well worth it,
in my case.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

[Rachael Madcow]

On 8/13/2015 5:50 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

>
> Caig DeOxit might help. I got some for
> a 1/8 phono jack, and surprise surprise!
> Seems to help a lot. Might help with
> battery corrosion, also.
>

Caig DeOxit is the electronic technicians holy water.

[MNMikeW]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:52:36 -0500, Thane wrote:

> It's a mixture of potassium hydroxide and potassium carbonate.
>
> Check this article.
>
> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/questions/question/1000207/

That was an interesting article, which also said that it could be a
mixture of ammonium chloride and manganese dioxide in the comments.

It seems that lemon juice or vinnegar (ie weak acids) are the way to
clean it up chemically, based on that article.

[MNMikeW]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 12:52:50 -0700, John Robertson wrote:

> Potassium Hydroxide - an alkaline (Alkaline batteries after all). Wash
> off with a mild solution (50/50) of white vinegar and water, scrub, and
> rinse with clean water carefully.
>
> http://flippers.com/battery.html

That article was nice, but I'm always suspicious when someone suggests
idiotic things such as "pure water" (goes with "kosher salt" in my book,
or with "organic eggs", etc.).

[MNMikeW]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:50:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> Caig DeOxit might help.

The MSDS is one of the most generic I have ever seen.
http://www.xerox.com/downloads/usa/en/i/i5008.pdf

No telling what it's made of.

[MNMikeW]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 19:54:43 -0400, Rachael Madcow wrote:

> Caig DeOxit is the electronic technicians holy water.

The MSDS didn't say what it's made of.
Any idea?

[MNMikeW]

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:50:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> What kind of device that won't let you get near it?

The AA battery was in a deep slot where you can't get a finger or brush
easily in there to clean the alkali, but you can get a liquid (such as
vinegar in there).

[John Robertson]

Oh, fine, then de-ionized distilled water if you want to get picky ;-).

It rarely makes much difference, at least for those of us who have rain
water as our supply (mountain runoff). If you have well water then the
alkalies in it could exacerbate the problem...

Consider that you have thin copper traces on your PCBs and they are made
by etching a coating of copper film with an alkaline solution to
generate the traces needed...you thus want to neutralize any alkaline
remaining (so no more etching occurs) and a mild acid is pretty good at
that. CLR works in a pinch...

[John Robertson]

You want to let it soak in for a while, and using a wooden skewer or
similar to dislodge any caked material is good...

Then rinse well with water (pure/distilled if possible, rain water is
not bad, well water may not be good).

[Wes]

Yah, organic eggs, ROFLMAO!

Chickens fed GMO food (marinated in glyphosate) and tons of antibiotics are much better for your gut microbiome and autoimmune system.
You'll be fine, just take your pharmaceuticals.

[Phil Hobbs]

It's a mild organic acid dissolved in naptha, or something close to that.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Steven Bornfeld]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

> It's a mild organic acid dissolved in naptha, or something close to
> that.

I don't think I have ever heard of an "organic acid".
Any examples of mild organic acids you know of?

[Tim R]

Depending on the size of the slot, you might be able to use BBs.

I do that when I need to get the inside of a jug clean and can't get a brush inside. Pour in a handful of BBs and a little water and dish detergent, and swirl it around.

The standard BBs are steel, you can get 300 or so for $1.

[Stormin Mormon]

Citric, or ascorbic.

[Edmund J. Burke]

"MNMikeW" wrote in message news:mqiruo$n6d$1...@news.mixmin.net...

I believe it is faerie cum.

[Thane]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 04:31:50 +0000, MNMikeW wrote:

>
> That was an interesting article, which also said that it could be a
> mixture of ammonium chloride and manganese dioxide in the comments.
>
> It seems that lemon juice or vinnegar (ie weak acids) are the way to
> clean it up chemically, based on that article.

I've used a Qtip dipped in tap water to remove the most of these
deposits. Vinegar should be used cautiously as acids may attack the
metals used in the battery contacts in the device you're trying to clean
up.

Thane

[Mayayana]

| That article was nice, but I'm always suspicious when someone suggests
| idiotic things such as "pure water" (goes with "kosher salt" in my book,
| or with "organic eggs", etc.).

That's quite a lot to lump into one category.
Are you sure your salt doesn't have "yellow
prussiate of soda"? (cyanide salt) Do you
really think it makes no difference what
livestock eat? Where would you draw that line?
If you don't care about such things then what
is food?

There's a difference between being a ninny and
being attentive. But I would agree about "pure
water". That sounds like the menu item made
from "Baby Yukon Gold tubers, fresh dairy milk,
genuine Himalayan ghee and a trace of finest
Italian parsley" -- mashed potatoes. :)

[Steven Bornfeld]

John Robertson wrote:

> You want to let it soak in for a while, and using a wooden skewer or
> similar to dislodge any caked material is good...

Would urine work?

[Stormin Mormon]

On 8/14/2015 10:02 AM, Thane wrote:
> I've used a Qtip dipped in tap water to remove the most of these
> deposits. Vinegar should be used cautiously as acids may attack the
> metals used in the battery contacts in the device you're trying to clean
> up.
>
> Thane
>

Vinegar is a mild acid, not much danger to
metals. Rinse after, to remove the dissolved
ionic solids.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 04:32:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<ho...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 8/14/2015 12:38 AM, MNMikeW wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:50:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>>
>>> Caig DeOxit might help.
>>
>> The MSDS is one of the most generic I have ever seen.
>> http://www.xerox.com/downloads/usa/en/i/i5008.pdf
>> No telling what it's made of.

>It's a mild organic acid dissolved in naptha, or something close to that.
>Cheers
>Phil Hobbs

Before DioxIT, it was Cramolin. Both concoctions had an assortment of
formulations and a checkered history. Both have also been cloned at
various times. The acid involved is oleic acid, which is food safe
and is used in a variety of cosmetic potions and nostrums:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleic_acid>
<http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=oleic+acid>
However, there were some problems. If it wasn't wiped off, it would
slowly attack copper and brass contacts. This was deemed a bad thing
and the oleic acid was removed from the formulations leaving only
mineral oil and no weak acid. Cramolin MSDS:
<http://store.caig.com/core/media/media.nl?id=808&c=ACCT113328&h=3f8d8512c835e9a69f64&whence=>
The MSDS for Caig DeoxIT is listed as a trade secret concoction but is
generally presumed to be the same as Cramolin. If this is correct,
then using DeoxIT to "clean" battery contacts just coats the contacts
with a layer of mineral oil.

Caig has a large selection of cleaners and lubes, many of which
contain some manner of unspecified oxide remover available. That
would be quite suitable if we were removing an oxide. Assuming an
alkaline battery, the white residue is mostly potassium carbonate
(K2CO3) and some potassium hydroxide (KOH) electrolyte. Just about
any acidic cleaner will remove that. I use 409 household cleaner and
smear it around with an acid brush. You can tell it's working by the
foam and bubbles produced. When the white crud has been removed, just
wipe it clean. Both chemicals are soluble in water, so you don't
really need an acid, but I like to see the foam and bubbles. After
that, smearing the contacts and PCB with mineral oil (DeoxIT) does
nothing useful becaue the contacts don't need a lube job.

The history of Cramolin, DeoxIT, ProGold, etc.
<http://www.siber-sonic.com/electronics/caig.html>

The topic appears quite often in the antique radio forums:
<http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/search.php>
Plug "DeOxit" into the search box.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John-Del]

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 10:03:01 AM UTC-4, Thane wrote:

>
> I've used a Qtip dipped in tap water to remove the most of these
> deposits.

Yep. Nothing removes battery spooze faster than plain old water.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Only in the morning:
<http://www.chemcraft.net/acidph2.html>
In a pH balanced body. urine is slightly acid in the morning,
(pH = 6.5 - 7.0) generally becoming more alkaline (pH = 7.5 - 8.0)
by evening in healthy people primarily because no food or beverages
are consumed while sleeping. Whereas, during the day the body
buffers the pH of the food and beverages consumed by releasing
electrolytes and the pH level goes up. This process allows the
kidneys to begin the elimination process slowly.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 22:15:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:32:12 +0000 (UTC), Steven Bornfeld
><dentalt...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>John Robertson wrote:
>>
>>> You want to let it soak in for a while, and using a wooden skewer or
>>> similar to dislodge any caked material is good...
>>
>>Would urine work?

>Only in the morning:
><http://www.chemcraft.net/acidph2.html>
> In a pH balanced body. urine is slightly acid in the morning,
> (pH = 6.5 - 7.0) generally becoming more alkaline (pH = 7.5 - 8.0)
> by evening in healthy people primarily because no food or beverages
> are consumed while sleeping. Whereas, during the day the body
> buffers the pH of the food and beverages consumed by releasing
> electrolytes and the pH level goes up. This process allows the
> kidneys to begin the elimination process slowly.

Also, if you're a meat eater or cannibal:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine#pH>
A diet which is high in protein from meat and dairy, as
well as alcohol consumption can reduce urine pH, whilst potassium
and organic acids such as from diets high in fruit and vegetables
can increase the pH and make it more alkaline.

So, if you're going to clean up your leaky battery residue with urine,
do it in the morning, after a steak breakfast.

[Phil Hobbs]

On 8/14/2015 8:05 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:

Stearic acid, oleic acid,....

[MJC]

In article <55CF6184...@electrooptical.net>,
ho...@electrooptical.net says...
>
> Stearic acid, oleic acid,....

deoxyribonucleic acid... (Not sure about the "mild", though!)

Mike.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 8/13/2015 3:42 PM, MNMikeW wrote:

> What, chemically, is that whiteish crumbly powder on bad batteries?
>
> We all have seen it, and most of the time you can just brush it off, but
> I have it on a device deep inside that I can't get a brush on without
> breaking stuff.
>
> I'd like to use a solvent (I already tried water but I want to do a
> better job) that dissolves the stuff so knowing the chemistry might help.
>
> Do you have any idea what the chemical composition of that stuff is?
>

Yesterday I stopped to offer a jump start for a fellow.
Turns out that his positive battery calmp (automobile)
had corroded off, due to battery acid. In this case,
I'd say the problem was lead suplphate, and some copper
sulphate. Real shame. Sunday about 5 PJM, in a parking
lot at a shopping center. Myself and the security guy
both tried jumping, and no luck. Fortunately, he had a
cell phone. Hope he was able to get his adult son (talking
to him on phone) to bring out a new cable. I suspect a
new cable would have done the job.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Simple Green ? organic acids are in your tummy working at the Iowa state fair pork chops.

The white stuff may harden to the point where it needs filing or grinding off if dissimilar materials are in contact within a salty environment.

Battery and ground contact areas eg terminals, clamps, frame connection areas are coated with a thin film of

https://www.google.com/search?q=non+corrosiding+silicone+grease&biw=1103&bih=620&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIjbapgZuxxwIViRk-Ch29zAcT#tbm=isch&q=dialectric+gease

the grease conducts electricity but not ions in transfer: no white build up

[avag...@gmail.com]

AE6KS back to Jiffy Lube !

or today: https://www.google.com/search?q=non+corrosiding+silicone+grease&biw=1103&bih=620&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIjbapgZuxxwIViRk-Ch29zAcT#tbm=isch&q=crc+electronics+cleaner

versatile.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Wal sells bags o brushes for $5 in Arts n Crafts. I bought one today of various types needing actual paint the holes brushes and brushes for PCblaster.

here's a normal pack http://www.walmart.com/ip/Red-Sable-Artist-Brush-Set-12-Pkg/32761202

PCb's nozzle tube needs siliconing then work the nozzle cap left and right with thumb while holding brushing against nozzle.

Allied sells real mil spec cleaners if your Collins recently surfaced from storage in 1955.

[gregz]

Oleic acid. Stuff found in olive oil. Oleic acid and naphtha, popular
electronic cleaner. Yo can mix with alcohol. Deoxit is a formulation
replacing cramolins formula.

Greg

[gregz]

I was thinking products like 409 were alkaline. Some of the more potent
forms, castrol super clean, and greased lightning, etch glass.

From what I know, the current cramolin, still available, sold as
contaclean, is a cleaner, and must be washed away after cleaning. The can I
have got real sticky around nozzle, and the can seems to be eating itself.
I think someone compared spectral components of deoxit vs cramolin, and
were different. Wished I knew more without always comming up with my own
findings on web search.

I usually just wipe clean with water, then lube with something like CRC
2-26.

Greg

[avag...@gmail.com]

WIKI- 'Certain types of RTV release acetic acid during the curing process, and this can attack solder joints, causing the solder to detach from the copper wire.'

Jiffy was acetic cleaner, as the CRC with plus silicone left on, not as the CRC

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:00:30 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>I was thinking products like 409 were alkaline. Some of the more potent
>forms, castrol super clean, and greased lightning, etch glass.

According to the MSDS, pH = 9-11.5
<https://www.thecloroxcompany.com/downloads/msds/409products/formula409antibacterialkitchenallpurposecleaner-lemonfreshjw2014-08-10.pdf>
There's something in the formulation of 409 that reacts with something
in the white crud to produce foam and fizz, but offhand, I can't tell
what it might be. Potassium carbonate (K2CO3) and potassium hydroxide
(KOH) are both bases, which should not react with a high pH cleaner.
Digging through the possible K2CO3 reactions:
<http://www.allreactions.com/index.php/group-1a/potassium-k/potassium-carbonate-k2co3>
<http://www.allreactions.com/index.php/group-1a/potassium-k/potassium-hydroxide-koh>
None of the reactions with water produce a gas unless heated.
Everything else is a reaction with an acid. I'm missing something
here.

>From what I know, the current cramolin, still available, sold as
>contaclean, is a cleaner, and must be washed away after cleaning. The can I
>have got real sticky around nozzle, and the can seems to be eating itself.
>I think someone compared spectral components of deoxit vs cramolin, and
>were different. Wished I knew more without always comming up with my own
>findings on web search.

If it must be wiped off, then it probably contains a mild acid (used
as an oxide remover), which might corrode the contacts if left in
place. My ancient tiny bottle of Cramolin Red also mentions cleaning.
If the can is corroding, it's probably from the acid.

>I usually just wipe clean with water, then lube with something like CRC
>2-26.

I'm having a bit of a problem with the term "cleaner". We started
with something to clean off the white residue from a leaking battery.
Then, a "cleaner" for removing the oxide from electrical contacts. And
now end up with a "lubricant" for battery contacts that don't move and
probably don't need lubrication. Worse, the description reads much
like a WD-40 clone, where the purpose is only to displace water.
<http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=02005>
"Plastic safe lubricant, penetrant and corrosion inhibitor
that helps prevent electrical malfunctions caused by water
penetration, humidity, condensation or corrosion. Restores
resistance values and helps stop current leakage."

Want to try an experiment? Find some phosphorescent powder or tracer
additive. Mix it with the "lube". Apply to the battery contacts.
Then use the device for a while. Inspect with a UV flashlight and I
think you'll find the "lube" everywhere EXCEPT around the contact
points. If true, one could probably do as well for battery contact
protection with a giant blob of grease, as in automotive battery
terminals.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>Battery and ground contact areas eg terminals, clamps, frame connection areas are coated with a thin film of
>
>https://www.google.com/search?q=non+corrosiding+silicone+grease&biw=1103&bih=620&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIjbapgZuxxwIViRk-Ch29zAcT#tbm=isch&q=dialectric+gease

Shorter URL's are better. Learn to edit Googlisms:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=dielectric+gease>

Incidentally, I like your mis-spelling of dielectric:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic>
Karl Marx should have used some in his writings to help his theories
hold water.

>the grease conducts electricity but not ions in transfer: no white build up

Rubbish. Dielectric grease, is by definition an insulator.
<http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-dielectric-grease.htm>
"Dielectric grease is a non-conductive, silicone-based grease
that's designed to seal out moisture and prevent corrosion
on electrical connectors. It also disrupts the flow of
electrical current, which makes it good for lubricating and
sealing the rubber parts of electrical connectors. It's
commonly used in automotive spark plug wires, recreational
and utility vehicles, and electrical systems in aircraft."

If you grease mating surfaces of electrical connections, you're not
going to get a decent connection. Given enough current and a little
dirt to get hot, you can also produce a small explosion[1].


[1]. In college, I had to deal with a few Persian foreign exchange
engineering students. These were mostly the sons of government
ministers and very important people under Shah Pavlavi. Few had any
mechanical skills in a society where getting one's hands dirty was
unbecoming of the uppper castes. Some, brought their servants.

Among the various classes was a semester of metalurgy and welding,
which included operating a spot welder. In order to pass the class,
one of the Persian students took to following me around and mimicking
everything that I did. I decided that he needed to be taught a
lesson. I hid my work and as expected, he asked me what to do next. I
suggested that he grease his sheet metal pieces before spot welding
and I directed him to the can of grease I had thoughtfully provided. I
was almost out the door when the grease exploded in the spot welder
and produced a rather wide black horizontal scorch line across his
clean white shirt. I dissapeared for a day while friends and faculty
tried to convince his servant that killing me was not a good idea.

Yes, grease is good, but not in the current flow.

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:20:56 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>

> >Battery and ground contact areas eg terminals, clamps, frame connection areas are coated with a thin film of [silicone grease]

> suggested that he grease his sheet metal pieces before spot welding

> ... the grease exploded in the spot welder

> and produced a rather wide black horizontal scorch line across his
> clean white shirt.

> Yes, grease is good, but not in the current flow.

There's formulations of grease that don't do that, of course; silicone takes high
temperature, and some greases are intended for electrical conduction in thin
films (they 'break down' at millivolts, and don't even get hot).
<http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.185/.f>
I've used this grease on rotating connections, at 40A it's just like
a solid wire connection.

[avag...@gmail.com]

????????????????????

HUERISM ? Brandt returns ...

but the spelling is prob from the laytest spell checker: GoogleFool

this is the 3rd or 5th time around for dialectics


the dialectic grease conducts electricity...smear some on your audio fuse....but does not conduct iconic transfers to and from dissimilar metals inhibiting serious corrosion.

Prob a Coaled Rechoirrment for the standard hose box main junkshuns.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:01:51 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Looks like aluminum dust, copper dust, graphite, and/or quartz(???).
No clue if it's graphite spheres or flakes. Ignoring quartz, the
others are not particularly great conductors because of the lack of
sufficient contact area between particles. It's much like the
conductive PCB paint used to "print" conductive traces. Even using
silver, it's not very conductive. Graphite flakes are tolerable
because the flakes overlap, but still produces high resistance
connections.

One your rotating joint connection, did you use brushes or a
commutator to make the connection? If so, the path of least
resistance is through these connections, not through the grease.
Grease will certainly help, but it works by burying any small arcing
under a layer of grease, which blocks oxygen to the arc, and therefore
reduces pitting and burning.

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 4:35:13 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:01:51 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:20:56 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >Battery and ground contact areas eg terminals, clamps, frame connection areas are coated with a thin film of [silicone grease]
> >
> >> suggested that he grease his sheet metal pieces before spot welding
> >> ... the grease exploded in the spot welder

> >> Yes, grease is good, but not in the current flow.

> >There's formulations of grease that don't do that, of course; silicone takes high
> >temperature, and some greases are intended for electrical conduction in thin
> >films (they 'break down' at millivolts, and don't even get hot).
> ><http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.185/.f>
> >I've used this grease on rotating connections, at 40A it's just like
> >a solid wire connection.


> Looks like aluminum dust, copper dust, graphite, and/or quartz(???).

Can't be, it's transparent. It's based on a semiconductive component, which is nonlinear:
insulating in bulk, but breaks down (in conductivity, not chemical nature) in
thin films under electrical stress. US Patent #4696832 has more info.

> One your rotating joint connection, did you use brushes or a
> commutator to make the connection? If so, the path of least
> resistance is through these connections, not through the grease.

It was bronze rubbing on a steel element; the grease keeps the steel from oxidizing
while increasing the effective contact area.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:58:50 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 4:35:13 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:01:51 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:20:56 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Battery and ground contact areas eg terminals, clamps, frame connection areas are coated with a thin film of [silicone grease]
>> >
>> >> suggested that he grease his sheet metal pieces before spot welding
>> >> ... the grease exploded in the spot welder
>
>> >> Yes, grease is good, but not in the current flow.

>> >There's formulations of grease that don't do that, of course; silicone takes high
>> >temperature, and some greases are intended for electrical conduction in thin
>> >films (they 'break down' at millivolts, and don't even get hot).
>> ><http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.185/.f>
>> >I've used this grease on rotating connections, at 40A it's just like
>> >a solid wire connection.

>> Looks like aluminum dust, copper dust, graphite, and/or quartz(???).

>Can't be, it's transparent. It's based on a semiconductive component, which is nonlinear:
>insulating in bulk, but breaks down (in conductivity, not chemical nature) in
>thin films under electrical stress. US Patent #4696832 has more info.

Never heard of that stuff, but if it's as you describe, it should be
quite useful. How conductive, I don't know. The patent isn't very
helpful:
<http://www.google.com/patents/US4696832>
"The contact stabilization material comprises at least one
block polymer or co-polymer of polyoxypropylene together
with polyoxyethylene."
It then points to a French patent:
<http://www.google.com/patents/EP0144399A1?cl=en>
which has a better explanation. I'll RTFM over the weeken.

I got the Caig L260 and M260 info you linked came from:
<http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.18/category.1049/.f>
(Sorry I forgot to include the link. Kinda crazy today). Notice the
mention of metallic filler. Is Caig L260 and M260 the right grease or
should I be looking for something else?

>> One your rotating joint connection, did you use brushes or a
>> commutator to make the connection? If so, the path of least
>> resistance is through these connections, not through the grease.

>It was bronze rubbing on a steel element; the grease keeps the steel from oxidizing
>while increasing the effective contact area.

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 7:02:20 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:58:50 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> >> >... some greases are intended for electrical conduction in thin

> >> >films (they 'break down' at millivolts, and don't even get hot).
> >> ><http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.185/.f>
> >> >I've used this grease on rotating connections, at 40A it's just like
> >> >a solid wire connection.

> >> Looks like aluminum dust, copper dust, graphite, and/or quartz(???).

> >Can't be, it's transparent. It's based on a semiconductive component, which is nonlinear:
> >insulating in bulk, but breaks down (in conductivity, not chemical nature) in
> >thin films under electrical stress. US Patent #4696832 has more info.
>
> Never heard of that stuff, but if it's as you describe, it should be
> quite useful. How conductive, I don't know. The patent isn't very
> helpful:
> <http://www.google.com/patents/US4696832>

Yeah, there's a high information cost... and there's more boosterism than
chemical physics in the sales lit. As to 'how conductive', the L260 variant
that I used doesn't have conductive particles, so it only conducts in thin films,
like rubbing parts would have around contact points. Because it is nonlinear,
'conductivity' is undefined (and the rubbing of bumpy surfaces mean
the film thickness is likewise indefinite). Variants on this lubricant
are recommended for slide potentiometers, I see.

The admixture of conductive particles would make a grease conduct electricity,
but that would be unsafe in electrical panels (and the intended uses include busbars).
It would decalibrate potentiometers, too. Because metallic particles would
constitute dissimilar metals in my mechanism, I didn't want to use such a grease.

[avag...@gmail.com]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMM

use the artist's paintbrush not the zerkgun ....

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:20:09 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Yeah, there's a high information cost... and there's more boosterism than
>chemical physics in the sales lit. As to 'how conductive', the L260 variant
>that I used doesn't have conductive particles, so it only conducts in thin films,
>like rubbing parts would have around contact points. Because it is nonlinear,
>'conductivity' is undefined (and the rubbing of bumpy surfaces mean
>the film thickness is likewise indefinite). Variants on this lubricant
>are recommended for slide potentiometers, I see.
>
>The admixture of conductive particles would make a grease conduct electricity,
>but that would be unsafe in electrical panels (and the intended uses include busbars).
>It would decalibrate potentiometers, too. Because metallic particles would
>constitute dissimilar metals in my mechanism, I didn't want to use such a grease.

If the stuff works as you describe, then it should change conductivity
from a bad insulator to a marginal conductor when pressure is applied.
That got my interest because I have an application for a cheap
pressure sensing system, that will work with rollers and gears. In
theory, I could monitor the conductivity between meshed gears, which
would give me an indication of the applied pressure or changes in
pressure.

However, I don't think it works the way you suggest[1]. The grease
simply prevents surface oxidation and displaces electrolytes to reduce
galavanic corrosion if the mating surfaces are dissimilar meatals.
Doping it with conductive particles also helps reduce galvanic
corrosion. When I read the vague and misleading promotional
literature from that point of view, the claims seems to make sense.

On the other foot, there are specialized greases that allegedly work
the way you describe. I found a hint at:
<https://www.linkedin.com/grp/post/1786018-215513373>
but could not find any specifics. I'll dig more later. I also
haven't had time to read through the patents yet but I'll get to it
this weekend.


[1] increased pressure => thin film => increased conductivity

[Dave Platt]

In article <4pn7tadlnqfpausst...@4ax.com>,

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

>>Can't be, it's transparent. It's based on a semiconductive component, which is nonlinear:
>>insulating in bulk, but breaks down (in conductivity, not chemical nature) in
>>thin films under electrical stress. US Patent #4696832 has more info.
>
>Never heard of that stuff, but if it's as you describe, it should be
>quite useful. How conductive, I don't know.

This material is better known as "Stabilant 22" (often used as
"Stabilant 22A", diluted in alcohol). Years ago, Stabilant 22A was
remarketed to the audiophile community (in small syringes, probably
with a huge mark-up) under the name "Tweek".

I've used it for quite a few years. It definitely seems to help
maintain electrical connections between contacts. Quite useful for
(e.g.) finger contacts on PCI cards... it has restored reliable
operation for cards which were intermittent, when a simple "unplug,
clean, and re-plug" cycling didn't help.

[gregz]

I still have cramolin copper grease. I never used it on anything. Seems
like it had little conductivity with test leads.

Greg